UP366 The Bundle - Understanding the sports media market

 Richard Gillis, Murray Barnett and Yannick Ramcke deep dive into the media rights and streaming marketplace for sports.

This episode is sponsored by We Are Sweet, the leading provider of digital platforms for the sports industry.

Are you tired of the same old headaches when it comes to building digital platforms?

We Are Sweet excels in crafting best-in-class software, ranging from unique engagement experiences to next-generation websites. With more than a decade of innovating alongside names like IMG, ATP, Professional Triathletes Organisation and Formula 1,  you can trust that their software delivers.

Whether you're looking to kickstart your community and transform the way you communicate with professional players, bring data to life in a second-screen experience, or need a website that monetises fans, We Are Sweet is the digital partner you need.

Visit www.wearesweet.co.uk to turn your digital aspirations into tangible success stories.

Timeline
01:30 Exploring ESPN Bet and the Convergence of Sport, Media and Betting
02:01 The Challenges of Breaking into the Betting Market
03:41 The Role of ESPN in the Betting Market
11:27 The Future of Betting and Media Convergence
19:56 NFL's Potential Stake in ESPN
23:34 The Implications of NFL's Move for ESPN and the Betting Market
27:46 The Future of Direct-to-Consumer Ambitions for Rights Owners
31:37 Understanding the Bundle and Direct to Consumer Strategy
32:22 The Role of Media in Direct to Consumer Strategy
32:59 The NFL's B2B Ambitions and Direct to Consumer Relationships
33:10 The Unique Circumstances of Each League and Country
33:53 The NFL's Exclusive Deal with Peacock
34:39 The Impact of Exclusive Streaming on Peacock's Success
38:11 The Future of NFL Games on Different Streaming Platforms
45:20 The Potential of DAZN for Ligue 1's Domestic TV Rights
50:44 The Role of Triller TV in the UK and Ireland's AFC Cup Rights

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Transcript

The Bundle - Understanding the Sports Media Market

AI podcast transcript

[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. This week it's The Bundle, our regular deep dive into the media rights and streaming marketplace for sport with regular co-hosts Murray Barnett and Yannick Ramcke. 

[00:00:16] This episode is sponsored by We Are Sweet, the leading provider of digital platforms for the sports industry.

Are you tired of the same old headaches when it comes to building digital platforms?

We Are Sweet excels in crafting best-in-class software, ranging from unique engagement experiences to next-generation websites. With more than a decade of innovating alongside names like IMG, ATP, Professional Triathletes Organisation and Formula 1,  you can trust that their software delivers.

Whether you're looking to kickstart your community and transform the way you communicate with professional players, bring data to life in a second-screen experience, or need a website that monetises fans, We Are Sweet is the digital partner you need.

Visit www.wearesweet.co.uk to turn your digital aspirations into tangible success stories.[00:01:05]

UP: Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport, a mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations. With the who's who of the global industry? To join our community of tens of thousands of people. Sign up to the weekly Unofficial Partner newsletter and follow us on Twitter and Tik TOK. At Unofficial Partner. 

[00:01:30] ESPN bet is where we'll start.

[00:01:33] So as you know, we've done quite a lot on the idea of convergence of sport, media and betting. And did the event with LiveScore at Olympic Park. And as a result, or sort of homework for that, we've done a couple of podcasts with Sam Sadi at LiveScore and he sort of educated me in this area.

[00:01:53] And I'm really interested in this area because it's, it's a So Murray, why don't you kick us off? What's happened? Let's talk about ESPN bet.

[00:02:01] Murray Barnett: So the background to this is that previously Penn Entertainment had an agreement with Barstool and kind of ESPN around a branded betting service that for a lot of different reasons ended up not working. And so mid last year. They signed a 10 year, 2 billion deal to license the ESPN brand, effectively a partnership with ESPN around betting and, you know, what makes this particularly interesting is that for a long time as a subsidiary of Disney, ESPN had sort of shied away from the betting market, but then since the legalization of sports betting in the States in 2018, it's become inevitable that everybody's going to get heavily involved in the, in the betting space.

[00:02:49] And. Penn, unlike Barsol, is betting that the kind of wide reach that ESPN has and brand recognition and co-marketing opportunities is going to help them break the, the largely the duopoly of found dual and, and DraftKings, who, between them have nearly 80% of the US betting markets in terms of market share.

[00:03:14] I think there's

[00:03:15] UP: and that I think is a really key bit. Again, the bit that I didn't really appreciate was just the strength of the incumbents in that marketplace. So you've got those two brands who have done a lot of the heavy lifting in terms of. They've got people's wallets. They were obviously two, fantasy, games and then betting opened up and they essentially have just moved across to becoming betting brands.

[00:03:39] And. That's such a huge advantage. And what I thought, so my superficial reading of this was that, okay, ESPN, biggest sports media brand in the world, will move into betting and then suddenly rapidly gain market share. And that will be a sort of, you know, it's part of the gold rush question. And actually, the reality is very different.

[00:03:59] And there's quite an interesting question about It's future in terms of the way in. And at what point do they judge whether or not this has been a success or not? Because there is a sort of contractual out at some point that they can then start to say, right, okay, now we've tried it and we, we're not going to go the 10 years that we initially wanted to.

[00:04:19] So there's quite a lot at play and you've got the cliche people like me say, or it's, you know, American gold rush in the betting market. And actually, It's more like a honey trap, you know, a lot of brands are going in spending a massive amount to generate just the marketing spend to build a brand in the U.

[00:04:39] S. marketplace. And then do all of the work to get the, customers to sign up and also have a brilliant product that they'll stay or better product than, FanDuel. It's going to be really very hard. Yannick, what do you think?

[00:04:55] Yannick Ramcke: I think, from Penn's perspective, this level of aggressiveness is, I think, what you have to demonstrate if you indeed have ambitions to catch up on the two market leaders. And I think they cut their losses with Barstowards because they didn't really overcome this 2 percent market share threshold across the board.

[00:05:16] So they needed either go bigger. And I think committing 10 years to billion U. S. dollars is what was needed to have a serious shot. At the same time, and there I might differ a little bit with Murray is on. It's in terms of looking at it from ESPN's perspective that this is not as big endorsement by the worldwide leader in sports of sports betting.

[00:05:43] I rather consider this a lukewarm endorsement because ultimately it's a quick money grab, right? It's like a licensing agreement. It's not like that they establish and build up their own direct to consumer betting protocol. For them, it's high margin licensing revenue that goes straight from the top to the bottom line.

