Proven Not Perfect
Proven Not Perfect
The Sacred Dance of Leadership with Reverand Dr. Erin Skipworth
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
What happens when God calls you to lead the very church where you grew up? When Reverend Dr. Erin Skipworth felt the calling to pastoral ministry, she never imagined she would one day become the first female pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in York, Pennsylvania—the congregation her father led for 50 years and where she spent her childhood sitting in the pews.
In this soul-stirring conversation, Dr. Skipworth reveals how her early career in corporate marketing unexpectedly prepared her for ministry leadership. "I believe God was always preparing me for this transition," she reflects, sharing how lessons in organizational culture, people management, and authentic leadership became invaluable tools in her pastoral toolkit. Her story beautifully illustrates how seemingly unrelated professional experiences can be divine preparation for unexpected callings.
The transition from being known as "the pastor's daughter" to becoming "the pastor" presented unique challenges. With remarkable wisdom, Dr. Skipworth discusses how she navigated changing relationships with congregation members who had known her since childhood, establishing appropriate boundaries while maintaining authentic connections. Her insights offer valuable guidance for anyone stepping into leadership roles where personal and professional worlds intersect.
Dr. Skipworth also explores the evolving landscape of ministry in the digital age. Unlike pastors of previous generations, today's church leaders can leverage social media and technology to connect with their congregations in new ways—creating both opportunities and challenges for authentic ministry. Her thoughtful approach to balancing transparency with appropriate privacy serves as a masterclass in digital-age leadership.
At the heart of our discussion lies a powerful message about soul care and heart condition. "Our ministry and the things that we desire flow from the heart," Dr. Skipworth emphasizes, recommending spiritual practices and resources that nurture inner wellbeing. Whether you're leading a congregation, a corporation, or simply seeking to live purposefully, her wisdom about tending to your inner life will resonate deeply.
Ready to be inspired by a journey of faith, leadership, and authentic calling? Listen now and discover how God might be preparing you for your own full-circle moment.
Follow me on Instagram at: shontrapowell_provennotperfect
Follow me on Facebook at: Proven Not Perfect™️
Watch and listen on YouTube: Proven Not Perfect™️
Join the community for ideas and events at www.provennotperfect.com.
I'd love to hear what you think!
Introduction to Reverend Dr. Aaron Skipworth
Speaker 2Good morning, good morning, good morning. How are you doing?
Speaker 2Oh, my God, I'm doing good, okay so we tried to make this happen for a little while and it was a wonderful dance to get to this space with Reverend Dr. I'm going to say it right Reverend Dr Aaron Skipworth is in the house with Proven Not Perfect community of women who are driven for success and who are inspired by conversations around business and leadership, self-care, network and faith and family, and I couldn't think of a more fitting guest to inspire us and to unpack some conversations today around the business of souls. And I think you were recently, like recently, over this summer, you got some additional credentials. So let's start by like paying honor and due to that. So tell me about how your summer concluded. What happened?
Speaker 1So I graduated with my PhD Thank you Church and ministry leadership, and so it's been a great accomplishment, and I think that's probably why we're finally getting our time. It took us a while, but that was just something that that and the boys that and the boys.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, that in the boys, but no, it's just, it's been wonderful. It was something that I've been, I have I've been in school for seven years, so this was not, you know this, this took me a little bit of time because I've been working and growing family and doing ministry at the same time and doing ministry at the same time, and so I will say it was just such a great accomplishment. You know, something that I did that I thought was God ordained for me to do, and walk through, and it was not easy. And so, you know, we never give ourselves, you know, a pat on the back or just kind of take some time to really sit in and celebrate what we do, and I've been.
Speaker 1This one has been one that I've I've been sitting in and I'm just grateful, um, that just God allowed me to get through, um, and now I'm like this is where when the real work begins. And so, um, I was just um newly installed at as a pastor at a church, bethlehem Baptist church in York, pennsylvania. I'm proud to be their pastor. Yes, I grew up in that church, and so the real Full circle.
Speaker 2That's like a full circle.
Speaker 1It is a full circle, a place that Did you know this.
