In this episode Amanda and Jessica share their personal experiences with grief and some tools they have found to help them on their journey. Only you will know what is meant for you.
Jessica shares the idea that grief is "the healing" and expands on the five stages of grief. The stages are not always experienced in this order, there is no time frame, no path, no directions, road map or right or wrong way to navigate the loss you may be feeling.
Denial = disbelief, shock, refusal, numb, isolation.
Anger = blame, looking for answers, resentment, lash out
Bargaining = deep sorrow, looking to find meaning, pain and guilt, if-only stage
Depression = sadness, loneliness, hopelessness, affirm reality
Acceptance = understanding, turning point, integrate loss into every day life
Amanda shares a profound quote expanding that grief is not only the loss of a loved one, there are many facets to grief and loss:
It is not to late to grieve this; the person you used to be, the grieving of the parent you never had, the friendship that ended, the relationship you couldn't fix, the boundaries you had that were ignored, not having anyone to believe in you as a child, the shame you felt as a kid for having feelings, wishing someone knew how you felt growing up, not having adults to teach you how to cope with life as a child, the childhood you had to miss because you had to grow up to fast.
Our shared take-aways:
Amanda shared to give yourself space, perhaps write, release the emotions onto paper and burning these letters to help transmute the energy.
Jessica shared to offer yourself grace, kindness, compassion and opportunity to grieve and feel all that you need to feel without judgment.
Resources:
Anatomy of Spirit, the seven stages of power and healing by Caroline Myss
Where can you connect with us:
Instagram:
@amanda.joy.loveland
@jessica.lee.devenish
Facebook:
Amanda Joy Loveland
Jessica Carnesecca Devenish
Group: What is personal is universal
Website:
www.amandajoyloveland.com
www.devenishduo.com
In this episode Amanda and Jessica share their personal experiences with grief and some tools they have found to help them on their journey. Only you will know what is meant for you.
Jessica shares the idea that grief is "the healing" and expands on the five stages of grief. The stages are not always experienced in this order, there is no time frame, no path, no directions, road map or right or wrong way to navigate the loss you may be feeling.
Denial = disbelief, shock, refusal, numb, isolation.
Anger = blame, looking for answers, resentment, lash out
Bargaining = deep sorrow, looking to find meaning, pain and guilt, if-only stage
Depression = sadness, loneliness, hopelessness, affirm reality
Acceptance = understanding, turning point, integrate loss into every day life
Amanda shares a profound quote expanding that grief is not only the loss of a loved one, there are many facets to grief and loss:
It is not to late to grieve this; the person you used to be, the grieving of the parent you never had, the friendship that ended, the relationship you couldn't fix, the boundaries you had that were ignored, not having anyone to believe in you as a child, the shame you felt as a kid for having feelings, wishing someone knew how you felt growing up, not having adults to teach you how to cope with life as a child, the childhood you had to miss because you had to grow up to fast.
Our shared take-aways:
Amanda shared to give yourself space, perhaps write, release the emotions onto paper and burning these letters to help transmute the energy.
Jessica shared to offer yourself grace, kindness, compassion and opportunity to grieve and feel all that you need to feel without judgment.
Resources:
Anatomy of Spirit, the seven stages of power and healing by Caroline Myss
Where can you connect with us:
Instagram:
@amanda.joy.loveland
@jessica.lee.devenish
Facebook:
Amanda Joy Loveland
Jessica Carnesecca Devenish
Group: What is personal is universal
Website:
www.amandajoyloveland.com
www.devenishduo.com
Hi there, we know that what is personal is universal. I am Amanda Loveland. And I am Jessica devenish. Welcome to the conversation. Hi, how are you today? Good. How are ya? ready to jump into our conversation on grief? Just get right to it. Why not? I know that's like, are you ready to talk about grief? Hell yeah. Why not? Let's bring it up. I also want to just start off by saying that the feedback we've got on other episodes is there's this overwhelming pattern of people saying, I loved what you shared. And I'm realizing that my situations broken. My situation needs fixing. And I just feel compelled to share that nothing's broken. Nothing needs fixing. I believe everything's in Divine Order. divine timing, our divine path. Yeah. And with it, it is what it needs to be. It's not it's not broken, right. Yeah. No, in fact, I commented on your I don't know if you saw that on a post. What is it that and I've also been getting messages, private messages to like, gosh, I really listened to this. And I didn't realize my relationship was codependent. I don't want that. Well, and that my that's way more to fix than I thought. And that's partly why we're sharing what we've learned. Because we didn't i didn't know this in a previous relationship, what codependence was versus co creative. Yeah. And it's like, this is just stuff that we're, we're sharing, and we're learning. And I will, I would love to offer this. Everything in our life is a reflection of really, our inner state. So when we get to that place to where we're comparing, and we're doing the comparison game, just know that it's pinging upon things within you that feel lacking, that it actually has nothing to do with that other person. It's just places for you to go look within. But when we start doing that comparison game, nobody wins. nobody wins. And I do it. goodness sakes, I was just doing that today. And I'm catching myself. And it's like, Okay, what what here needs to be looked at within me, so that I can feel more like softer with myself of Okay, so this person is doing this that way, and you love it? Why are you comparing yourself to them? Yeah, they're them. You're you go own it. And you're Yes, you're on your path, doing your things, the way that you get to do it, and learning the way that you are like, the only thing that's difference between Jessica and I is that we felt called to do this podcast. And so we're doing it and sharing our experiences. There's no better than or less than, or we're experts. And like, none of that is just willing, even sharing little things that work for Kelly and I, I'm not saying do those things. Yeah, I'm saying, here's some examples of things that work for us. So create your own, in your own reinvent your own. Yeah, I'll just go back. Awareness is a beautiful gift. So if you're saying, what I'm recognizing that what I'm doing isn't working for me, then that in and of itself is a gift. Yeah. And then you have an opportunity to make it co create and look like you want it to look, you're bringing the we don't know until we know your brain, the unconscious or your subconscious conscious. And really, that's what most healing is most personal growth is is becoming more and more aware of the shadow aspects or the subconscious or unconscious mind. Because we do get caught and just going with the flow. And when we get more into that intuitive, not intuitive, but being more intentional with the life that we want to create, then we