09. Part 2. Healthy co-creative relationships. Co-create a life by design!

So glad you're here. Welcome to part two of healthy co-creative relationships.

In this episode we expand and deep dive into our personal experiences  and the power of healthy relationships. We are passionate about CREATING A LIFE BY DESIGN in the relationships of our life.

Jessica and Amanda share a whole wheelhouse of tools to use on a daily basis AND questions for you to ask yourself and go within to create or expand your healthy relationships.

Often in finding who we are, a good place to start is to learn who we are not!  We share our beliefs that a good friendship is an important foundation to a healthy marriage/relationship. 

Going through painful experiences with those we love are in fact painful, hard and  can be  very challenging; AND once you get to the other side of those times you can often bring out the best in each other.  When we can hold space for each other in a safe and loving way we create a container of safety and non-judgement. Don't know how to hold space for someone? We share how from our experiences.

How are you showing up in your relationships? Are you giving what you want to receive?  What does your communication look like? Are you committed to listening to your partner vs. committed to misunderstanding them?  What brings you joy in your relationship? These are just a few areas we touch on. 

This conversation was one of our favorites, as we are both passionate about healthy co-creative relationships.

Where can you connect with us outside of this podcast?
Instagram:
@amanda.joy.loveland
@jessica.lee.devenish

Facebook:
Amanda Joy Loveland
Jessica Carnesecca Devenish
Group: What is personal is universal

Website:
www.amandajoyloveland.com
www.devenishduo.com 

Transcript

Unknown: 0:05

Hi there, we know that what is personal is universal. I am Amanda Loveland. And I am Jessica devenish. Welcome to the conversation. Okay, so are you ready to record part two of our co creative, healthy relationship conversation? are you? I'm glad we decided to do a part two because I kind of, I feel so passionate about co creative relationships, and how powerful they can be. Yeah. So I wanted to dive a little deeper than we did with Travis and Kelly, for whatever reason, it felt a little surfacey to me, maybe not? Well, to be fair, this the first time we ever have our men on the podcast, they had no idea. Right? We kind of told him what we want to talk about was super last minute. And yeah, so it was fun. It was I hated the sound quality. So that will change next. But yeah, yeah, we wanted to do a second episode that really dive dove a little bit deeper. Yeah, I really am passionate about healthy relationships and co creative relationships. And part of that is sharing our stories, which is why you know, our concept is what is personal universal, and how we can share and connect with people. So one of the things that I feel I had mentioned in the podcast, you know, I'm a really strong, powerful woman, and Kelly is a strong, powerful man. And I think it's important for some people, I want to share that. I didn't come by my strength haphazardly. And that relationship that I mentioned, when I was younger, in high school, without getting into all the details, that relationship was a very unhealthy I lost myself in that relationship. Like that relationship. I lost my virginity in that relationship. And after that, I gave him it was almost like he had permission to. to control you control me he did control so much of who I was. You know, you're young. And maybe it's not just when you're young, any woman, like if you have a man that I mean, even now today kill you like, Oh, I really like you in that outfit or that dress. that's a that's a beautiful feeling. Right? Yeah. But that can become a very unhealthy relationship, when this is what you'll wear. This is who you will and won't talk to you like alienating me from friends and school activities. Like going to dances, we never went to a dance with any other couples, it was just always us. And so I lost myself in that relationship. And so much so that, like he would go and mess around with other girls come back and compare my body with other girls bodies. It was just and I would still, I would still play into that because I would still I wanted to be with him. I would do anything to have him want what we had. Yeah, so I lost myself. That 17 year old Jessica. Wow, I would love to have a chat with her. So I would just I feel like I mean, you've probably had experiences like that to the strength that you've come into did not happen haphazardly. Like I've earned it. Well, what is the quote that that often goes around on social media, it's something around the the brightest lights and the brightest people and the strongest people, the most brilliant, beautiful people that you meet in this life have been through some of the hardest, darkest moments ever, and have had really shitty things happen to them. And that's the truth. I mean, we come into this world, and we're somewhat wired with who we are, but I am who I am because of some really, really shitty things that I've had to go through. And some really dark moments of looking at myself and what I what I need to really see and look at and heal from. Well, and I think knowing what you don't want and who don't want to be, is a great place to start sometimes even when we work with people on limiting beliefs. Okay, let's let's look at your limiting beliefs. And then let's flip the switch on what you do want that to look like so and you wouldn't know what you don't want if you've not experienced that. Exactly. So when you're talking about these relationships, you know, it's as I you know, as I look at my own life and the things that I allowed in and out and you talk about you were 17 but I was a grown ass woman and attracted, you know, that really unhealthy partner. And you know, there there's, there's a reason that we call certain things into us and, and each aspect in each relationship that I experienced, there was something that I was asking to learn deeply about myself. And to your point like it is part of where my fire my strength, my my parts of who I had frog forgotten coming back in and wait a minute, this is actually who I am. And who we are. It's not this thing over here. It's not that aspect. And oh, actually love is everywhere and in all things. So yeah, of course you could love somebody that's unhealthy. But that doesn't mean you stay depending on the situation, you know, but yeah, absolutely. There's no relationship that you think that you're Looking at my first divorce, people looked at us, they were shocked when we got divorced. And a lot of times we think there has to be some big cat, you know, something that happened. He was looking at photography, especially being Mormon looking at pornography, he's had an affair, something like that. That's why you're getting divorced. And for me, it was, well, he's, we're not healthy. It's a toxic environment. And I'm not gonna raise my kids in this. And outside looking in, nobody saw that. So they just assumed we were this happy, great couple. And the same thing when you have now for me, and I know it's the same thing for you. We both have very healthy relationships now. And it's not like we didn't go through hard things. Oh, for sure, for sure. And a lot of people say, I hear a lot because I'm really close to my parents and my siblings, and all my kids and my husband, of course, too. And we work together and live together, right? And everyone's like, You're so lucky. And I say bullshit. Luck has nothing to do with what I have. Yeah. And what we have what we have, as a healthy relationship, healthy partnership, somebody said to me, there's only one kind of partnership and that's a sinking ship. Oh, that's an interest? i? I do not I could not disagree. More. If you have that. ship in any partnership you go into? Yeah, my face. I mean, I was like, Huh, interesting. Yeah, I