UP485 Other People's Money: Venture Studios and a European Sports Investment Fund

 Other People's Money is our series on sport and finance, with regular co-host Matt Rogan. 

Today's guest is Danny Menken, who many people in the industry will remember as the managing director of Eurosport Television.

He was also chief exec of Infosrada Sports Group and held senior executive positions within Eleven Sports.

More recently though, Danny co-founded Ve2.Ventures, a sports focused venture studio, There's also talk about a European sports investment fund. 

If the finance conversation is interesting to you, then there's a whole load of previous episodes of Other People's Money in the Unofficial Partner archive. 

This episode of Unofficial Partner is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery and a culture of marketing effectiveness. 

We've got to know the team over the last few months. They're an impressive bunch who believe that sports marketing can and should be done better. They've got a creative philosophy of producing famous campaigns and activations that build buzz and conversation  in a category that too often looks and sounds the same.
 And they're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing using econometrics and attribution models to go beyond traditional media ROI. So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, get in touch with the team at Sid Lee Sport, where brands become champions.

Unofficial Partner is the leading podcast for the business of sport. A mix of entertaining and thought provoking conversations with a who's who of the global industry.
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Transcript

Unofficial Partner - Other People's Money

 
Hello there. Welcome. It's Richard Gillis here and it's Unofficial Partner, and today it's Other People's Money, which is our series on sport and finance, with my regular co-host Matt Rogan. So today's guest is Danny Menken, who many people in the industry will remember as the managing director of Eurosport Television.

He was also chief exec of Infrast Strata Sports Group and held very senior executive positions within 11 sports.

More recently though, and the reason that we've got him on is that we wanna talk about investment and the investment landscape. So Danny is co-founder and a partner of V two Ventures, which is a venture studio, and we find out what that means. And there's also talk about a European sports fund. And as you'll hear, we uh, talk through that and I've got my usual list of idiot questions when it comes to, uh, finance and money. But, uh, it's an interesting conversation 'cause it's one that covers a whole load of ground, lots of different sports under the portfolio of V two ventures and across Danny's various businesses.

and if the finance conversation is interesting to you, then there's a whole load of previous episodes of other people's money. Just search Unofficial Partner wherever you get your podcasts.

This episode of Unofficial Partner is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is a new breed of agency that combines world class creativity with deep sponsorship expertise, flawless operational delivery.

And a culture of marketing effectiveness. We've got to know the team over the last few months. They're an impressive bunch who believe that sports marketing can and should be done better. They've got a creative philosophy of producing famous campaigns and activations that build buzz and conversation  in a category that too often looks and sounds the same.

 And they're pioneering a new standard of effectiveness in sports marketing using econometrics and attribution models to go beyond traditional media, ROI. So if you're looking for an agency to take your brand to the top, get in touch with the team at Sid Lee Sport where brands become champions. 📍   

Let's start with what you do all day, Danny. ' So it's other people's money and it's looking at , where the money comes from, how that changes people's behaviors, what happens when money comes in the room, where the sources are. And we'll get into what you're up to, but just, just paint a picture for us.

first of all, over the last couple of years , I've been founding and, and investing in, in quite a lot of. Different, uh, sports assets. and that also means that, that my day is, is, I mean, it's never the same. Uh, and, uh, definitely never a dull moment. Um. And, uh, I, first of all, I don't, I try to, to stay out of really operational stuff because that, that soaks time and energy.

Uh, and, and I'm much better at the, uh, at, at a higher level.

is really

So,

stuff, isn't it?

uh, no, I, I, I really like.

from the execution. Sounds like a good idea. I.

I, I've, I've done a lot of execution in my, uh, in my career. But, um, uh, I'm now at a point where I really prefer to, to stay at the strategic level, um, uh, ensuring that we, get the right assets on boards, uh, that we build the right teams, that we do, we do the right partnerships and, uh, that we create the right strategy going forward.

And

But this is.

we, it's V two Ventures, is that right?

Yeah, that's one of the assets. Um, so, uh, together with a couple of partners, uh, I co-founded uh, fi two Ventures, uh, about two years ago. Fi Two Ventures is a, uh, a venture building studio. So we built, uh, sport and media related digital ventures. Uh, and when I say we built means that we literally do everything in-house.

So, uh, from ideation, creation, uh, to, uh, to go to market and, and potentially, uh, even exit. So we have, uh, all the people in house, software, developers, hardware, firmware, uh, creatives, uh, go-to market specialists, et cetera. So we now have 22 ventures on their needs. Um, and, uh, yeah, that is, that it's, it's. It's, it has really got gone very well, and, and it's exploding and we have a lot of interest, uh, from, from, yeah.

Uh, uh, third parties.

