UP387 The Invictus Games, Prince Harry and the 'Unexpected Survivors' of War

What is the Invictus Games Foundation and why is it still relevant, ten years after the creation of the first event for injured servicemen and women in London in 2024?
A powerful and important conversation with Dominic Reid OBE, the CEO of the Invictus Games Foundation, the international governing body for the event that promotes sport's role in recovery from traumatic physical and psychological injury. 

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Unofficial Partner. The sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Do they were talking about the Invictus games. The sports event for injured, former serviceman. Created by prince Harry, the duke of Sussex In 2014. With our guests, Dominic Reed, OBE, who is the chief executive of the Invictus games foundation. Dominic was responsible for the operational delivery of the inaugural games in 2014 in London. A former army officer, an architect. He has worked on major events since being appointed pageant master of the Lord mayor's show. In 1992 and he's executive director of the Oxford and Cambridge boat, race director of the Royal society's 350th anniversary program. And worked on the Queen's golden Jubilee.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 0:46

when we started, he could do no wrong. He was at the absolute height of his popularity. It was extraordinary. He was absolutely in a different way. He's not in that place anymore, particularly not in the UK. Now it's very difficult if you're based in the UK to, as you said, to see it without the lens of the British tabloid media, which is, it's a difficult world. So I think it would be fair to say that in a lot of the nations that are part of the Invictus community, they have a different view. They don't care quite so much he is who he is, he does what he does, and they perhaps know him because of Invictus and because of what he does with Invictus, and it's a very symbiotic relationship, you know, it genuinely is, we have the profile we have, in large part, because he's lent his back to us. Support to it. And he, it is, it's him. It's his project. And, he has benefited from the good work that we've done. So it's a genuinely good thing

1:36

And the Invictus games is the theme of this year sports pod. Event taking place at the oval in a few weeks time. And we thank Phil and Claire Jones for their help in setting this interview up.

UP: 1:50

Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport, a mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations. With the who's who of the global industry? To join our community of tens of thousands of people. Sign up to the weekly Unofficial Partner newsletter and follow us on Twitter and Tik TOK. At Unofficial Partner. I guess the obvious place to start is job and you, I'm trying to make the link between you're an architect by training and now you're the CEO of the Invictus Games Foundation. So we just need to do a bit of bridge work without using, overextending the architecture analogy, but

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 2:37

Yeah.

UP: 2:38

take me why and how you got to do this job.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 2:41

So I work in events. I've worked in events for 30 years, and I'm very lucky that my training covers two areas, which are, you don't often find people who have done both, basically architecture and the military. So I was a soldier, and I trained and worked as an architect and that's equipped me ceremonial work and the event work that I've done, which has been fascinating and great. Brilliant fun. I've run the Lord Mayor show for 32 years and I got involved in sort of commemorative and celebratory work, if you like, back in 1995 for the 50th Day. Anyway, I've worked on those sort of things. And I suppose my reputation was, you know, I'm somebody gets things done. And and so I got a phone call when Prince Harry came back from having seen the warrior games in America in 2013 and famously announced that not only he thought it was a good idea, but we were going to do it the following year my phone rang and his. Then private secretary, or no his former private secretary Ed Lane Fox rang me and, sorry, beg your pardon, his former private secretary, Jamie Lowther Pinkerton rang me and said are you busy next year? And I said, yes, I am. I'm afraid I've got quite a lot on. He said, that's the wrong answer. Anyway, I got persuaded to become the event director for 2014. I started off as an advisor. I worked with the team there. I worked with Michelle Dyche, who had done the feasibility study and she suggested that actually they needed a bit more of my time to manage the agency sort of client relationship, which it did. And so, she and I work very closely on delivering. Delivering the games, which was a great success in 2014. And on the back of that I think it was decided that this was not just a one off. This was something that, that could be and should be developed. I mean, when we did it, the idea was that we were addressing a need. There was a pressing need for people who had been injured. principally in Iraq and Afghanistan. So you're talking about a specific group of people. These are the unexpected survivors, mostly injured after 2008 when the medical care was actually allowing them to survive when previously they would have perished. And we did that. And then we thought, Great. We'll do that. We'll address that need. And then it became clear that the need was there and the need sadly is still there. It's now more pressing than ever. So a foundation was felt to be the best way to to move things on. And I was asked by Sir Keith Mills to establish the foundation, which I did in 2015, and I've been running it ever since. So that's how I ended up here doing this. And I think that the sort of my personal connection with the military is. is a large part of why I do that. I mean, certainly I would say that the most moving day of my life professionally was the day of the VJ Day celebrations in August in 1995. I mean, there was some extraordinary stories that came out of that. And I think what we do with Invictus, which is really, amazing is that we are providing an opportunity for rehabilitation, for care, for people managing and dealing with the issues that, that their services brought them in real time, as opposed to the previous generation who had an appalling experience in the Far East and then came back and bottled it up. And then when they finally recognized they, they released and let go and died. So I think what we do is very relevant and sadly As you can see by just watching the news, there's more and more requirement for full rehabilitation and it's not going to go away anytime soon.

