Unofficial Partner Podcast

UP534 Barney Francis on Media Rights and Wrongs

• Richard Gillis

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Barney Francis offers an insider's view of the sports media economy, drawing on his huge experience as MD of Sky Sports in the UK and EVP, Studios at IMG, the company's production business. The conversation spans new sports formats, piracy, streaming disruption, rights economics, the creation of The Hundred, the Premier League's move to in-house production, and the structural challenges facing rugby in the UK.  

  1. New Formats: Additive vs Disruptive
  2. Resilience of Incumbent Rights Holders
  3. Piracy: From Nudge and Wink to Cultural Norm
  4. The Netflix Value Equation
  5. Rights Fragmentation vs. Consolidation
  6. The "Home of" Strategy
  7. Sky's Consumer-First Philosophy
  8. Rugby's Structural Failures
  9. The Creation of The Hundred
  10. Premier League Production In-House
  11. Remote Production and Efficiency

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Hello, welcome to Unofficial Partner of the Sports Business Podcast. I'm Richard Gillis. Today's guest is Barney Francis, who is Executive Vice president of IMG Studios and was formerly managing director of Sky Sports.

Barney Francis

it's a really interesting step that they've made into six nations because they feel they can monetize that because there are enough number of households in this country. Can you do that for the Premier League? No. You don't have enough homes to pay the advertising yield that's gonna pay the Premier League, you know, billion and a half quid a year.

So it's a real insider's view of the sports media economy and the conversation spans new formats in sport, piracy, streaming, disruption, rights, economics, the creation of the hundred, the state of rugby, the Premier leagues move in house with its production. What that means. And the consistent thread is what it is that the fan wants and what does the money want, what do the financial markets want, and are they the same thing? And there are plenty more where this came from. So there's about 530 sports business conversations in our Unofficial Partner archive of podcasts. You can go there for absolutely no money and access there across all different sports, lots of different themes and subject areas. There is something for everyone. Also, if you're interested in this sort of stuff, the Unofficial Partner substack newsletter goes out every Thursday so if Substack is your thing, then you'll find us there.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I thought you were very good on the, uh, I saw you on the um, whatever that morning was, uh, ey Nick Keller's

Barney Francis

Oh yeah. Yeah. The sports industry thing. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah, so it, it sort of prompted me and I wanted to get you on for ages and, uh, so thank you.

Barney Francis

That's all right.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Cause I think there's so many different bits of the conversation and to your point, Varying degrees of people wanting to embrace the new whatever the new is. And there's a sort of interesting question about what that is and what the stories are,

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

know, and what, what the expensive stories are is looking at Baller League, and

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Germany, and thinking that story as, as there's been a lot of money bet on, gen Z behaviors.

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Shortening of things.

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

the sort of playbook that the Baller League represents, and this is sort of

Barney Francis

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

the Baller League, but it's about those sort of industry narratives that the, the money wants frankly. So it's quite

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

sort of moment. What do you make of, you know, the Baller League?

Barney Francis

So I mean, obviously it, it followed on from Gerard Piquet's,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

Version of it. Yeah. And I watched, look, I watched a bit of it on, on Sky this year. I get its place, I get its role. Everybody is looking for new sort of IP creation. Uh, I guess it comes down really, to what is the expectation, you know, what you're hoping to achieve. You know, as we're talking now, it is Super Bowl weekend.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

And it is NBC's turn and they'll hope to beat last year's 127 million households that watched it in the us you know, and if they can get 128, then hallelujah. You know, it'll be more cameras than ever before and et cetera, et cetera. So the big stuff is still attracting huge audiences. and so it, it. It kind of depends what the expectations are. You know, whenever I watched it this year, and obviously it was on, it was on Sky in the uk finding a clear window is really, really hard.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

hmm.

Barney Francis

So it tended to be up against football. It was sort of scheduled from 6:00 PM I think I'm right saying 6:00 PM till 10 in the evening, normally up against other live football. So, you know, what are the expectations all round, I guess from the, broadcaster's point of view, it is, here's something that's appealing to a new generation, influencers packed or seemingly a packed copper box, et cetera. But it's not trying to take away, clearly they're not trying to take away the football Arden football fan who's watching probably a live game.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

So, so from the broadcaster's point of view, it is, okay, here's something different and we'll offer up. Choice and Choice has been the name of our industry for the last 30 odd years. From a broadcast point of view, from the Baller League point of view, or the investors in it, what are they hoping to do to usurp the live game? Uh, live professional league football or cup football? No, they wouldn't have wanted that. But they just think there is a, there is another seam of a attention that they can, that they can grab and grab hold of and, and monetize. So,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

sort of feels out, you're right, it sort of feels additive, you know, to the,

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

'cause you've got this

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Again, it's that scenario where you've got a load of money, you know, sitting in

Barney Francis

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

that are popping up. It's

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

deployed. And then it's looking at the different types of. As you say, choice and Baller league, you put into one category with like, TGL Golf, for example, feels similar, you know, okay, it's not

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

take over the world, but it's not for me, but it's for someone, you know,

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

they've done their homework and, you know, there's a, there's a model there,

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you've of the themes of, I think the last six months to a year has been the sort of resilience of the incumbent rights holder, you