So just explain to me then how that works. 'cause so. When you say you are building, are these your ideas that you are just, you are floating in-house

Yes. Yeah. So.

get external finance for.

Uh, I mean, most of it we financed ourselves, um, from the 22 ventures, approximately half our own IDs. So, which we really developed from IDs still till ventures, uh, and which we are, are now, um, uh, marketing and monetizing. Um, then, uh, around seven-ish are, um, um, uh, startups or scale ups where we.

Yeah, where we formed a joint venture and we have majority, uh, so still full control and a couple are minority shareholdings where we are still in charge of development, et cetera. So yeah, more or less we are in, in control of, uh, of, of all the ventures.

So just give us an example of, of couple of the ventures. So I, again, I've got paddle there. I can see Portuguese football there. I can see a whole mix of different things. Go. Gimme

Yeah.

of the two more, you know, two or three of them.

Yeah. So we have pedal play, which is a, um. Uh, venture where we have developed a, uh, a sensor technology for, for padel and, and pedal being the, one of the fastest growing sports, uh, globally. Um, so with the sensor, you can put it underneath your records, uh, and it actually measures all your performance data.

So first of all, it gives you feedback on how to improve your game. Eh, what do you need to change in order to have a, a better bandha or foreign or whatever? That's the first thing. Second thing is, uh, you can compare data with your peers. Yeah. So Pedal is everyone who plays pedal is quite competitive. Um, so after the game you can compare with each other who really was the best player.

So that's the second thing. And, and the third thing is fan engagement. So within our group, for example, uh uh, we also have Sport Works, which is a company. Organizing, uh, uh, sport events all around the world. Uh, one of the, um, yeah, uh, one of the, uh, events we, we own is Pedal coppa. Um, and this year U Track in a couple of year, a couple of weeks time.

Uh, the players will also play with the, uh, with the Pedal Place sensor, uh, on the records and on screens in the stadium. We can show what is really happening there so we can visualize the data. This can also be used obviously for broadcast feeds in order to, to really engage the fence. Uh, if you watch Formula One or cycling, you're much more engaged when you have the data visualization there.

So we do the same for, for Pedal. And actually at the moment there is the, uh, the World Pedal Summit, uh, in, uh, in Barcelona, one of the bigger, biggest, uh, pedal conferences. And, uh, with pedal play, we were chosen as one of the, I think three or five, uh, uh, most, uh, um, uh, promising startups in the pedal industry.

So we are there with a team and, uh, trying to, to get some exposure and to do some deals.

So I've got a question about. Uh, paddle just specifically before we move on to anything broader.

Yeah.

we were in Lausanne a couple of weeks ago, and this is Unofficial. Pardon? Not Matt. We didn't, we didn't take Matt that time. We just, we just, you know,

I'm doing the executional stuff at this

he's on the coalface. But I was there and one of the questions, and it was the sort of, um, you know, it was an event, the SPOT conference and there was a lot of federations in the room, Olympic Lausanne federations, I said something and afterwards people will either. Agreeing or very, very much disagreeing with this statement that trying to work out what paddle is in relation to tennis and it's a sort of friend, enemy, frenemy relationship. There's a lot of people and if you are the International Tennis Federation or if you are the LTA or if you are, you know, an organization that's got tennis in your name, they look at it as a sort of funnel. Thing. So that paddle being a top of funnel product for tennis, which is the real game, you are moving people down.

Yeah.

that you are in Paddle as an investment and you know it's a commercial thing. You go to other places that are looking as a lot of money pouring into Paddle. I wonder if they view that in the same way.

How do you view Pado in its relationship to tennis? Because politically I can see. Organizations and governing bodies want to own it for the numbers and they can, you know, attribute, but

Yeah,

what do you see?

no, I think, uh, so I've, I've been active in the pedal industry for the last 10 years. Um, I really see Pedal as a friend of tennis, definitely not an enemy. Um, what you see is that. A lot of people who play pedal, uh, are eventually also going to play tennis again and vice versa. I think it creates a very nice ecosystem.

And, uh, in the Netherlands, for example, the Dutch Tennis Federation has, uh, has been a very early adopter of, uh, of pedal and it has been super positive for them because they have been one of the few national tennis federations globally who sh who showed, um, uh, significant growth. So for me, uh, if National Tennis federations don't, uh, adopt, uh, pedal, uh,, it's a negative way down.

