05. Our journey of what led us into energetics and spirituality.

Our stories of what led us into energetics and spirituality. Talking about tools we have gathered and our experiences through life's challenges. 

Jessica shared how healing herself from a re-curing brain tumor is one of the gateways to her experience with energetics and spirituality. 

Amanda shared her introduction to energetics was not from a specific moment but rather a deep knowing of who she was. She recalls there was always someone in her life that knew some form of energetics and was inherently curious. 

We pulled two oracle cards. One of the mantras shared was "I remain calm and in control of myself when the unexpected occurs, I know that dealing with the unforeseen is a bliss offered to me as divine providence."

Sharing the idea that if we think we have all the answers we limit our vision, and our ability to see. Allowing ourselves to open up to the idea of learning and growing and being a student of life gives us the opportunity to discover that we don't know, what we don't know.

When we surrender ourselves to something outside of us, we are forgetting that you have all the answers. You are giving your power away.  Who I am has more power over anything. 

The  idea that is alchemy is manifestation.  And trusting that everything in our life is in service to us.

Resources: 

Video on Gaia, The Power of The Heart

Book: You can heal your life, Louise L.
 Hay

Oracle Cards: Deck was Sufi Wisdom Oracle by Rassouli

Two cards pulled: First was Do Not Be Frustrated
"Where is a rose without a thorn" Feeling unusually frustrated and irritable is an indication that you are burned out.

Second: Deal With The Unexpected
The unexpected events in life are gifts to us, can we see the wisdom they hold?

