UP550 Inside Edge: IPL Auctions and the Financialization of Everything

Richard Gillis, Mike Jakeman and invited guests dissect the business of cricket.

The IPL auction has become one of the most watched events in world cricket — part financial instrument, part entertainment spectacle. This episode gets under the bonnet: how it actually works, what it means for players, why it's reshaping cricket's global talent economy, and whether any of it translates to the UK market.

The conversation moves fast from mechanics to philosophy: competitive balance vs. team identity, player as commodity vs. player as inspiration, and the central tension of the hundred — is it building something sustainable, or is it a VC play dressed up as a sport?

Guests 

Charlie Hartley — Former county cricketer (Kent), entrepreneur. Author of a cricket coaching resource and a children's book on the life lessons of sport. Founder of a sports tech platform focused on athlete-fan data and engagement. Brings a player's perspective on the franchise model and its implications for the English game.

Gaurav Sundararaman — Cricket analyst and commentator with deep knowledge of the IPL. Has worked across the IPL ecosystem and brings an Indian market perspective on how the auction works from the inside — how franchises think, how scouting operates, and how the competition has evolved over nearly two decades.

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Transcript

Speaker 0:00

Hello there, Richard Gillis here. Welcome to Unofficial Partner. This is Inside Edge, our business of cricket series with my regular co-host, Mike Jakeman. Our guests are Hartley, who is a former county cricketer for Kent, author of a cricket coaching resource and a children's book on the life lessons of sport. He's also very good on TikTok and Instagram about the business of cricket from a player's perspective, particularly when it comes to the question that we're talking about today, which is the franchises and the player auction as an idea and, just a thing that exists now that we talk about a lot. Joining Us is Guarav Sundaraman, cricket analyst and commentator with a deep knowledge of the IPL as you're here. So, the IPL auction's become one of the most watched events in World Cricket. Part financial instrument, part entertainment, spectacle. This episode gets under the bonnet, how it actually works, what it means for players, why it's reshaping cricket's global talent economy, and whether any of it translates to the UK marketplace. I think you'll enjoy this. And if you like these conversations, please sign up to the Substack Unofficial Partner, you enjoy it.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:09

I don't wanna overwhelm you with my tech expertise, but it does involve pressing buttons. Okay. Right. I just wanna introduce everyone. We've got a packed house. I've got Mike, my standing now co-host for Inside Edge. Hi Mike, how are you? Yeah, looking forward to this. Charlie, welcome.

Charlie Hartley 1:29

Hello. Hello. Thank you very much.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:32

AV welcome.

Gaurav Sundararaman 1:32

Thanks for having me, guys. Pleasure.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:34

I wanna set this up. So, Mike, this came about, over the course of the last sort of few months we've referenced the auction, the IPL auction, it's become one of the sort of most dramatic bits of world sport. There's a sort of great theater to it, and it's always been central to the IPL and, right from the very beginning. I guess we thought, well, we just want to get a bit closer to it.'cause the implications of it I think are quite profound on the game across the world. also how much of it is theater, how much of it is real? All those types of questions I've got floating around.

Mike Jakeman 2:08

Yeah, that's right. I mean, there's, the IPL obviously has a lot of, has, has imported a lot from US sports. the auction is a, a version of the draft that the NFL draft It's another thing that can be monetized. and with a, a league like the IPL that's relatively short in terms of its duration, it means that there's another thing in the calendar that's outside of the, the 10 week window when the game's happening. And because the IPL is so influential, you know, imitations of this are popping up in other leagues where IPL team are invested, most notably for us in, in the UK the hundred. I agree. I think it's got, it's got economic implications, it's got real cultural implications for cricket as well. which is why I'm kind of happy we've got some different perspective on, today with, with Charlie and also with Go.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 2:49

So let's talk about what actually happens. So Gura, do you wanna just sort of, from your perspective, you should explain what your relationship to it is, but also just. What's it like? How do you it?