Matt, what do you think about that? 'cause you are, you are a, how would you describe your relationship with tennis? 'cause I've, I've, you've told me about what, what Danny was saying about data. You were talking to me about your tennis. Racket at one point, I'm sure.

yeah, for sure. So I, I've played tennis all my life until months ago when I got injured, but I'll be back. and I do notice. Um, a lot of people playing paddle in two specific circumstances in the UK as a, as a game in and of itself, which is particularly useful for time compressed. People haven't played a lot of tennis growing up. a tricky game to learn late tennis and paddle's a lovely entry point to it. And

Yep.

coming out the other end of a tennis career for whom. You know, probably around my age, jumping up and down on a concrete court that's quite big and running around isn't too good for your hips,

Yeah.

speaking entirely personally. So it definitely fills a space in the racket sport market in a, in a really nice and coherent way. And ultimately I think it's a really similar conversation to, sorry to go back to Cricket Danny, but. You know, is there a place for T 20 Cricket or hundreds and test matches,

Yep.

of hitting a ball with two bits of wood at each end, there must be an opportunity for both to, to target a bigger market.

The governance model around it is, is obviously up for discussion. In the same way there's discussions around should the baseball authorities in the states run softball, you know, that's, that's sort

Yeah.

market ultimately dictates the way in which that should be delivered. I'm, I'm wondering actually, you know, if paddle's a gateway. And I hate, I don't want to use the word gateway drug, but gateway into tennis. I, is that the same for you, Danny, with the organization that you're building? Insofar as you know, you prove the model works in a growing pit of the market. You get product market fit, you show you can drive revenue and profit, and ultimately any other racket infrastructure business is, is the next Portas call.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It does.

There's a.

back to, I'll come back to cricket then. So stick two cameras on each end. Put some infrastructure on the bat. It's your neg, it's your route into the Indian market. We'll cover that later. Rich, over to you.

Well, I think there's a, there's a reason for bringing it up because you just use paddle as a way into the investment question in terms of

Yeah.

whether the, so the presence of the tennis federations, the fact that it's in the tennis infrastructure officially, is that a a good story for the investment community to hear?

But, uh, do you mean that it's part of, for example, of the Dutch Tennis Federation? Is that what, because it's not part of the ITFI think. I think ITF really missed, uh, missed something there. Uh, they should have adopted, uh, pedal years ago. So internationally it's the fip, the International Pedal Federation.

Which is a complete separate body from, from ITF has nothing to do with each other. So for example, the, the Dutch Dentist Federation is a member of the ITF and is a member of the fip.



Okay, you, I interrupted you. I jumped in on a paddle conversation, so the breadth of the, portfolio. What other things have you got in there in addition to the paddle product?

Yeah, we have, for example, uh, fly Foot, which is a, uh, company combining, uh, drone technology with computer vision and ai. Uh, it's, it's now focusing on, uh, on football. Uh, so it's used mainly for life, uh, analysis of, uh, of trainings. Uh, so, um, uh, more than half of the La Liga clubs, uh, including Barcelona are using it and, and other, uh, big international clubs are, are, are using it.

Um, we are now, we have been asked by one of the clubs with a, uh, with a big basketball team, uh, to also, uh, uh, yeah, enable it, uh, to be used for, for that basketball team. So we are now moving into, into new sports, uh, which is also. Yeah. Great for us because it, it, it will enhance our, the whole ecosystem we are building.

And I guess if I could build on that, Danny. You know, you also have a, a, a football club

Yeah.

right.

Yeah.

infrastructure as well. So we're, we're ticking all the, sort of stereotypical boxes of investment in sport. Now we've got a sport asset, we've got paddle, we've mentioned AI and machine learning. Uh, and we've mentioned drones too. So the football club, I'm imagining the natural extension there is to use the training products in the league in which that operates to get a step ahead. Right.

Exactly.

and. And so the investment hypothesis for I, my understanding is Portuguese non-league football club, um, is, is what is talent development and sports science.

Is that the, what, what's at the number of that one?

Sorry, can, can you repeat that?

So, so what's at the, the heart of that investment in the football club? Is it, there's a use case for all the other technology? Is it,

Yeah,

talent trading and brand? Like what's

no, it's, it, it's a combination of, uh, so obviously for us, it's a great testing ground for, for our other, for our technology fan engagement, uh, solutions, uh, et cetera. Um, but why we we're talking about GDS Kakas, which is the football club in, uh, Kakas in Portugal, which is a lower league, uh, club for us.

This is mainly, uh, a, a brand play because we really believe, I mean, KA skis is a, is a super, uh, well-known, uh, brand, super well-known city. It's beautifully located at the beach, at the stadium is literally two. 200 meters from the, from the beach. Um, so, um, so it's, it's, it's like they're doing with Como or, uh, with cia, et cetera.

And, and, and Portugal has been, yeah. Uh, a lot of the Americans have been investing in, in, in Italian clubs of the last couple of years. Um, I think Portugal is. It's still undervalued. Uh, and it's, you will see a significant growth here in the, the next couple of years. But the funny thing is, we are also with the club.