[00:06:04] So, it is T& L optimization. So, I'm a bit hesitant to say, look, ESPN is now all embedding. And I think over the first couple of months, we have seen that there might be not a perfect alignment of interest because, yes, ESPN has has equity plus some options. To double down or to go out, but I think what I'm missing is like more skin in the game here in terms of revenue share or whatever, because the marketing and promotion, what I have seen or read about.

[00:06:39] It's limited on ESPN airway. And I don't see their short term incentivization, right? They should double down there,

[00:06:48] UP: So there's a few things there. So you're saying the risk is on PEN rather than ESPN. Although ESPN is taking a brand risk, presumably, Murray. That's, that's part of their equation has always been. They don't, it's the reputation that they're worried about that, you know, it's Disney and betting don't go together.

[00:07:02] Yannick Ramcke: But this is a thing of the past, right? I think they have waited long enough and set set it out long enough that this is not a risk anymore because they are quite conscious about it. No, it's I think that was not part of the. And

[00:07:16] Murray Barnett: a couple of elements to it. Firstly, you know, with the size of the US betting market predicted to be 40 billion by 2030, it's it's a revenue stream, which ESPN, whether it's licensing or whether in the future it gets more actively involved. Can afford to ignore because they're suffering their own issues in terms of the high cost of marketing of ESPN Plus and sort of the declining pay TV revenues.

[00:07:46] So they've got to. Take into, you know, anybody that's offering them that kind of money, they've got to they've got to look at it. And I think it's a low risk strategy, relatively low risk strategy for ESPN to be able to sort of see how it works. And if it, what ESPN has learned from some of its other brand diversifications, whether that was ESPN the phone way back when, or whether it was the ESPN restaurants is that.

[00:08:13] Where they've tried to do it themselves in the past, they realize it sits outside of their core skill set, so I think this is a great example of them being able to take out you know, to get a toehold in the market and a better understanding of it and then sort of wait and see a little bit how that evolves and develops.

[00:08:32] Yannick Ramcke: I fully agree. I'm not saying that it was the wrong approach to it. I actually liked the approach that they go the licensing approach for me. You caught it low risk for me. It's not only low risk, but also high floor might be low ceiling. Fair enough. But high floor initiative. And yes, it might only be, I mean, we had the pleasure to have a first glance into the ESPN financials recently, it might only be like 1 percent of the annual turnover.

[00:09:04] But it's like 10 percent or double digit percentages of the net income. So, assuming like a very high margin to all of this, which licensing revenues normally have. So, it might also not be revenue diversification as a percentage point to the top line. And here I also think the dilution of the industry that there are so many more D2C verticals that we can now attach on top of our content business.

[00:09:38] Like, bottom line, many, many broadcasters have reverted back to advertising and subscriptions. Yes, having the e commerce vertical, having the betting vertical, having the what else, fantasy NFT vertical. All of that, we have discussed this multiple times here in the podcast on a piece of paper and conceptually make all the sense in the world, but I think then bottom line and then faced reality.

[00:10:06] We have, I think it was actually last episode discussed. Okay. We brought him back to the basics, do a revenue stream, advertising, subscription. And here again, it's a nice, nice quick win licensing opportunity. But is it this huge business? And here, final point, while I'm a fan of this slow approach, the fundamental question is, is betting a good business?

[00:10:30] And here, you touch on the unit economics with custom acquisition, retention, and then engagement and monetization. That's a bigger, bigger one.

[00:10:40] UP: There's a, there's a couple of things. One is there was a graph that was circulated over the last week or so, which suggested that Penn's share of sports betting revenue went up quite, you know, across, I think, I don't know how many states there were, but it went up quite drastically from about 2 percent to 12%, which, was aimed at telling a story that there has been penetration into the marketplace.

[00:10:59] And one of the stories that I keep coming back to is the example of Caesars in New York, where they essentially, they go in, offer absurdly low, you know, attractive initial odds or deals for the customer. But once those go away and you go back to reality, that market share disappears. So it's, there's a longevity question in terms of building customers over a longer period of time, rather than just quickly, you know, building revenue.

[00:11:27] The other question I just really want to get to on you for you two guys is the idea of convergence. So the big idea of convergence is that, betting firms are going to become almost, you can't tell the difference between them and broadcasters and they will be bidding for rights. And I, I. Get it.

[00:11:45] And you've seen bits of work in this way. I know that LiveScoring Ireland did it. You've had lots of bits of of this trend happening in small pockets. Murray, how realistic is it that that's going to happen? DAZN is also in this game of, DAZN Bet is another brand that's in the game.

[00:12:03] Where does that integration, what's the limits of it, do we think? Is it going to be complete convergence from a rights holders perspective? So when I talk to guys that, , I won't name them, but people who we all know that are in the market on the sales side, they love this story because it's just another story that they can then tell in terms of, bidding up the rights market.

[00:12:23] But just take me through that. What's your expectation in terms of that convergence? How real is it? What are the limits of it? Do you think,

[00:12:33] Murray Barnett: answer to that is what does convergence mean? I think from a customer perspective, when they're betting on ESPN bet and they're watching ESPN as a broadcaster, they don't make a distinction that that's not actually ESPN. that owns ESPN bet. it's a licensing agreement. And so for them, that is convergence, right?

[00:12:56] To them, ESPN is offering them a new service, which is ESPN bet, which sits close to the rights, which they've also got. And I think that that's probably why ESPN has a better chance of success than say a Caesars or somebody else is that the name recognition in the U S is. So much stronger and the ability to cross promote through their personalities and their programming and so on.

[00:13:20] Is an element of convergence if you like, but I think whether ESPN will ever actually own its own, betting service or whether it will just continue to license remains to be seen and I kind of feel that they'll end up. Continuing to look to license it to people because it, it does create a little bit of a industry church and state separation, but at the same time, the consumer doesn't know that there isn't that convergence because to them, it's all, it's all branded the same way.

[00:13:50] UP: because in the same way, I mean, I, I had assumed until I was told differently that Sky and Skybet were the same thing. So I know they started out as the same thing, but then that, that, that isn't the case. So I suppose the question you're asking is, does it matter at the retail end, at the, punters end?

