Unofficial Partner Podcast
Unofficial Partner Podcast
UP532 Inside Edge: County Cricket Beyond The Hundred
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Pete Fitzboydon, former CEO of Sussex County Cricket Club, reveals the stark financial realities facing non-Test hosting counties. With only 7 out of 50-60 annual playing days generating profit, counties survive primarily on ECB funding - approximately £3m of a £5-10m turnover. The conversation explores The Hundred's transformative impact, selling the longer game, and the future shape of English domestic cricket in a franchised world.
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if you don't host test cricket or the hundreds, you've probably got about 50 to 60 days cricket a year, roughly.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And do each of those days make money
Peter Fitzboydon:Ah, good question. No. Well, there is the fundamental issue out of those 50, 60 days, about seven make money.
Hi there, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner. That was Pete Fitz Boyden, who until 2025, was Chief Executive Officer of Sussex County Cricket Club, and it's a very useful time to be talking to Pete because. This month it was announced that Sussex County Cricket Club had been put into special measures by the ECB following sustained operating losses over the last financial year. And we'll start this campaign with point deductions. So Pete was CEO, he left in 2025, and he talks about the challenges faced by counties particularly that sit outside the test match host grounds, and those with a hundred franchise. So this is an episode of Inside Edge, which is our cricket focused podcast series produced with Mike Jakeman, our co-host. And you'll find in our archive a whole load of conversations about cricket and it's where we take the general themes and trends of the sports business and point them at the game. And so I wanna thank Pete for coming on I think you'll find it a very relevant, very timely conversation.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:This episode of the Unofficial Partner Podcast is brought to you by Sid Lee Sport. Sid Lee Sport is the fame making, creative and sponsorship agency for brands in sport through exceptional creativity. Deep sponsorship expertise and flawless onsite delivery. They help brands, sponsors, and rights holders unlock their full potential in sport. Most recently picking up a Leader's sports award for their work with Little at Uafa Euro 2024. Everything they do is driven by a culture of effectiveness because in sport performance matters not just on the pitch, but in the work too. So whether you wanna build Buzz, connect with audiences, or do something that actually cuts through Sidley Sport knows how. Visit sidley where brands become champions. sunny Portugal. Yeah, no, I am as well. We've been talking about doing something focused on county cricket for a while, so it's great that we've got Pete with us. Uh, Pete, welcome to our, uh, our little collective.
Peter Fitzboydon:Great to be here.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Not at all. I sort of first met you, obviously I'm a Brighton resident and I pop over to Hove County Cricket Club or the county ground. I'm not allowed to call that. Call it now that I can't remember what the name, the official name is. Now I.
Peter Fitzboydon:First Central county ground. I think actually it might not be anymore. I think it might have expired that, but uh.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So I, I'll, I'll keep calling it Hove and, and irritate the, uh, commercial people, so I pop in. I'm, you know, I, I love it. They're an old fashioned cricket fan, so I'm always going to, but I just thought it'd be interesting to get your of just the state of the game and the state of play. First of all, I guess there's a question about the job is. So you were CEO at Sussex. Can you just
Peter Fitzboydon:Hmm.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:idea of what that means? What do you do all day?
Peter Fitzboydon:It, it is everything. Uh, and anything I think is fair to say. And it's, it's very different in the closed season to the open, uh, to, to the season. And it, it does split pretty much six months straight, straight down the middle. During the season, it is all hands to the pump, trying to get people to go to cricket, to spend money at cricket in a, without being too, uh, blunt about it. Getting cricket played because you know, yes of course there's a head coach, director of cricket, but ultimately, you know, there there are things, things happen, injuries happen and uh, and just so just running the show in the close season, it is everything else. I mean, when I started the job people said, yeah, you must have your, your feet up in the winter. It must be fantastic, but quite the opposite. Almost everything you do in a normal job happens in the close season.'cause when cricket's played, that just dominates. So it is literally anything and everything.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And how many games a year are there, just generally, and, you mentioned there about audience trying to get people in the ground and all those questions, but what, give us a sense of what, where does the money come in and where does it go out?
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah. God. How long have you got? Well, probably about an hour actually.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Peter Fitzboydon:It's, it's quite a complex sport. It's funny, when you go from the outside, it's, oh, it's quite simple, isn't it? It's a bit of county championship, bit limited overs, and that's about it. It works out. And no two clubs are the same. Just get that out there from the start there. There're different ownership models, different teams hosting different, all lots of different things. But if you, if you don't host test cricket or the hundreds, you've probably got about 50 to 60 days cricket a year, roughly. And that's the men's, possibly the women's, if they play there. A few other host games. So it's probably around that. It's usually 50 to 60 days roughly.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And do each of those days make money
Peter Fitzboydon:Ah, good question. No. Well, there is the fundamental issue out of those 50, 60 days, again, every club's different. About seven make money. I know that sounds ridiculous. And, and that is where by and large, the T 20, the blast the blast makes money for non hosts. That's when you're likely to get quite a few thousand in probably spending money. But when I say it makes money that ignores the cost of the players and all that kind of stuff, it's just in a very simplistic. Takes more money in than you spend on hosting it. Of course, there's the odd day that may, you know, be a wonderful sunny bank holiday in Hove and you, you might scrape, uh, to, uh, to uh, not a red number, but, but ultimately it is literally that the rest of it, you're losing money.
Mike Jakeman:What's your, you know off the top of your head approximately what sort of size of crowd you'd need for a county championship game to, to break even?
Peter Fitzboydon:Again, every single one's different, uh, every single ground's, different, uh, different costs, different different income drivers. You'd probably need about 1500 to 2000 through the gate to make money. But county champion, this is the quirk of county cricket. I mean, uh, when I was at Sussex, we increased county championship crowd by almost 50%. So it was, it was fantastic. But actually that doesn't equal money.'cause most of the people that come to county championship are members. So, you know, dutifully pay their 250 quid every year. And if they come to cricket, fantastic. If they don't, they don't. So a lot of the crowd that we got to go, we'd already had the money's already in the till without being too crewed. And you know, a lot of people say, oh, well still, you know, they spend money when they're there and, and that's true. And you might. Get 10 pounds per person, you know, average spend, which will be, which is great, but by the time you've paid wages, cost of food, all those kind of things, you're probably about 20% of that stick. So, you know, you work hard to get more people to go to cricket, but that in itself doesn't necessarily solve it. So it's a, it's a tougher gig than first meets the eye.