get to start looking at these pieces. But yeah, when you start doing the comparison game, I would take a breath and go there's nothing to compare to. It's just an awareness of Hey, maybe I would like to have my relationship look a little different. And then in that it's a beautiful gift. But like you said, Yeah, nothing is broken. Yeah, nothing needs to be fixed. Yeah, I'm not seeing a pattern with feedback. And I just wanted to share that. Yeah, I'm glad you did. I think it's important that people, the awareness is the gift now. Now co create what you want from there. Turn the page. So the reason grief popped for me is because the very first episode you had asked me, like some defining moments in my life. And quickly I shared the passing of my brother in law. And it's been pinging for me this week, because we're going to Wyoming and that is the place where you know, he was killed in the car accident. That's the place where my husband and his brother grew up. So as much as he loves that place, he has often referred to it as a graveyard. Yeah. So there's a lot of emotions that come up with that note as we're preparing to travel there. So I thought you know, there's just remind me Kelly's brother's name Cory. Cory. That's Kelly and Cory, Kelly and Cory. Yeah, at the funeral. Some of the young men. I mean, they were young men. They were like, 1415 that actually we're speaking and grieving? Kelly and Corey, we're so interconnected. Like Cory was left handed Kelly was right handed. So literally, the left hand right hand. Yeah. And they were the Duke boys. So Cory was dark hair. Kelly was blonde, and they were wild. Crazy, dude. I will. They were the Duke boys. And when these young men were sharing their grief at the funeral, they were saying Kelly and Cory in all interesting discussion as it was a death of the two of them together. Yeah. And the energy of that really stuck, you know, yeah, upheld, Kelly's experience and my experience and just that whole, because I was looking back and thinking, yeah, they were really grieving the loss of this duo. Really? Yeah. Because they were in separable. So it was 20 years, this may 4, that he was killed in a car accident. And as much as they I wanted to share the story, just because I think it's fascinating. And I and I believe it's gonna resonate with some people, and then maybe kind of share just the five stages of grief and kind of what that looks like. Because grieving is like part of the healing. Yeah. And I think just sharing that and what that looks like. But the day that we got the phone call, that he had passed away. Four months have gone by and they hadn't spoken. They had a disagreement, their business partners. And Kelly had pulled away from the devenish construction business and came to work with me. Cory really didn't love that. Yeah. Okay. And looking back, just like when I left check net, and I wasn't sure why I felt this desire to pull away. I almost feel like there's some truth in why Kelly pulled away from devenish construction. Because, in some crazy way, I believe it was preparing him for now being without his left hand for the rest of his life. Yeah, because Cory died at 32. And wild die young. You've heard that, like he lived a lifetime, in 32 short years. But the day that we got the phone call, we were at lunch, it was about one o'clock. And we were eating a sandwich. And I remember it so vividly. Kelly just went to eat the sandwich. And he's like, I feel sick. Like I can't like someone just got punched me. Something's not right. And so you know, we had gone back to the office and went back to work. And we just thought maybe he just wasn't feeling good. And at three o'clock, I got a phone call that he had been in a car accident, and he died and it was about 115. Hmm. So Kelly had left the office. And I knew if I called him, there was no way I could tell him over the phone. I wanted to tell him in person. So my dad was working at the office at the same time. And I said, Dad, I need you to call Kelly. Cory has been in a car accident and he's passed away. And I can't say the words right, I can't down I can't do it over the phone. Because not only did I know that part of him had literally died. That the grief and the guilt for not talking for four months, because they were inseparable. was gonna be a heavy one. I don't know we started dating. Rarely was I with Kelly without Cory. I mean, Corey, referred to my dad as our father in law. Yeah, everywhere we went, like, we just my family just kind of wrapped their arms around both of them and just kind of tuck them in because his parents were going through a divorce at the time that we started dating. So our family really just kind of became their family. Yeah. And we were a family of girls. So having dude's around was pretty cool. And they were they were a blast. Like, super crazy fun. Emphasis on crazy fun. I even had a teacher that was like, you cannot date that DeVonish boy. You're the good girl. And I was like, anyway, funny story. But he had come back to the office. And when we told him I mean, I just he just part of him literally died. Yeah, no kidding about it. And him and his wife were separated at the time. There was just there was a lot of chaos because they hadn't been talking for four months, there was a lot of really unhealthy things going on. He was dating a girl who happened to be my cousin smile, crazy kidding twist of soap opera, this is made this story is made for soap operas, just so you know. So I won't get too far into the weeds. But he was he was managing the construction company because Kelly had come to work for me. And we had employees at the time. And the girlfriend had all the tools like she took the truck. And so as we're grieving and we're planning this funeral, unbeknownst to us, this girlfriend, who was my cousin at the time was hiding tools and trucks and all of his belongings. Anything that and, and he was 32 years old. There was no life insurance. There was no anything of value is in the middle of a divorce. It was just it there wasn't really like that. That she was taking Yeah, but it made it so devenus construction, it was done. It was over. There was no tools, we didn't even have access to tools. We couldn't even find them. I mean, and all of that chaos really kind of added to the, the turmoil in the green, no kidding, you know. And then he's got these two kids. And this wife because they're not divorced, they were separated. And so there was just this very chaotic, messy, messy, messy, such a great word was a messy. So it took Kelly, several months to I mean, I would say two years to really kind of find any kind of relief. I was gonna say, when with all that messiness, it would be hard to grieve and all of that, because it's like putting out fires. And then all of a sudden, you had his two kids too well, and they had moved to Cedar City, and they hadn't been there for very long because they were separated. And so she had taken the kids and moved to Cedar City with her flood of the family, because things weren't going well. And the kids wanted to be up here and Kelly really was like, they call them uncle daddy for a really long time, because it was very evident that we were going to be raising these kids at the time with them. So we thought you know, that was going to happen. But we we found out through a series of crazy events, you know, Kelly was having terrible nightmares. Terrible nightmares of Corey get feeling like Korea