[00:14:05] Murray Barnett: Yes, exactly. I mean, I take your point that any new entry that comes into a betting market is, is offering a heavily discounted products to be able to. Gain market share, and already there's some anecdotal evidence that ESPN is adjusting the way that it offers bonuses and discounts or incentives for new app signups, because they're not seeing the continued growth that they hoped.

[00:14:35] But I also think it's specifically in the case of ESPN. This is an interesting time of year because you probably need to give them another six months to really be able to make a real assessment of how successful Penn stroke ESPN has been because you will have got through NFL playoffs, Super Bowl, March Madness and and, you know, a couple of other big events or events, which are traditionally big in the betting markets.

[00:14:59] And I think it's only after that that we'll be able to see, but, but I suspect that, yeah. An ESPN branded betting service will sit comfortably in the third position in the U. S. for the foreseeable.

[00:15:12] UP: And just to bring this back home. So you've got the big European leagues. I'm thinking of the Premier League. It's relationship with betting politically in the UK. It's quite a toxic conversation. Very hard. You know, you've got the ban on shirt sponsorship, etc. But what's their relationship to betting generally?

[00:15:27] Yannick Ramcke: Okay, let's now double click on what Murray said regarding how expensive it was for SPN bet go from two to 12% market share. It was quite expensive. But more we touched on the B2C perspective on this conversion of media betting that has upstream implications on the B2B level, right?

[00:15:49] Like a primarily can it sustain having two right categories making money from two different right categories. The betting streaming rights and the media streaming rights, or will there, will there be a conflict at some point because downstream on the B2, B2C dimension, they are competing effectively for the same consumers.

[00:16:13] And you mentioned the, not that uncomplicated relationship of the English Premier League with betting. I mean, the English Premier League is among the big five in Europe among the big five football leagues. The only league. That has not cast out separate betting streaming rights, like the German, French, Italian, and Spanish League 

[00:16:35] UP: what's the difference between a betting and streaming right? And what the Premier League does? Because football data co is quite a, it's a big line item. I mean, I saw Kieran Maguire sort of dissecting the accounts the other day, talking about what the, the data co under the bonnet of the Premier League is, is significant.

[00:16:52] What do you mean by a betting and streaming right? What's the difference between what the Bundesliga does and the Premier League does?

[00:16:56] Yannick Ramcke: Now we are getting into the nitty gritty details of slicing and dicing, but

[00:17:00] UP: like, by the way, Yannick.

[00:17:02] Yannick Ramcke: with FootballCo,

[00:17:03] UP: Yannick, one of the, one of my favorite things is when you say nitty gritty and it's, it's just, you know, I just, apologies,

[00:17:09] but I just, I absolutely love it. Let's get into the nitty gritty.

[00:17:13] Yannick Ramcke: let's get into the nitty gritty what you are referring to in the context of FootballCo is about betting data rights, completely different rights category, nothing to do with any Video or audio visual content, betting data rights, big business for everyone, including for the English Premier League, betting streaming rights, effectively audio visual rights, dedicated and exclusively sold to sports books, are rather what you could understand as media rights in the traditional sense, Even though betting streaming rights are facing significant limitations in order to be uncompetitive to the media streaming rights, meaning low resolution, limited play out window size, or behind a lock in wall with the betting account that must be funded.

[00:18:07] So, the rights owners already try to thread the needle here, that those two things can co exist. Now, that in the B2C environment, betting and media converges, I think it will have upstream implication in the B2B marketplace when rights owners sell that to rights holders. Because as we always say, each betting company wants to be a media company.

[00:18:33] And each media company wants to be a betting company. So, and there has been initial pushback from certain broadcasters and certain markets who say, look, I pay the big bucks for the media streaming rights here. There won't be any betting streaming rights in the market where I pay a bunch of money for the media site.

[00:18:53] For example, I know it about ESPN in the US with the Spanish La Liga and the. German Bundesliga in the US, those two leagues have not sold betting streaming rights and ESPN is effectively warehousing the betting streaming rights because they don't want to have a competitive or similar product in the marketplace.

[00:19:13] Murray Barnett: one thing to remember is that currently only half of the U. S. population live in states where betting is legal and states like Florida and Texas have yet to legalize it, although I think it's inevitable that it will happen at some time. And so. It'll open up an even bigger market potentially for, for people operating betting services in the U.

[00:19:36] S. So I think it's definitely here to stay. I think it's only going to continue to grow. And it's a market which ESPN can use its brand to be able to. dip its toe in with a third party and probably end up making a much better deal once this current deal expires. But this is also a good segue into the next story that we're going to talk about because I, , we talk about convergence and there's another type of convergence which potentially is coming as well.

[00:20:07] UP: Well, let's do that. What, so the next story we've got is again, it's NFL in talks to buy a stake in ESPN. So this is a story that's been bubbling through before Christmas and afterwards. And there was a piece I'm reading from sport business, New York Times reports. Disney and the NFL have held advanced talks of the latter taking an equity stake in ESPN.

[00:20:25] As part of the possible agreement, ESPN would take control of NFL media, which includes NFL Network, Red Zone, NFL Plus and NFL Films. ESPN aims to move entirely direct to consumer with a target of 2025. Okay, so I think I understand what's going on. Why, what's the upside? Give, give me a sort of pros and cons of this.

[00:20:47] If I was looking at this as a, investor, what, give me a positives, negatives to, to this arrangement.

[00:20:52] Murray Barnett: If you're looking at it from ESPN's perspective, it's a cash injection. It's also protecting a relationship with it's by far and away most key rights holder. Remembering that ABC and ESPN are the large, have the largest single contract with NFL at sort of 2. 7 billion, I think it is per year for for NFL for the next nine years or so.

[00:21:19] And that. helps to sort of protect them once that agreement expires. I think it's also makes sense for NFL in the sense that they've got a media partner who is very familiar with its product. It's very familiar with its marketing has got a big brand that can take on what ultimately you could consider a non core business of theirs, which is NFL media.

[00:21:45] Yannick Ramcke: And I would look at it, not at all from ESPN's perspective, but completely and almost exclusively from the NFL perspective, because for me, this story is much more about the NFL than ESPN. the main takeaway is that it's one more sign of a trend that we have observed over and over again.

[00:22:06] Over the past one or two, maybe three years. It's the fact that rights owners, so leagues, effectively revert back to being pure B2B players. We always talked with all the techno technological advancement and distribution costs, production costs, like decrease how easy it is to go, quote unquote, direct to consumer. Now imagine the NFL. having an on media business, NFL Network, still being in more than 50 million households. In the United States, having marquee content like exclusive NFL playoff matches on its on its airwaves. Why should they at all divest this piece of business if direct to consumer is all everybody wants?

