Unofficial Partner Podcast

UP539 Spin Class: PR lessons from Kirsty Coventry, Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Igor Tudor

• Richard Gillis

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Three highly experienced communications professionals join Richard to dissect some recent high profile PR gaffes.

Guests:

Henry Chappell, Founder and CEO of Pitch Marketing Group

Neil Daugherty, Senior Managing Director at Teneo

Jon Tibbs OBE, Founder and Chair of JTA Group.

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Hi there, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner of the Sports Business Podcast. We are talking Spin Today, PR Comms, dunno. We'll call it what you want. I gather together three very high-end practitioners, Henry Chapel, pitch Marketing, John Tibs, John Tibs Associates, And Neil Dockerty of Teneo, and I got them talking about Kirsty Coventry, Jim Radcliffe, and for reasons I can't remember, Igor Tudor, the Spurs manager. It was good fun. Hope you enjoy it q the music.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you know, when you have an idea and you think, oh yeah, I've actually doing that, so we're gonna have a, we're gonna talk, spin? Is that something you, you, do, you bridal against the word spin? Is that, can I use that? I, I'm thinking about spin class as the, uh, title of the year podcast. Henry, you, what do you think about the word spin? Are you

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

No, I'm not, I'm not a fan of that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

No.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

I think we could come up with a better name than that, can't we? I

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

don't know. I think know

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

reputation's better, probably.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Oh, yeah. But that's a more,

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

I, I, I, I prefer facing a pace attack than, uh, spin. So

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

that's a more expensive word, isn't it? Reputation.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

That's why we prefer it. Richard,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

what was wrong with pr? Why? Why do you do away with PR a lot?

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Is it done away with?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Well, you know, you know, people sort of don't often refer to it unless it, you know, it's, journalists talk about PR Spin Doctors.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I think Spin Doctors went out about 20 years ago. Really? Post, um, post Alistair Campbell. But, uh, but, uh, I'm sure I also

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

think Peter, Peter Mandelson is not very on Vogue at the moment as well.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

That's for sure. That is for sure

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

who's doing the industry in enormous phase. It's marketing, isn't he Marketing the, uh, reputation business. So I should introduce you and thank and thank you for, uh, for coming on Henry. Chap, I haven't seen you for a couple of days. We saw each other in a queue trying to get into Cheltham. Welcome.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

We did. Yeah. Hi Richard. Good to see you again.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Did you win? Did you win last week?

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Well, racing was the winner last week.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

See, you're spinning already

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

quite lit. Quite literally. In my case, racing Patty power, anyone who take my money was the winner. Um, I

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

kept seeing, I kept seeing photos of you with famous people.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Well, I was in the paddy power box and they, they brought all and sundry with them, so it was quite an eventful afternoon. And it was, it was good fun.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Chilham is like one of those things that, and we won't dwell on this, but you see more, there's a sort of brand of rich. Person at Cheltham that you don't see in on mass very often. They are sort of the landed gentry posh, and there's a load of people who dress like them. And there's a whole Peaky Blinders thing, you know, it's a sort of Guinness Festival of booze as well. But there is also, at the center of it, there is this posh Irish and British sort of contingent, and they're fascinating to watch, I think, as a sort of constituency.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

You know what I mean? Yeah. There's, there's, and there's a, there's a lot of serious money at Shelton Race course and around the festival. It's, it's, you know, obviously it's a it's a huge industry now that, you know, the top end of the National Hunt game,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I do like it. I, I know I, I, I do enjoy it. I haven't been, I, it's the first time I've been for years and I, I really. Neil dti, I always say that you've got the best balcony in the sports industry overlooking, uh, St. Paul's. You're not, are you there at this point?

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

No, I'm not there at the moment. I'm in Campbell well at the moment. So yeah, as, as you can tell, Less glamorous. I was supposed to be in Qatar last week, um, as John will probably know, but for obvious reasons, uh, events intervene. So I'm, uh, I'm confined to barracks in, uh, in London at the moment. But yes, so we, we've got a very nice office where we had that, uh, event last year about, uh, India's decade of sports. So, um, yeah, very welcome to, it

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

was very nice actually. I really enjoyed, there's a, there's a lovely sort of on a summer's evening, I could, I could find myself there. Very nice. John Tibs, I'm gonna start with you Doen veteran. Do we hear veteran?

Jon Tibbs, JTA

You hear veteran?'cause I played, uh, golf today in a vet's competition. So yeah, we do hear veteran. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

So the setup of this is John, I've given you a story and it's Kirsty Coventry. I picked you because you were in the room when it happened, and we'll play a bit of the press conference. But it was really good theater, wasn't it?

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I think for the IOC it probably was less good theater uhhuh. Um, but for, for those of us in the room and for the media in the room, in the press conference, it's certainly. Played out quite theatrically and particularly afterwards, uh,

Speaker

Yesterday, the German president, head of state let it be known that he's not in favor of, um, bidding for those games because he sides, um. Well, historical problems dating back 100 years to the 1936 games. Do, do you have an opinion on that? I mean, we had the discussion here about the, the, the t-shirts that were being sold in the Olympic shop. I, I believe the link has been taken down so those can be bought anymore, which sort seems to indicate that there is a historic problem. So, um, yeah, what's your opinion? Thank you.

Speaker 2

Um, so. Per frankly, and I'm looking at my team'cause I was not aware that, uh, Germany had made any comments in and around 2036. Um, so I don't really have an opinion on, on it.

Speaker 3

We can take a look at it and come back to you, but obviously we try to monitor most global press, but I hadn't, hadn't seen that. So we, we'll try to come back to you. Okay. Um, let's do, um, Julie Macker there and. Fumi and then we'll, yep. Fine.

Speaker 4

Hi, Juliette Macker at the New York Times. Hi Kristy. Hi. Um, this question is for you. Um, we reported today that a, a known whistleblower informed, uh, wata weeks ago that the current chair of the Russian anti-Doping Agency was directly involved with the widespread doping regard, you know, surrounding the Sochi games. And, uh, we have information that the IOC was aware of this, and I'm wondering if it, uh, um, if it's a big concern for you or the IOC as Russia is being welcomed, welcome back to the Olympic and the, uh, Paralympic fold.

