Unofficial Partner Podcast

UP499 TKO, OnLocation and the World Cup hospitality market

• Richard Gillis

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Today's guest Paul Caine is the President of OnLocation, the premium experiential hospitality division of TKO Group Holdings (NYSE: TKO). Under his leadership, OnLocation has become the global leader in sports and entertainment hospitality, managing premium experiences for over 150 rightsholders including the NFL, NCAA, UFC, IOC, FIFA, and PGA of America. Following TKO's recent $3.25 billion all share acquisition of OnLocation from Endeavor in February 2025, Caine is positioned at the forefront of the rapidly expanding premium sports hospitality market ahead of next year's FIFA World Cup in the US.

This podcast is sponsored by Leaders in Sport

Leaders in Sport connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas in global sport to catalyse discussion, and drive the industry forward. A new membership offering from them is the Leaders Club, the community for tomorrow’s sport industry leaders. With 650+ members across chapters in London, Manchester, New York, Chicago and LA, Leaders Club was created with the mission to support the personal and professional growth of the next generation of leaders. This is done through members-only exclusive events, interactive networking experiences, and access to knowledge from experts inside and outside of sport. Leaders Club is for talented Managers and Heads of who are ambitious to progress towards C-Suite - if this is you, or perhaps someone in your team, find out more about membership at http://leadersclub.com

Also, remember that Leaders Week London is now a month away, visit leadersinsport.com/UP for more information and use UP15 for a 15% discount on your Summit passes

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Hi, welcome to Unofficial Partner, Richard Gillis here, and welcome to the Sports Business Conversation. Today we're talking about that rarefied air, a place that I never get to go to, which is corporate hospitality. And we are talking with Paul Kane, who's president of on location, part of the TKO group TKO bought on location along with IMG and the Professional Bull Riders League from Endeavor initially an offshoot division of the NFL before a group of private equity firms, including brewing capital and Red Bird Capital, bought a controlling stake in the company in 2015, and the NFL retained a minority stake, as you'll hear. It's today. Got a very broad portfolio that goes far beyond the NFL into The NCAA U-F-C-I-O-C, fifa PJ of America. So we're talking about Olympics. We talk about the World Cup in some detail, which is obviously coming up in the States in 2026 and the Rider Cup coming up in a few weeks time. All events that you may be going to, or you may need to know how to get one of those prized hospitality tickets from Paul Kane. Anyway, very interesting conversation. Really enjoyed it and hope you do too. And talking of the NFL Roger Goodell, the commissioner of the NFL is the star attraction at this year's leaders. So this podcast is sponsored by our friends, leaders in sport, which connects the most influential people and the most powerful ideas. In global sport to catalyze discussion and drive the industry forward. A new membership offering from them is The Leaders Club, the community for tomorrow's sport. Industry leaders With 650 plus members across chapters in London, Manchester, New York, Chicago, and LA Leaders Club was created with the mission to support the personal and professional growth of the next generation. Of leaders. This is done through members only exclusive events, interactive networking experiences, and access to knowledge from experts inside and outside of Sport leaders Club is for talented people who are ambitious to progress towards the C-Suite. If this is you or perhaps someone in your team, you can find out more about that, about membership@leadersclub.com. And also remember that Leaders Week London is now a month away. So visit leaders in sport.com/up for more information and use up 15 for a 15% discount on your summit passes and we'll see you there.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Sopranos country and Springsteen obviously showing my enormous knowledge of New Jersey. I imagine 98% of people go to those two references, don't they?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Certainly from the uk they do. Yes.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So, before we get into anything sort of more specific, can you just give us a bit of. Background on you because you've you are a media guy, uh, as far as I can see. And now you are, you've, you're in the hospitality business. But give us a, just give us a set, a bit of biography and a bit of background on that.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Yeah, it, it, it doesn't, it feels sometimes like a departure, but it's a hundred percent not a departure at all.'cause I feel like I've been in the hospitality business my whole career, but I did start, um, certainly I spent a lot of time in media. Um, I had the privilege of working for two and a half decades for one of the best media companies I could ever think of, which was Time Inc. And we produced incredible magazines around the world when Magazine Media was a leader in the space.

Richard Gillis, UP:

remember magazines though, Paul?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I

Richard Gillis, UP:

I,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

them

Richard Gillis, UP:

I love magazines. Don't you love magazines?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I did, I did at the time. I, I have to be honest, I haven't read a magazine in a very long time, but

Richard Gillis, UP:

Nah, not me. I.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I spent two and a half decades, a lot of it with People Magazine, which was a privilege. And in that we, um, did certainly a lot with brands and consumers in bringing them, uh, closer, uh, to the world's, like most incredible events in entertainment culture. Um, moments in, in world history and in a lot of that we created, um, hospitality experiences for them. So, so in the background we used to

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

And, um, and in the foreground we were selling advertising and selling magazines and building editorial for consumers. I then went on to Westwood one, Bloomberg, um, all in the media space. uh, and then I actually started to go off on my own doing, creating, you know, investing in small businesses and building businesses that were of interest of mine. I really did miss being in the space of media and entertainment and sports and, uh, and, and having spent so much time in sports and entertainment, it's, it's in your blood, you know, and then I just. After three years of, of working on my own, and I, I desperately want to be part of a team again, and I, but I didn't want to just join a company. I wanted to join what I thought was gonna be the most incredible company. And how I identified that is by saying, well, you know, really there was only one person I would work for. I was gonna work for a company. And that was Mark Shapiro. Um, mark and I met when he produced the People Award show, when he was the CEO of Dick Clark. He produced that for, for us. And we built a, a great friendship, but a great business relationship. And, uh, so I, I just knew this, the incredible talent that he was and for me, that's what I wanted to seek out. So I called him at that point he said he was looking at, uh, on behalf of Endeavor, looking at buying on location, uh, as part of the Endeavor family. I came on to help do the diligence and be part of that team. And then once they decided to acquire it, they asked me if I would stay on to run it. And the reality is it feels very familiar and oddly enough, there's a lot of people in media, from media, especially magazine media, in hospitality. And the reason why is we built for decades incredible hospitality and experiences. And that's the transformation that this industry, the hospitality industry, is going in.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So are you talking there about, there's a period where the, you became, I'm thinking sort of stuff like over here. Again, it would be like sort of GQ Men of the year type award shows and just excel, you know, associated products that you could then sell around the, the core editorial brand. Is that, is that what you're getting at?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

