Lead Yourself First A Conversation with Kellogg School of Management Professor Michelle Buck

You can feel it everywhere: leaders are expected to move faster, decide with less certainty, and keep teams connected while AI reshapes how work gets done. I sit down with Michelle Buck from the Kellogg School of Management to slow the noise down and get practical about what actually holds up in turbulent times. We start with a leadership idea that sticks in your body, not just your notes: the music ensemble. One shared rhythm, many distinct instruments, and the real work of making space for every voice without losing alignment. 

From there, we widen the lens to the arts in leadership, including music, dance, and imagery, as tools for communication, resilience, and meaning. Michelle shares why leaders need more than words to create impact, and why joy and self-acceptance are not “soft” extras but real performance multipliers. We also talk about polarization, psychological safety, and the underestimated power of community, especially when people are stressed, overwhelmed, and trying to get by. 

The conversation turns personal and unforgettable as Michelle shares stories that shaped her understanding of resilience, including a lived lesson in gratitude and the grounding practice of “coming home to ourselves” through values, purpose, and non-negotiables. We close on what leaders should keep front and center right now: asking better questions, helping people feel seen and heard, and building the courage to have the conversations that matter. If this resonates, subscribe, share with a friend who leads people, and leave a review. What question do you need to ask your team this week?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Welcome, Michelle Buck.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Hello, Chantra.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Welcome to the Proven Not Perfect Village podcast. It is an absolute honor to be here with you in this place. I have to give a rose. I have to give several roses, a bunch of roses, because I don't know if you know this, but it wasn't until I sat in class with you that I began to unpack who I was as a leader. And I I wanted you to hear these words from me because so many of my colleagues in Kellogg and friends who've graduated from Kellogg, we show up, we're honored to be there, we're honored to be in such an esteemed network of individuals. And we did the things to get to that space. Me, I can honestly say that while I did the things to get there, that was a part of my journey where I did the unpacking. There was so much packed in there, such a quick pace, that I hadn't taken the time to really unpack and see what I had, see what the gaps were, and to really define the leader that I wanted to be. And because Kellogg took very seriously the leaders that we were becoming just as much as the leaders that we arrived being, um incredible. And that was 100% wrapped in the grace and the focus that you brought to leadership at Kellogg and still do today. So I just needed to give you that, Rose.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

I mean, we're really committed that people come for the curriculum and people come for the community to expand and deepen their relationships with others. But we also believe that, especially at the that level of education of the program that you were in, people are at a point in their life that they're thinking about who am I as a leader and what's next. And I've already achieved something. Like you wouldn't be there if you hadn't achieved something. But they're looking for more, looking for more in terms of what they can give and who they can be. So to be part of supporting that journey. And what we're really trying to do is set people up, not just for the time that they're there, which is a relatively short chapter, but to set a foundation that will then last a lifetime. And I have to tell you, speaking of giving a rose, and you know, in a way that I probably haven't had a chance to tell you, I wanted to share with you my impression of you, because it's not as if we ever had a long sit-down, one-on-one conversation. But my and I I have this image of you seeing you in the hall, not in the classroom, but passing by in the hall and stopping and saying hello. And I think of you as a strong woman. Wow. This is your presence, how I've experienced you. That confidence for me comes from an intentionality and that you're deliberate. Even when I didn't know what you're up to or what you're deliberate or intentional about, but you exude that. And at the same time, with that strength and confidence, I always felt that you were approachable and engaging and inviting and accessible. So I wanted you to know that. And that's the reason I'm so honored to be in conversation with you today and to be part of this important work that you're doing, not just for yourself, but for others, as a gift to listeners, to community, to those who are also on a journey of looking for more for ourselves and how can we give. So I thank you.