Speaker 2

Okay. I really looking at my team and maybe someone needs to be dismissed because I'm not aware of that either, so, um, I, I haven't,

Speaker 3

hadn't heard it, so,

Speaker 2

yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

shall I give you a short

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Please

Jon Tibbs, JTA

do, uh, reprise of what happened, I mean, in, in essence it was the wrap up press conference for Milano Cortina 2026, the Winter Games and the games had gone way better than anyone had expected. And therefore, this press conference, I think the media in the room, which was about I would say 25 or so key media from around the world, including all the wires and New York Times and, and a bunch of other BBC were, were there, uh, we're expecting really the IOC to Eulogize about how successful it had been. And it was Kirsty Coventry's first Olympic games of any sort. This was a win tradition, but it was her first games as president of the IOC, and she was widely expected to, like I said, to. To eulogize over the huge successes way better than most people had expected. And she came into the room looked the part very relaxed, you know, quite casually dressed, but looked, you know, in very good shape and gave a, a good opening remarks to the press conference. And she, without notes, she spoke without notes, as she often does, which is quite an extraordinary feat for some of the challenges that she has. And then came the the follow up question and answers. And the first. Couple of questions I think were fairly benign. And then there came the first question from a German, uh, journalist, or from a journalist basically saying, are you aware that Jenny Infantino, one of your ISE members is wearing a cap supporting maga? And clearly was there at the Donald Trump's Board of Peace and endorsing his campaign for reelection. Kirsty looked around the room and basically said, well, in essence what she said was I'm not aware of that. But then gave, proceeded to give her an answer on the IOC values on peace. Subsequently, there came another question which she was also caught unawares on. This one was from a German journalist who basically asked her, are you. Aware that the that the president of Germany has said that he doesn't feel it's appropriate for Berlin or Germany to go for the 2036 Olympic Games bid because of the a hundred year anniversary with the Nazi Olympics in 1936. This time, Kirsty looked a little bit more annoyed and looked around the room at her team and said, no. Again I'm not aware of that, so I can't give you a comment or an opinion on that, in essence is what she said. A couple more questions came, and then there was a question then from the New York Times who basically said are you aware that the, uh, head of anti-doping in Russia had, has now we found evidence that she had been involved in the coverup of the Russian doping scandal? At the Sochi Games and therefore shouldn't be in place. And this time Kirsty looked a little bit more exasperated and looked around the room and in essence, struck her shoulder and said, look, again. Uh, you know, I, I can't answer that. Perhaps someone from my team, my communications team needs to be dismissed.'cause I, I don't know that I'm not aware of it. And, uh, and then the rest of the press conference sort of draw, draw to a clo a close. There were a couple more questions, which she answered fine. But by the end of the press conference, clearly the, the key media in the room had decided that this was just not not a good look for the IOC, not a good look for the president of the IOC and had decided that they were gonna make really go for this and go for her in their sort of, um, social media comments and. General pieces, and it became a big a big story for a few days in the national Anglo-Saxon Media in particular, the German media, but not, not elsewhere around the world. It became an even bigger story in the echo chamber of the PR industry in the Anglo-Saxon world where it re, you know, it resonated on for at least another week, uh, with everyone saying it was dreadful, uh, that she wasn't well prepared or they blamed her team or they blamed the way that she had remarked that someone needs to be dismissed. And, and it became a real sort of, people were boasting saying, this is gonna be a case study for the PR industry for years to come on. How not to run a press conference.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Um, so I'll, I'll pause, I'll pause there, but I obviously have some context and thoughts, but I've, I've got two experts on on as well. So I will, uh, I'll give you my context and thoughts, um, in a minute.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Let's, so Neil, let's bring you in at this point. What,'cause again, John's right there, and thank you John, for setting that up. It's really good. The the sort of second bounce became about the it within the PR sort of industry, but also it did hit the back bag got the daily man in front of me, which made hay with it. But what was your initial response?

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

So I think context is, is everything. So John was in the room that was a much longer discussion at the end of a very successful games Ty Coventry's first games as IOC President under, under a new era. And actually, I, I just watched it back today again, and, and it's been clipped up and it's actually in the reverse order to the way the questions were, were asked anyway. So I, and, and I think it is that phrase that, that I, I was not aware that makes her look unprepared, however prepared she was, because frankly, there could have been, you know, 1,001 questions in relation to the Olympics, which is a pretty complicated event. More so even in the World Cup in terms of the number of moving parts involved in the Olympics and the different political movements and the logistics of it, et cetera as well. So I, I think like, yeah. It was three things that came in quick succession, but probably in the context of a, a journal tell us.'cause he was there a, a half hour, hour long press conference, but it was clipped up. And then it's those, those three I was not aware as in short succession plus then the sort of slightly waspish comments around maybe somebody should be dismissed and I don't even know if that was intended in such a way or was it intended to sort of slightly diffuse the Yeah, the, I was wondering

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

was it

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

a joke? I mean, it's hard, but it didn't work. It didn't come across as a joke, even if it was intended as such. So I look hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think you probably look at those three things there and that gives you a, a broad view of like how wide and varied that role is that as somebody who's figurehead of the IOC and has to speak to both. Sporting competition. You had athletes protesting against the Ukraine, ongoing Ukraine, Russia war during the com competition, which I thought she handled very well. And then you've got everything from the anniversary of the Berlin 1936 games through to Sochi and doping, through to Gianni Infantino. And we often forget that Gianni Infantino is actually the head of an international federation as, as part of the Olympic movement because football does sort of eat all before it. So I, I think it was a product of the fact that it actually got clipped up and went round the world in a very shorter form. And I think that was very digestible to people who are probably not following the context closely. And then it becomes a sort of gotcha moment and, and people who are, um, probably even less informed than me, than weighing in and, and commenting.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Before I go to Henry John, just very quickly, do you think it was a joke? Was it a joke? Was it said in that tone?

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I'm almost certain, and, you know, inside information that, that I have to emphasize that the IC is not a client, but, but we, we obviously are well connected to many of the, uh, the folks on the inside. And I'm almost certain that she certainly meant it as a, as a more of a lighthearted remark than it came across because of her body language and the way she said it. It didn't come across that way, but I'm, I'm absolutely certain that she meant it to be more lighthearted than it was.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Okay, Henry.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

But just on the point of that, she probably can't fire anyone now having made the jokes, everyone's jobs probably are having made, made a joke because he has to prove it was a joke. So therefore it gives Mark Adams and James PA free bowl probably for the next, for at least another year. But, um. I think the thing that was sang was, I think I, I commented this to you, Richard but I remembered her speech at the opening ceremony being really good and I thought it was fantastic. And she really brought a different personal human touch to that speech. Uh, and obviously the opening ceremony generally was, was sensational, wasn't it? It was really good. But I thought how refreshing to have a former, a athlete woman standing there in front of the world, telling a, bringing a little that personal touch and really connecting with the athletes. And, um, I'm not an Olympics expert, but I just as a punter seeing that, I thought that was fantastic. And then that's why I thought it was sad that she'd sort of tripped up pretty straightforwardly here because, you know, she should have known some of these things. There's no doubt about it. You really to, to be. Oblivious of all of those elements, you know, was not really acceptable to be a leader of the IOC and not to know any of that's going on, I think. Right. Um, and then secondly, you know, it is part of the job to be an exceptional communicator and being able to handle those situations. So she could have swerved it, she could have swerved it by sort of not just repeating herself quite so obviously. And then I think it was a se all things were serious matters, but I think trying to make light of serious matters and making a joke of something is never really a good idea when you are sort of backs against the wall a bit in front of the press. So,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

yeah,

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

I think it's a, it's a real basic lesson is you just, you're gonna have you, you're not looking good, but don't, you're not gonna look better by trying to make a joke, particularly about somebody's, you know, employment status.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I think joke is a bit strong. I don't think, you know, I would think it was meant as a bit of light humor rather than. It, I mean, joke is, is a harsh word in the, in the way that you've Yeah. Described it, Henry and I, I, I get, I get that, but I, I think for context, Kirsty had had a really great games up until that Yeah. This was the day before the end of the games. And up until that point, she'd had a unbelievably great games. You, you remarked about the opening, um, speech and then just generally the way she communicated and moved around, uh, the various widespread, um, venues. Uh, talking to athletes everywhere she went she empathized and communicated on the right level to athletes. And then of course, the way that she handled the Ukrainian helmet, um, mm-hmm. Crisis which was a pretty major crisis. And actually going up and discussing and informing the athlete personally, and then the way she emotionally showed her true values at that informal press huddle up on the upper cortina. You know, all of that came across incredibly well, and that particular crisis was a real crisis and,

