Proven Not Perfect
Proven Not Perfect
Navigating Boundaries and Mental Health: Insights with Dr. Shairi Turner for Personal Growth and Parenting in the Digital Age
- The episode delves into the intricate subject of boundaries, emphasizing their role in fostering mental well-being and emotional freedom. By exploring personal experiences, generational impacts, and practical strategies, we guide listeners to understand and implement healthy boundaries in their lives.
• Boundaries and their importance for mental health
• The impact of upbringing and trauma on boundary-setting
• Current youth mental health crisis and its connection to boundaries
• Role of communication in parenting for boundary enforcement
• Practical steps for defining and asserting personal boundaries
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Shairi R. Turner MD, MPH, is an internist and pediatrician with expertise in trauma-informed practices. She serves as the Chief Health Officer at Crisis Text Line, leading the organization’s external policy, advocacy, and partnership initiatives related to mental health. Crisis Text Line is a national not-for-profit organization that provides free, 24/7 text-based mental health support and crisis intervention in English and Spanish. In this role, she is fervently committed to addressing the youth mental health epidemic.
Dr. Turner has been a featured mental health expert at numerous conferences, top-tier and regional news programs, media interviews, and podcasts. Most notably, NBC’s Meet the Press, TIME Scripps News, Good Day DC, CNN, iHeart Radio Podcast with Michelle Williams, Good Day Seattle, HuffPost, to name a few. She also was a co-Host of NIKE’s acclaimed No Off Season podcast.
Drive, Ambition, Doing, Leading, Creating... all good until we forget about our own self-care. This Village of All-Stars pays it forward with transparency about misses and celebration in winning. We cover many topics and keep it 100. We are Proven Not Perfect™️
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Hey, proven Not Perfect. I hope that you're well. I hope that you're launching this new year with inspired thoughts and feeling like you are exactly where you're supposed to be. Yeah, and sometimes that can be a rude awakening as you are going through something a little tough. Sometimes that can be pushing yourself to accept the joy that you're feeling in your heart and in your life, despite the craziness in the world around us. It can be any of those things, all of those things, but just know that you are exactly where you are supposed to be, all right. So that is what I wanted to share with you. So today, now that you are here, we're going to talk about boundaries.
Speaker 1:Boundaries is a big word Um, okay, it's a longer word, ish, um, but that was not the point. It's a big word in that, as you really start to unpack it and think about boundaries and think about your command of boundaries, your understanding of your own boundaries and how you manage and navigate that for your own personal wellbeing, it's a huge topic. It's a huge thing to think about. So that's why I call it a big word. So today I have Dr Shairi Turner. She is a medical doctor, an MPH. She's an internist and a pediatrician with an expertise in trauma-informed practices. She currently serves as the chief health officer at Crisis Text Line, which is a leading organization, external policy advocacy and partnership initiatives related to mental health. Crisis Text Line is a national nonprofit organization that provides free, 24-7, text-based mental health support and crisis intervention in both English and Spanish. So I'm telling you, this is a resource y'all. In this role, dr Shirey is fervently committed to addressing the youth mental health epidemic. We talk about that, we unpack that here. So listen she her background. Not only is she very accomplished academically, going to some high tier universities, but also she's very accomplished professionally, serving in both the public and private sector. Um, for four years she was actually the chief medical director for the Florida department of juvenile justice. Um, in that role, she was responsible for the oversight of health, mental health and substance abuse services. So the credentials just keep coming. They keep coming. You can hear her read about her, see her featured in NBC, meet the press. She's been on Time Scripps News, good Day DC. Cnn. Iheartradio Podcast with Michelle Williams, good Day Seattle, huffpost, whoo chow. I'm telling you she brings all of the credentials to host us in a safe place and in a great conversation to explore our own understanding and command of boundaries in our life. So, without further ado, here is my podcast, proven Not Perfect with Dr Shirey Turner.