[00:22:58] Among the right owners going forward. And I think it's a decision. There's a reason why a Premier League, a Bundesliga, they, they stick to the licensing model, right? Not, not even like a variable compensation, okay, revenue share based on the number of subscriptions, something that the MLS has done with Apple.

[00:23:21] The top tier rights owners stick to the straight buyout of their rights against the fixed fee.

[00:23:28] UP: I just wanna ask a a, a stupid, so there's a couple of things. One is from the NFL's perspective, how does it work then? Are you in terms of. If SPN is a massive bidder of rights for my rights, Why am I buying them? Because am I not taking a customer out of the marketplace?

[00:23:42] Why would E-S-P-N-I-I, I'm just thinking aloud, why am is that not taking competition out of the me the media rights marketplace?

[00:23:51] Murray Barnett: Not at all. I think that. This will be a sort of a ring fenced investment. I think that they won't make any promises to ESPN about future rights agreements and you're exactly right. They'll be analyzing whether this makes sense to them or not based on whether It affects ESPN, ABC's ability to be a competitor for their linear rights going forward.

[00:24:18] But you've got to remember that ESPN has a relatively small number of games, and yet it produces an awful lot of NFL content. So in some ways there's some synergies there in terms of they're already producing a ton of NFL content and it There's some cost savings for NFL of having ESPN do it, but I, like I said, I think a ring threat, ring fence, what the investment is compared to any promises it makes to Disney about their involvement in a rights negotiation going forward.

[00:24:51] UP: So just on the, and just to build on Yannick point there about, I'm just trying to think. So NFL Media and NFL Network, red Zone, NFL plus and NFL films, are they. I mean, they're peripheral. They're not the real deal. They're the, they're the sort of shoulder stuff or the bits that are around the outside.

[00:25:08] They're not the core rights engine. But also, I'm just wondering, just my point being, is this at the NFL D2C ambitions onto ESPN? Because we saw this in golf a bit, didn't we? Saw the tours, European Tour and Discovery do something similar. I remember that all the chat a few years ago, which ultimately I think has failed.

[00:25:30] But it was about, well, we're not going to build an OTT media streaming D2C offer. We're going to let the experts do it and we're going to do a JV with the broadcaster. Just so I'm clear, is that what they're, is that what it's about for the NFL?

[00:25:48] Murray Barnett: Well, it's somewhat similar but I guess a little bit different to a WWE Network and Peacock and NHL and ESPN plus in the sense that, you know, as Yannick said, those are leagues or organizations which have stopped having a direct to consumer ambition for sure. And I think. ESPN Plus and ESPN's expertise in direct to consumer is something which is inevitable for them or, sorry, their direct to consumer proposition is inevitable in the longer term.

[00:26:23] So, NFL are saying, well, let's hitch ourselves to somebody that knows what they're doing.

[00:26:29] Yannick Ramcke: And I think a JV might be best case for an NFL, a complete divestiture might be another option because remember even not in the domestic market but international market with mandating the zone as the exclusive retailer of the international game pass. Right? It's the same trend that we are observing there. At minimum, a JV, you could also consider it a pure licensing deal. Okay, I sell the right, including the ready made product of the International Game Pass to the zone, and I pocket my guaranteed license. Revenues. So I think the NFA Network also over the past few years has become this latent, not really great of a product as you mentioned Richard, because it has been deprioritized

[00:27:22] in favor of the B2B licensing business over the past few years.

[00:27:28] In the past, NFA Network had an exclusive NFA playoff match this year, it doesn't have it anymore, or it didn't have it anymore, and we will touch on that in a second, where it was this year, it was death by a thousand steps, right, because it has been de prioritized. Therefore, it is this under the radar latent product, which is this today.

[00:27:51] UP: And just finally, just build me a bridge back to the previous conversation about ESPN bet. what's betting got to do with this? Is it separate or is it part of this conversation in terms of, oh, the bit of ESPN that you can see the NFL working with?

[00:28:08] Murray Barnett: Well, I think that's still to be determined, but the NFL itself has a billion dollars worth of betting deals with FanDuel, DraftKings and Caesars, so I'm sure that ESPN are looking at that and saying, Hey, well, we want to be part of that as well. There's also some evidence that the legalized gambling has sort of increased a bit of stickiness around around content with ratings going up.

[00:28:33] Whether it's actually. A direct correlation is, is difficult to determine, but it's certainly a factor, but to, one of Yannick's earlier points, I think it's also becoming really key for Disney as it looks to integrate Disney Hulu ESPN Plus into some kind of mini bundle, you know, the rebundling of the unbundling, and to be able to solidify that with By far and away the leading US television sport is definitely something that will help them reduce churn and potentially drive subscribers to a revised sort of entertainment and sports bundle.

[00:29:11] Yannick Ramcke: And as a final point to shift gears, I think, again, ESPN potentially acquiring or at least taking a stake in NFA network. is a result of the NFL seeking a partner for its media business. At the same time, ESPN is seeking a partner for its D2C business. So I think the NFL network or NFL media news or item is driven by NFL.

[00:29:41] So I would look at it from the NFL's perspective. ESPN might only act opportunistically here, while those reports that we covered in previous episodes, okay, Apple here, Comcast there, being interested in being the partner of ESPN in order to manage the linear to streaming transformation. I would look at this from ESPN's perspective.

[00:30:05] So, a lot of different conversations ongoing. Today's topic with the NFL, I think it's really about rights owners and their declining ambitions to go D2C. Because it might not be as profitable as the B2B licensing model of the past, to which the team preferred to stick to for

[00:30:26] UP: Now, okay, now, and this is the final point on this, but this is, I think, significant because again, when we sort of start to extrapolate back or you try to, try to take lessons, and we're talking here about the NFL which is to the, you know, this is top of the shop. This is the top of the global marketplace.

[00:30:41] If I am a football club, or if I am a smaller league around the world, I have been over the last at least five years told, or I've built out a media Studio. I have redefined myself. I think of myself as a media entity. I'm producing my own and operated content. This is the NFL saying, nah, let's not do that anymore.