Speaker 2Okay, now we, okay, seriously, now we should know this. So when you were sitting in the pew at the church growing up as a little girl if you were like me because I was a church girl growing up right with the padded, leather shoes, cute little dresses and all the things my mom was that girl and she made me that girl. But I can tell you that when mom wasn't looking I might have been doing some shenanigans, right, like you know. When I was on the choir, even when the joke really wasn't joking, you know, I was the one snickering with the friends on the choir stand, hoping mama didn't see me, but she always did. So tell me your little girl in that church, wow, tell me, did you see yourself up there or was there a calling at a certain point in time? Need to unpack this?
Speaker 1That's a great question and it's it's a little, it's ebbs and flows. Number one, to answer your question we'll start off with did I ever see myself like up there, especially in that church and as pastor? No, that was something that God placed in my heart, probably about, maybe, I'll say, like three years ago, where I knew I was called to pastor and I knew that I really loved, loved that church and if I was going to pastor it was my heart's desire to do it there. And so that God just blessed me, he gave me the desires of my heart and I knew that he would not place it in my heart. You know, without following through on it, but you never know how God is going to work. So I was, like you know, 20 years from now or after I go, pastor my first church who knows?
Speaker 1But to go back to the initial calling, as a young girl I was always intrigued and attentive to preaching and good preaching, preaching and good preaching. So even as a little girl, like I would, I knew some of you know my, my favorite preachers in in in York, where I grew up, we had some really great preachers. My dad was a great preacher, so I've always been around good, preaching and articulate men and women, and so I knew that I always wanted to do something. Where I'm speaking, I was like, well, maybe I'll be a lawyer, maybe I'll, you know. So I've always, you know, been into words and and how you utilize words and the rhythm of of utilizing words. And I, I, I did sing for a while. I started singing in my church and so I was like, okay, well, maybe this is like a little humble seed right there.
Speaker 2Okay, yeah, we might have you break out in some before we leave. Oh goodness.
Speaker 1Used to, and so I got comfortable in front of people. And so I was like, well, maybe this is where God is taking me. And for nine years I served as a worship leader, and so you have to speak. And I was like, well, maybe this is how I'm going to fulfill this calling to preach or to do this thing. And then I would say, probably in college I went to Howard University and I was a part of the Howard Gospel Choir.
Speaker 2I'm not going to have a shade at all that we just played FAMU at the Orange Bosque.
Speaker 1Oh, I saw that that was not. Let me go look at that over there.
Speaker 2Go back to the testimony.
Journey to Pastoral Leadership
Speaker 1Go back yeah, and so you know you, you I'm exposed to um people my age. You know kids that aren't, you know, afraid to say what they feel God has called them to do. And you have preachers, you have teachers, and the calling just started to come back to me because I thought, like once I left church, I wasn't, it wasn't my intent to be, like, I'm not going to be this woman that goes to church all the time. I love God, I love to sing. I did that. I'm a PK. I probably should have said that. So my dad was my pastor and my dad pastored at our church for 50 years, wow. And so that was a life that I honestly did not want myself, and it's not a life that I wanted to put a spouse or children through.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's true, and I'm so eager to talk a little bit more about that because someone's listening to this and they are inspired by the business of ministry and I believe they'll be blessed when we unpack a couple things. Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1Yeah. And so I just began to really just trying to figure this out, trying to run from this feeling that I'm called to preach, um, this is um, what year is this? Maybe 2012? And um, and I said, you know, I believe I'm called to preach, and he was like yeah, yeah, I know that.
Speaker 2So, yes.
Speaker 1So he's like, if this is and I think he never wanted to put that pressure on me so he would say things and we would, you know, laugh about it, but I don't think he ever wanted to put that on me that that's a calling that you personally have to accept yourself. And so he said, okay, like let's start thinking about this, let's start talking through this. And we spent probably like six months to a year talking through, and then I did my initial sermon and I just served as an itinerant preacher, going to different churches, and pastors started inviting me to preach Sunday morning when they weren't on vacation or, like you know, when they're like, hey, I need a break, but I want my church to have a pastoral word. And I'm like pastoral word, you know, like I just you know, this is just something I, like you know, I'm enjoying doing, growing. And then I would say about three years ago it's happened pretty fast Three or four years ago God, pretty much you know, said you know you're called to pastor, and timing, you know, it's so funny because at the right after that my dad asked all of his associates what is next in your call?