was lost. He couldn't find his way. Those were those were what he was dreaming and night and having nightmares about. And my cousin called me and she had just started in, she had just kind of had a few experiences of mediumship. And she called me and she's like, this is about six months after Corey had passed away. And she said, I know this is crazy. But I had a dream last night and Corey came to me is Kelly having nightmares. Now, my cousin didn't know this isn't the same cousin that was like, devastating. But she's like, he's coming to me in my dreams. And she was telling very specific things that Kelly was experiencing that he hadn't shared with anyone. Yeah. So Cory was trying to communicate. And so we went to a medium. At that time, he was like, I will do anything. And I would do anything to because I was losing my husband. Yeah, like he was. He had died. Like he wasn't working. He wasn't like, he just could not function in life. Like he was having physical symptoms to like it couldn't even like, turn a doorknob. Wow. He was just this, this grieving this thing that he was going through that he wasn't like, leaning into and moving through it. He didn't know what to do. And I was like, I don't think I really didn't think he was gonna live. So we had gone to a medium. And so this is four months after maybe longer. It might have been longer because he died in May of 2001. And that was the same year of 911. Oh, geez. And I was like, it's like a really bad year. No kidding. Everything's going to hell. Everything is just yeah. And so we had saw this medium. And Amanda. It was such a beautiful gift. Like he was Kelly was able to actually talk with Corey. And there was a healing that took place. And Cory shared the story that during the accident, where his grandpa Thorpe had come to take him to the other side. And he didn't want to go with him. He wasn't ready to die. So there's Kelly, part of him has died. Cory has gone through this physical death, and he's not ready to go to the other side. So he and you have choice, I believe you have choice in that. So you get stuck in between worlds. And so he's he's there. And he's what I what I would like to call a walk in, but not a full walk in like a partial walk in because Kelly was still you're saying Corey walked into Kelly? Yes. And so it was like, Kelly was having experiences that he couldn't even control. Like, sometimes I would look into his eyes. And not that Corey was an evil spirit or anything but that Corey was trapped, and having this turmoil, his own grieving of his own death. And I remember very vividly one day, Kelly had gotten upset about something and he was in the garage. And if you know, Kelly's mannerisms, like he's, he's not an angry person. And he was upset about something and he grabbed a baseball bat. I didn't know what was going to happen. I trusted that he would never harm me. So I walked up to this person that really was having this like, it wasn't him, but it was him. And I just grabbed him by the shoulders and I just said out loud in the name of Jesus Christ Satan. Be gone. didn't know what else to do. Yeah. And if this peaceful calming feeling came over me and he just, he just like, fell to his knees and just cried. Because he himself didn't know what was going on. Right. So I mean, this was just this. I had even call this cousin that had gone through some. Her parents had died. And she had been through this grieving. I had never been to any kind of tragic like this, ever. So I called her and I just, I need your advice. And so she gave me some great advice. And I really leaned on that. But when we went to this medium, Cory had really shared his story at the accident and what happened at the accident, and he told the vivid details of the accident in the truck and things that you always wondered. Yeah, because you don't know. Because where the accident was, he came around a corner, it was a flat. And these boys were the Duke boys. They lived on dirt roads, they knew how to drive trucks under roads. You know how you drift around the corners. He wasn't doing any of that he was just coming around a corner. It was flat area and his truck rolled three times he was the only one that was killed in the car accident. The other two gentlemen walked away without a scratch from that. And he there was a lot of healing that happened between the two because they were able to heal. Remember, they weren't speaking for for, right? Like they had this conversation that healed all of that pain. And that angsting that, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, brother, I'm sorry for what I did. And it doesn't matter now. And just this whole, really authentic genuine from the heart. And this woman we had never met her before. She didn't know who Cory was. So, um, I had always believed in mediums before I'd had my own experience with my grandpa. But we were really desperate. So we went with open, no, anything was up for the table. We I mean, we didn't go was saying, Oh, no, this can't be or let's your woman's gonna save us. We didn't go with any expectations. We were really like, we're scared. Because we've never experiencing anything like this before. And after that medium, things shifted for him. It like saved him. It saved Kelly, and it helped Cory pass on what I believe I helped him pass on to the other side. Yeah. And let go of what he was trying to hold on to here. And I think that, I don't know, I just felt compelled to share that story. Because I think that it happens to people. Are they getting stuck? I think they get stuck. And I think that whether the person that's passing is stuck in between or the person that's grieving is stuck. In my head. I mean, that's part of what a shaman does, I do a lot of death rites for spirits. In fact, I had a client the other day, I've never had some I had had three or four relatives that had passed, that all came in asking for death rates I've never had that many come in at one time. Usually it's one. And what happens because we are energetic beings, we are energy in motion. And we have these chakra systems. And they are, you know, the beautiful thing about science. Now science is really starting to back more and more of these energetic systems. It is backing it it is we're having more scientific evidence that yes, we are energetic beings. Matter is 99 990 9.999% space, it just there's nothing that's its energy, it's anyway. So when we have traumatic deaths, or we have unresolved things, or there's something like that a child dying, there can be cords attached, there can be heaviness, and things that are stuck in the chakras that are there creating an energetic bind into the earth. And because of what I do, I actually will pull in, there's different without getting into too much details. There's just a lot of there's a lot of different levels of existence that we don't see with our human physical eyes. And I think that I in fact, I was just having a conversation with my 18 year old son who was saying, I wish I could, I would if I could have dinner with anybody alive or data, I would love to talk to Papa, my dad. And I said, Ben, you can do that any day. Like just because you're not here in the physical doesn't mean you can't have that conversation. And I I like for me having more and more of these conversations of just because somebody is not hearing the physical does not mean they're gone. Now I get that everybody's belief is not that. But I think being open to