Transcript

Unknown: 0:05

Hi there, we know that what is personal is universal. I am Amanda Loveland. And I am Jessica devenish. Welcome to the conversation. Good morning. Good morning. How are you today? I'm good. I'm good. Good, how things good. I think it's good. I'm good. Great. Actually, it's been a busy week, we had my husband's 50th birthday party, which was amazing and wonderful. And looked amazing. And that I had to miss it. I know, I was sad that you had to miss it, too. I really spending time with my people brings me deep joy. And by people, I mean, all the people, all the people and not just like five or like 500 people have right we move in herds. That's kind of the joke of our family. Yeah, we move in herds. That's so funny. I love it. I love it. I love where there's one of us. There's seven and 10 and 20. There's 22 in my immediate family. So we Yeah, there's a lot of us. So but it was a great. So it was great. Good. graduations over may seems to kind of seem like such a busy month for me. I don't know about you. Yeah. But it just seems like me is on fire. Well, I felt like this year, it's been busier than previous years. And I feel like a lot of people have said that too. Because I know going into summer and I don't know there's something about I mean, granted, we just had one Eclipse now we're this Thursday is a solar eclipse. I saw so tomorrow for us, because we're recording right now. And I just I don't know, I feel like it was just intense when anything seemed busy compared to 2020. Yeah, but even before that, I don't remember feeling like you know, those moments where you're like, did I breathe? You know, you need to catch your breath. Like that's what I I feel like I've been I've been noticing that lately. Yeah. Yeah. Focus with my kids. Like, I feel like right now. I'm on my way. Okay. My kids are my priority. So I'm taking very little clients right now. Summer schedule. Yeah, yeah, but more. It's different than it has been in the past. So I don't know why. I don't know why for me, but I'm just trusting it. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love to plan parties. And I have another one on Saturday. So that's like three in the last three weeks. You're like, ah, why not gather other people? It brings me joy. I love that. If we're gonna live a life of joy and things that bring us happiness, then, yeah, meaning no kidding. And luckily, my husband, he's a great host with me. Not so good. So he kind of have our routine. So we have people over, you know, he has his setup, I have mine. And yeah, it works out works. I love that. So I felt to draw cards today. I love it. Is that okay? If I read please do so the intention of the cards that I drew, this is from the Sufi wisdom Oracle. And there's a lot of Rumi quotes. And that's, it's, it's mainly roomy in here. And it's one of my favorite Oracle decks. If you don't, if you don't know anything about Oracle, or Tarot, and actually, we'll maybe we'll touch on it afterwards. Because Yeah, we'll touch on it afterwards. But the first card that I drew and the intention was a card for two cards that would be in the best and highest good for everyone. So for everyone listening for Jessica and for myself, as well. So the first card that I got was Do not be frustrated. And we'll post this so you can you can see it but it says let go and feel peaceful. And it says Don't be so troubled by the winds of fall in the meadow of life Come to your senses, whereas a rose without a thorn. Feeling unusually frustrated and irritable is an indication that you are burned out, your body may be overwhelmed from life stresses, and you may be missing love and excitement in your life. Half is I don't know how to pronounce his name h AFZ. refers to this state as the winds of fall in the middle of life. This is when we are tempted to run away from others and hide in our own bubble. We forget about the physical, social and spiritual resources available to us. Half is comes as the Oracle to help you recognize there will never be a time when life is simple. You will find peace of mind only when you accept there is no need to yearn and be and grab for what you want. Every moment is a chance to simply let go and feel composed and peaceful. Let that be your centering renewal. And the mantra I'm actually not going to read the rest of this. But the mantra as I'm letting go of what disturbs me and causes me pain. I am determined to overcome the challenges and leave me feeling that leaves me feeling stuck, frustrated and hopeless. I will be more open to my heart and to experiencing the joy of life. So there's that one. Beautiful like that. I was actually thinking on the way over here about this saying we don't see We see life as we are. Uh huh. Oh yeah. So it's interesting that you pulled that card. Yeah, I know it's always These are so perfect. So it is so the second one is deal with the unexpected treat the unforeseen as a divine offering. Oh, sudden resurrection. Oh, boundless Providence, you appear into flames to burn the jungle of thoughts. You come blissfully to free us from shackles. You appear to the destitute as Divine Providence and that's Rumi. There are times when we are deeply involved in what we are doing and suddenly something unforeseen happens and a wrench is thrown into our lives. Many people crumble under this unfamiliar pressure. Rumi is coming to you with a loving heart to gift you the freedom to use unexpected happenings as an offering of grace. He wants you to trust that they pour out as blessings from the benevolent and generous source from which we come. Take the unexpected as a call to be master of your own fate. When you follow your heart's guidance, your success is an event in inevitable, you learn to respond to whatever comes. This Oracle is here to support you in connecting with your inner truth. See and treat the unexpected problems as an opportunity in disguise. Use your intuitive to grasp how you can cope under pressure. Let it develop your leadership skills. By trying to maintain a positive attitude even in the face of adversity. You will have faith in yourself that you will be ready for all things to change at any time for things not all things for things to change at any time. Dear one, life has offered you everything with open hands, accept the gift and grow into the depth of the alluring mystery that pursues you in every moment of your life, to give up and let go of the path in the face of complications as a result of a lack of faith. surrendering into the arms of mystery is the remedy you have been chasing through your dreams. Dare to surrender to the ups and downs of life and know that a glory greater than paradise awaits for you. And the mantra on this one is I remain calm and in control of myself when the unexpected occurs. I know that dealing with the unforeseen is a bliss offered to me as divine providence. I love that I liked both of them. I think they're really good reminders. You know that last one? We forget sometimes that life is always in service to us, even when there's wrenches thrown in. It's always in service. You know, just when wrenches are thrown in, right, you're like the mother. Because it's ever changing, right? Always Well, sometimes those wrenches are thrown in to actually get our attention. Because sometimes we like to put our heads down and we're going, going, going, going going, and then something gets thrown in. It's like, wait a minute, where are you going? Do you know where you're going? Yeah, you know, it's just that moment to stop and pause. Well, I think a lot of times we're in the trenches, you got your head down, you're shoveling your trenching through your life. And you're so focused on what's right in front of you, if you don't look up, he could be off course a little bit. So yeah, I think it's important to pause. Yeah. And that's when the wrenches like Oh, wait, you don't run into something that's makes me need to look up on this reminds me a little bit of that, that quote that I posted. And you said, all we should talk about this on the podcast is that the more that I learned, the more I learned. No, that I don't know where I'm learning that I don't know. And it's the same adage of my friend and I were talking about this at breakfast yesterday, with when we think we have all the answers we limit, right? We limit our, our vision, our ability to see, it's like when we kind of go into that space of I don't know what I don't know. And we allow ourselves to open up to, to always learning and growing and being a student of life. I love that quote. Actually, that's why I wanted you to share it. Yeah, I know. I saw it after Michelle and I were talking about that was one of the many things we talked about yesterday. And I'm like, Of course I'm seeing this right now because we were just talking about that. So Oh, have you When did you so tarot cards were one of those things that I was leaving Mormonism that came in that it was like, I'm not supposed to do these. And they were such a godsend. Like I would pull a card every morning and I was like my world was falling away. And my god died. Like the connection to you know, whatever that source infinite source. You know, that connection was