So the People Award show is a perfect example right here is there's a Grammy sitting right behind me

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah, I.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

and I was the, and we built a relationship with the Recording Academy, the US Recording Academy when I was a people. Um, and what we, that relationship may gave us the premium position on the red carpet, but more importantly, the opportunity to entertain advertisers and build media, uh, I'm sorry, to build hospitality immersion experiences at the Grammys and around the Grammys. For these

Richard Gillis, UP:

Right. Got you. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

it's so familiar is because, um, even at Bloomberg, we, we did this thing at Bloomberg called Bloomberg X, which was, we created these incredible, um, experiences for our advertisers to get closer to what the world of Bloomberg was all about. And they're still doing it today. that's, that was a very big part of media. The hospitality industry was really about selling tickets. Tickets and hospitality. And what location has done, and I'm so proud of the team for doing is they've transformed that concept from being a ticket plus hospitality to now being an experience and, and the of experience is so important when you understand what's going on with the hospitality industry,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay, let's, let's get into the, then again, the. So Mark Shapiro Endeavor, buying on location. Let's just go through that.'cause obviously that that's been. Well, you know, just take me inside that then, because why? Because I can see WWEI can see, uh, UFC and at, at some point I'm gonna ask you to build a bridge between what you do and those businesses. But

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

sure.

Richard Gillis, UP:

what did they see when they see on location? Because the, you, and again, just get me into on location, is, well, I, I associate it very much with the, the NFL, and there was a, there's a core relationship there, which I think still remains, but just take us inside that.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Yeah, so the on location, first of all, the on location business is we work on behalf of over 120 rights holders all around the world. And our role with them and partner with them is to help them take their premium ticketing and to build hospitality, but more importantly, to build experiences that helps them capture more of the value, but more of the relationship. With the buyers on the business side and the consumer side for these incredible events. So you mentioned the NFL. And the NFL is grounded in who we are because that's who founded on location initially, and we work across the NFL of uh, in the Super Bowl draft. The, the, um, the pro ball, the, the, the football hall of fame, so the full array of NFL experiences, including their global games. And the NFL, what we do is we work very closely with them to help them, um, take their best seat seats and to build experiences with that so that there's a one, a stronger affinity for the consumers. Or the buyers or the businesses that are buying those, that inventory. Building a closer relationship with the NFL deeper relationship and really experiencing the best of what the NFL is all about.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So is the, is the NFL is is about 40% of of your revenue. Is that right? Is that still the case?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Not at all.

Richard Gillis, UP:

No.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

you, you gotta remember like since that, that the NFL was is very much in the center of what we do, but, and it's, and it's, the way I always describe it to people is if we're a body, the NFL is our heart, right? The, that, that's where our heart is because that's where we're grounded. That's where we're founded. That's, that's who, that's the center of it. However, we've, in the last five and a half to years that endeavor has had, uh, a. of on location. And now most recently, since March, TKO has owned on location, the business has grown quite a bit that original portion where the NFL was a vast majority of the business. Now we have the World Cup, next summer we have the Olympics. do WWE, we have UFC. Uh, and we do major events around the world where, you know, we have all the, uh, US College NCAA championships, um, major golf tournaments, major tennis tournaments, um, nascar, you know, a wide breadth partners that add to what we were founded with, with the NFL. Um, but we're not only one entity.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

entity.

Richard Gillis, UP:

so you've got TKO and I mean you in terms of obviously your relationship with Shapiro, you then came in, there wasn't a sort of before that, you've always been in the TKO sort of

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

we were part of Endeavor initially,

Richard Gillis, UP:

right.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

was in January of 2020, and then this year we moved, uh, TKO acquired on location. so we've.

Richard Gillis, UP:

And what's the, what's the difference? What's, have you, have you perceived a difference in terms of just the, the day to day?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