UP: 6:04

It's incredibly powerful phrase, isn't it? Unexpected survivors.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 6:07

Yeah, I mean, basically what happened, I mean, if you want to get the gen on that, Emily Mayhew has written a number of really good books on it, but she wrote one about the guinea pig club, which was really a very sort of Yeah. important formative group that was formed around the plastic surgery work that was done during the war in East Grensted. She also wrote a book called Heavy Reckoning, which is about how we got to where we are. And what's really interesting is that medical science and military Science and technology took care forward to the point of injury, to the extent that people who would have simply died from their wounds on the battlefield were being rescued and were being, were surviving. And that's the extraordinary thing. And of course, you know, the origin story for Invictus was when Prince Harry got bubbled by the British media and had to be extracted from his tour in Afghanistan. He ended up on a transport aircraft flying home through the night with. The coffin of a Danish soldier and three British soldiers intubated in induced comas, you know, and that was, they were the people accompanying, they were his traveling companions, if you like, and I think it had a very profound effect on him and as it would for any of us. So yeah, that's what that's where it comes from. And the stories that it. The personal stories from a lot of these people are extraordinary, you know, and you look now and you start learning the stories from those fighting in Afghanistan and it sorry, well, not only Afghanistan but but Ukraine now, I mean, absolutely extraordinary stories and extraordinary individuals. And our role is to provide sport to allow them. A recovery pathway. We all know, I mean, everybody works in sport, knows that sport is good for you. Sport is healing. Motion is lotion. It's all that stuff. And so what we're doing is creating the games as a beacon to make that an opportunity for people so that they can recover and live full and fulfilling lives.

UP: 8:07

So just so I'm clear, that relationship between the military and the medical, establishment or the medical profession, are you saying that the, there's almost like a space race thing going on where the military is moving The mainstream of medical care forward, or is it lagging? So I just wanted to just clarify what

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 8:23

I dunno, I mean, I'm not sure that there's a spacious, I mean, I think if you look at. I'm not the world's expert on this, but I mean, I have seen a bit of, and I've been to Walter Reed, you know, in Washington, D. C., which is the Americans lead, lead area. I mean, I think the technology around care has increased. But the military. Simply, you know, get it on the ground. I mean, if you can get a tourniquet onto somebody to stop them bleeding out and you can get a chopper to them within half an hour and you can yank them off the ground and you've got a team in the back of the chopper, which is effectively a you know, it's it's an intensive care unit. in the back of a helicopter, then you can sort things out. And that's what I mean by it. So it's a combination of those things. So it's sort of, it's not space race. It's just a use of a sensible use of appropriate technology and clever protocols and committed people. And, you know, and, you know, the extraordinary stories out of that. I mean, we always talk about not only physical invisible interest, but if you've been somebody who's been working in the back of one of those helicopters you know, you've got a good chance of having PTSD from those experiences because you've seen a lot of things that you shouldn't have seen and you've done a lot of work and you've saved a lot of lives, but you've lost people too, you know? So, I mean, the whole thing has, and we have people who've had those experiences as part of our cohort as well.