dying. I didn't know. I just didn't, I felt alone. And I had one deck. It's actually I don't know if I have it over there. It's a really interesting deck that that was the one that I chose. But anyway, I would draw a card every day. Just show me a card for my best and highest good. And every time it was it would like speak so deeply to my heart that I was like it felt like my angels were talking to me and so I didn't feel alone. So they were such a deep comfort to me and then now I'll use it as tools in sessions or you know, even just personal like, I I feel stuck. Show me show me something that I show me what I need to look at, though. Are you a big Tarot Oracle card lover? Yeah, I've always loved Oracle cards. Remember, I don't have any religious foundation. So for me, I was open to all of it. I didn't have anything that made me led me to believe that oh, I shouldn't look into that. Or, or that's of the devil. Yeah, like I was gonna say sin, right? That's a sin to be looking at that I never had any of that. Like, if you look into that, then it's a dangerous ground. For me. It was all open and ready just had this. Like, I didn't have a Christian religious foundation. I had a Christian spiritual foundation in that I didn't have any like, there was nothing that was infallible. I could ask anything. Yeah, I could look at anything growing up. I didn't love that. I always felt like I was the odd man out because everyone always had their church conversations. And even though I had spiritual experiences, I didn't have the religious slash church. Right? experience. Yeah, so I didn't love that growing up. But I certainly love it. The older I get, because not to say I don't have anything to unlearn. But I don't have any deep religious unlearning, that needs to happen. So for me, tarot cards were like, Oh, sweet, sweet. Tell me more. I don't know what I don't know. Right. So tell me more same with crystals or any of those kinds of tools. Right. And they are just tools. That's it. That's the cool thing is they're just tools. Yeah. Well, same with muscle testing, or any. It's all tools. Yeah. So I love Taro carts. I started I think the first deck was the top is at the top Daya, which I really loved. Super cool. And then I think my favorite deck right now is probably the medicine. The animals. Oh, yeah. You know, you bought brought that to when we went to Sedona? Oh, I love that book, or those that has a book and it has those with those cards. Maybe I'll post that on the Facebook page. So what I love, I love the tariffs. So would you say that you've all always been spiritually minded then like Have you always been curious and into the energetics? Or is there something where it just kind of like pushed you into it? I've always been curious about it, for sure. The thing that I did have a situation push me into it. It's kind of a long story. So I can share it a little bit longer. It's up with Well, I'm totally fine with that as I like blah, blah, blah. Cuz I had five different things come into my head. Of course, well, it's kind of what we're talking about, you know, those wrenches those those moments that happen that kind of guide you in a direction usually it's something dark, dark night of the soul for some people or some dark experience or some tragedy, some hard thing happened. That made you find something that helped you so for me, I was engaged to get married. In a month, I had been engaged for like seven months. But I hadn't been feeling very good. And so I had gone to the doctor and the doctor was just kind of brushing me off. And I finally had gotten to a point where I was just, I just didn't feel good. And even though all the tests, quote looked fine. In my heart, my intuition was something was wrong. Now this was when you were engaged to Kelly, right? Yes. And this was in 1994. So we were getting married on June 25. And it was the middle of May. Yeah. And I finally just broke down on my doctor. He's like, Okay, tell me everything. So I kind of explained every fine new little detail that wasn't 100% and he said, it was the headaches that really were the incessant repetitive experience. So he's like, let's schedule an MRI. Yeah. So we scheduled the MRI. I had a pituitary brain tumor. So I had brain surgery on May 27. I was getting married on June 25. Mm hmm. So and you're How old? I was. 21. Yeah. Wow. And you know, pituitary controls all of your hormones, her thyroid, your hypothalamus, everything. You know, they're like, I don't know if we'll be able to have children. Even if you have children on off, you're able to breastfeed, and here I am getting getting married. So I'm, I'm young, and I'm dramatic. And I'm like, you don't have to marry me. Well, I think any girl No, yeah. And of course, he was beautiful and said, I love you and I want to marry you and we'll get through this together. And yeah, anyway, so I had brain surgery. I got married a month later. Really quite ridiculous. I should have waited. My mom was like, just wait until the fall and maybe you'll feel a little better. No, I'm had that headstrong, like, Yeah, no, if I push forward and I have something to look forward to. Yeah, and it will help me heal faster. And I did heal fast. I mean, it was only an ICU for like four days. I was expected to be there for 10 days. I addressed my wedding invitations in ICU. Are you serious? Now some people are wondering Well, did they had to shave your head? Right? And you're getting married? No, they didn't. It's called transsphenoidal. So they go right above your teeth. Oh, really. And they literally, literally flip your face off and go direct in because your pituitary is right in the center of your brain right behind your eyes in the middle of your head. Uh huh. Now the pineal sits here, and then the pituitary is behind it, right? the pituitary is just right in the center right behind your eyes. So is the pineal the one that's connected to the third eye then? Yes. And the pituitary is behind it? Yes. Where the pituitary is where you had the pituitary tumors where it was? Yes. Okay. So they go in, they take it out. And the crazy thing is, I didn't let them take any pictures. I knew I was gonna be black and blue. If you ask my family what I looked like, like, oh, man, I wish I would have let them take pictures. Right. But yeah, I don't I don't I never looked in the mirror. Because I think that actually helped me heal really quickly. Yeah, because you don't have that in your head. I didn't have Go ahead. I mean, I was black and blue, both eyes, like it was. Anyway, so I had a pituitary brain tumor that I hadn't removed. And with those kind of tumors, they want you to see an endocrinologist because there could be other add nomis like on your thyroid. So I get home from surgery. I'm doing great. I'm getting married in a month, and I'm planning all the things and they want me to go see an endocrinologist. It's two weeks before my wedding. And they find a tumor on my thyroid. Oh, my goodness. And I just said, I am getting married and going on my honeymoon. I will see you when I get back. And so I got married. It was a beautiful wedding. I wasn't 100% I really wish I would listen to my mom. I wish I would have waited. But I didn't. I was young and stubborn. Anyway, so I had my thyroid removed. After several inconclusive biopsies. A year later, I had my half of my thyroid removed. And then back to the MRI of the brain tumor. They had to do that every year. Yeah, I wanted to do that every year, every six months, actually, for the first few years. Well, so I went back and it had been a little over a year. And I had another I have a second a reoccurring pituitary brainstorming demo. And in comes the world of energy healing, because I just had a knowing that this is not a physical issue. I feel like there's something more. They wanted to schedule surgery. And I said, No, I'm 22. Now, almost 23. And I just said, I, my mom of the grace of my husband and my parents who trusted me to say, if that's what you feel like you need to do, then we'll give you that space. Yeah. So I started on this energy path. I've met a woman, we did energy healing. And that's kind of where mediumship was also. I mean, I already had that when I was younger with my grandma, right, talking to my grandfather when he passed over. But I I really had some amazing experience with guardian angels and family members who had passed on and energetics. The emotional healing experience. That's where Louise l hay. I was introduced to that book. Yeah. And I read that book cover to cover and if you know Louise Hay, she was sexually molested as a child, she had breast cancer. Her story is quite traumatic. And she overcame all those things with the power of emotional healing. Hmm. So I did that for a solid year, I didn't see any doctors. I was all in for a year when I went back a year later to do the second MRI or the third MRI at this point. It was 100% gone. Wow, there was zero brain tumor. The doctor was stunned work. I've never seen this before. Now in 1996. Right? You're not telling anyone what has just happened, right? You're gonna get put in a straight jacket and you're going straight to the mental health. Like I use the power of energy and emotional