Speaker 1And so I let him know that. And so we started looking at different. He was like, let's start looking at churches. I see churches all the time. And then in between that time my father got sick and he started to just express that, hey, I'm ready to transition. And then I'm like, oh okay, and so, honestly, I just kind of waited for the process. He knew that I wanted to pastor the church that I pastor at Bethlehem they know how serious I am about the word and God's people and so he presented two names, and Yours was one.
Speaker 2Yes, praise God, wow, wow, wow. Okay, so you talk about three years being really quick, and it really is quick in one sense, but it's fast in another sense, when you're making a transition from being a sheep to shepherding sheep. Yes, tell us about the. Perhaps the word I want to use is the seriousness by which one assumes this responsibility, because we all know it's not trivial, but we live in a day where people are building platforms and all the things. People are building platforms and all the things, and there's a whole lot of sifting through what is real and what is what's not. Quite frankly, tell me about your journey to say this this is a call, this is my heart and I understand the severity of it. Like, tell me about that, cause I haven't think about that. Leading people in a corporate sense, right, like it could be five people or 500, like even in a secular sense. When God positions me to have a responsibility for another soul, I have to take that seriously, even in a secular sense. So tell me what that?
Speaker 1yeah, I think. Well, what I can say is that I believe God was always preparing me for this transition, in this a role, this serious, and it's funny because you never appreciate things until you can kind of look back on them. So I think about the first job that I had. I worked at the Pennsylvania Lottery and my first year I was like a research analyst and then the second year I became a marketing manager. And so the other marketing manager she had been there her entire career and I'll just say this I don't think that her and others around me thought that I was old enough or had been there enough years to have that role. And there are some days I probably felt the same Right. But I was placed there I had to at two years out of college and you know I went to Howard University, so I probably wasn't. You know, you come from a place where everything about you is celebrated and then you go into a corporate setting Right when people aren't celebrating everything about you, or what you celebrate about yourself is not necessarily something to celebrate for them.
Speaker 1Yes, so it was such a quick to go from Howard University to that, and so I had to become serious really quick. I had to do a lot on my own, because what I thought I would be able to depend on my colleagues for very seldom could I. You know, in certain ways there were things said and done, and so I left that place a little broken, I'll say. But I walked into another situation where I was able to progress. I was a manager, and so I don't necessarily look at that situation as a bad situation. I feel like it was just essential for my growth. It told me, like you know the areas where I don't want to be, you know where I don't want to work, a type of environment that I don't want to work. It taught me about how leaders really set the tone and the culture of an organization, and so you know, you can be a change agent sometime. But then there's other situations where you just have to kind of.
From PK to Pastor
Speaker 2If you want to be there, you have to figure out how to live in the culture in the culture, um and so, and knowing the difference, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's trivial because a lot of people come in hot, yes, they don't take time to really do what you just say, yes, and to be of that culture for a little bit. Are you meant to change that culture like what truly is the assignment?
Speaker 1yes, and so I didn't stay there long, um, even though that was my intent. But I learned a lot. I was there for four years maybe, but I learned a lot and it it made me, it opened my eyes to just how to to treat people. Treat people, how to maneuver through, you know, difficult circumstances. And so I say all that, to say all of my work experience I really feel like it prepared me for this, for the church. Even organizational behavior and administration and organization. I'm very organized and those are just some of the things that I feel like those are the strengths that I think I'll have to utilize initially in this role. And so I think my experiences prepared me, my work experience prepared me for the church and I'm still working.
Speaker 1I like I'm a bivocational, I enjoy being in both settings. It can be a lot, but I enjoy having being able to learn in one area and then take it, you know, to another area. But as far as the seriousness of souls, that was quick because, as I shared with you, this is a church that I grew up in. So I know most of the members, I know all of the members, but I know many of them intimately. I called them aunt their kids. I call a cousin, I went to school with some of their kids and so I had to and this is something that, I'll be honest, I don't like to do but I had to kind of set the tone right, um, for the, for the transition in relationships, because I am no longer in this setting, I am not your niece yes you know I'm not your second daughter.