Music And Art As Metaphor

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Oh my gosh, thank you. Thank you. Received. That's that's the work, just to say received and thank you. Wow. So you all that are in the village with us today are really in for a treat because when I think about this idea of leadership and unpacking leadership and being mindful of the many sounds that we create as a collective, I can remember, Michelle, you you even brought it an example to us with music and with manipulatives. You were so good about allowing a very um uh diverse group of folks, right? Heavily leaning male and minority, but you found a way to allow us all to appreciate the uniqueness of our sound and to make space for all the sounds, no matter the smallest instrument or the largest, loudest instrument. And it didn't fall light on me, the big messages that you were bringing through manipulatives, through conversation, through music. Um, I'm now learning that music is incredible as we think about even our own mental health and our own resilience. Um, I I really would like to talk to you a little bit about um your your appreciation for music, the impact that it's had on your life, and how you think about music as growing executives and leaders. Why is that important?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Well, and and I'm just smiling outside and inside because so true. And you know, the the music ensemble metaphor, especially when we experience that viscerally, right, and experientially, but that idea of a music ensemble of everyone has their own voice, right? Each instrument has its own history, has its own sound, just like when people come together in community or in teams, everybody's got their story, everybody's got a history, everybody's got their own voice. And yet to do something meaningful together, in the end, we've got to be aligned, right? We've got to be playing the same rhythm or in work together for community or for organization, we've got to be aligned around some shared purpose. We do not want to be identical, right? It's the different sounds, the different voices that make it so beautiful. In terms of the role, I'll say not just music, but the arts in my life, but also in leadership and organization, because it's true using music ensemble, percussion ensemble in particular. But I also use Argentine tango to talk about the dynamics of leader. And also now use photography of having leaders express their vision of leadership. Because, isn't it true? Leaders need to talk, need to express themselves not only through words, through stories, through imagery, through metaphors, through symbols. So to have to think, how would I find an image that conveys what I'm saying? Because leaders will be have greater impact if they think, if they have many channels accessible to them to share their message. So the arts in general, you know, in terms of where did that come from in my life, I don't know. It just kind of feels like it was always there, you know, always an appreciation of that. And in terms of education, then I love to borrow wisdom or insight from as many different sources as possible. My my own academic training was not in business, it was in social psychology. There's a whole nother story of I never dreamed I'd be teaching in a business school.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Really?

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Oh, yeah. And that's been over 30 years now doing it, but that was not the plan. So there's a whole story there. But to draw from psychology and behavioral sciences and the arts and poetry and many different sources, we need as much wisdom as possible, right? We need insight, we need inspiration. The root of the word inspires to breathe life into. So we need energy. Um, for myself, I've always loved dance, like good music. And yeah, I can't, I can't stand still or can't I can't either. My husband Carlos is a musician, so it's interesting that um after waiting a long time to find my partner, my best friend, my husband, uh, now that's part of my life in a very integral way as well. And I think in the world we're living in right now, I mean, the arts are timeless in bringing people together. But we need spirit and we need soul and we need something that transcends, certainly that transcends differences. And isn't it true that the arts and music in particular is a universal language? People come together around that. So while it's timeless, I think it's extraordinarily timely right now. And it, you know, some people are nervous about oh, I can't keep rhythm or this or that. But then once you get into it and if you can have fun with it, yeah, right, it loosens something, it unleashes something. If people can, if we if we can put ourselves at ease, or if there's a leader or facilitator who can put us at ease, it brings us together and creates new possibilities. So those and joy, goodness knows we need as much joy, right?

Leading Through AI And Polarization

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Oh my gosh, when you say it unleashes something, I I almost, you know, just have this visual image of self-acceptance because what you see in the I can't dance or I can't play an instrument, but when you're in this experience where you just hear, you're listening, your your your senses are up, and you just let go, there's a self-acceptance that allows you to own the missteps as well to um receive when you got it right. And they're they're both things are very important. Um, and I think that was one of the big themes that you know I walked away with in some of the experiences with you. The also um, you know, I think we spend a lot of time unpacking a leader and the role we play and getting others to come with, to come along, to trust, to trust to be a part of it. Um, those are all big themes. And I think we we are in a time where I think there's such responsibility that comes with leadership. And I think also there's such a divide amongst us in how we think, just as people, right? We're getting so polarized. I am hopeful that there is this renaissance that pulls us together, that does become the convening force. I do believe it can be the arts, but I think there has to be those leaders that allow themselves to be that vessel, right? Um, I and so the work that you do, I think is is the worthy work. Um, how do you how do you reconcile leaders today um who are leading at a time where there's so many shifts that are happening, whether it's shifts in technology, um with AI being such a prevalent force for how things get accomplished and done? There's no right answer, there's no wrong answer, everyone's trying to figure out at the same time. I wonder in your leadership journey, um, both being a leader and teaching leadership to some of the most amazing leaders in the world, uh, can you think back of another time where it felt like this? Like I start thinking, is it 2008? Is it Y2K? Is it internet bubble? Like, when did we feel this before? Do you do you have a sense of that?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Great question. And you know, part of it is generational. So we need to keep in mind that some people in the workforce now, this is the first time that's right, they're experiencing this level of turbulence and uncertainty and not knowing what comes next. Yes. Um, I mean, AI, I I don't know, to me feels like something different in terms of for I'm really speaking for myself here, just this vast unknown in terms of where is this going to go.

