UP390 Live from Madrid - The Billion Euro Club Football Brainstorm at ECA Club Connect

Live from Madrid, The Billion-Euro Club Football Brainstorm.
Big ideas discussed by great panelists from across the European club game, courtesy of ECA Club Connect, the inaugural business summit convened by the European Club Association.
Over 350 directors and operational leaders from more than 200 clubs met at the Meliá Castilla Hotel over 24-25 April.

This podcast features 12 experts, 4 topics, 1 hour.

What decisions will we make today to build a robust and sustainable football club of the future?

Group 1 - Commercial
Ebru Koksal - Galatasaray FC, Mercury13
Daniel Levy - Maccabi Tel Aviv FC
Diego Sanchez Trillo - Atletico Madrid FC
Group 2 - Data
Johannes Dobretsberger - Austria Wien FC
Pal Orosz - Ferencváros TC
Catriona McCallum - Heart of Midlothian FC     
Group 3 - Content
Helena Heckschen - RB Leipzig FC
Sebastian Helbig - BSC Young Boys
Anna Nordström Carlsson - Malmo FF
Group 4 - Mop Up
Charlie Marshall - ECA
Fran Jones - Brentford FC
Rouven Kasper - VfB Stuttgart

Find out more about ECA Connect here.

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Transcript

0:00

Hello, and welcome to Unofficial Partner, the sports business podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. This is a special live edition of the podcast. Which we recorded onstage. In Madrid. At ECA club connect and the inaugural business summit convened by the European club association. Over 350 directors and operational leaders for more than 200 football clubs. And this session features 12 of them. So we had 12 experts, four topics, one hour. The first voice you'll hear is Michael Short commercial director of the ECA doing a quick introduction. Thank you very much for joining. This may look like a panel session. It may look like just a normal sports business conference, but I assure you the next 90 minutes will not be that. My name is Michael Short. I'm the head of commercial affairs here at ECA, and it's my pleasure to do something a bit different, and hopefully the first of many similar opportunities for clubs to talk and for clubs to listen. You heard from David Garrido, our host, this morning about Club Connect, it's new. When you have to start something new, you have to do some heavy lifting to get it off the ground. So I did what any decent commercial person would do and find a way to outsource as much of that work as possible. And that's where I then met the Unofficial Partner guys. And their interview with our CEO, Charlie Marshall, was a big hit a few months ago. They're a trusted, well respected, and very broadly listened to podcast covering sports business topics. And we thought, hey, What better opportunity to bring them along to our first Connect style event, one that's focused on content, it's focused on people and not on politics. So that's what we've done. Today is going to be a podcast It's and it will be launched next week to all of the Unofficial Partner listeners, to all of the ECA members., you heard today our membership. Team have been working very hard for the last 12, 18 months. And it made us hit the number of 620 member clubs. But we decided that this was the best opportunity we could think of to give a voice to some of the additional 300 or so extra clubs that have been part of the ECA family over the last. 18 months. That's what we're going to do. We're going to hear 12 club voices. I'm going to stop talking and I'm going to hand over now to your host for the day, which is Richard Gillis. Please give him a round of applause as he enters the stage. Thanks very much, Michael. The thing I've learned, over the last sort of few weeks preparing for this is if you want a job done, get Michael Short to do it, essentially. there aren't many better at getting stuff done. So, welcome to Unofficial Partner. So, as Michael said, over the course of five years, it's quite interesting. You get lots of people coming on to a podcast and quite a lot of them come on and say, You know what? Football should do this. Club football commercial people should do that. They should create a D2C strategy. They should have an ESG strategy. They should Be a bit like Netflix, and Ryan Reynolds, and Rexham, and they should create content, and documentaries, and stories, and behind the scenes. And they should have a data personalization aspect. You should know every fan intimately, in the way that Jeff Bezos knows what I do, on an intimate basis. And Amazon. So you should build Amazon as a football club. And also, just finally, win on Saturday. So that's your job. And frankly, it sounds quite straightforward, quite easy from, from where I'm sitting. What I thought we'd do It would be interesting to do. It just runs some of those ideas, themes, through the people who are actually, whose job it is to do this stuff at the sharp end, which is you lot. I'm going to invite up just a group of wise people to talk about it. So can we just give a round of applause, please. to our first group of three. Group one, which was the commercial group kicked us off air brew Cox. Well, formerly chief executive of Galatasaray and an investor in mercury 13, the multi club investment vehicle, Daniel Levy of Maccabi, Tel Aviv, Diego Sanchez, Trello Athletico Madrid on very much on home ground where should we start? Hey, Brew. there is a story that's running that the media money is going to go away. Gen Z, the idiots, Gen Z, they're not going to pay subscriptions in the same way. So the TV media money, that supply chain, that gravy train that's been consistent for 20 odd years is going to stop. just give me a sense, an opening gambit of your sense of the marketplace, the broader market for money and football. Thank you. One of the very few perks of being a woman in football is you get to speak first in a panel. So thank you for that. I will touch briefly upon eight topics that I think impact both commercial revenues and yes, very quickly, very, very quickly. Um, first of all, kudos to Charlie and the whole team for, um, increasing the membership to 620 clubs. Wonderful news, but let's face it, we're not all on the same boat. Many of us are prisoners of geography, whether it's to do with our populations or difficult geographies or. economic conditions in the country, or political conditions in the country, and I would throw in that prisoners category, also prisoners of ownership. In some cases, some of us are member owned, or some of us are owned by private equity funds, whose only, you know, wish is to grow their investment. So, that's a constraint to begin with. Secondly, you touched upon Gen Z, you know, let's look at where growth can come from. ECA has a very interesting fandom study, which I love. People like me, who are club loyalists, who would never change their club. I'm a diehard Galatasaray fan. We're only 14 percent of the fan population. And club fanatics, football fanatics, are only 11%. So the remaining 75 percent are actually fluid. And a big portion of that is Gen Z. who are not necessarily consuming football in the same way as our generation did. So that is a challenge that we need to take into consideration. Equally, half of the world is watching football. We have extracted pretty much every dollar out of them that we can. I think fans are really paying out of their budgets, you know, difficult money for watching, going to the matches, wearing the jerseys. So, can we squeeze any more, Okay, let's just hold that then, because I am one of those people that gets squeezed. I don't look like it, but I get squeezed, and it's subscriptions, and it's costs, it's season tickets, it's all of that stuff. Daniel, take us inside, so Maccabi Tel Aviv. What's, does my setting of the scene, does that resonate with what you're seeing? Ebro said quite a few things that I think are the most challenging for us, because we are, let's say, stuck in the jail of geography, okay? So we are numbered in Israel, and with 23, 000 season tickets, we cannot sell anymore, so we reach our cap, So, we need to find new ways to bring new audience, we need to find the bridge, and this is what I'm thinking of, to bring new audience to the stadium without really bringing them to the stadium, because all of us know that season tickets is something that you pass to your son and move forward, so meaning that the new generation probably will not be able to go to the stadium, so maybe they will not like your team as much. The way I see it, we need to find the bridge for the young generation to allow them to consume our product, to be part of the entertainment. And I think it can