don't believe that at all. I mean, I definitely like I know what I didn't want, right. So when I, when Kelly and I first started dating, it wasn't very long after this other relationship. It's interesting how quickly I healed from that. And I was free. Yeah, I felt so free. And I knew what I didn't want. And I was never gonna let another man treat me that way, at all. So but from the very beginning, you know, Kelly and I have, there's such a friendship, like such a kindness. And Travis talked about, you know, just that gratitude and being thankful. And I think that is such, it's such a core foundation of who we are, as a couple. Is this, like, we like each other. Like, we love each other. And there's that deep unconditional love, but the friendship and the light factor is high. Yeah, and I, I love that for me and my relationship with Travis. You know, when we first when we first met, it was very natural. Like, there was a lot of gravitational pull with just the chemistry was there, our conversations were really great. And then we went through some really challenging parts and a relationship that really forces us to either grow together or grow apart. And oh, obviously, yeah, obviously, we chose to lean in and grow together and work through some really painful, painful things, which had we not done that we wouldn't be the couple that we are today. And something something that I want to touch on that I think that oftentimes we forget the difference between codependent relationship and co creative one of the biggest pieces is doing your own work. Like if there's something about your partner that's really driving you nuts, what is it within you that is pinging on like, what, what's sitting within you that you need to go look at. Because oftentimes, I feel like we get into this habit of thinking our person has to make us happy, or has to be a certain way or with my personality, you know, I'm going to control my environment. So I'm going to control my person, which Travis is easy to control, because he has a natural tendency to be a people pleaser. So he's been a great teacher for me to not do that, because I'm wanting to be a better person and are in my marriage. And for us to both be really happy, which we are, but I will call myself out and I have a tendency to control things, I have a tendency to dominate, I have a tendency to do these things that ultimately will not in my really making our relationship healthier or more toxic. And obviously, it's more toxic. And it's okay, where can I take a step back and acknowledge all the things that Travis is doing, not what he's not, and what he's not doing, but all the things that he he is doing, and it is interesting that that just that mental shift, and that that switch, so to speak. Like I know you guys had talked about in the last podcast where you guys do that? What is the 32nd blessing? Yeah. Which I think is a really beautiful process, and is really challenging for a lot of people. I will look at, like traumas past trauma, childhood sexual abuse, I will go dive into that all day long. Having to look at my how I'm showing up in my relationship is the most painful things. For me. This is just my experience. But it is the most painful thing for me to go look at. It is like, gut wrenching my body just like physical somatic response of like, no, I would rather go blame Travis for these things instead of shit. What do I get to look at within me? What is it in me? Yeah, that's even bringing out those right emotions or reactions to I mean, it's your kids to any relationship right? Especially if it's repeatedly, repeatedly happening. Yeah, like Oh, there's some more work that needs to happen here. Like, what is it about me that is attracting that? Yeah. Another thing too, I was thinking about was just the ability like, co creative. It's, I love that you even like, wanted to share that because it's all about being seen and being heard. And Kelly talked about supporting and encouraging like that is, I was the CEO of our company, we had like 70 employees, he was one of my employees, like, he was technically an owner, too, because we were married, but the company was not in his name. He was the VP of sales. And I was a CEO. Never once like, when he talks about encouraging like he we live that, like, there, I was the CEO. Plus, sometimes I would be the top salesperson in the company, and he was VP of sales. And he would stand up in those sales meeting and high five me, there was never any competitive nature. There was never a resentment factor. Because I was strong and who I was, because remember, I'd already learned what I didn't want, right? And I'm and he had those relationships to growing up. I'm sure that's why he knew what he want. And I also believe, if we raise our vibration, they need us. Yeah. So I think we brought out the best in each other. They either do or they don't. Right. They might help you. out. Yeah, bye. Bye. Perfect. Yep. I think because I was solid in who I was. And I knew what I wanted. It gave him permission to do the same. Yeah. So he met me. Not everybody does that. You're right. But he didn't. He met me there. And you know, there's not a lot of guys that can work on quote, air quoting work for their wife. Yeah, that's a very rare thing. But there was just this being seen being heard support encourage each other. Like, we just it was just like, safe place. Yeah, right. He always supported me. I mean, I had a girlfriend, she was my best friend for 24 years. And that relationship ended sadly. And I was heartbroken. And he said to me, said, you know, that relationship was never like, I felt like, there wasn't as much for you in that relationship as there was for her. I felt like she took advantage of you. And I felt like I mean, there were times that we would have dinner plans as couples. And she ended up being alone. And he would say, go with her, and just go with her, you know, we'll go to dinner another time. Like that is such a beautiful, encouraging supporting relationship. So then to find out later, 25 years later, literally, he's like, I never felt like that relationship was equal to you. And I said, Why don't you tell me that? You said because you loved her. So I loved her for you. Yeah. Like, well, and this talks to that whole balance piece with any relationship. And that idea of the CO creative with having balance where it feels like it's a give and take in friendships and romantic partnerships, however, and I, I know, you have some things to share on there are some times where we get to hold our person, when they're, we get to kind of when you guys are talking about the 100 and 100 or 110 110. When you're all into the relationship. Sometimes our people go through challenging moments, where we want to be held in those challenging moments. Sometimes our people go into that too. And so sometimes we get to be the one that allows for our partner to go through whatever it is they are going to go through. For sure. I mean, I would say 85% of our relationship has been east, right? I mean, well, I watched a lot of couples struggle in just liking each other and wanting to be with each other. That's never really been our story. Like there's a there's a friendship, there's a kindness, like there's an ease about who we are. Yeah. And then there's these other parts of our stories, our own personal demons, our own personal experiences, where we've been through what I would call the dark night of the soul. And I actually had somebody reach out to me and say, will you explain Shadow Work to me because we had mentioned Shadow Work. So I, I think it's important to kind of maybe put an explanation behind how I see dark night of the soul and then you should probably do the same. I look at the dark night of the soul. It's kind of like, you will lose who you are to lose, you lose yourself to find yourself. It's like those moments where I mean, I think dark night the soul came from some poem that St. Peter on the cross wrote