Mike Jakeman:But nonetheless, you mentioned a 50% rise in the number of people gonna county championship games. How did you do that?
Peter Fitzboydon:Well, I'd love to take personal credit. I think a lot of it was promotion, uh, as in getting promoted, not, uh, wonderful, uh, promotion of the game. Actually, to be fair, there was a lot of that, you know, there was a lot of work in a lot better communication with members, with other people to remind people you're there. I mean, a lot of people almost for forgot. Cricket was on their doorstep. So yes, you can advertise a lot, but because there's not much upside, as I've just explained, you can't spend too much advertising it, but you can communicate with certainly a members an awful lot better. Yeah, there, there was a bit of a vibe around Sussex because just got promoted. Team playing very well, actually ended up coming forth, which was fantastic. So there was a bit of a, that, that sort of feel good factor. And and Hove, you know, as you rightly say, is, is a, is a wonderful place to come and visit in the sunshine. I'll, I'll take credit for the weather. Clearly. That was, that was definitely me.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So I'm just trying to think what you would do with this information. So you've got this. Scenario and how does it impact? So the money from the central fund is what? How much is that?
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah. So again, every single club is slightly different. To give you a bit of a picture of the 18 professional counties, eight of those host test cricket, a slightly different eight host the hundred. So let, let's put them on one side for a minute. Just because they're, they're a very, very different animal. Those that don't host those big matches probably turn over between five and 10 million. Ballpark around that, about 3 million of that. Maybe a little bit more from the ECB. So, uh, and that comes into various different formats. So for some counties it's over half their income for some, a little bit less, but it, it, nonetheless, it's instrumental. It's the only thing that makes the whole thing work. And, and ECB, you know, do a great job of media sales for the test matches, all that kind of stuff that allow them to distribute that. And it, it's, they don't just distribute it through pure benevolence. It is of course. Where all the players get developed. You know, future county, future test players, rather future hundred players are developed through counties. So there is a, a logic behind the distribution, but it does give you a bit of an idea of quite how dependent everyone is on those not handouts from the ECB, but certainly funding from the e ccb. It is absolutely critical.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I'm trying to guess, but I reckon about 80% of that ECB income is the sort of sky deal, the te, the, the global rights, the media rights deals, presumably.
Peter Fitzboydon:It is. Yeah. Yeah. By, by and large it is ex it is exactly that. Obviously there's some income from test match ticketing where that's split with hope. So again, I, I think you wouldn't be a, a million miles off the mark with that. And 1.3 million of that comes from a hundred, which I'm sure will be a, a, a discussion point throughout this of this new competition. So, you know, and every single club gets that. And that is the difference between survival and the opposite.
Mike Jakeman:I feel like there's, whenever this, this sort of stuff gets reported, there's always a, an assumption behind it that if you have a, a county with a, that's reliant on a, the ECB for a high proportion of their revenue, that's somehow sort of a bad thing because they're not necessarily like a self-sustaining business on their own. Thought, is that actually a bad thing? Because if we think about this, this is all part of a single ecosystem,
Peter Fitzboydon:Hmm.
Mike Jakeman:it sounds bad that club might be getting a lot of money from the EB, but then if the club develops these. World class players, they disappear off and they go to play for England and the club don't see them again. know, the E CCB isn't going to break off into, or the England team isn't gonna break off into a sort of separate entity, much as perhaps the current management might like it to. You know, this is all part of the same thing and will always be part of the same thing. So the, the money is just being put through the system in a, you know, self-sustaining way perhaps.
Peter Fitzboydon:You're absolutely right. If you treated cricket as one business, almost Cricket, PLC, you're right. You know, the, we're almost the r and d to a degree, uh, developing the product.
Mike Jakeman:That's a really good way of thinking.
Peter Fitzboydon:Then go on what To have global, global fame. It used to be, do a fantastic job of media sales and everything else. I think that the one, so you're right, I don't think it is a bad thing. I think it's a, it's an inevitability of sport that you have your very valuable assets. In this case being test cricket. And those that, that develop it. And you know, you look at the Premier League, it's a bit on its head really. I suppose the club game is the bigger one, uh, in terms of media rights, but still, you know, they all feed off each other. They all need each other. And and, and, and that's how it works. Well, I think, I would say is it's high risk because if you look at where the money is. The negotiation of those media fees, uh, of those media deals is, is crucial, crucial to the whole game. And if there's a bad negotiation or bad luck, bad timing. If you've gotta keep, make sure your players carry on playing in your products and don't wander off to, uh, the IPL Caribbean and, you know, other, other, even like competing, uh, products so that there's that as well, that you've gotta make sure you look after your own. So it's definitely high risk, but ultimately, I don't think wrong. I just think it's part of the part of the system.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Unless the franchises move to take that job, we had, Sankara Kuma Sankara on a while ago, and he sort of was suggesting, and this was probably at two years ago, so this might have moved on, but, and he sort of, after the pod, he was suggesting that the franchisees wanted. grow their, uh, ability to almost own the pyramid, you know, in terms of the talent pipe pipelines. And he then afterwards touch said and was quite sensitive about that.'cause I think he was told off for talking about it in, you know, in public. But there is that. If that shift happens to Mike's point and to, you know, the ecosystem then does come under pressure because if, if the 15 or 20 test players may male test players are in a sort of cocoon of their own, and then you can then handpick from a franchise world, you've got the 2020 to test cricket problem, can they do, you know, bridge that gap? That's an alarm bell, isn't it? So if you start to say, right, okay, in favor, you'll be shocked to hear of this ecosystem argument. And I'm now trying to think of ways in which it becomes vulnerable. And one of them is, is it's not just the 2020 tournaments, it's the ambitions of those franchises, which are becoming very significant in the, in the landscape.