Speaker 1You know we can still have those relationships, but I had to kind of build different relationships with people and I had to be the one to do that, to do that to, you know, remind people hey, I'm not Aaron in here because I have to set the tone in the culture. And then you do that by also giving people that respect. I don't call my aunts in the church you know their sister so-and-so, because I want, you know, I want other people to see how I treat them and what they should be called. And so it was a lot of transition and change, but I will say it's been good. It hasn't been as difficult as I imagined and I think it's all about what you said.
Speaker 1I think that word is important. We probably don't use it enough, but it's because I'm serious about what I do and when people see that you're serious about this role and what you do, they respect that. And when you follow through, they respect that. Like I am, I'm when I'm, when I come to preach on Sunday morning, I am always prepared, Like I don't, you know, like yeah, I have a lot going on this week, but you called me to pastor, and so on Sunday mornings, that's that's when I show you that I work right. That's when I show you all, and so I'm serious about the word that I bring. I try to be as authentic as I can be. You know, I'm the first female pastor of this church. Wow, that's huge, it is.
Speaker 2Because it's culture setting, right. So when I'm listening to you, I love, I love, I love how you pointed out even from the very beginning, you were probably being prepared, right? Because all of those things that allowed you to stand out and to be different and to do all the things as a change agent in your first career, right? Really it sounds like it's exactly what you needed to reintroduce yourself, not only as the leader of the church, but new relationship to people that you've known forever. That's incredible.
Speaker 1Yes, so it, it has been good. I think, um, I think that there's more women when people know you there's more, they're more skeptical because they're like, okay, I know Erin, you know, I know she's busy, she all you know, so I, you know, I. You have to be honest about um other people's perception of you, and it can't be all about your perception of yourself.
Speaker 2And so you deal with that. So cause that's a big one I think yeah. Perception is a really, really big one, um, and so here, here's where where my question lies, in that we all hear perception is reality in any conversation that you may have, and anything that may happen. Right, and so that gives me agency over what I perceived and you agency over what you perceive, which is there has to be still yet an anchor position, right, and so that becomes the challenge for a lot of people.
Speaker 1Oh, absolutely Absolutely. And you know, you grew up in the church, so a lot of what people say it comes back to you somehow, right, yes, so, and I, I honestly I love that Like people are like, oh well, such and such said I'm like, okay, so, but I enjoy that, you know, and I and I take things, I laugh if it's you know, some things have you know, but but it it truly gives you an idea of what people are talking about, right, and where their minds are, and so let's like, let's be real, okay, I am, I'm called to do this, I. So let's like, let's be real, okay, I'm called to do this, I'm studied it, something that God called me to do. But that's something that people don't know. What they know is that I'm the daughter of the previous pastor. Right, I have. I Married to a talented athletic legacy man.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, and so they're like okay, and not too bad yourself, yes, and they're like okay and she, like I said, for 10 years I was preaching out at different places, so now she's going to, you know, every Sunday she's going, and so being honest about, like, not how you see yourself or what, what, what do you need to show the people Right, and that is your response.
Setting the Tone as First Female Pastor
Speaker 1I'm not saying that you have to prove anything to anybody, you know, but you do. I do have a responsibility to show the people who I am Right, and so you may hear or think, but this, who I am right, and so you may hear or think, but this is who I am in this season, this is what I'm willing to give and do, and then that's when you can expect whatever reciprocal you know the relationship is going to be. But you first have to show the people that called you to the position right, that you're serious about it. And I think sometimes we, I think, sometimes even I'll say I'll probably say younger preachers or younger professionals sometimes you know that's the one thing we don't want to do. We feel like, oh, I don't have to prove myself to anybody, and it's not really a proving right.