Barney Francis

Yeah, I think that's, look, I think that's, I think you're absolutely right and I don't think that's just the last year. I think that's been the last, I think since COVID, right. We can almost frame COVID as a a key defining moment, certainly in the UK market, but globally as well. Key defining moment where what we might call the sort of traditional leagues and formats, had another boon and had another, had another boost. It's interesting you mention TGL'cause I was actually thinking about that driving in this morning. T G's window, right? So it is a really interesting concept. And Mike McCarley, who sort of created it, you know, long, long standing, former NBC golf, uh, diehard specialist creator, et cetera. So it's a really good concept and it's been positioned right now as the season, both seasons are underway pretty much. You know, they're both, you know, the FedEx doesn't signal. Everyone takes a break till Christmas. Just as you know, the road to Dubai doesn't signal the end of the DP World tour. Things carry on, but it really feels in January, you know, we're in this sort of the Arab swing on the DP world tour in Qatar this week, on the US tour, you know, Brooks' back and, uh, that gives the the PGA tour sort of another boost. So the tours are really sort of up and running. And yet still that is the window for TGL because they're sort of up and running, but not everybody is playing in everything yet, you know, so, so by sort of March time, as we're heading towards Augusta, everyone's back on tour and playing stuff seriously. So the window for TGL is really quite. Narrow, but their, their ambition would never have been, let's stop people watching, uh, the tours. It's just, here's something that's additive, that's fun, that, of course has a virality to the, it's, it's digital and social after the live, uh, live event. Uh, and just, just creates different different or grabs different attentions. So, but, you know, but the heart of it is. The peaks, we know the peaks in golf this year will be around the four majors. You know, there's no ride or cup this year, obviously. It may be around the, the players, which is always the best, the best field in terms of the world's top 50. So, the same with football. You know, it is Baller League. Serves an audience. But, this weekend, well, last weekend's big game, I guess was Spurs Man City, uh, this weekend. Can't remember, have we got Liverpool? We've got Liverpool Arsenal this weekend. You know, but it is, it is those big games that really get everybody truly, truly excited. And I think, you know, if you hear. If you hear, hear the way that, uh, that sky talk, uh, at the moment, you know, my old, my old home, they, it is very much that since COVID live sport and fundamental, the heartland of live sport that we all know and love is what's really, really, really delivered. You know, cricket, we've got a world cup this year, but still everyone's talking about the ashes. As calamitous as the ashes might have been from a results point of view, still a still. Bigger in the UK audience than viewing to say IPL.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Well, I think there's a, again, there's a tendency, to overplay individual case studies, you know, and my point being. I think probably I'm over reading live golf and the, its relationship with the PGA tour and its, its inability to disrupt a major global sport with a new thing. And the

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

has responded. We're seeing it in rugby. The response of the, the big unions and federations has

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

fierce in, you

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

as R 360 comes into the picture or attempts to, so you've got that. The defense position and then you sort

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

okay, am I overreading live golf? Is that typical or is it out outright? In the same way, I'm probably in danger of Overreading the Baller League. individual case studies don't necessarily

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

the

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

is wrong or the story is flawed.

Barney Francis

No, no, that's right. You know, I've got a I've always, I've always said this, I've got a 20-year-old and 18-year-old boys who are sports mad, and I, I probe them all the time as to their viewing habits. My 20 year older student, you know, lives with another, another group. And I sort of interrogate their, their viewing habits, their views on piracy and all these sorts of things. And, uh, their,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

can pay a subscription or is it

Barney Francis

Well, well here's a point

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

to pay.

Barney Francis

right here. Here's a, here's a point, right? Which is, and I, I've, I've long held this view 15 years ago when you know, when piracy was really starting to create an impact. I remember talking to various, primarily chief execs and saying, you know, from a Skype perspective, we really need your, your help here. We need you to be telling your fans that ultimately this is gonna lead to loss of, uh, broadcast revenue that's gonna impact the revenue into each club, and therefore the players

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

the season Tokyo holders get to see. Right? So it is a, you know, it is a spiral into an abyss ultimately, and, and at the time, the, the clubs always felt that it was the broadcaster's issue rather than the, the club's issue. But at the time then 15 years ago, you know, piracy was a nudge and a wink in a pub. It was, Hey, Richard, you know, I've, I've got this thing I've heard of this way. You don't have to pay your subscription. Fast forward 15 years, I go to my, my, my son's. Sticks in, uh, at bath raises at university and chat with his mates and sort of say, you know, when you emerge with your degree and you hopefully, you know, there are some jobs out there and you will earn an income. How are you gonna consume your sport? And they'll say the same thing, right? It is, it is a fire stick or it is a illegal, illegal stream somehow that they'll, they'll access as a, as a cultural norm. Right. The nudge in the wink 15 years ago is now for the next generation a cultural norm. So that's the, the existential problem that sport faces is a, a new generation and therefore the generations that follow who don't expect to pay for anything

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I remember talking to Bill Bush about this. He was at Premier League for a long time and you know, he was sort of became this sort of global expert on this

Barney Francis

Yeah. That's right.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

and

Barney Francis

right.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you know, it was fascinating. I really enjoyed it. But he, so there's the sort of hard, this is theft, this is, you know, again, Richard Smore on, he gets very properly

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you start to, know, make. intellectual arguments for, this is real demand. You know, this

Barney Francis

yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

this is sort of no one pirates rubbish things.

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

a, it's

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

all of that, all of that stuff. And he, you know, and Bill Bush said, you know, that's just a middle class dinner party conversation. You know, this is theft and this is IP

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you have to go after this, you know, his proper criminality.

Barney Francis

that's right.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

interesting that cultural thing because you're right in that it's not. In the margins anymore. You know, you go to a, you know, I've got a mate who's an accountant, you know, very upstanding member of, you know, and he's in the fire stick goes, and away he goes. And you

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

well

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

happening there, then I don't quite know. But you said something I, I mentioned at the beginning you, you are. at, uh, the EY event. And you mentioned something about the, the sort of market taking care of the problem of almost like the super platforms. Can you just explain what you meant that?'cause you were saying that

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

gonna be a sort of that we are in a transition period here.

Barney Francis

okay. Well, I'll, I'll, I did say that, and I'll approach it slightly differently in sort of, uh, and asking a question of you is, do you hear of people saying that they pirate Netflix? Right?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

No

Barney Francis

No. Right.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I password sharing idea. There's a bit of that going

Barney Francis

Okay.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

which is sort of

Barney Francis

Okay. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

isn't it?