Peter Fitzboydon:You, you're absolutely right, especially with franchise Cricket getting big, you know, the, the, the numbers coming out, the IPL are. Scarcely believable. I can't quite comprehend them, to be honest, in terms of the, the value and the revenue that's going into them. If that was replicated here, which is very much the plan, the plan is to be, you know, the, the second biggest behind the IPL very, very quickly. There's a lot of money to spend and therefore a lot of money associated with developing players there. There's a financial reward there. What I would say is the scale of it is so, so big to replicate for. A I whatever, a southern brave to reach into Stew Cricket Club and pluck out the the next star. It is tough and develop them year on year, on year, on year. I think they can certainly, you know, there's a risk they do the, the end bit, which is almost that, that fine tuning the academy, the, you know, the finishing school of Cricket. There's certainly a danger of that, uh, because players have no. I say no allegiance, that sounds harsh. You know, they will rightly follow the best path for themselves,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:they're sort of
Peter Fitzboydon:um, and that
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:is educating the players to have no allegiance, isn't it?
Peter Fitzboydon:it is, and, and I don't blame them. You know when, when you talk to some, some players and in the winter they're off to South Africa now, potentially, uh. To UAE Pakistan playing various leagues around the world. I absolutely don't blame them. You know, they, they are, if they, if they do well in a 10 year career, hopefully longer, and a lot of them aren't much above the median salary, you know, for a county contract for a a stock county. Player. You know, you, you might be talking 40 during 40 grand during their early career raising to 60 grand. You know, we are not talking retirement territory, you know, we're talking Premier league wages, but for a year, not a week. So, and, and so, you know, do I blame them for going off to so, so climbs and, and, and, uh, and making some money? Absolutely not. I think they're absolutely right too.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I, I can see this conversation going towards the hundred before it does. There's a question about just the local question about the incentives are to be a better team. You mentioned there that you know where to put the money. are stars valuable in this, in in that county game? You mentioned there about promotion being an impact on the sort of overall value and revenue went up because of it, which I think is quite sort of interesting'cause some promotion, relegation sort of from my point of view, I don't really care whether Sussex are in the top or the bottom league. I'll just go and. You know, watch what's
Peter Fitzboydon:Hmm.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:So I'm in it's fi It's interesting that idea. So it's sort of, me, slightly counterintuitive, but I just wonder what the incentives are for a CEO of a county game to say, right, okay, we're gonna go the galagos route, we're gonna go and pick up a load, spend a lot of money on, on the start playing stuff the other route, which is now the opposite of that.
Peter Fitzboydon:No, it is interesting actually, to going back to your point, why, why did people come? I think a little bit of it was seeing better teams, better players, a little bit of that. A little bit of, well, I think we were just in the news and people remembered, you know what, I wouldn't mind going, watching some crickets. I, I don't think it was just, oh, we're division one now. Let let's go. Uh, but yeah, no, no one, no one answer for everybody. Well, in terms of incentive to win.'cause you're absolutely right. In the Premier League in football, there might be a big incentive. Certainly championship getting promoted is what's worth risking. If you win the county championship, I can't remember the exact prize money, it's about four to 500,000 pounds for winning. Most of that goes in play bonuses, so for winning. So there isn't any, and I, I would probably say that that's not necessarily a bad thing because if you want a sustainable system, you don't want teams. Risking money, risking their hard cash on player wages. So I think it's probably quite a healthy thing if all of a sudden there was a million or 2 million pound carrot at the end of the road for, for this, you might think, do you know what? We will sign that extra player and then five or six counties will sign that extra player and you've just blown half a million quids. So I think actually not having big prize money is quite a healthy, healthy thing in county cricket for its long-term future.
Mike Jakeman:Actually on this issue, I find this fascinating. If we, if we take 10, the last 10 or 15 years or so. coincides obviously with the, the growth of franchise cricket around the world. Has it become more difficult for English counties to persuade, recognizable names to come and play for either a, a shorter term or for a season, or
Peter Fitzboydon:Definitely.
Mike Jakeman:that sort of
Peter Fitzboydon:I, I think going back absolutely. I mean, go, going back to my, my first ever first class game was I show my age, I think it was 19 85, 19 86 bath recreation, ground out ground cricket watching Somerset play. Kent Somerset had Viv Richards and both them Joel Garner. So, turned out it was all right actually, and I, yeah, it wasn't always like that, but you, you used to have players for the whole year.
Mike Jakeman:Yep.
Peter Fitzboydon:A test player will come over play for you the whole season. Those days have gone now and because it is a, it's an incredibly crowded global calendar. You know, all those different competitions I've just spoken about, some of them over encroaching on the English summer as well. So there are other play, other things for people to play that are probably paying more. There's test cricket of course, which goes on all around the world, so that, that's very, very tricky as well. So if you are lucky enough to get a notable player. You've probably got'em for four or five games. You've got you, you've stolen a slot of their calendar and then you'll slot another one in somewhere else and somewhere else and somewhere else. And, and their price tag's gone up to be, to be blunt, and coming back to that commercial imperative of winning because there isn't so much. Of course, everyone wants to win that. That's the business of cricket. Of course it is, but it's not a, a be all and end all risking 10 grand a game on a player. You don't, you don't see it back. So, you know, it is just not there anymore, even if they are available. That said, I think the hundred, we've seen a lot of players come in and play county cricket before the hundred, which has been really getting a proper global stars. So that, that in itself I think does help lure people, uh, to.
Mike Jakeman:That's, that's interesting that the, commercial imperative sort of isn't there. And also if you hire somebody, an Australian or a West Indian who's gonna play four games at a higher cost, you're also blocking the pathway for whoever was in your team prior to that player arriving. Okay.
Peter Fitzboydon:No, you're absolutely right.
Mike Jakeman:interesting.
Peter Fitzboydon:And some of the ECB funding is actually predicated on playing your own players, rightly, you know, to bring English players through, develop them, blood them as early as possible in in top level cricket. So, you're right, there's, there's a, there's lots of reasons not to, although it does get bombs on, seeks the right name, you know, it does. I think before my time Sussex signed Steve Smith you know, in, in an ass.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Peter Fitzboydon:Not a bad name. Unfortunately, I think by all accounts, most of the games were away from ho actually, so you've actually benefited other counties.
Mike Jakeman:I mean. But I mean, there aren't very many test regulars playing any more than cameo appearances in the county chapter. Kumar Roach, sorry, is the only one that to my mind immediately as being a first pick in a test side who's there for the season
Peter Fitzboydon:Mm.