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

yeah,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

evaporated in 36 hours because of the way she handled it. It was absolutely superb. Then this comes along, which. Isn't a real crisis, but it went on for longer. Um, it's not sort of, the world is still turning. The ISC is still functioning perfectly well, and most people in the world, even including the Olympic family, are completely unaware of most of what we're talking about. So I think for context, you know, it, at the end of it all, there's an end of games, uh, report. I, I still think Kirsty came out very high indeed, but this was, yeah. A bad day in the office for her. I think she'd be the first to admit that. And I definitely think lessons will be learned in the IOC on terms of comms systems and processing systems and processes and, uh, and also the way that perhaps Kirsty in future handles things that she's not aware of in press conferences, because it does happen. We all have clients. Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

So I think that one of the, one of the questions I think, and I'm probably asking the wrong group, wrong group, is when is it, when should we blame? Comms person because we mentioned Mark, Adam off

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

stage. Is the answer to that, Richard?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Well, or is it

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

if you're gonna

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

cause Well, I mean, I think there's a, the question of she should have been briefed and presumably that's their job. And I'm, you know, and again, this is a daily mail response, 420 K salary, that's almost podcast level money. You know, we're, we're talking, there's a, at what point there is a responsibility? cause the pr, I mean, I was reading PR week and I was reading, you know, various things that people jump onto this and say it's, this is a disgrace, throwing, you know, their team under the bus, blah, blah, blah. How they're gonna then manage The team going forward, can you ever trust her ever again? If you are in the PR team? These types of questions are all fine, but actually it is their job and I think it's fair to push and point fingers and say you haven't done your job.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Yeah. The debate is, that should have been raised in front of the media. Uh, I think Henry's point is that in general, in the PR industry, you would expect and hope that your clients have the skillset, especially if they're leaders, uh, would have the skillset to deal with the things that they're not quite prepared for or, uh, or not genuinely not aware of on this occasion. I think, and I'm sure she has covered that in her training. Media coaching that she's undertaken. But on this occasion, I think for whatever reason, it just got the better of her. And, uh, and, and she made a mistake. And I think it's one in the PR industry that will live for a long time. But I think the rest of the world has moved on 10 volt since then.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Absolutely. And, and I also think one of the hardest things, some of the best natural communicators do it naturally where you can deflect something like this with humor, but it's very hard to judge that and pitch that at the, at, at the right level, I would say. And look the reality is we don't know what went on inside the sausage making machine. It could have been that those briefing notes were produced and not read, could have been that they weren't, weren't produced. So, um, but you do the post-match analysis once you're back in the changing room, I think is the important point.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

And what, what I would say is add to it because she had did have such a good games overall.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Yeah.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

And indeed it was such a fantastic success, wasn't it? The games. And you know, in today's world, it's weird, you know, she's much better known now than she was before and you know, so it gives her an opportunity and she build up to la you know, for her to, she is a good communicator, you can sense that she comes across really well. And so it will be an opportunity for her to get, tell the, the IOC story now because there'll be more interest in her because of it. And at the end of the day, she, she didn't do much wrong. She just wasn't aware of some issues that she should have been aware of, but she wasn't at least say, an extraordinary busy time. So,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

yeah.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

And, and, and most people have sympathy for, you know, being in front of the world press where they're all going, you trying to trip you up. And none of the stories that she was being discussed were of her making. You know, they were, they were secondary or historic issues or other things that were not front and center. So I, you know, it's, it's it is a storm in a teacup. It's one of those storm in a teacup that it just, that lingered on, as you say, the LinkedIn echo chamber, I'm sure made an absolute meal of it. But I think you ultimately, it's an opportunity can, she can use it as an opportunity Yeah. To, to come across as you know, you know, as a leader with a real human touch moving forward, which I think she genuinely does have by the looks and sounds of things.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Can I ask a question to the group? Do we think that she was given less leeway for being a female leader in that context as well? If, if Tom was back, had done the same thing, would've had the same reaction?

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

I think Sam. I think sadly, yes. I think that's the state of the situation. It's

Jon Tibbs, JTA

well in, in PR parlance. Well, that's a hypothetical, so we won't answer that one.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

There

Jon Tibbs, JTA

you

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

very good.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

But what, but what,

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

that's not spin on, that's under arm bowling for you. But,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Yeah, I mean, final word for me on, on it is that she's a really Kirsty coventry's a really tough cookie. Despite what people may have said and she'll come through this as a stronger and better person for it. And uh, and like I say, the media have moved on. You know, there'll be a few that will remember it when it comes to our next press conference, but she'll breeze through that. She'll be much better prepared. And on her a game from now on.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

so a couple of you mentioned natural communicators and leadership communications. I just wanna just push that. A stage further because what does that mean? Because to me from a journalist perspective, you are looking at it and saying, I don't like media training. I don't, I think that there, it moves everyone to the middle. If she is slightly awkward, that's one thing, do we want people to all sound the same? The problem with that is, as we all know, you get to, oh, they don't talk like real people and you get to the sort of, you know, pr political questions of, okay, everyone sounds like Kier. And then Farage and Trump come out and they say they sound like normal people, but that they're not normal people. So I'm just wondering what do we think about this idea of natural communicators and when you get to this very, very top level?'cause it is a really difficult job and a lot of it is comms. And I'm wondering what that means.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I'll, I'll quickly push back, Richard. I mean, you said you don't like people who are media trained and coached because it, it doesn't make them sound normal, but you, I would hope for every podcast you do undertake a huge amount of prep and research.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Enormous.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Yeah. So, so, so therefore you can hardly condemn someone who's going in front of the world's media for doing the same.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah. No, I, I think there might be a question of style and substance here. I think there's a question of do they know their brief? That's one point I think some of the politicians that you think, okay, if you look back over the last 40 or 50 years, Blair had a bit of slipperiness to him. Johnson had a bit of slipperiness that there is something that gets you through. Farage has got it. Trump's got it. Hillary Clinton never had it. Gordon Brown never had it. Stama hasn't got it. There is something about a sort of toolkit that they need, which involves humor being able to get through a conversation. You know, Theresa May was a, again, a terrible example where there's nothing that doesn't hit them. They need some way of, of getting beyond it. And I don't think that's to do with media training. I think there's something else there.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