Barney Francis

That's right, but it's not a, because the entry point, the entry point to Netflix is relatively cheap versus premium sports subscriptions,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

and therefore the accessibility is much greater. People don't mind parting with 15 pounds a month versus say, a hundred pounds a month. Therefore, the the likelihood of people looking for, uh. Cheaper ways or free ways to stream sport work to be on Netflix is less because 15 pounds is a month is far more far more savory. And there's also a brand halo. With Netflix, it feels like value, right? When you turn on, they've got a. Brilliant user interface, brilliant selection of algorithmically driven search and navigation that suits your viewing habits and suits mine. And therefore, you feel it is a, it is a service that is very palatable and certainly really good value. And so it's the value equation. So therefore. You know, we're seeing Netflix, it's a really interesting, uh, approach they're taking to sport right now where you, you've seen the numbers that they drive for NFL on Christmas Day. You know, the, the most recent boxing obviously was, AJ versus, uh, Jake Paul, if you go back to Jake Paul versus Mike Tyson and the numbers they were doing, Katie Taylor. Uh, so they've driven some really interesting numbers there. They've obviously announced that they're gonna be doing Fury's comeback fight in April. So they're having, they're looking at sport in a slightly different way. They're not getting involved in leagues right now. You know, they obviously, they take, they take WWE Raw. But that's sports and entertainment, which is slightly different, but that's the only thing they've got right now, which is the, that has a regularity and a seasonality to it. Otherwise, they're, they're popping up and it, it's available to us, to us all. So their sports strategy right now is really interesting. The challenge, as we know, is it for the pay TV, sports subscription market, wherever you are, uh, in the world is. piracy is driving at the heart of the revenue generation for that, whilst the costs of all going up, because every federation, every governing body wants, wants more money. So we had a really interesting point in the sports economy and piracy got a huge role to play in that, and it needs to be combated. The problem is which side? Which side owns the pen on dealing with piracy?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

And. That Netflix sort of incentive in the market. Again, it's interesting because you start to say, right, okay, if that's what they want, you know, the evangelization of sport or whatever you

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

call it, how you then, if you are a governing body or a rights holder, respond. I mean, and again, I was trying to again, talk about overreading individual case studies.

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

is, you've got that sort of relevant uafa moment where they had to sort of come and get me to the stream and that like, okay, that's. aimed at, at Netflix or whatever, and it didn't, wa didn't happen

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

have sort of come in and got that, but what do you, what was your reading of that?'cause it, it, it, am I putting, sort of putting two and two together and making about eight there or are they, was that just their response? The way they're packaging their rights and they're looking at Netflix and saying, right, okay. Is this what you want or it dis zone or whatever

Barney Francis

Yeah. Look, look, I think, I think the answer to that is every governing body is looking at how it can drive more value. You know, as I said, as I sort of keep saying, since COVID the value of premium sport has, has gone up, but everybody wants to, every federation has a for due responsibility to, its, its its members, right? its clubs, et cetera, et cetera. So it's always trying to weak out additional value, additional revenue for that. So. Every federation, every league approaches it differently. You know, we saw, we worked very closely with MLS and I think it was four years ago, coming where they did that global deal with, with Apple. Which kind of made us all stop, uh, the, you know, in the industry. It's like, wow, okay, so here's a, here's a league that's clearly on the up with a sport where participation in, in grassroots is increasing as some of the other traditional American sports were facing, sort of grassroots challenges that are all, you know, that are well known. And they've done a deal with one of the biggest companies in the world. Uh, and that's suddenly really interesting. And there are, that hasn't, that's not happened many times with many, many properties. So, the jury's out on, on whether, you know, are we gonna be in, in 10 years time? Are we in a world where all the big sports are? are taken by the big streamers. I don't know. Is that the hope of all the federations? No, they're all, they all have different challenges. We talk to leagues and federations all the time, and of course, what, what most hope is that in their domestic market, in the primary market, that the, the broadcast rights are gonna go up. So you need competitive tension for that, whether that is the traditional P TV operators, some of the telcos who are still around, or the streamers, and then of course. What every league and Federation wants as well is an increase in its overseas revenue that it's driving, but that's a really, really congested space. So part of what we do is advise, you know, scrutinous scrutinous data capture on the likelihood of increased viewership that leads to increased revenues, et cetera. Uh, there's a lot of money in the system. But there's not enough money perhaps to meet everybody's, uh, ambitions and hopes and desires. And that's when leagues and federations then have to start addressing their cost base. you take the Premier League for example, the international market just keeps on growing. The domestic market's been relatively flat. I couldn't speak with absolute knowledge, but I would imagine that every Premier League club's wage bill has only gone up in that time. And that's been helped by the overseas revenue and the interest in the Premier League, which is, you know, which is unstoppable, whereas the domestic revenue's been pretty flat. That's the challenge for the that the Premier League will deal with at the next rights market.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah, and one of the, the sort of strategies is to, to break up the big number. So, if broadcasters don't want to take the big risk with a huge sort of outlay, they're carving that up. Which again gets back to the previous conversation about piracy. So one of the seemingly incentives of ping is actually the pain in the ass of my thing being across many

Barney Francis

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's, it's really interesting and it, and it, I'll just give you two really obvious examples, right. Which are very apparent now. So it's, uh, we we're speaking on the Thursday, it's the start of the Six Nations. And the Six Nations is just on ITV, right? So it is, it is in one home. And of course the, the debates over the last sort of couple of days has been around them taking. Ads picture and picture ads during, during play. But you know, they're free to wear broadcast that needs to monetize its asset. They've taken a risk on bringing it all under one roof. So no doubt where the Six Nations is gonna be, it's all on ITV, but they have to monetize it. So I have some, some sympathy against some of the criticism that's come their way. But interestingly, last week, uh, the FIFA Women's Champions Cup was in the uk and I had breakfast with Jessica, who's the commissioner of the NWSL. So the North American Women's, uh, soccer League, and, uh, they're, they're just thinking about their future. They're currently, across five different, broadcasters. and, and they, they've got good relationships with'em. All right? But is that, uh, is that right for their future? Should they be in one place? Should they be in two places? Should be, they be in five places. And, you know, I was out of the country Monday, Tuesday talking to another a DA European, uh, league federation where they're assessing their future and centralization of productions. You know, should they own the production piece, which is what makes it easier to bring in the, the pla the super platforms to the marketplace. Uh, anyway, we sort, we have this, we have this sort of debate, and right now they're in. Their rights are spread across a couple of broadcasters. And I just asked, the key question is, you know, what research have you done into what your consumers want? Right? And that's at the heart of, you know, you and I can pontificate and

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah. Yeah.