We are, uh, developing new innovative revenue streams. So we have, for example, with one of our other, uh, ventures, which is a sport travel agency, we have developed the, um, uh, play like a pro program for Cascades. Uh, focusing mainly on, on on Americans and Asians who really want to learn to play professional, uh, or to, to, to play football in a professional way so they can come for three, six or nine months.

Nine months is $50,000. They get housing in the skies and every day they train with, with top coaches who have been training, uh, Benfica or sporting before. If they're really good, uh, they might end up playing, uh, one of our Sunday, uh, games. Uh, but this is already, uh, a significant new revenue stream. I would actually say that the largest re revenue stream we have.

So just talk me through this then. So this is a, this is a travel company with a sort of football academy. how many.

Yep.

It's a version of the sort of American college football scholarship type thing. Is it or a

Yeah. Yeah. You can see it a bit like that. Yeah. You, but, but it's,

of 'em become professional players?

we just started with it last year, so I, I can't give any numbers there. Last year we started very low key this year. We are now, uh, we started to, to market it and, uh, I think next year we will have the, the first real results on this, but it's super promising.

Good. See if that had existed in our day, rich, the world would've been a different place.

for me, it wouldn't.

Uh, and what, what does that look like operationally, Danny? So you have all sorts of different businesses where, uh, in my head, it, it feels like I, I know it's venture, but it feels like a bit of a holding company where I'm imagining your job is just getting the right skills to support the right businesses at the right time, sure that you're sort of managing your portfolio of internal office skills in the right way.

Is that

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Most important is, uh, is getting the, the right people at the, at the helm of the, of the ventures because that their sole responsibility, eh, we always, if a venture is in a certain stage, we will put a dedicated MD on it who will build his own team and. Yeah, well actually he will. Yes. One task is to, to run and grow the company

So how many people do you, is is in the company, is in your company?

now. So I have various companies, uh, but uh, if we talk about the Venture Studio, we now have 40, 50 people at Venture Studio level. And then, uh, at all the ventures, we have people as well. So, uh, probably, uh. 80, 80, 90 people in total. I don't, I don't even know. They're the, they're the total number

So it's, and how many of you are you actually directly investing in, and how many of those are I, I'm trying to work out whether you're an operational business or a mixture of a to, to Matt's question. A venture capital business or how does

with the Venture Studio. No. So we are a venture building, uh, studio. So we are. Fully operational operationally involved. And we, we provide capital, uh, both from the venture studio, uh, level, and we also raise capital at venture level. So, uh, we have at, at every venture we have, uh, also, uh, uh, investors from, uh, external investors.

I think it's really interesting if you think about that as a model compared to how a sport might traditionally have done the venture space, which is typically to write a check and put somebody on the board. If it's a case of a generic investor that just venture of a capitalist that just happens to be putting some money on sport and be relatively arm's length and sometimes almost just take over too much, like to the extent of, of not letting the operational team running the p and l have any room at all. So it feels like you're trying to get a bit of a balance between that with local management and then pushing in the right expertise at the right time in areas that don't make sense to them to hire. Individually, so it wouldn't make sense for ka CAEs to start experimenting with drone technology, filming training or a

Yeah.

studio to build their new shirt or whatever

Yeah.

They're the, the sort of specific points where you intervene and I'm guessing at your top team level then, you know, you need finance professionals and people, professionals, and yourself probably as the, as the sort of key bits of the jigsaw. Is that right?

Yeah. And, top uh, developers, top product people. Um, we have a, a, a go-to market specialist, uh, who has who, who just came back from 15 years in Silicon Valley, uh, being responsible for, for, um, uh, for growth strategies, for, uh, for various big, uh, big companies. So, I mean, we work with the best people and this is also why we are able to, to perform so well.

And again, of the, the 22 organizations, I mean, are they, um, how many of 'em are sort of profitable or are are you looking at future revenues?

No, it depends. Uh, some are really early stage, uh, but we also have a couple, uh, which, uh, are over a couple of million, uh, uh, revenues already and, and are profitable. So it depends. It's, uh, we are in various stages.

And how does that, feel to you as a person? So what we didn't talk about too much was your, was your background and you've run Europe, being MD of Euro sport in a large part of Europe. So you have a skillset that can handle the growth to the next point. So how are you think about handling, you know, you're two years old, let's say three, four years time. Traditionally, for a venture studio, it would be time to wave goodbye to the business. You know, your job was done, the numbers are great. You've proved the market. I. Um, is your sense that you'll then look to pass the business's on, or have you got something up your sleeve in terms of, oh, that's a great business.

I love my paddle. I'm not letting go of that.

No. So I'm actually in the process of setting up a, uh, a European sport investment fund at scale where, uh, we will bring in a lot of the, of the assets. Uh, we are, uh, buying new assets. Um, and in a couple of years time we want to be 500 million plus funds. Um. It's, it's an evergreen, so it means permanent capital and, and no, uh, no time horizon.