I suspect, Richard, if, if you look on this call, we've probably conducted over a thousand media training sessions between us and some people who are natural communicators and, and others less so. And, and we're not trying to flatten out any personality or spirit within that. But what you are trying to do, as John says, is you gotta try and prepare people, you know, you, you would not go into, you know. Or maybe you would if you were England batting in the ashes, but you would not go in undercooked and under prepared. And this is all about 10,000 hours of practice in effect, so that you, you are prepared for the environment, you're prepared, you know, you brief, and then you try and bring as much of your own personality to it as possible. The other thing is like, what do you actually want to have that engagement? So there's different types of, of media training. There's political media training when you've. Training people who are leaders of organizations. You know, the IOC would be a good one actually. You want someone to actually humanize the IOC, which has had criticism like ma like many international federations, international governing bodies or other sports OO over the years. So you actually need to bring some of that humanity and personality to it. And then at the other end of the spectrum, you've got Premier league footballers who are, you know, 17, 18, 19 years old. And the objective for them is to get through their contractually obligated two minute media into we're saying nothing. So,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

yeah,

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

I I think there's a really broad spectrum, but by and large you're doing it to build confidence, not to scare people into saying as little as possible.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

One final thing before we move on from Kirsty Coventry. She's got a, she's got the Donald Trump moment coming, hasn't she? How would you prepare her for that?'cause you've, you've had infantino, you know, we had Michael. Pain on here talking about he thinks Infantino has played a blinder. That's exactly what he should be doing. Trump is sitting, you know, you have to deal, play with the, uh, the deck of cards in front of you. She's now got to go into that environment and you've got the a la Olympics, which is gonna be incredibly politically difficult. I agree completely, John, about your thing about this isn't a crisis, but it is also quite interesting to, just to project onto it in terms of, well, do you think she's ready for that? Which could be one of the most difficult comms challenges in sport over the next couple of years,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Years. I, I think Donald Trump likes strong women and he's gonna find, he's gonna find Kirsten. I dunno

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

where your evidence for that is.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

No, he, he, he, well just look at Caroline Levitt. I mean, you know, he likes people. Who, um, you know, particularly females who have a, a very strong, outspoken personality. Now, Kirsty isn't necessarily outspoken, but she's got an incredibly strong personality and I think he will enjoy his engagement. Talking, talking with her.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

the only thing I'd say, John Trump likes people who agree with him, and that's gonna be the issue, is when there's gonna be clear points of this agreement. I think you're right, rich. There's an interesting point. I think it's probably one of the toughest comm challenges in sport ever to be the president of the a OC. Taking the Olympic Games to the United States with Trump as president, and it's not just a moment, it's, it's gonna be many moments, you know, at all hours of the day, because he'll suddenly be doing an interview to the Financial Times overnight or tweeting something on true social that's totally different from what he said two days previously. It's

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

very changeable.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

And then you've obviously got, you know, the California political leadership.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Yep.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

The, I mean, and you are right in the middle of that, so it's a tremendously difficult challenge, isn't it?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Think one of the, the sort of interesting bits about it is that it goes beyond communication, actually.'cause it's to do with I was looking at, uh, the sort of task forces that she's landed on as her sort of defined her inbox publicly. And one of the things that wasn't in that list of things that the IOC is going to, you know, care deeply about and do something about is. Climate and that was, it didn't have its own sort of area, which I thought was a okay. That felt like a list being drawn up with Donald Trump, looking over Kirsty Cove's shoulder. And I think the question of DEI, I think the whole issue of Olympism run, you can sort of say, well that is absolutely what MAGA is opposed to all of the things that we talk about in terms of olympism, uh, in its broadest sense. I think it's, it goes beyond this gonna be a difficult White House visit. I think it's about what the IOC stands for and whether or not they can stand up to the onslaught that they'll get when they start to talk about what olympism means.'cause it's absolutely not what Donald Trump and MAGA and Stephen Miller think the world should be like.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Yeah, I mean, I think we are in dangerous territory hypothesizing what may or may not happen. I, I can only go, I'm now sounding like a true PR professional. I can only go on. What I've seen so far is that I think Kirsty Coventry is absolutely up for it and will defend the values of, of, uh, of Olympism to the nth degree. Um, she's a very different president to Thomas Bark and she, from what I've seen so far, I think there is a move to slightly depoliticize the IOC as as much as possible. Whereas Thomas Bark took the IOC into very high level political circles. I think Kirsty is going to be, if I had to speculate at all, I would say Kirsty's gonna be quite different in that regard. But yeah, there are some big challenges to come, that's for sure.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

That's really interesting you say that actually.'cause I thought my, again, this is the view of someone that's not as close anywhere near as close to it as you are, John, is that the problem with the election was that she was chosen by bark and therefore the, my perception is that she was the chosen one, therefore she's carrying out his agenda over time. And this might be a very British thing and you, you know, you've got Seb CO's failure in that election to run into that story. So that might be coloring everything. But I thought that's quite interesting you said that because I didn't realize that. So we, we are looking for stuff like that. Neil, sorry I interrupted.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Yeah, I, I I think she's her own woman from everything I've seen and I, I, I know her less well than, than than John does. But I, I think, let's be clear that neither the 2028 nor 2032 bid awards were her decision. There is a reality around the US Olympics, it will be extremely commercially successful and therefore it will. Replenish the coffers of the Olympic movement and enable her to make some other interesting and bold decisions potentially. So I, I think, yeah, there is the get through the White House engagement, don't wear a MAGA hat bit, but then there's, you know, what happens in LA in two years time? John's right two years feels like an eternity right now with what's happening in, in, in the world, but has a potentially really good social legacy in terms of rebuilding that part of California after the wildfires as well. So, which again, yeah. Mm-hmm. You don't hear a lot on this side of the world, but Yeah. Is a pressing concern when you talk to people in California.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Mm-hmm. Okay. Right. Henry Chapel. I want you to just introduce us to our second story, which is Jim Ratcliffe, everyone's favorite football, uh, billionaire owner.

Jim Ratcliffe

if you really want to deal with the major issues of immigration, with people opting to take benefits rather than working for a living, if you wanna deal with that, then you're gonna have to do some things which are unpopular, um, and show some courage.

Speaker 6

And has, has this government done that?

Jim Ratcliffe

No, I think they, they, they, I dunno whether. I dunno whether it's just the apparatus that hasn't allowed Kir to do it, or, or he's maybe too nice. He's a nice, I mean, I, I know Kir, he is a nice man. I like him. Uh, but, um, it's, it's a, it's a tough job and I think you have to do some difficult things with the UK to get it back on track because at the moment I don't think the economy's in a good, you, you can't afford a, you can't have an economy with 9 million people on benefits. And, um, huge levels of immigrants coming into, I mean, the UK's being colonized, it's costing too much money. It will Cause it's

Speaker 6

be colonized.

Jim Ratcliffe

It'll cause well, yeah, yeah. The UK's being colonized by immigrants really, isn't it? I mean, the population of the UK is 58 million in 2020. No, it's 70 million in house. Have you, you, that's, that's 12 million people

Speaker 6

you met recently with Gel Farro, didn't you?