Gaurav Sundararaman 3:01

No, I think it's blockbuster. If I have to call one word for auctions, it's blockbuster. It's the fact that players are, treated as commodities that may not sound very, nice, but the fact that they're able to get the value that the market demands, right? the market decides the price, unlike a draft where, you know, everybody's fixed at a fixed salary cap. that is something, I am kind of, I don't think it's fair. there, there's always going to be two, two schools of thought, but if you ask me, the auction kind of really, gives the true value that a player must get at that point of time in his life based on so many parameters. And that allows you to play, make it a very even field. And I'm sure you guys, follow all the other sports. One of the beauties of the IPL, Compare to, say, a, a English Premier League where the rich, like a man city can buy whoever they want to, because there, there's no salary cap they can buy. If they, if they have the money, they can get the best players. And they've done it before, which kind of changed their fortunes, in the late what, late mid two thousands. So, that's not the case in the IPL. Everybody has a fixed salary cap. There's a lot of strategies involved, and I always draw parallel to the NFL in terms of once it's become a 10 team, IPL, I think due to the auctions year you had different winners. You, the, the, in fact, two years in a row you've had four different playoff teams, because of the auction. The auction has created a very equal, setting. And even if you go back to the NFL, yeah, you, you can argue that the Patriots dominated. Now I think cancers are dominating, but by and large you'll find different players coming in, different, teams winning. It's not very easy to predict, and that is where auctions are far better than drafts.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 4:53

It was always the argument about, I mean, we had the sort of perennial thing about European football versus the American model, and obviously IPL is, is more towards the, the American model, but the, there is that issue of competitive balance. And this is a sort of part of the, the architecture of that, Charlie, what do you think? What's your View it He is right player as commodity and as obviously as a player X player. That's a word that is banded around about the auction.

Charlie Hartley 5:18

in general. I think for me, I kind of come back to two main points that, that were mentioned in terms of when we say value and success of a player, what, what does that mean for me? We're moving more towards just a cash value than a skill. Prolonged success justification. you look at the blast players, for example. Under 50% of the players are in the top stats of the blast last year weren't selected in the hundred. So that to me doesn't say value, that doesn't say success, that doesn't say pathway. That says perceived hype, maybe marketing value, maybe just, I dunno, an international spectacle or, or somebody that they can, drag interest from other eyes and other places. When we look at the NFL and the IPL, they work tremendously well because they have a huge market. India for, for example, having kind of played in various places, it is that they, I mean I, I'd kind of describe, India and the, the Asian markets by saying 50% really, really love cricket and the other 50% are obsessed. And that's pretty much like that. That's pretty much what you get when you go to India. There's nobody that, that doesn't really like it. It is an obsession across the entire place. So to, to be in that auction. almost like a, a film like for somebody to get that moment. It, it's like a journey that's got there. It's this spectacle, it's this pinnacle. It's the top of cricket in the world. Well, uh, shorter format. And the same can be said for the NFL. Like kids have gone all throughout the colleges, they've trained around the world. They've maybe gone to different colleges. There's been massive sacrifice. You mentioned F1 previously before the chat. Similar kind of of, of when they've got there. It, it's not just here have a big cash, uh, a check. Maybe we won't see you next year, but thank you very much. Line your pockets and go and play some golf in Barbados. But for me, when we look at the hundred, there's none of that involved. We have a system in the uk, which is, or at least when I was starting to play cricket, it was county cricket. You played county cricket as a team. You were there together. There were maybe people there that were playing when you were watching, when you were growing up. goals as a county or as a, as a player in cricket in the uk. Is to take your team to edge. Baston one of the best days in, in the calendar to try and get the road to Lords, uh, in the 50 over competition. And then to get into the first division in the championship. They're kind of your, your three areas as a, as a county cricketer, and you are working with a team to do that. My issue with the move that we're going towards it creates a very selfish mentality as players because if I was still playing, I would be shouting from the rooftops, the hundred is the best thing in the world. Pick me, pick me, pick me, gimme a load of money. I wanna treble my salary or quadruple my salary and I wanna earn 400 grand for four weeks work. Absolutely. I have no doubt I would be saying that if I was a player today, I kind of take a step back and I think about it from a, a perspective as an athlete that. kind of goals to play for England. Um, sport for me was all about team. The reason I don't play kind of as much recreationally these days is because it's, it is about the team. It's not just about turning up and performing. There's so much more to it.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 8:28

Mike, what'd you think? You got your mic, you got your, uh, mic turned off.