Traditional PE does 10 to 12 years. We believe that that is completely disaligned with the, the dynamics in the sports, uh, industry. So for me, uh, we are, it's more or less building a conglomerate, um, uh, without any. Yeah. Any, any pressure on exit or whatsoever? I mean,

To, to,

maybe, maybe some ventures we did for 20 years.

I mean, uh.

just talk to me about this, uh, this phrase permanent capital. What does that mean? Because we've had patient capital on this podcast before, but permanent capital is what?

Permanent capital is so traditional. Private equity, uh, has a 10 to 12 year time horizon, so they. They raised capital, they invested in, in assets, mainly separate assets. Uh, try to optimize, uh, each of them and then before the, the 10 to 12 years, uh, exit, uh, and then close the fund. And then in the meantime they start a new fund.

I. With permanent capital, uh, you're actually continuously growing your, uh, your fund size, uh, without having any, uh, obligation to, uh, to sell off, to exit, uh, in on venture. So as long as we believe that that assets are creating value, that we are able to, to create value for the assets, we will keep them in the ecosystem.

So it's, it's a full ecosystem play. Where we, we focus on sports IP and, and companies around it, uh, enabling to monetize the ip.

So who, whose money, I mean this is other people's money is the podcast, but whose money is it that you are buying the assets with and why do

So it's,

wanna return is the

it's, it's, it's our own money. Uh, and we're also raising, uh, with, uh, high net worth individuals and family offices. And then n next step, uh, will be institutional, but that will probably be next year, a year after.

That just, and

I.

again, I'm fascinated by this. Sorry, did, but permanent cap explain? I, I'm trying to work out what is the return on permanent capital, I guess is my question.

So actually what you do a couple of times a year, you, um, uh, you calculate enough a net asset value, meaning. And the valuation of the companies and obviously the, uh, the, the liquidity you have in house, that's, that's the total value of the, of the fund or of the conglomerates. People have a share in that.

See it as, as you have a, uh, you have equity in a, in a company and there's always a lockup period, but after the lockup periods, you, investors, LPs are able to, to sell. Bart. or their full equity.

Okay, so I guess it, it feels a little bit like funds in the states that are buying minority shares of some of the sports franchises, uh, and are understanding that some might come or go and they're stake in is, is that a similar structure? Some might come or go, but ultimately they can choose to, sort of release their share in that fund as and when they wish.

yeah, I think, I think that's, uh. Uh, that sounds a bit similar.

Okay. Oh, I dunno the details. So it was a very top line question to be fair.

But

Yeah.

case, but Matt, in that case, you're buying in, you know, an NBA franchise, a minority partnership, you know, and it's a sort of ocean. Front property analogy, isn't it? That, that there's only so many that people want. There's always gonna be a demand for it. I, I just don't see that in the portfolio that you're, I'm just trying to work my head around what the model is.

I, I, I, I'm not being, I don't, I'm being dense, but I'm just trying to work out why I would invest in this.

I, I guess you're looking at, I mean, Claire, my wife has, um, has done similar things in her venture backgrounds. Uh, Danny, you'll remember Claire from formalized where we, where we crossed.

Yeah.

uh, and I guess in that environment it's the case. You know, every investment that she made, she had stakes in, and then it was effectively a portfolio that she ran, but it was run individual businesses.

So at some point she'd make, um, one of them would exit and she'd get a, she, she'd get a check as a result of that. I guess this is just, you know, investing in the whole organization and then at some point, if you choose, you bought into the organization at a net asset value of 500 million pounds. It's had a really good couple of years and it's turned into a billion pounds.

You can choose to exit at that point as an individual investor, but the fund keeps rolling.

Exactly.

having shares in some ways.

Exactly. That's it. That's it. That's exactly it. And the good thing is, is sport is really a new asset class. And, um, uh, uh, it, it's, uh, there's a lot of demand now from, uh, from investors. However, there's no. European sport investment fund at scale at the moment. Obviously you have the big ones like CVC, but sport is, is not their sole focus.

It's, it's one of the things they do. Um, and, and you have all the American, uh, private equity funds who are, who, who are investing, who started investing in European sports over the last couple of years.

So a European sports investment fund, is that made up of. European money or is that what makes it, is it the what you are buying makes it European or is it

Y

coming in can come from anywhere?

money can come in from anywhere, but what we see now is that a lot of Europeans, uh, withdraw their money from, uh, US assets and are looking for, for European assets. Uh, so definitely, uh, majority of our LPs will be, uh, European based. That's the first thing. The second thing is it's European rooted, so headquarters in Europe, uh, with people who understand the European sports market and its dynamics very well.