UP: 9:40

So in terms of the Invictus games, there's a lot of focus is on quite rightly that, you know, the people with physical injuries, you mentioned their PTSD. Is that part of this as well? What role does that play? And I'm just wondering, you know, there's a question there about unseen injury and

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 9:58

So, so invisible injuries, that is absolutely has always been a part of what we do. So that's the differentiator, the main differentiator, I suppose, between us and the Paralympics is we've always had an invisible injuries category. And one of the pieces of work that I'm really proud of is that we have developed our own Categorization. We don't call it classification. We call it categorization and it's inherently simpler than a Paralympic classification. It's designed to be that, but it's actually a really good piece of work. And whilst I think there was a degree of, you know, I think the IPC thought, well, you know, who are them? There's only the British Paralympic Association thought, you know, who are these guys? Why are they? Sort of coming and stealing our sandwiches. I think now the view is that actually we've done a useful piece of work. And I think our categorization process is a very good one. Now we've always had the opportunity for people with invisible injuries to participate. And that's very important to us. I mean, it's not without its challenges because you've got people who are in inherently physically able, but competing Within our games and actually it's worked extremely well and I think it's really important and we, you know, we hear a lot now, don't we, about mental health and it's okay not to be okay and all of that stuff, but there's a lot of work to be done on that and I think I'm really proud that we certainly led the way in terms of involving people in in, in competitive games. sport for that end. Yeah.

UP: 11:17

what do you think the sort of. The longer term implications for people coming back with those unseen injuries. We're using that phrase. How does they manifest

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 11:29

I think they manifest in all sorts of ways. I mean, I'm getting well out of my area of expertise, but I mean, I think there is I think it's clear to us that for every injury, there's a physical component. There's a mental component. There's a psychological component and there's a social component and, you know, those, you know, those things all need to be addressed. So every time you've got a physical injury, you, of course, you've got a mental component to that, but you've also got, you know, those things without physical injury as, as well. So I think that's an important thing to think about. There's a. And a lot of that's very immediate. But I think some of it manifests later on in time. So I think these things come out. I mean, there's lots of, I would say, slightly glib talk about there being a great tidal wave of people who, you know, manifest mental injuries later. I don't believe that to be the case at all. But things do come out. And I think we now live in a world where people's sensitivities and life experiences are such that, you know, if you look at what not only the military, but the civilian population in Ukraine are experiencing at the moment, I mean, there is a lot that is going to need healing. You know, at every level. So that's not necessarily that everybody needs treatment, but I mean, it's a catastrophic, traumatic thing. And we see more of that around us now. We look at what's happening in the Middle East. I mean, it's an absolutely ghastly picture. I mean, you can almost, I it's almost heavy lifting, looking at the news in the morning, isn't it?

UP: 13:05

yeah. Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Okay. So I've got a question about from your spot, from where you are, what you've noticed about the relationship between of sport, the sports world and charity. More broadly, because when we've, I mentioned that because it's a conversation in the front of my mind, because we just did a thing with Access Sport, which do you know, great work with disadvantaged and disabled kids. We're talking to the NSPCC about, you know, obviously children. And there's a sort of rider in there about government as well in terms of where that what role that plays because quite often sports are almost re presenting themselves. Almost a bit more like the Invictus Games. They are layering a social purpose onto, you know, whatever it is, the sports tournament that they are organizing. But what have you noticed? What's the, what are the good bits and the more challenging bits of that relationship?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 14:04