Mike Jakeman:anymore.
Peter Fitzboydon:Williamson was at Middlesex last year. Fleetingly, you know, so, but you're right, you are, you are, you're probably counting on one hand proper test match. People, people on the street would know if you like, so.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the Allegion you mentioned there about Somerset and Richards and Ghana and Sussex. Obviously, you know, Imran Khan and Garf la Ru and that period what I suppose seventies and eighties we're talking about here, where the, every county had two or three top. Test stars and they were sort of part of the fabric and you knew it was e you could have a relationship even if you weren't a fan with those counties.'cause you sort of knew Zahir would be at Gloucester. There's a value there, I guess in just the longevity of the relationships, Ana, you know, or just all of these players that were. Synonymous with their county and that we're just in a different world now. And there was a period wasn't there? That county Cricket itself was just almost like a sort of IP Lish product'cause of the window. It had all of the best players in the world, and we used to remember the, the arguments about why are we training the, these foreign players, you know, to, to, in county cricket. Why, why are we giving Viv Richards the sort of, you know, a career in county cricket where he comes and beats us in the, you know, test matches. That I think up the. The, the where we are now, the difference, and you see it in lots of d different sports as well. I had a conversation this morning about football the, the sort of star and team dynamic. Which is, you know, if you, if you listen to podcasts like this one ad nauseum, people will come on and say that gen Z and Gen Alpha want to follow the star. They don't care about teams. We don't know that yet. We don't know what the long-term impact is yet, but it's a YouTube impressions version of what fandom is. But I guess there is also the question of getting people through door.
Peter Fitzboydon:And, and you'd also look at the fact central contracts. Have central contracts for England been a good thing. A bad thing. I, I think it just had to happen, you know, to manage player workload. You, you've gotta do that and you can't put on the play. You need to have a central body controlling their workload, making sure they stay fit and well for, for all the above reasons I spoke about it, it is not the, the, the good old days. I remember Paul Fre saying when he was playing professionally, he played for the summer and then would get a part-time job in the winter, whether it's teaching or whatever, you know, they're not those days anymore. Although they used to play an awful lot of cricket by all accounts during the summer, but, but still those central contracts that do look after players, but there's an inevitability that that means they can't play county cricket all the time as much as they want to. You know? I know, I'm sure Jeff Archer would love to play for Sussex every week, but it just would not be good for him. It wouldn't be good for England. So.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I hand back to Mike, there's a question that I asked. Stuart Kain at Warwickshire about, could you, is there any way of filling ground for a county game? I.
Peter Fitzboydon:Hmm. Well, Sury did it very well last year. I think they had twice, they had about 15,000 people I think from memory. You know, they, they've got an oval which helps. It's not a, not a bad catchment era of about 9 million people, but, but still, you know, they got 15,000 people there. I think they broke the post-war record of an 80,000 people.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:game?
Peter Fitzboydon:Season? No, that, that was for county cricket. For county cricket. And they did it, did it twice. I think it was Yorkshire and one of the counties. So it shows it's possible and you know, they've got 80,000 people there overseas just for county championship. And all of the, all of the stats are that people do enjoy it when they come. It's just actually getting them over that, that threshold. It can be better marketed, of course it can be. But if you look at it, and I certainly, when I talk to my kids. They love the hundred by the way. You know, they do. But I think a lot of that is because it's in the headlines, they actually see it. Whereas county cricket, you know, certainly as an avid fan, you have to scroll halfway down the BBC website, you know, dive in a few. It. It's not front and center. It's not the culmination of a season. It's not the big, uh, you know, playoff between Warwick. Well, a couple of years ago, I suppose it did do when uh, I think Summerset had that amazing game against, sorry. But that was the only time it almost popped above the surface into the mainstream.'cause it was a phenomenal game. You just don't see it unless you're looking for it. Whereas before you did, it was back page. Well, front page was Sam. Both of them stuff wasn't it? But it was, it was just, you couldn't ignore it. And so it was more of a just a thing to do.
Mike Jakeman:We
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:now because this obviously is going to be a, the start of a, a transformative period one way or the other. Are lots of numbers that are talked about, which makes it hard, particularly on a podcast kind of get your head around it. Are you able to kind of contextualize some of the, the numbers? So for Sussex, for example, uh, a non hundred hosting club, what money are they getting? So how does that fit into their The revenue and that they get in a year and stuff, so how transformative is this gonna be?
Peter Fitzboydon:the big thing for, for non hosts, so the, the, the 10 non hosts of, of the hundred. Is 1.3 million pounds a year, the drops in the account every single year. That keeps us alive, you know, and, and that was part of the deal when they set up the hundred that every single county would get that 1.3 million every year. Absolutely fantastic. Hopefully that'll continue in the new media rights deal because counties like Sussex, Somerset, Kent, et cetera, they, they rely on it. They absolutely need it to, to make the business models work. So that, that was, that's the revenue bit. The, there's also been a massive windfall for every single county when they sold the rights to third parties for the actual, uh, for the franchises. And as that, that what certainly did hit the headlines in terms of the overall value of those eight franchises was valued at 1 billion pounds, which I still can't get my head around that. It's a product that is played for one month a year. With no ground assets, actually, no, no player assets even, you know, even they're kind of, if you like, rented in the nicest possible way and it's worth a billion pounds, which is, it's why when I look back at Cange Cricket, I think there must be something there.'cause they're playing at the same grounds, broadly the same game, few fewer balls and. It's worth a billion pounds, so there must be some value there. We're just not tapping into it. I think that's the challenge, but the hundred both in terms of selling that all non hosts received, I think it's about 24 million pounds. That's not cash. Off you go. It's very much around a fund that people can tap into. To build things, spend it on things that make money. Because I think what the ECB rightly did not want to do was that drop drop in the account.'cause where would it go? It'll be a competing for players and, and just almost that windfall and the family silver's being sold for no real benefit. So hopefully this, this money be really well spent across the county game. To safeguard it for another, you know, however many decades you should see it through. And the e ccb rightly are being very, very protective of that money to make sure it's spent well.'cause it's, you know, we haven't got another a hundred to sell. This is, you know, this is the last of the assets, uh, for, for the counties. So I think that's the big thing for counties at the moment to try and turn that money into something that makes money, that makes their grounds better, to attract more players to, and, and, uh, and fans, et cetera, et cetera. But it is a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:does the Hundred money have to get spent on cricket related activity?