You know, TK, the, the, we love being part of T-K-O-T-K-O is a, you know, is very focused in pure play sports between the U-F-C-W-W-E-P-B-R, um, launching, uh, boxing on September 13th, which were part of. And we do the premium hospitality and experiences for all of those partners internally. and what I love about TKO is. They're, they are absolutely innovative. are, they know how to build businesses and brands. They build live experiences. I mean, if you've ever been to a WE event, you know what an incredible show and experience that is, no matter what seat you're sitting in. That foundation of entertainment and understanding of sports is really what TKO provides. Now, you know, we feel we're at home at TKO because we're so focused in that experience. We're so focused in what fans want from sports, and that's really what TK O's all about.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Are you, you, you, you, you'll understand. Again, this is an, uh, you know, a British view of WE but I don't think we get it. I don't get it. I think it's sort of, it doesn't feel like sport. It feels more, you know, if there's a spectrum, it's way on the entertainment side of it. And it's a, it is sort, sort of game show more than a. Sport. I would, I would say, I mean, don't get me wrong, I think they're a one of the most influential companies of the last 20 years in the sports business in terms of what they've done and how they packaged their programming and all of that stuff. They were years and years ahead. But it's not sport is it?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Well, I disagree. I You should, you should spend some time with Nick Con. First of all, these, they're, they're incredible athletes to start with, and what they're doing within the rain is, uh, is extraordinary feat. But, but with any sport, what's the, the sport like when I, when I wear my favorite team jersey? That to me is, is a story, right? Why am I a fan of that sport? Why do I care about those players? There's a story behind it. It's not just, I woke up one morning and threw on the jersey, and there I am. That's, there's a, there's a storyline with every, uh, championship, there's a storyline. What makes the Olympics so extraordinary is the storylines, right? That's what people really gravitate towards. WWE. Is is incredible athletes with well-constructed stories. So, no, it's not sport in the sense of, uh, team or, you know, brute competition, which perhaps UFC represents more, is like one-on-one competition. WWE is the intersection of story and sport, but I, I would never take anything away from any of those athletes. Those people, I've, I've been with them, I've spent time with them. These are tier athletes. tuned athletes doing extraordinary feats. And so I, I believe it. Plus what I also, I've been a fan for a long time. I, I have to, we, you know what, we just did WrestleMania 59. I just, I, I was a WrestleMania three. Okay. So I've been a fan of WWWE for a very, very long time. And and I have to say, like, I've always been impressed. With what that product is in the ring and for on location. When we, were brought on as a partner for ww, which was before. We were working with WWE E before they were part of Endeavor, or TKO. Um, we wanted to be part of that because we saw what the fan experience was all about. I stood, you know, at one of the Wrestlemanias. I remember standing there looking around the stadium and seeing the gleam in people's eyes, the families, the, the, the longtime fans. People come lit up. That is the core essence of what makes an on-location experience work is a sold out event with a high demand and a absolute rabid fan. And that, and WWE e stands for all of that.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So one of the things that I was, I was wondering, again, I've been to a UFC fight and it's, you know, scary as hell and I, it, the, the, the, the crowd, and again, it's, it's sort of that, linking that to an on-location. My assumption is it's quite, you know, it's an UP mart, it's expensive and it's an up market. Premium offering of hospitality, how those two things get together. Because when I was in the crowd at UFCI, I was, I was desperate to go to a upmarket, you know, box of some sort, but there weren't many there. But I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to get that in my head in terms of how hospitality works and in that environment.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Yeah. Richard, I think that's one of the most important questions I've ever been asked because

Richard Gillis, UP:

See, I, I, I knew I'd get there. I, I, you know, I'd get there in the end.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

no, I, I love it because that's exactly what. That, that is the right question to ask someone like us who se you know, when we think about where we sit in the marketplaces, are we, you know, is it expensive? Um, is it out of reach? Where does it sit? And the answer is that it depends on the event.'cause every event has a different pricing scheme. and we do over 700 events a year. So there's, there's a wide range of pricing here. In fact, this, this weekend, I don't know when this is gonna air, but this coming, coming weekend, tomorrow, we're going to be doing the Errol Lingus game in Dublin, which is the week zero college football game. And the night before tonight we're doing the WWE e event in Dublin, right? That, that's happening this weekend. So when we think about an experience, it could be as, um, it's not about the price point, and I, we think a lot about this. Okay? doesn't matter how much you're paying for it. It matters what their experience is, and I love a rights holder that understands that from the cheapest seats to the most expensive seats, before you even get to hospitality products, best way to think about it is like an airline. Every airline takes off and lands basically. You know the plane,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah. Yeah,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

No matter where you're sitting, no matter what you paid for that ticket you take off and you land at the exact same time. But the experience from when you get to the airport to the, when you leave the airport is vastly different depending on the type of price you pay and the seat you, you

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah. Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

And, and we are in the stadium like an airline. We are generally the business class or at least premium. We start with premium and then we go to business class. Um, and in some cases we also have private aircraft type of product. In the airline analogy. But that airline. Whether it's Emirates, British Air, whatever it is, they stand for something. We represent the premium side of it. Um, and what we look at though is for some people who sit in business class, it's something they do every single day. It, they don't even think about it, right? That's just what the way they fly. For others, it's the first and maybe the last time they ever get to do it. It's a bucket list. have to respect each and every one of those customers. No matter how much, how they paid for it, whether they saved a lifetime for it or whether they earned it in the last hour, um, we have to treat them all with the same level of

Richard Gillis, UP:

It is funny, I I'm, I'm a massive hypocrite on this question because I, you know, you, you sort of want to present yourself as a sort of man of the people, you know, the every man, noble, savage in the crowd, you know, all of that. But then whenever I go, I think I really wanna be in hospitality, you know, it was like, I, and I remember going to, where was it? Uh, it was a rugby game at, at a big game, a big final European final, and, uh. It was a Heineken thing, and we went, Heineken had a, their Heineken house thing. And after about, you know, two hours of drinking Heineken, which, you know, you can have enough of, and although you're an American, so you'll be, you'll be familiar with the, uh, you know, uh, not very good beer. But there is a, there's a question there of. I led a group saying, right, we need to go back into the real people where, you know, back back to the, where the, where the action really is. And I lasted about 20 minutes out there and I thought, no, I'm gonna come back into Heineken house.'cause it's just like, it's just hell out there. So I'm, I am, I love the idea that I'm gonna go and have the authentic sporting experience, but whenever I go to, you know, I think I know I wanna be in the, uh, I wanna be in the, once you've sampled it and someone like me. I'm never on the, I always get a late invite. You know, I'm never on the, I'm never the CEO someone has turned something down and they'll say, right, okay, we'll get a hold of Gillis. He'll, he'll fill the seat, he's me in the room. And you think, okay, that's fair enough. But then once you've it, it's dangerous stuff. It's like, it's know, it's like crack. You get a little bit of it and you gotta have more. See there's your sales pitch.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Well, that it, it, there is a bit of that, like we always say like, you know, to people who have ever had the privilege of flying private, once you do it, it ruins you in a way. And the same thing with business class, right? I, I. I would say it's more than the hospitality, and this is where I would encourage you, Richard, to come join us for one of our events because having that premium hospitality experience in the traditional sense, like what you saw at the rugby, whether it's the Rugby World Cup or a rugby final, is great because you have beautiful seating, great views, and beautiful food. And that's the core element of an experience. When we build on that, we build on that. From there, many of our guests will have the opportunity to be on the pitch or to meet legends, uh, around the sport. They're going to get exclusive merchandise. concierges that at their beck and call waiting to help them through their experience. They have transportation, housing, hotel. We even handle aircraft, air, airfare, and airline, uh, transfers for them as well. If they require it, we can do restaurant and excursions. Um, their full experience starts from the moment they either buy it. And then, or when they enter the market and it ends when they go home and tell somebody about it. So we look at the experience as a journey, not just the ticket and, and the food ticketing. And the food is the core basis of the history of what experiences are all about on location. Absolutely does that. And we have multiple products just doing that for what people want, but are what we do best. Is when we ladder in the experience and we bring you closer than ever to whatever is it that you wanna see.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay. Right. Let's get into, so you mentioned there, you've got obviously some big, uh, the Amer, the Olympics and the World Cups coming up.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Let's talk and let's just talk about the sort of, um, the marketplace where it is.'cause I sometimes, when I talk to, you have a lot of people who are running sports organizations that come on the podcast. One of the questions they're wrestling with is where they start and stop. You know, so.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, UP:

are they fundamentally, what were they? You know, they, they were event businesses and now they're becoming media organizations. They're entertainment, but they're redefining themselves in and sometimes successfully, sometimes not. And that's just an ongoing bit of the conversation. Hospitality quite often comes up as a leak for them. And quite often they have an aspiration to say, no, tell you what I want. I don't want to give the work to on location or someone, someone else. I want to keep that inside. I want, it's like the Formula One paddock Club. That's what I want because I want to keep all of the money. I don't wanna pay Paul, and, and we know he is a. You know, good guy and he'll come in with all, do all his stuff. But actually we want to keep all that money and we don't want TKO to have it. So that's that framing of what a sports body is now. And you can, when you take it to the very top, and you're talking here about the top table of Olympics, IOCs, FIFAs of this world, what's the conversation now? Do they turn around, you know, what are they looking and asking you? In terms of, because when you then walk out the room, I'm wondering if they're saying, yeah, I tell you what, we can do that, or we can do a bit of that and we need to squeeze Paul on that.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Uh, look, you know, we, we, we work best when we're not at uh, looked at as com competitive to them. We look, we work best when we provide a service, a capability, and a talent that they don't have. In their organization and they can't build it. we have a, we have about, you know, we have a very large company because of, um, because of the, uh, the, the breadth of what we do and we, our ability to scale them sales, marketing, design, and delivery in a way that if they were to try to do it themselves, it would be very expensive for them to build that capability in house. So. the biggest rights holders seek us out because they see what value we, uh, qualitatively bring, but also value financially. Um, you know, they, we, we work best when we are part of that business as a partner, so that they generate and earn more than they would if they did it on their own, with a better experience in the end. And that's when we know we did our job. Great. you know, with, when it comes to,

Richard Gillis, UP:

So just take me through that.'cause that's interesting. So how, how do they, what's the, what dictates whether they make more with you? Or in-house. What, what are the, what are the fact Is that just a pri you can charge a higher price'cause you are laying on a, a, a more added value? It's the private jet arguments.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

well, we have the consumer base to start with, right? We know the businesses and the consumers that in and around sport. So, you know, with any, uh, rights holder, they know their, their endemic. Uh, relationships, but we also brought Widen that relationship given the breadth of what we do. Secondly is. We know how to tell the stories through our marketing programs. We've got the, the databases, we've got the technology. We've got, um, the experts that know how to seek out those people and introduce your products to them, and then bring them in, uh, ultimately through our sales and concierge teams to build the right experiences that's gonna create the right program for them. Secondly, is. we can maximize their value financially for them, which is always charged. That is not a one and done, meaning you don't just charge more, you have to create more value. That, that if you create the value, then the prices align with that. And by doing so, it also cannot stop before delivery. You know, we put, you know, vast amounts of people on the ground. To deliver these products. Um, you know, when we did the Olympics this past summer in par or a year ago in Paris, that was a huge undertaking. You know, 26 venues and hundreds of sessions and hundreds of thousands of people that we had to navigate through it. So, so the complexity of it is really, really difficult to do in-house. You really need experts to know how to do it. Um, you know, with the, uh, the World Cup next year we have. 16 cities 104 sessions, right? You know, like, like the, the vast amounts of people that are gonna be coming through those 16 cities over that short period of time to enjoy the World Cup requires experts in logistics and delivery,

Richard Gillis, UP:

So is your, is your deal with, let's talk about the World Cup.'cause again, it's, it's on people's minds because they're, they're, yeah. Looking at packages. Just take me, what's the deal? You've got the license, are you, are you exclusive with FIFA as the license for hospitality? And does that cut, just take me through what that means.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Well, we are the exclusive partner with FIFA for Global Hospitality. So yeah, so what that means is they work with us we're, we work directly with them. In figuring out, first of all, allocating the right tickets per session, that would, uh, would be interesting to have a hospitality experience customer. Um, and then we are marketing