Mike Jakeman 8:34

Context for me is that throughout the history of Cricket Lift to its own devices, cricket will not pay its players very well. You know, that's why we ended up with the World Series Cricket breakaway at the end of the 1970s. That's why the IPL made such a splash, uh, when it arrived, because suddenly cricketers were being paid money that is not commensurate with other sports, but certainly far bigger than anything that Cricket itself would pay to them. So I'm really interested, Charlie, in how you as a, as a ex player, how you reconcile this idea of finally cricketers are still, are starting to get proper money with how this is sort of disrupting cricket culture. And I would also say that one of the reasons, um, why the IPL. is doing so well financially is because still relative to other sports, even with the checks that are being written to the players, teams are only spending 25, 30% of their revenue on wages, which is far below, all of the major US sports, which are kind of sort of 49, 50, 50 1%. and obviously European football is much higher, so Cricket still isn't paying its players in line with other sports. but this feels like a way in which players are, some players are starting to get a bigger share of the pine.

Charlie Hartley 9:49

what do we think is a good salary and, and what sport should we compare it to? Like, are we saying that, I don't know, a hundred grand as an athlete is, is awful? Are are, are we comparing it to an F1 driver? Should they be, should everyone be earning 40 million a year? Should, uh, I mean 400 grand for four weeks work to me is ludicrous cricket money. There isn't, there's no value that makes sense to that, that is a profit making system at the moment, obviously. I appreciate that, that innovation doesn't, it's like a startup business. It doesn't come instantly. There's, there's things you grow. Again, we look at the IPL and the reason it works, the reason it works is'cause brands are happy to spend millions for the eyeballs. Whether it's betting companies, whether it's, um, whatever other companies that have very, very deep pockets that lie in the systems and, and. Let's be brutally honest. The betting side of sport, when you look into the economics of sport, is a huge proportion. And that's why it works in that area because you have a lot of people that are willing to bet on cricket. That's why it, it holds up essentially. And you have a lot of brands that are willing to pump money into the teams. that doesn't work, then there isn't the money there. We look at the hundred, yes, it's been an inflated kind of growth piece. Uh, do we basically have to give up on the, on looking at the UK as a market and you look, oh, actually we want Asia. Which, which again, is not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to accept that. You don't want to focus on local sustainability. You want to focus on another market. And then I come back to the progression piece of children growing up in this country, having something to aspire to. What should that be? Um, so coming back to the first point, what is a good, what is a good salary for an athlete? Who should, what should we compare it to? Football, rugby, F1 golf. I dunno the answer to that.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 11:37

I think it's a really good question'cause it's one that, that up a lot, the fundamental problem of European football is that they've, they've lost control of the cost base of their players. And ECB and the hundred and the IPL part of it was they were determined not to allow that to happen. But when you then say, we've had 20, 30 years of media rights competition, which has been the engine of the, the money is that a true reflection of demand for the sport and of athletic ability? And in some cases you might argue that actually they're hugely overpaid in some cases in cricket we're arguing, okay, it feels like they're underpaid, but they're underpaid against a market elsewhere. Probably football, rugby has suffered from this as well, because you've got this situation where you could argue that the demand rugby isn't there. It's the same argument about women's football, women's football. The WSL people say, well, actually they should be paid more. But then you look at the economics of the gates and the, and if media rights are the arbiter. That salary is gonna go up. I think it's a really interesting question, Charlie,'cause see it across different sports and I think that one of the challenges is gonna be a recalibration of salaries or, or control of costs

Charlie Hartley 12:52

Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, it's a sustainability piece.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 12:55

yet.

Charlie Hartley 12:55

a, a startup business wouldn't pay their founder 200 grand a year. You don't do that. That's mental. You, you, you cut costs, you grow, you invest in areas that are gonna grow it. Now obviously you can argue that the players are the thing that are gonna draw it in, the point of sport is you need a sustainable growth piece. You need a funnel. Without a funnel, it doesn't work. The IPL has an incredible funnel. It has an unlimited funnel. It will never run out of, of people wanting to play in that. And it'll never run outta talent because you can go almost anywhere in India and you will find players that you could plunk into a county team they'd do pretty well.'cause the talent base is, is incredible. Same for the NFL. Um, my, my thing when it comes to the finance of it, you look at someone I was just looking at, at some of the stats, you look at someone like Will Smed. of the best players in the T 20 blast last year, and he's, he's valued at 55 grand, which is six times less than than some of the other players. And, and that to me, that to me, you can't make sense of that. That's not perceived value. That's one of the best players, the best to me as a kid growing up playing cricket, you are looking at these things going, what can I do? What can I do to get that perceived value? That makes no sense. Like, okay, one of the best players performed incredibly well. He should have gone for 200, 300 grand. He should have been one of the first picks.