be happen only with technology. Everybody's talking about the metaverse, okay, two years ago or anything else. But in the end, it will come to that probably I said, I think that in five years, the world of VR will be a massive issue. They will be able to watch things without being in the stadium. But we need to prepare ourselves to that in order for us to reach to other audience in our limits. It's not like, okay, everybody talking, let's find New audience around the world. Let's go and, I don't know, reach out for India because in India you have more than 1 billion people who still doesn't like football. It doesn't mean that it's really there. People are saying it's there. It doesn't mean that we are really there and that you can reach it. So we need to find ways in our own audience to get more. So There's a couple of things there. One, I disagree on VR. I think it's, it might be a massive hoax. I think it might be a sort of, you know, just, I'm never going to do it. And I don't, I don't see how it's going to work if it's still me wearing this thing on my face. But we'll part that. It's not about that. Can you give us an idea of how many season ticket holders are there? And what's Carpe Televiso? Just give us an idea. For example, we have 23. We're talking about almost a million fans in Israel. So maybe, um, For us, maybe there is another, I don't know, 1 million abroad because we are a Jewish team, so maybe I can reach them also. But in the end, you are looking at 400 that are the main core, so they will not be able to reach us. So I need to find a way to give them what they're expecting. So 400, That will be willing to pay for other content. Okay. Diego, same sort of Question for you, give us a bit of flavor of the Atletico fanbase, how you define it, that world. I believe we are a different club, we are not trying to be FC Barcelona or Real Madrid, we are happy at the position that we are, that we are the challengers. And our fans feel, they feel like that, and we try to be this club that it's, The club that is not polarizing, and that's why our fan base is very wide. we used to be a club that most of our fan base was very local, and we, and our strategy was really focused, uh, to the people that they come to the, to the match, to watch the games, see some ticket holders. But we realized that we have fans all over the world, and currently, Our fan base, I would say like we are now having like, uh, 60, 000, uh, 60, 000 season ticket holders. But if we trust Nielsen, that I don't know if we trust them or not, sorry about it. Um, we have like two hundred, uh, and forty million people all over the world. So our strategy is evolving and now we are trying to look for different ways to engage, as my colleagues were saying, to engage people that they cannot come to the stadium. So it's a lot about digital, it's a lot about Uh, going on tours, uh, on summer, letting all the fans know that, that we take care of them, not just the people that they come to the stadium. So what was the number that, the big number, what was that? 240 million if we trust Nielsen. Okay. That's not my data. So there are 240 Athletico fans in the world, is the premise, okay. And how much do you know about them? Do you know who they are? Is that the challenge? Well, there's an interesting case study, everyone in the room will be aware of, the Barcelona Spotify case study, where they, you know, there's a massive number of fans in that sort of outer ring, but then, um, beneath the bonnet, they had, I think, three million direct connections. So, there is that disparity, and part of the conversation we're going to have is about how that works. What's, what do you know about that group? Long answer short, I had no idea about my 70, 000 season ticket holders one year ago. So, so this is something that we found out that is currently crucial to us to understand. Uh, how our fans are behaving, what do they like, because at the end of the day, it's something that is going to generate business, uh, directly and indirectly, because if I do proper strategies to reach people targets, uh, that we know that are keen to buy, uh, a shirt of the club, that are keen to travel to watch the team, that are keen to Uh, give data to, uh, to get some prices on a contest. It's not just that I know the fund and I can take a direct revenue from them. It's also that the brands that are approaching ourselves, they know that we have our fund base targeted. And that's what the companies, they really want and they really like. What we experienced, uh, in the past is that, for instance, we were sending a newsletter. For one insurance company giving a big discount to our fans, nobody was opening it. What's the sense to send a newsletter to all my fan base when there are fans that they cannot even buy those products? So, we've been working in the last year and a half. To be able to understand exactly, uh, who we are talking to and how they behave. So, it's not only that how we are going to communicate to them, but also how we can give an extra value to our sponsors and partners. Okay, so that question, Ebru, think one of the themes of this will be that there are incremental gains to be made and a lot of people saying about there are small marginal areas and we'll talk about where the money comes from. It might be sponsorship, it might be merchandise, it might be, other areas, other bits of the pie, but are there any big leaps? Is there any big, major transformative pots of money that Football is not accessing. What do you think? You're, I like talking to Ebru because she's football, but it's also she comes with that banking background, which looks at things differently. Tell, what do you think? Okay. Um, I will say, uh, something a bit controversial. Maybe commercial teams are never responsible from team value management or trading of players, right? Okay. And it is significant, uh, because A, it can significantly increase your revenues if you are good at player trading. But equally, it impacts your results, where you end up in the league, and that has, again, a significant impact on how many seasonal tickets you're going to sell the next year, or how many jerseys you're going to sell the next year. So I think that the decisions on the squad and the way the squad is managed for a higher value should involve the commercial teams as well. That's one. Secondly, um Hang on, hang on, hang on. Okay. Hang on, hang on. So that means Diego has a view on the most valuable players that we, that the manager should be buying and the team, the football team should be buying. No, I get the point and I fully agree with with everybody that it's that we need when we are, uh, working on the sporting and the commercial area to align what is the strategy of the team. Uh, it's, I think that it's clear to everyone that if we hire one player from. One country in Southeast Asia. My chances of getting a sponsor from that country are going to increase by 100. Actually, there are, there are countries where if you don't have a player from that country, you are not going to be able to sell a partnership. And moreover, uh, the fund base is going to increase. We've noticed that with, uh, Tottenham, for instance, in Korea, they are the biggest, uh, the biggest club in Korea. Uh, now, uh, PSG, when they signed, uh, uh, Kylian Mbappé. I believe that he's the one selling the biggest amount of shirts. So I fully agree with everyone that we need to align both the sporting and the commercial area in order to be able to increase the revenues and the success of the club. So this is, and myself and Sean are Spurs fans, and one of the downsides for the Korean population is that they come over and they have to sit next to Sean in the stadium and they get the real match day experience. So that's a, that's a. What we're saying there is, I'm wondering what the incentive then is the marketplace. If that happens, if you think, and I live in Brighton on the south coast, they found a defensive midfielder for five million and sold him for a hundred million. That's, a lot of money in relative terms to the other pots. So what you're saying, Edward, is a football club should be a football club. It should be good at playing football, do the player trading. That's where the strategic focus should be. Everything else is, uh, No, I'm saying that it needs to be a, an effort that is really joined because as former CEO of Galatasaray, the most difficult decisions I had to take or witness was mostly around player sales, right? I mean, we have, again, a constraint of being a membership based club where elections for presidents and