Richard Gillis, UP:

a sponsor, but it that, in that case.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

No, I mean, they, it's sponsors certainly do, um, participate in that for sure, but it's businesses who want to entertain their customers,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

and enthusiasts. So it's a lot of people, you know, a very wide range could be a law firm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

car dealer well as a sponsor. you know, there's a wide range of people that wanna go to the World Cup and either because they're fans or they just simply wanna e their best customers who may be a.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So do you, just take me through, again, this is a, a, a born of my ignorance of the marketplace, but there's a question there about you need a ticket to get in. So where, how does that work? So are you allocated a, a number of tickets by FIFA that you then go and package and build, build stuff around? So each ticket becomes much more valuable'cause you are layering loads of services and you know, bits and bobs around it.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

That's, that's exactly right is, um, we, there's an allocation of tickets. we have de uh, dedicated hospitality spaces in each of the venues. And then from there we build the experience, right? So the core foundation is the ticket and the hospitality, and then the experience comes up from there. Um, and the range of prices correlate with the type and depth of experiences that you could do. know, like, here's, here's one notion that I would love to, talk through as we better understand this, is people really think a lot in terms of the scale. When we think about the World Cup 104 matches the, you know, the, call it a million tickets, like there's unbelievable amounts of scale that's gonna be in the hospitality world. There's a person on the other side of every one of those tickets. There's a company on the other side of every one of those, uh, engagements. And we look at each individual and say, what do they want most? So if you're a small company, entertain your best customer. do you best want to do that? If you're a bucket list enthusiast who wants to watch England play? How do you, what? What's, what do you want from that? Do you wanna follow them? We have like, we had a product called Follow Your Team, which is, if you just wanna know, play, go wherever England is playing, you can do that. that's an

Richard Gillis, UP:

I'd like, I'm a Spurs fan. I'd like the opposite of that. Can I go? I go wherever. They're not, I've just, just,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

there. You could do that too. And.

Richard Gillis, UP:

You know, that's the last thing I wanna do is follow them., So are you offering a guarantee? So you are set, you are paying in bulk for a, a set of tickets across those 104 games, million tickets. However, what your proportion is. And then you are offering a, it's like a sort of media rights deal. You are offering a GA guarantee return on those, and then your job is to go back and make as much money as you can off each of those tickets. Is that, that's, that's basically it.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

relationship with every rights holder is different, so it's hard to put it

Richard Gillis, UP:

Sure.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

one specific term, but the, the goal that we have. First and foremost is, is to drive a qualitative return for the rights holder. And second, second, of course, it's to drive a financial return. Um, already we've sold more World Cup tickets for next summer than they sold in Qatar already. You know, we, we've already driven more value for FIFA already, for, since their last World Cup. that's huge. And, and that's the, that's when we know we've done the job right, is if one, we have the incredible

Richard Gillis, UP:

Are you saying more people want to go to a World Cup in the States than they did in Qatar? That's a,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I, I,

Richard Gillis, UP:

that's a.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

think you said that. I didn't say that. The, what I'm saying is what we, what we've been able to do is really kind of amazing and um, but I would, you know, when we look at, uh, any of our rights holder. We also very much look at what was the ultimate product and how was it delivered and what was the experience and, and were people satisfied? And the best note of satisfaction is do they come back? Um, we have a lot of people that come and buy deeper into every organization. And then also, and, and, and, and I'm sorry. Every one of our rights holders. And then there's people that buy across them who say, I want to go to six I. This is how I want to travel. I wanna travel to sport. Bring me to six different things. I wanna go to the Ryder Cup. I want go to, um, you know, the Madrid Open. I

Richard Gillis, UP:

And what's it just, what's it like? The, one of the things, again, when it was interesting, the sort of bidding for the city bidding process, just going back around, you know, the World Cup and FIFA and, and FIFA come into town when I spoke to a number of the people who are the hosts. In terms of the venues,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Mm-hmm.

Richard Gillis, UP:

they were taken aback by how much FIFA wanted and how little they wanted to pay for. So there was a sort of that that sort of took their breath away in terms of what the demands that FIFA put in and the limits on what they could do locally in terms of making money from each game and what they had, what they could pon, you know, if they were naming rights. I know they've been a sort of a change in that. Recently, but this is the first World Cup. One of the reasons this, I think this is one of the first World Cups where FIFA is taking complete control of the, the running of the event is, it is, you know, in terms of, rather than having a local organizing committee, which is always the case, and it's a sort of uafa model that they're coming in, that they're taking that over. if you are looking at it the other way? How does it work and, and what is the kickback from the, or the feedback from the people who are running, you know, the SoFi Stadium or whoever it is who are actually hosting the events. Because what, what, how, how do they make money out of this?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Yeah. You know, like, um, so funny that that on one hand it's, I I'm not, I'm, I'm, I understand why we keep going back to the money side of it because that is how we measure everything, isn't it? And it's like this failure is on that.

Richard Gillis, UP:

It's the most interesting bit as well though, isn't it?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I understand. But when you look at the World Cup as an example, and or an Olympic, when you look at. The, what they're trying to accomplish, there's always the duality to it. Certainly there's the financial return and you're gonna hear numbers of economic impact that's gonna happen. And when the way FIFA went with the model is they're working with local host, cities. So the host committees generally are comprised of people who either associated with the teams um, business real estate. There's a whole composite

Richard Gillis, UP:

I think, I think so. One of the, one of the, uh, the, again, I don't want to cross over, but the economic impact reports, I think are one of the flaky. Bits of research that you can, you can get, I think, you know, it's, I I read them and you read them and I think, okay, well that's, let's put it optimistic. And I think there is a, everyone knows that there is an impact economically of a major event coming to town, but if you are leading on with the economic impact, it's, it's, it's so finger in the air in terms of

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I.