healing and right nowadays people talk about self healing and yeah, it's accepted. Yeah, yeah. So at that time, I knew, I knew I'd experienced it. Right. So that was my introduction to what kind of a healer was that woman do you know? You know, I don't even know if there was a specific modality that she practiced practiced as that time. Yeah. And interestingly enough, honestly, then I got my I was pregnant. My first child started my first business, and I really kind of put this energetic experience this emotional health on a shelf. Yeah. Hmm. Interesting, right. I just put it on a shelf until 2009 when I had diagnosed with adrenal fatigue. So I was I started back into looking into people to help me right and quickly thought, I, I don't want to rely on anyone else. I want to, I already healed myself from within. Right? I need to know more about that. Right? So that's when I started doing chakra classes and energy classes and learning all the learning all those things. And so the woman that you met back then how did you get introduced to her like, did you Was it one of those things that you were looking for someone or it she just popped into your life? It was like, she just popped into my life. A friend of a friend was like, you should see. Yeah. I think her name was Julian, you should see Julian. Hmm. And so of course, you're like, dun, dun, dun, dun. I knew I didn't want to have surgery. I couldn't tell you why. Yeah, there was just some knowing in me that I knew that there was something emotional. And through all of that, you know, if you look up Louisa Hayes description of brain you know what your switchboard thyroid is more of? I think it's intimidation or humiliation, something like that. I think the other one was, oh, and I had had my ovarian cysts. I mean, I was 21. And I'd already had my appendix ruptured, I had ovarian cysts twice. So I kind of look into all those things. And all those emotional experiences rang true to me. Yeah. I mean, I had a relationship with a boyfriend in high school, which was a very traumatic for me emotionally exhausting. I won't, I won't share that story. But all those all those emotional experiences was they all ring true? Yeah, they all resonated with me. So I knew there was a healing that despite the disease, the disease, I had to go deep go into the layers of those emotions. Yeah. And kind of unwind them, forgive myself for those things. Forgive the people maybe who had harmed me that it created those emotions. And that's, it was, it's fascinating, I think, gosh, I mean, I was so young Amanda. I didn't really didn't even know what I had done. And yet, you did have like this innate knowing. Yeah, that was just with you, which I think is super cool. And you listened. Yeah. Especially back then. Like you're saying it was like, that wasn't like a socially acceptable thing, not like it is now. And depending on your circles, but well, and that I had, I had the love of my husband and my parents. Yeah. That didn't debate me. Mm hmm. You know, they didn't they didn't fight me. They didn't question me. They just loved me enough to trusted you. I trust that. Yeah. That's so and I'm grateful for that. No kidding. Because you know what, I have had a second surgery. And then, and I'm grateful that I had the surgery. I'm grateful that I mean, the doctors were amazing. And anyway, but I think it goes to those those wrenches, those dark moments. like holy crap, yeah. That make you stop. rethink your path. rethink your experience and make a change? Yeah, for sure. Go within. So fast forwarding to today, like how much are energetics or all of these tools a part of your life now? More and more all the time? Yeah. More and more all the time? I mean, they I think it's just part of my nature. I don't. It's part of my everyday life. Yeah. Don't you think? Isn't it? Isn't that true for you? Oh, my god, it is my life. But I think the fundamental core of all of us that is we're seek everyone is a seeker. Well, some people don't choose that in each lifetime. But I do feel like everyone's always looking for something that spiritual connection, really to find themselves. And the only way we can find ourselves is when we unravel when we remove the layers, remove the veils, and go into those really dark places to go heal what needs to be healed so that you can bring everything to the light. Well, and I really do believe energy is everything in everything is energy. Oh, it is Sciences is proving that. Well, there. There's so much proof now. Yeah, that and people think that that's new age. Well, from what the 1900s like, I guess it's new age 120 years later. Okay. So there's a really cool, it's a little tricky to do. But you know, the divining rods that will create so you can actually make them out of coat hangers, like metal coat hangers. And it was actually BYU Idaho teacher that had taught his classes and it's kind of just spread. But you can have hold these hangers and actually walk towards some someone and have them say, My name is Joanna. And they would cross over and make an x because it's not true. You can have the same thing with Okay, my name is Amanda and they would open up right and show that Okay, that's true. But if I say I am Amanda, then it goes crazy wide, like really wide. So So that one is kind of fun to do with kids with like younger people because they're here is something that's in the physical showing energetics of our words. But our words actually hold energy, we hold energy to what we're talking about. And it's a really, it's a really cool exercise. There's also one that you can, you can put someone in the middle of a circle and tell everyone not to communicate a word but hold certain Positive thoughts or negative thoughts toward that person and they will feel either one. And I don't like to do this exercise because anyway, I mean, they will start crying because you can feel the negative energy that that is, you know, anyway, but I energetics are fascinating. They're beautiful. They're there. I don't know. It's just, it's it is for me it is my world. So how, how did you get introduced to energetics? Like what was your shift? What was your big moment? You know, I don't know that I had one significant moment. And I think similar to you, I was just wired came into this life, I think with a lot of knowing of who I was, which rattled, you know, as I've had to go back and do healing with different dynamics with my family system. And, you know, I was born shortly after my brother had died. My mom was pregnant with me when my brother drowned. And I feel like as I would do different levels of healing, and I was always there's always someone in my life that the knew some form of energetics. And I was just always really curious. And, and I think I shared this on other podcasts, you know, I wanted out of high school, I didn't want to go to college, even though that was my dad, this is my inheritance to you is to pay for your schooling. And he was so adamant on that. And, you know, he wanted the best for his kids. And that's what he thought was the best. So when I wanted to go to college or massage, massage therapy, it was like, absolutely not, there's no way and, you know, for for a time, I definitely did, I, I turned off. It was years later that I realized at age 19, when my dad's voice was louder than mine. And even though I knew what I wanted, like I was very, very much knew who I was and what I wanted in my life. And my dad's voice was louder than mine. And I love my dad, he's passed away, we still have a great relationship. We had a great relationship then. And he's human, and he was doing the best that he could. But it was years later in a session where I recognized I at that moment that I chose my dad over my me what I felt like I knew I, I turned off my heart in a sense like that my heart knew what to do in life, like what I wanted when I was in a crate. And I at that moment for quite a while I started listening to other people's voices more than mine. So it still go through and learn different energetics. You know, I shared I was diagnosed bipolar. And so that was one area of opening with energetics. Like there were so many different facets, but really, it was an the biggest catalyst for me was 2012. And for most people that are around our age 2012 was a big opening for a lot of people, a lot of transformation, a lot of change. And I was learning Reiki at that time. And that was I think the first time where there was a physical modality that I was starting to open up to within my own body and understanding what my innate gifts were and really reawakening right when we step into any of those pieces, it's it's already innate wisdom that we carry, it's just reawakening those parts of us and so like that was a pivotal pivotal moment. Me Now understanding Look, I have my internal compass that is very wise and to start listening to that was a big moment. And like I said, there's several defining moments where I have gone against the grain. I mean, I've gone against the grain. Most of my life, I came out into this world going against the grain, like I was just that bossy little girl that was telling my you know, whoever was driving how to get home and they should go this