Speaker 1We really probably have to prove more to ourselves than we do to other people.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Yeah, but when you're leading people right, you have a responsibility to let them know that A they're in a safe place, that they can trust you right, that you know what you're talking about, that you study, and that, when you don't, that you know what you're talking about, that you study, and that when you don't know, when you don't know something, you say well, I'll figure that out. Like, you have a responsibility to be authentic and transparent, especially in the spiritual space. Right, cause that's what we're asking other people to do. We're really asking people to trust us with with their hearts, with their children. We're asking them to have faith in a God who they can't see. Right, and so you have to make the word.
Speaker 1One of the things that I like to do is I like to make the word practical. How do I apply it to my life? But then also, how can I be honest about the things of God that I may not truly understand? And I have to learn how to trust. If they can't trust you as their pastor, it's going to be hard for them to really um walk a deeper faith, walk and have trust in in God, and I and I see all that as intertwined, um, and so I, I do try to, like I do. I'm on Facebook, I try to kind of show people a little bit into my life without showing too much. But you know I'm a person just like everybody else. You know I have flaws. I have things that I need to do, to do. I like my, I like you to respect my time and so I'm going to respect your time, and so I think all of those things in this little bit of time.
Speaker 1Like I, when, when people ask me how things are going at the church, I've been there. I've been working in the pastoral role since January, so, but I just got installed in August, but it's been going so well and I, and I can only attribute that to, first of all, god is good, god is faithful. That to um, first of all, god is good, god is faithful, yes, and that is. And when, whatever God ordains and designs for us, it's going to it. It just it works out Right. But then, but we're people and so, um, I would just say, like I, just I respect them, I'm serious about the role and I think, in return, like they're excited about also, um, you know, working alongside with me, um, in ministry, and so it's, it's working, um, it's been going well, um, and, and I'm and I'm and I. We've also had challenges, but I think when, when people respect one another, when we know that we're all serious and care about the church and about ministry, you get through it. You get through it.
Ministry in the Social Media Age
Speaker 2I think it's really neat when you can get to a place of authenticity and ministry leadership. Authenticity and ministry leadership I believe that I grew up in an era where the late Reverend Dr Clay was revered revered and somewhat feared, you know, not a deity, but certainly maybe, from my viewpoint as a little girl at the time, feeling like, oh my, perhaps, and I remember him being such a kind and gentle person in person, but there was still a level of sort of you know, maybe us imparting on him this. You know this position right. I wonder if we live in a space now where our pastoral leaders can leverage social media as a tool to help us all to understand that you are people too.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2I think there's so much value and benefit in that. I think for me, I think two things are valuable. I think for me, I think two things are valuable.
Speaker 2One, it doesn't make it such a foreign consideration if God taps you on the shoulder to do some assignments for him because you feel like, well, I see a human that I sit in the pew and listen to every day.
Speaker 2So I know that they are not, you know, an angel from heaven, so to speak. So if they are not an angel from heaven and I feel like I'm tapped, okay, maybe I can humbly do this, even though I'm like are you sure you tapped the right person Right? Like what are you doing Because? Huh, but I think that that's one thing that perhaps makes it more approachable for more souls to say, yes, I see it and I feel the calling and I'm willing to be vulnerable and let you lead me. The other thing that I would say is in their ability to be human, we now can see that they're not perfect, yes, and they're living an imperfect life in imperfect environments, just like we are, and I think that both of those things are good news for us. But that's me. What do I know right? I'm curious to hear what you think I do.
Speaker 1I think that I will say I'm happy to be pastoring in this age. I think that social media and even, you know, I think we have Zoom, we have virtual ways that we can interact with one another. So I can have meetings virtually, you can email one another, so there are so many new and different ways to connect with people. Some of my really good friends in ministry today, because you know, at one point, women in ministry, especially pastoring, they, you know, we're just dispersed all over the nation, the world really, and so I didn't know too many women pastors, I didn't have close relationships with too many women pastors.