unknown 13:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

In terms of, you know, have we been here before? I'm not a historian. I took my history classes a long time ago, but I love listening. No, but I love listening to historians who remind us, meaning, not just even in our lifetime, but there have been you know times of turbulence or change or something before. And what can we learn from that? So I'm I'm not really answering your question directly, but more just sharing the things that are coming to mind. Yeah, no, let me let me share one thing that comes to mind at the actually how many years ago now, at the uh beginning of the uh COVID pandemic when it was very early, the very total sense of is this the end of the world? Yes, you know, or some of us who were told, gather your things and go home, and we were thinking, oh, it'll be a week or two, you know, and I'll be back. So, you know, total unknown. But I remember hearing on the radio a story of some indigenous Native American tribes in the US who were being hit especially hard by the pandemic. And they gathered together, and this is the power of storytelling, but also remembering on whose shoulders do we stand and where do we come from? And they said, in our lineage, we've been through extraordinarily difficult things in the past, and we are here. And what did we learn from those who came before us? And we learned about coming together and sharing stories and remembering where we come from. So, again, I'm I'm turning from your question a bit, but more just sharing in the spirit of what comes to mind.

SPEAKER_02 15:30

Yeah, I I think I I just want to say one thing real quick, just because you reminded me of something that I forgot. In those early phases of COVID when we were all trying to figure out what was going on, there was a seeking of community and connection. There was this, I remember this app, Clubhouse, that, and I don't know if it that app still exists, but it really became this connecting, convening ground for folks to talk, to to to interact, to tell stories, yes, to share.

Values That Ground Uncertainty

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Um zoom happy hours just to be able to connect. Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, that's actually interesting. I'm just thinking of this as we're talking, as is the best in conversations, right? Of you know, maybe we need to be doing even more of that now. And yet we're in a time of such polarization that some people won't even talk to each other. But so often we have more in common than we realize. And there's actually some research coming out of Kellogg about disagreement and conflict, but collaboration and polarization, that very often we overestimate how much difference there is. And we over under overestimate if we speak up about something, will we be rejected? And we underestimate that it might not be as bad as we think. So easier said than done. But you're right, it's worth remembering that. And then the other thing about during times of just great uncertainty and and turbulence, volatility, and and this I'm speaking from my perspective, different people would answer this differently, of course, but my own work is so rooted in the power of self-reflection and self-awareness. And that is that when the world around us is unpredictable and we can't, we feel it's not reliable because we don't know what's coming next. I mean, remember too with the pandemic, you know, things were changing sometimes by the hour, not just by the day.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Take a vaccine, don't take a vaccine. Right. Go here, don't go here. Get this, don't get that.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

We're coming back to work, no, we're not, you know, all of this. And so when everything around us is unpredictable and unreliable in that sense, what can we return to? We always can come home to ourselves. And in that sense, who am I? What do I believe in? Yeah, what are my own values? Yeah, what are do I have any non-negotiables? I mean, companies and individuals had to change and adapt and be flexible, but there's some things we don't change, yeah. Right? Like, do I have non-negotiables? Or what is my purpose? Well, for like me per for me personally, if my purpose, part of my purpose is helping expand possibility in people's lives. Okay, I was doing that in the classroom. Now I'm gonna have to find a different way to do it. Companies, if they were about customer service, can't do it the way before, and have to find a new way. So uh again, one of my favorite phrases, timeless and timely. I think that power of self-reflection and self-awareness is timeless in leadership. But in times of uncertainty, it's more timely than ever, because we need to have something familiar that we can come back to. And it's a lifelong journey, of course, but to come back to those can give us a grounding. And for me, just anecdotally, I don't have data on this, but anecdotally, those individuals, those leaders who do have a strong sense of I know what I believe in, I know what purpose I want to contribute, wherever I show up, in whatever role, in whatever industry or sector, actually are able to be more responsive.

unknown 19:10

Right?

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Because when you've got some kind of grounding, right, then where can I turn next in some way? So those are some thoughts.