There's an awful lot in that. I mean, I think one of the things that's interesting about the sport that people experience when they come to watch the Invictus Games is that it's not about winning. It's about the sport. Now that in itself is a kind of an interesting reset. So you're going back to what Some of us, you know, were brought up this play out and play the game. It's about taking part. It's not necessarily about winning. And you see really moving instances of people, you know, pushing other people over the line or, you know, allowing somebody who they believe to win. More deserving to get all you know, that is inherent in the whole recovery process and the whole ethos of Invictus and people respond very well to that. So it's not commercial in the sense that some sport, I think, is has become, overtly commercial. And I think people kind of like that reset. So I think that's an important element. I think if you look at what we, the work that we do at the foundation, which desperately needs to be funded, it's hard to fund. It's easier, I think, to fund a Games because a Games is a known quantity. It's an event. It's, you know, it's sexy. It's got branding. People kind of understand it. What I would say is interesting is that the proportion of government money. Supporting each successive iteration of the Invictus Games has increased over time. So, now I think government funding is an important component of that. We've worked really hard to make sure that we try and engineer down the cost. So we're not an expensive event in the way that an Olympics or a Commonwealth Games are because we're not requiring facilities to be built, we're not, you know, all of that. But it's still, you know, it's still a chunk of money that people have to find and finding that through either you know, personal donations or commercial is quite hard. And what's really interesting is you look at the last iteration of the games, if you look at Dusseldorf, that was underwritten by the German government. Now, that was because When Ursula von der Leyen, before she became the before she was in, with the European Commission, she was the Minister of Defence in Germany. And she said to me, you know, how do we bring Invictus to Germany? We want to address the. the relationship between our civilian population and our military population, which for obvious reasons has been vexed over time. We want to kind of, we want to use this. We see this as a really good thing to help us heal as well. How do we get it to Germany? I said, well, put a bid in, make me an offer, you know, and the Bundestag voted cross party. They voted to to fund it, you know, and if you look at the announcement in the budget two weeks ago, Johnny Mercer has persuaded the Chancellor to underwrite the UK bid for the 2027 games, the Birmingham bid for the 2027 games. Now that, that's an extraordinary turnout for the books because, you know, when we started back in, in 2014 we didn't spend a huge amount of money. We Did the whole games for under eight million pounds. And we had some money from the LIBOR fund, but we didn't have anything other than that. And now you're in a, we're in a different place.

UP: 17:08

What's the relationship between, so the games, you're the CEO of the Invictus Games Foundation. Just. Join that up. I can, I think you've

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 17:15

And it's a,

UP: 17:16

covered it, but

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 17:16

We're the IOC in slightly smaller offices.

UP: 17:24

okay. So you're the sort of central

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 17:27

We're we're the we're the international governing body basically. And we, so we are the, we're the keepers of the flame. We own the IP and the rules and the ethos and we go out and we in we cause nations and potential hostages to come to us. And we run the selection process for the next games. And we manage all of that and we also manage the relationships. Internationally with the now 23 nations, members of the Invictus community.

UP: 17:52

Okay. So are you the person or are you the group who are liaising? So this audience, the unofficial partner audience and the sports business audience, the sports podge audience is people who are a lot of them are working for either agents, sports agencies, sponsorship agencies, or they are working, they are budget holders from the sponsor side for banks or car companies or whatever. Is that the point at which you engage with the commercial marketplace?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 18:21