the idea that I mean, what is it that how many ounces that they've now shown scientifically leaves the body? What is it? Have you seen there's actually a movie about this, they there was these doctors that took weighted beds and they brought in people that were terminally ill and they measured every single person that died, the weight difference, and every single one had I can't remember how many ounces leave their body grams, or maybe it grant was grams, I'll find out what it is. And we'll post in the show notes. But here again is a scientific thing that shows something leaves the body when people die, it's just there's scientific proof of that. And so being open to the idea that Yeah, just because they're not in the physical does not mean that they stop moving. They stop living that they stop. Well, isn't it interesting that like, speaking of movies like the movie safe haven jasha Mel, Julianne Hough, right. Yeah. Joshua Moe's wife dies Julianne Hough is escaping this crazy husband. And she meets this woman in the woods, Joe, who's her BFF and helps her through this. Yeah. And at the end of the movie, I mean, spoiler alert. For those that haven't seen it right. But the end of the movie, the woman that has befriended Julianne Hough is Joshua Mel's deceased wife? Yeah, and everyone loves that movie, because it's so heartwarming. And we love the idea of that. We love the idea that we're being supported by something on the other side, but then when it happens to somebody like my story, they're like, oh, no way. Well, why? Because it's not on a movie screen. And it's not like glorified with Julianne Hough and Josh jumel. Like, but we love that people love that concept. And they love that whole idea. So why is it interesting to me? Why is it that people they love that idea that glorified romanticized on the big screen, but when it happens in a daily, they're like, That's crazy. I know what I mean. Yeah, no, I totally know what you mean. I mean, I'm hesitant to share some of the things that I do because I, I work in woowoo, land times a gajillion, like places that I go visit and see and are are not saying I don't, and I'm cautious to share, share some of the things because there is a lot of judgment around it. But there's a lot of judgment, because it's not something that's taught in school, and they've never experienced it. So there's judgment that will that can't be because I've never experienced it. But if you have or weed or weed, because we can't see it in the physical, then we want to disprove it, or we want to say that this actually didn't This doesn't exist, it doesn't happen. But we'll go sit down and watch a scary movie with with things being possessed. And, and that exists, but I don't want you. I don't want to call that in either. Yeah, and skinwalker Ranch, look how popular that is like it's the same concept of what I'm saying here in that it happened in real life. Yeah, and not. And not that Corey was a dark spirit. But he was lost like he was trapped. And so that brings on a heavy entity energy where, you know, he, he took over part of Kelly's body, I believe. Yeah. And Natalie, that happens. A lot of half of Kelly dies and quarries. In this life death cycle where he hasn't moved over. You can have a partial walk in and then you get what we had. Yeah, I believe that to be true. And, you know, when you're talking about grieving, like there's the five stages, right? So Kelly's in denial and shock, right? He's like, this cannot be like, it's a refusal, I'm numb. I can't even wrap my head around the idea that my brother's gone. And then you get angry, right? He was just angry. So then you're looking outward, and you're like, I'm going to blame everyone. I'm going to blame God, I'm gonna blame that I wasn't there that we weren't talking. Like, this is punishment for me because we weren't talking and there's just all that, and then you're lashing out, right? And then there's the what I call it the if only stage but I believe the term is bargaining stage. So the anger is where you go outward. I think the bargaining stage is where you go inward and then you start and then he was blaming himself like this deep sorrow of if only we were talking, would he have gone to Wyoming to go fishing that day? If only I hadn't left the business. And we'd be working together with things have been different. So there was like this spiraling that took place. It was like a perfect storm, right? Yeah. Where Cory wasn't passed over. And Kelly Wasn't he was not accepting the death. Yeah, he was in such denial. And then you know, this deep weeping like depression, right? depression is like, like the understanding where you just can't, it's like, we're death and sadness, like collide where you just cannot. It's not a mental health depression. It's like, if I can, I don't know if I can live without this person. Yeah. Yeah, your reality has changed. part of you is changed your, I would imagine to in that circumstance, there were literal cells in his biology that were changing and dying off like his life was over and there was so much it was hopelessness, like that impending doom filling. Yeah, that many people describe in depression is like, my life's over I cannot live without this other person. Yeah. And I think the turning point was going to this medium where he there was an acceptance that took place which is the fifth step of grieving generally and it's and you know, the five steps of grieving let me just say like there's no there's no path like there's no rules like some people go to acceptance right away and then later hit the denial stage and later hit like there's no those are just the five stages you know, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance but you In that order, always Yeah. But until he he hit the acceptance stage, was he able to integrate it into his new life? And really come to the terms? Yeah, that my brother is gone. And I am here. And the Kelly, Cory do all that once was, is no longer now and finding his new, normal, and then having these two children that he needed to step in and parent and parent and be there for them and take care of them. And, you know, that was a whole nother set because there was no financial recourse because there was no life insurance. Yeah, not very many people have life insurance at 32 years old. Yeah, you know, in my experience anyway, so. And, I mean, I was, as I'm writing my book, because I'm writing my book called defining moments, and I'm sharing these stories. I had gone back as I'm writing this chapter, and I found some old journal entries. And Amanda, they are rough. Like I am pleading with God to say, Please don't take my husband to I cannot lose him, too. Because I lost my brother of us only brother I ever knew. Yeah. I mean, I and just like pleading in these journals, like, you know, Please, God just help him. Except the death help us all except the step like what what is next for us? And I think over time, you kind of forget those Oh, yeah, dark times. But as I'm putting this book together, and I'm reading those journal entries, and, and I'd also his kids were four and seven when he died. And inherently, there's very little memory. Yeah, maybe for the seven year old, she remembers more. The four year old Caden, he remembers more of the idea. But I had a book made, I asked all of our friends and family to write their favorite stories of Corey and send in pictures, because I was my way of holding on to him to