Richard Gillis, UP:

just trying to get to an actual number.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I mean, I, I don't know how to acquire, uh, actualize the route number. I know what my impact is when we do something like, let's take the Ryder Cup, not as, not an enormous event. Right? But it's coming up in, uh, next month. Uh, it's like six, six weeks or so

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah. Yeah,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

in Beth Page, long Island

Richard Gillis, UP:

yeah. Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

It's coming that, that already one is almost sold out. Um, in terms of an event, the. Price points and the experiences are really extraordinary. You know, they, they, the, you're getting a lot of value for your money, but you're really doing a lot. But I also can tell you it's very hard to get a hotel room. The transportation's challenging. Getting in, you know, flying in during that time is gonna be hard. So one would say, we're gonna balloon up in terms of attendance, and as a rights holder, you say, okay, my portion of that is going to be. the ticket as people walk through the gates I say, and, and you know you're gonna have impact, right? So we come in, one of the reasons why we're valuable to a rights holder is we say, you know what? We can help you. Because if we, if we help those guests have this experience, they want seamlessly wheels down to wheels up, then you're going to, as a rights holder. Take in more of the perimeter, if you will, and more of the value for the event than just having it leak all over the place and that so we know it balloons up. We know it has impact in a market. We know this is why people bid for these things. From a city perspective, from a stadium perspective, we know that there's an excitement drawn from it and, and puts more people to work. It's got more, you know, security people, ticket takers, um, the food vendors, parkers in addition to hotels and and restaurants and museums and theater, and all of that goes up, right? And we help the rights holder, um, be more involved in all of that. And more importantly, for us, the guest has a better experience because the guest sees this as their. as their Ryder Cup experience. We're in Dublin right now with all of those guests, you know, tens of thousands of guests. Their experiences are seamless, end to end because of that. Um,

Richard Gillis, UP:

Listen, listen.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

World

Richard Gillis, UP:

You know, I'm glad you mentioned the Ryder Cup because, because the prices are astonishing. And, and there's a question here about, this is not necessarily, it's a hospitality question, but it's also a question of the price of. Just getting in a sports venue now is increasing and how much money do you, can we expect fans to pay? Is a, is a live question everywhere. When you put hospitality into that, are you, um, I guess there's a question about are you an inflationary impact in the marketplace? Are you pushing prices up in the market?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

There's, you know, price. Funny thing about

Richard Gillis, UP:

Again, it's a money question. Sorry Paul. I know it's a money question.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

It's fine. But you know, funny thing about price, it goes back to what I said before is that there's a person on the other side of every one of those tickets. There's a person on the other side of every one of those decisions. Just because you charge it doesn't mean people are gonna buy it.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah, but they have to be a rich person at the other end of that equation, don't they?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

a hundred percent or a company, right? But you, it doesn't have to be a person who buys it. And this is why, um, I think a great rights holder. Understands their fundamental value in the market. Before you do anything else, like what is the demand for the event? Not every event has demand, right? We see this in music, for example. It's the easiest example. Less so in sport. Although sport, let's take sport. Regular season teams in any sport, whether it's global football, American football, whatever it is, baseball, there's some teams that sell out every stadium. There are others that you know you there. There's fewer fans in the stands, right? They have a hard time selling they don't have the right product on the field. you put the right product on the field, then you fill the stadiums and the more people that you want that want those tickets, the more you can ultimately charge for those tickets, and then when you can get to the point where you can sell that stadium out three times over. At that, at a demand. That's when you bring in a partner like us, it's, it's a fundamental thing. First, get that product right. Second, make sure there's demand to fill it. Third, fill it multiple times so that you can raise the price or have increased demand, and then value that demand by adding something like an experience on top of it. We also help and guide regular season teams. On their pricing strategy, we have a technology called qq, is a, uh, a technology that allows you to optimize your yields on your tickets by pricing it correctly

Richard Gillis, UP:

So that's a dynamic pricing tool.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

it's a dynamic pricing tool and we use that also for our products as well, where our rights holders allows us to dynamically price. But fundamentally, it's, it's positioned to help rights holders dynamically price so that they get the right yield. Sometimes that's lowering price the demand isn't there. Sometimes it's raising price when the demand is there, but you can't raise price unless you have the right product on the field.

Richard Gillis, UP:

The ticket market is, I mean, again, this is, it's really, uh, uh, a difficult subject because it's one, it's, it's purposely complex, but dynamic pricing is one. It needs a rebrand because over here it's, it's, it's, it's a toxic brand, you know, in terms of it's, it's a na, it's a word and a phrase that immediately means, I, okay, I'm now. Into third party platform, and I'm gonna be paying over the odds, unless, as you say, it's not a very interesting event, in which case the price might come down. But there are, it's being gamed that marketplace. And the ticket, the ticket market, as we all know, is a really murky, difficult market. This is across the board. when you look at that, because there's a couple of things. One is how that impacts your basic business of buying tickets off the rights holder because you need, and your, presumably your clients need some certainty and dynamic pricing works against that. Dynamic pricing is all about volatility, so you've got, I just wonder how that works because I, I don't, if you are buying tickets at one price and you could do that in the time that the prices then go somewhere else. How do you deal with that? It's just a, is that just a future market question?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

it's, it's, I, it's funny because people isolate, um, their unease with dynamic pricing as it relates to tickets, but for some reason they're very comfortable with it in the hotel and, and airline industries.'cause your

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

and airline are both dynamically priced and, um, they go up and down PE depending on demand. Right? The same hotel room you could be paying if I just went. Uh, on a random week in a, in a rainy season in London, I can get a room for like 400 pounds, if I'm there during a, you know, the, in the top season and an event is happening in town, that same room can charge me 1200 pounds.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