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's something that we need to do better going forward. And I think we need it. There's a hanging question about whether being called the Invictus Games Foundation is the right I mean, it's what we were set up as, but foundation does tend to imply that there's, you know, there's a foundation that has money that you're dispersing money. That's not who we are. We're actually the international governing body. And what we need is we need people to, to support us in doing our work. We need people to support us to do that because the demand, the requirement for sports rehabilitation, for people who have been injured in combat and also wounded in, you know, wounded in combat and injured in service, I should say is vast and growing and international. And, you know, one of the things that we do is we do what we call the beyond the games activity. So that's to say, you know, adventurous challenge and sporting challenge for people who have either participated or maybe they haven't participated, but they want to be involved. And the demand that we have for that activity is colossal. I mean, we've got a, we've got a an event in. In Austria coming up and we've got eight places on that. We've got 108 applications. So you're almost getting to the point where you're creating a problem rather than solving one. And what I desperately need are people and organizations who see the value and the benefit of supporting that sort of activity, who are prepared to, to come to us and say, yeah, no, actually this is a worthwhile thing to do. We have that. with our legal partner, Clifford Chance, who are simply wonderful. They don't ask for recognition. They don't ask for branding. They do the work because they find it interesting and fascinating and worthwhile. And, you know, within their. World. We are the, you know, we, when they're young lawyers and graduates want to have internships, we are top of the list of the places place they want to go, which is fantastic. But what I need is, I need commercial organizations to see the benefit of that. Because as I said earlier, you know, you can brand a games. It's very hard to brand the work that we do, but it's so important to, to keep that community. Alive and ticking. And one of the things I'm really proud of is that we've got a thing called We Are Invictus, which is an app. So it's an online community. It's growing at 60 percent per year, right? 60 percent a year. So a lot of people joining that. Now, in order to join, you have to be bona fide, what we call WIS, wounded, injured or sick. And we need to be able to So I can't join. You can't join. If you're the team manager for, I don't know, the United States and you weren't wounded in combat, you can't join either. So that, what that does is it creates a safe space for the community to be and to exist. And the most remarkable thing about it is it's moderated. It's moderated in 23 languages. It's a really clever piece of kit. But what it does is It doesn't have any animosity or any acrimony within it. And we all know what Twitter could be like or what a lot of these platforms descend into sort of, you know, rancor and tit for tat. And there's none of that, absolutely none of that. And we've got several thousand people in that community, which is phenomenal. Now we're clearly doing something right, but We need support to do that. Now, I would've thought that there's something interesting in there, wouldn't you? That actually, if we are doing that and it's working in a world where lots of stuff isn't working, there's a benefit to be had and the benefit is come and have a look and see how we do it, learn some of the lessons rather than demanding that your logo's all over the front of it. That would be my message

UP: 21:54

Yeah. It's interesting that because there's two things about that. One is that you, you get into, which is quite some in a case like this, it feels uncomfortable where you are sort of almost commoditizing because you need to because the people, but writing the check have to go somewhere else to prove the case for the money to go towards you. So you're taking something that is complex nuanced. Obviously there's enormous value there and then you're trying to then build sort of, or write proposals which by their nature becomes a competitive marketplace. You're in the market for Clifford Chance's work, you know, patronage, you're in the market for, you know, whoever else. And they are lining, you start to get lined up with other things and I'm interested in, I'm always interested in the sort of the positioning question at that end, what it starts to look like as a proposal document.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 22:50

We're making significant we're. We've got a deal now with Boeing, which is a game changer. So Boeing is sponsoring not only the games in 2025 in Vancouver, Whistler, but they're also sponsoring the foundation and we've got a, you know, we're working on a three year deal with them, which is fantastic. So, you know, we've we're starting that process and that makes a big difference. But, you know, people assume, because we've got fairly well known brand, that there's lots and lots of, People working away doing good stuff. And actually, we've got a team of 12, you know, it's not a big team. And what we've done with that team I'm inordinately proud of, but, you know, there are so many ways in which this can influence not only the experience of our particular cohort, but sport more generally and society more generally, you know, so if we do the more of the good work that we can do, the better off we all are.

UP: 23:39

And what is the ambition for it? just more, or is there, what's the sort of roadmap?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 23:47