Barney Francis

postulate theories and all these sorts of things, but ultimately it's the. Consumer that matters most. So if I go back to NWSL split across five different licensees, and right now that means that most of their games are broadcast. Uh, if you're a fan of a certain club. Then you know exactly where you are gonna find them. So that, that's good. Bringing it all into one place. Does that make it better? Maybe, but maybe not, because maybe the money's not as good, therefore the development of the league, et cetera. So these are all the quandaries that, that we face at IMG, that all the leagues and federations face. But ultimately the heart of the sports economy is the consumer. And you know, without that consumer, back to the rugby.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

rugby fan knows for the six nations for the next five or six weekends exactly where to go.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah. Yeah.

Barney Francis

and, you know, ITV have to drive some commercial return on that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

How much sport do you think a channel needs to be the home of question?

Barney Francis

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

So,

Barney Francis

a really, that's a really good question.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

of it is necessary to to build a destination for a particular sport? And how many sports can sustain a home for broadcaster?

Barney Francis

Well, I think, I think if you take the world's biggest sport by league number of professional leagues and participation football, what, what would the home of football mean here in the uk? Uh, do you have to have every league my old place? Right. Do you have to have every league or do you have to have the, the leagues that matter here? So Sky obviously have Premier League, E-F-L-S-B-F-L. No longer has champions League, right? For, hasn't for the last, uh, three cycles, but is back with the, uh, Europa League at the next cycle. So sky the home of football. Well that's certainly the home of, uh, English and Scottish football. Is it the home of football? It's a really hard thing to, it's a really hard thing to argue. And of course. Back to the consumer and the customer. It is actually, it is actually for them to define whether they see something as the home of you know.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

'cause I sort of see it as a, from the outside as a, it's a marketing

Barney Francis

Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

know whether it's a strategic internal position as well. Whether actually there is more depth to it than just, okay, I get it. You know, there it's a sales tool.

Barney Francis

Yeah, it is a sales tool. Back, back to my old place. If you, if you go back to golf, you know they have the two principle tours, DP World Tour and the, and the PGA tour, and they have the four majors. They have the Ryder Cup, they have the Presence Cup. They don't have Liv, but you would still say right now, that's the home of golf for the uk. Market. There is one tour that they, one principle tour that they don't show. But other than that, you can pretty much get everything. And then of course they will through the digital and social, through all the assets, whether it be the URL and the uh, and the apps, they will cover all stories in all of golf. So therefore there's a real legitimacy to call yourself the home of golf in the uk in the UK market. So of course, you need to have critical mass. Right. If you and I were to start off a startup, a broadcast, uh, network today, and I hope you can bring the, the capital that will enable us to do that,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

of

Barney Francis

you know, how, how do we how could we sit here and strategize on, well, let's become the home of football. Now, we might be able to, I don't know their exploitation, but we might be able to buy the Estonian League in the uk and therefore we could call ourselves the home of football in the UK for the Estonian League.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

But it's you know, critical mass is obviously, uh, really important.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

One of the things, so on the bundle where we do with, you know, Murray and Yannick and, and it's sort of one of the themes that comes back. there's a question about do broadcasters have long memories? they hold grudges? Is there when you were at Sky?

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

and the case study that, that Murray quite often references is Sky and Rugby

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

know, having been for a period of supporting the sport, being the bank, doing the sky

Barney Francis

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

and then they go off else.

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

there's another, these are all cycles and they come back again.

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

What ha is, how does that play into that sort of process? Because everywhere, you know, you sort of assume it's a grownup corporate conversation, but there's also the, you know what, you stitched me up last time. I just wonder how long those memories last and whether

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

a sort of grudge against particular sports. Okay. Or you know, like Champions League and Sky.

Barney Francis

so first things first, so we'll, we'll come back to rugby. I'll give you the first, the first, the best story about that is, uh, Skye's a customer business. And therefore, every single day, every single decision is our about making sure Richard is getting value for his subscription.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Barney Francis

honestly, and I'm, I'm, I, I could not speak more positively about that as a, as a culture within the organization as a B2C. So, a senior sports executive came in to see me once and wanted to, wanted to sell something to Sky. And I said, not gonna, not gonna buy that. Why not? And I said, because that won't add a single subscriber. And therefore it's just adding cost to the base. So there might be a little bit of incremental value to you, Richard. You might have been interested in the sport and you might get a bit more, but actually, if I'm adding more cost to the base, then that leads to more cost for the subscriber ultimately. And this person turned to me and said, uh, you don't like my sport. That's why you are not buying it. And I said to him, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm just a, I just occupy the chair, right? I'm a custodian for Richard's money, and my job is to spend it as wisely as possible. It's got nothing to do with what I like. And I remember saying to him, if I made decisions for me and my interests, I'd have Aston Villa at four o'clock every Sunday. Right? Not, not that you could, right. The way that it's, it's packaged right, but it is not. And I remember saying to him, you, you've got to understand I'm not making decisions based on. Whether you and I like each other, whether I like your sports, that's not my job. My job is to aggregate the subscription revenue and spend it in a way that that best drives value for Richard, so that tomorrow he doesn't wake up and think, actually, I'm not getting as much value anymore. So that's the, that's kind of the precursor to, to the rugby conversation. So rugby. When we were thinking about moving from numbered channels to genre channels, uh, the obvious one that wasn't created was, rugby. there was a time early 2010s where I think we were contracting with. 14 or 15 different rugby organizations, you know, all the home nations, individually, uh, various leagues, various overseas organizations, et cetera, et cetera. And I used to used to say to them, you know, why do you, why do you coalesce rather than coming in? You know, you run a home nation, you are coming in the day after somebody else who runs another home. Nation's come in and. You want a pound more from me and you don't care If that means to take a pound out of, you know, the next person through the door, why don't you coalesce and create a calendar and create a system and a framework. You know, back then I, I would always say to world rugby, that's, that's incumbent on you to create that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Hmm.