That's, that's dynamic pricing and

Richard Gillis, UP:

You just revealed yourself there, Paul. I mean, you can get a, you can get a hotel for far less than 400 quid if you want to, uh, on a rainy down a Tuesday in London,

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

all

Richard Gillis, UP:

you, you've got higher standards than I have. I can find, I can find you a cheaper hotel than that.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

That's fair. Okay. Fair, fair, fair. But, uh, but, but you see my point is that you can, uh, it that we're comfortable in changing our pricing for those two categories. Um, we're, we're not comfortable with is when we feel, you know, they, we, we, the difference there is that it's not as, um, there's no secondary meaning. You can't get a ho you can't, you can't buy up a plane. For tickets and then go into the secondary and sell it to people. Right? So there's no secondary, it's only a primary.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

but in the ticketing world, there's a

Richard Gillis, UP:

I.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

in addition to the primary. And in the primary, um, the primary is trying to capture more to devalue the secondary. So Hamilton, the play, right? He kind of

Richard Gillis, UP:

Great first half. It lags in the second half, didn't it?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Yeah, but he got, he got very famous for that.'cause originally in Broadway, play in the US was like$200 for a premium ticket. And then he was watching Hamilton go on the secondary for about seven,$800 for that same ticket. He was like, forget it, I'm just up. I'm just charging$800 now for that ticket. Pay it or don't pay it, right? But he was trying to lower the value of the secondary and capture more of it and give it to the talent, the people on the stage. So why would this the stage not get the people around the actual play, who produced it, created it, and to deliver it? Why aren't they getting more of that value? And why are this going to the secondary if on location wasn't in the market? We provide more value to the consumer and then we retain more value for the primary. Um, and that's, that's where a true experience value comes into play. Play. However, the responsibility we have is to create accessible product too. if you look at the breadth of our product, we've got product on a much lower price. And so we give people the ability to buy the Super Bowl. You know, it's not that, that much more than face value. Um, you are getting hospitality, you're getting experience, you're getting all of the wonderful aspects of Don location provides. It's an experience and it's with the same touch that you would get at the most premium experiences, but we're giving you access to it where it's a sold out event, you can't get access and, and why go in the secondary when you can buy something that may not even be a legitimate ticket? You don't even know, you may be turned away at the door. One of my favorite stories, Richard, is that I was at the, uh, NCAA Final Four, and one of the things I love to do is. Spend time with the customers. And I also love to work alongside my, the team. I was in the customer service booth at the NCAA final four one day. And this mother and son walked up to the booth and the son was crying and the mother was frantic. And the reason why is they bought tickets on the secondary and they brought, went to the door and they got turned away because they were not legitimate tickets. And she was like, panicked. How do I, I, I brought my son. New Orleans. We're supposed to go to the game, what do I do? And we ended up working it through with her. Um, she ended up buying additional tickets'cause you just can't give them to her.'cause you know, it's sort of a buyer beware. But it was a great lesson. And work with the rights holder. Um, be in the primary. Don't participate in the secondary because you have to have a buyer beware unless it's a legitimate primary ticket. And that's, that's the piece of it that, you know, really attracts people to an experience too,

Richard Gillis, UP:

I like, I I like that story. That story is a sort of on location as, as a sort of Kate hero. You came, you came, there was a, a, a mother with a young family, and you came and rescued them from the, from the secondary ticketing market.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

We But we see it all the time. Every event we go to. There are people who are, uh, bought tickets on the secondary through a broker and are turned away at the door. Happens all the time.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So the incentives, if I'm building a new stadium, the incentive is always to, okay, I need to get more on location tickets in my stadium than. Tickets for me who are just gonna pay ticket prices. So that's the, that's essentially the marketplace. And then you've the problem is, you know, an obvious one in terms of okay, sport. Again, this is me presenting myself as the every man. But you then go along and you are a fan and you're priced out because the prices are too high. But the atmosphere question. It's not, I, I'm now a, something that is closer to a theater experience than a sports experience. So there's too many hospitality tickets. I get this at you. You feel like this at, um, again, Ryder Cup is an interesting one where it feels like everyone is on hospitality. And the prices are astronomical. How do you, what do you think about that? Obviously'cause the, again, the more hospitality tickets, the better it is for you'cause you've got more inventory. But then you've got the actual product is out-priced. It's the, the core audience. And then you get to is it's a sort of almost like a theme park of a football match or a, you know, a Super Bowl. Is it fit, is full of people who are there to watch other people be the crowd. I don't, you don't, we don't wanna go to an event and it's full of hospitality people'cause they're people like me and I sit there and sip expensive white wine.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

Well,

Richard Gillis, UP:

I add nothing to the atmosphere. I don't sing, I don't dance. I don't wear stupid hats. I.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