a long time ago, and it's all about untangling so that you can find the harmony and the peace so you can't you can't find the harmony and peace without going through. It comes synonymously with going through losing yourself to find yourself so how would you explain that similar A lot of times people will go through dark night of the soul when they're going through different transitions so you leave religion and you'll go through dark night of the soul because these pieces that you were holding on to have now died your foundation the things that you've known are dying, dark night of the soul can come with Holy crap, I there are those places because I had a lot of experience with depression. I really knew what that Dark Pit looked and felt like I always used to call it a pit. I would fill myself like in this shallow well it was actually very not shallow grave. But that's what it felt like like I was just in this pit and I, when I started moving into spirituality, and like actually looking at my stuff and starting to heal it, it scared the shit out of me because it looked when I was looking at it in front of me like, okay, I can feel this thing coming in that feels really dark and heavy some demon that I'm carrying within me of those shadow pieces that I have been hiding about myself for so long, any kind of limiting beliefs, I'm not this I'm not that I'm a fraud and how I'm how I'm acting out in the world, are trying to think of some of the things that I had that, that I had to look at those shadow pieces of ourselves, we think are really bad. And so we should never talk about it, look at it, or do anything with it. It's just, it just needs it's a demon. So we're gonna, we know it exists. But we've been able to be okay so far to up to this point. But you get to a place in your life that it's like, if you want to move forward, it's actually time to go look at those shadows. And those shadows, when you start looking at that can trigger dark night of the soul, where it's that where am I holding this belief in my body? Or my what, you know, what is it that needs to be learned. And oftentimes, it comes through trauma and things that we've had in our past that are asking to be looked at and healed, so that we can move move forward. So dark night of the soul and Shadow Work, to me are two different things. Because Shadow Work is like looking at the shadows. And that doesn't always throw you into a dark night of the soul. And it can throw you into a dark night of soul where everything that you've known, or some really big fundamental pieces that you've known as far as who you are and how you walked in the world die. It's a death, it's a spiritual death on some Earth soul death on some level, versus Shadow Work. I mean, I feel like I do Shadow Work pretty often, most of the time of Gee, where's this limiting belief? And is this true? And is that true? And oh, now I get to look at this piece, okay. And that's the Shadow Work. And the thing that I just want to say was Shadow Work, you can't have the light without the shadow, like both of them together actually make a make for a beautiful world. I mean, not, not one of us doesn't have shadows, we all do. We all do. And it's like, the more we step into embracing those shadow parts of us and who we are, like, we become more compassionate, in general, compassionate with ourselves compassionate with others. And it's like, well, that, that sounds like a nice place to be, instead of ignoring, and I'm just going to pretend like that doesn't exist. Well, if you really are communicating with your person, like let's say, you're in a fight, and you're in the moment, you're in the heat of the moment, if you really just be in that present moment of whatever it is that you're fighting about, instead of like, focusing on what is this gonna like after it's over? And where are we going? And what's gonna happen? And where did how did we get here? Just stop and pause and be in the moment? Do the Shadow Work with each other? Like this moment like this? Where we see each other? Maybe at our worst? Yeah, perhaps, like 100% is where like, I don't like who I'm being or I don't like who you're being or vice versa? And how do we navigate this, and come from a place of love? Yeah, and hold space for each other so that we can grow and I can grow and not, and not judge what they're going through. or more importantly, like, I know, when Kelly neither one of us, this is one thing that we've learned over time, we again, we didn't come by this easily, like whatever hearts shit you're going through, it may not have anything to do with me. So the ego mind wants to make it about me because you're my person and we're together. So you doing this or whatever you're going through is about me, that's more codependent Yes, I told you. And that's not healthy, because it really might, even with your kids, even It has nothing to do with you being a bad parent, it didn't do anything wrong, or the same in a relationship, hold space for them to to be in their worst, if that's what they need to be. So let's pause for a minute with the holding space. Because not everyone may not understand what that means or what that looks like. I would define holding space. Well, I mean, energetically, I'm holding space for you to in a place in a container that there's no judgement, where you're free to be who you need to be and express those shadows. Something that you're not happy about yourself with me. So that would be one part of holding space. The other part would be I mean, when I talk about communication, I think listening, listening to understand is the most powerful way you can hold space for somebody. Yeah, like I'm listening to you. I hear you. I'm not listening to you because I'm ready to respond. I'm listening, waiting for my moment to share what I think. Yeah, like, I'm really listening to what you're saying. Yeah, and I would offer to in that space, when you're when you're noticing with your partner that something's up and you it's an indicator to Okay, something's up, something's up with them. I'm going to remind myself, this has nothing to do with me. Whatever my partner's saying has nothing to do with me. I'm actually shifting into your like literally feeling yourself moving. into your heart space, and then listening from that space, and being the sacred witness. And that's what you're talking about where you're at listening, because oftentimes, and you'll see this with your friends in just in life and interacting. Oftentimes, we feel like, we have to share our stories with someone else who's grieving, or going through something difficult or going through something painful. And sometimes there is a space for that, but nine times out of 10 people just need to be heard. I think that's where real empathy comes from. It's just being heard. Sympathy is saying, I mean, brene Brown talks about that, right? Oh, well, you're lucky it's not this empathy. Oh, yeah. Is that's that's where sympathy is a little bit lacks depth. Empathy really is like, I hear you, and I'm honoring where you're at. There's no judgment around it. Yeah. Yeah. So I think holding space that would be that's an important piece that again, we forget to do with our people, just because there are people. And yet they're the one person that we should be doing all these things that we're learning, and yet they're the easiest one not to do it with. Yeah, I think that comes about happens when you start taking each other for granted. And there's been times in our marriage where we look back, and I had, you know, like, I feel confident in my marriage. I'm gonna set this over here, because I've got this business and these other kid things that are priority to me and that I mean, what a What a sad place. What a sad choice for me, looking back, I should have never done that. Would you feel like though that your relationship cycles, times where you guys are feels so close, so connected in times where it's a little bit more distant, but you're