you know, I was doing it for the kids, but I think I was really doing it for me. Yeah, I wanted to keep him alive, and let them have the memory of their dad. So I found this book. And anyway, it's just that was maybe my way of grieving and accepting it was, yeah, holding those memories to share with his kids so that they, you know, they could remember him. I know I think grieving comes in so many different forms. And depending on the on the event, I mean, goodness sakes, I probably should have asked my mom to come on, my mom has lost a son, a three, her three year old son to drowning and a husband to cancer and a second husband to cancer. My mom's had a lot of brothers. I've like there's some people that have a lot of death in their family and just in their, in their life. And grieving, looks different. You know, for me, even with my dad, I actually had a dream I it was funny because my parents were going through a rough patch. My dad was kind of in that an interesting phase of his life of do I want to keep running my business? Am I ready to sell it. And I remember my parents kind of going through a rough patch. We were all married all out of the house. And I had a dream that my dad had cancer and he was dying. And three days later, they gathered us and he had cancer. He didn't say he was dying, but he had cancer. And the stages for me were way different. I was also pregnant when he died. I was eight months pregnant with Alexa. And I it you know, you go through these phases of hope. And, and then like we my dad very quickly went into the ICU. I mean, he had, I think he only did his first round of chemo. And all of a sudden he had was on a ventilator and had all sorts of things come up. And every Sunday was Sunday's were horrible days, for whatever reason, and we thought he was gonna die. And what was interesting is some of the experiences that we got to go through as a family through that my dad didn't set up, my dad had worked his ass off with his business. My dad started a company called exact way that he, he really worked very hard for and he had nothing set up if he died, my mom would not have been taken care of. And he believes he had he told us later he had a memory. And my dad was not where I'm at now my dad would be rolling into the he's rolling in his grave because my dad was not into any of this. Whoo. No, in fact, when he was sharing this story, he goes, I remember being in a room. And he said, I remember hearing a heartbeat. And I can't I think it was going too fast. Cuz my dad would have a lot of they'd have to shock his heart because it was going too fast. And he goes, I remember hearing a heartbeat and it was going and I needed to it was like oh, that's not good. And he left And he goes, he's he felt very strongly that he had a choice that he could have gone then or he could have stayed. And he stayed, he had to relearn to walk. He was I mean, it was he had some pretty horrific things, and then made it through and did a bone marrow transplant and all sorts of things. And then it was there was nothing else I could do. And he came home today. And there's this, I am hesitant to share it because it's emotional. When he came home today. I was always a daddy's girl. And I sat next to next to him. And I just said, you know, that everything's gonna be okay. And he looked at me, he said, I know it is because I know who you are. And it was one of those moments that it was just like this, you know, I was pretty young, my dad died when he was 54. I think I was I don't, I'm not trying to do the math right now. Because Anyway, you know, just barely having my second baby, and here's my dad, who's gonna be gone. And I was really grateful at that time in my life that I was open enough to feel His Spirit because I would he would come and dreams after he passed on. He would. And it actually was really hard for my mom, because my mom, she would have dreams every once a while, but she wouldn't fill him and it really pissed her off. And so I would stop communicating when I'd fill my dad. And I had a very, and his viewing it was so touching all the people that couldn't pay their respects I was in I was in such a happy place because he was no longer in pain. And so my I mean, I didn't it wasn't tragic, it wasn't sudden, but it was definitely a different way of grieving. And I still have a relationship with my dad to this day, and that I'm really grateful for and I have a very strong knowing that my dad needed to pass when he did, my dad was the ultimate patriarch of my family. And if he didn't pass, I wouldn't be who I am today, my brothers, my sister, my mom, like it was, I really believe it was divine that that he needed to move on so that we could really be who were were meant to be. And that was just my own personal, you know, acceptance or whatever. You want to believe that to just like Cory, like, there's none his accident, nothing makes sense. Yeah, then it was his time to go. Yeah. However, I just had a dream. I mean, it's funny, you talk about grieving, because then this week, I have this very vivid dream. And I'll do this every once in a while. But I have a very vivid, vivid dream that my dad's alive again, and then he dies. But in this dream in particular, I was grieving I could feel it. So to the depths of my soul, and I was walking I remember walking in this, I don't even know where it was. And all this just deep that you know, that sorrow that grief that just pours out of you. Yeah, was coming. It was two waves. It's and was so vivid in my dream. And I felt it in my dream. So it was interesting. And then right, not too long after that you're like, I think we should talk about grieving. You know, but I, you know, I have a friend who her husband took his life. And she's been very vocal about the things that she's gone through. And just recently was talking about, hey, hey, can you stop saying just, you know, choose to be happy? Because that's not always a choice. And she was going through this. It's interesting watching everyone in their grief process of how they, we all process differently. But I think it's important to process. Well, I think the grieving process is the healing process. Yeah. If you're, if you're not leaning into those emotions, those hard dark motions, right? Yeah, the anger, whatever you're feeling like fill them, fill them, instead of Oh, I can't fill that way. And you're stuffing and stuffing and stuffing them down. Yeah, that is not healthy. That's not that's not healthy. And, you know, everyone has to do it at their own pace. Some people, like, live in that grief space for a lifetime. And some people never touch it. They just go to acceptance. And we're not talking about the rest because this is the life cycle. And there's no sense. So I'm going to put all that in a closet and I don't want to open that door. But then it gets cracked open, and then everything dumps out. And then it's not. I mean, there's there's so many different layers here. There really is. And I love that you shared that about you know, experiencing your dad, because you know, since then our I experienced my grandma Mary. I mean, her death was not I mean, she had dementia and Alzheimer's. So we lost her twice. Right? We lost her first time we lost her. And then when she passed away, and I mean, it doesn't make it easier, but it certainly wasn't as dramatic of a death in my experience as losing somebody like we did with Cory. Okay, yeah, way different. My grandma was ready