Barney Francis

But rugby couldn't do that. And I felt at the time, in the early 2010s, part of the problem was the, the ultimate executives, the administrators of rugby at the time were. So subjective in their views and their thoughts. And because they were diehard died in the wool of rugby fans at heart. And therefore there was a layer of objectivity that wasn't there. And they weren't thinking about the consumer. They were thinking about, you know, just, just pull more money from broadcasters for your own federation. And slowly. Uh, to, to create a, when we move, move forward a few years in creating a genre channels for rugby channel to have existed. Sky needed one of, one of two leagues needed, either the domestic league Premiership rugby, or it needed, uh, you know, what we used to have in the Heineken Cup that that, you know, went through various different iterations and, uh, and I, I, you know, I, I've, I've never said this before, but. I can tell you now, the reason they weren't on Sky was not lack of appetite for Sky. It was decision making their end for whatever reason. And tho those reasons weren't always. Commercial. So Sky certainly didn't walk away from rugby. You know, we would've created a rugby channel because we knew from the consumer insight and data and the segmentation of audiences and sports fans that a rugby channel would would work. But at the time, uh, rugby chose different, different pathways. And I don't think rugby, you know, here we sit in 2026, I don't think rugby in this country has, uh. Has come out of that particularly well and needs to probably reassess and re-aggregate into one, uh, well, one or two or three homes and destinations. Right now I think rugby is spread, uh, quite far and wide in this uk.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

if it wasn't a commercial, so you're saying that it wasn't just about taking more money from whatever it was, BT at that point, what, was it about then? Why, why make that decision on there? What, what, what's

Barney Francis

Come on,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

decision?

Barney Francis

come on, come on. We've only just met each other, but sometimes look, see, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not here to sort of criticize and sort of lay sort of suspicious theories and what have you, but some, but sometimes organizations make make decisions for different reasons.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Okay. What, okay, so,

Barney Francis

it wasn't, it certainly wasn't skywalk away from rugby.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

well, I think it's interesting you're saying about there's, there's a, there's a couple of things. One is that it makes me think about CVC and actually what. The story of

Barney Francis

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

and rugby was, was sort of founding, like, I'm gonna answer Barney's question. There, we're

Barney Francis

Absolutely.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

of unity

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

got a big enough stick is the question. And they, they've

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

haven't got a big enough proportion or percentage of the, of the thing wield that sort of clout.

Barney Francis

I mean, I, I remember having this, I, I did have this very conversation with Nick from CC many, many years ago about you know, the ability of rugby to aggregate and drive meaningful broadcast revenue and interest from, from its fans and what have you, you know, even going wider than that. I used to talk to Ian Richie when he was in the big chair at the RFU there about, you know, together. You know, a broadcaster, let's say Sky and Rugby can lobby. Government. You know, part of the problem with rugby, I think in this country is it's, you know, it only, whatever the percentage is, 5% of schools play, play rugby. Therefore, it's a complex game. Therefore, how can you, how can you build audiences for a game that only 5% of kids play? You know, I didn't play rugby at school. I'll take my kids to the Six Nations. They played rugby at school. Uh, but they still ask me questions. I don't know. I don't know what the, what that penalty's being given for. There's a complexity to the game, which creates a bit of a barrier. So we'd say, you know, there's a, there's a broadcast opportunity here and a revenue opportunity here, but actually what, what? What we really need to work on is what's the, who are the next generation of subscribers from a pay TV point of view? Who are the next generation of the venture holders at, uh, at Twickenham? Well, if you're only pooling from 5% of the population every year, that sort of tricks over into, you know, back to my, my 20-year-old. As soon as he becomes a, uh, a worker and generates an income. If he hasn't played rugby, he's not gonna be part of that story. So it's really and I used to dis, I remember discussing that with, with with Nick as well, so. Whether they've got the, the leverage to aggregate rugby in the right way. I'm, I'm, I'm not sure. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not close to them now, but I think the, the fundamental problem lies actually a bit deeper than that, which is certainly in this country, which obviously you don't get in New Zealand, you don't get in South Africa where it's the number one sport. You know, it's not the number one sport in this country. And part of the problem with that is, is is grassroots and, and playing in schools. And we used to, you know, the one thing I would say. That I inherited at at Sky when I, when I took over that, that job, there was, uh, it, the criticality and the importance that we would place on developing partnerships with governing bodies and rights holders, such that they made sure they had a participation program because without young people coming through, without the sport being played at grassroots, then we are just, we're just playing around until the sport ends. You know, you never have that problem with football, but rugby has that problem. You know, cricket go back to the deal. The big five year deal that we did back in 2017, which created the hundred, part of the part of the issue there was a lot of ECB initiatives had rear. Had sort of worked to a degree but weren't driving, increase in participation. They had quick cricket and stars, cricket and these sorts of things. And I remember saying to Tom Harrison, who was ECB Chief Exec at the time, and I'd known Tom, we'd played cricket against each other at university and therefore we, and we played club Cricket in the same league. Uh, and it was.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

he?