Pivots And Trusting Yourself

SPEAKER_02 19:19

I think, you know, uh so many things just come rushing back as I hear your voice and I hear your philosophy, and I think about some of the things that you inspired us to think about. One of those was our own family journey and understanding our family story. You really challenged us as leaders individually to tap into what we've been through, what our story is. Um, and and not to sort of, you know, have us unpack Trump and all the things that might happen, but more to have a grounding on where you're working from, right? And then you also really pushed us, and I do mean in some instances, you know, because it can feel more ethereal, the conversation, right? For some of us, we want to get in, give us the lessons, the hard notes. And what's the equation that gives the answer? Like, how do I give an A professor? And you were also because you you would not let us off the hook, no matter how much we wanted the concrete. You you forced, you forced probably the wrong word. You invited us, because I do believe that's the right word. You invited us to have a deeper understanding of who we were, so that when we showed up as leaders in the world, we would have a basis from which to operate. And I just attribute that to so many things. One of the things for me personally is always being that leader that's been called to the white space assignments or the fix or the build or the transform. I feel like I've mastered the pivots, right? And I've been thinking a lot about mastering pivots and the attributes that allow you to master a pivot. And I start with understanding your point and position. And that could be the same as a transformational change for a corporation where you're understanding your point and position, but that's also the same as a leader when you're making a change, right? Understanding your point and position because the same assignment every different time will still yet be different because you're different.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Oh my god. Like drill that into me. And that's incredible because it allows you, no matter how many times, I can I could pat myself on the back and say, at this point, you know, Dr. Bach, I have done so much in transformation change that I'm an expert. What I believe is because I've done so much in transformation change, I consider myself capable of figuring it out each time.

SPEAKER_00 22:12

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

And and that's different language, and I mean that language. I mean that language. And I challenge anyone that feels like they can go the other way, right? Right. Um, how does how does that resonate for you? Did I did I remember the right things?

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Did I think well a couple things. You know what? I was gonna say this is tribute to you and reflection back to you that that's what you took from it, because I don't recall ever saying those words. So that's like that's like a good conversation. In my opinion, that's like a good class, right? And and I love I love when you use the word invitation because I do like like I'm gonna put something out there. And everybody in the room, if it's a class, is at their point in their journey, right? So they're gonna hear what they hear at that point, which is different from someone else. So You took that and ran with it. And you generated that insight and that and that wisdom. And I I loved hearing it and I agree. What actually came up for me, um, but I'm I'm already losing the exact words that you said, but oh gosh, how what what did you say there at the end? Because it brought to mind for me in my own life, so not leadership in terms of our jobs, figuring it out, but yes, yes, and trusting ourselves to figure it out. So I've been learning about that in life, you know, that um family and medical issues and all of that, when it seems overwhelming and scary, and what comes next and what can I do? And I'm thinking of my amazing therapist, Kay, who actually is a psycho-spiritual therapist. So within our conversation, we just weave in what's my calling. And she's like an anthropologist of can say, well, in this wisdom tradition, they think about it this way or something. But one of the things, you know, when there's not like you say when there's not a clear right or wrong, when it's not figuring out the equation or the right thing to do, but it's just trying to discern where do I go from here, especially when we may feel overwhelmed or depleted at the time, harder to discern.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Which so many people feel right now, Michelle.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Oh, absolutely. And that's where self-free. Absolutely, absolutely. And so what I've learned, and I'm absolutely still learning, and I'll probably learn for the rest of my days, is that how do we figure it out as we go along? And how do we take the blessings of the experience that we've had, so challenges as well, but hopefully some insights and some lessons along the way if we've been reflecting or if we've had people who have guided us or steered us, you know, in some way. And what do I know now and what can I do now? And I myself get overwhelmed when I'm pulled in many directions at the same time. And I have a tendency to think far ahead, which I've been told is my blessing and my curse. Yeah. So it's helped me be successful in terms of planning. Yeah, but it also, you know, I'm thinking of different words, but scares the crap out of me.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

And I'm getting overwhelmed, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah. That can paralyze me then in terms of the present moment. We've all heard this live in the present moment, right? Easier said than done. But in the hardest times, I'm learning and I've been guided, it just comes back to what can I do right now? Not even tomorrow, not even an hour from now. But what do I know? What am I clear that I don't know? What information do I need to get? Who can help me? But is there something I can do right now? As simple as take a breath or step away, or get a cup of tea to reset, to reboot, right? In some way, rather than spinning my wheels. Anyway, I'm going in all sorts of different directions. Just trying to have a good conversation.

Resilience Basics Plus Real Recovery

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, no, this is this is so good. And I think that it's so relevant. I think just as much as this conversation around powering pivots that keeps calling me, um, I think what you're saying also speaks to preparing ourselves and and becoming more resilient. I know that you do work in thinking about and exploring resilience. Are there any new new ideas or opinions that you have as you think about resilience and unpack that more?