to go. She missed my grandfather dearly. I mean, she was only 61 when he died. So as much as she loved her family, she wanted to be with her. Yeah, her purse her person, you know. And so there was it was, it was the grieving stage was similar, I would say on a scale though, you know, on a lower scale than Oh yeah, more Do you have time to prepare for it? So you're grieving over time with the person? Does it make it easier? But it is a different? Yeah, you know, for sure. I wouldn't both Cory and my grandma married like, they're a part of my everyday life, like even Kelly as he stepped into Reiki. And if if you know, Kelly like you don't you know, you've never even met Cory, and you can feel his brother's energy with him at all times. Like, it's just part of who he is like that. You have like your own little personal guardian angel with you all the time. So you kind of accept that as a gift. And you hold on to that. There is a choice, right? You could say I don't want to it's too hard. Where you're, you're you say, I love that you're with me? Even though you're not here physically? Well, on that set. I love that. I don't want to feel that because that's too hard. That's why in my belief, that's why my mom doesn't feel my dad. It's too hard for her. Yeah, it would be too hard. It's too painful. It doesn't feel fair. You know, there's some things there. And it isn't I mean, he died at 54. And then she gets married a second time, and he dies of cancer too. And it's, again, to each To each their own and how you're going to choose to, to process and go through the grieving stages. Well, and sometimes you might be having a great day, like there'll be days that Kelly was like, you know, I think I'm moving on. Yeah. And moving on, you know, I use that term loosely. But moving forward, moving forward. Like he would see a red dodge truck, or the smell of sawdust, or, like, the first f the first hunting season, you know, just there's those things that just hit you like, it just happened yesterday, now. And those are times that you know, they come in waves. And you don't, you don't even you think you're having a great day and bam, you see a red truck. I mean, just like your mom, right? There's little things that probably paying her, huh, well, there's things to this day pings me weird things, like I'll see a man's feet and it reminds me of my dad's feet. I'm like, how do I remember what my dad's feet look like, you know, or the song on the radio or whatever it is. It's like I'm missing my dad today. And I get to feel that and I think that that's one of those things that even though it's been 12 or 1516 years now, I still get to feel that and let it move through. I don't want to stay there and and let it move through. It doesn't parallel and no longer paralyzes. And I think that, you know, my dad's death never paralyzed me. I mean, I had, and I think again, because at different stages of, we had time with him to grieve, my dad was in a coma for quite a while. So he was still alive. And we, so we were going through the process of grieving while he was still alive, which I do think is softer, in a lot of ways of being able to still be with that person in serving, I got to serve my dad in ways that I never got to when he wasn't sick, which he hated. But my dad was a good old boy from Wyoming, you know, being having his feet robbed or having whatever, you know, having to relearn to walk like, Oh, my dad had a lot of integrity that he carried within himself that he did not that was really challenging for him. But like with my grandma, Mary, it made it I have no reason. What's the word resentment? I have no regrets. Yeah, right. Because Oh, yeah, able to, like, say everyday, everything I wanted to say to her, even though she wasn't responsive, like I was able to share that with her. Yeah. And let her know that. You know, what, what she had given me in this life, you know, the gifts. And now I and now I believe that even though like with Cory, I wasn't able to share that with him. I'm able to share it with him every single day now. Yeah. And he hears me. Yeah, and he knows 100%. He's with me. And so having not having those experiences in such a dark way, really kind of shed so much light on it, too, because I can see that. You know, what? I have my own little guardian angel with me all the time. And the kids too. And he, he spends a lot of time in hallways. Or maybe that's not my house. It's like his kids house. Yeah. And it might just be where I see him more. But it is interesting that all of my kids as they've gotten married and have their own places, you know, he's there. And even like my trust, and he wasn't born. I had him two years after. And I had pictures of Korea in my hallway, which is probably why he hangs out there. Right or I that's where his energy is for me anyway. And Tristan, when he got older, he pointed to the picture. And it was like he was like he knew him. Yeah, and I'm sure he didn't know him. I believe that, you know, they spent time together. Yeah, for sure. Before he came down and there was just this like a knowing that he had like I know him. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, it's interesting because so we know too But not everyone's experienced the death of a loved one. And one of the things that we did want to touch on was grieving in other ways. Yeah. And I think that that's something that we don't really talk about too much. I know for me, when I shut down my business, I didn't realize I didn't expect to grieve in the way that I needed to grieve with closing down this business that was surprising and painful. It was very painful for me to I went through a grieving process. Yeah, I left my business and relationships that I've lost. Yeah, unexpectedly, or even by choice. Like there's a there's a death that happens there. Oh, yeah. There's like a sorrow, a sadness of not having that person in your life, whether they've passed on, or they're still here. But now they're just not part of your Yeah, they're not part of your life anymore. Well, and I was, I had just shared this with you. But this there's a post that I saw that it's not too late to grieve this the person you used to be, because there's aspects of that that I've gone through, I don't know if you've experienced that, which again, is kind of surprising. But it's like that you it is a death of a version of you, that's no longer no longer there. And a grieving of the parent, you never had the friendship that ended the relationship, you couldn't fix the boundaries you had that were ignored. Not having anyone to believe in you as a child, the shame you felt as a kid for having feelings, wishing someone knew how you felt growing up, not having adults to teach you how to cope with life as a child, the childhood you missed, because you had to grow up too fast. And I would also offer because I've had recent conversations with my other podcast around this. And a lot of people have experienced sexual abuse, especially as a child, there's a lot of innocence that gets taken away, when that happens. And there's a grieving that gets to be experienced and felt through that, that most of us don't have that opportunity to do or even to look at. So that's also another place where grieving gets to happen. I think there needs to be more conversation around that exact thing. When you are grieving an old like your old self. Yeah. I think that's beautiful. I think that there needs to be more compassion