direction. So that direction when I'm like five years old, you know, I was just very outspoken and very, I don't know, just full of life. But um, shamanism You know, when I stepped in that too, there's, there's, there's things that remind us of home, there's this deep calling of, of home and like yes, this medicine I get it awakens those parts of parts of us. So I just feel like I don't know when I was running my business and I felt the call to step into shamanism and the shamanic practitioner, I just, I knew I had to listen. But I didn't understand how that made sense with me running a clothing business like these two don't, you know, even set up a treatment room in my office like okay, I guess I'm gonna do have client sessions every once in a while and, um, anyway, and then started trying to infuse energetics and then when I shut down the business, it was a big knowing of Okay, now it's time to really step into I hate the label healer, but you know, really step into that and all these other things, which means I get to learn a lot deeper. I don't know when you want to be a teacher of something, you're going to have to learn all of that yourself. So there's been a shit ton of lessons I've had to go through in my life and I'm grateful I've had the energetic tools. But for me, it's not been just one One moment, a lot of different moments, you know, leaving a religion and then stepping into different modalities and different things seeking for Spirituality and four different ways of connecting. But I remember, you know, when I feel like anybody who starts transitioning, especially out of religion, let's just use that, for example, if you've been conditioned in religion, maybe in conditions around word, if you've been in religion, most of your life, if not your entire life, and it's part of the family system, you're used to finding someone listening to somebody else's voice louder than yours. So people who are stepping out of religion need or looking for someone to tell them what to do, which is tricky. And really good to know, as a teacher or healer, that you I, I never want to do that with people like I want to help people find their own answers. But I stepped into a lot of things where it was just another form of religion in a different in some ways, but in a different way. If that makes sense. And it's often that people will do that right. Then you'll start turning to crystals crystals are usually like that gateway right with, with like, Oh my god, I love the energy of crystals and what they mean and, and again, similar to like the Oracle cards for me, it was just a way to connect and have a tool to something that seemed greater than myself. I had a, I remember so vividly still to this day, it was years ago. I work crystals all the time. And I still do, but they mean different things to me, like I don't need them. I like them. They're part of that. It just feels good. It's not like, Oh my gosh, if I don't have my crystal on me, then I'm not going to feel as grounded or I'm not going to feel it's not as much out of a desperation or a need. But just something that I enjoy. Yeah, well, the same with tarot cards, too, right? Like, I'm not gonna make a life decision, right, based off of a tarot card. But I'm gonna lean on that because, hey, why not get a little more information, right? Take it as information. Yeah. And again, these are just tools. But like with anything, when we when we surrender ourselves to something else that's outside of us. We're negating the whole purpose. And the whole point of, hey, in my belief, we're actually here to remember that everything is within. It's just we reawakening those things. And so I remember I was going through, I was going through such a phase with, show me the illusions. And like I would have, I had a dream once I was walking down the street, and in the sky, there was a car on fire. And I'm like, What the hell and it was like, in my dreams, I was being shown that everything is just an illusion. And which that's a whole other topic for another day, but because that actually is a little challenging to talk about, but at the time, I was I was wanting to see that. And the idea that we create our reality and whatnot. So there was there was a dream that I had, that if you are from Utah, you'll know where the river bottoms are. And I had a friend that lived in the river bottoms, but I never really went down there a whole lot. It's a area down in Provo, that's right by the Provo River. It's beautiful. It's an older place. And so I was in a house down there with all these people and incomes walking in this priest, he throws open the door and he comes very staunch, he has his you know, white collar on. And he has this huge crystal and I think it was a Garnet. I can't remember that was on his throat chakra. And I in my dream, I looked at him and I said absolutely not. And he and just my words and my energy in that dream. He started recoiling backwards, just by my words and my energy. Like I didn't even touch him. And like it ended up pushing him out the door and I watched him fall into the river on this tube and go floating down the river. And to me at that time, it was such a significant dream of like, I don't care who or what you are my energy and who I hold and who I am my autonomous sovereign self has more power over anything outside of me. And it was such a significant, like, okay, okay, now I under I understand deeper that. Yeah, these crystals and I mean, I have crystals on our on our table right now. I love them. And they're super useful tools, but I don't need them. You know? Yeah, well, you choose into them. You don't need them. While they're enjoy them. Yeah, I got further guidance or support, just like, Oh, goodness sakes, I'm a shaman. So shamans carry around a mesa that is full of what we call our Kuya is that are stones there are medicine. But could I do a session without my Mason? michu? Yes, and all my crystals. And yeah, it's uncomfortable when you first start doing it. But it's like, all it is is intention and energy and knowing that we're connected to all things and we can heal. How do you think Christ healed? Right, Christ's healing by reflecting back there God selves and holding that frequency. And my belief, and I was thinking that too, when you shared that because through through all of those emotional healing experiences, that connection to spirit is so strong, where something in your whole body lights up and you can actually feel the vibration of the energy, yeah, pulsating through your body. Even if it's just meditating Valya you know that that connection to spirit is just so, so profound, where you where you actually are Bringing cosmic energy from above your head and grounding energy from below your feet. And you like flip a switch on. Yeah, and you, you light up that crystalline structure that your Christ like self in your body. And we can do magnificent things while you're connecting because we are frequency we are energy, having that awareness and those practices meditating breath, work, whatever it is connecting you to the earth energy with which we are here on Earth. So it's important to be here, there's a lot of, there's a big trend right now with people doing psychedelics and journeys as, as ways to find answers, which it's fine, and it all has its purpose, but when you get so I don't wanna use that word, when you get so accustomed to having to do that. People get into the ethers into the heavens so much that grounding is really challenging, or bringing that down into the present in the here in the now is really challenging. But yeah, when you're connecting, and really realizing that a, you are source energy, just like you are earth energy, and you're a bridge between the two. It's a really empowering, feeling and way of walking through the world. I agree. Totally. And that, and that gives you that self knowledge, right? Of what you are capable of, because you did go within you aren't, whether it's psychedelics, or anything else, you're not leaning on something outside of yourself, right, you're going within, which is that self knowledge is that self empowerment? You know, you would ask me at one time, like, what do you know to be true? And how do you know to be true? And I thought about that for a second. And I think my response was mediumship I know that to be true, speaking with people or communicating with people who've crossed over. And that that is, you can't debate that for me, right? I know that to be true, right? Nothing anyone will ever say to me, there's no there's nothing that can take that experience away from me. And we all have those things. So some people do lean on crystals or things and that's fine, whatever it is for you again, it's just not something outside of yourself going within yourself and using it as a tool and as a piece of like okay, this is a if we're talking about psychedelics, this is something I'm feeling called to because it'll assist me in seeking something that I I can't quite seem to find any other way. But I'm not bypassing or I'm not using it as a way to escape reality it's just it's a tool and for some reason this conversation is reminding me of you know as I left religion because the peace