Speaker 1I didn't grow up seeing that Right, right, one of my, some of my closest friends, who are pastors, are ones that I've met because we linked virtually, like we were, all you know, on a virtual class or conference and, you know, started to communicate and then, as you go to conferences, you, you run into these people and you get to know them, and so I'll say, the connection um with colleagues is is really great because of social media. But even with with members or um, there are people that you know, fought, were on Facebook, um, and so there are people who will say reach out and say, hey, I listened to the word on Facebook and it touched me this way, or, you know, I'm wondering about this, or I'm going to, I'm going to try to, I'm going to try to, you know, get to the church on this date. I can't be there every Sunday. I have, you know, members now in Washington DC, in Maryland, and so they're not there every Sunday, but they're there when they can get to the church physically, but then they attend online with us virtually when they can't. And so that part, that piece in regards to connecting, is, it's a benefit, you know, to the church because now you have access to people with different resources, experiences, and so, you know, the church always needs volunteers, right, and at one point you were kind of limited to the people who lived, you know, around you, which was, which was, has always worked. But now it opens up.
Speaker 1I think, you know, the more diverse the church is, the more that it benefits from skills and knowledge. And then, in regards to my life, it does allow me to share, to my life, it does allow me to share, right. And so, since I was already on social media and kind of, and then became a pastor, it's, it's, it's not really anything new to our my membership that I, you know, I like to post pictures and, like, when we travel, I share pictures or I'm, um, again going back to my experience, um, I was in marketing, right, that was my background, and so I have, for the most part, for my boys basketball, you know, career they're, of course, younger, but I've ran their social media pages, social media pages, and so that's something that I love to do. I love to create flyers. I like, you know, I like to be creative, and so that's something that I use in the pastoral role, but also in my personal life.
Speaker 1I think one challenge is how much do you share, right? Especially now that I'm getting into this pastoral role, I feel like I'm always with people, I'm always talking. You know they're always asking questions, which I'm very open about. But now I'm like there are some days where, like we just went on vacation for a few days no basketball, no ministry work. My husband took off and I took pictures, but I didn't post a lot because I just I just needed some personal us time, and so that is one thing that you have to learn to balance how much do you share, right? What do you share? And and that in itself it has to align with also who you share in person, right? So you know if you, if you're going to share, just be clear about again we talk about perception be clear about what you want people to know about you or to think about you and what the conversation is going to be, because when church wraps up.
Speaker 2If you're sharing, you know everything. Then don't be offended if sister so-and-so, you know, instead of talking about the word you just delivered, wants to talk about the water park trip. Right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Wow, that's dropping some knowledge for sure.
Faith and Business Integration
Speaker 1But it helps because you have different. You know, even administratively, there's so many tools that we now have access to as pastors that, like when I saw my dad writing his sermons, he didn't have access to those tools. He didn't have access to tools that allowed him for time management. He was, you know, he had to go to the church to meet, he had to go to people's houses to counsel, and so there's so many benefits to being a pastor today that you know, pastors have at their fingertips to utilize. So I'm, you know I'm, I am definitely one who I utilize anything that makes my life easier but also allows me to connect to people or with people, especially, you know, I'm working, so things that are quick, I can, when I'm driving home, I can, you know, call someone and we can have a phone conversation on my way home, you know. So I try to definitely utilize all the tools, all the tools, all the things.
Speaker 2Yes, so I need to. We need to pivot into thinking about so many people that are listening to this conversation who will not say that they believe. You know, at least at this point they're tapped to ministry as a title, but they do feel a responsibility to carry their faith forward right and their beliefs forward, and everybody has sort of a different thing that gets them there right and their beliefs forward, and everybody has sort of a different thing that gets them there right. For a lot of people, coming out of 2020, for sure has been a thing I know. For me, there were two books one that I had received and read long before 2020, that really came to me at a time in my career, probably like 2010 or 2013 or so that really got me thinking about the integration of my life and business and my faith and God, placing me in circumstances similar to you, with great leadership and voice and influence in what would be considered the most tumultuous of times, like why, when I got the role, it was nice and then it became, you know, a divestiture, or why, when I, you know, looked at the job, it was stable and it became a transformational assignment, why I went right and so, girl, the amount of times that I went to him saying, right and so, girl, the amount of times that I went to him saying, wait a minute, why? And I think now thanks to a couple of resources.