board take place every two years and every new board that comes in has a very short period of time to be successful. So, um, they want to keep a player who can impact what's happening on the pitch. But On the finance side, you actually need to sell that player. So the decision should not just belong to the sporting side. I'm saying you need to take a holistic approach to understand what's best for the club taking into all the constraints. So, and again, I think we'll talk about this in a minute, but Daniel, if everyone is following that strategy, how many 5 million quid players that are worth 100 million are out there? And everyone in this room wants one. We will face a huge, huge problem because only one can win the championship in my league. So meaning all the rest in a few years will not have the right to live. So as a club, and this is what I'm saying, we are not just a football team, we are a club and this should be the way we look at ourselves. And to give something that is an added value as a club Meaning when you are approaching sponsors or even players, you need to represent something that is more just the winning. Of course, I won't speak without everybody knows that winning is the most important thing. But still, you must have something that will stand there for years, in order for you to pass the bad years. Because if not, we will not be able. You will not be able to sell sponsorships, you will not be able. To have fans you will not be able to sell season tickets because if winning it's the only thing You're in a bad situation just for an example, okay Take the premier league. Okay. I don't know. Let's take Tottenham and we spoke about it uh How many fans Tottenham has you probably know it more than me? global wide Oh, I don't know. I don't believe fan numbers. All right, but let's take a number My guess is that it's around 40 50 million More or less. Well, they would say much higher than that, but again, I don't believe them. Ah, but they're not winning the championship. Okay, so what? They have no right to live? No. But they need to find something to tell a story that will consist and will keep on living, even if they are not keep on winning the championship. For example, they can do a content, okay, that represent them as a club. And just to sell it for their own fans in 3, 4, even if I had, me as a fan, if I had a, I don't know, one of the worst season ever, but I would like to see the behind of the scenes, and if I, Scott Tottenham, did a movie about it, that keeps the whole season, I can sell it, I don't know, for 10, 000, 000 in 3, so there you have like, 30 million dollars incomes easy without even winning the championship The investment. Okay, you need to have I don't know content department What is the investment of a content department talking about our eyes and things like that taking good good people will cost you yearly cost 1 million 1 million and a half Look at the ROI. It has nothing to do with championship. It has nothing to do but it can represent values of the club during this movie. You can make a lot of things that are not related only to the fact that if you're winning or losing, of course, players are money generated. Everything is very understandable, but we need to find other things. Okay, I'm going to just, we had the, the question of Big Leaps, women's football, the women's game. Ebru, you're a, you're an investor in Mercury 13, which I think is a really interesting story at the moment. We had Victoire who runs the fund on our podcast. Where does that fit in? Because of the story, the top line story is the women's game is different. It's a different audience, different people, different people watching and therefore different sponsors sponsoring for different reasons. And that's a route out. is that the premise of? Definitely. And 58 percent of the 13 to 24 year old fans. have stated interest in watching women's football as a branch out better than men's football. And we are seeing also that the audience is different. So it is definitely a very significant opportunity to bring in new audiences into football as a whole. And that will needless to say, also allow the clubs to represent better the communities they serve. and that should also trickle up all the way to the decision making tables. Historically, obviously, uh, half of the population has been left out from decision making, and it's very important that the boards are composed of, people who come there for merit, represent independent views, and selected on a transparent basis as well. And then I think everything will work out much better. And that's part of our Open Doors agenda at Women in Football. So you've got Open Doors, and Infantino's got Open Doors as well, so that's good. There's lots of Open Doors, aren't there? Excellent. Big round of applause for this group, we're going to get Group 2 on. Thank you. group two is a data group. Your Hannah's debrett's burger, Austria, VN. Powell Eros of a Fern traverse in Hungary. And Katrina McCallum from hearts in Scotland. So this bit is, data Again, a word that you were bombarded with and it can mean anything. It's almost lost its meaning. I don't know, I don't really understand what it means. It can mean anything. We're going to talk to what this actually means. Johan, I want to talk to you first of all. We talked on the first panel about fans, the big fan, big number, the number we know, the ones we don't. The ones we want. All of this is data. Take us inside your position at Austria. What do you, how do you view this question of knowing fans? How do we know them? What do we know about them? And what's the, I guess there's a question about what the aspiration is. What are you moving toward? Yeah, thank you and hello everybody. I think data, this is really, A big word, yeah, and also for us, of course, and I give you some insights to Austria Wien How we want to run this, uh, first of all, I think the importance from the beginning is to have a Clear data journey, a data strategy, and this is something which we are really facing problems Currently because we have many daters, many data silos in different forms. We have ticketing, we have merchandising We have CMR, we have ERP So the challenge, what you mentioned, so the big few is, how can we combine all this data into one? And this is a really critical question for us, because it's a data driven transformation. And this is something, of course, which incorporates also a move of our culture. So not everybody, of course, is taking this decision. But we need to. We need to go this way. We need to tell our data story with proof points. And this of course is something Uh what we heard before Who we want to target how we want to target them and we need this data point So yes big question and I think a big challenge But if we have this data strategy, which is a long term strategy and of course we we will Uh have a good impact for us and at the end of the day for our partners And is it something that you're growing this capability? You Let's call it personalization. A nice, another nice word, but knowing who the fans are. Is it something you're growing in house or is it something that you think you have to buy in from outside? This sounds expensive, and if I'm the chief exec, I'm thinking, hang on a minute, but tell me what the options are. So we are not living in an ideal world. We have a media house in, in our cup, so we need to take. Experts to us. Yeah We don't have a data analyst. Yeah, I would like to have but we know a data analyst is productive maybe in eight months so What we do is we educate ourselves to this data driven approach. So we take external help Bringing up to this in a level where we can really reuse our data We want to go this very targeted segment because we heard before the example of insurance We had the same experience the more you are targeted The more you can reach the personas, the more you can sell, of course, and also the partners are going to sell more. So yes, we educate ourself. We have taken currently last two weeks workshops where we go this new data journeys We're selling data. We're selling the story behind it. And this is a completely change of how we sell in the future So my sales team we are not selling anymore the led Flakes and and whatever we are selling digital stories And that is something, of course, a change in our attitude. It's a change in our approach. And this is where we're going forward. Okay, thank you. And, Kat. just give me a top line, response to the data question. We all know what the big aspiration is, but what's Realistic. Yeah. And it's, it's something we've