Rwanda And Moving Forward Together

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Well, one of them I just shared and we just discussed about, you know, there's sort of the long haul, the marathon idea, but sometimes you've got to break it down into right now and resilience. So forgive me for getting kind of academic in a moment, but for a moment. That's okay. And and then bring it back to the lived experience and the the right now and integrating that. But the the study of resilience, the science of resilience is a very interdisciplinary topic. So you can talk about it in terms of we need the basics that we all know, like sleep and nutrition and movement, to be able to be resilient. If we if we haven't filled the gas tank of ourselves, you know, we're not going to be able to respond or discern as well. And then my own training in social psychology, which is how do we interact, but also the cognitive part of how do we think about things, that resilience is a mindset. It's always looking. So there's lots of research that shows that those who are successful, and that of course depends on your definition of success, but who have impact or longevity in some way, are those who can learn from experience, both the highs and the setbacks and the challenges as well. So a mindset of okay, it didn't go the way I wanted, but what can I learn from this? How do I extract a lesson from it? What I've been learning in the past years that's humbled me is you know, it's it's one thing to study the academics and you know, our society energizer bunny, just go, go, go, go, go. But that rest and recovery is part of that as well. And I mentioned family things and medical, and for me, for my mom, a 20-year journey of her medical issues. Um, she passed in September 2022 after, I mean, she she is my role model epitome of resilience in terms of her journey and learned so much just by having the privilege of bearing witness to her journey. And you know, so I I study this stuff and can talk about the ability to keep going and everything. And I've I still don't know that I give myself sufficient break. I don't just mean with her journey, but in general, I'm still learning that pause is part of that, you know, and rest and stepping away because you've got to recover and refuel. So I'm I and I I can stand in front of a room and say that. And I'm still learning that and trying to put that into practice of finding that calibration and that that balance. Um, yeah, resilience, you know, just such an amazing topic. And I'm thinking, again, the where do we come from and our ancestors, blood ancestors, but those who inspire us as well, in terms of on whose shoulders do we stand and what can we learn. Can I share a story that comes to mind? Please, yes. Um, a story and an experience. So I mentioned my mother as my heroine of resilience in terms of what she experienced. I'm happy to talk more about that now or offline some other time. But the other thing that's coming to mind now is in 2010, I had the opportunity to go to Rwanda where in 1994 they had the horrific genocide. Yes. And I often share that my rational mind can't comprehend genocide, that almost a million people killed in a very short period of time. But in the years before I went, I was hearing about the remarkable transformation in the country in terms of healthcare and education and the highest percentage of women in parliament of any country in Africa. And I was just so intrigued of wanting to know more about this. And I met someone, I was a moderator on a panel, and Dale Dawson, one of the panelists, was doing work there. He had been a CEO and talk about pivots, trying to figure out what's next in life. And he found out about what was happening in Rwanda and got involved in the transformation there. And after the panel, I said, the panel was not about that. Um, I said, you know, how can I find out more? And he said, Come with me on my next trip. I'm like, oh my god, it's like I'm going in six weeks, come with me. And I couldn't then, but I also get for asking. Right, right. But some intuition said, This is a life opportunity you don't say no to. You find some opportunity. So I think it was six months later. I went with him and without having to teach or present. So the luxury of just being able to follow him on his trip and meet people there and witness what was happening in the country. And I was so blown away meeting people who had survived. And, you know, in this one cooperative women of women artisans working side literally side by side, shoulder to shoulder in some cases, with the women whose family member had killed their family member. And when asking, How do you do this? And they said, There's no other way to move forward. We must move forward together. I'm just mind-blowing. My rational mind can't couldn't comprehend the genocide, hard to comprehend, just only to be inspired by that. But the story that came to mind.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Would you say were they were they? I I guess what immediately comes to mind the question is was it from a place of forgiveness or was it from a place of the only way forward is together? So reconciling a true forgiveness is is is almost a non-issue. It's recognizing that we have a mission to move us forward. Which which would you say it came from?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

My understanding was the focus on the future. Now, from one individual to another, I think in some cases there's genuine forgiveness. And in others there may not have been. But it was almost like that doesn't even matter. There was not there's not forgetting. So even in the case of genuine forgiveness, there is not forgetting because the forgetting wouldn't allow us to move forward as strong, that's right as strongly in that way, but just kind of mind blowing.