Jim Ratcliffe

I did. Do

Speaker 6

you think that they would be a kind of. A good government if they were to, to win the next election.

Jim Ratcliffe

Um, I think Nigel is an intelligent man and, um, I think he's got good intentions, but in a way, you could say exactly the same about Kia. When Kia came in,

I.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

You know, we had it just a minute ago. We've been talking about people being media trained and what have you. This is, he's probably one of the least media trained people in the sports industry. And of course he's the boss of iOS, the petrochemicals giant that's obviously got a minority stake in Manchester United. And since they've taken ownership of, of United, have, have taken upon themselves to be more communicative, which is often a criticism, isn't it? You know, definitely the Glazer family before them, but also elsewhere in football, that you never hear anything from anyone. And it's an issue at Tottenham right now. But you know, from a brand bitch to Croy to you name it, you know, normally. Yeah. Owners of these franchises, um, clubs are, you know, never gonna, never doing media interviews and probably for good reason when we get onto talking about this, but just over a year or so ago, you might remember, Radcliffe did a, his sort of first sort of set piece sit down interviews I think it was with a one year anniversary of, of becoming owners of the, of the club. He sat down with Dan Rowan and Gary Neville. Maybe one or two others. And, and, and that didn't go well because there was a huge number of live issues that were in play at the time from all the redundancies they were making through to uh, the issues around not paying the, the, the retired players foundation to various other things. And again, you know, it was awkward, wasn't it? If you recall, particularly both Dan and Gary had lots to go on and, you know, it was awkward, but maybe Rack could, had some credit for coming out and facing the cameras and he was obviously able to have some contrition for the mistakes that had been made and what have you. So it, it wasn't great, but, you know, he did it and it and it maybe it was like I say, a positive thing that he was prepared to sit and be interviewed, like, like that. But then, you know, we then entered this latest situation. And bear in mind between then and now, we've also had a big unveiling of this incredible new partly publicly funded redevelopment of old traffic in the surrounding area with a very ambitious plan for the world's biggest circus tent on land. But she don't currently own, you know, uh, with a design that is now not gonna happen and with funding that isn't in place. And, but that was all you know, launched with much hurrah and and Fandango and very little, if any follow through. But obviously on, on the field of play things are a bit better. Suddenly, you know, with Carrick studying the Ship United are doing okay. But then a few weeks ago, um, just over a month ago, uh, so Jim was at the European Industry Summit. In Antwerp, unlike John telling his story of the Kirsty Coventry figure, I wasn't there. I don't think anyone in the sports industry was at a petrochemicals conference in Antwerp, but, uh, sky News's, ed Conway, who's the, their economics and data editor was there and he got a sit down with the gym and it was a three minute sit down that was broadcast. And, um, as I'm sure what everyone recalls he came out with this, you know, very incendiary remark that the UK has been colonized by immigrants really, hasn't it? He was questioned on that. He repeated the sentiment so it couldn't be a misspeak. And he supported his claim with some faction information that wasn't entirely correct getting either the dates or the numbers mixed up, which doesn't help when you are saying something quite. As eye catching as that. And, and he was obviously using that because he's, he's pleading poverty for Ineos and, and saying that things are terrible and this, that and the other. And this, this is one of the reasons why, but obviously he's sitting there as the boss of Ineos, but he's also, he may not have been thinking with his Majesty United hat on, but obviously Manchester Knight is an organization that has, you know, incredible broad, uh, fa fan base and has had, you know, uh, incredible track record of success going right the way back to the Neve days. It was, you know, obviously with largely, you know, thanks to a huge number of former players and managers who are immigrants and, uh, and, and not to mention the staff base at United as well. So obviously it's comments like that which are without foundation, which are sort of factually erroneous and really, um, misrepresented of what Manchester United is a football club stands for. And so. It clearly what Jim Radcliffe believes, and it's, and he would go, well that's because when offered the chance to apologize and correct, he partly apologized but didn't correct. So he clearly does, that is his point of view and he feels entitled that he should be saying that. And he obviously he obviously is saying that in relation to, you know, some of his own you know, uh, objectives from EOS point of view. And indeed he, knowledge themselves didn't apologize and didn't reference in their, in their statement obviously, which was probably carefully worded and went through IOS's approvals that in a way that meant that they were not going to you know, make JI look or undermine what Ji had said. So they just. You know, made it clear United's views on d and i and, and other such matters. But it was a, it was, it was a hardhearted statement really, that, that was just hoping that the whole issue would move, move on. And obviously it then, you know, quite rightly and understandably, definitely understandably produced a huge pile on from across the industry and across social media and then obviously into the found base at Match Day and has just left a, a stain I think that is, is still there and, um, yeah it's, but it's obviously representative of the, you know, de divisive nature of the bi British political system at the moment and people's point of views. And it is tricky. I will also having to say that it is, there's a huge number of comments on social media around the clip of this and various other, uh, news reports a bit. And you have to say that there are. If you look at them as I urge you to do, at least 50% of the comments on that are very supportive of what Jim Radcliffe has said. And I'm not saying that's representative of public opinion, I'm just saying if you, you know, preparing for this, I did look at that to see what that was case and it was that was the case. So, or, or is the case and from what I saw from the Sky News piece that had been posted and from various other social media, um, news, news clippings of what Jim Jim had said. So yeah, I think that's the summary of where we're at with it.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah. Thank you. And it, and there's a few things in here that I just want to sort of pick out as you say I wanna talk to you about apologies as well. But it's interesting that he felt, you know, he was emboldened to say it and repeat it and you know, that the apology was sort of not apologizing for his views. It was apologizing for, you know, I'm sorry if you, if you are offended, that type of type of thing. So, Neil just bring you in. You said at the beginning about context is being important because the context just. Changes. You can take that quote and it will go. And to Henry's point, there'll be a load of people who say, yeah, brilliant. You know, I'm glad someone as written famous as Jim Radcliffe has said these things that I've always thought, and I'm now emboldened to say them as well. So there's a whole thing, which I'm sure a lot of the commenters on the, uh, which Henry is referring to is that's, it's, it sort of opens the door in that way, but what is, just gimme your sort of first response really.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Well, I mean, one important part of context here is actually one thing that John and I both have in common is that we were both fired by Manu United after Jim Radcliffe came in. So, um, you know, I think it's worth, worth noting that the, he's not a man who is known for listening to external advice, should we say so and, and I think a lot

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

this, why is this where I call for Radcliffe to media training camp?