Speaker 2So the one book that that really grabbed me initially was this one called Kingdom Calling by Amy L Sherman. I don't know if you know this one, but, man, I would love you to read it, just so that we can go back and talk about it. It's Relational Scholarship for the Common Good and it really got me grounded in understanding that you don't have to be in the economic structure business of ministry to be in the business of ministry. As we all are should be in the business of ministry in some discipleship, in some way. I mean, everybody's in a different lane in their level of what that means to them. But even if that means showing up in your place of work with a heart of love, right, like there still is an assignment there. That was one, and then the other one was this book by John Mark Comer, which, coincidentally, my pastor brings up a lot, and I laugh because I found this book in 2020. It's the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry, which is another one.
Speaker 2Um, where those two books. That one really got me sort of centered around being still um, living a much more holistic life as as a, as a follower of Jesus Christ, and unpacking everything. So trust and know. I'm not the Reverend Doctor on this call and I'm very clear on that, but I'd love to hear as you, minister, and as you think about the environment that we're all living and functioning and operating in. My listeners are, like I said, these women that are doing the thing. What would be your encouragement or your words or any resources that you have for them in this ultra dynamic environment where we're trying to show up so completely for our families and ourselves and our calling?
Speaker 1Yes, I would say, and I've always gravitated toward books about the heart, one of my one, and there's one book that I read, the Atlas of the Heart by Brene Brown. And then there's, there's actually a book that I just started. I can show you I don't do the physical books, but you know I do the audibles. Yes, and this one I just started, oh, and also the Gardener from Within, anita Phillips. She's awesome. But then I started, oh, matters, matters of the heart, so healing your relationship with yourself and those you love, by, uh, thayma Bryant, um, dr Thayma Bryant, um, I like, I, I personally love books about the heart that I read in between, like other books that I'm reading, because you always have to be centering you right, you always have to be thinking about your heart and the healing of your heart, and I believe that our ministry and the things that we desire flow from the heart, and so the condition of our heart is so important. It's interesting.
Speaker 1I just preached on Luke 8, where Jesus was telling the parable about. He was talking about sharing a parable with the disciples and really it just talks about what happens to his seed. When God puts something in your heart, what happens to it based on the condition of your heart. Right, there's some hearts that his word can fall on. He can give you something that you're meant to do, but if your heart is thorny, you know, it doesn't get a chance to get deep inside your heart. And when something comes and distracts you, it takes the seed right away. And now you're looking again for like, well, you know what, what, god, what am I supposed to be doing? A lot of us were always like trying to figure out God, what am I supposed to be doing?
Heart-Centered Leadership and Soul Care
Speaker 1And you know and that is a responsibility to us, but God drops so much in our heart If we would just kind of just stay there for a little bit. We're always, you know, searching, and that's just the world that we live in, right? There's so many distractions. Then there's some hearts that we have so much going on that the seed gets into our heart, but it's smothered by all the other things that we think are important. Trying to be this person for that person, you know, trying to, we're worried and stressed, and so the art, the, the, the word of God has to be able to fall on good ground, and so our heart, the condition of our heart, is so important, and so that's one of the things that I'm always leading people to do as they're searching or as they're studying. You know, whatever you're called to do, we all have a responsibility, right, we all have a responsibility in ministry, regardless of the level right of ministry that we want to do, regardless of the level right of ministry that we want to do.
Speaker 1I used to teach a class called business as ministry for entrepreneurs who they don't necessarily have a ministry. Business a business, you know, ran on ministry, but they want their ministry to be, they want their, their business, to be pleasing to God, and so how I treat people, how I think about the services I provide, how I think about my policies and how I talk to people and we talked about culture, and so it's not about ministry per se, it's how do I handle business in a way that's pleasing to God, how do I align myself as much as I can to the principles of God's word. But we should always, we always need to be healing. You know, we always need to be caring for ourselves and caring. We can't care for others if, if we have a closed heart and we're not caring for ourselves.
Speaker 2I think you need to say that for the chiefs. It's an old mindset where I can think of people in my life right now who are so serve, give, oriented, as if you can serve, give your way to, you know the future that you envision Right, and they don't take any time to replenish, yes, and what you're really, really bringing to the forefront is when the word says let the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, man, oh my God, thinking about that as your soil, what?