[00:31:09] This is too expensive. It never made us any money. It was a marketing play. It was flawed and it was We're going to go back to the, you know, the good old days of just flogging rights. Now that's the NFL. It can do that because there's, there's a massive market for its rights. But I'm, I'm just trying, I'm confused about what conclusions I'm going to take from this.

[00:31:30] If I am in the middle of the market, I'm not the NFL. Well,

[00:31:36] Murray Barnett: but you know, the point is that

[00:31:37] UP: it's called the bundle. So, you know, we have got time.

[00:31:39] Murray Barnett: yeah, but it's, it's, it's not mutually exclusive. I mean, I think we've talked about before that every rights holder has DTC strategy, a direct to consumer strategy. Now, there are multiple different reasons why you need to do that.

[00:31:56] And just because the NFL is focusing on its B2B ambitions, doesn't mean that it's not going to have any direct to consumer relationships because, ultimately, you know, they're still NFL fans at the end of the day. So, the more that they understand those and the more that they can monetize those, the better.

[00:32:16] But I think, you know, you're going to see It's not a zero sum game, you need to do both.

[00:32:22] UP: I get 

[00:32:22] that, but the media element is the big stick, isn't it? I mean, I, I mean, in front of my mind is a conversation we had with Gareth Bolch at Two Circles this week, went out yesterday. yes, I get it. D2C is, is still central and there are bits of the industry, travel, merchandise, sponsorship, all of which are relevant to that conversation.

[00:32:41] But media was. You know, the whole OTT thing was going to be the big stick that pushed through. That was the main pillar of D2C, was it not? I mean, I, we're now saying now that's, that's going to be a very marginal, if worth it at all. Is that what we're saying?

[00:32:59] Murray Barnett: Well, I think that's what you're, that's what you're trying to lead us down the path to say, I think.

[00:33:04] UP: Well, I think there's a, you know, that, this is what, no, it's not me, is it? It's the NFL saying that, aren't they? Okay,

[00:33:10] Murray Barnett: listen, I think the other thing is each league in each country has got a very unique set of circumstances. And if you're further down the food chain, sometimes the D2C strategy is the only one available to you. If you're further up the food chain. A D2C strategy can be a pure and simple leverage point in getting the best, let's call it B2B agreement.

[00:33:35] But I don't think that anybody can not have a direct to consumer commercial strategy that sits next to a B2B commercial strategy. It's just a question of how big or how small it's going to be, and everybody's going to need to have that tailored to their own environment.

[00:33:53] UP: let's Move to the next bit of this, because again, it's another NFL story, but , it's just useful just to focus on them because they're just so directional and Chiefs and Dolphins Playoff game exclusive to Peacock. First time for exclusivity on a streamer. So Peacock paid $110 million for the game sold on a standalone basis, which approximately at $1.8 million per minute of game action a one year deal, first of a new contract with NBC.

[00:34:22] Peacock revenues are up 68% to $830 million with streaming losses, narrowing 556 million ME revenues and subs up largely due to sport. WE Premier League, big 10 Basketball, PGA, tour, golf, et cetera. Now, I've been on, as you know, I'm fond of TikTok. I'm semi obsessed with it. There's been a whole load of stuff on TikTok a meme about the bloke who did this deal, winning, basically. So just pick us through this. Cause obviously the, the app has done very well out of this. It went to number one in the in the app store. Can you just. Give me an idea of, what's happened here and what, again, just the ups and downs of this and just unpick it, because again, at some point we will say, well, so what, what's in it for the rest of us?

[00:35:07] We know the NFL is, can do what it likes, but let's see if there's anything to learn for the rest of us. Yannick, what do we think?

[00:35:14] Yannick Ramcke: I think zooming out for a second, it just goes back to The audience that content reaches has always been a function of content times distribution and the times of the multiplayer as marketing and promotion, meaning top of the pyramid content, such as the NFL will always cut through and build overcome.

[00:35:38] Consumption barriers, whether it's a paywall, whether it's a digital only distribution mean, or it's a discovery challenge, I don't know where it takes place. If the content is big enough, it will find an audience. If the content is not that big, Then you rely heavily on the distribution mean and the distribution system.

[00:36:05] So an NFL being distributed via a less distributed platform like Peacock does make a difference. Top of the pyramid content, cutthroats, people will complain left and right, but ultimately I can tell you, and the numbers say it, they signed up to Peacock, even though they might have never heard about. I think it's just a sign of times and I would almost say history repeats itself here, given that we had to, or not we, because back then probably other people, had the same discussion 20, 30 years ago, when we moved from free over the air television to cable satellite pay TV.

[00:36:54] Same discussion. And it's always a step by step process. First, the content must move from one system to the other. And whoever does it pays a premium. Peacock now paid 110 million dollars for this one game. It's an obvious premium. But I need to move the content first. Next one is the audience that will move.

[00:37:18] And after all, with some lag, the advertisers, the budgets. Now, was this a smart investment by Peacock? It all depends on retention of the audience and of the advertisers. If no audiences stick to Peacock and don't cancel right away. If advertising budgets have permanently moved. From linear TV to digital streaming then has been a worthwhile investment and I have been impressed by the numbers, which I think were above expectations, but the main message is, look, such temple events are what is needed to accelerate migration of audiences of budgets.

[00:38:04] And you don't need ten of those. One is enough if it's big enough. And this is one more point. Remember, we talked about the NSI network. If I'm not completely mistaken, this one wildcard game was until last year or a couple of years ago. One NFL Network, now being deprioritized, doubling down on the B2B money.

[00:38:29] This is like an annual auction that the NFL is now running for this one wildcard game. Could end up on an Amazon Prime video next year with the same hypothesis. 

[00:38:40] UP: And it's also, you know, it's the same, similar conversation we had about the Amazon, Black Thursday or Black Friday day, and they're, they're creating IP, aren't they? It's very clever from the rights holder to, to sort of generate interest in particular games or days or moments through the season, which I, what I don't quite get is how they get away with it in terms of, have they, I thought they might have sold this within the big, you Deal.

[00:39:06] So if I'm again trying to learn lessons from this, is it keep back a bit and create bits of IP through the season that you can then monetize separately? Is that, is that what's happening?

[00:39:18] Murray Barnett: Well, it's 

[00:39:18] definitely was a test from the NFL, right? It's a, as Yannick said, it was something that was sat on NFL networks so they could do what they liked with it to a certain degree. And It's important for NFL as well because they want Amazon, Apple, Netflix, everybody else to be at the table for the next round of media negotiations.