are, there's definitely when, when you look at new stadiums around the world, there's definitely a, uh, a strong eye towards what can they do to create better experiences for the, the fans coming in. And uh, and hospitality plays a role in any construct of stadium, whether it's suites. Hospitality, aggregated hospitality. In the US stadiums, you're seeing, uh, new suites on the field level. You're seeing, uh, suites that have, um, in it. We, we see Topgolf suites like in, in some of the stadiums, certainly in basketball and others. There's themes, there's a lot of eye towards that. You gotta remember when it comes to sports. Entertain sports specifically is you, you know, the, the, the first thing to see the game or the match is not coming to the stadium. Your first opportunity is to watch it on television or to listen to it on radio. You, you have the ability to experience it without coming to the stadium. when you come to the stadium, there's an expectation of what that stadium experience is, and it's different for every stadium. Some of them want a, a very democratic stadium where it's just seats very plain. Right? And that's, that's, some stadiums do that, but, and you see that in some of the, uh, lower level type of sports. But then when you get to the high demand sports. Not only do the customers want better experiences, but the stadium is expensive to build, and they're looking for other ways to drive more value, right? More financial value. So they're gonna build those and. We don't do anything in the regular season. That's not our game. We only work in the highest value, high interest events because that's where the highest demand is, and that's where the most discerning customers are, and that's where they want the most incredible experiences. That's where non location comes in. That's why that plane analogy comes in. The difference between a plane where you can fly in any of those seats and take off and land at the same time when you want. If you wanna watch your favorite team. You can do it in the stadium, you can do it at top end Hospitality product, or you can watch it on television. You know, there's lots of ways you can experience it. Um, and it's all depends on what the ultimate rights holder's interest is in engaging their and their fans.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay, I've got, I'm just rounding off, but there's a, I think there's an interesting question about the big events and where this is a bigger question than, you know, tickets and location and location and whatever, but it's just their role now and people are looking at the big jamboree events, you know, the big World Cups, super Bowls of this world, and they're worried about. Global warming. They're worried about traffic, they're worried about, the expansion of the World Cup in America has an enormous sort of impact, which is more journeys, more teams, more fans, et cetera. What do you, just gimme your sense of, of that question in terms of just the major events. What can we afford them in the way that they set up at the moment? And is something gonna have to happen, do you think?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

It, it's, um, you know, the group think aspect of that is amazing. Um, I saw it take place in Paris. The games were over 14 days. The first week of the games, it, it was as if nobody lived in Paris anymore. The entire city of Paris just left.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

left. It was, it was the, I've never seen anything like it, it was almost like, it felt like COVID again, in a way. It was just gone.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Yeah.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

the second week, once they realized it was safe

Richard Gillis, UP:

They're, they're all in the south having affairs with

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

uh, they all came back in the second week. And, and the first week was, was they evacuated because of fear, because of what you just described, because of worry, because of traffic, because of all the things that come up. And then the reality is there's an excitement about being part of it. we're seeing with the World Cup right now is the way the cities are engaging with it and creating fan fests. Um, coming up with ways to some, most cities have multiple events all the way up to like 7, 8, 9 matches. So you've got the ability to entertain for a longer period of time in a single venue, but in a wider spectrum. And we're seeing a lot of interest for people to be there. We're also seeing interest of people coming into the city, not even to get into the stadium, just to be part of it. The finals are gonna be in, in MetLife in New York and that, you know, we, there's only gonna be so many people that can be in the stadium for the finals, but you'll see the New York market's going to be crowded with super fans wanting to get, be part of the World Cup experience. One of the best visions I ever, you know, we've seen the last couple years is how many people stood outside a Taylor Swift concert on the hills and the grass to watch her perform. Not even, even see not to listen or perform, not even to see or perform because they were just wanting to be present. That that's a Taylor Swift concert. Imagine what the World Cup is gonna be like.

Richard Gillis, UP:

So you are, you are not worried about that, the size of them getting too big.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

No, I don't, I don't worry about it at all. What I always, the, the only thing I ever worry about is will do people wanna go, do people wanna be part of it? And, uh, the World Cup. Huge demand. The Olympics, huge demand. What's Milan right now is doing really well and LA 28 is already getting enormous amount of interest. Um, nothing is like a US Super Bowl. Uh, nothing is like a grand slam or a major golf event like the events that we're around. There's nothing like it. And I promise you, Richard, go to a WWE event, you'll be sold. UFC is a great event for a fan of, of UFC, a WWE e event is also an tremendous event, event for anybody, no matter if you're a fan of it or not.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Do you like fan fests? Do you go to those very much?

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I,

Richard Gillis, UP:

I.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

do love fan fest. Yeah. And I, I walk around, whenever I'm in market for any major event, I do go to the fan fest because it's the best way to get a sense of what the customers want. Um, and, and I, I, I love them. It also gives you access to the event if you, even if you don't have the ability to get into the stadium. Um, which I also love.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay, listen Paul, you got a busy year ahead with the World Cup and Ride a Cup. And what? What's your favorite event, your personal favorite event? And don't say WWE e.'cause I won't believe you.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

I won't say I, you know, the reality is it would've been my answer. But I will tell you outside of the, out of, outside of WrestleMania, which really is one of my favorite events. Um, I, I have to say, you know, it's, it's a really hard question. Um, I, I do love going to major golf events for sure. I'm not a golfer, but I love those events. Um, the, I'm a huge US college football fan and going to college games is great. Uh, and I'm also a US College basketball fan. Um, but there's nothing like a Super Bowl. There's nothing like a Super Bowl. And, uh, and, and you know, it's, it's, I've been to, I've had the privilege of going to many, many, many Super Bowls over multiple decades, and it's never lost on me. an incredible event that is.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay. I like the golf events as well. Actually, the open championship is my personal favorite. I dunno why it's there. There is a, there's a nice balance to it. But listen, thanks so much for your time. Really enjoyed the chat and, uh, it's not every day I get to talk to someone with a Grammy behind them. It's not bad.

Paul Caine, OnLocation:

It's actually a half a Grammy. It's a, there's a long story on that one. Um, I was the chairman of Music Hairs, which is part of the Grammy Foundation, and as I was leaving, they wanted to gimme a Grammy, but I'm not technically in the music business. I'm not a musician or a producer, so they couldn't gimme one. So they cut one in half and gave me one and said, we can't give you a Grammy, but we're gonna give you half a Grammy. So that's that.

Richard Gillis, UP:

Okay, well that's taking some of the gloss away.