So the ambition, I mean, if you think about where we come from sort of humble beginnings in as much as we set up 2014, nobody quite knew how it was going to go. It turned out to be an amazing experience for everybody involved. And if you look at it, we've now taken the games around the world. So we went to Orlando, Sydney Toronto, Sydney. Then to The Hague, then to Dusseldorf, we're going back to Vancouver, Whistler, you know, we're lining up for 27. We've got some really interesting interest from potential host cities for 29 and 31. So that's the central bit. That, the Games is the beating heart, but what's happened is that a movement has grown up around it and that's where we need to do it. Now we've got, we've expanded into 23 countries. We're now on every continent. So there's work to in. to increase the size of that community. And there's an endless amount of work that can be done not only in terms of sharing best practice for sport recovery. I mean, we've, you know, we're working in nations now, who didn't think sport recovery was a thing, you know? I mean, And it's been And it's breathtaking and it's wonderful to see, but there's so much of it to be done. So if you take, for example, Nigeria, who had a team in Dusseldorf, when we went to Nigeria, we had somebody on the ground in Nigeria two years ago, people who had lost limbs. told to go to bed and we had a guy who had spent seven years in bed. We had them out skiing in Colorado before they went to the games and we've had them, we've, we had the whole team out there in in Dusseldorf. And now they're talking about. You know, building a sport recovery center. So the whole way in which that, because they just didn't, when we started talking about, you know, adaptive golf, they just didn't have any idea, any of the stuff that we're talking about was a possibility. It just wasn't there. And now it is. So that's just one tiny example. We've got, you know, you can replicate that. everywhere around the world. And that's got to be a good thing, hasn't it? It's got to be good to to create opportunities for sport to, to heal and to make people's lot in life better. And, you know, it's a, it's an enormous task. So, so The other bit is the geopolitics of it. It's the, you know, as you grow and expand and you become more of an international movement, you encounter the, all the problems that, that, that come with that about, you know, international relations and, you know, Who you admit to the community, and if you do, what do other people think about that? You know, there's an awful lot of work involved in that too. So the mission is to keep that games going as the beating heart, to build the work around it as we go and to be, if you like the sort of the font of best practice in terms of adaptive sport and sports rehabilitation.

UP: 26:30

And where do you start and stop as an organization? Are you working with partners in each of those countries? And then you're saying, okay, well, we've raised the profile of this issue. We've created the need and you identified the the potential solution. Are you also delivering the services as well?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 26:48

We're not delivering the services as an organization, but what we are doing is we're working with, as you rightly said, we're working with lots of different nations. Now there are different ways in which you can do that. So you can encourage somebody to come and send a team. And that's great. You, we experienced, we had it, I mean, I remember the first time Romania turned up. I mean, Romania are a nation. They've sent teams to the games for the last few iterations. But I remember them coming and they'd already set up their Invictus. Romania was a thing. They'd set up their charity. They'd seen it, you know, they seen it on the television. They thought, right, this is a thing. And they'd made it happen. What we, and without wanting to regulate it too hard, what we do want to do is we want to create a model that works for people. So we've got Invictus Australia, which is established and is, you know, is a model that I think we would want to build on. We've got Invictus Germany now. We've got those things beginning to happen in different places around the world. And of course, every nation does it differently because every nation's attitude to their military and to their veteran population is different. So if you look at the UK in 1917, we established the Royal British Legion to look after veterans. It's not a government responsibility entirely. It's a mix and the same might be true in Australia, but you might go to another country and find that actually it's all about the MOD. in that country. Or you might find that there's no interest at all and it's all left to charity. So every time you go somewhere, you've got to re, you know, you've got to create a new methodology around how you make that happen. And that requires people on the ground and requires people back at home in the office. And I need to be able to pay them. That's all it is.

UP: 28:23

Who knew? Okay. We're half an hour in. I've, I haven't asked you a Prince Harry question. What's he like?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 28:29