of God comes in for me on this one because God changes has changed many times for me over the years I don't know if you've always if you've had a as your God changed for you slightly not not as profound probably as somebody who's left I'm just I'm curious I'm curious because I feel like sometimes as we as we learn and grow than the god aspect that we know will grow and change at least in my experience, but maybe because it was founded in religion right then that God died another version came in that I I was like, I could not read books that talked about God Heavenly Father Jesus for a very long time. Until I started I started replacing it with source source energy or Yes Why Why is that? Is it because God was affiliated with Uh huh. To religion because that's what what is challenging for a lot of people is Mormon God is a Mormon God and so that when you have religion die, and this is not true for everyone, but I feel like for the majority of people this is the case but that god that was attached to Mormonism you feel betrayed by so you're betrayed, you feel betrayed and hurt and anger towards the system. And then this God that you thought was there, you know, with this religious connection, so for me, when I went through it, then my god died because my religion died and that my god was tied with that religion because I grew up in Mormonism. So I grew up with that God as Heavenly Father as someone who you know, this image that's contained in that, that religion now I had there was a conversation that I had probably a month or two ago, my my god shifted where I can now go, okay, we can talk about God, and, and talk about scriptural things and there's because there's truth in all things. And I feel like what happens and I, this happened with me a lot of times when we step into more spirituality, we believe and I believe that we are God's inform. But what shifted for me as we're not gods and for more gods and training, because right now I can't change and my good friend Michelle is the one we were having this conversation and She challenged the hell out of me because her her belief she's she grew up Mormon, but her God was not a Mormon God. So she's very unique and how she holds God. She's like, you can't right now change the salt into water. So you're not a garden? Why would you think that your God now? And it's like, well, because We are all gods. And it's like, well, no your God in training. So yeah, I would always turn to my teacher garden as a Hey, what's next? What should I do next and kind of had that that idea of surrender, and it totally bumped up on my ego. And there's still elements that I'm, I'm working through with that because there is this piece of, of the that sovereignty piece, that string that whatever, of not needing anything outside of myself. And yet here's the god aspect, this still feel somewhat outside and yet is connected right into us, because we are, we are all we're all connected. And so it was one of those things that again, we were talking about this yesterday, and well, maybe I'm not going to go into that. But that is one piece that I that it's still it's still transmuting for me as far as that that God connection in spirituality and energetics. I've always had a belief that there's something outside of myself and tapping into that. But recognizing that I'm in training still is a little bit of a kick to the ego. Doesn't make sense. Oh, yeah. Well, and I think as you're saying that people that have left any formalized religion, it's not just Mormonism, right. You really taught to not question well, especially lately and the Mormon question in question. your doubts question your questions, you know, that kind of there was that that was going around for quite a while. Yeah, yeah. So if you will, if you question then maybe it's not the right word, but then you're not worthy to lean on God or what you're not trusting you don't have faith? Yeah, I don't think that's just Mormonism. I think that's any religion, Catholic ism as well. I mean, I think I think there's only I don't know much about religions. But I think that Muslim and Jews are the only two religions that I again, and just know enough to make weed quite dangerous. Those are the only two religions that you it's not, it's not indoctrinated to not go within and ask questions. Is that Is that it? Isn't it an interesting way? Because, um, you know, when, when the missionaries go out in Mormonism, and that, obviously, I know that religion very well, they do ask you to go, go ask, go pray to know if this is true. And then that is their indicator, then if you get that answer that the scriptures are true, then Mormonism must be true. Which again, there's truth in all things. So there's a level where they do ask you to go within go build your own testimony testimony. But when you start questioning the doctrine of the Church or questioning what's being taught, and that Yeah, then that starts getting into very murky. So when you leave the church, then that's why you're feeling like, you're God. Right? Um, well, I that was one of the I remember sitting with my brother, after I had left, and I was, anyway, we were having a conversation and he was joking around, oh, you'll be back. Because that's the belief that they hold Oh, you'll be back in a sec. No, I won't. And he's like, Well, why won't you? And I said, well, because of the the God that you believe in is not the God that I believe, and I believe that we're all gods. And his comment to me that Well, isn't that egotistical? And I'm like, why would that be egotistical to believe that we're all Gods incarnate now. And again, that shifted a little bit for me that, okay, we're gods in training, when we're learning, we don't have it. We don't have it all together yet. Hence, the seek for spirituality and always expanding and always growing and always reflecting inward and doing all the things. But God says that God is such an interesting, massive topic, and every single person has a different relationship with God, or can even use that word God and gets offended by it. Right rule for sure. Because there's rules and rigid or there's trauma requests around what that supposed look like, Well, as you were sharing that about, you know, God, and you can't change the salt into sugar. I mean, it makes me think of alchemy, right. And alchemy, really, in my opinion, is simply stated as manifestation. Right? So if we believe that our thoughts create our experiences, and I mean, all the best authors, I mean, you name them, Napoleon Hill, Wallace, D, wattles, Zig Ziglar. All Out Bob Proctor, all of them. They teach you that you can manifest whatever you want. So how, in a sense that, is that not alchemy? That is alchemy. It is alchemy changing. So it's all about manifesting and creating what you want your world to look like. So for me, for example, when I first started my business, and I knew that I wanted to have my first kid when I was 25. I want to have three kids. I had my first kid at 25 and OB demo time I was 30. And I did exactly that my business every time I managed I wanted it to look like something I manifested exactly what that was gonna look like. It hasn't always worked out that way, but more often than not right. And it was just this concept of, if you believe it, you can achieve it right and even though He quotes the thoughts we think and the words we speak, create our experiences. So, in a sense if you really simplify that, that is alchemy. So you're right. I do believe we are gods in training. And some people, they panic, we aren't gods. How can you say that? So I can see why she would challenge you. But if you rewind that, and simplify it a little bit, and really, for me, the spiritual connection, the spiritual awakening is, I'm committing myself every single day to like, be better to grow. Oh, yeah. I'm committing myself to that every day in every way to grow and be better. Yeah, in that in. That is alchemy. Yeah. I mean, I might not be turning water into wine from a physical sense. But I'm turning my life experience into those things. Yeah. So I think alchemy got in training, all of that. It's just, it's just experience experience and how you describe it right? Following the language that you use. And some people really put up a wall against a certain language. And maybe that's why those indoctrinated religious experiences? Well, when you and I didn't, and I don't, I didn't have that. Yeah. Well, when you get I've seen it. Yes, I feel like I keep interrupting you. And when we get to a point to where, again, I love that you brought up that Yeah, I 100% hold that same belief, I'm trying to be a better version of me and access more of me, in a healed state every every single day. So I can be a better version just in this planet. For me personally, when we start becoming more and more aware of who we are, we also become more and more aware of everything in our life is for us, which means every experience in our life is there to teach us something or we're attracting it somehow. And, and I was just sharing before our podcast, like even in, you know, there's a lot of ways that we can go around and bypass different aspects, somebody showing up as an asshole in our world, because