A Mother’s Gratitude Mindset

SPEAKER_01 32:52

It's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Um I'd like to hear about your mom. I'd like to hear about her. You mentioned her as um as a hero and um in a lot of ways sustaining some of the lessons and resilience. Um, would you share any any any wonderful story or I'd I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

I'd be happy to. And um part one part of the story I share sometimes um in classes where it's relevant, and that's it took me a while. Sometimes it takes a while to get to a point that we can share a story um out loud. But the the background is I am just so blessed that my mother and I were always extraordinarily close, just extraordinarily close as friends, as well as mother and daughter. Um so I can't say enough. Uh she had a remarkable career as a journalist for the Chicago Tribune. So she had a very successful career. Oh my god. Um, so a real inspiration there and a role model in terms of a woman being successful and having a voice. Um so I just and I I learned about ethics and doing the right thing from her. I mean, as a journalist, there were times I I have to share this. This isn't about her journey of resilience in terms of her illness, but a favorite memory that I have. So this goes way back when journalists were still holding uh notepads and taking notes by hand, as opposed to even having a recorder or anything else. So there was a time that she was interviewing someone, and this man said something that my mom knew, like that he didn't realize that he was probably saying something that should be off the record, that it would be the headline the next morning. And he just was caught up in talking with her. So my mom had probably a headline scoop, but she knew that he probably didn't want to share that. It probably wasn't the right time yet. And she gave him a chance to withdraw by holding up her notepad visibly in his face and said, Let me get that right. You just said that you know, quarterly profits are whatever. Did I did I get that right? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's off the record.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

She gave up the short-term win, if you will. But guess what she gained in the long run? A reputation. She gained a reputation of being someone that people wanted to talk to. And then when someone did have news, they brought it to her for an exclusive. So I've sometimes shared this in terms of the story, right? The the short-term, long-term trade-offs of doing the right thing, let alone living with ourselves and living by our values, but really giving up a short-term win career-wise.

unknown 35:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Doing the wrong thing, and in this case, coming back to her in some way. But she would have done it even if it didn't come back to her. But I witnessed, yeah, that's that's why people wanted to work with you. That's why people then brought you news down the line, whether down the line was a month later or five years later. You know, whatever. So, so remarkable woman, blessed to be her daughter every day, even with her no longer in this physical earth, blessed to be her daughter. In October 2002, began the medical journey, uh, the health journey. And she was going in for surgery. We knew that there might be a tumor based on testing and symptoms and all of that. And it turned out to be worse than what we thought worst case scenario would be. Chantra, have you heard this story before? Did I share this with you or in the class? Okay, because as I say, sometimes I share this. I won't go into all the details there, but it turned out that there was metastatic cancer that they could not do any chemo or radiation for. There was nothing they could do. And they said, you probably have two or three years to live. And my mom, so my brother and I when the surgeon comes out too soon in terms of what they put how long they predict surgery will go, and says, Please come with me to a private room so we can talk. You know, something has not gone according to plan. But we see then mom in recovery. They keep her one night for recovery. My brother and I bring her home the next day. She's sitting in her favorite white chair looking out at Lake Michigan in East Lakeview in Chicago. And bandaged from surgery with this news, she looks at me and my brother and says, I am so happy that at a time like this I can be with my kids. I wish we had champagne to celebrate.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

And that moment, her journey changed my life because I felt something go through me that said, I come from that. We talked about knowing where we come from. Yeah, right? I come from a woman who, in the most difficult, darkest times of the darkest news, focuses on gratitude and celebration. And we raised that champagne flute, and we did many times over the years and continue to do so. Um, my brother brought the champagne out because I said, actually, it's chilled and ready to go. My mom almost always had chilled champagne ready to go.

unknown 38:11

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

And she insisted on standing. She raised the glass and she said, To life, to light. So we toast life a lot. And in the darkest times, darkest meaning the most uncertain times. We were talking about uncertainty before. Like, I do not know how to get through whatever is before me right now. I know where I come from and I celebrate life and celebrate what we do have, whatever the circumstances are in that moment. So, in terms of mom's journey of resilience, um, they said two or three years, she went on to live just shy of 20 years and did not die of the cancer. She had so many other things along the way, in terms of kidney issues and heart issues and chronic infections and all sorts of things where they said the the cancer is the least of your worries right now.

unknown 39:04

Incredible.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

For a long time, she had a descent with dementia, which is awful. Um, and it was a long prolonged descent, which of course is a blessing that we were with her longer, but it's also even harder to lose someone, lose part of them while they're still here. That that wouldn't trade a day.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

But um, and you know, through all of that, uh she just, I mean, yes, there was pain, yes, there were difficulties. I'm not saying that she never experienced that or that we didn't as well. But uh I I just think of her and I think of gratitude and celebration, you know, and when she could hardly speak, I'd bring her a Starbucks latte, you know, and big smile comes to her face, or I'd bring her fresh flowers because she taught me the importance of beauty as a key source of life and vitality and gratitude, and that would bring the smile to her face. So I could go on and on, but those are the things that come to mind right now. But her physical resilience, but also the mindset of gratitude and celebration and to life, um is part of who I am because I come from her.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