Barney Francis

He was at Pennington. I was at Hamstead. Right? So it was in our, it was in our heart. Even he was a miles better player than me, let me tell you. Right? Even back at university. But in our heart was we wanna see more people playing the game and we actually absolutely understand how important that is for the, the next, uh, paying consumer. And that's what sort of stoked the creation of the the hundred. Let's make something that's really simple to understand, which is a bridge between you know. The sort of cricket that my boys played when they were seven and eight and Tess Cricket because it needed revitalizing. But that was that. You know, that's always been sky's way and many pay TV broadcasters all around the world don't just buy the rights you need to be investing in a participation program, which creates deep roots in this relationship and in this sport that everybody will benefit from in the long term.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

think the hundred is a really fascinating case study.'cause again, people sort of forget how Sky or you know, in the creation of it, and I think it's Sky Labs, did it come out of Sky Labs or

Barney Francis

Well, I mean, it was, yeah. Yeah, it was, it, it went into Sky Labs once we'd, once we'd done the deal. I do remember, I remember exactly where I was sitting when Tom rang and said, uh, you know,'cause we were talking about lots of elements to the deal, and he said participation, we've got this idea called the hundred. Bear with me. And instantly, I said, instantly I said to him, right, it's red versus blue. You start, you, you know, and I'm thinking about the explanation to young people, right? You, you start on naught and you've got a hundred balls. As one goes up, the other comes down. Right? It's as simple as that. Let's make it really, really simple. And it sort of took me back to, uh, 2001. Two. I was head of cricket at Sky at the time, England. We were on a tour. To Zimbabwe. I was sat in a hotel room in Hara with dear old Bob Willis and, uh, David Lloyd talking about what does English cricket need.'cause at the time, sky didn't, had had only one test match in the summer and the one internationals and all the domestic stuff. And we met up with Duncan Fletcher, who was coach at the time, and we were sort of talking about this idea around sort of T 20 and sort of, we took two ECB and Stuart Robertson at ECB At the time we'd already been thinking about a T 20. You know, clubs played it on a Tuesday, on a Wednesday nights, could it become a professional format? So, and then of course T 20 was born and then the IPL takes over, et cetera, et cetera. So it was with that sort of excitement that when Tom rang me and said, you know, got this idea about the hundred, it was, okay, so this can be. The bridge, the entry point for, for children, because the problem with T 20 in this country was great concept to start with. Started at, uh, each game starts at five 30, ended at 8 20, 20 20, funnily enough. And families were going to it and those first couple of seasons, and then it got kind of subsumed into the counties. They wanted to move it to day night games so they could sell more food and beverage, et cetera. And then it's kind of, it's lost its way. So the hundred would. Sort of do exactly what T 20 did at inception.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

and given that sort of how embedded. Sky are, I mean, I, we've got a moment coming up, you know, I think it's

Barney Francis

Hmm

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

the renewal for the, for the a hundred, I think,

Barney Francis

hmm.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

comes to market and it's a different landscape. Now you've got a lot of very rich

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

owners who are now

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

okay, to your point about, you know, fiduciary

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

they want. return for this massive outlay that they've, they've

Barney Francis

Sure. Sure.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

That's gonna be a bitter pill. If it doesn't stay at Sky. I mean at Sky how to the, to the point about grudges and you know, that's gonna be a very difficult thing if it leaves sky, presumably.

Barney Francis

Well look, the first thing I'd say is for any sport, any, any broadcast network, or telco or

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I.

Barney Francis

platform, any country around the world, the market always sets the price. Right. The, the, occasionally you will have someone paying a premium for total exclusivity, or there'll be something around a sport in a market where there's a real skew for, for whatever reason. But generally speaking, the market will always set the price. So all those investors in the hundred have would've done their diligence. They'll have looked at the opportunities that exist ahead, and the rights will be so sold in accordance with the market. You know, at the, at the, at the moment, it is a, uh, there are challenging markets around the world and there are buoyant markets around the world. If you look, you know, what have we seen over the last three or four years in the US market? Look at the NFL renewals. Look at the NBA renewals. Those markets that are. founded on broadcast networks with mass number of homes and therefore big populations that are driving huge advertising revenues. You can see, you can see why that sustains in this market. It's much more challenging, which is why, you know, high tv, it's a, it's a really interesting step that they've made into six nations because they feel they can monetize that because there are enough number of households in this country. Can you do that for the Premier League? No. You don't have enough homes to pay the advertising yield that's gonna pay the Premier League, you know, billion and a half quid a year. So when it comes to the ECB renewal in 28, it's more than just the, the a hundred. It's, it's everything. The market will set the, we'll set the price for that. You know, could it be skewed by an organization, let's call it, who might just want to take the hundred. And have a run with that. Of course it could. Uh, and that's what the, the new investors and owners will be, will be hoping for. But, uh, uh, but you know, it seems to me there's, there's a legitimacy to most of the investors in the league. They are long-term players. They are generally speaking organizations that are steeped in cricket. And clearly the, the thought is around global franchise cricket, et cetera, et cetera. I'm pretty sure they're not in for a QuickBook.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Let's talk about your day job now, because so the production business,

Barney Francis

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

again, this is my sort of peripheral reading. I was looking at the, some of the trends within it, and now the obvious question that you know is gonna get asked about Premier League taking production in house I sort of understand it, but I just do, just explain the rationale for it and what the difference is now or you know, in a year's time compared to the past. And do you think, are they, is it an outlier or is that gonna be sort of the new normal? Is that what other people are gonna say? Right. Okay. We need to do what the Premier League has done.