[00:39:40] I thought it was, you know, very significant that they gave them possibly the best game of the, of the matchup of that matchups of that day. So they are vested in making sure that this was going to work for NBC. And so that was to me a sort of a key, a key factor to it was that they're obviously trying to make sure that, that streaming works and is successful and the numbers speak for themselves.

[00:40:10] You know, it was the most streamed event ever in US history.

[00:40:13] Yannick Ramcke: yes, and I think it's safe to say that all things equal and NFL would prefer to have such a marquee game on its own airways on NFL network. But they also came to the conclusion that the current environment and media marketplace, it's not the best use of such marquee inventory. So actually selling it on a year by year basis.

[00:40:41] I consider it a very smart move, because for a Peacock, like, most of the value has been realized, with having had this game, now, once, people have heard about Peacock, Peacock people have signed up to Peacock, hopefully, for the sake of Peacock, for NBCU, they now stick around, but I can imagine that next year, a different digital streamer sees more value, Then Peacock in acquiring this right, so I can really see this right, exchanging hands over the next, I think we are now in a 10 or 11 year agreement of with the media rights in NFL to make the round, right?

[00:41:24] Maybe next year it's prime video then you get this halo effect and and so on, increment the signups. Doing it one more year, the return will diminish, right? So maybe in the third year we are up to Apple TV plus or elsewhere. So from a media strategy point of view, I think it's a masterful move by the NFA, what they did with, okay, let's DeRio prioritize B2C and D two C all in B2B.

[00:41:50] But how they have leveraged this, at least in the first year, has been masterful. And I expect this to be broadcasted somewhere else. Next season.

[00:42:01] Murray Barnett: One of the things which I thought was really interesting about this and, you know, maybe I'm overstepping here is that NBC has also been rumored to be looking at the NBA package. And I wonder if this is also a little bit designed by them to show to NBA that when they put an offer in front of them that is network and streaming, that they can point to this as being a huge success.

[00:42:30] When NBA is worried about the number of games which they might want to put on the streamer.

[00:42:36] Yannick Ramcke: I can only second this. From my outside looking in perspective, looking from the European market onto the U. S. market. Peacock always seemed like this small little stepchild completely underestimated, but Peacock is the only streaming service that has reliably and constantly grown subs over the past six, eight quarters.

[00:43:02] It has constantly invested in the content offering, and now we are at 30 million domestic paying subscribers with a huge. Funding machine with Comcast in the background. So I would not underestimate Peacock at all, whether it's in the upcoming NBA rights auction, or any other content. So, I think Peacock, it's has come to stay.

[00:43:29] It was one more example. And even, even if they don't stream the same wildcard match next year, or next season, I think there is a sustainable impact that they have generated with last weekend's event.

[00:43:43] UP: The other bit of just, again, the obvious point about the NFL is scarcity, isn't it? They're just, when you compare it to other leagues, they've just got such a sort of small inventory relative to how much they make. People want to pay for it, but I guess picking out individual games, it just does, you can build a halo around those individual games in a way that it's quite, it's more difficult when you've got, , you're on nine month seasons.

[00:44:08] I mean, I don't know how many baseball NBA games, but there's, I don't know, I lose track, but, 

[00:44:12] Yannick Ramcke: And I guess if we would have technical issues, if the numbers would not have been the numbers that they were in the digital streaming era, you can, can come up with whatever number to spin your narrative. I mean, I had to laugh when I read the press release of NBC. There were like five different numbers for the same thing.

[00:44:33] I mean, it wasn't the same thing. There were like slight differences, right? But, okay, look, we had peak concurrent devices. We had average minute audience. We had peak average minute audience. We had totally unique viewers. I mean, in the digital world, there's a metric for everything. And whatever narrative you want to bring across, there is a number for you.

[00:44:55] So I just found this funny when reading through the press release. I mean, I thought I was well versed with those metrics, but took me at least twice to read through this, , 

[00:45:07] UP: you're one of very few people who will read an NBC press release twice through just to make sure that you get it right. Last, last couple of stories. It's a very sort of whizz through these, but We're coming back to Europe, so we're done with the States.

[00:45:20] DAZN, in pole position for Ligue 1's domestic TV rights, sports streaming platform DAZN, is reportedly the favourite to land Ligue 1's domestic rights 24 29 cycle. But our original target from LFP board, which is the rights holder, was A billion euros, rights tender issued end of quarter 2023, so they've been on the market for a while, but scrapped because no satisfactory bids were received.

[00:45:48] Murray, just again, I'm looking at this and thinking the League Un, There's a lot of not great news around it. You know, Messi's left, you've got Mbappe possibly going, just wondering about the product itself, regardless of what people would refer to as the sort of management of their rights over a period of time, which has been confusing and has confused the market or has pissed off the market or whatever it is.

[00:46:16] But take it, where are we in this? And why is this a valuable sort of asset for DAZN.

[00:46:24] Murray Barnett: Well, I think the first thing is, if you remember, if you look at the Premier League auction, although the overall number was up slightly, if they had to throw a lot more inventory to keep the number up. And so I think it is pointing to the topping out of the, the rights possibility or the rights values for the, top leagues.

[00:46:43] To that end, that's why they didn't receive the 1 billion euro offers that they'd hoped for in, in their original tender. I think the other thing that's worth mentioning is that There's a regulatory process that existed around the rights tender, so by entering into private negotiations, they're less affected by regulatory issues because they were able to sort of effectively say, look, they ran the process that the regulator had asked for, and then that hadn't been successful, so they'd had to look at an alternative.

[00:47:20] I should also caveat anything I say by saying as somebody that does some consultancy work for DAZN, I'm not, I'm not going to give any sort of insider knowledge to this, nor do I have any insider knowledge to it, but I think it is quite interesting about how the main five leagues rights are starting to top out.

[00:47:40] UP: if we had to put a caveat of, of, you know, Murray Barnett consults to this organization, we'd be, we'd be here all afternoon, wouldn't we? So we'll brush that aside, I think. Yannick.

[00:47:52] Yannick Ramcke: Yeah, indeed. I don't know if Maury is the one who's responsible for it or not, but what you can say outside looking in is that the zone took a bunch of learnings from media posts ambitions in the French market. And one of the biggest and I Also, easiest takeaway is that Kennel Plus dominates this entire market.