What's he like? He's great. I mean, he was, it was, you know, it was his idea at the inception. I mean, he went to the Warrior Games. He had that personal experience. I mean, I think his 10 years in the army was, you know, was an extraordinary time for him. I think he was, you know, As we all would be, he was deeply upset to be forced to leave his blokes on the ground and to come back. I think the experience of that journey, as I've said, traveling in an aircraft with those people in induced comas and with a corpse in a coffin, you know, that was a very, Moving and significant experience for him. My experience of him is that he has been engaged throughout. He still is, you know, we were in a text conversation last night about an issue. You know, he's absolutely engaged with it. If you watch him, if you watch any of the games and you see the way that he interacts with people, he's got an extraordinary bond and he's got lots of close personal relationships there. But he is also got, I think, remarkable emotional intelligence in the way that he deals with older veterans and those people. But also I found him to be very good at bringing it back to the fundamental issue, which is that it's about. It's about the men and women. It's about those who we're working with. And he's always done that very well. So, yeah, he's been a hard worker. He's been great to do it. I mean, obviously, life has not been easy for the last few years. And the move has made, meant that, you know, we do more of it remotely than we used to. But no it's been good. And I think you'd definitely find, if you were to ask members of the community you'd get that same. Same view from them,

UP: 30:09

It's interesting that, you know, it's impossible to come at his life without it being filtered. I'm sitting here in the UK. It's filtered through media. It's a, you know, a daily barrage of stories and all of the agendas flying here, there, and everywhere. Has it had any impact on, The organization

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 30:27

must've done, but it's very hard for me to tell you what that would be. I mean, when we started, you know, he could do no wrong. He was at the absolute height of his popularity. And I was really lucky. I went to the, I was invited to the wedding. I actually did the today program and all the media stuff on his behalf around. The wedding. It was extraordinary. He was absolutely in a different way. He's not in that place anymore, particularly not in the UK. Now it's very difficult if you're based in the UK to, as you said, to see it without the lens of the British tabloid media, which is, you know, it's a difficult world. So I think it would be fair to say that in a lot of the nations that are part of the Invictus community, they have a different view. They don't care quite so much about. Some of the bits and pieces, you know, he is who he is, he does what he does, and they perhaps know him because of Invictus and because of what he does with Invictus, and it's a very symbiotic relationship, you know, it genuinely is, we have the profile we have, in large part, because he's lent his back to us. Support to it. And he, it is, it's him. It's his project. And, you know, he has benefited from the good work that we've done. So it's a genuinely, it's a genuinely good thing. But if you ask me what impact has things have on it, they must have made things harder. I mean, I know, you know, there have been times when it has, but it's difficult to gauge because it's both at the same time. And I think it's always going to be.

UP: 31:45

Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I'm just looking at a picture of you, Harry and Jon Bon Jovi at Abbey Road. It's a, it's an interesting life you have, isn't it?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 31:55

It is an interesting life. Now I've had, I mean, it has been the most extraordinary 10 years, and it's been amazing. So the Jon Bon Jovi thing was good. There's also, you probably haven't got the photographs there, when a group of people recreating the famous Beatles Abbey Road photograph.

UP: 32:09

Yes.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 32:11

There are one or two of those on my phone. Yeah, no, it's been amazing. And we've had support from some really good people. You know, we have over time. It's been phenomenal. And and I'll let that continue. We've got our 10th anniversary this year. So it's 10 years in September since we did 2014. And we've got some events happening in, in May. We've got a, an iteration of the conversation, which is our symposium which is happening on the 7th of May. And then we've got a we're going to have a service at St. Paul's Cathedral on the 8th, which I think is going to be quite an extraordinary event.

UP: 32:39

What is the symposium? What's the nature of that?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 32:41

so that's about where we've come, where we've come from. And what we do is we have a different sort of topic. We do a series of panel discussions and we work through that but it's a great opportunity now to re examine. where we are, where we come from, how you build that international community. That's what we're looking at.

UP: 32:58

And for the next 10 years.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 33:00

Absolutely.

UP: 33:01

Okay. Listen, Dominic, good luck with everything. And we'll see you at Sports Podge.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 33:07

I'm looking forward to it.

UP: 33:08

Have you been before?

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 33:10

I have. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I was there last year. It was great. Really good. I vaguely remember it as well. All

UP: 33:15

It's always good. Okay. Thank you. I'll see you there.

Dominic Reid, CEO of Invictus Foundation: 33:18

right. Take care.