Speaker 1:The Doctor is in the House. Here we go. Proven Not Perfect. The Doctor is in the House, and I'm not saying that lightly. I'm here today with Dr Shirey Turner, who is very quickly becoming one of the favorite people in my world, is very quickly becoming one of the favorite people in my world. We had the privilege to get all the titles together at the same time in this illustrious, wonderful leadership opportunity in the great state of Florida at the moment. But that doesn't even begin to scratch the surface around just the depth of where our conversations can go. So in having those privately with her, I decided that it made a whole lot of sense to tap into her wisdom, her experience and her thought and her thought provoking way. Right, that's one of the things that's really excited me about our friendship, your thought provoking way. So, without further ado, the doctor is in is what we're calling this segment. Dr Shirey Turner, welcome to Proven Not Perfect.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Chantra. I feel the same. I feel that we have been brought here together specifically for this moment. We are the right people, the right time, the right place, the right moment.
Speaker 1:Girl, all of that Okay. So I wrote this book called Proven, not Perfect, and in the book I actually was led to define the seven truths that sort of resonate for me as a corporate executive, mommy, wife, christian and so many other things. Right, and for each of my episodes I try to anchor on one of the truths right, and really that inspires me to say I've got to talk to this person. And fortitude is one that sprung just literally off the page as I thought about several of the conversations, the private conversations that you and I are starting to have, my definition of fortitude. I'll go ahead and read and I'd love to get your thoughts on what you think Fortitude being still in a situation, acknowledging that the situation is big and I am bigger, seeing the hedge of protection all around myself, feeling the wings of refuge gently brushing my shoulder, seeing light up ahead and staying strong as it draws near. Wow. So when I read that to you, what do you hear?
Speaker 2:I hear courage, I hear strength, I hear, I hear boundaries.
Speaker 1:Oh, there's that word Boundaries.
Speaker 2:I just hear you know like fortitude is about. You know, in its simplest form can be about courage in the face of adversity. But what I love about your definition is that it's so much richer, right, it gives visual something for us to think about visually when we think about fortitude. And I love that you've chosen that for this episode because I think it really will resonate, because now you know, if not any other time is a time that is asking us to have courage in the face of adversity.
Speaker 1:Oh, girl, oh, so true, okay. So there's so much we got to get into. Let's start with you. Yes, when you were a little girl. Um, let's start with you, yes, when you were a little girl. Who did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker 2:Ooh. So for me, as a child, I'm the the daughter of um people who were integral to black theater. So my my dad an actor, director, theater, you know, broadway, off Broadway, schools, colleges, just anywhere that he could perfect his craft and continue to, to create his art Right. And then my mother is a writer, a publisher. She too taught in theater and directed, so both of them were deeply embedded in Black theater. You know, back when, you know, even before Denzel, and my dad taught Denzel.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, he literally taught Denzel.
Speaker 2:He did, he did. I put a pin on that girl First crush.
Speaker 1:First crush.
Speaker 2:I might have been two, but first crush.
Speaker 2:Right, and Samuel L Jackson. It was all of those folks that were up and coming in black theater, but you know, those are the names that we recognize, but they were. There were so many more, right, who were the next tier, that really worked to create Black theater and make it a movement, right? So, black to your question, to your point, I went in a different direction. I went towards science and medicine and I don't think I, you know, in retrospect, did I have a, you know, my pediatrician was, you know, in my space, right, because living in Black theater, that's what I saw during the week, at night, in the weekend and on the weekends. So when I decided like healing and helping was my superpower, could be my superpower, I had to look to who was in that space, right? So I didn't have parents who were doctors, so my pediatrician actually was, as I think about it, the first role model who showed, showed me what healing and taking care of someone else actually looked like. Wow.
Speaker 1:Wow. So, first of all, they do say that the actor's creative mind is very similar to the science mind, right? Isn't that sort of something that we've advanced to understand? So how did your parents shape your decision or not on the direction that you would follow for your advanced training and your education? And did you start right in the field, in the area that you thought you would, or was your journey a little bit different than you anticipated?