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

No, I look, I, I think there's something fundamental here, which is, you know, if you are, and this is partly why there is a reaction to it, is this sort of fairness agenda here. So, he's got tax Excel status. He lives in Monaco, you know, here he is lecturing Man United fans, how they should feel about living in the uk and you know, they should feel about having a diverse population. And actually it's just, yeah. He's a man union, but he's been away for a long time and the view looks very different from Monaco and it looks very different from the director's box looking out than it would be on the St. Stratford end looking into the director's box. And I thought it was really important what Henry actually said there. You know, the United Funds put a banner in in the. Crystal Palace home game saying, you know, proud MUFC proudly colonized by immigrants because Manchester is a very liberal and diverse city. So I, I, and I think therefore there is something around perspective, around context, around group think, particularly if you are in that super elite and you think you are used to saying what you like what you want to say, and you don't have people around you to challenge your opinions. And frankly, as you said, Henry, he didn't need to do that interview on that platform at a petrochemicals conference in Antwerp. You know, what was the point of that interview other than ego? You know, Jim, you know, Jim Radcliffe view on the world and it doesn't even look him, make him look very smart as a billionaire when he, he can't tell the difference between, you know, 58 million people in 2020 and 67 million in 2020 is the population of the uk. And yeah I, I just, yeah it was. Not positive for Jim Ratcliffe. It was not positive for United. I think they actually did, United did ultimately come out and said that they didn't stand by those views. You know, they fell in line with the likes of kick it out, et cetera. But it was entirely a crisis of their own making. And I think it entirely came from that point of just losing perspective, taking a view of who your audience was, and actually the right thing to do would've been just to apologize rather than double down on the comment. But I suspect that that's not a person who is very used to being challenged or finding themselves in a situation where they need to apologize or feel they need to apologize for anything.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

John.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Well, you know, as, um, Neil said, we have a, not necessarily a conflict of interest, but I worked with Manchester United for 12 and a half years working, on the, mainly on the pr in relation to the owners the, the Glazer family. So I, I'm particularly interested to see, or to at least try and imagine how they would've reacted to, uh, what Sir Jim said and the machinations that went on behind the scenes in terms of trying to get the club to communicate as fast as possible and, and, uh, and put its position across. And I'm absolutely convinced that, uh, the Glazer family, who, the fact that they, you know, they never do interviews. They've only ever done one interview with, I think it was, um, in-house Man, Manu United in-House tv. Uh, I think they probably, all their instincts were that this was a, a really bad situation and that they needed to get involved and I'm sure that they would've swung into action behind the scenes. Can

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I just ask you a question about that, John? Yeah. Because it's just is so, if you are the. PR guy for the gl, that sounds like quite an easy job. They, they don't do any pr, do they? So that's, well,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

what do

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

you, what do you do with the Yeah,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

well, no, you, you, you hope that like in the early days, that, uh, the team is winning trophies and, uh, performing well on the pitch and that, that the PR takes care of it itself to a certain extent, although, obviously the Glazer family never had good pr, but the, the degrees of badness on their PR were determined by the performance on the pitch. But that's they had a good intuition when I worked with'em. They had a good intuition in terms of pr to, up to a certain point. And they definitely would never have allowed their views. And I, I believe they are, you know, some of them are Republican supporters. I dunno whether they are Trump supporters or not, but I don't think they would ever have allowed themselves to have been caught out like that on. On an unrelated interview, say for example, on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers or on their property investments or something like that, if they'd been interviewed on that, I don't believe they would've allowed themselves to have made that kind of mistake. And then the second question to ask is how much of a story this would've been had he not been you know, a minority shareholder of Man United? Would he even have been interviewed?

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

No. Well, I, I agree. That's the point. He's sort of, I'm Jim Radcliffe, I'll say what I want. But it's like, well, I, people, there's only newsworthy and it's only of interest because you are an owner of Manchester United Football Club. And then I think as an owner, you have a duty of care, you have a responsibility to, to, you know, to, if you are doing public interviews or speaking in public to. To represent the interest of Manchester United Football Club as any employee would, you know, if an employee came out and said that they probably had their contract terminated. So, you know, and so you can't have it both ways. You know, you're only being interviewed by Sky and the Hug Powell because you managed to buy your way in with some borrowed money as well to get a minority stake in United. So I think that that's, I suspect by the fact that he's fired both of my fellow panelists on this show, because he probably just wanna listen to, to what people have to say. And I suspect anyone who works with him so bloody terrified of getting, getting the boot for telling him what he doesn't want to hear that he's, he just does what he wants. And he, you know, he, I think Ed Conway did a good piece about how he got the interview, which was, I think he just sort of asked him and he said, yeah, and they had a quick sit down. So I don't think there was any, none of this was premeditated. He just was,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

he are consultants. Worst nightmare as clients, good clients who agree to do interviews off the cuff.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

And, um, they do get the, I mean, I guess the, again, you'll expect me to say this, but actually someone saying what they mean is quite refreshing, you know, without it being filtered by the sort of, uh, the PR class, the comms associations.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Do you think, do you think these comments are refreshing, Richard?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

No, I don't, but it's really important that we know that that's what he actually thinks. So I think there's a it hasn't been filtered and so fair. You know, that's one bit of this. Of course, I don't agree. You know, he wouldn't expect me to agree with his comments, although it's quite interesting. I don't, I'm never quite sure about the politics of the sports industry per se. I think they're sort of, there's quite alar, uh, a significant proportion of people that would say, yeah, I'm, I'm up for this. Good, good on gym. So there's a whole bit of it, which is to do with dog whistling. He sounded a bit like a sort of someone who was quite keen to be a reform MP at the next election. You know, it was that sort of,

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

sort of, it's not a dog whistle, Richard, if everybody else can hear it. I think would you have said that if you were Ahad Diallo sat in that dressing room, or Co Manu sat in that dressing room at the Crystal Palace game, very true. You were more or less motivated to play for that minority shareholder as a result of that. The same with the fan base A around the world, by the way. And it, funnily enough, yeah as Henry alluded to, people do care more about the best supported club football team in the world, more passionately so than they do about whether you could turn around a failing petrochemicals plant in the rural valley. So it's, yeah there's, they are different things and people care about'em a lot more and they're more emotional, which is frankly why three of us are on this podcast talking to you right now, I guess.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Absolutely.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

But the, but, but the other point is just that even sort of respect to sort of Michael Carrigan co. You just, you finally had a period where United were out of the news. It still, the season was in the balance, and then you just go,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

that might, and that might be why he did it. He just likes the, he like, he's a drama queen and he likes

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

the, uh, I'm, I'm sure, I'm sure it's why he, it's not why did the interview, I'm, I'm sure his motivation, you would ask what's the, in your strategy for getting involved in sport in such a way. And for doing what they're doing. And I'm sure a part of it is because he's a chap who's been in the industry as we say, that no one cares about and is not particularly glamorous or interesting. And he wants, you know, to, to be in front of camera. He definitely does.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Which he's sort of, which he's sort of against his, when I look at, I've got a photo of him in front of me on my screen, and he's sort of the embodiment of a sort of, you know, you know, northern sort of meowing, sort of, you know, gr grind from Dickens. Exactly. And it's so this idea that he's a sort of star fucker, you know, owner that sort of, so weird. But it probably is true. You know, I think he would, he would hate the idea that that's why he is doing it. He would put forward all sorts of sort of, you know, McKinsey esque, clever rues to, uh, say why he is bought Man United and what the plan is and why he is a billionaire and all of these things. But it's, it's sort of interesting that he is do, he's he did behave in that way, isn't it?