Mike Jakeman 14:18

Right. This is this. Well, this is fascinating because you can, as a league, as a tournament organizer, you can design a system that you think is going to deliver what your priorities are, whether that's competitive balance or to increase revenue, whatever your priorities are. What you can't control is how well the participants in the tournament maximize the opportunities they've been given to them. In this new system, perhaps the hundred teams haven't picked the right players or they've spent money in the wrong places. And perhaps that's to be expected. And I kind of wanna ask about this because we've now got, you know, quite a lot of data on the IPL, um, stretching back almost 20 years. Do you have a sense of how much better IPL teams have got in terms of spending their cash at auctions?

Gaurav Sundararaman 15:12

Huh, that's a pretty loaded question because a lot of thing is, a lot of, uh, the answer to that is a lot to do with hindsight. Also, uh, in the sense that if your team performs, you do really well, then you're suddenly, you know, your, uh, auction is really good. You paid the best. Sometimes low value player delivers the maximum returns. Sometimes they're really high value players like Ick Mitchell Stock, for example. He was paid, uh, about 2.5 million in one of the small auctions. He had a shocker of a league stage. Then he came in and delivered two man of the match performances in the finals and the playoffs and everything was justified till that he had a shocker of a league stage. But nobody cares because they won, he won the team, the title, so. I think teams have definitely become smarter towards approaching auctions. Uh, before it used to be like, you know, somebody, I remember the first few auctions, Graham Napier, he just scored, I think, uh, about 16 Sixers in one of the, uh, T 20 blast games. And immediately he was picked up for by Mumbai Indians, uh, big Bash. The leading un getter of Big Bash usually gets a deal. Nowadays, teams have become much smarter. People don't just blindly just go by the odd performances. They do their research, they check the intangibles as well, um, and they try to spend their money. But the biggest difference guys is here. I think you're playing only 14 games. And in, before the first 10 years, franchises had to pay the, the board a franchise fee. And after

Mike Jakeman 16:51

Yeah.

Gaurav Sundararaman 16:52

years, that's not there anymore. So. If you see the early days of the auction teams like Stan Oils and Punjab Kings never finished their Perth because it didn't make sense for them. They, they always kept the eight 20%, which you had to spend a minimum of 80%. Uh, and they kept, they just spent their 80%, they actually kept 20% back because it was a loss making. Now post the 10 year mark, these, they don't leave a single. In fact, Garan oils have bought the most costliest players over the last few auctions, so they don't have to. So they, they come in at a mindset that let's spend every single penny, right, and before a ball is bold. Why I think IPL is a very different beast compared to a lot of other sports is before a single ball is bold. The franchises start with a positive about what? 500 curves? That's about 60 million, I think 60, 60 million without even like literally. With the ball being bold because of the broadcast rights. when you do that, you want to spend, and that is where the argument about players wanting to earn more is totally valid. In fact, I vouched that they have to get lots more than what they're getting today in the IPL, uh, because they're the ones who actually make it work. They're the ones who is actually performing on the field. Yes, it just feels a bit odd. And it's only 14 games, whereas your Premiership and baseball has what, one 60 Games? Premiership has 39 games through the year. The, from a perception point of view, workload seems a lot more here. It's just 14 games for two months of work. Uh, James Cole, games or 10 games, he's gonna make what, 300? Uh, 75,000 or 400,000. So, uh, that's something which maybe hard to accept. From a perception perspective. So I, my personal view is that, you know, players have to earn more. Their lifespan is the earning lifespan is very less. And in a country like India where, uh, uh, Charlie rightly mentioned about obsess, the conversion of actually people becoming cricketers is so less, guys, it is so hard to become a cricketer in India. It is practically impossible. You have like a 15 year

Charlie Hartley 19:02

that's why it works.

Gaurav Sundararaman 19:03

50, huh?

Charlie Hartley 19:05

That's why it works. Isn't it like that? That's you, you just, that's why the auction works so well.'cause as I mentioned, it's like a film.

Gaurav Sundararaman 19:11

Yeah,

Charlie Hartley 19:13

To get there.

Gaurav Sundararaman 19:13

percent. So,

Charlie Hartley 19:14

the same in the uk. guys are paid well, like they have good lives, they're paid nicely. it, it, I think we're talk, we are almost comparing Apple and pairs a little bit and, and I think that's the main thing of, of what this discussion is. would never doubt what the IPL have. What the IP have done is incredible, absolutely amazing. The spectacle's brilliant. Pretty much everything about it is done pretty well. You can argue it should have gone in various different ways, but it's amazing. The, the question is whether new tournament being plunked in the UK those different things that have been pulled from America and pulled from India, whether that is the right thing, not just for financial growth, but for the sustainability of the game and kids growing up and everything else that is involved.'cause it's not just sponsors and money. There's a lot more that goes into it.