[00:48:16] Kennel Plus is the gatekeeper to everything, including the end consumer, which is ultimately where you want to get to. So, it seems like the zone has spent a bunch of time. And effort to build up relationships before engaging in any aggressive bidding auctions or whatever. First thing they did was closing a distribution agreement with Kennel Plus.

[00:48:42] Because either you are on good terms with Kennel Plus or it will be super difficult to be successful in the French market. Or you are Amazon, then different rules and laws apply probably, but the French market has one, not problem, but one specific characteristic, which I think differs compared to the other big European media markets, which is the OTT market, a trend, which the zone was able to successfully take in, in Italy, in, in Germany, the OCT market is completely underdeveloped.

[00:49:24] It's an IPTV first market, meaning they still have all the set top boxes in the living room, even though it's not cable or satellite anymore, it's IPTV. But it ensures the gatekeeper position of a Kennel Plus. So, just comparing the market entries of Mediapro with Telefoot, I think, was their consumer facing brand that they launched or resurrected in the French market.

[00:49:55] Compared to how Mediapro approached the market and what DAZN is now doing. They took their learnings and now with having built up different relationships in the B2B marketplace, they can be a solution for the French League, but it also shows, and I think we touched on that in one of the previous episodes.

[00:50:16] is that the price paid, the market price, can be decoupled from the intrinsic value. The market price primarily is a function of competition. And this, I think, has been the biggest challenge for Oligo in its domestic market, that there was no serious competition due to the market dominating position and gatekeeper position of a Kennel Plus.

[00:50:43] UP: Okay. Right. Final story, just to get in, squeeze in before the before the hour mark and we'll finish. Triller TV picks up AFC Cup rights in UK and Ireland, advanced television 12th of January. That's the where the story came from. Triller TV. I don't know what that is. Someone's gonna have to explain what Triller TV is to me.

[00:51:03] Murray Barnett: So Triller used to be Fight, F I T E, and primarily wrestling and boxing and other sort of fight sports. Triller has had some success in the U. S. and I thought this was just kind of an interesting story about them diversifying in some, with some football properties which are not sort of the, the arguably the premier properties and because they've also acquired Portugal's premier legal rights in a number of territories.

[00:51:41] So maybe this is a sign that there is somebody out there that is willing to take a punt on some of the rights which are not top top. And perhaps somewhat opportunistically acquire them for various markets to try and see if they can create a second tier proposition.

[00:52:00] UP: Are there just, it's interesting, are there many Triller TV type organizations out there? Because if I, again, if I'm a rights holder, I want as many as I can in there to generate a bit of, even if it's just faux heat around, or, you know, interest in my rights. I like a Triller TV story because it sounds like they're going to come in and buy stuff and that I might be able to trade them against someone else.

[00:52:25] Is that, I'm thinking that, you know, I've seen Viya play. of exit the market. And we talked about that previously. But what is the state of the market just generally? Are there, is it vibrant? Is there loads of small organizations desperately trying to get hold of rights? Or is it, has it gone a bit flat?

[00:52:42] Yannick Ramcke: I think it's not any given market. I mean, there are always exceptions, but I don't. And for example, the U S is still an exception, even though I see the landscape changing. I don't think beyond the most competitive time ever whether it's a function of the end of the zero interest rate policy environment on the focus on bottom line, profitability and everything.

[00:53:07] And given the fact, what I said before, that the market price is predominantly determined by the competition, doesn't spell well for, like, middle and bottom of the of the pyramid. Just one note, let's not forget that Triller TV, formerly known as Phi TV, That this is not the first time that they engage in potential football property acquisitions in the UK.

[00:53:36] You might remember, because I am pretty sure we discussed this, that they had already acquired the, Spanish La Liga rights in the UK and Ireland ahead of last season an agreement which was not finalized because they couldn't agree on bank guarantees, upfront payments, whatever. So it's not their first shot at it, but I rather would look at it from the rights owner perspective.

[00:54:05] I think we really have a problem in the, or that the middle class will have a problem In the sports rights market, because the big guys like in ESPN or like in the UK, Sky, TNT Sports, they will further content, concentrate their budget on the must have properties and the price of the must have properties will either stay flat or increase.

[00:54:31] And ultimately, it's a zero sum game when it comes to budget. And whatever is not business critical, is not moving the needle, is nice to have, but for which broadcasters in the past were willing to pay some nice bucks, this middle, this will be squeezed out and then there is no other route to move it.

[00:54:51] What we discussed at the beginning of the episode, having a D2C route. It's not, I go D2C 

[00:54:58] UP: They'll have to dust down and, and crank up those old OTT channels, won't they? Once the trills go. I'm, I mean, I'm sort of interested because just from the, like Triller is a word. The Triller TV plus 7 99 a month or 70 quid a year. million registered users worldwide. Now, I mean, I'm in the UK. They, I have no idea how I would access this. And presumably I need to be in a particular group that it's talking to, and I'm not in it. That's fair enough. I'm not the audience, but

[00:55:27] Murray Barnett: Have you never used Google?

[00:55:28] UP: Yeah, but I don't.

[00:55:29] I, if I sign up for something, it's always on my telly. I always just like go via my smart telly and I'm clicking on Amazon now, Paramount. I've got them all on there. I never go, I never sign up via Google.

[00:55:40] Murray Barnett: Well, no, but I mean, again, it's a slightly facetious point, but, you know, casting these days and the ability to search via your smart TV and the increasing number of apps on smart TVs means that, , one of the things that Trigger will have to do if it's not done already is build a smart app to make people like you able to find the content much more easily.

[00:56:03] Yannick Ramcke: And we just discussed how expensive it probably for an ESPN bet was to get from two to 12 percent market share in the form of customer acquisition. Look, D2C, it's nice and easy when it comes to content production distribution. The customer acquisition is what makes it cost prohibitive for most of them and from the 8 million that Twitter TV is quoting Probably if when we are lucky we are in the five digits in the UK

[00:56:33] UP: I'm interested just because how much money would it take? To, what are their ambitions, , in the UK, for example, how would you get to, I don't know, what's a 5 percent market share? How much money, marketing money would that cost? Would that cost 10 million quid or 100 million quid?

[00:56:51] I've no idea.

[00:56:52] Yannick Ramcke: I mean you can apply simple customer acquisition or CP cost per install and they have an app or cost per acquisition but with those properties, it becomes strictly cost prohibitive to acquire the incremented customer based on the lifetime value you get out of it, right? If you sell insurances, you can pay a bunch on customer acquisition because the lifetime value is huge.