Peter Fitzboydon:Not necessarily. No, absolutely not. You know, you can, if you wanted to build a hotel, a gym, uh, or whatever, something that makes money around the year. Absolutely. And, and certainly for me, that, that's what I advocate, that if you look at a ground, as we said earlier, a ground. It's a big old place. Some bigger than others, some in the countryside, some in cities, but it's a pretty big place and it's played on 50 to 60 days a year. You know, it's not played on it 300. So what can you do with those 300? To make money. You know, there have been various people have made a, you know, really good thing of hotels. I padel. For me padel is the, the golden goose at the moment. You know, it, it is incredible. padel tennis, you make your money back in a year, so if you've got the space, put padel. Absolutely. Uh, gym, health and fitness. At Sussex, we opened a, a sixties. Theme bar, which was, uh, sort of virtual cricket that gets people in the ground all year round because it's not just about making money, it's actually getting people through the ground. If you can get younger people there hopefully you can gather their data and try and flog'em some cricket tickets. So try and get people to the ground and not just almost close the gates at the end of every September and reopen it in April.
Mike Jakeman:It county's got its allocation that the ECB is now sort of holding will e their and say, we'd to spend two and million on. And then e decide whether, not release.
Peter Fitzboydon:Uh, yeah, with the ECB and all the clubs agreed on the criteria for releasing it. So its not the ECB sort of, you know. Holding onto the money and not, not letting people. It, it's not that at all. It was when the deal was struck, everyone agreed. That's a very sensible way, uh, to spend money and the ECB should hold onto it, invest it centrally on the county's behalf, and be that gatekeeper actually, to make sure that people aren't frittering it away. And I, I think that was a very, very good decision. But you're right there, there needs to be a case made to the ECB that it, it fits the criteria, that it does make money.
Mike Jakeman:say we need to give everybody a 50% pay rise, then they say no thank you. That's, you know, because as we've seen in other sports
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:wages are, you know, just go up and up and up,
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:and absorb a higher and higher level turnover until
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Well, it's the sort of football
Mike Jakeman:on.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:galas thing again, isn't it? It's what we talked about earlier, the one temptation. And it, and it's interesting you mentioned there, uh, Pete, about the, the lack of incentive of winning the championship or winning. it was 5 million quid to win it, then you would get into a sort of football esque. Arms race of talent. that's, that's the sort of flywheel you then get in, you know, you get someone in your spot on the c in the CEO seat saying, right, okay, now we're gonna really go for this. Now we're gonna have a adventure the ECBs windfall. And there's a bet that could be
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah. No, you, you, you're right. But then again, that's always gonna be there because our core business is, is winning sports games. It's winning cricket. And, and I think, I don't think any members, and remember most clubs are still member owned, which in itself is quite a unique thing in this kind of commercial world of sport. I don't think many members would say. Well done. You've made half a million quid and we're bot division two. I don't, I don't think many people would say would say that. So if we, if, if a county is making profit, they're likely to reinvest it in players, whether it's future players, current players to compete on the pitch. You know, so that's always light to happen. And even with the, the a hundred money dropping in, that was probably, uh, midway through last year, roughly. There's definitely been. Player wage inflation. Not not Premier League, you know, but, but certainly 10 to 20% wage inflation. I think everyone's seen it.'cause everybody knows all of a sudden, oh these counties are a little bit wealthier. I think when it came to negotiation time through player agents, you can't sit on this, oh, we haven't got any money. Sorry mate. You know, there, there is some money there albeit it difficult to get hold of and actually, you know, you have to turn it into revenue. It's there. So definitely there's been player inflation already, but thankfully, as you rightly say, not that let's gamble on a 200 grand player to win the win the championship because there's just no business.
Mike Jakeman:So I'm really interested now in what some of your thoughts are on the best this money, because if you've got grounds that are being, you start thinking, well, what can we do to get'em in the door? And, you know, you talk about bars and padel and all this, and, but then you're also saying quite rightly, we, you know, our primary focus is winning sports matches. And suddenly, you know, if we're talking about padel, you know, we're getting a little bit further or, or hotels, you know, we're going a long way from, you know, core, core business here. So what are some, what are some of those pros and cons? Different ideas for what, what switched on county should do with this that is now available?
Peter Fitzboydon:I think there's no right answer. Every single county's different. As I say, you know, with, with Sussex, it's a very tight ground, but in the middle of a wonderful catchment area. There are some of the opposite with masses of land, but probably not in so much of a wealthy area, not an urban area. So there's no right answer for any of this. Some people say the smartest counties won't spend any at all, and we'll sit on it. Invest and actually make sure it's a nest egg for future generations. And actually there, there's a case for that actually, that rather than try, you know, unless you are actually getting a massive return on spending that money, don't invest it, try and get five to 10%, you know, uh, reliable income. I'm not of that camp personally. And, and that is because I think, you know, 25 million in a few years time, if you start relying on spending that interest. Of a sudden you'll be spent, what? What will that generate? Let, let's say it's generating a million quid. You get used to spending that million quid and then all of a sudden, oh actually we can't spend the money now, can we?'cause I'm used to spending the interest. So for me, I don't think you should, you should find things that are really good investments and it'll be different things for different people. For me, health and fitness gyms, most important for me is the fact is things that get your target audience into your ground. This Sixes bar that I was speaking about earlier, that that was on schedule to get about 30,000 people in the ground a year. You know, for context that's not much less than our cricket. And and most importantly it was younger people. It was people who whether it's families, young people who like drinking beer, 30% female, which was really interesting as well.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:it's gone. Busted, isn't it? Sixes or it's going.