Gaurav Sundararaman 20:02

So I think to your point, the whole idea is obviously to, put that money, to grassroots to ensure that facilities are better, to ensure certain counties can actually compete with the other counties and also wipe off a lot of debt with which a few counties had. So I think there's a larger purpose towards it,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 20:22

i've got a question about the get what gets rewarded. In this process. And again, it, it could be a historical thing, but you've got, playing talent winning and you've got the marketing value of players has that changed? We had Freddie Wilde on who's the data analyst at, in the IPL and in the hundred,'cause my assumption was, I initially, at least, that it was a sort of galactic US model that some franchisees was sort of building their own brands. They wanted the big global stars and that was part of the, valuation process. I'm just wondering if that's changed or whether, and if, again, we've got a nice. Parallel there with the hundred now learning lessons or, I just wonder if that's still a factor at play, do you think in terms of, okay, I need to build,'cause these people have spent now a lot of money on the hundred or, uh, franchises and one of the jobs is to build brands and build a fandom around those individual franchises, which didn't exist, a couple years ago. So what do we think about that? The talent versus just the other value, equation. Charlie, when you see the process taking place, are there counties or or a hundred franchisees, or you think Okay, that's where they're going with their acquisition?

Charlie Hartley 21:36

I mean, I, I personally think it's more of a subtle play that I think the, the thing that makes sense and that will make sense in 10 years time is if gonna be IPL teams own. Multiple teams in multiple franchises, and they pay one player to be in their team across all of them. That's basically the model. They're gonna try and work. No one wants to call that out and say to us what's happening. So that's why they go, oh yeah, nice. The hundred buy into this. This is fun. This won't turn into a T 20 competition at any point. Oh look something else over there. Smoke some mirrors. Don't, don't look at this. Does everyone just kind of focus on the excitement of what's going on? But what will happen is they'll, I think, is that they'll end up just owning, basically. Say for example, the ham royals will own multiple different teams in multiple different competitions, and instead of having to pay an inflated amount for certain players in certain areas, they will buy them for the franchise. So they'll basically go around with them. Um, cool concept, I guess an idea. I, I think it changes everything about cricket, recreational cricket, kids growing up. What there is, um, I think it's very cool in the Indian market and the American market in terms of this. A, a few golden people get to the top, but I don't, I, I don't think it works with the, the UK market. And when, again, kind of coming back to one of the points about funding the UK or the ECB invests multiple millions every single year into recreational cricket, like multiple millions. And, and again, that's probably a discussion for another time on how that's spent. But the money that's come from the sale of the hundred, not massive amounts comparative to how much gets invested every year. it, it's, it, it's spoken as if this investment's brilliant, it's wiping off a bit of debt, the actual investment is not gonna move the needle. Um, so that argument, I don't really buy, I, I think it was a strategic play to try and see if we can have a massive cash injection into the uk. a hope, it's a punt. But again, my argument on it is it, it's a short term fix of let's get some cash in. The biggest thing that I am concerned about is the structure and the pathway for people in the uk. What is it now? I I, I, I think that's the bit that, that mur it a little bit.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 23:50

Yeah, Mike, it's something that, Pete Fitz, Boyden said who, when he was on here, we, the Sussex, CEO or until recently, and it's the ecosystem argument, isn't it? You've got can the hundred and can, can these leagues coexist with the broader ecosystem of cricket? There's a sort of free market thing. You know, once you let the free market in, are the franchise owners as invested in the cricket ecosystem in the uk? Maybe, maybe not.

Mike Jakeman 24:13

here's a, I wasn't necessarily intending to take this conversation in this direction, but actually here we are. I'm interested in both of your perspectives on this idea that in a fixed period of time, maybe 10 years, will it be possible for any cricketer to be playing first class cricket and 2020 cricket at an elite level? Because one thing that is fairly apparent to me when I'm watching, the IPL this year, which is a, and it's a trend that's been, been coming, it's just so different. You know, if, if, you know, if you are not scoring at a strike rate of 200, you are slowing things down. And that, you know, we've, and that's, it makes sense that this has become where we're at because we've now got a generation of young batsman who have been range hitting since they were children. Those are the skills that they're practicing and that the, the, the cultural kind of mindset of not throwing a wicked away has gone, you know, that's sort of fading out faster and faster to the point where sort of the biggest faux par now is holding onto your wicket and playing too conservatively as a batsman, rather than, you know, getting out to an aggressive shot, which I'm sure many of Charlie's coaches told. so with this kind of new paradigm, bringing those skills or, or, or trying to play first class cricket and trying to play 2020 Cricket at the same time, feels more and more of a stretch, particularly for batsman, I guess. so do we just need to sort of accept that this tie is gonna be cut and we're going to be sort of. Does that actually make some.