still fine, nothing's wrong. And then other times we're because I feel like I've everything in life cycles, nature cycles. Yeah, you know, so it's like, and we cycle. So it would be natural that we would cycle I think the differences is when you get into a point in the cycle, where you're noticing that you're you are snapping at each other more, or you're taking each other for granted, like snapping at each other, right, there is an indicator that something's off. And you get to go look at why you're being snappy. And if you have a healthy enough relationship, I can say, Whoa, what's up? That was snappy, as opposed to harboring resentment or keeping score. Yeah, keeping score is such an unhealthy codependent. Oh, yeah. place to be. And I think, I mean, on the flip side of, you know, holding space and all this, there's the opposite of, I'm committed to misunderstanding you. Right? Like, I hear what you're saying, but I'm just committed to like, not hearing you or being mad at you, because I'm harboring all these past things. These resent how many years? Yeah, for how many years for however long, and they don't have any idea that how you really feel because you've never stepped into your voice. And you've never given them their voice, because you're committed to misunderstanding them, like you're happy and you're unhappy. You've just chosen to stay happy in your own happiness. Like, that's a choice, too. So you either choose to stay in this place of, I hear you and I'm committed to misunderstanding you. Or I hear you and I'm listening. Like I want to understand really wanting to understand you. Yeah. Well, one of the things too, that I feel like I for me, it took practice to be able to do is when I was snappy, and I was catching it, or I felt Moody, or I felt whatever that I have, I've gotten much better to tell my partner, hey, I'm off. I don't know what it is. It's nothing you did, or Hey, I've got a piece that I'm working. If I seem to be a little short tempered, or short, whatever, just No, it has nothing to do with you. I'm just moving through some stuff and being openly communicating that something's going on. I'm aware of it. I'm conscious of it. I realize I'm being a total bitch right now. And I'm calling it for what it is. Because nine times out of 10 for me actually being able to say I know that I'm being a total bitch. Just give me some space for a minute. I'll move through this in a moment. And then it but usually in the comments, you can only meet them as far as you've grown. Yeah, in your shadow work, right. So because you've done that work, you're able to express that. Yeah, and that he's gonna either match you right? Or he's gonna, he's gonna. I can't take that as too much. What's the word? Like, there's too much truth for me. Like, you're just saying, I'm being a bitch right now. And that's supposed to be fine. Well, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, it's an action. It doesn't mean who I am as a person. Yeah, Trump is really good at Okay. All right. Thanks for letting me know. And he would tell you if he was sitting right here, that he really appreciates that I do that instead of just being a total bitch and wondering what the hell like what the hell did I do something wrong? She's not telling me Did I not take out the trash? Like, nothing to do with him? Yes. But if I don't communicate that, then he has no idea. I mean, there's, there's times where for me I have I have to have my loans, loan time I have to have space and about and it just depends on how my workload is how kids are all that thing. All of those things. I know myself well enough that I have to decompress by being alone like that's my that's how I Fill my cup. And it was hard for me to tell trav like, if I'm in the tub, and he'd come in and start trying to have a conversation with me, and it was like, please don't freaking talk to me right now, like, I cannot. And I, I would be sappy, and I've gotten better, and we have gotten better, and he knows that I need my alone time to I will say, I, I need my space, I need you to leave me alone. And sometimes I'll be a little bitchy about it, I'm not gonna lie, I will totally own that. But at least I communicate it, I need to, there's still a lot of things that I'm working on being better at. But again, it should be able to be open and being honest with where you're at without worrying about hurting your partner's feelings. When you're trying to validate where you're at. Now, there's a difference between telling your partner you think he's an asshole or whatever, and purposely trying to hurt his feelings. Like don't do that. Yeah. Well, it's it's like, if I get upset with my kids, I focus on their actions. Like the word bitchy, right? That was a big response, as opposed to I'm calling you a bitch. totally different thing. Yeah. The other thing too, is I think when we go through hardships, whether it's financial, right, I mean, I've been through my fair share of financial issues and be both and you know, things we went through with Courtney and his brother passing and struggles with his mom. Even though we're both going through the same storm, how we view the storm is inherently different, even though we're both seeing the same thing. We're both seeing from totally different perspective. Oh, yeah, of course, you would be. And so without us talking about it. There's an assumption that he's seeing what I'm seeing, and vice versa. And or there's a frustration that he can't see what I see. Until we talk about it. Oh, well, that's how you saw that. Oh, my gosh, well, I thought she met this. Okay. I can see how you took that. And there's just this conversation that takes place. Yeah. So then there's no storytelling, there's not a misunderstanding. There's just like holding space, and allowing us to go through that hard. Whatever it is, you're going through. And trust me, I mean, any relationship like I had said, in our very, very first podcast, if you do, if you aren't having any kind of struggles, or come combative conversations with your person, like, Are you are you even do you have a you have a pulse? Exactly. I really, I really believe that. And I think that's why I wanted to share that in this part of the conversation from last time was, yeah, we do have a lot of laughter. And we keep things light when we need to, because it's easy to go to the dark side, light, like shit sometimes. So we do have that laughter side, and we do bring out the best in each other. And none of it came haphazardly. Like we've been through, like we stood in the fire together. Like there's been times in our marriage where, like, I'm literally holding this big, burly man, man of man's like, if you know, Kelly, he's just like, this tough, strong, like he offers safety to me as just a woman that I am so grateful for. And there's times when I'm just holding, I'm literally holding him in his sorrows in his grief, for whatever it is that he's going through. And just holding him through that time. And he's holding me through now even though I'm a strong, confident woman, 90% of the time, there's days where it is just like I don't, I'm not good enough for whatever it is that I'm working through whatever Shadow Work I'm dealing with, and just holding each other through that, and still seeing me for who I am. Yeah. And honoring that. Yeah. For sure. One of the things that you did mention was the the communication piece, you know, of the different filters and how we see the world and whatnot. And I nine times out of 10 if I feel distant with Travis, I, it's we haven't had really connected conversations. And last night, I had one of those moments, because I've been working through some pieces recently. And when I and he, like he mentioned that he'll sit there and he has a piece pop up and he'll sit there and work with it before he communicates it. And when that happens, we you know, you kind of feel a little distant for a minute. And then last night I you couldn't get me to shut