Speaker 2:or was your journey a little bit different than you anticipated? Yeah, great question. So they were always huge supporters, very proud parents. Initially I had wanted to become a veterinarian. I loved animals. I worked in a veterinary hospital from 13 to 17. Actually, was bitten pretty severely by a dog and that caused me to kind of reassess what, reevaluate my life choice. But they were always very supportive, proud. You know I would be the first physician in the family, as many of us. When we take on those firsts, right, the aspirations of the ancestors are subliminally placed on your shoulders, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, ooh, talk about it.
Speaker 2:The stories of you know, your grandmother wanted to be a surgeon. Your grandfather wanted to be a doctor. Your aunt made it as far as becoming a nurse, right, a doctor. Your aunt made it as far as becoming a nurse, right. So there's all this that gets levied on your child, where you know the interest was there, obviously, but it's, I think, for many of us, those who are our generation, right, those external drivers become internalized and take on a life of their own Right.
Speaker 1:So I have to. I have to ask you to unpack that a little bit, because I think that's very interesting. Because I do think that, generationally speaking, while many of us were drawn to an area and a scope of interest and certainly supported as long as the formula meant going to college, getting a degree and choosing a profession, the more I talked to my peer group, especially my sisters of color, there was an extra weight and pressure that we walked into spaces with because, whether it was a direct message or whether it was a subliminal message, it was understood that it was a privilege to be a part of a small percent that can say that they were able to do these things and for that reason we've represented everybody.
Speaker 2:Did you ever hear messages like that, which is not a word that I use frequently, but immovability, right, like there was an immovability about our destiny, right, because our parents oftentimes I mean some of us, you know have parents who were physicians and you know, in those professions. But many of us did not have that opportunity, even though parents were well equipped. I mean, my grandmother was so talented in the artistic area, wrote poems, played the piano, wrote books, right, was just prolific. But her father told her education is important, but we only have a certain amount of resources and we are going to expend those resources on the sons and not the daughters.
Speaker 2:So my grandmother raised her five children and went back to college in her sixth Right, so education being paramount, so self-taught. And then went back to college to get her bachelor's and then went back to college to get her bachelor's. And, similarly, my mom had gone to college, got her master's, raised her family and then went and got her PhD in her seventies Right, so it's right, education was the pathway to whatever was next for our family, right, so it became-.
Speaker 1:Do we feel the same way now with our kids, with your kids?
Speaker 2:So I think we, I feel that the role that education played in my life was a big fork in the road, determinant. So I went to Stanford. I had, I loved it. So Yale and Stanford were the two choices, the two places. I applied in the two choices and, um, I loved Stanford. So, to go from the Bronx to California, the sun, the, the buildings, all of those things, and the, the really robust black community that existed and still exists at Stanford University. But for me I do feel like education, college, that university choice, was a huge piece of the puzzle, right. So my parents scraped together and I had scholarships so that I could go to a private school in New York City so that I could have that opportunity, all the opportunity, right, that they could think would come. They were going to put it into education so, where we didn't take big, elaborate vacations because we couldn't afford to. They were artists, right, but education. So I went to Stanford, my brother went to Stanford, that was where that was the North Star, still Right. So now our generation, where we've been able to use education and go further and have and be fortunate enough to have those resources for our children, for our children.
Speaker 2:My premise, my husband's premise was always find the school that is right for you Don't let anything that and find the profession that is right for you. Not let external mandates, spoken or unspoken from us or others, dictate where you go to find that next space, because it's most important that you are happy at your university. Right, we know that young people today, for a myriad of reasons, are in a mental health crisis. Right, we have a mental health epidemic. Suicide amongst young people of color is raging right. So what we said to our children was find the school that will make you a better person. So when you come out at the very worst, you are neutral to where you were when you entered hopefully not version of yourself. That that school has, as my husband likes to say, goes through you right, like you've taken it all in, like you're not just powering through the school, but it has gone through you. And when you make the right choice, the school can actually do that and you on the other side is going to be a very different you than the one that started out. So one of the things we said was you must leave, you know the city that you grew up in, because growth happens outside of that space and then that you choose the school that's going to go through you and is going to make you, help you evolve in your journey, and not choose a school because of external reasons. Right that at the end of that time there you are less than you were when you entered, because it was not the right fit for you. And I think that's still hard for our peers.