Gaurav Sundararaman 25:54

I totally agree with you, Mike. I think that's the way it is moving. I think the skill sets are very different and with, with Vibe Soya Van, she, we have started the IPL generation of players, people who grew up watching the IPL and wanting to emulate, like when I grew up, I, I am a proper purist. I wanna watch test cricket. I used to watch the English County Championships, which used to be Telecasted in India. You won't believe, when Sean Pollock got four wickeds and four balls for Warwick share. I think, that, that was telecasted live. 19 nine. Those were the moments I grew up with. But today, these guys are growing up with seeing Salma of the world and like Mike said, striking at 200 and parent, would want your kid to get into the IPL or the WPL L for that matter, because you're able to make, bucks much faster if you're talented, you're skilled, rather than playing, a four day cricket. And then, you know, going to the grind. And, especially in a country like India where the chances, the, the odds of getting into the Indian team, especially as a batter, is like you get, what, three, four new caps every two years or one year. So it's like super hard. So if I like. If I have my daughter going up and she says, I can bowl Good Yorkers, that's take you immediately into the WPL because that's a unique skill and that will get you too close rather than me waiting for two, three years. So I don't think it's wrong. I think that like you're absolutely right. The game has moved on. in fact, I want to see specific T 20 training academies, coaching academies starting up. I want people to move on, move away from forward defense and start off with the scoops or the diverse scoops because I think that's the way the game is moving. Having said that, if people want to play first class cricket, think if you want to keep that alive, I think they have to be incentivized. The money has to be. not par, at least somewhere where the player, the the player can actually make a living for his family. because that's going to be the biggest challenge. Why would people come spend four days? I'm looking at it more from India. I, I love watching cricket in UK and Australia. You're always going to get, the audience there for county cricket and there's a big legacy and history. But I think with the market in India, where I think with the way they control cricket, I just feel that, first class Cricket and especially ODI, cricket's definitely gonna die first. Class Cricket will still survive, but you need to really do something to, enhance that. otherwise the IPL generation is going to rather focus on T 20 Cricket and then first class Cricket.

Mike Jakeman 28:28

Charlie.

Charlie Hartley 28:30

Yeah, I mean, back on your, your, I guess your original question, can players pay both? I think if you keep adding, adding in more things. No, no. I mean, when I played, yes. One, one of the things that separated average cricketers from good cricketers was the ability to play multi-format was the ability to spend three days. You bowl 60 overs, you're absolutely bloody knackered. If I'm allowed to say that. You, you're slamming a length over and over again, multiple times, different skills, trying to swing it. Maybe you're bumping someone for, for three over straight at 6:00 PM. And then two days later you've gotta nail your Yorkers and I, I I, that is a tremendous skill that separates the average from the, the, the very, very good. I, I personally think if, if people want to just go down the route of flash fires, it encourages a bit of mediocrity because you don't have to be good consistently. You, you just need to be good once. I mean, if I was a county cricketer, now, I probably wouldn't care about long form stuff'cause there's no, there's no, there's no one cares about it. And you go, you go where the money is and that, that's not necessarily the right thing because if, if you just go where the money is, then you're on this hamster wheel of just basically wanting as much money as possible. And that comes back to kind of the other question, what we kind of spoke about at the start. What I think we need to stop thinking that athletes need to get millions and millions and millions and more every year. And everything needs to be more and more and more. Then it's not like we're talking about people that are paid below the poverty line, that they're paid quite, quite well to do their craft. the other thing is on obviously pitchers have got flatter. and when you're bowling on a glass pitch, very fun as a bowler when someone's just stood their baseball heading. you had kind of the Jade Derm back era where he came in with the slower balls. You now got doing a similar kind of thing. There's only so much innovation that can happen Ebola. so it is turning more baseball like, again, not necessarily a bad thing, but I I the art of the James Andersons and, I mean, bomber, for example, is a perfect. Sort of spectacle, somebody that can jump between the reason he is. And actually I saw a, a short form video the other day. I think it was Sean Pollock maybe, or a few others talking about why he is considered so good. And it is because he can play all formats is because he's just so in incredi. His Yorkers are just next level. And then his ability to slam a length for, for multiple overs is also incredible. That's what makes him the best of the best. If we separate people into little different formats, I, I don't, I think you lose what is so great about, about cricket. The other sort of point to mention on that as well is, and obviously something I've been through myself since leaving cricket. I've written a cricket resource that teaches, teaches how to coach cricket. I've written a children's book that's about kind of, kids enjoying the life lessons we learn when playing cricket. If we focus solely on cricket being fun, go out there, whack it, scoop, whatever. gets distracted by fun. Fun can be replaced by anything at any point during your life. When you're growing up as a kid, it may be your girlfriend, it might be a squirrel running up a tree outside. It might be football, it might be a team down the road. Anything can be replaced with fun skill, very difficult to replace. And again, I think that's one of the detrimental issues of just focusing on money. Kids cricket is such a unique sport. You need to learn the skills'cause it's the skills of the things that you find fun. It is a very, very difficult sport to play if you're not very good at it and you haven't learned the skills. it's fine for, as you, as you mentioned, Mitchell Stark is getting paid a lot of money. He probably doesn't care. They didn't perform that much. I mean, he, he would care a little bit, but goes in, performs a couple of times, justifies his cash. Old Jimmy from down the road that's playing for his local club. Yeah, one, one, good game might be nice, but everybody else is also going. You're not consistent enough going to the twos. And two, you're consistent enough so that there's that weird disparity again.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 32:26