Peter Fitzboydon:The franchise holder has. But obviously, you know, as a franchise holder there, they'll be absolutely fine with that. But other things, you know, even as Flight Club, those kind of themes, it's what guy may sound old now. I say it's what kids are doing, you know, that people aren't, you know, whereas perhaps my generation might have. The pub every Friday and Saturday. They're not, they're, they're socializing with a purpose. And that is whether it's you're doing your six years, your flight club, you're bowling or going to the gym, which you know, is, is quite remarkable. That's where people meet people these days by all accounts. So the world's changed. So I think cricket needs to adapt to work out how to attract this younger audience to matches. And I think a lot of it is not through cricket is actually through.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Well, it's interesting, a hundred from a, there's, there's a couple of reasons, things to talk about. One is that, know, the ec it's created within the ECB and that's a risk mitigation exercise rather than having it done to them. They did it themselves and they, we've had the various CEOs of the ECB and various people on over the years. That's, I, I think, is a huge of positive to say. It was quite interesting how divisive and how angry people got about it. So the Sussex membership, I imagine on mass, were not huge fans of it initially. I dunno if they ever became that. But there's a, and whether there's a difference between whether you've, you're a hundred franchise or not. But it's odd though, isn't it? Do you, do you think it's, it's how angry people get.
Peter Fitzboydon:I find it absolutely bizarre and you know, I think every single member's forum actually quite enjoyed member's forum. It was really good and you get some tough questioning, but it's quite nice to sort of connect and, and hear from people. But there are some people who can't even mention its name. It is the one that should not be mentioned. They call it the 16.4 being how many overs it really is to bowl a hundred balls. So, you know, there's that feeling many years on and you know, even when you say. Without the hundred, we'd be bankrupt. You know, this 1.3 million keeps us alive. You know, it's just don't, just don't like it. Would, would love it to disappear tomorrow, but I mean, what I could never understand is why people don't like it. I mean, I, I, I love it. I've taken my family to the final, the last couple of years, and if you were anyone else, if you were an alien landing on this planet or whatever from whatever country, doesn't necessarily play cricket. It's almost identical. When you explain it, it's almost identical laws. It's bat on ball. It's the same players, it's at the same grounds. The only difference is they bowl in units of five and it's a few fewer. It's decimal. And when you explain, that's the only reason. That's the only difference. And yes, it hasn't got a good old county name on there. It's your created name. Like, you know, I get that. And you don't have the same resident ne residents necessarily with some supporters, but it's almost identical. And it's getting traction. It's getting people watching cricket embrace it and thank God the ECB did it, and it wasn't done to us, as you rightly say, because if it was done to us, we'd be talking very, very differently.
Mike Jakeman:At the beginning of the, this conversation you mentioned. Just in passing the
Peter Fitzboydon:Hmm.
Mike Jakeman:T 20 blast. Now, if the hundred reverts to a 2020 or becomes a 2020 format personally, I think that's fairly likely. Other people may disagree. That then means we've got 2 20 competitions in the same country in the same summer, and I would imagine that that makes the 2020 blast hard. What's the impact of that? If,'cause you mentioned that that's still, that's a popular competition for for example, as a hundred host.
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:Obviously the money is coming in, this windfall is there, but if you losing a third of your total attendance over the season because the C 20 blast is no more, what are the implications of that?
Peter Fitzboydon:It, it's been, you're right, it's been spoken about quite a bit and whether it sort of goes to the uniform 20 over Format a hundred. Yeah, potentially. I dunno what its name changes to, we'll just leave it as a legacy name, but it, you know, it, it, it's definitely possible. I don't see it as a big issue personally. You know, the, I think there's already a feeling that the Blast, which All Counties play is, is no longer the premium short format. Cricket in the summer. I think there's already that feeling that it's almost all the best players from the blast almost get promoted to the hundred. They get bought by the hundred teams, so it's already got a bit of a feel of second tier, but it is the best club competition. And people love it. And I, I think the fact there are only eight franchises around the country means not everyone can get to that as well. I can't imagine people, you know, who live in Brighton or Round Hove thinking, actually I, I'll travel across to Southampton instead because it's'cause it's a slightly better format of cricket. And I, so I don't think that's the case. And when you look at it under spots of franchises around the country, I think it just doesn't serve. And even if it expanded, I don't think it can serve. The whole country. So I think the blast will always continue in whatever form and name or whatever. It definitely needs a shot in the arm because if, you know it, attendances have slid over the last few years, certainly from a peak around sort of the turn of, uh, sort around 2020 mark or late late, uh, 20 18, 20 19, certainly there were a peak then whether you can blame the a hundred for that. Pandemic and I'm more in the pandemic camp, to be honest. I mean, the man, the number of people I speak to who say, do you know I forgot about cricket, I used to go before the pandemic. And it was that almost habit breaker. Then a bit of cost of living. You know, can you actually say, I'm gonna spend 30 quid. I'm going to a game and if a little bit more than that on beer, potentially not, you know, and it tends to be the first thing that goes. I think all those different things thrown in, I don't think you can blame the a hundred and being a second tier, it's a great night out and I think people just need reminding. So I think a bit of a shot on the arm for the, for the blast reinvigorate it. Make people remember that it is the best county competition. It is. So let you know, let's go, let's support your club. So I think there's definitely something there.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:And presumably your, your, beginning, you said that, you know, of the 60 days, seven made money, presumably seven are the seven blast games. Are they?
Peter Fitzboydon:It is soon to be six this year. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that's it. Very, approximate. Some people make money out of, uh, for, for example, the one day Cup, which is held at the same time as the hundred, which is interesting. You know, a lot of people make money out of that. So it's not, you know, it's not the be all end all, but certainly the blast are the ones that still make money for non house.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:it's fascinating, isn't it? Uh, it's, it's such an odd shaped thing in some ways. It's such a, you know, the county game and the allocation of the counties. there is a, sometimes you, you, again, you mentioned there about it could be marketed better. There is a, residual feeling that longer game, the first class game, whether that's county or test cricket in some quarters sort of missed. Uh, they, they haven't focused on how they could market more imaginatively and, you know, the complexity being the interest than the sort of smash bang wallet of the, the 20 over game, which has its merits, but it's just sort of not as interesting and there's a frustration. I think that's part of the, you know, the classic member's position of, it's not proper cricket, but. And you know, the argument is away. The market is against you and you'll have to just sort of die with it. And it's a decaying thing and, you know, stop, winding on about the eighties. But there is a sort of residual sort of irritation'cause I think there is a bandwidth issue. You can't go full on in all directions as much as anyone ever says that they can. And there's a sense that they just not focused the, the right marketing strategy at county game and the longer game.