Barney Francis

So it's a really good question and it will take me a little while to, to answer it in full. So firstly, you know, we've partnered with the Premier League for many years at IMG, and they've been great partners and I'd like to think they would say the same. You know, when they leave, uh, at the end of this season, everybody's being very adult, very gracious, very complimentary about each other. It's really worked for us and it's really worked for them. The Premier League, back to what I was saying earlier about the desire of the desire of every federation to maximize its overseas revenue. You know, it doesn't. It doesn't take too much insight to see. Domestic revenue for the Premier League is just about now exceeded by overseas revenue. So if you think about that for a second, all of the, all of that money coming in from overseas, you know, the, what the Premier League are doing now allows them to be closer to all of their overseas licensees rather than coming through the conduit of of IMG. So they want to be closer to understanding. What their Japanese licensee wants, what their New Zealand licensee wants, what their, uh, their Chilean licensee wants. So they want to own the relationships with their overseas, uh, license holders because they're generating quite so much wealth. So that's, that's at the heart of, I mean, they can speak, I don't need to speak for them, but that's what I see is at the heart of their decision to do this. And the reason they can do this is because. Over the last couple of decades, we've supported them with the, with the production elements, and that has helped drive, that's helped. We played a small part in helping drive those revenues. You know, I always say, uh, Richard Smore got out years ago in advance of all the other leagues and would go around the world. Telling everybody about the virtues of the Premier League. And they very, for, very quickly, the Premier League become the number two league in most, in most markets. So all that groundwork has been done, that has driven that overseas revenue. And now they want, they want to own that, but there aren't many leagues. That are in that position that can do that. You know, it is, they've taken on a big cost, uh, big CapEx cost, building out those facilities, and they take on all those responsibilities. You know, if they, if there was a problem with the feed, uh, this weekend to a a far-flung territory in the world, then we take the accountability for that. Now, all that accountability goes to the premiering, so they're taking on the ownership of the responsibility, but the benefits are staying close to their, their partners. I don't think there is a. Football league, certainly in the world that's in the position to do that right now. So we, as you know, we, we, uh, we're partners with the football league, we're partners with the MLS and SBL, where we centralize the production of, all of their live games and their additional content. So that's a big cost. It's a lot of people. There's a lot of complexity, you know, as we are, as, as my part of the industry is moving from big old. Outside broadcast trucks, loads of cameras, satellite distribution, et cetera. We're moving to, obviously everything is fibered. Uh, we're trying to remote produce more and more, so we're not sending people on location all the time because of the cost of that, uh, sustainability reasons, et cetera, et cetera. So the world is, our world is changing really, really quickly, and AI's helping advance that. You know, I always describe it as from the pitch to the eyeball. There are so many links in the chain. To get that, that that match broadcast so that you can watch it in your, in your lounge. And every link is a cost. And right now nobody wants to, everyone who wants to spend less. So how do we use technology and advancement to get rid of some of those links? But it's still complex. So we spend you know, our job when we partner with leagues is to help them grow by doing a centralized and increasingly remote production, which allows them to go to the market and say, we've got a complete solution for you. You know, if you are a super platform, who thinks there's an opportunity for football in a certain territory? Well, here's the complete solution that is created for us by our partners at at IMG studios. Yeah, because that's a big undertaking for any league to do, and I think, you know, the Premier League has proven that they can do it, but they're doing it at a stage where they're generating billions of overseas revenue, so,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

the, so from a an IMG perspective,

Barney Francis

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

what's the difference? So when between you and the competitor set? So if, if,'cause there's a danger of efficiency being,

Barney Francis

Hmm.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you know, cost being another thing. So there's a race to the bottom. that is

Barney Francis

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

question there. So I'm trying to work out I am. The client in the

Barney Francis

yeah, yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

What's, what's the difference? What's the differentiation and how do you build value? What the, what the nature of value is, I suppose?

Barney Francis

yeah, that's right. So, look, I mean, first things first is if you get it wrong,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yes.

Barney Francis

you, there are things out of your control, right? Sometimes there is technical interference or. Climatic interference that can get in the way. So that can happen to,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I.

Barney Francis

to anybody. But doing stuff on the scale that, that we do, where we are constantly working to, uh, improve the quality and reduce the, and reduce the cost. You know, we have a, we have a scale now that we built out that enables us, uh, to do that. We, you know, next month is the fourth year of fourth season of MLS that we're producing. And, uh, we're starting to remote produce some of the, uh, some of the, some of the matches. And the best way I can describe that is, uh, let's say as a game in Vancouver, where we will have eight to 12 cameras and we will rather have everybody on site. We'll have camera people, technical engineers, but all those camera signals are gonna be fed back to, uh, 7 0 7 Stanford, which is our sort of TKO home, the WWE headquarters there, where those cameras are fed into some hardware, which we call simply live. That's fed back to Stocky Park where one of our football directors will direct the game. Right? If you think about, if you just think about that for the sec, a second, we'll have a very experienced football director in, in West London who is directing a game out in, you know, the most northwesterly point of MLS in Vancouver. Driving efficiency with less people on site. You know, there's, as a, the latency is negligible to deliver all those, those signals back to a very experienced director in the UK who's directing the, the feeds and that is being delivered to the Apple platform. You know, almost instantaneously that director. Previously might only do the Vancouver game, that director now can do that game and maybe do another game in a few hours time, or certainly do another game tomorrow. So we, you know, that that scale and critical mass in our expertise in doing that is probably what sets us apart. Now, if you were interviewing. Or chatting to any of our competitors. Now they'd say they do, they do similar. But it is about how do we drive, how do we drive value for our, our partners in bringing the cost down, but improving the quality.'cause you know, nobody, no league or federation of any sport wants to go to the marketplace and say, we're selling you something that's worse than it was last year. It's always gotta be better. So it's perpetual improvement.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

It's, it's interesting the the remote. Production

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

they're sort of, as a cricket fan, I would say it, it was, it was interesting the TNT doing the ashes from London

Barney Francis

Yeah. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you know, I assume that technically it's all fine, but there is a sort of, almost like a image question or a, an intangible. It's something about, okay, well they're not putting their heart and soul into this. They're just doing it. And I noticed that the BBC are doing the World Cup from remotely, ITV are doing it from New York. So that's obviously a. A trend that is going to continue. again, people like me moan about lots of things, but there's a sort of sense that, oh, they're not there. Do you know what I mean? It's like that there's an intangible there that I think I'm now blaming the broadcaster for not taking my sport seriously.