Speaker 2:Right, where we're coming out of high tier universities, many times that we look to you know what is the next our child has to do, that next best thing? Well, sometimes that next best thing these are Gen Z. Right, we know what that next best thing is and if that comes into friction with the parent, the parent overrides. Right? We as parents have that power, that privilege. We control the purse strings. Right, we're funding this and when we say we're funding your university, you must go here, that does not equate to finding the best match for that child. Or you might have been at this large Ivy League school or large state school. Your child is wired differently. Their experiences have been different. You as their parent are different than your parents. So they may be looking for that liberal art experience. They may be looking for that HBCU experience. I can't even tell you how many of my Stanford classmates have children at Howard right.
Speaker 2:And other HBCUs right, Because we see, like we see what today is and what today means and what school then mandates for our children and we give them that choice.
Speaker 1:Man, there's so much in there that you said I mean I think I'll. I'll just pick a couple of things and and would love to get your thoughts. First, I definitely want to talk about the increase of mental illness and, um, the choice to just give up life, um, you know, just in general, um all kids, uh, and for sure, um African-American babies in the United States. And then also want to talk a little bit more about the times and being clear that some of the choices that we make are largely informed by the experiences that we have had and we are having right, and that's true for us, it's true for our children, and making space for that can be freeing.
Speaker 2:So you pick which direction we go first, because they are both like on. My mind existed in me from early on when I started in med school was around mental health and ultimately found my way to a space of advocating for mental health and working towards supporting the mental health of young people, dealing with this suicide epidemic that's happening. So I want to definitely touch on that because we are losing children of color at rates. I mean when we can say suicide rate for children who are five to 11, Black children who are five to 11 have a suicide rate that's twice that of their white.
Speaker 1:Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, how does suicide even happen?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I heard you say age five.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Age five.
Speaker 2:Yes, suicide is now the number two leading cause of death for two age groups that have now collapsed, because it's the second cause of death 10 to 24. Suicide is the second leading cause of death. As you might imagine, in young people is accidents and injuries right. That's sort of been the thing for a while, but now that like suicide has emerged and that a five-year-old can conceptualize the end of life and taking one's own life, doesn't even really seem feasible. No, right, like I can't say that at the age of five or six or seven I understood what suicide was, right.
Speaker 1:But much less death Right.
Speaker 2:At age five.
Speaker 1:You're so curious about this unfolding of a life that the. You know the trauma comes when, when and if you are forced to deal with loss at that early age.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I think we also now have to to move out of our sort of space of privilege and understand that young people are young young people five, six, seven are in homes where the generational trauma is real right, and my passion around mental health really ties to childhood trauma as well, where we know now that physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, parents who are incarcerated, parents with mental illness, parents who separate or loss of through death or divorce, all of those things impact the brain development of young children, starting in utero, all the way through. You know brain development goes into the early 20s. All of those experiences formulate and help shape, positively or negatively, the brain development of children. So now we understand the impact of trauma and you know we're looking at how does racial trauma, how will the pandemic trauma, financial trauma, immigration trauma, like all of those things are now kind of community trauma All of those things are building into our understanding of the environment that young people, young young people are experiencing.
Speaker 2:And then, with you know, the ability to access so many things online and through social media, to be able to find a way to take one's life right through social media is horrifying. It's absolutely horrifying because, you know, suicide is a death of impulse. Right, it's in that moment the world seems like it's not. You know life is not worth living and if there's an accessible way to end one's life, you know. When you know that and have that accessibility, in that moment the impulse can be enacted. But when we think about you know that moment can pass in. You know two to three minutes, but the gun gun is available, or there's an awareness or there's a plan that those two to three minutes can be actually life or death.
Speaker 1:Jesus, oh God, and to your point, the access that our children have to information. And, quite frankly, I think even the best parents can't keep up, shairi Right.
Speaker 2:We are not prepared.