been wrestling with, I think, since I joined TARTS five years ago is how do we pull all those disparate data sources together? So we've just recently partnered with a tech company who's helping us do that. basically pulling all the data in through APIs from all our different systems, and it's giving us a much clearer view of the fan base, and is allowing us to do that much more targeted personalized marketing. It's for a club of our size. We can't afford a big consultancy or an agency or something to come and do that. So we've invested in tech, which is very reasonably priced. It's, it's going to give us ROI for sure. but it's, it's also we're, we're now just working through that process of we've got the data, we can shape it, but now what do we do with it? But it's definitely going to help us massively in terms of whether it's shirt sales, we've opened a hotel, we're fan owned, we can now see who's not buying shirts, but who owns, is a founder of the club. We can see who has never stayed in our hotel, but is a season ticket holder, so we can do much more targeted marketing. This is a stupid question. Why have you opened a hotel? Um, just another revenue stream. We had space in the stadium. We looked at various things to do within the stadium space, whether that was offices, then obviously COVID came, offices aren't such a good bet anymore, um, we're based in Edinburgh, there's a dearth of hotel rooms in Edinburgh, so we've opened a four star hotel, on our second floor. and it's not football led, it's very much for the tourist market as well as football traffic. So that's just sort of using the asset of the land and the area. Absolutely, it's just, it's utilizing everything that's, you know, how often, how much can you use the stadium beyond football, um, and how can you use the space you've got there. So yeah, and it's all, it's all run, everything we do at Hearts as well is, is run by ourselves, so um, it's all then just money coming back into the club to hopefully help us close the gap on those above us. And, just finally, give me an idea of the proportions of money. I'm not asking for numbers, but as in terms of, what are the big pots of money and what are the So in Scottish football, um, it's not, it's definitely not TV money. So, for us, it's very much, it's your ticket revenue. We're very fortunate that we sell out every single game, bar two this season. And then it's commercial, sponsorship, retail. So, but the TV money is not at the same levels as you get in the EPL or Germany, it's not our biggest, um, income stream. so the European money. European money is massive for us obviously, so we, um, two years ago we got to group stage for the first time and that is roughly five million for us. Last year we finished fourth, so we didn't quite do so well. Currently sitting in third, with a good gap between us. So fingers crossed we get that money again this season. But that's the stuff that will really be game changers for us, is European money. And also player sales, obviously, is another big thing for us coming through the academy. Which ties back to Ebru's point about the Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Pal, how many fan let's talk, let's ask the fan question. Give me an idea. Hungry. Hungry. Hungary we are talking about. Thank you. I have to go back a little bit in time to make you understand. Actually, we, Ferencváros, we took it over 13 years ago. It was in quite a hard situation. Ferencváros is a Budapest team and, uh, Yeah, we said, I come from marketing and I said, okay, we have to consider it as a brand just like any other brands on the market. There's a big difference between our brand and the other brands on the market is that our brand is a love brand. So our supporters are consumers. If you put it this way, we'll never switch to another brand. If you have a proper brand management, and this is the way we started. And I also believe that football now is a branch of entertainment business as well. It's not only a sport, and you have to consider it just like any other businesses. And if you do it this way, you will be successful. On the pitch. We are at a certain level now, we come back to last five years in group stages, last two years, uh, promoted from group stage to spring season and, uh, of the pitch as well. We are making a lot of, lot of progress and we consider it as a business and you cannot run a business without, without using data. So we are, we are lucky, very lucky because nine years ago we had the new stadium, the group of Marna in the center of Budapest, which is really a beautiful, uh, stadium and a very modern stadium. We have a special entry system to the stadium. So actually, anybody who wants to enter to the stadium has to register and get a a club card. And when registering, you have to give a lot of data about yourself. And then you have to say if you agree the club uses data for marketing purposes or not. And presently we have we are using more than 110, 000 data regularly. We are contacting our fans regularly. We have an in house media department who is responsible for this, and every year we make, every season we make approximately 70 million contacts with our supporters, so we know quite a lot about them, their habits, their consumption habits, and it's also very, very useful for us when we have negotiations with prospective sponsors. And I was going to ask, it's interesting when you ask your fans to give the data. Quite often this conversation is framed as a privacy question. You're intruding, the big platforms are intruding on my personal data. But actually, I want Spurs to know more about me. Because they can treat me better and serve me better. So it's quite, so your experience is the same. You feel like your fans want to engage. Yeah, that's an interesting question. Actually, when we started it, it was, The way you said, they were really, really, very careful about why, why you wanted my data. And then those who gave their data, uh, told the others what happened to them after giving their data. You know, nothing bad, only good things. Uh, they were, they were contacted by the club. They were contacted if they allowed by the sponsors of the club actually. So, I think that, they explained to the others what advantages this, comes with. And the others also wanted to be part of that after that. And I think that now we are Really at the level which is really top in Hungary that this domain and I think that this is this is only the beginning So we are we are we made the research and when we took over the club in 2011 And out of the 10 million people living in Hungary, uh 1. 4 million Uh 1. 04 million so less than 1. 1 million Supported the club which was a big number a huge number and number one in Hungary But by now, it's the same research was made every every third year. And the recent research showed that we have more than 2. 2 million supporters. So actually contacting them on a regular basis, of course, success on the pitch. I totally agree. This is this is the most important. But apart from that, you have to build the club and the brand itself. And if the supporters feel that they they have advantages from giving their data as they will. Okay, so, uh, Johan, just in terms of that question about what's in it for the fans. So what's in it for your supporters of me giving you my information, my personal information. I'm guilty of this and I think a lot of people are guilty about talking about football fans as a homogenous blob of just, without any segmentation, without any. Different personas, so Spurs fans are very different. I'm a Spurs fan, Sean's a Spurs fan. You know, they're very different people. They can, you know, they can behave very differently and we want and buy different things. How does this help? I guess, because we get from the big word of data down to what's in it for me. Yeah, I think it's a good point. What we observe is that Our fans really, uh, like the approach that we want their data. So when we send out newsletters, please give us your data, update your data, we don't face any big problems, we don't face any complaints. So what we, uh, identify out of this is that they want to be more targeted service. Where? In the ticketing, they want to have a clear merchandising present, maybe they have their birthday. Then they get a discount and they get a ticket plus a scave, whatever. Same is true, by the way, for our gastro. They want to be more, uh, transparent in the form how they will be served. For the future, we hope to bring people together or seated service, you know, to get their beer on the seat. They don't need to wait