whatever. And they're, and we can look at that and go, Well, that's just how they're being yada, yada, yada. But really, it's what is it within us, it's attracting that situation, or we wouldn't have that person in our life, period. And I think I feel like for me, the more I can, the more I do that. A it does feel more empowering. It's challenging as hell to do that, to always be looking within and going, well, gee, if this person is showing up in my life, that's not being honest. Where am I not being honest in my life, you know, those are hard places to look at. And, and very humbling, and, and again, bump up against the ego. And the ego is a really good thing, because it keeps us it's there to help us be safe and do different aspects. It's not a bad thing. But when that ego gets bombed, it's like, Okay, let's go look at this face. And always being willing to look at our stuff, you know, I posted today about my friends, and how, you know, I've gone through, I've gone through phases in my life, where I've lost all of my friends for different reasons, and it will happen over time. And I've come to recognize that, you know, a big reason why is because I am shifting and growing. And so that's just not a resonance anymore. And the people that are in my life now, I've been so grateful for because there are also people that will go look at their stuff. They'll go in and ask the hard questions. They'll be honest, you know, when we're having challenging conversations, they show up, and they'll be honest, and they, they are inspiring people. And I've been so grateful that that's what my world is now, compared to what it used to be 10 years ago of more, you know, superficial or, you know, just different, just different ways of being and there's nothing wrong with either, but I'm grateful that that's my, that's my world. Now. You know, we'll have you ever heard the saying that people come into your life for one of three things. A reason, a season or a lifetime? You had a such a? something to look at. Yeah. All those relationships, whether they've come and gone. They were there for a season, maybe they were there for a reason? Or they're there for a lifetime. some or all three. Yeah. And so it made me think of that when you set that. The other thing too, I was we as you were talking people that bump up against maybe it's religious affiliations, that's really attachments. And I think that's even in just the political landscape. The whole cognitive dissonance. Oh, yeah, right. It's the same with the religious knowledge. It's okay, I have this understanding of the government or the world around me. So if something bumps up against what you know, you're quickly, walls are up walls are up. cognitive dissonance, there's no way be true. No way that cannot possibly be true, right. And I think as you do more an energetic and emotional healing, as you let energy flow in and flow out, you become less attached to all those things. And now, it's information. And I think that's really where when people say when I describe myself, as I feel like I'm well versed in emotional intelligence, which I think you would say the same That's what I mean by that is his energy and energy out. I don't attach to things as I once did. Yeah, no matter what it is, right. Wow, that's interesting that you say that, huh? Tell me more information. Yeah, it's just information so I'm not attaching to it his energy in his energy out which is also why I think that the whole the weasel Hey, you can heal your life that's why I believe that concept so much because if we have information in and we hold on to it we let it like gut punch us or hold on to a negative thing and turn into something that's dis ease then that creates some Yeah, and harmony in our body, right? But if we allow it in and we allow it to flow out. Yeah, then you are optimizing it and you are in God and training and you are emotionally intelligent. And you are you are experiencing emotional healing. Because you're not allowing it to like, take you down or define you. Yeah, that that the law of detachment whatever you want to call it is huge. It's one of those I feel like mastery pieces when you can start getting to that place to where you are letting go of attachment. Holy shit world, your world flows a lot more it is that letting go and letting, letting for flow. It's just it's or letting go and letting God I mean, very similar, similar ideas. But um, yeah, our, our attachment to outcome is usually or, or how someone should behave. My family members share this, or my friends should be this. It's what will always lead us to disappointment, because who are we to say, what they how they show up in life and for us, you know, but yeah, attachment. That's a huge piece. Oh, so big. And I learned more about that as I do you have these experiences? Yeah. You know, the attachment to things. Yeah. 100% how it's supposed to be even just, I mean, I think of tattoos. As silly as that is really, right. There's a there's a big conversation, my daughter just started doing tattoos. And we were at a birthday party over the weekend. And there was an older woman there. She's very LDS that her experiences. She just couldn't even she actually had to leave the room. Because they were talking about Courtney Courtney stone tattoos. And she was showing all these pictures and my youngest son, his nicknames Buddha. So we had a budong I had so his ankle Anyway, she really couldn't she was attached to the idea that that means something. Yeah, it means something to her. And it was a negative connotation. And she really couldn't even be in the room. Yeah. And nothing to do with her. There was no, it wasn't even about her. And she just attached, she was attached the idea that there's a sin involved in that, which I'm using that as an example, right? No, it's 100% true, then it does create judgment. And then now you have a judgment about the way somebody else is living their life. And if we are being Christ, like that is non Christ. And that is not Christ. Like, because if I see you and I should honor whatever experience it As for you, if I don't agree with it, let it flow in, let it flow out. Honor your path is not my path. And let it go. Yeah. And then you choose for you. Yep. Like for me, I don't have any tattoos not because I have judgment of somebody else's, because I choose not to. And that is all theirs. And so therefore, I think there should be more. I would like to see more people. Just let it go. Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, those people like her. It's the same thing in reverse. Like can can we can we give compassion for someone that chooses to live their life that way? Because it is a safety piece for her that the you mentioned something earlier? Oh, the cognitive dissonance. It is a safety mechanism that's triggering within someone, which is creating cognitive dissonance where they can't go there. Because if it's a safety piece, if they actually start going into that, then it will unwind their world which is that root chakra that feeling of feeling safe. And like this is this is what I know to be true. And if you now question that, oh, my world will unravel and I don't know if I will be able to like it feels like death. And nobody, nobody's going to consciously choosing to death until you get to a point to where you understand that we are in a life death life cycle. I mean, everything is life death life cycle. Although I was just reading something about that today that we can actually get out of that and that's a whole other podcast, but especially in shamanism the West is all about life death life cycle. I mean we're how many live you know, death Have you had in your life. I've had countless through friends relationships myself, I've had areas of myself that I that I have had die and you know, we do aspect death rites with clients. You know, when there's aspects of us sometimes it gets to die and we send that home. So there's there's so much death in our life. That's interesting. I just went on that tangent. You're welcome, everybody. No, I resonate with what you're saying. I mean, you always you come meant that you've been married four times. And I've joke that I've been married four times, even though Kelly and I have been married, same person for 27 years. But I met him when I was 17. So Young, you cannot, let's hope Let's hope that we grow and change. I am not the same. I'm not inherently the same person, that I wasn't 17. nor is he when he was 19. Right, then we are 48 and 50. Right. So you either grow together, or you grow apart, right. And there's certain things in my life that have have died. Things that I once was, I'm no longer and him too. So I laugh because, you know, I felt like I've been married for time. Yeah. Well, and it's a good reminder, too, that when we allow for death to come in, it gives. It frees up space for something new to be available. And I love that I so believe that. Thank you for sharing that. What it is. Yeah. I mean, I watch it in sessions all the time, and just had a beautiful session with a woman yesterday that there's a lot of death that was asking to be had. And she texted me this morning. And it's anyway, it's just, it's a beautiful