Speaker 1:Right, you just can't keep up, we are not prepared. Not prepared, right, you just can't keep up because you can sit them in front of a computer or um a phone and a YouTube channel or any kind of channel and it looks like it's harmless. But you watch it with them for a minute and it starts to go places that maybe start to invite some of these choices that you know you wouldn't think your kid would would lock into.
Speaker 2:Right Um gosh they are digital natives. We are not. We were not. This is a. This is a foreign language we're trying to learn at as an adult, versus for them.
Speaker 2:They are bilingual, oh they know, they're bilingual in the digital world and I think they will be far better prepared than we were to guide their children through these spaces. But you know, the evolution of technology is is indefinite, feels like. But so we do our best to keep up. But you know, we're just we're keeping up right, as opposed to, like sometimes not leading, they're leading us. So what?
Speaker 2:What we did as parents was to really fall back on, like the values right, like how do you keep, instead of, you know, putting up all the walls? How do you teach them to know what to look for, how to keep themselves safe? Because they are going to grow up and they do have access. So it's about having those conversations around, you know, social media and mental health around. How do you, you know, create those boundaries with your school classmates? What's coming right? It's like a constant dialogue, as opposed to, you know, just blocking this, blocking that, blocking that, without a conversation or rationale, because then it almost makes it more enticing for them to trick us and find a way around these blocks and continue to explore without any sort of parameters.
Speaker 1:So you know what? I'll tell you this too, as you talk and I think about being a mom in this day and time, you know, in particular to youngers. Right, you and I we're on the back end of this game and our kids have largely you and I we're on the back end of this game and our kids have largely quote unquote got through some of those formative moments. But, you know, and they're still getting through, admittedly so, but it's a little bit different than some of the moms that are coming up right now who have school age kids, younger kids. They're dealing with the digital language that their kids know better than they do.
Speaker 1:They're dealing with the pressures of so much going on just in life, their own careers, choices, some of which were allowing them to have more flexibility during COVID, and now that's gone away. All the things that they're dealing with. Right, and I listened to this and I'm like, okay, so now if you're mommying, you are mommying and trying to stay centered and balanced and healthy mentally yourself, on top of trying to fight all of the fires and demons and darts that are coming at your littles as well. Right, are you seeing an increase in impact on women, on moms, and, if so, are there metrics that speak to some of those demographics? That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the Surgeon General one of his many, you know, our current, soon to be previous Surgeon General, us Surgeon General put out really impactful reports and used his voice and his office to alert us to things like the youth mental health epidemic, the loneliness and isolation that people are experiencing, the stress of being a parent in this current situation, the current environment how stressful it is for all the reasons you mentioned. In addition, just the parental peer pressure that can happen due to, you know, our ability to see what every other parent is doing, right, all the vacations, all the parenting tips, like, if you don't create those boundaries and those, you know, you're inundated, right, you're inundated with what every other parent is doing. You're inundated with what every other parent is doing. And am I stepping up to the plate enough? Forget about the fact that people have different resources, different financial, compare and then stress ourselves out if we're not doing quote, unquote, doing enough.
Speaker 2:And then that puts our children on that hamster wheel of all the activities, all the activities. You have to do this, you have to have all these things, these profiles, or you won't go to college, right? And that starts, you know, depending on where you are in this country. You know some, some areas of the country are more pressurized than others, right, but it's like what kindergarten are they going to? Like? The waiting line, you know the waiting list for daycare is going to determine what Ivy League your child goes to. Whoa Whoa, like that can't do that. Whoa whoa, like that can't do that. Like there's no safe space for a parent. When you're imbibing all of that, the key to parenting is so much about being present. Yes, and everything around us Say that. For the cheap seats.
Speaker 1:Seriously, anyone listening to us that is.
Speaker 2:That's the key to parenting Stay present.
Speaker 1:Because there's no rule book, but your child will. If you stay present, you will see, you will hear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you will hear things you will not be reaching into your memory about. You know my childhood experience or I should be doing this or you should be doing that and really meeting your child where they are, so they feel seen and heard and acknowledged. Right, they're not supposed to be a smaller version of us, right? They're actually supposed to help us evolve if we really think about it.