That's different when. You are an American private equity fund, and, and most of them look at it from an American point of view, which is obviously not the right, right way to unlock value in, uh, in European sports. So I think that is, that is the most important. And also the assets will be mainly European focused, uh, or European based, but with a global, um, um, a global fan base and, and, and sometimes global operations.

I think it's really interesting actually in, if I think back to two circle stage, you know, where did we look for for inspiration in other sectors in terms of. The data, digital content, monetization, all the, the space that we played in, um, I'd have probably said the, the top two markets that I paid attention to and went to to learn was Holland and Australia.

It

Yeah.

the states at all because the way America was both developed, but that also made it slightly entrenched in the way in which it operated, and

Yeah,

lot more, um, innovation, agility and things in the, in the Dutch and Australian markets and, and many sectors. I think that's still true, actually.

So in

that question about, sport as an asset class gets, you know, is is something that people. Quite often referenced when they come on the podcast, and I've, you know, the, the counter view is that sport is a context. I mean, I'm just trying to link together the, the 22 organizations that you've got under the bonnet.

They are, sport is a sort of context, but actually the expertise or the, I can see some shared expertise, but between paddler and a football club and an MMA product or a tech platform. At, at what point does sport become an asset class and what point does it actually, it's just a series of individual companies and whether the sport

I would, I, I, I think.

red herring.

Let me tell you the, the bigger story because you're now focusing on the venture studio, which are in the 2022 ventures. But we also have other assets, uh, as I mentioned, sport works where we, we organize queen and king of the court, beach volleyball all around the world in our own urban pop-up arenas.

So we built stadiums and city centers all around the world, uh, where we organize live events at Queen of King of the Court beats volleyball. Battle coppa, uh, boxing, MMA, uh, four or five sites, football, uh, three times three basketball. So it's really a, a sport festival. And what you see that this is very appealing for, uh, for cities, uh, for city marketing, uh, uh, for their inhabitants.

Um, so there's, there's a huge demand for this and we, again, we organize this all around the world. So this year. We already did Tanif. We're going to do London, uh, ure, we just did Hamburg, uh, probably will be, uh, Doha, Dubai, Miami, LA maybe Paris. And there are many cities on the, on the list who want us, uh, to come there as well.

And what you see is that sports and, and entertainment and especially the mix is becoming more and more relevant, especially for the younger generations. Um, and now with, uh, um, um, bill Gates said it a couple of, uh, a couple of weeks ago. He believes that the, uh, the, uh, 40 hour work week will go back to a 16 hour work week because of ai.

That won't happen in the next couple of years. But let's say that instead of a five day, you have a four day work week in, in two, three years time, that means that you have 50% more time to spend. So what are you going to do? Uh, you're not going to watch Netflix for another day.

Eh? You go out, you go, uh, exercising, uh, you go, you want to be entertained, you go to to events. So I really believe that, uh, that live entertainment, live events, sport events, uh, will see a significant growth over the next couple of years. So this is, this is, uh, well, as I mentioned, sport IP at the core, and then we have a lot of companies, including the companies in the Venture studio.

Enabling us to monetize, to monetize, uh, those rights. So we also have a ticketing platform, uh, blockchain based with dynamic qr, uh, codes and, and, and a reseller, uh, platform. Uh, we have fan engagement tools, uh, et cetera.

So in, in that context, actually running, I was looking at your portfolio, I was thinking, okay, event management, um, and to sort of hosting a large event. I can see why that's growing. You believe any of the predictions that's gonna grow, disproportionate to the market. But I was thinking that that can't have quite the. Kind of four or five times in two years type exit, sort of multiple, some of your other venture businesses might have. But it sounds like that's almost the point. You have a, know, fail or succeed fast venture proposition. You have some kind of longer term investments that exist on, and large investments that exist on sort of ride the, the. Gradual trajectory of the market. And then you have some things like, like human combat's been around for the, since the dawn, a time. You take a newer space in human combat with m and a and ultimately, I dunno what you're gonna call it, but you sort of got the Danny Menken investment portfolio there really where you have some, like anyone's investment portfolios, you have some fast growth stuff, some more stable side growth, but ultimately it's all predicated on market, growing, evolving, and changing.

I've

yeah,

right.

yeah, exactly.

So what's it like? What, what's the difference? Right? So, so you find yourself pitching to venture investors, maybe if they're co invested with you on an idea. I'm guessing you, you know, you've done that a lot now, you've already, , entered, , a number of investments. How do you find it different? Pitching to a high net worth investor? for the next bit of your journey or even a family fund. 'cause I've been in family funds that, you know, take you a, giving you a cup of tea, quintessentially English in the morning, and also really corporate ones,

Yep.

net worth individuals who want to be super involved and wanna use, you wanna be proxy chief exec really, and you are their lever to that,

Yep.

who want to just give you a check and leave you alone.