We started off talking about the auctions how much of it is theater? How much of it is real, do you think? How much of it is sorted out beforehand and how much of it actually happens in the room?'cause it's great watching it and it's, it, you know, you can feel the atmosphere to it, so there is a sort of jeopardy there. But how. How does it work really? And what do, I'm, I'm interested in how the players view it and how the, how the sort of franchise owners look at it and what their, what's good and bad. Gu just take us inside that gura for us for a moment.

Gaurav Sundararaman 32:58

I dunno if it's a biased opinion, but there's nothing bad about it. it really makes people like me just go crazy, think hard. it's very hard to know. People's judgment of cricketers, guys. So there's so much of opinions going. So many people have, there's so many great cricketers who have not played for the country, right? all, all over the world, right? You have some, it took Mike Hussey, what, when he was 32, to play for Australia, 31 to play for Australia. Hayden started a bit. He started early, missed, then came back for his second wing. Much later. There's some amazing cricketers all over the world, and even in India for that matter, there's so many cricketers who don't make it, possibly because the selector at that point in time didn't view this player as a particular fitment to the country. Right. Just say, in your case, it's Zach Carley. Like they, they backed him. Backed him, backed him, and they've given him, and by the blink of the eye I am seeing, he's played what, 66 68 test matches. That's a long career for, that's. More than what like 60, 70% of Indian test caps, uh, would've got My larger point is, so the eye for talent is very, very different, which is what makes the auction very interesting. Who I think is a good player may not be a good player to someone else, which is why certain teams buy certain players for cheap. Like you Moneyball certain players like uh, uh, Mumbai, found out about Haik Panda and Jas Boomer at base prices, and today they're legends of Indian cricket. Are you trying to tell me that seven other teams missed out? That they did missed out on a Jas Boomer? Yes, they did, because they, I, for talent is very different. That's what makes the auction very interesting because every coach has their own likes and dislikes. They're way to judge a player. but he. Sometimes you're not able to predict if they will make the shift from domestic cricket to, inter suddenly playing, uh, kg. Uh, some people get found out, some people don't. Indian bat Baters don't play one 40 plus very often in India because we don't have that many bowlers. you're coming to the IPL and facing Mitchell Star. It's not easy. said that, some players do it better than the others. So that is the challenge. That is what keeps us all driving to identify that next big player, and that is what makes the auction very exciting and also makes it you look like a, a great guy or you don't look like a great guy as

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 35:29

One, one of the questions I had, I mean, one of the, it talks to Charlie's framing of what he enjoyed about cricket was the team I, I. focus on individual and the auction does that, that's what it's about. You know, it's about individual players. What about the team thing? Is that a, you know, the sort of, does team culture exist in the same way? That speed up at the same rate? I, Charlie, what do you think about that?'cause it feels like there's a, thing that we don't talk about, which is we talk about individual players and we b them in a room and they go out and play and they're individual batsman bowlers. actually the bit that you miss and the bit that's I is about team sport. So what happens to that and what is happening to that, do you think? Or is it, is that just a rose tinted version of, of sport now?