Speaker 1Yes, yes, and so you know your heart has to be in the right place. You could have all the great ideas that you want, right, yes, and, and begin working on. If you're not healing, if you're not well, right, if you're not good to people, if your heart is not in the right place. You know good ideas, if your heart is not in the right place. You know good ideas, right and creative ideas, you know, come to ruin and you know and, and sometimes they're successful, um, and we're and we're not happy because the heart, at the end of the day, your heart, has to be in the right place if you're going to experience the, the spiritual blessings of god in what you do, and so that's something that I'm big on and a proponent on.
Speaker 1You know, regardless of where you are and what you're, you know searching for focus on your heart. You know you should always take a few days out the month. You know sit and you know journal, whatever it is that you do, you need to have some way of. You know sit and you know journal, whatever it is that you do, you need to have some way of um. You know, knowing the condition of your heart, how is your heart today?
Speaker 2Tell us what you do so what I love to journal.
Speaker 1Yes, I love to journal and I don't have a specific time that I journal.
Speaker 1Um, sometimes, if I had time in the morning, I'll journal, but after I read a book I'll journal, or a lot of times it's good for me to kind of get my thoughts out before I prepare a sermon so that the sermon is not about me, right, you know, let me get. Let me get figure out where my headspace is right now and then I can work on this, this word, and not be focused on me. So that's one of the things that I love to do. I also like there is a like a centering prayer that I like to do. I think the term for it is Lectio Divino, but really it's it's a taking one scripture or one thought or something that you just want to focus on, and I'll take five to 10 minutes and I'm just either repeating that scripture or keeping that thought in mind and if something else comes into my mind, like, ok, let me refocus. But it's just kind of a meditation and that's something that I love to do because it's it's discipline for me to not think about other things.
Speaker 2Yes, that's all of us. You cannot be a driven woman in this day and age, managing all the things and not fight against the distractions that come in our own very mind. How many times have I sat down to meditate, as you're saying, and, oh, you need to, da-da-da-da-da, you need to da-da-da-da-da? To the point where I now and I used to say, okay, I'll just open the notes app on my phone and as they come up, I'll type it. Well, unfortunately now the phone has now oh, you got this email from this person. Oh, you got this text from this person, oh, and so now I got to put that away and go back to a little pocket moleskin and a pen that I keep with me in my purse, so when I have that, I can write it down real quick and then let it go. I needed a strategy that takes me away from the distractions that are going to come, because I am managing a household as a woman and a wife and I am managed corporately souls and assignments, as he's showing me what we're doing.
Speaker 1And.
Speaker 2I'm just all for this, yeah.
Closing Thoughts and Resources
Speaker 1And there's one last book, because you said something earlier that soul care. It's something that never gets old, right, that is something that we are constantly saying. There's a book called Strengthening the Soul of your Leadership and the author, her first name, is Helen I have to get her last name, but I read this book years ago. But I've noticed I've seen online this book is resurfacing. People are reading it and sharing it as a great book for not only just soul care but a lot of like disciplines, like just meditation, prayer. So if you're trying to figure out what your thing is and what grounds you, that book has really great suggestions, no matter what you know field you're in, but suggestions of how to really ground yourself, strengthening the soul of your leadership.
Speaker 2Strengthening the soul of your leadership Girl, okay. So look, I could talk to you for another month of Sundays for real. Yes, this is fun. You know, even in meeting you in a personal space, there was just something that radiated just around you and my, my soul felt very comfortable and connected, and I'm so grateful that you said yes to sharing in this community, in this podcast. I'd love to have you back. There's so many things we can absolutely and and so let's consider that, but until then, I am so grateful to you. I'm grateful for the work that you're doing. I'm grateful that you answered the call and said yes and that you were so vulnerable to share with us a little bit of your journey there. Thank you.
Speaker 1And thank you for having me. Likewise, I feel like when we met each other, it was, it was almost like destiny divine, and so I appreciate you having me and I would love, love, love to come back. So thank you.
Speaker 2See you later, girl. Yeah, thank you.