I see it. I see, I see that being the basis of the philosophy that you carry into um your leadership training and um inspiration to others. It's it's incredible how what's in us is in us. And it it if you allow it to, if you allow yourself to step confidently into who you are, you can't help but have all those things that were tucked in there, yeah, positive in there, come out. Right. That's so much of what I see.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

But here's the thing easier said than done when we're on the treadmill of life and pulled in so many different directions. It requires the pause. Whether that pause is prayer or meditation or journaling or a run or a walk or just one moment, right? And like I say, I am at my worst when I feel pulled in many directions, when a number of things feel like top priority. You know, what do I do first?

SPEAKER_01 41:26

I feel it. I feel like the hair is on my neck, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like I'm not proud of how I get um in those moments. And you know, life experience, humbling, I'll speak for myself, humbling me. Right. And just trying to remember that in the hardest times is when it's most important to take a pause. And I don't mean a three-day retreat, which would be nice, right? But really, even a momentary pause to get perspective on that. Because when we can access those things or calling, you know, the kind of friend, right? The kind of friend that you haven't talked to in a long time, but you pick up right where you left off.

unknown 42:01

100%.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Like if we're blessed to have someone like that in our life, um, or for me, my husband Carlos, you know, always helps me regain perspective. Always willing to listen to me. I mean, sometimes I just need to unload and vent.

unknown 42:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

He's the most patient listener. And that that's a release as well. Anyway, I'm going in a lot of different directions.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

There's so many good things here. All right. So I know that I cannot have you all afternoon unless I'd like to, and I'm sure many of my Kellogg colleagues are enjoying even hearing more about you, the essence of you, um, because often we don't pause. Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Um completely losing track of time.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Because it should be, you know what I call it, the proven number of villages should be timeless. Like I can even think about it in the earliest sense of women in villages on a 30-day basis, right? And in those villages, they would go in the tent and they would probably lose.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

You know, I can't hear you. Okay. Yes, yes. Yeah, that's the beaming of your face. That's the energy that I'm losing. Oh, but I can feel it.

Questions That Keep Us Human

SPEAKER_02 43:24

Um good. All right, here's my question for you.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Um, in the context of leadership leaders today and all of the things that are happening, on the side of resilience, what do you think are one of the big themes, key themes that we need to keep on our radar as we lead ourselves and lead others into this next next future?

SPEAKER_00 43:47

Um, I'm not saying this is the answer. It's what's popping to mind first.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

And that is the power of asking questions, which is related to reflection. But here's the thing: a lot of people now are talking about oh, a leadership skill is asking the right questions in terms of what questions do you feed Chat GPT? Or what like that's true. That that is a skill, right? Because the questions we ask determine the information we get back. But I mean more broadly in terms of reflection or the questions we ask of each other, right? Um, you know, like leaders asking their teams, what do you need? How can I help? What have I missed? What do I not know that will help me support you or will help me for us to be better in some way? As well as big, unanswerable questions of you know, what do we need to be focusing on now? I heard a question recently, and I wish I could remember where I heard it, because I would give attribution, which I believe in, but it's just sort of in there for any individual to think about what is your work right now in your life?

unknown 44:54

Right?

SPEAKER_00 44:54

Like, like not your job. It might it might be part of your job.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Might be. It might be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

But

SPEAKER_01 45:01

What's your work? What's your work?

SPEAKER_00 45:02

What's your work?

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Which for some individuals will have spiritual connotation. Right. Like for me, like how now do I best follow my calling?

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

When I could when I could turn in many different directions in terms of even just projects in front of me. So so coming back to your question, what do leaders need to have on their mind or be in front of them? Yes, resilience. Um asking questions. And then the taking care of ourselves and taking care of our teams. Right? Because in an age of AI, right, the the speaking of questions, the questions that everybody's asking directly or implicitly is what is truly human? Like what remains truly human. And to engage in that reflection, to be living that question means we've got to take care of ourselves, right? So looking out for our team because people, I mean, I mean, to say people are stressed is an understatement. Right? To say people are overwhelmed, to say people are concerned about their families and many people just worried about getting by. You know, so looking out for each other. Um and I and I remain believing that one of the most fundamental human things outside of work, but let's apply it to leaders in the workplace, is human beings want to and need to feel seen and be heard and be acknowledged. And the faster we go, the easier it is for that to just uh not be put aside intentionally, but just be assumed in some way. And that's part of what keeps us human, that we we yearn for that acknowledgement. And people are willing to do so much more when they feel seen and heard and acknowledged. So to remain human to each other is is what's coming to mind.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