Speaker 1:And the evolution, wow, Shirey, honestly, you drip so much and that's actually so good and I think so many of us miss it, right I know for sure. That's been one of the areas of opportunity for me where I think back to things that I may have done as a child and a scenario may present itself where my child could or could not be in the same scenario and I parent from a place of. I've been there, I've done that and, honestly, if there's one thing that a parent listening to us I think you know from your experience skills saying that and me just saying honestly, I've learned it myself you got to stop because you push your child into a place of confusion and distrust as well of themselves. Because if you've not, if they've not done anything to lose trust, just because a scenario is a scenario where you didn't necessarily make a good choice, doesn't mean that's going to be them. They're raised by you in a different point in time, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, wow, proven not perfect, right, I mean for me every kink on the head girl you're learning right. There's no, you know there's parenting books. You've got to apply them as you're. You know taking the time to read right While you're trying to raise. It's the whole. You know building the plane while read right while you're trying to raise.
Speaker 2:It's the whole. You know, building the plane while it's flying, the plane while it's flying, and you just feel caught up in that moment and it's so very hard to stay present. But that that would be the key to it all, because what you don't want to say to your child is like you're not okay, like not, I'm not okay with how you are because you're not like me, or you're not worse than that, you're not like that child over there, cause then you're telling them that you know, prefer to be that child's mom than than your child. Like there's all this messaging when you don't stay or you have a framework about who your child should be, when in fact they're just not that person. They are not. They were raised by you, they are half you, they are half somebody else who was raised by other you know whole other family.
Speaker 1:That's right, Right.
Speaker 2:So we can't, if we can just step back and let that go, especially in these moments when the world is swirling around our children and we just say I see you, I hear you, I'm here for you, I want the best for you. Like that would go such a long way.
Speaker 1:All right. So now we got to go back to this word that's come up a couple of times boundaries. Let's talk about boundaries. So first of all, how do you define boundaries, and why is the word boundaries on your mind right now in such a big way?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it came to me sort of the beginning of this year. Every year I try to first like, set some goals and plan and figure out what the theme of the year is, and I think what happened towards the end of last year was just having conversations, some specific conversations, where I exerted my boundaries, I defined my boundaries, I exerted my boundaries in a way that was calm and then recognized how freeing, how free I felt after that conversation, how free I felt, how empowered and then how mentally my well-being was enhanced and I was like boundaries are, I think, especially for us as women. Sometimes we find it hard to define our boundaries and really, when I say boundaries, it's the physical space, it's the psychological, emotional space, it's the mental space that we need to take to put between ourselves and others.
Speaker 2:And I think what's interesting is when people, many times, when people think about boundaries, they envision like building brick walls. Right, I'm going to build this boundary, I'm going to you know like I'm going to stand here, I'm going to defend it, I'm going to fight. It's a fight when I tell you what my boundary might be, when, in fact, a boundary can be, you know, a chain link, fence, right when you can see through it, you can hear through it, you can touch the other person on the other side, but there's some clarity about what is my space emotionally, psychologically, physically and what is your space. Wow, it's not a battle, right? It is in fact an opportunity for me to clarify for myself what my priorities and values are and to share them with you and then, once we have that understanding, to connect more authentically and not less.
Speaker 1:So I can think of that being a relevant thing to consider in every lane of our life, whether it's our family life, whether it's our family life, whether it's our faith life, our spiritual life, whether it's our work life, right, community life, all of it, right? Wow? So have you put into practice some specific things that would be useful as we think about boundaries and what it means for us? Because just because you read that in the word and that's how the word resonated in your heart, doesn't mean that that's how I read it and it resonated in my heart. In fact, if it's a living word, it's gonna naturally be a little bit different what I hear and what you hear, because we're different people right.