and empathy for that. Yeah. Yeah. And even when you're going through those traumas of sexual abuse, it mean there's a death that happens because the old view is letting go of those. And maybe, you know, healing and moving on. Yeah, and if this is pinging for anyone, what's coming up for me that I'd love to share is, sometimes we don't know how to grieve. We are feeling the sadness, we're feeling sorrow, we're understanding that it's something to do with an old version of me that I'm feeling feeling like is dying. You can do a simple and I like to call the letters we write but never send. Because that you can write to people that have hurt you. And you can write it to yourself, that version of you that you're now putting to rest. I wrote a letter to my uterus. The sounds so cheesy, and never in a million years did I think I would do this when I had my hysterectomy. I wrote a letter to my uterus. And I was surprised at what came out because it was like you gave me children. You don't even like all these really beautiful things. When all that happened after Courtney's a suicide attempt, I was really struggling on coulda, shoulda woulda, and I wrote a letter to Jessica. Yeah, of that time. Yeah. And I wrote a letter to me at that time. And just, I saw me as that person in that moment of time. Yeah. And I wrote a letter and I burn it, burn, I released that. And it was such a profound experience. So I've never thought about doing that for a store. And yeah, it's really anything your morning, anything you're grieving. Anything that has, it's really a fire ceremony is a really beautiful tool to use for death, for for releasing things that are no longer serving, it can even be releasing an old version of your marriage. You know, for those of you who have reached out that are talking about wanting to co create a relationship, I would recommend writing down those parts of of your relationship, even writing that letter to yourself and your partner. And the version that you're no longer wanting to hold on to those parts of you that in the relationship that are asking to die writing a letter thanking it and putting it to bed. I you know, know whatever it is that needs to be said, and then burn it burning again fire and that alchemical energy that fire brings is a really, really, really beautiful, powerful, palpable experience that you can fill in the body. Yeah, it's a transmutation of the energy. I was taught a long time ago that if you're not liking an energy that you're feeling like you can't kill it, you can't like distinguish it. You can only transfer it transmute it into something else. So it does come from choice of I am filling this and I don't want to fill this anymore and it's taking me over and I want it to just die. Yeah. That is resisting. And then it's just going to persist more what you resist persists. Instead of doing that, I would encourage people to transmute it, transfer it to a different emotion to a different energy. When that you do want. Yeah, well, and it's kind of like with our last episode with Michelle and Amanda, Amanda talks so beautifully about this with emotions, and how there are those receptors cells in our physical body, but we are not our emotions. And oftentimes, we get identified with these emotional pieces of us and things that we do either suppress, because we're afraid of looking at them, or we bring up because we and we let it run the roost. Is that coming up again, I thought I already dealt with, you know, when we saw grief counselor, shortly before we saw Dolores, I was like, because I was trying everything. And yeah, I went to a grief counselor. And and that was a great, beautiful experience. That's where we learned the five stages of grief because I didn't know that was a thing. Yeah, I had never experienced it. So I didn't know. Well, three years ago in 2018. Kelly was, I mean, this was after Courtney's suicide attempt and some other betrayal trauma that we had had with a business partner. And things were kind of calm. And it was almost like, Okay, look around, I can breathe right now. There's nothing really traumatic happening. Kelly went into, you know, what I would call a dark night of the soul. And he kind of lost himself. And I, like he was grieving. And it was, it was the same energy. It was the same Kelly that I had experienced 2017 years prior. So I reached, I actually reached out to a grief counselor, and I said, I feel like it's happening again. Otherwise, it gets another layer, like we're right back. And he said to me, it can happen anytime, five years, 15 years, 50 years later, and it can hit just as hard today as it did then. And it reminded me of I had mentioned that I'd call Kelly's cousin, because I didn't know where to turn. And the advice that she gave me was similar to this grief counselors. And this had this this one piece of advice has changed my whole grieving experience. And they both said that grieving is like waves in the ocean. They come in, and then they go out and they come in and they go out. And sometimes those waves go out farther and farther. And sometimes they just crashed just as hard today, as they will in 15 years or 20 years. They just go out to sea and they come but they come back in. And you really just have to learn how to surf. Yeah. Because and Surfing is not easy. And anyone who's ever tried surfing, that's not easy to do. But that advice. And when he was going through this three years ago, and I really felt like I really I was I was losing him again. Like he just because it was like the calm, right. We had been through all this heartache, and all this weeping and heart, you know, just pain of worried about what was gonna happen with Courtney and this other betrayal trauma that we'd experienced with our business. And then it was like this calm and when the calm hit. He went low, because it gave him space to be able to give him space. Yeah. And it took him hard. And the grief counselor said to me that he kind of just described that to me. He said, Well, I've seen this happen before. So it was interesting. And so I just wanted to share that too, as kind of a takeaway. And the other would be that no one grieves the same. I think you already kind of shared that, like, No two stories are the same. There's no, there's no, it's not a perfect science. And these are five stages, and there's probably 50. Yeah, there's 50 layers, right of the stages, when again, because it does get held in the cellular health gets held in the tissues, when we when we experienced trauma. And when we experienced death, or we experienced death, death death in any level, it actually gets held in the cellular layers of our body. So it would be natural. And it would make sense that when we're ready to actually have some those cells die, that another layer would come up to be looked at, to be felt to be released. And even again, just to touch on emotion, all emotion really needs usually it's just to be felt. And it doesn't need to consume an overtake. It's just a, hey, we're needing attention for a minute, fill into this and then let it move through. And pushing it down. Yeah, and it can be and it is as simple as that. I think, for me because I was because I had that diagnosis of bipolar at such a young age. I always feared my emotions. My emotions were always wrong. And so it took me a long time to really get comfortable with no, my emotions are not wrong. And I do get to fill them but it doesn't mean that I'm crazy