Barney Francis

Yeah, look, I think every sport, it's really hard to come up with a single conclusion for that'cause every sport is, is different. I remember first time going out to Augusta to see the Masters when when I was at Sky and the broadcast compound is quite some way away from the course. You've got obviously the 18 holes, the beautiful Garden of Eden, and then you've got the par three course, which is the most stunning. Golf course prior to seeing the other one. And then the broadcast compound is beyond that. And I remember going down into a commentary booth, which was, uh, in the basement where, uh, it would've been Bruce and Ewen at the time, who, uh, you know, our regular lead commentary team. And they sat in a bunker looking at, looking at monitors and graphics and what have you. And I remember thinking. Of course everybody wants to be at Augusta, but actually from a commentary perspective, they don't, they don't see anything other than what you and I see at home as a viewer. Whereas in cricket, uh, and with my experience in cricket commentators, I always used to say to them, you've got to commentate on what you see on your screen, because that's what Richard's watching at home.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Hmm.

Barney Francis

Whereas the inclination is you're in a commentary box. You've got a monitor in front of you when you're holding the mic, I can tell you now, this is exactly how it happens. Every commentator is talking over the monitor, but when the ball is bold, short pitch ball and batsman a swivels and, and pulls or hooks it commentator's looking. Over the monitor out on the ground to see where the ball's going. Is there a fielder right? A deep leg, uh, at deep square leg, right? Or can you see from the trajectory that that ball is gonna be disappearing into the stands? They will do that and then come back to the monitor. So there are some sports where I think the remote commentary is, is absolutely fine, and others where. Even though you have to commentate o off what the viewer is seeing at home, there is a wider perspective that allows you to to tell a, a cleaner story for the, for the viewer. So it's, you know, every sport is, every sport is different. You know, the Super Bowl this weekend. Every commentator of course.'cause of the, the, the, the scale of the event will be on site, whether it be for NBC, whether it be for NFL network and, uh, and, and where else, you know, for the rugby. I don't know. Well, I guess we're, it'll emerge, but I would imagine the commentators will be, uh, on site. So, but you know, it is easy to send. Uh, for ITV to send their commentators around Europe. It is very expensive to send your commentators down to down to Australia. Would I have made the same decision? I'm not gonna answer that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Will you ask, will you asked the question? Uh, dear. Right. Okay. Well, listen, I, I, go on forever, but I've

Barney Francis

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

time. The a question about what's your favorite event? Is it the ma I'm, I'm assuming

Barney Francis

Oh, uh, what's my favorite event? Well, I would say the, my three favorite events that I've witnessed firsthand would be England Winning the World Cup in that dramatic super over 2019 at ls.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yep. Yeah.

Barney Francis

Cricket World Cup. Uh, actually I'm gonna name four in my three. Secondly, I would say Medina Ride a Cup. That incredible coming from behind just because, you know, the, the, the one thing that is indefinable in our industry is momentum. I was having this conversation with my kids at the weekend, momentum in sport and how things change, right? And we just kind of knew, you know, head of Pulse's last. But on the Saturday it was kind of just something changing. So when we turned up on Sunday, it was, well, we're gonna win this. Right? Which was crazy. My third will be, uh, AJ Klitschko at Wembley, Dr. Dramatic fight, but also culmination of a strategy that I'd put in place. I'd always been a boxing fan, and back in sort of 2009 when it took over, boxing was in a bit of a mess. And then. He made the choice to just partner with Match Room and then rebuild boxing into bigger stadiums. And then AJ wins the gold medal in the Olympics in 2012, and then when he beats Klitschko. That's kind of the culmination of, of a strategy that was really working, but also I'd, I'd love, I've loved boxing all my life, and then the, the fourth of my three. Was, uh, Aston Villa won by Munich nil last year in the Champions League where I took my son George, who not through any pressure of me has become a Villa fan. And it was just an incredible night, right? And of course, I remember as a kid watching Villa. Beating by Munich one nil to win the Champions League or the European Cup in 1982.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

with,

Barney Francis

And there we were. There, we were on a, I can't remember whether it was a Tuesday or Wednesday night last year, Villa Win one, nil. And my 17-year-old at the time turns to me and says, dad, this is the best night I've ever had at Villa. And I turned to him and I said, son, this is the best night I've ever had at Villa.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

that's a low

Barney Francis

So,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

be fair.

Barney Francis

oh, stop that. Who do you support?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Tottenham,

Barney Francis

Right. Okay. Well.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

all day.

Barney Francis

Yeah, well come back when you've got a star on your badge. So, yeah, they're my they're my things, but you know, I love, I, I love, I love all sport. I love gonna Wimbledon every year. Paris Olympics, I just decided just to take myself as a paying consumer one day to the athletics track. Love that. You've heard me say how, you know, disappointed I am with where athletics is right now because it's the, it's the, you know, it's kind of the oldest. Discipline in the world, run, jump throw. And I think from a participation perspective, you know, in a, in an age where we are more conscious of inclusion than ever before, it literally has something for everybody to participate in. Whatever body shape you are,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Mm.

Barney Francis

it has something for everybody. So it dismayed me. So I love going, I love watching. I love it all.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

That's a good, good place to end.

Barney Francis

Yeah. Good. Thank you.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

loves it all. That's the headline.

Barney Francis

There we go. That's true. It's absolutely true.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Brilliant. Okay.

Barney Francis

Thank you. Enjoyed that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

cheers for that. And, uh, come back.

Barney Francis

Anytime. Good stuff.