[00:57:19] If you sell monthly subscriptions at 7. 99 with a monthly churn rate of 20%, which means you turn over your entire user base. completely over the course of the year. Like spending 10 bucks is probably already too much, right? Because remember, if customer acquisition cost is lower than customer lifetime value, you just start to refinance the rights cost and everything else. 

[00:57:48] UP: is the business model just to keep on losing money until they get bought by someone? They'll have the rights that someone else will think, okay, well, I might as well take that and then I'll buy them and they can do it. Is that, is that the model? I don't, again, I'm, because I can't see how they would, that there's a business there.

[00:58:04] Yannick Ramcke: I mean, if they get bought and when they get bought or IPO or whatever, they will be bought, or they do go public due to their OS business. I mean, they have 8 million customers, right? What they say? They have a somewhat successful pay-per-view business around combat. primarily in the U. S., but many fights were also available worldwide.

[00:58:27] I don't know how business critical this U. K. operation, having a Portuguese league and AFC Asian Cup, can contribute in terms of enterprise value for any of the exit scenarios. So, I'm not saying that they're core business in the U. S. I mean, they have been in the news, right, because they did big numbers.

[00:58:48] We have people paid 50, 60 bucks per, per event that looked, it's a good story. I would double down on that one way or the other, but now building from scratch without any built in audience like an ESPN would do embedding without nothing with long tail properties in a highly competitive market like the UK. At least, what I can say is people in the UK are used to pay for content, which is a good starting place. Something that we in Germany always struggle with, or why broadcasters wonder why Germany is not that profitable of a market for a skyover. We are just cheap, but UK at least we have customers or consumers willing to pay, but are they willing to pay for that kind of property.

[00:59:36] UP: cheap Germans.

[00:59:37] Murray Barnett: more point on this, Richard, is that, you know, I think it's also becoming not a binary, you know, it's purely incumbent on Triller to market, you know, Portugal, Portuguese football, with a model going forward for non core rights holders, and indeed, actually, even some core rights holders. I mean, we discussed earlier about how NFL gave them the best wild card game for Peacock.

[01:00:02] It's going to be a much more symbiotic relationship where Using Portuguese football as an example, that it will be beneficial to them to make sure that Triller is a success and so working together rather than it being all incumbent on, say, Triller just to do the marketing, they'll be looking at other leagues that they work with to sort of say, look, we need your help to help unlock whatever customer base there is.

[01:00:30] And it's not just going to be about what Triller can do by themselves.

[01:00:34] UP: So it's a marketing campaign funded by the Portuguese League. If they're really serious, they're going to have to spend money, in building the property up. And by extension, you know, get it on Triller.

[01:00:46] Murray Barnett: I don't necessarily mean going out and spending money, but trying to find ways in which they can reach people that will pay to watch that league on, on Triller so that Triller is at the, at the door wanting to renew at the end of it.

[01:01:00] Yannick Ramcke: I wholeheartedly disagree here, because Portuguese League won't spend any time or effort or resources on 2 percent of their revenues.

[01:01:11] Murray Barnett: Sure. Yannick, I'm being, I'm just using that as a sort of a proxy, if you like, but the point is that, that leagues, if they want to see this kind of revenue come back, and let's call it peripheral markets, are going to need to be actively engaged and trying to help. Partners unlock the money. I agree that in this case that for them, it's just a fire and forget, but in order for it to be successful longer term, it's got to be a sort of a much more of a partnership approach.

[01:01:41] And, you know, just as a sort of segue ever so slightly. Some of the big federations are spending increasing amounts of money on making sure that they, or resources, I should say, rather than money on supporting their broadcast partners in every way that they can, because they recognize that if they are not a Premier League, that they have got to look after their broadcasters better, whether you want to call that B2B customer service or whatever it is, they're providing more and more marketing assets to support broadcasters in, in getting successful ratings.

[01:02:19] Yannick Ramcke: Now, and here I absolutely agree that all those bells and whistles like player access, pre produced content, all of that stuff, Absolutely. The only point I was making that the Portuguese League will not for the UK market now come up with a marketing campaign to make sure that Triller TV is up and running, given also the fact that, I mean, the Portuguese League is like two steps away, right?

[01:02:47] They have sold out their international rights to Sport5. So I guess Sport5 has an incentive to make sure Triller TV It's a success, but then sports five says to 50 plus different broadcasters internationally. So that was one point, but I fully agree with you what you said, that I need to serve my broadcasters to put them in the best position possible, to make as much use of the right that they required as possible.

[01:03:17] Pre-produced content, player access, whatever. But I think these are just two distinct.

[01:03:24] UP: okay, right. I mean, I'm, I'm, sounds like I'm, I feel really bad. I'm, I'm worried about the, about Triller TV. We should have a GoFundMe for Triller TV. I think that I'm worried about their immediate future in the UK as a, as a booker. But I'm sure they're fine. They've got it sorted.

[01:03:39] Yannick Ramcke: I mean, Richard, if I would have now said that Dugout fund me, this would be legitimate, right? But you, you can just sign up. Look, next time, please send me your order confirmation. Everything a month, so that you stick around, so you live up put your money where your mouth is.

[01:03:55] UP: Give me an up, up campaign. It's part of our CSR. Anyway, we digress. Listen, we got through a lot there. I enjoyed that. Thanks very much. As per usual, Yannick and Murray, thank you.

[01:04:08] Murray Barnett: I can't believe you got through the whole wildcard game without mentioning the Taylor Swift effect.

[01:04:14] UP: I know what I noticed in your notes actually, quite a, a barbed comment and I will come back to it.

[01:04:20] There's a note that Murray sent me, a lazy sports industry commentator might call it the Taylor Swift effect, which I thought, I don't know if that was aimed at me or other, you know, or other lazy sports industry commentators, but you know, I purposely didn't call it the Taylor Swift effect just for that reason.

[01:04:37] I've got my standards. 

[01:04:38] Right, till next time.

[01:04:40] Murray Barnett: Thank you guys.

[01:04:40] Yannick Ramcke: Thank you guys.

[01:04:43] UP: ​ Thanks for listening to Unofficial Partner. 

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[01:05:11] And if you've got an idea for a podcast, a series or a live event in 2024, Get in touch. We'd love to hear from you till the next time. Thanks for listening. This was an Unofficial Partner production. 

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