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I mean, what it does show is that when very wealthy owners from outside the sports sector come in and take over that their values, their background, their culture, their, their background, um, is going to be potentially in direct, and their beliefs are gonna be potentially in direct conflict to the massive asset that they bought. And they, I think there's gotta be a, a long hard look at, um, due diligence when you take on shareholders for, uh, for major sporting assets.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Yeah, but I think that the, the, the sad point about it, it would be good if owners of sporting organization, people who are, who are at the top end of the sports industry, did do more interviews and spoke more, and we heard from them and then you have a situation like this and it's just only is going to lead to one result is that you will hear less. From them, because this will be how not to do it. But I think there, it's a shame because there is a middle ground where he could still try and speak for what their plan for Manchester United is as an ownership group, which people would really want to hear and understand. And he could still purport to be, you know, his, his, you know, talk about his, his right-wing agenda if he wanted to. But I think it's just the nature in which these comments came out, the, the language that was used, the misrepresentation of the facts the, you know, you know, but again, it just creates a sort dangerous agenda to be perpetuated on social media and so on. I think, you know, there is a, there is a very important but subtle difference there. Uh, and you know, I think it, it, this should not be used as an example. That's why owners of football clubs shouldn't talk to the media because that would be a, that is a great shame.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

And, but it's also lack of preparation, isn't it? And thinking through what the impact of that is on your stakeholders. Do we think that makes, that interview makes it easier to access public money in the current context? No. The labor controlled mayoralty in greater Manchester to get Trafford redeveloped,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

I mean,

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

probably, probably not. There's a lots of stakeholders that would've, that's basically made, made it harder for United to do what they want to do as a club, and they'll have to Yeah. Repair a lot of bridges because of a,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

yeah.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Three, three second interview that didn't, so three minute interview that didn't need to happen.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

And on, on a technical level. It also technical PR level, it also shows the real importance of the communications teams of the owner and their industry that they built their wealth on being absolutely joined at the hip with the communications team of the club of the sporting asset that they've purchased. And you wonder on this occasion whether there was, uh, even remotely any connection there.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Well, there were some very smart, good people working on communications and marketing at the club still, and I'm pretty sure that first they would've seen of it would be when Ed Conway's interview went live. So.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Yeah. Ouch. Which, Which again is never a good thing.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

No. We're all control freaks, right. As well. That's the that's the worst thing that could happen to us.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

So I think there's a bridge. I'm gonna build a podcasting bridge here from this story about, and uh, owners to Neil's story. We're gonna finish off with a story, which I'm sort of, I've begrudgingly allowed on to the podcast, but it's about Tottenham and it's about Tottenham's Manager. Neil, why don't you set us up?'cause we're going, we're going down a level here and I've got, you know, I think it's quite interesting football community. We're still in football, but there's a a particular angle in Right. Give us a, give us a set out for

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

us. Can we agree, Richard, that spurs are going down a level?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Well, I, I was on a train, I was on a very long train to Helman with Sean. Yes. You know, and he's, he, he says 70% that we're going down and Opta who I think are, I think are smarter than Sean. Say 20%. So I'm, I'm with Opta, but we'll see. I think it'd be quite a laugh to go down

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

one of life's optimist. Right.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Very good.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Neil. Give us the, uh, two PTH on Igor

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Spurs are away athletic game grid. So Igor two has been brought in as a interim manager to the end of the season. Spurs, I'm, I'm sorry to lay this on thick, Richard. I, I, it is helpful context. Um, spurs have not won since the 28th of December. Domestically won a couple games in the Champions League. He decides to pick Antonin Kinsky, 23-year-old Czech goalkeeper who's made three appearances in the Caribou Cup in two years. Poor guy makes. Two Goalkeeping Ricks in the first 13 minutes as, and Mickey Mander also falls over'cause he is not got the right studs on. So they're, they're three nil down after 13 minutes, at which point Ego two decides that he's gonna substitute. Anton Kinsky. And then as the young goalkeeper walks off, he, he blanks him. So he doesn't even shake his hand, acknowledge him or anything. And I think when you look at the reaction from the, the goalkeeper's union of, of other former goalkeepers, Joe Hart said he was flabbergasted. Peter Smi said to CBS that he'd killed his career. Uh, and even Igor Tudor. And bear in mind, you know. English is not ego's first language. He's Croatian and he speaks very good Italian. He speaks pretty good English, but again, he came out subsequently said that he'd killed the guy. And I, I think I look back and I think there's anything comparable. Maybe it's lo s in the 2018

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Champions League final for Liverpool, uh, when he similarly made to, to goalkeeping Ricks and never really played for Liverpool again. He is, he's now playing his trade in the Bunes League of Beef for Chaka. And i, I, I think this is more just about how you create a culture and whether you should be, yeah, we'll say praise in public and, and bullic in private. And I like, and it sort of, it's more in the, the realm of on performance, on pitch performance, which, you know, the people on this call sadly can't control for. But I think there is something around how if you're trying to build a team or any esp spreader call within a business, you, you always make sure that you support your people in, in public.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

He hasn't got long. He can't build a culture in nine games, can he? Or whatever. So I think he's, I, it's quite interesting, his sort of whole persona is of the, uh, the sort of bastard deputy head at school. You know, the one that, you know, he was, he's the one to come in and give the Bullock Kings to Henry. What do you think about Igor and the, the, let's talk about management managers as, because we used to write managers a lot and now they are just sort of, uh, things to be kicked when they lose and, and celebrated when they win. And there's a book in this, by the way, but there is a whole thing about the devaluation of football managers, I think, and from a comms per. Perspective, they are the ones that have to go out and are, you know, have to go and talk to the press. Which again, are some of the worst bits of media, you know, of the week. Is the sort of post match managers and players interviews. But what do you think about that sort of taking Igor and, and uh, broadening him?

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

I dunno about Igor. I, I'm, I'm not a close follower of Tottenham Hot, so, um, forgive me on that, but I can. I can't s it is, we are talking about communications in sports and cri being a football manager, there's a, there's a crisis every time you lose a football match, isn't there?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

Yeah.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

And you know, as a football manager, you are the one who has to go and face the media every time. But so as a, as a obviously United fan, and, and I think it's quite interesting to talk about it in the context of, say Ruben Aing, who was, he came to the club as and was, you know, talented as being a fantastic communicator. And I think Nan calls him the poet or something. And, and in fact he, you know, he, he, the media loved him because he, he gave some tremendous sound bites and did communicate very well, but he was shocked at the extent of interviews he had to do as Manchester United Manager when he came. And I'm suspect there's still quite a few interviews you have to give at Totton Hot Spur. And that's quite interesting because he was, he was, you know, he, he vocalized that, didn't he? That the, the amount of interviews he had to do was, you know, in the first week was more when he did in the whole season overseas. So yeah, the communication part of it is vital. And the other point is admirable, is that I think ultimately his over communication and the, the points he chose to communicate about him got him a sack ultimately. Um, whether he wanted to, wanted out and wanted us to be written get out of that. But it wasn't actually his performances ultimately and his shocking results that got in the sack. It's what he said in an interview in a pro.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

But do you think these jobs are impossible jobs? And I know it's a cliche about the England manager, but I just think I'm, you're getting to the point where I don't think.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