Peter Fitzboydon:is, it is a difficult marketing message. Absolutely. Right? I mean, it's, but then again, some people do the basics far better than others. I mean, they look at Somerset, phenomenal, absolutely brilliant outfit. They, they've got, I think over a million followers online, you know, and, and social media, you know, they, they do it very, very well. And I think that. You market better, more people turn up, more people buy your product. And uh, so I think it, it's definitely doable, uh, to do it well. But that of course takes money and, uh, and not every county is either in a position to, or willing to almost gamble money on good promotion, on, on better staff, more staff that the latest tools you can get. So it, it's, it's not as easy as it might
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I'm
Peter Fitzboydon:ing.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:I don't for a minute think it's easy. It's just, it, it's sort of, I think it's. It's interesting. We had Alex Balfour on the podcast who was one of the founders of Quick Info and that was a sort of fun conversation about when Cricket met the internet at the first IT iteration of it. And you know, it was all about the long tail and audience. It dispersed audiences and people engaging with scoring and just the nuances of the game over a long period of time. And that's part of its charm. You hear, oh, well, you know, we watch box sets. We wa we kids are gaming for hours on end. It isn't the length, you know, not everything needs to be sort of fit for a phone and a minute clip. So it, there, there is something there that just feels like it hasn't been grasped. It's, but it's sort of county cricket I think is a good test case. I'm not saying it's county cricket that's had, has this problem.'cause there is a 2020 vacation of everything.
Peter Fitzboydon:you're definitely right. I mean, we did a lot of changes to the way we did social media and I think the days of putting on Facebook that it's 168 for three, you know, great, you know that that's a, that's a stock thing you have to do, but you can get that elsewhere. What people really want now is the, the stuff you can't get anywhere else behind the scenes. Uh, things that actually putting a camera in the dressing room, getting, getting players to, uh, to mess around a nice cat. Here we are you know, getting, getting players to, to mess around to do TikTok challenges in fact, or women's school. We haven't spoken about women's cricket yet, which are massive change in county cricket last year to put, uh, women's cricket back in the counties. The women were phenomenal in terms of doing TikTok challenges. They did a lot of the content for us.'cause they were just, I think, I dunno whether, you know, whether it's a gender thing or whatever, but they were just engaging with this sort of social media stuff far better than some of the, some of the men's squads. And and people like it, it's interesting. It's actually interesting to get to know those players, to, to see the personality and why actually see a bit of fun, see something you can't see anywhere else. So I think, and that's not. That's why God, you know, drive to survive. That's why that's revolutionized F1. In terms of commercially, well, it wasn't, it wasn't struggling beforehand. F1 was it, but it certainly, you know, transformed its value. You know, some of the other documentaries we've seen, people want behind the scenes footage. They want to actually see, understand and, and get to know the characters and, and that's what sells tickets.
Mike Jakeman:So when you, uh, referred to the need to rejuvenate, I think was the word you used, the 2020 blast. Is this the kind of thing we're talking about? Because I'm interested in, in the specifics because this is the kind of thing that we hear a lot. You know, we need to rely on the charm, the county championship and trust the product. Uh, and you know. a virtue of its let's say, whereas the T 20 blast needs to be, you know, positioned in a more sort of exciting way. But I, I find it when people are able to gimme examples of what that actually means, I find that much more convincing. Have you got
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah,
Mike Jakeman:I, this, this is, this is the good stuff for
Peter Fitzboydon:I, I think getting to know the players, their stories is the secret to all of this. And there there is some, it, it was really interesting. Again, I, I'm quite my kids quite regularly here, but they, they're almost my, my, my most immediate test case for future fans or current fans, but still. They don't know what the batters look like. And it's a really weird thing to say because they wear helmets, right? You know what the bowlers look like'cause they run up and bowl. And so actually getting some footage where you get to know the batters, what they look like, their personalities, favorite shots, those kind of stuff is really interesting. And that's, that's what they're after. I mean, obviously they have a, an attention span of a nap clearly, uh, in terms of social media. And they, they'll only see it is about 30 seconds. But that's what they're interested in. And when they start seeing it, they know that, you know, whatever player oh, he's the one that came from whatever place, grew up in a tough background, whatever it is. And that, that's interesting. Then you watch'em, then you want'em to win, and then when you've got an emotional connection like that, people wanna watch it and people will pay for it. And it, again, it's not rocket science. We've just gotta remember that and not rest on our laurels. And knowing that, you know, our members are gonna turn up great, you know, we, we need new people.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:mentioned that just about the, the women's game, and you're right in the the hundred. Is seen as a moment, and we've got the, you know, we've got the world 2020 in, in England over, know, this summer. We've talked about the economics of the men's game. What's the economics of the women's team?
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah, so there was a massive change last year. So before that. There were regionalized teams, al almost franchises, but not, not messing by a name, but they, they, so they, what they did, they put the teams back into the counties. Eight, fully professional around the country. The other 10, amateur, still amateur, but the ECB are paying counties to run them. You know, at the moment, I think, uh, professional counties get 1.5 million a year. Amateur counties get 250,000 all ECB funding to try and really grow that grain, grow the audience to make it sustainable. We've already seen a massive step change in the professionalism of it.'cause all of a sudden you could afford to pay a full-time coach a full-time, uh, starting structure get through in really great sport science support, all that kind of stuff behind the scenes. So it's already revolutionized cricket, but of course it's gonna take time to make it commercially salvageable really well. You look at the men's game, that's not so, the women's game isn't behind the curve on that. Interestingly, I think you can capture a different audience though, for women's cricket. I think it's, it's lower price, it's very family focused. You have a bit of fun with it and, and certainly in terms of the match presentation, you know, why have some, some, some fireworks, some music, that kind of stuff in the match presentation to make it more fun for kids. Almost the entry level, uh, product, but it will take time to become commercially viable. You know, it's, it, it's. Again, it, it's very, very tricky. Uh, but, but certainly it is a big opportunity because that's something that we've never done before. It's a whole new product. It's more cricket.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:there's a question I don't. Are the new owners of the franchises, the a hundred franchises, are they committed to having to keep the women's of those franchises now they've owned them.