And and and other colleagues of mine would talk about all sorts of other things, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Oh, I'm sure. And they're all and they're all good, they're all valid. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

And that's why we talk to as many people as we can. But these are the things that are most on my mind and that I'm most present to, both in terms of leaders thinking about what do they need, what do they need to do, but also hearing from workers in terms of what are they yearning for. And Sharandra, if I can say, if I can just bring in one thing that's on, well, the this too is not new necessarily, but one area of my work that I don't know if we got to talk about before, um, the what's your story, the self-reflection, self-awareness, resilience, you know, we've talked about, but the other area for me is courageous conversations.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

Yes, I we did talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 47:44

We did, okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

I use some of that, and I still use some of that just in the last couple of weeks, quite frankly. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

So I've I've been working for a long time on a book proposal on that. And that's always been important, but more than ever, given the world around us, we need people speaking up about the issues that matter. And more than ever, people have a lot of incentive to keep their head down, not rock the boat. I mean, people are worried if I put forward an idea or challenge the status quo or challenge an assumption, you know, will I be the next one to be let go in some way? Um, so you know, creating that compassionate yet fierce environment, fierce in the sense of being bold in pursuing possibility and addressing what might be possible, but compassionate and supportive, again, coming back to having each other's back in some way.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

I think it goes back to, and I have to just acknowledge this, the values portion, because when you're really clear on what your values are, where your integrity lies, then you you somehow transcend the fear that comes with the conversation, because it's just about the integrity that says, my values are this, and the right thing to do is this. And for me, that's when it transcends the the scariness of the courageous in the conversation, right? Um, and so I would, if if anybody um would uh would would be interested in learning more about leadership, leadership philosophies, well, first and foremost, there's the absolute best business school in the world that you can do your best to show up as a leader that they're calling for. Um Kellogg School of Management, I think Barnun not only gives you the analytical viewpoint, it gives you the global viewpoint, it gives you the tech high-end piece, but it also gives you the groundedness and I think the foundation of being an excellent leader. Um, that was my commercial, Dean.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Love it, love it. Totally, I totally agree. This is this is my, I think it's my 27th year at Kellogg.

Where To Follow Michelle

SPEAKER_02 50:13

From Kellogg. So, you know, not everybody will have the privilege of going there, but I know you said you're working on a book project. Do you have books that are already published? I would just really love for those that are listening around the world who um can have access to some of your philosophies and ideas um to have access to what's publicly available.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, I working on the first book. So when that comes out. And I I need to get, I'm planning on getting my own website, but don't have one yet. Okay. So where I sometimes post things in terms of articles is LinkedIn. Perfect. So to have people follow there and posted some articles in Fast Company and things like that. Um, so and then just stay tuned for more news to clear.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Michelle Buck, um, Kellogg School of Management, and I think thought leader and thought instigator, I'm gonna say, as it relates to me, um, on all things leadership, you are a true gift to all of us that have had the privilege of sitting in your classroom and bumping into you in the hallways. You are as generous and tender and strong as you are in this conversation. This is you in the classroom. It's all those things together. Um, you you you bring a sense of we all belong. Every one of us, no matter how majority or minority, you but you make us all know that we all belong. And it's important to understand that. And you're just amazing. The world needs more of you. So we're waiting on that book. I might have to be your accountability partner there because I'm looking for that. Ask me.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

But but I just got to say, Chandra, again, back to you and where I started out in terms of my impression of you. Um, strong, giving, intentional, making a difference, making impact. Like I know that's happening even when I don't know what the impact is. Like that's just who you are and how you show up. And I want to just share too about the classroom. You know, the thing, the the reason I'm so blessed to have been doing the work at Kellogg as long as I have is it, as you know, it attracts a wide variety of leaders, right? Leaders in business in the sense of corporate life, but also people in government and doctors who are and and people in bio and pharma and all that who are doing life-saving work, and social entrepreneurs entrepreneurs, period, and social entrepreneurs and social impact and nonprofit leaders and all coming together and doing their thing. And it's just an extraordinary environment to be in. So I I learn every time I'm in the classroom, yeah, I learn, and I'm grateful for that. And I, you know, my my prayer every time I go in is that I can offer something and I definitely always receive as well. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Oh my gosh, this is so good.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Y'all need to follow share this because this is a good one. That's all I'm saying. Thank you again. I will see you soon. I will not go too far away. I promise you. You're amazing.

SPEAKER_00 53:16

Don't even dare, and let's continue the conversation sometime. You take good care.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Thank you.