up. And we had a few days ago to where we had gone for a drive and I was talking and there's the part of me and I said to him, I'm like, am I talking too much? And he of course he's sweet. He's like, No, of course not. I love all this and, and I just had one of those moments last night with God, it feels so good to be able to communicate all of who I am. All of the crap and the shit and whatever things that I'm working through, and have him hear me and like I feel so much more connected to him and more authentically held in our relationship and more love and compassion for each other when I do that. And I would say you know I think we talked about in the last podcast I can't remember but I would say the number one thing for any healthy relationship co creative relationship is communication. I would say that that is the number one thing and so if you're struggling in a relationship, I would ask yourself are you having real conversations with your person not Hey, did you pick up the kids can you take out the trash did you do the dishes How was work today? Not like the you know surfacey conversations but like, Hey, how are you really doing? Yeah. How are you feeling about that? Well, and have you given permission in your relationship to not have those conversations? Yeah. You know, if you've if you've been living in that place, too, because those conversations are hard for you, or whatever, you hear a lot of people will they, they, they he this she that right, we'll stop for a minute and just take accountability. Yeah, like I think any strong man or woman, if they can take accountability for how they got to a place that maybe doesn't bring them peace or joy, something's not working. Like just stand in your own feet. take accountability. look yourself in the mirror and honor yourself and your shortcomings on how you got there. Well, that's what my beautiful friend Michelle will say, the minute you start saying they are them and not in you're pissed off about something they they they then then them, it's like, oh, let's turn that finger around and go, where are you doing this? Where are you showing up in the world in this way? Oh, for sure. I think accountability is such an important piece. And and if we're going to have a conversation, like let's say that we're really unhappy about something that's happened, like, it goes back to what is the goal of the conversation? is our goal to blow this up? Like, is that where we're at? Or is the goal of the conversation to move forward in a positive loving way? And how, what do you what do you want that to look like? and choosing your words wisely, not attacking them personally. And if you are fighting, whatever, I mean, obviously, we're not we're all human. So there's been times where you're like, Oh, shit, like, Oh, crap. But again, if if you look back and you say, I really feel terrible that I responded that way. Going to your person. You want to fit your kid, and I've done this. Oh, yeah. saying I'm so sorry that I handled it that way. Yeah. That was wrong of me. And I'm sorry. And not saying it was wrong of me. This is why I did it. And here's my excuse. The button negates the whole, you know, I'm sorry that that happened. Please forgive me. Yeah. That in and of itself in any relationship, that shows gratitude that shows grace that shows empathy, that shows unconditional love, it shows that you honor them. And you, you, you're giving them permission to honor you too. Yeah. I think in any relationship, if you want something you I in my belief, you had to be willing to give it. If you want it, you have to be willing to give it Oh, 100% Yeah, totally. I totally agree. And I like that whole day them. If you catch yourself saying, Yeah, I think those are the catch catch words. When you start doing that. It's like, oh, where do I need to look at that? Well, I think the greatest relationships, I mean, I consider my relationship to be great. I mean, we were all in like Kelly and I are both very, we're very passionate people who either love it or hate it. Especially Kelly, that's kind of the joke. Can you just meet in the middle? Do you really have to love it that much? That much is the best ever or the worst ever. Right? But we're just all in. Yeah, like, we just want it we stand in our greatness because we live big. And we love big. And so obviously, when we fight sometimes this big Yeah. And I've never been in a fight with Kelly, where there was ever a moment where I'm like, does he not love me? Yeah, he might be unhappy, I might be unhappy. But the feeling of love that deep, unconditional love is always there. It's always there. And that's the same with my sisters, my kids, like there's always that like, love. And I think that comes from daily practice of gratitude and kindness and friendship. And when setting that phone, you talked about building a house, right? The foundation? Yeah. And then the walls, like I think it's just, and there's levels of communication, like, wholeheartedly we communicate differently now than I did when I was 17 when I was 21, when I was 30 when I was 35. I mean, there's levels. And that comes with consistency. Like there's levels of communication, and that comes from just that consistent. Like we got to talk about this because it's bugging me. Yeah. And if I don't talk about it, it's gonna get worse, it's gonna get worse. And then I'm going to storytelling, then I'm going to create resentment. And and, and, and and, yeah, I totally agree. So you had talked about self when we do our own work? Right? Like, we have to do your own work. And then they do their own work. I think that that's when you do your self work. You're showing up for your other your person. Yeah. Well, at the at the end of the day, for everything that we do in life is selfish, actually. We it's from a self, something inside of us that's desiring an outcome of something. And so all of our actions meet that what do we want our lives to look like? Do we want them to be peaceful, happy? You know, obviously, we're if we were more intentional about what we're creating in our life, we'd probably be making different choices. And this is one of those. If you're wanting a healthy co creative relationship, how are you showing up? How are you showing up? Because your actions are probably may not be meeting what you're wanting to see in your relationship, you're probably not showing up in that way. So true. It makes me think of even just did that even make sense? I'm like, What did I just say? Do you ever have those moments that you're like, I was, I was like seeing this information. And I'm like, dude, like, I don't even Anyway, you showing up. Like, I think that's what Yeah, when you're talking about doing your work, the whole point of that is the N word, the state of who we are reflects our outer world. So if we don't do our inner work, our outer world will be chaotic. It'll be hectic, it'll be frustrating, it'll be and you will continually attract that in your life until you do take the time to go inside and go, okay. All right, soul body, whatever you want to call it, let's let's go look at this stuff. It's true. And being you know, such so passionate about communication, like in my office, I used to be a coordinator for a company called purse ingenix. And the concept, most of you will understand what purse ingenix is. So I will use like five love languages, right? everyone's kind of familiar with that, like, how do you like to receive love? And I find that when I was doing these sessions, you know, one of the questions when in our trainings is I would ask people, like, Who's the most frustrating person for you to communicate with? And he quickly everyone is able to like name? Well, when they do this. And so in those courses, I would teach people and I think this is is taught me through my marriage, right? And through all my relationships, instead of focusing on how I want information. What if I just focused on what your love language was, or your personality