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's part of the USP of the hundred whether it was deliberate or not, I mean, double headers were actually accidental. It was a, it was a thing of COVID and actually had them pay them double headers and all of a sudden it was like, wow, this, this really works. It's quite unique. So I think. They are both they, they have to and I think they'd want to as well because I think it is something that really brings in a different audience.
Mike Jakeman:The success of the WPL in in India would also imply to me that it would be a strange decision to shut down the women's teams in England, given the potential elsewhere and, and just how small the sums of money involved are as well.
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:The last thing I wanted to ask you about, uh, Pete, is the schedule. And so how problematic or otherwise that is a CEO level person trying to maximize gate proceeds,
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah.
Mike Jakeman:Do you, does this whole thing need to be rethought yet again and put into very distinct blocks where you do 2020 blast and then you do the one day cup, and then you do the county championship, and then the hundred that opposed to sort of Well, I, I don't even know the right way to call it. It's a complete mess, isn't it, frankly, at the moment.
Peter Fitzboydon:I think.
Mike Jakeman:Different reasons. Does it matter? I mean, it matters. I feel like it should matter as a supporter trying to understand who's playing when and plan my summer. Do you, do you think there's the potential to raise them of people coming through the gates if it's done in a more sort of coherent way? Or is this
Peter Fitzboydon:I, I could definitely, definitely, because it's really confusing. In fact, you know, when I was running, when I was running a curriculum, it was really difficult. Okay. In late July. What we play in then, is it county championship or is it blast? A bit of both. It's really confusing. So for a supporter who's not living it day to day, it'd be even more sort of confusing having lived. Trying to revamp the schedule along with the other 17 counties last year. I think the time is right just to, to to, to keep it as it is because it's, I think there was, someone said once that, you know, there are 18 different ideas of how the schedule should run. I wouldn't say quite 18, but not far off. Not far off. And there are lots of schools of thought that should you have it in blocks, should you have continuity? Should you play two competitions alongside each other? But. I think what the big thing is you need to know as a consumer, as a fan, what's going on. And at the moment it's just not understandable. Something that, you know, works really well in football is that appointment of view that, you know, you've got your super, super, you know, super Saturday, Sunday football, you've got Monday night football, and I think that kind of thing, that kind of branding would help so that you know, oh great, we got a, we got a, you know, Monday night fixture or whatever it is. And actually no. Every Friday we're gonna have a match in a blast during July, whatever. It's just so people really understand it. I think what didn't help and is it, is been rectified to an extent for this season, is a really disjointed that you start playing championship, then you move on to a bit of blast and then back for a bit of championship, then blast, and then more championship bit of one, and then the, the final for the blast is at the end. It it was just what So, and it, it wasn't good for the competition.'cause actually. As we pointed out earlier, you have different players, different times of the season, so you might have had certain players during qualification for the blast and they've disappeared for the final'cause they were off around the world somewhere. So it just wasn't good for anyone, the fan, for integrity of the competition. What I really liked that didn't get voted through unfortunately, was a A championship. A championship cricket. That wasn't just a league, it actually had this kind of best v best bid at the end. And I think that just gives that little bit of excitement, a little bit like rugby league, you know, when you, and actually in rugby as well, rugby union, proper rugby as well that you, you, you know, you play the league and then that sort of qualifies them for the. For the playoffs and then you have the winner. I quite liked that because I can imagine that getting further up BBC sport, to my analogy earlier, to actually get eyeballs on it, you know, and it's, oh great, it's the championship final or the, the pivotal game.'cause at the moment you could get halfway through a season and you already kind of know who's won, you know? And.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:the WSL Women's Football League, they, got, uh, exactly that this season for the first time and they've just hooked Mercedes-Benz in to be the official, you know, the partner of it. I agree with you actually. I also find the, the sort of August question, you know, I know they had, they did it because of the hundred, but. I mean, just last year, I mean we were sitting here looking out the window. Beautiful. So, you know, and you sort of think they should be playing more at this time of year and you know, from
Peter Fitzboydon:Yeah.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:to county games. Just think it's a weird sort of,
Peter Fitzboydon:You, you're right. And that's when kids are on holiday. So we're talking about my new fans at the moment, they're on holiday and parents like me desperate to find'em, something to do. And you think, oh, there's no county championship cricket. You know, again, of course there's bits and bobs, there's the one Day cup and things. But you, you haven't got your corporate, I, I would play actually all season, you know, would play the county championship in August. Yes. You've got some players away at the hundred. But we'll survive. You know, you, it's, it's not, it's not the be and end all. I think actually there's more merit in that than the opposite. So, uh, but as I say there, you know, we, we got some changes through, but probably not the bold direction than it might've been. But, but it was democratic, you know, you need two thirds of people rightly to agree to change something, and it didn't get that. So it defaults back to what we, uh, you know, where we are, which,
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:is like. So what are the 18 counties when they get together around a table, what, what's the sort of power dynamic? Is it obvious the sort of test match grounds versus the rest? Or is it more nuance than that?
Peter Fitzboydon:I, I think there are, there are certain teams and clubs that have more in common. Uh, but it is, it is definitely not of them and us. It is very, very collaborative. Everybody loves cricket. But ultimately everyone has. Different nuances to their business, whether it is host, non hosts, or urban non-urban. Their fans like County Creek. So everyone's got a slightly different model, you know, sorry, make a lot of their money through conferencing and actually, you know, and in London, Friday nights don't work so well. Actually, Thursday night's better. So everyone's got a slight different nuance to it, but actually really, really collaborative and, and equitable because every single county, big, small or middle, have a vote. And so, you know, ultimately you do need everybody to agree and it, it fell slightly shorter, the two thirds majority for, for bigger change. But, but that's the right thing is cricket owned by, by cricket. So, uh, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't argue against democracy.
Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner:Fantastic. Well, listen, Pete, thanks so much for your time. Really enjoyed that. That was a, that was a really interesting sort of insight into the game that you don't of, I don't hear very often. So, uh, thank you very much for that and cheers, Mike, for your
Peter Fitzboydon:Absolutely.