Never. Not, they're not, I mean, going back to Good look at the way tutu's handling things at the moment, it'd be interesting to see in the pressure of America whether he, whether, you know, he can continue to be, but I think, and again, he, he's been in involved in the communication for Rory around what he said around Chief Billingham. But he has dealt with that well subsequently, and people sort of, you know, understood it was, it was the wrong choice of words from a language point of view. But I think generally speaking I, I think some of the, I think some, ultimately some of these managers are probably underqualified to be in the role and, you know, and therefore they get found out that might be in one of a number of departments. It might be tactically it might be in management of the players, or also it might be they're not good enough at the communication aspect of, of the game. And I think if your, if your tactics and your management of the players are so good. Then you can probably get away with that. But if it's going wrong on the pitch, and then off the pitch is Ruben AM's case, you decide to have a shot at your ownership. Your owners, you know, you're not gonna last much longer than the end of that press conference. And I think from a, from a Spurs and tutor point of view, and I think the last of your issues is his communication. You know, I mean, he's been brought in to try and somehow get some results to keep in the Premier League. I don't think it really matters what he says to the media at the moment. It matters whether he can. Somehow, you know, get the players to get some results. But you know, but I think it does matter if you are, you know, in the role in a permanent basis or, or we are looking to build, you know, sort of build some momentum for what you are trying to do, which is, you know, obviously what TCI would like to do at England and what am supposedly was trying to do at United until he decided to sort of use, use the press conferences to really get him, get himself fired. But yeah. Should they be media trained? Well, yeah, they probably should. They should have help with it. Definitely. And obviously the comms professionals who work in football clubs, that's, that's what they do. And they,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

yeah.

Henry Chappell, Pitch Marketing

You know, it's, it's a, it's a very intense job. You are traveling with the team. You've got endless press conference. There's a lot of very good people. But whether they have really have the chance to sit down and help the managers as they, they probably could, if they had the chance, might not be the case. Because some managers probably, well, many of them probably just wouldn't have the time or the inclination to do that. And maybe that's not insisted upon at a, that is executive level within clubs, you know, it just, it becomes just, it just happens, you know? And, and it should be because again. This is your number one employee who's speaking on behalf of your entire organization. So, you know, they should, they should be more prioritized, more. But it is very darn difficult when you're parachuting in a manager at the end of the season like this with what, seven games to go, and they're trying to stay up. It's it isn't the priority, but it, it, it, it does make the whole situation even worse. Doesn't worse,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

John.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Yeah. I mean, so many different aspects and threads to put on there, but Yeah. I just got, I've got a question for you guys, and, and for you, Richard, as a Spurs fan, is, is, um, Chuda being castigated more for pulling the, keeper off after an unprecedented short amount of time, or for the fact he didn't put his arms around him and give him a cuddle as he came off?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

My personal view is that he ain't gonna win what every he does unless they start winning. And, you know, this is the thing, if they, unless they have a win out of the last few games, unless if they stay up, we will be talking about him differently because it's so, it's the way we talk about football managers is sort of idiotic, you know, it's so results led. It's so much about last Saturday and it just is so short term as to be, you know, absurd. And so,

Jon Tibbs, JTA

yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

You know, Neil's point about the culture question. I think I went on a, oh God, I went on a Spurs podcast. And it just felt like Jesus Christ, there's no talking to some of the, they are just moaning. Just moaning all the time. Yeah. And there are smart people and it's really hard to have a sensible conversation about it. That's why I think it's probably an impossible job. I don't think that you can sustain that level of, public scrutiny and social media comment and the rest of it for any period of time really.

Jon Tibbs, JTA

Yeah. But I think the, it goes back to the first story that we were talking about is that leadership. I think there's this assumption that in leadership, you, you've almost got intuitive understanding of good communications. And that doesn't mean just verbal communications. It means nonverbal comms as well. Mm-hmm. And I don't, I'm not a big you know, there's a lot of people on our big WhatsApp group who said, yeah, yeah. A, a leader will instinctively know what to do. Well, I'm, I'm not sure that's true. I think leaders can learn communications be, and they can get better at it. It's not always intuitive for all good leaders. And I think in, uh, Judah's case, his nonverbal communications were appalling. And I think he, you know, had he thought about it, he would've realized that the optics looked terrible for what he'd done, but it would be even worse if he didn't at least put his arm around him and give him a cuddle and so on. And I think in that case, there was a leader there who clearly good communications, verbal and nonverbal doesn't come naturally to him. And, uh, yeah, his instincts, his instincts let him down very badly.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

I think it sort of, it also talks about, sort of finish off in a, but Spurs. Fans have lost Daniel Levy as the The thing to aim for when they are want someone to blame. And Vinaya is now in charge. He's getting a bit of the flack. There is the sort of ownership level never speaks to our point earlier. Joe Lewis would never, you know, would, hasn't said anything in Don. His ears barely goes to a game. So who do you blame? And so you start to, and the manager is the obvious one. But people, I think the, I think owners have become the new managers in some ways in terms of, you know, people want to just go after the, where's they sense where the power is and you've got directs of football, you've got levels of sort of hierarchy and then you get to culture and that's where we are with Spurs. So I think culture becomes this thing that you try and attack without really defining what it means and what it is. But we know it when we see it and we say, okay, well, you know, Brentford and Brighton. Man city, different types of stories, but there's a culture there. And Liverpool win, they won, won the championship. No one's talking about Liverpool's culture this year, but when they win, it's all about John Henry and the cleverness of the group. So all of that, I think there's a, just a desire to blame someone and the football manager is the obvious place to go. Neil, finish us off and I will, we will call it a halt.

Neil Daugherty, Teneo

Yeah. And I think it's good that we finish on sort of culture and, and leadership and then, you know, we come back to this point of, yeah, football is the most important of all the unimportant things is, is. Is the most overriding, i i important thing that you win football matches. It Spurs case that you stay in the Premier League and don't lose 50 million pounds revenue a season. Um, or do you have a duty of care to those young men who play for you, young women who play for you as well? You know, the, the guy's career has most likely been ruined because he has become an internet meme. True. The, the other in internet meme when you John said the, some nonverbal communication is, you know, what was ego tutor's reaction directly after that? Not only did he blank kinsky, but then he tapped his tempo and told everybody else to calm down, having clearly lost his head in the moment. So, the, the, there is a broader question is like, you know, does the business of sport and does business of football just sort of sweep all before it? Or is there a broader purpose of these clubs as institutions to, you know, sit in the heart of communities and, and be culture setters? So, um.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner

There is a, there is another podcast and also a PhD to be written. If you wanna get cracking on that subject. We won't, we won't get to that at the end of this one. But listen, thank you so much. I really enjoyed that. It was exactly what I was anticipating. I think we'll do this again. I've gotta, I sense a, I like it when, um, you have an idea on a Monday morning and it comes together by Monday afternoon and you, you publish on Tuesdays. This is like a sort of how it should be. And it's also I, yeah, I think more of this. But anyway, thank you very much for your time. So Neil, John, Henry,