thing to witness for ourselves. And then also, as a practitioner, I get to witness it. And my clients, which is one of my greatest is such a gift to be able to see their transformation. And that's it. You know, you mentioned it before, it's like, as healers, I hate that label. Because, yes, we go in and hold space for someone else. But especially in my world, the people that show up to sessions, I know that their souls asking for something bigger, they wouldn't be sitting in front of me. And it's them that's navigating and guiding the session, not me, I just have the tools of knowing where to go and assist in that process. But it is it is that client that it's like, Alright, we're calling in your higher self or we go in as beautiful. I've even helped people like, if they need, if they need to have a conversation with somebody, that's just a really crucial conversation. And they just, it's just too deep. They just can't do it. I encourage them to have a conversation with the other person's higher self. Oh, yeah. And sometimes their higher self will not show up. But yeah, it is. And then sometimes they will, and being open to the idea that I can, you know, sit in silence and have the conversation with the other person and engage their higher self. Yeah, in ways that maybe they can't do face to face. Oh, yeah. Because some people just aren't available for that. And maybe the lesson in that is learning that actually. You don't have to have things can those conversations in person in like the physical because that person's not available for it. But you can still do it the energetics and the energetics work. They transmute energy, they move energy they heal. Sometimes that conversation allows us to have forgiveness, you know, to see something that we didn't, we weren't able to see before. And usually that's the case, usually something said, or something's communicated. That's like, Oh, I didn't know that. And now I can have, I can shift my perspective of being angry and hate hate, you know, having hatred, to compassion, of seeing someone else in their human imperfective self. Well, I think some of the biggest transitions I've ever experienced, those come from a place of forgiveness, whether it's myself or someone else. Yeah, forgiveness really is like that magnificent tool to unwind the anger, that shame, whatever that you just mentioned, I think that's there's a moon Iola on Gaia, it's a heart camera, the title of it and I'll try to remember to put it into the show notes and find it but it's it's all about the heart in it, it goes into how our hearts are a muscle and how they grow through heartbreak. And part of heartbreak is through and going through those transitions of forgiveness and there's a beautiful story in there forgiveness that I highly recommend this it's a just a stunning movie in general. It's like a documentary kind of thing. But it's it's on what's it called? I can't remember it's something around the heart. It's on Gaia. I'll find it find then and post it but but I do love that I am you have to remove something before you can put some fill it up. Yeah, or allowing for the break tap and right, Holly and I you know, when we're doing our heart retreat, before we had the last one, we were talking about that with how you know when it when the heart breaks, you can actually fill it in with the gold fill, right and so it actually increases size. So every time it's like looking at a cup that that you know, people will do that with a cup that breaks or a plate that breaks actually fill in with like a gold yes glue that binds it together which actually makes the plate or the cup bigger. We can do that with our hearts as well and increasing the size and now we had this beautiful new element, this gold aspect which gold is the highest frequency of all the you know the metals and anyway, it's just a beautiful I think that's a Japanese tradition where you you break something and then you fill it up with that gold glue Paint in it. It's called something I can't name. But it's a fascinating process. I know a lot of I think there's a foundation locally that helps women who've been abused. And that's one of the practices that they do. Good for. I love that they break the dish. Yeah. And then they glue it back together with that gold. Yeah, glue and the dish comes back together in the same way, but it will never be the same again, no, it has cracks on has breaks in it. And it's art. And it is art. And it's more beautiful in most cases than it was before. Because now it has a story. And it has some scars. Yeah, you refer to that just give a level of depth. Honestly, I think in your post two, you'd mentioned something about, you know, the deep conversations. And I just think that comes with experience and in experiencing depth. Yeah, and part of it, too, is where you're at in life, right? Because when you're when you're craving and seeking out more those types of friendships that that you do want to have the deeper like, I've been thinking about this, what are your thoughts? Or what's your experience, instead of the superficial? What car did you get? Or oh my gosh, she did what you know, there's such a different level of frequency and vibration and energetics in the two different dynamics. And I felt like I've just gotten to a point to where, you know, I don't, I very rarely will have those superficial conversations anymore. It's just not not a part of my reality anymore. But it used to be, you know, totally used to be. But just just a reminder, though, some scars are ones that we want to we want to heal so that we're not seeing through though some scars. So while there's art and heartbreak, we don't want to always carry the samskaras. Oh, for sure. I agree. I love that. Yeah, I do, too. It's just one of those things that I think about quite often. So well. And what's coming up for me is just people so they want more. I really don't love the word more like if you want more love, I don't know, then you need to let go of something else that's taking up the place of love, kind of like we talked about before, like God and guilt can't live in the same space. Yeah. So if you want, if you're going to use the word more, if I want more, whatever, then what are you willing to give up to fill up that space, so that you can have more of more of that I had a big awareness not too long ago, that part of the destruction of our planet that we've had many, many, many times, is because of the desire for more. And the irony is, is we're sitting here and actually, you know, as spiritual, spiritually minded people we are seeking more is not the right word. For me, it's more continually growing and expanding, which is an element of more. So it's kind of ironic. And yet, the more I learn, the more that we can become peace and at peace with where we're at right now, in the present moment, realizing that everything's already perfect, and there isn't, you know, you get to that place where you don't need anything, then that frees up for like what you're saying, for something else to come in, or just letting go. Right? attachment piece. lon, I think the older you get to you know, you let go of the attachment of wanting to impress others. Really, you're just looking for connection. Yeah. You know, oh, yeah, for sure. So letting go of that more of impressing others or? Yeah, especially in the social media world, right. More and more and more. And I hear young kids saying, like, how many likes that get? And that's just interesting. I bet you even know that. The kicker is, the more the idea of more writing. Well, we've talked for a good amount of time now. So we probably should. But the reality is, is I think you and I both could talk for hours about spirituality and tools and crystals and things we've loved and things that have worked and have not worked and well, and just the commitment to, to always keep learning. Yeah. And never like I've committed to myself every day in every way to always want to heal and grow and offer that to other people in my life. You know, it's funny every time you're saying every day in every way. I'm like, What is that? Every Do you remember when you were a kid every day in every way? I will increase my bust. Do you remember? Oh my god. Yeah, that was like an elementary, I think or junior high. That is so funny. I I've never heard that things. Like I've never heard that. So read that. There you go. That's so random. Yeah, every day in every way increase my bus. Yeah, like and there was like this exercise that you did. And it was so weird. I mean, I was very small chested when I was younger, I had to pay good. This is such TMI right now. So funny On that note, love it. Well, we should definitely leave that part in. Oh, maybe why not? Why not? We're all human. Well, hopefully there's some nuggets in this today. Wishing you all such a beautiful day. May you see the gifts in your life that are unfolding for you. You in every way. Thank you for joining the conversation today. We hope that something we said sparked your curiosity to further your growth. Only you know what is meant for you. So let's continue the conversation and follow us on our Facebook page at what is personal is universal. We'll see you there.