style, or your communication style. So in our office, we would have name tags on everyone's desk, and then we would have what their first and second style was. So if I walk over to Amanda's desk, and I need to ask her something, I'm quickly gonna see that her first is expressive, and her second is dominant. So I know that Amanda wants me to go, bottom line, I got to get straight to the point. Right? She 100%. So I know that manda likes receive information. So if I'm gonna get to that Brandis desk, it would be ridiculous of me to walk over to Amanda's desk and communicate with her how I like to be communicated. Yeah. So I inherently that was part of our culture was, how does how does Amanda like to receive information? What is the best way for you to go to Amanda's space, like your workspace, right, and communicate with you. And I think that is such a powerful tool in my business. And in my marriage. I'm not saying that how I like to receive information is not important. But if that's the only thing that's important, then that's not a give and take relationship. And I'm going to go to Amanda and I'm going to tell you, I'm going to talk to you and then I'm immediately going to gain admiration and respect from you. Because we had an effective conversation. Yeah, I feel validated. I feel Yeah, there's a it's a way different level of communication. I love that. So I would encourage people if they have done five love languages, stop focusing on your love language, do you because you know yours inherently. Do you know your partner's? Yeah. And if you don't, then familiarize yourself with that. And if you're gonna say, Well, my partner won't do that book or that language? Or that, what is the thing, the quiz or whatever you do, then you do it for them, how you see them, so that you can maybe understand what their love languages, because you can't give what you you can't get what you don't give. Yeah. And I think that we're the we're the master of our own life. So if we can't step into that, first and foremost, then I think I think that is just an unhealthy. It's an unhealthy relationship. It's an unhealthy way to communicate in business, in your family, in your marriage in any kind of healthy relationship. And I don't know, it's just fascinating to me that most people are like, well, he knows my love language. And he he he again, I'm like, what's his? Yeah, why don't remember? Well, you should probably check yourself because you can't get what you're not giving. Yeah, it is so fascinating, really, that we have been, because that is that is I'm grateful that this spiritual kind of community is really becoming more and like the self help, and that kind of thing is becoming more of the norm now. Because they feel like 20 years ago, good god, I mentioned the word energy in front of my family and you would have thought I said something satanic for granted. It's Mormon based and whatnot. But what the reason why I'm saying that is, you know, the things that you're talking about with will, you know, he knows what my love languages so why is he not doing all these things? I feel like that's been an old way of being in relationships for a very long time. It just has been, you know, how can I please my person or you mean there's two sides of it. You go back into like, really old, where you have dinner on the table and you're always taking care of your person and ended at an end and you're completely drained and tapped out and you Whatever happens, and this to, to what you're talking about where people there are a lot of people in this world that like to bitch about how everybody else has done them wrong, and they know all the things. So why are they not showing up better? It's like, well, where are you not showing up for yourself in those ways where you're not showing up for your partner in those ways. So I'm so grateful that this these kind of communications and these kind of conversations are happening more and more where now our world is shifting more into that conscious co creative relationships instead of an unconscious relationship. That's just, well, this is what I want. Well, you're not giving it to me. You're supposed to make me happy. Exactly. Or you hear like, he knew I had a bad day at work. Why is he asking me what's for dinner? kind of conversation? Well, when was the last time you heard your partner's voice? So use? You stepped in and said, I understand that you're having a rough day, what can I do for you are just doing it? Yeah. Right. Because you're not getting that because you're not giving it? Yeah. And I think that, like you had said, relationships bring up the deepest part in ourselves. So you, I mean, looking at yourself, is that's not easy thing to do. That is not an easy thing to do. But I found in our marriage, those cycles, right? When there's times that maybe we're feeling stuck, or I'm not feeling like, you know, that loving feeling, then I'm like, what, what is it that I need to like, shift and look into here? Yeah, because there's something that, you know, I'm bringing that on myself. So that, you know, that is something as far as a tool with, if you're noticing that you're saying they are them or you're constantly like you are not happy in your relationship and not happy with your partner, the I would take the biggest thing of how you're, you're frustrated with your person, he doesn't hear me. And I would turn it back in I'm saying he because I'm a woman, I would turn it back. So it could be he or she, I turn it back into yourself and go, where am I not listening? In my world? Who? Where am I not showing up in this way? And is it with myself? Is it with friends? Is it with my kids? Is it do i do that with my spouse? My partner? My guy? That is one of the tools that I would say that if you could take one takeaway from what we're talking about? Just that simple thing of catching yourself and recognizing and going within and going, where am I showing up in the world in this way? And why? Yeah, I think that's a powerful exercise to do. It's really it's so simple, it's painful, it can be painful to look at those places. Very painful. Another thing as I think when I've we've gotten into those slumps, right is coming, just flipping the switch and coming from a place of gratitude. And really just journaling everyday things that I'm grateful for. In that person, it might not be like a marriage, or marriage or partnership, any kind of partnership that you're struggling with. Right? Just okay. Obviously, it's I'm, I'm seeing all the things that aren't working. Okay, what is working, and finally finding the gratitude Yeah, in in that relationship. And you'll start attracting more and more of that your world will shift. And in fact, Dr. I think I don't, I don't, I hope you don't care that I share this. But he was going through some challenging places in his life, and fairly recently, and one of the things and he shared that he was doing this later, but one of the things he would do before he went to bed every night was going through all the things he was grateful for in his life. And he will tell you, that was the one thing that really shifted his world. And it took some time it's practice, it's practice to go through because a lot of times we get so it's easier sometimes to focus on what doesn't work. Yeah, then what does. And it's interesting that we have a tendency to do that. But it's like when we start actually shifting the way that we see the world, the world we see shifts? For sure. I think, you know, you had said earlier Kelly kind of alluded to that it's not 5050, it's 100% and 100%, I would take it one step deeper and say 50% of any relationship is 100% and 100%. Like, I'm not meeting you in the middle, like I'm coming all the way and you're coming all the way. And whatever that means for you. And, you know, if you're having a relationship, that that's not the case, like, then you have to ask yourself, like, what brings you peace? Is the relationship bring you