Like how, what would your advice be, if you like, in terms of pitching to all those different types of people and how are their demands different?

Yeah, no, I think I, I mean, uh, during my career, I, I did a lot of this, so, uh, I, I have a, big network and, and experience in this. And most important is that you, you have the right strategy, uh, that you are fully behind your story and that you know your numbers.

And, and in terms of knowing your numbers, if you were, sorry, I didn't mean to put you on the spot. If you are pitching to a, um. The, you are pitching to a family fund tomorrow and there's three numbers you need to remember. What are the three numbers would you say?

I think, uh, most, most important is, uh, is, is the return, uh, uh. The growth rates. Um, no, those, those are the most important ones.

It, it's amazing, you know it that. The return is, is so badly understood in sport. I was in a conversation this morning with somebody who was talking me through their business model and they had a total investment against a revenue number.

Yeah.

Said, well, look, that's sort of apples and peas. You can't compare investment against profit.

And it's just simple things like that. I think sport Parentally misunderstands,

Yeah.

means that there aren't already probably 25 venture studios and larger sports investment platforms doing it right.

So

The.

did you learn that? Danny, final question. I'll handover to Rick. Where did you learn, where did you, is that just running big corporate businesses, looking at individual investments?

So

Yeah. I mean,

a, I'm running a 10 million quid business and I dunno what I'm doing financially, where do I go? I,

I, I don't get your question.

so I, I think I hear, I spend a lot of time with chief executives of growing businesses. who can't talk to their numbers first

Yeah.

actually just, just can't pitch the business because they can't pitch return on investment

Yeah.

way that an investor will understand.

Yeah.

Where do you go to learn that?

Yeah, I, I think first of all, um, you, you learn by doing it. So, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, with, uh, with, with these kind of things, uh, you need to talk to, to as many relevant, uh, parties as possible and, and some will fail. And, and, and ai most important is al is always the first one. If, if you have one on board, your story gets much better.

It'll be much easier to, to get additional investors on board.

Okay. Let's talk about, um, so MMA in Europe, what's the opportunity that you see there? I.

I think in a lot of, uh, countries, it's, uh, it's still a blue ocean. Uh, it's very fast growing. It's becoming mainstream. Uh, which it, was not, uh, five to 10 years ago. Um, really, uh, the fan base is, is massively growing and it's still a scattered landscape. So with with Levels Fight League, where I'm a shareholder and chairman, uh, we are now.

Uh, by far the biggest, uh, MMA promotion in, in the Benelux. We are now, uh, looking for growth into, into, uh, other European markets. And I can say that we are one of the fastest growing European, uh, MMA promotions.

So we did a thing with, uh, what was Bellator, but is now PFL after the, the

Yeah.

and their thesis runs very similar. It sounds, you know, that UFC at the top has, uh, you've got the sort of Asian MMA brands quite interestingly, I think you sort of. UFC is seen as quite an American brand, but it's every, you know, it seems that's the, the big gorilla in the middle of the marketplace.

They've grown that over, over time. Huge media rights sort of deal gonna happen this year for, so they the same people that you are, you are hoping to sort of attract. another venture, 'cause you've got this, this other one. You've got PFL in the marketplace as well. There's a question about the supply of fighters and the product and the how do you maintain the quality of the

Yep.

you've got

Yep.

these companies above you in the, in the food chain, but also audience, there's a, there's a question of, well, why would I come to this one?

And is it a local versus global question? Is that the thesis?

Yeah. Yes. Uh, it's, it's definitely local versus global. Um, secondly, we will never compete with A UFC or a PFL. Because, uh, it's impossible. And, and, and we, we shouldn't want that. Uh, we see ourself much more as a, a feeder league into these, uh, uh, the, into uc and, and, and also PFL. So actually over the last two years, most of our champions have gone to the UFC.

And because of that and because we have a big focus on the fighters, uh, they absolutely love to. To fight at our events because there are many, many promotions who sign as many fighters as they can, and then they, they never let them fight. So this is obviously, this is killing for your career as a fighter, what we do, we always, uh, promise and deliver.

If they come on board, they have at least. Two to three fights a year. So they know that, they know that we are not, uh, paying the big, the big tickets, but they know that we are away into U of C or maybe PFL. And this is where they all want to end up, obviously, because this is where the, the, the real big tickets are.

And the big podium, the big feasibility.

What's the career like for those fighters? I mean, is that, 'cause obviously, you know, when you talk to fighters in the UFC, They're saying, okay, is it disproportionate amount of money goes to the very, very, you know, the, the McGregor's of the world.

the pyramid is like a gig economy where they're taking on all the, you know, all of the costs of business, insurance, injury, all of those

Team.

pushed onto the individual athlete.