Speaker 1:So tell me how you get, how you sort of reconcile and keep that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so everybody's boundaries are different, right, we were all raised differently. We had different parents, we were raised in different parts of the country, maybe different parts of the world where, like when you think about physical boundaries, some people are not huggers, right, and some people don't want you close in their space. But I think the point the important things about boundaries is first getting clear about what's important to you, right? What are the things that make you feel safe and secure when you interact with others? Right, like A boundary is I don't want to be around people who are constantly negative, right, it doesn't feel good. I don't want to take that in and start emulating that in anyone.
Speaker 2:That person is a relative right which, if you have to say you know, get clear with yourself about you. Know how much time you're willing to spend, if any. You know we just came out of the holiday season. Oftentimes it's those times when you're kind of naturally going to interact with folks who may not share the same values, where you have to establish your boundaries. And I just think, knowing what's important to you, right? Is it physical space? Is it topics of conversation? You know boundaries around now, the whole political conversation and where we're going as a country, right. How much do you want to engage in that with other people? Right, being clear for yourself, for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, and then putting that in practice I just think about it practically speaking for me. So if I'm clear up front on what my boundaries are and I love that one I don't want to intentionally place myself to hear negativity and be a part of negativity Right, and so, if that's the case, if that's my clear thing, and I'm in a situation where maybe it's family, maybe it's work, maybe it's something right, um, what is my strategy? To quickly acknowledge that I'm now in a space that's no longer serving me? And then how do I navigate? What are going to be my strategies to navigate my way out of it? If it's a work situation, maybe it's. You know, with all due respect, I don't share that viewpoint and I really don't care to discuss it. Right, yeah, and it's. And this, and the conversation ends yeah, maybe you do the same thing in your family, or you do the same thing you know otherwise, Right? Or maybe it happens around you and you sort of hum, I don't know. But I think it starts with being clear.
Speaker 2:Yep, and and and how you define. First how you defined and then how you defend your boundaries are both very unique and personal to you but I define and defend, and I think when I say defend, I don't want people to think combat right.
Speaker 2:It's exactly the opposite, because you one of the reasons people are hesitant about defining and defending their boundaries, or establishing their boundaries maybe that's a better word because it feels like it's going to be a battle. Step back, deep breath and I think one of the things that I've heard and learned from our Gen Z children is like the ability to just say, all right, so that's not okay with me, right, Like just practicing that statement so that it's your go-to, that's not okay with me, and here's why your go-to that's not okay with me, and here's why right, and just make the statement.
Speaker 1:So you have to say here's why. So now Gen X is asking the stupid questions, right? So do you have to say why, or can you just say okay, that's not okay with me. I mean it's not okay with me Because I find Gen X, I find me I'm big on the explaining Because I find Gen X.
Speaker 2:I find me.
Speaker 1:I'm big on the explaining and I find that the explaining takes me down a path that now just opens up my vulnerability. That I never really wanted anyway. Right, why do I have to do the explaining?
Speaker 2:Right, you don't have to explain, but our educated friends in the seats, we do know it's X-flame, right right, so you do not have to explain if it makes you feel vulnerable or defensive, but sometimes it provides that opportunity for clarity, right, so it really is what works best for you. And as you start to practice the I'm not okay with this, like you know, I'm not okay with this, so I'm going to go back to my desk or I'm going to, you know, end this call. Maybe we can pick it up at another time, right, you don't have to explain that it's making your blood pressure elevated and I remember when, when my neck got hot right Like or red. But you don't have to get into all of that. You just it's like very clear, calm, kind, I don't, I don't think this is a I don't. You know, this is not okay for me and I don't think this is a productive use of our time.
Speaker 2:Right, maybe we can pick it up later, but maybe not. You know, you and I were together not too long ago and had some opportunities to show like, hey, that was a subtle definition of boundary keeping, right, where nobody's feelings were hurt. But it was clear that, like, you're not going to move that into my space, right, I'm not going to move that into my space and I'm okay If you're not happy with that, I'm not going to go over it.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to be very factual. No, you, you know. No, thank you. I don't want this. I don't want to do this Right. I think oftentimes women, especially in dynamics with men, get this subtle pressure to do something. I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1:I don't want to explain it. I have to go here too, right. So you know many years in corporate and successfully navigating the experiences over. You know 36 years or so, a lot of years. One of the things that I can honestly say, especially starting early career. You're in spaces where usually you're one of few and if not the only woman in your set with men and because of that you are in this prove mode, right, because you don't want anyone ever to say that you got something that you did not earn, something that you did not earn. The problem with that is that if you're overly prove mode without boundaries and they don't see it that way you're just doing way too much.