in the midterm. So all this together gives us the impression that the fans really likes to give the data to us. Just explain that seated thing again. So what's happening? I'm coming into your stadium. I'm sitting down something's waiting for me Correct. Yeah, we are a cashless stadium, which is the big the big advantage So we know where people are going where they are moving and uh, we are not yet here Yeah, that's a bit of a next step approach But yes, uh at the at the future when they are buying the tickets that they have really to give the order Uh of having a beer coke, whatever on their seat delivered Yeah, something to give more convenient. It's good for us It's good for the customer, of course, because we know what he prefers and this is what the feedback we can give to our sponsors So now we are entering in this discussion where we are going for. Are we a traditional club? Or are we moving into a more and more entertainment club? This is a big discussion is a big topic between traditionals and between new innovators in the club From my perspective, we are moving in this way because we need this entertainment approach. We need this fan engagement. We need this data to be again, more targeted, reaching out. Even in our contracts, we make us much more measurable in the future for our partners and sponsors, how much reach you want to get from us, how much impressions you want to us, how much CPM value you want to us, all of that, we really want to bring together in a contractual agreement. to make us measurable. What does it mean? We're moving into a way of, I would say, more data driven fan engagement and entertainment oriented way. So it's getting closer to a sort of theater experience. I'm going to the ground and you can see where I'm going in terms of the culture of football, fans, you've got noise, you've got, that's not why they're there, is this a particular group that you're targeting? Who are going to pay higher prices for that ticket that I'm getting serviced. I'm getting everything. Whereas over there They can just carry on being football fans as we've always known them. Yeah, that's the wish scenario Again, we are not yet there. We are a smaller club, but we move there And I'm with UKED. So this is incremental revenue Incremental revenue, of course, we make our homework. We are selling our products What we need to sell in the stadium, but the incremental revenue is something which we see a big approach. And it's not our approach, by the way. It's the approach from our customers. It's the approach of our fans. It's the approach of our partners who are coming to us and saying, look, give me your story. Give me your content. Give me your data. We want to match it. We want to go in a common journey on that. So it's something we get the requests in. We deliver the market. Okay. Cat, what about that question of different fans under the banner of a Hearts fan? And there's a sponsorship question, I guess, in terms of whether you could, you could talk about category exclusivity. You know, that's always a sort of tenet of selling sponsorship. You can have this whole category. and whether that gets in the way, actually, sometime. So in terms of, you know, when you're talking about maybe upmarket, mid market. mass market. It doesn't get in the way, I don't think. What we do take to sponsorship is the same as we do with the fans. It's a very data driven approach. I think if you looked at the kind of Hearts commercial sponsors four or five years ago, a lot of them would be local, they would be people who were Hearts fans, who were one time to put money into the club. I think the reach of football is so much wider than that. But actually, for us, trying to break that down in terms of how can we prove that point. So again, that's been a lot of investment of money and time from our side to Get the tools, and again, we can't afford the consultancies to come in and do that work for us, so we've looked at more innovative ways of doing that, but being able to actually go to people and say this is the value of broadcast, of social, of news that you can have if you partner with hearts, is making a massive difference to how we can then increase prices and also bring on just better sponsors. Okay, right, applause for this group, please, and we'll get the next group up. And group three is a content group. Halina Hexion, RB, Leipzig. Sebastian helbig BSC young boys and a Nordstrom Carson. Of Malmo right, so we're building, and we're getting to, marketing, storytelling, area here, which has been touched on for And it's important and we're going to sort of go through and again, the question is really what's, what's possible. What's the goal? Let's, where should we start? Let's start at Malmo, Anna. Tell us a little bit about the club and your, there's a, the ultimate question is how you view content, What's available for you to use and how you distribute it and where it, who it's going to? But just take us inside that, that question, that story. Thank you. Malmö FF is a pretty small club and, we need to dig into what our supporters want to, to have. We need to, to understand their dreams and their desires and, uh, we need to, as we say in Sweden, have our ears into the ground and listen to them. So I think it's, that's the main point of doing content. We also have our own play channel. We were the first club in Sweden distributing and producing the qualifying games in football. I think that's a way for us to, to build a broader and bigger community. So of course,, talking about content and social media and all that, it's very important to have the three parts together, sports, business, and community, and never forget, forget about the community. Okay, I can't, we can't get through this panel without mentioning Wrexham, Ryan Reynolds, picture story of, of here's a smaller club who then is, building a profile and we're looking at the long tail and we're saying, right, okay, they've opened up markets. They can now access and they're selling sponsorship at a higher price point. That story said, what do you think about your relationship to that? Is that, is that discussed at all within the club? Is it something you think if you hear owners or you hear people say, yeah, okay, well that, why don't we do That is that something that's A live conversation. I think it's one way. so we are like malmo We are small or a medium sized club Like the majority of the 600 dca clubs and so we are forced to go several different ways and I think We can't afford to focus on just one way like a documentary or stuff like that. Yeah But we have to go several different ways Also in terms of content, we insourced, um, the, all the media resources like four years ago. So we built up an own media house and I can recommend it to all also small and medium sized clubs. There's always a fear of, of much costs, but I can say you can also save money due to synergies, due to transparency and things like that. And how do you frame return on investment, I guess, on. On that in house media capability how do you say it's working or it's not working in what terms? Do you do you judge that? Yeah at the end in terms of monetization, I think the money speaks for itself And that money's coming from sponsors is it sponsors who want? content mainly from sponsors because i'm me personally i'm not a big fan of selling content to fans You But I think that's a topic of, of small clubs. But I think we should provide our fans with, um, behind the scenes like Daniel said. That's the future way. But I think we should take the money from sponsors by involving them in that content, in that customized content. So that, that's interesting. So that last, that bit about charging fans for content. What would that, is that like a paywall around your own? In our club there isn't. Right. That isn't a payroll note, but that's an alternative route. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, maybe just to add, uh, RB Leipzig, obviously we know how tough it is, what Rexim is doing. going from a fifth division club and making that, setting up the professional structures around it and taking it to the next level, I think, first of all, that's super tough and so it's a unique story that they have and that they're leveraging. And I think what makes the documentary so good is that it's super authentic. And I think when we think about club content and sort of what we can bring to the table in an entertainment space, it has to be authentic to us as clubs. So we have to have a lot more flexibility than maybe what a Netflix brings to the table. They have nine months to craft their perfect storylines, to think about sort of where the drama is going to come from. For us, that changes in an instant. On a weekend, sort of, it can be. A great season where it cannot be, and so you have to be extremely flexible when it comes to the storylines that you want to put out, even on a smaller scale. You might have a perfect content piece that you want to do with a player, but then they're not feeling it, and so you have to be ready with two or three other ideas that you can bring to the table, and then also just setting the stage for them to be authentic and create great content, because they're not actors, right? We are working with people who are the most comfortable on the pitch, not in front of a camera. And so it's about figuring out what your own personal story is as, as a club. And I think that, Daniel, you mentioned it, right? It's about being, standing for something more than just winning, because you have to have a story to tell even if you're not. so RB Leipzig is obviously part of a multi club offering. Is this bit of the conversation centralized? By the, the main group. I would say yes and no. So of course we have some core values that, speak to, to us. Uh, we want to play attractive football on pitch and that's something that will resonate with, with New York, with Braganchino as well. But it also will be a little individualized because even if we have some elements to our, our brand as RB Leipzig that, uh, Resonate more strongly across the clubs. We also are in Leipzig and that means something different than being in New York or being in Brazil. And so it's about that aspect of listening to your community, engaging with them and locally, but also then understanding sort of what that means when you go beyond Leipzig. What do you want to do with the fans that maybe aren't able to go to the stadium? So how are you going to engage those? Um, and that's, again, a different story that has to be authentic then to them as well. That going beyond the local marketplace. What's the, goal other than, do you think it's realistic? Just wondering what the, what the diaspora of Malmo or, young boys or Leipzig, what, what is it? How many, and we started talking earlier about big jumps, but is that part of the big jump to try and have a meaningful relationship with the big. diaspora number, or is it just, people like me on podcasts talking about that? I don't know if it's, uh, the numbers that's the most important. I mean, you can do a lot of stuff. I mean, talking about Malmö FF, we are now trying to, to get international. We need to get an international reach to attract bigger brands, not being that local. Everyone here understands English, but I don't think every club is communicating in English. That's one of our goals, to do that, to attract people around the world. I mean, we want to be the club of Scandinavia. We of course want to be a brand out there in Europe. you don't have to reach more people. You need to reach the right people, the people who want to follow you and be a part of the club. And I mean, talking about the, the women's team, we only had a women's team in Malmö for four, for four years. We had girls playing in the club since 2014. That's our next biggest step. And we need to, to take care of that community and communicate with them. in a great way, so they want to follow us. So that's the big step for us in a brand, being a more club working with women's football. If I may add something, um, like you said, it's important to, to target the right people. It's not necessarily our goal to, to find new fans in Europe, or even in the global market, because we are not interested in the internationalization because, yeah, due to our premises. We are focusing on the national or even the regional market. So I think it's more important to get the right content to the right people in our closer market. There's a differentiation question. I mean, it's interesting you mentioned about the role of the women's game is one part of it with, you know, sustainability is another story or, you know, it's, it's a, it's a brand positioning. How do you view that? Cause that's what we're getting at, isn't it? I mean, the content is, is it just a sort of distribution means, but actually what we're getting at is it gets back to the, what is a football club question and why you're making the decisions that you're making in that local market. I mean, everything you do needs to be value based, authentic and transparent. And, uh, talking about what's happening in the world right now, I think the democratization question is very important. And I think maybe that could be, for a smaller club like Malmö FF, a starting point for finding some kind of other, uh, position in Europe. I mean, it's hard for us to compete with, uh, the biggest clubs having, uh, hundreds of millions of followers. We need to do something else. And where I come from, from Sweden, democracy, sustainability, all that is very near to our brand, and we need to use it. And then it's authentic. It's nothing that we try to, to say, and we do, don't do anything, any kind of greenwashing, or pinkwashing, or Stuff like that. You need to be very close to your brand and to try to, to find that position. Uh, so that's why, that's how we're working. Helena, I guess the question there is, is where the values reside? Again, uh, in the specific instance of a multi club, I think it's a really interesting question and whether or not there is a local brand, how much freedom they have to develop and differentiate locally. Or is it, again, it's a, you can't get away, I guess, from the central local question. I don't know if it is actually a question because I think we, I mean, we were founded, we started 15 years ago, right? So we're still very, very young. Um, and I think we all have that sense of, we know what our brand is, whether that's someone working in Leipzig, someone working somewhere else, I don't necessarily think that we need to. We write that story because it's so inherent to all of us, but I think, um, especially to our leadership who obviously have been with us for a really long time as well. And so I don't think there's a big difference. I think for us, we, we function as RB Leipzig very, very well. Um, and we have a strong premise. I don't know whether that necessarily needs to be dictated from somewhere else, but I think that's because we are so in line with who we want to be. There's, it's the club. the ethos, it's always presented to each club, presumably. Is that what they buy into when you sign up to become an RB club? Well, you don't sign up to become an RB club and I think that's the big difference because, a lot of the clubs, especially RB Leipzig, we, we were started basically from the ground up. Um, and so like our players, we don't purchase sort of readily made stars. We want to create them. And that's what I think we've done with, with the club as well. fifth division to now regularly playing Champions League is, I think, somewhat similar to the great players that we, we have at our club at the moment, uh, with Castello, Luqueba, who came in as 20 and is now starting consistently, like Josco, Guardiola, who left us last year to play at City, um, and is regularly starting there. So you don't sort of sign up, but you're, you're, you grow with us. And that's sort of what the club has been like as well. Okay, thank you. Right, we're going to switch to the last group. Thank you very much for your contribution. Round of applause for that group. four is a mop-up group concluding, which features Charlie Marshall, chief executive of the CA Fran Jones, Brentford football club. And Reuben Casper from. And the final group. We've called this big picture, but really this is a sort of response to what you've heard. Charlie, let's, go to you first of all. Just pick out a couple of things that you've heard you think, uh, just interesting we might develop on. Whew. Okay. Um, it's been a really, really interesting And very varied debate, that's for sure, and very well managed, Richard, because that wasn't easy. I think football has come from a world, is coming from a world where it's almost part of the business not to know the fan, because there's always been these, you know, huge intermediaries managing your core product, which is your game, or at least the sort of consumption of your game, who effectively own the customer. This is the rights acquisition model. This is the traditional model of monetizing football. and it's always been the biggest revenue stream. And for, and for clubs, frankly, the sort of easiest commercially, because it comes with