peace, stepping out of the relationship bring you peace, I'm not advocating for divorce or anything. I also I also just believe that it's working or it's not when when there's a point of too much effort, and your your person's not obeying you, and you're not honored, and you are feeling small and you're feeling stifled, then, you know, first look at yourself like what what is in me that's bringing about this, is this a pattern in relationships? Or is or is this is this relationship, not bringing out the best in me? And so I'm going to share something personal and I'll Little vulnerable in my relationship now a Travis wanted the challenges that I have is being all in, in the sense. Now let me rephrase that not being all in but give like my walls coming all the way down. I'm all in in my relationship, let me make that very clear. But my walls coming all the way down I've always had, and he knows that we've had conversations around this, there's always a little bit of that protection mechanism within me. And I'm aware of it. And I know why. I mean, I've been through some traumatic relationships. And the reason why I bring this up, and I even recently, I'm still moving through this, I mean, I've been in a relationship for, you know, six years with my husband. And we've been through a lot of really deep, hard, difficult conversations and have grown a ton from it. And I'm still working through this piece of Can I allow my heart to be completely unguarded because I've had past hurts from previous partners and different things in my life. And can I completely be 100% vulnerable in that space of all in, in all my walls being completely done. And it's still something that I, I'm still working through and moving through. And so as, as Jessica was sharing, and say, and we're both sharing these things, I just want to put voice to, it's not always easy. And it does take time, and our healing process gets to take as long as we need it to. And oftentimes, healing is circular. So when we go through something like this with me for what I just shared, I might remove some part of the wall. And then a year later, there's another piece that pops that I get to go look at. And then I go through another phase of looking at a deeper piece that was asked, that's asking to be looked at. And we get permission, and we get to give ourselves permission to move at the pace that we need to as long as we're moving. Now, if we get stuck in something that's obviously not healthy for a lot of different reasons. I mean, if you look at water, if there's no flowing water in a pond, what happens to the water, totally stagnant, gross, I mean, disgusting. And it's the same thing with our emotional state and our energy work and how we're moving through the healing process. We get to move at our own pace. But the point is, do you want to move you want to acknowledge it and move through it so that you can see what's on the other side and and have a capacity of experiencing something deeper? Right. So I love that you shared that. So the walls, right? I mean, you've heard of like heart walls? Yeah. So I think it was what quote, were we talking about where there's boundaries versus walls? And the difference like, Amanda was the one who shared that. Yeah, if we set boundaries for ourselves, that's that's a healthy thing. are we creating walls? And recognizing the difference? Yeah. Are we combining? Are we almost convoluting? The two of here's a wall, and I'm not going to really let you in? versus hey, here's the boundary of what I'm, I'm not okay with toxic language. Like, there's a difference between the two. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's a really, in fact, maybe we'll have to find that post that I think Amanda reshared it from something else. And it was, yeah, it was a, it was a really good thing to consider. But I think it's, I mean, what you're sharing is a co creative way to express, you're talking, you're saying I have I have walls about this, right. So that's co creative. you're sharing how you're feeling, you're giving him an opportunity to like step in and create what that communication looks like for you. I think that is this central definition of being co creative. You're saying, Hey, this is coming up for me and I have some walls. And then you navigate together, how you move through that. So you are growing as opposed to just stepping out. One a lot of that really has to do with me has nothing to do with Travis, other than he knows that it's there. You know, he puts it he'll, he'll communicate it, he feels it because there's that energetic exchange of emotion and energy doesn't lie, right? And all he can do is just keep showing up, which he does. He is always showing up for me always like that man will hold me in my darkest moments. And I don't know that I can truthfully, authentically say I do that to the same degree with him that he does with me, which I am working on. You know, because we're human, and we're here to learn and grow. And, but he does, he always shows up in those ways. Well, and I think because you're moving forward together, that time will come. Oh, yeah. I mean, hopefully, and if it doesn't, it's fine. It's what we're, as far as you know, I die on my deathbed. And it's like, well, I still had a heart, you know, part of that heart wall that was up, it's like, and, you know, it's okay to, it's okay to we we get to do the best with what we have and continue to increase what the best looks like. And the idea that were meant to be perfect. Like, the Word Perfect is just such a in so many ways. It's such a sad thing and what we've attached to the meaning of that and it's like we get to be Perfect in our imperfection? Well, there's so much when I think of perfect I think of comparison, which, you know, they say comparison is the thief of joy. And, and that that is so such a true statement because someone else's perfect is we think they're perfect right? Is Yeah, doesn't need to be my perfect right, you know, at all in any way, shape or form. Right. So I feel like the reason why I wanted to share those was just that, you know, just Can I can sit here and talk about how we have these beautiful relationships. And we, we are coaches and healers and do all sorts of things. And we're, I'm going to say, Wait, me, because I won't speak for you. But anyway, I'm still always moving through my stuff. And we get to hold space for ourselves and be soft with ourselves and not feel like we have to have everything figured out. Now there is not a destination and healing. There's not a destination in our spiritual work. There's not a destination and we have goals that Yeah, we'll go and meet. But this idea that Oh, once I once I look at that it'll forever be gone. It's like it could be. And there's more than likely another piece that will come up. When I left Mormonism, I had to look at a lot of different pieces and had a lot of peace, no problem. And I was shocked when I was hit with another layer of Holy shit. And I had a big piece pop. And it was just another reminder of healing and circular. You know, it'll keep keeps moving. And that's great. I think that's how we grow is by healing and peeling back the layers of the onion, right? Yeah. whether or not those layers are created by your person or other. I mean, a grown man can deal with their childlike Oh, variances, right? That is where the Shadow Work comes from. We're human. And so I think that if we're doing that, and if we're doing it wholeheartedly, from a place of unconditional love, and I'm holding space for you, authentically, then we do grow together. Yeah. Something else I wanted to share is just, you know, the power of choice. And how we choose in every single day. Yeah, to our partnership or relationship. I mean, I just for us, I choose, I choose Kelly, I choose me, I choose us, every single day. There's not. I mean, I know some people can't say that now. And they feel maybe like they have to be there. For whatever reason, while it just becomes