Speaker 2:And what is. And then I look back on, like what is the toll on you? Right, when we turn around? So we continue in this space that does not, this corporate or workspace that does not feel like it supports or sustains us. But we are going to do what we need to do and let people move in and out of our boundary space. What is the toll that it takes? Right, so we have this job, but we're losing our hair. We have a job, but our blood pressure is now high enough to require medication or uncontrolled. Right, we have this job, and it's not to say you have to give up the job.
Speaker 1:Right, because we understand we have to work for a living, because this doesn't mean you don't enjoy it right, Because we understand we have to work for a living and we do have aspirations, Because this doesn't mean you don't enjoy it, right? I mean honestly, you know. I would say that we have aspirations for our career right.
Speaker 2:So, it's a balance. But if you're taking too much in right, you have to stop and assess like is this worth it?
Speaker 1:Is this the right place for me if my health and my mental health and well-being are being so deeply impacted that I can't be myself in other spaces, and I'm certainly not myself here have to talk about navigating spaces as female leaders, and that can be any space, right From my you know healthcare industry leaders, to my theater industry leaders, to corporate leaders, right, I think there is absolutely some nuggets in there for us to unpack around how to successfully do that. So I would love to have you back to talk about that particular piece, but before I let you go, something that resonates for me as we talk and think about boundaries is the notion of freedom, and it's just the freedom to be firmly, clearly, who you are, unapologetically. And I'd like to read something from a book that I've just picked up along the way. So full credit to the, the author of this, but the title is freedom. The question that the author poses is does the artist have a social responsibility? Now the author goes in to say some might agree with this notion and want to encourage artists to create accordingly.
Speaker 1:Those who hold this belief may not have a clear understanding of the function of art in society and its integral social value. The work of art serves its purpose independent of the creator's interest in social responsibility. Wanting to change people's minds about an issue or have an effect on society may interfere with the quality and purity of the work. This doesn't mean that our work can't have those qualities, but we generally don't get there by planning them in the creative process. It's often more difficult to accomplish a goal by aiming at it. Deciding what to say in advance doesn't allow whatever's best to come. Meaning is assigned once an inspired idea is followed through. It's best to wait until a work is complete to discover what it is saying. Holding your work hostage to meaning is a limitation. One more thing Works that attempt to overtly preach a message often don't connect as hoped, while a piece not intended to address a societal ill may become an anthem for a revolutionary cause. Art is far more important and more powerful than our plans of it. What does that say to you?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that says it all, it encapsulates it all. It is artistic boundaries, freedom through artistic boundaries. Do not tell the artist to prescribe. You know, prescribing the artist to do something, to address something, you're losing the whole natural process that exists. That is why beautiful art is created, because it's created where the artist says my boundaries, I have my boundaries about how this piece is going to be. It's going to come through me, right? You're not going to push it through me. It's going to move through me, and that is the epitome of all boundary setting. Right? It's about freedom, mental well-being through boundary setting. Don't let somebody push a piece on you, whatever that piece may be.
Speaker 1:Don't let someone push that piece on you and ask you to produce something that does not come innately to you, oh, and I'm going to give a plus one to that and say the responsibility that we all have to be mindful of when we become the pusher. Yes, and to be mindful and I think of that in particular with our babies, as we talked earlier right, really kind of leaning in and assessing where am I really paying attention and listening and allowing them to show and where am I pushing based on my own boundaries? So, girl, sis, I love you so much. You're amazing. I'm grateful to God that you are just a new treasure in my life and this conversation giving up to him. We're proven, not perfect, and you know, we're proud and that's it. We just are who we are, no changing us.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:The doctor is in y'all, we'll be talking more. See you soon. Bye.