that I'm bipolar or all these other things. It just means I get to feel this and I ever you haven't healed it right? Yeah, well, it's coming up again. It doesn't mean that something's wrong. Right that you didn't heal it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's again, there's a lot of different our all of our little limiting beliefs, thoughts that come up of why am I looking at this again? Why is Coming up again. And, and really again, it's really for me, in my experience, it's just another call for us to practice self love. Because we could be sitting with someone across the table, and you have an issue that's coming up again, and I can look at you and hold you in love. And of course you have that coming up. And of course, you have this grief that's asking you to be looked at. It's a different layer. Can you know? And can we do that with ourselves and just holding ourselves in that place of love of just because this is coming up again? What's the difference? What's the other aspect is asking to be felt that I didn't feel before? Well, and if you really lean into that weeping that deep sorrow, right that pain, like what a cathartic release, I would gift like, because if what we believe, you know, Amanda, Michelle shared last time, like you're holding on to that it's in your body now. Yeah, let it go. Yeah, like, feel it, honor it. And then that cathartic release out of your physical body? is such a beautiful healing process because grief, grief in and of itself is the healing process. Yeah. Yeah, there was, um, I've been reading the anatomy of spirits. By What is her name, I can post in the show notes. The same kind of cells that manufacture and receive emotional chemistry in the brain are present throughout the body. There's like, neuro peptides or chemicals triggered by emotions, or thoughts convert Converse into matter. And our biography becomes biology like it is, it's fascinating, how really, when we she, what this book is talking about is just the health issues that can arise when we don't look at these emotions, or when we're giving our power away, or there's a lot of different aspects. But again, because everything is so interconnected, when we do suppress when we don't allow ourselves to feel something, we are holding it in the cells and in the tissues, and it will, it literally breaks, it breaks down the cells, it will create disease in the body. A lot of people that are grieving that won't move through grief will end up getting sick. Well, emotion never lies. I mean, look at Kelly, he was in Utah, his brother was in Wyoming. And the moment that he was killed, Kelly felt that Yeah, the energy, the energy, right, that whole he knew that something had happened. He felt it. Yeah. So that gets if you if you if it gets trapped in there. Yeah. If you don't have awareness, yeah. didn't recognize it until let it go. Well, is there any, like, takeaways that you want to leave? I think my biggest takeaway would, would be giving yourself space to fill what needs to be felt and to do what needs to be done. Meaning, I'm feeling this. I'm a writer, I love writing. I know you're similar to me. And sometimes I have a few letters with God that Michelle actually is one of the reasons why I started doing this. It's been very, very cathartic, very helpful. The letters that we talked about doing it to ourselves, I mean, writing and burning is a very, very powerful tool. The thing is that these tools are so freaking simple. And how many times do we not allow ourselves five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes to sit down with ourselves in our emotions, writing feeling at whatever needs to be done? Just to give ourselves that time, why do we not do that? I don't know when it can be done in the privacy of our own even has to know it's between you and God or whoever and you and the person that you're grieving, right? Or the experience of the situation you're grieving. It is yours is yours to do, as you see fit. Yeah. So so be empowered and actually make the choice to lean into it. I love that. Mine would probably be similar in that just the grace and kindness, compassion for yourself. Yeah, to just fill all the fields. Yeah. move through that grieving process, that healing process, you know, feelings. Feelings aren't fact, their feedback. Yeah, is the thing that I've heard. I think that's a Stephen Covey quote, but it's very, like profound. Oh, I agree. You know, you're feeling something. And it's something's being asked to be looked at whether it just happened or it's 1520 years later. Yeah. One other thing I will put out there that when you are getting consumed by emotions that actually are starting to have a somatic response. So there's a fear response or something coming up in the body, go into the thoughts and the Ask with whatever the fear is, or whatever the belief is, is it true? Yeah. That I love that. Byron, Katie kind of teaches that too. Yeah. Is it true? Is it true? And who would you be without the thought? Who would you be without the thought? But sometimes the emotions you have to deal it's interesting how tandem they are. It's like the chicken in the egg which one comes first? I don't, nobody can really answer that question. And that would be my other tip. takeaway is there's no two grieving stories. No two death stories are the same. Yeah. Although stories are what connects us. And there are similarities that we like I resonate with that. They're not the same. comparison is the thief of joy. Yeah, there is no timeline on the grieving process, and it could come up and pop up and ping you. The same time every single year for who knows how long? Yeah. And then one year, you're like, hey, that anniversary just passed, and I didn't even think about it. Yeah. And then the, the, you know, that saying, we're all here just to walk each other home keeps coming to mind. And especially from where you started the podcast and what you're sharing in the beginning. Really, that's what we're, that's what we're here to do. We're just here to help each other. share our stories. So again, if you want to find you know, dive more in with Jessica, you can find her on her website. Yeah, DeVonish. duo.com. And my website, Amanda, Joy loveland.com. And then make sure to jump into our Facebook group. We're trying to get better about posting there and be more interactive. It is a I think it's a public group. So anybody can find it. Yeah. And I know a lot of people their stories are private, and they don't want their name to be shared. So that's why people have private messaged me. And then yeah, I've shared that conversation in the group. For the exact reason why we created the group. Yeah, you know that we are more alike than we are different. So feel free to reach out to one of us individually, if you want to put something out to the group, but you don't have your name attached to it. Yeah. But yeah, please join the conversation there because that has been a beautiful. It's been a beautiful place to kind of share. So and I will keep, I will share a little more too. I haven't, I got to do better, too. So until next time, until next time, sending you all so much love. And so it is thank you for joining the conversation today. We hope that something we said sparked your curiosity to further your growth. Only you know what is meant for you. So let's continue the conversation and follow us on our Facebook page at what is personal is universal. We'll see you there.