Yep.

got this really unhealthy environment. Below the very top end of UFC, which everyone talks about. just trying to think what the world would be like below that.

Uh, uh, it's very tough. It's very tough, but people have a dream

Do they get

uh, uh,

them?

we, we paid them. Yes, for sure, for sure. We paid them.

It's, um, I, I guess. So I have a, I have a bit of a background in, in this space insofar as my granddad was a, was a boxer. So was Irish amateur, wel weight champion, came over to England. and his only route in to any kind of pathway, especially as an Irishman, was to fight in the fairgrounds. Right. So he'd sort of try and stay upright for three rounds against the fairway, against the heavyweight champion or the whatever. 'cause he was handy, usually managed to, to. To sort of stand up and, and get paid. The real trick was to keep your money while you were being chased outta town.

Yeah.

Right.

Yep.

it's, it's, I'm imagining partly it's being paid in the first thing. Partly it's also being in a environment you trust where you know if you do get paid, somebody's not coming chasing you, and that you will be looked after.

It's probably just as Portas Portas in apart of the jigsaw I would imagine. You know, he had only barriers shut to him in terms of his career. And it's just feeling like you're in an environment where you can get looked after is, is pretty important.

Yeah.

I guess it's interesting then that you've also got an investment in boxing, right?

So. Is,

Yep.

it back to the paddle and tennis conversation, you've got both the new upstart in m and a, but also a piece of the, the sort of traditional infrastructure. So you've got the equivalent of a piece of paddle and a piece of tennis. So what's the thinking behind that in terms of having a part of the old world and a part of the new world?

I really believe in, uh, in boxing. Uh, first of all, I'm, I'm, uh, I, I train boxing my whole life, so, uh, I'm a, I'm a big, uh, passionate fan, um, and there's a massive opportunity here. Boxing is growing very fast. And especially now with, uh, with World Boxing, which is the new, um, uh, Olympic Boxing Federation, um, there's an opportunity to, to grow the sport globally significantly, uh, uh, Olympic style boxing is faster, much more action than than pro boxing.

Uh, and it's actually, it has a much better fit for the younger generations than, than pro boxing. And next to that, uh, especially the Saudis, but, but everywhere in the world, there's a lot of money, uh, invested in boxing over the last couple of years. So, so we believe we can, we can change the model, uh, and we can really make the.

The world boxing events, uh, much more appealing for fans. Grow the fan base, grow the sports, and in the end, uh, significantly return for the sport.

And, and.

With the FE World Championships in Liverpool. Right.

yeah.

and the business model is, is media rights or sponsorship, or is it ticket revenue or is it sort of monetizing individual fans?

everything. So we have a long term agreement with, uh, with roll boxing. Uh, where we, uh, we have all the commercial rights, um, and, um, we organized the world boxing arm defense, uh, and monetized them.

What was, um, if you're right, if I changed tack a little bit. Rich, what was the last thing you said? No, to both

The last thing I said no to,

Yeah. The last investment that crossed your desk that you said, not

oh, there, there are many. Um, I think we, uh, we get, uh. 50, uh, potential investments every week. We actually, we, uh, we developed a tool, uh, it's called Inbound, where everything we get in, uh, is, is, uh, with an AI based platform is analyzed, uh, and we get a full report, um, how close it is to where we're, what we're looking for.

So it's can, for example, say. Uh, it's, uh, 93%, uh, uh, close to, uh, to what you're looking for because of A, B, C, D, and E.

And what are the

Uh, Uh,

when you're looking at something you turn down?

I think number one is management. Um, uh, because I, I, ID is important, but, but the people are 10 times more important than the people who, uh, who have to do it. Um, we also always prefer to have multiple founders, so one founder is already tricky. Um,

does the AI in that question? If the, if the f

yeah,

it's

definitely.

the

Yeah, definitely.

good people and bad people.

Yeah, no, I, yeah, more or less look at their backgrounds and, uh, so it's, it's, it's a very complex system, but it works super well.

That sounds great. Uh, and. Um, so you've got management looking for co-founded businesses. One, um, how about the revenue project? The financial projections? Like does anything with that in England where we'd say hockey stick, so loss, loss, loss, massive profit.

Yeah.

a, is that a red flag too? How did, do you look

The,

numbers or do you look for

I definitely look for realistic numbers. I hate hockey sticks. Yeah. Yeah.

You can't say that as a Dutchman.

I like indeed the, the, the wooden hockey stick, but not, uh, not the one on paper.

Very good.

Fantastic. Well, listen, Danny, thank thanks so much for your time. Really enjoyed the conversation. It's a really unusual

Same here.

So there's a whole load of different things in there and the people will be looking at the, um, European Venture Fund with great interest thanks very much for your time. I really enjoyed having the

More than welcome.

 





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