sporting success. So focus on the sport, get into the top league and, and, and see what happens with, with, you know, just sort of turn the revenue tap on. So that's obviously changing. It's, it's not changing as fast as I think everybody, uh, thinks it is, because it is such a huge thing to change. But that's what's then sparking the debate and all the discussions we've had today about, well, it's If we need to find another way, then you have to say, well, of all of these people that like and are attracted to and have passion for football or football clubs, what is the product that we can, as clubs, give to them? Is it the football? Is it the club? Is it the brand? And how many are really meaningfully prepared to and want to? be marketed to. How many actually want to spend? You know, football in a football club is not like an FMCG brand where, you know, customers want to go and spend. I suspect that most fans actually do not want to spend. So you've got to be quite sort of niche about all of this, and I think that's, that for me, that's been a lot of the examples that have been given today, is sort of trying to find the The niche areas, trying to find the stories, having a bit of luck along the way, trying to change culture has been a big theme of today, of culture of, of clubs. you know, Johannes didn't need to tell anyone, but probably you all guessed, uh, he, you know, he used to work for Oracle and that, and that, and that, you know, that's the language, Johannes uses the language of a technology company. Clubs are not technology companies. Um, so you've got to change culture inside, but then you've also got to change cultures of fans and have. Have fans be prepared to go on that journey as well? You're trying to, you know, tell a new story as a club. You're trying to do something different as a club. Is that acceptable or is it not? So I'm chucking loads more questions into the mix, but that's some of the things. The culture question is really, really, you know, I think you're right. And you sort of bump into it all the time. I, I wonder if actually it's possible to change culture. I wondered the same thing. I wonder the same thing. But again, you know, the fan is not a singular and identifiable entity, right? Fans are amorphous, diverse groups of people and this sort of, this search for segmentation, this search for, you know, who's prepared to come on a particular journey with me and who's not? And how do we actually make all of that work within the ecosystem of a football club? Because as a club, you can't tell a fan what to be. You have to respond to what the fan is. Friend, there's a question Charlie just mentioned something interesting there about the fans don't want to spend, and there's a bit of me that I think he's right there, but then there are other fans who really, really want to spend money. So it's balancing, your job then to balance that equation is quite a tricky one. Yeah, I think I'd say we are in such a unique and privileged industry. Fans. They want to be as close to the club as they can get. They are desperate to be on the inside. The content group we're talking about behind the scenes, content as being, you know, rich that people really want to engage with, and I would agree with that. Fans want to be as close as they can get, and if that requires them spending money, a good portion of them will do that. Whether or not you should charge them for that, I think, is a healthy debate to have. But they want to be close. So, uh, the, the data group we're talking about, the fact that actually fans are very happy to share their data. And I, and I see that on an increasingly, uh, growing basis, you know, fans actually want you to know what your preferences are, what your behaviors are so that they can have a better experience and you can market products and services to them that they actually are interested in buying. I think that's the key bit in terms of it's the value exchange, isn't it? In terms of whether or not I'm going to. I'm not, I don't want my data, you know, I've just bought a fridge. The internet is going to try and sell me a fridge next for the next six months. Okay. Do you want a fridge? Just bought a fridge. I don't want another fridge. Okay. Stop talking about fridges. Quite often the promise of personalization runs into the sort of grubby reality of actually, it's not very good in terms of the service that you get back. Let let's, or, you know, I don't think anybody in this room is under any illusions. A data strategy, personalization at scale is a holy grail. And, and we're all striving to reach that, that objective. It's very, very hard to do. It costs a lot of money. Uh, Seb was talking about bringing some of those services in house versus outsourcing. Kat likewise talked about actually, you know, not having a budget to spend on consultancies. These things are incredibly expensive and they take a lot of time and you have to fail a lot. before you start to get it right. But if you can get it right, you can start to really drive incremental value because you are then serving the needs of your fans, you're giving them services that they are interested in, and the value exchange becomes much more authentic. And I think that's the key, is driving authenticity around the services you provide to the culture of the, of the fans that you have. And the culture comes from the community. Because actually these clubs. Most of them have been around for hundreds of years and that culture was actually formed at the beginning and it's been built upon by the fans as they've gone through times, good times and bad times. The culture of my fan base is very, very unique. The culture of my previous job was very different and you're part of that group. And so recognizing that those cultures are very different and to Anna's point, it absolutely then speaking authentically to them, making sure that you actually mirror and reflect the culture that is around you in the way that you run your business. Yeah. Reuben, Stuttgart having a great season. I'm wondering what the, what difference that makes. Before I come to the answer, what I really like in this discussion is the transparency and you see and hear that we all have the same topics, all have the same problems, and at the end it's, we should analyze the needs of our ecosystems regionally, politically, economically, and then find your niche. As you said, I think that's the most important thing. Is it international business? Why should Malmo do international business? I think you have a strategy. Why should Stuttgart do it? Not everybody needs international business. Some need to focus on your region. Because there is no need. Nobody is interested to go abroad. Not because all are doing international business. I should also do it. No. Analyze your needs. Analyze your fans, partners, your customers, and then have a strategy On both sides. Right. It's a brilliant point. And we'll park the initial question that I asked you, but I want to pick up on something you just said, how to manage that so pooling of data, is that what you're talking about? So if, if everyone in this room agrees, you've all got pockets of data of football fans, which individually is worth something, but en masse is worth a lot more. How do we go from that? Do you think that's possible? Do you think pooling of data, football data? I don't know if it would be on a league basis, it might be a Absolutely. I think every club has different target groups and fans. You have this business focused manager, he wants to be, he wants to consume you via LinkedIn, not via TikTok. And you have the Gen Z, they're not interested in this business thing, structure, politics, they want to have cool stuff. And this is, you have the same for, for merchandise. You wanna have stylish, collections with a proudness for the region, as an example. But others, they just wanna have the logo. So you need to analyze the needs, different target groups. And this is something which is really missing, I think, in almost all the clubs that you have an intelligence in your club, in your database, which you can then, monetize. And that's something the whole industry is talking the whole time about But not many are doing it in the right way. And I liked what uh, Johannes was saying with this Cilo thinking. Yeah, we have the same I think every Everybody here in the room has different departments and they all have their own CRM system And that's something there. You need to start there. You need to consolidate your whole system Before you then monetize it I think that this is a really good topic to kind of land