habit. Yeah, relationships, oftentimes they think become habit. And it's just, it's not a conscious relationship. It is a unconscious, we're just going through the motions. So I like that idea of Everyday I'm choosing you is a beautiful thought, you know, I've actually having to go in and go Yeah, I'm choosing my person. And these are the reasons why. Yeah. But the thought that keeps coming over and over and over again, is, is we do have a tendency in relationships to get convoluted and each other where things start just blending and blurring, and everything that we're talking about. And all these tools and the things that I've learned that Jessica has learned, that we've experienced, is it's really seeing your person for who they are, instead of who we think they should be. You know, it's like we can do that for a girlfriend, hopefully, maybe and some some of you this may not resonate. And if that's the case, I would encourage you to go look at this. But we can sit there with a loved one or with a client or with whoever, and see them as their individual self. But can we really do that with our partner? You know, especially women, can you really look at your man and go, you know what, you get to cry, and you get to have your emotions and you get to go through whatever it is just because you're a man doesn't mean that you don't have that. Yeah, you know, oh, they're just as human as maybe their heart wall is up a little more because they were conditioned, conditioned, that, you know, men don't cry or whatever that is for them. But I think that yeah, that's not always the case. No, it's not. And it's Yeah, being able to see your person for who they are, I think is is a gift and a quality to really cultivate. Like, can I just think them as a friend, right? Like you're saying, if they're talking to a girlfriend, like, I'm really just honoring wherever she's at, there's no judgment there. Yeah. And you're able to do that because her experience their experience is nothing to do with you. Yeah, right. So you can do that. So if you can practice that with your person and on see them for their goodness, like see them for what they the abilities that they have instead of again, just that, I think because I'm I'm speaking to this because I've been in those relationships where I haven't been in autopilot. I have been in those types of relationships to where I don't know that I really saw my person like there was no i don't you know, versus now what I have today is vastly different. And that would be one of the pieces is I actually I see Travis and for what he's capable of and who he is and his heart and you know, all these qualities that that really is what you fell in love with this person, and then you forget about it. I was just gonna say that I think a great takeaway would be like, if you're feeling that, you know, not feeling that loving feeling, I'm gonna, if I could sing, I would sing that loving feeling that from Top Gun is like, what, what brings you joy in your relationship? Like really asking yourself, like, we talked about a few things the other day, but for us like road trips, like if we're feeling like a stagnant or we go on a road trip, just the two of us, you know, we sleep outside, often in the summer on a mattress dominate the stars. That's totally our thing. Like we leave love notes, songs. I love music. Music is such a love language, you know, over the course of our marriage, when we've been going through, you know, some really hard times, Kelly's always said, He's not great with words. And so he we started a music exchange. So every week, and you know, again, things Evan flow sound like we do this every week for 31 years. But he would send me songs, yeah, in ways that he wanted to communicate how he was feeling. But he didn't know how to put it into words. So a song does that. Yeah. So those are things that I think have brought us joy, like little treats, like things that I know he loves, like, I would encourage you, if your person really likes this treat, go purchase that tree and hand it to him and just say, I choose you, I love you. What is that for an act of service? It's just an act of service. It's just an act of showing love, I think, looking for those things going back to what you said, What? How did what was it about you that I fell in love with and rekindling those things? You know, I think I shared last time we did the 62nd, wessing. Right. We for several years, like the first thing we say to each other when we wake up is I love you. And I'll kiss on the forehead, I see you. I share those things, because I'm just, they may not work for you. If you're listening this, they may not resonate. But what does resonate, right, finding those things that you have between your person that the little things unique thing, those unique things, the only, you know, like, rekindle those, bring those back to life. When I'm I do not remember who or when or what, how this came about. But I was doing some healing work with one of my exes. And the person said, what was it that you fell in love with him about? Which when you go through any kind of a toxic marriage that ends up ending? Having someone then say to you, so how, why did you fall in love with him and actually shifting into that state? It's actually really, it's challenging, but it's really powerful. And the reason why I felt to throw this out is Who knows if you're in a partnership, you know, and what stage and you may be if you've been divorced, or maybe you're in a place right now in a partnership to where it's pretty bad. Being able to really look at and going back. And going back to those moments of what was it that really, that you fell in love with, with this person about is a really powerful tool, either with healing from a past relationship, or in a relationship that you're currently in now. It can be powerful, and it allows you to actually to have more compassion for that person and the ability to forgive. In my experience, I agree with you. I think my final thoughts I know, we're probably getting short on time. There's a saying that I heard a long time ago, you know, social media, just watching your friends. If maybe you're in a place that's not as beautiful as what you think someone else looks like, right? Instagram, liars. That comparison is I heard a saying I and I will just leave this. I mean, I'm not you. You're not me. Once you see that the rest will make a lot more sense after that. Yeah. And just really recognizing that somebody else's story is not your story. Yeah. And really honoring where you're at, wherever that is on being with where you're at. Yeah, I love that. And you don't have to explain your heartaches to other people that you know. Yeah. I just think that everyone just needs to realize that I'm not you. You're not me. Once we all see that a lot more will make sense after that. I just think that is where a good place for everyone to kind of, do you do you do what works for your relationship now. And hopefully, you know, a few of the concepts that we've shared will be of benefit to people because I'm really passionate about relationships and healthy relationships. And you know, those of you out there that maybe they don't you don't have if people ask me, Well, how do I find my person? I think my answer is you being whole first. finding yourself finding yourself first. Yeah. And your person will appear awesome in all their wholeness too, right? Yeah. deep sigh deep sigh Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today. If you want to find more information with how to connect with Jessica or myself, Jessica, you've can find her at her website devenish duo.com. And me and my website is Amanda joy leveling calm. And both of us are very interactive with social media. So jump on there, find both of us. It's easy, we're easy to find. We're around. But as always, we hope that something that we shared was helpful for you in your week this next week and sending you all so much love. And so it is