on because it's a really good example also of the, culture point and, you know, culture, eat strategy for breakfast in a, in a sort of purely rational world, strategically speaking, you have football, which is a very, very fragmented market. The football clubs are fragmented by design. They're fragmented because of the sport. There are so, so many of them. And the vast majority of them are quite small businesses. Vast majority. So there is no economic sense whatsoever in hundreds and hundreds of small businesses all trying to build their own quite sophisticated data strategies and the technology systems that support those data strategies. Don't make any sense. Any fragmentation characteristics of football There would be outsourcing, there would be consolidation, there would be pooling of, common, problems, challenges, resources, to, drive down costs and increase efficiencies, but that, you know, that's a very, odd conversation to have in football, because the culture isn't quite there, and, and whether it will even get there or not is a genuine question. But we have the same discussion as well around sporting data, not just around fan data, but around sporting data. The value of sporting data is, is tremendous to clubs, I mean absolutely huge. But again, it's very expensive to get right. If you go to to a group of clubs and say you're happy to pool your sporting data, it'll be anonymized. Don't worry, there'll be no competitive disadvantage to you, but it will be, it will be lower cost. It will become more efficient and more smart over time. It's still a really difficult question. conversation to have. I do believe that if, we can be much clearer about what kind of data is not the sort of competitive advantage data, and, and what kind of data is, if you can draw that line, you say there's a whole load of stuff here that actually can be pulled, can be, you know, outsourced or, or consolidated, as long as we can retain the bit at the top, which is about our, you know, competitive advantage. If we can define that a bit better, we might make some progress. So Fran, your club has almost differentiated itself by data. You, you and Brighton in the UK, I mean it's of a UK point, but that's what people go to straight away. Oh, I want to be a bit more like Brentford because they've cracked the data code. They've got the betting guy at the top, he's got a super brain and he's, he's worked it through and this is going to happen. this question of competitive? and uncompetitive data what do you think? Well, firstly, we're very proud of the business that we've built and, the processes that we've, we've been able to bring and actually the value we've been able to create as a consequence and obviously drive the team up the leagues into, into the Premier League. There is a big difference, I think, between sporting data and perhaps business data. I think. Shared services amongst clubs is a real opportunity. It astonishes me. I've been in this game 25 years. I still can't believe that there isn't more aggregated services across like minded clubs. And I think, it's something that the ECA is pushing forward as a strong agenda and I welcome that. I think there's lots of opportunity for us to save money, be more efficient and get better results. On the sporting side, of course, this is where marginal gains comes in, and this is where competition is, is the thing that we're all striving to achieve. We all want to win, and in some cases, by any means necessary. Um, and there's a fear, of course, understandably, of sharing too much, and giving away the crown jewels, or sharing too many secrets. So, uh, Charlie's right, there needs to be a line drawn, where you are happy to share some, and happy to Not share some, um, and, uh, no, we've done a very good job so far. We haven't cracked it, Richard. I would say it's an ever evolving landscape because there's an arms race on data, particularly as it relates to player recruitment. we've done a very good job so far, but no, trust me, everyone else is trying to do the same thing and competition drives performance. So no, we, we take that challenge and we look at it head on and we think, okay, we'll How do we do better? I mean, our strategy is very much about outsmarting, not outspending the opposition. Uh, so we have to continue to invest in innovation, think differently, think better. And you asked earlier about giant leaps, you know, winning is always the same. Can you be smarter and work harder than your competitors? It comes down to that. So, so just on a, just again, just before I ask questions. What's the most important hire, then, for a club? Sounds like it's the performance data person. That, if you can find someone who's got an advantage in that space, then you're doing well, aren't you? Well, I think, every club is different. Manchester City might argue that their best hire was Pep Guardiola. I wouldn't disagree with that. Other clubs would argue that their head of player recruitment was Pep Guardiola. Liverpool have done a very good job on recruitment over the last decade, for example. So I think it depends on each club and where they are in their cycle. on our side, sporting, you know, our business model is very much about finding and identifying players who are perhaps undervalued, but are performing at a high level, bringing them in, growing them, and then selling them on later so that we can reinvest in the team and keep the team moving up. So one would argue that the person leading that part of the business is absolutely critical to our business model. But that won't be the same at other, other clubs. Maybe the most important hire is the head of HR, the head of recruit, the head of people. You know, people who can actually identify the best talent because I think this is coming through really strong generally at the moment. We have a lot of discussions, a lot of, difference of opinion about, about the effect of. investment and cost and financial regulations in sport right now. And there's a sort of default assumption behind all of that, that, you know, he who spends the most wins, but actually it's money that drives success. I don't think it is. I think it's how you spend that money. You have to spend it smartly. We won't reel off all the examples of who spends money well and who doesn't, but it's gotta be how you spend it and how you invest and getting the right people with the right. processes and technologies and insights is absolutely critical, whether it's sporting or commercial. I'm with you. Not money is driving success. People are driving success. And this is something besides data analysis and customize of content. We all here in this room should remember that we are a brand ambassador of our city, of our region, that we are a cultural good. And having this in your storytelling makes you even bigger, not just talking about reach and digital business. That's needed in the everyday's argumentation. But at the end, we have something bigger. We are so meaningful and this whole reach in the whole city, we can move people, thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people we can move. And this is our argumentation which with which you can make a bigger step in revenue and everything than just with the database. I can give you an example from our club. We have now a second shareholder beside Mercedes. We brought in Porsche after being relegated two times into second division. This was not in the argumentation so attractive for a world company like Porsche investing into the club. No, it's about the reach and what you can deliver, how, how you can bring in, um, social responsibility, how we can move. Big big things for the whole city and the region. I think this we should all integrate into our daily story For making our revenue potentials bigger okay, right, we are done. First of all, thanks very much for your time and I hope you enjoyed it. There are more questions than answers. I wasn't expecting there to be an answer to the big transformative question, but I like the way that the, uh, the conversation evolved. I really want to thank each of the panelists for getting involved and for being good sports in terms of, just contributing to what I hope is a enjoyable session. But in the meantime, let's thank the last panel. So that was it. Eh, Very enjoyable hour or so on stage in Madrid at ECA connect the a conference for European club football. And if you need to know anything about what happened and more about the conference, we'll put some links in the show notes to the podcast, but in the meantime, Thanks very much for your time and we'll see you again soon.