Charlie Hartley 36:21

dies'cause the turnover rate's so big. I mean, that's just the, that's the simple fact of it. Te team dynamics goes, goes out the window. You don't need to get on with your team anymore. You don't need to play for your team, sort of to reference my children's, but one of the things I mentioned in there is about, uh, like not your spotlight. One of the stories about that, which is of the biggest skills you can do in cricket is sometimes the job you are doing at your end is to help the person at the other end, is to make them do better. dies with this style of cricket because it's totally inherently selfish. You, you, don't want to work for the other person because nobody cares about that. They care about your strike rate and, and how good you look and, and that, that is kind of where the framing of cricket starts to move. the, the biggest thing that, that can't be answered is what is this eye for talent in a game that is inherently stat based? And, and again, that you cannot argue with some of the stat. find a way to argue with it. We find a way to ignore them. We find a way to go, oh, like rugby for example. You can pick someone not based off stats, but based on the way they, they, they control the 10 position or the way they, they maybe have a, um, a relationship with a, with a 12 or the way that, um, somebody else works with various other people in the team. You can argue that in cricket less so that there are certain things that people do bloody well and that they should be lauded for doing well. When we have this eye for talent, which is completely ambiguous and nobody knows, I can't see that being a positive for the game because I, I also then go, okay, again, people growing up, people that were in my position wanting to get selected, maybe talking to the head coach, going, what do I need to do? And I, I, I remember having those conversations, going to my head coach, going, what do I need to do to continue my contract to get picked for the, the first team? And there were some conversations we had where, just keep going. Just, just keep trying. You are like, okay, but I kind of need something. Because if it is just this, uh, maybe then as a cricketer, you, you kind of, you lose a bit of faith'cause you go, well basically I've just gotta suck up to the coach. I've gotta suck up to the person that's paying for it. I've gotta, I've gotta try and play this fake narrative. Or maybe my agent's very good, or, or there's, there's other routes then that suddenly start outweighing the talent of a.

Gaurav Sundararaman 38:49

Uh, in terms of the culture, I, I, I would just like to step in there and argue a little bit against it. So, some things we definitely take into factor is whether this player will fit, the team, will fit the culture, because obviously it may not be a long-term thing, but the goal is to win that particular season. The goal is to win the championship we'll do whatever it takes to kind of do, bring the best possible team and best possible coaches. So you do see a lot of coaches bringing who they're comfortable with. Why, just to answer Charlie's question, that, to ensure that there is a culture for those two months, yes, it's not long term agreed, but at least I know I don't have to deal with. A, not knowing B, B not knowing C and then making them gel. And then, you know, people don't even play together that, you know, you can get run outs and all those things can happen. But, uh, I've been part of teams which have had like amazing cultures and that is actually driven from the head coach. They went from the management, you know, uh, where the results take care of itself. But the culture is great for those one four weeks, right? I'm sure. Uh, when you, uh, watch the a hundred this year, you will find certain franchises trying to bring that back. Because in these four weeks, if you wanna actually win the championship, you need to get the guys together. The moment you don't have that understanding, like what Charlie says, uh, then you, you're definitely not gonna perform. So yes, in the long run, people come in, will go out. Every year you'll have new, new set of teams, but. The end goal is to still win that championship and the game has evolved like that. You have so many leagues. You have so many. The goal is not to play together for one year. The goal is to play together for three weeks, four weeks, and win. And people around it will try to make that work. I'm not saying it's always possible. It'll, it'll work, it'll not work. But there's a conscious effort even at the auction to ans to answer your original question.

Charlie Hartley 40:43

Do, do you not think that promotes jobs for the boys? A little bit. I, I'm, I'm slightly countering my, my previous point and I do believe team is important, right? So I, I I, I get maybe that I'm being slightly hypocritical, but team, team is massively important. But it's important and the structures of cricket in the uk because you may be of, like, for example, someone like Daniel Bald Drummond. I played with him at school. I then kind of played with him at Kent. There's, there's, there's relationships that grow through county systems. So you learn to be mature and you know people well enough that you may not get on in a changing room, but you know the sides of them well enough to kind of navigate it. That's not the case in franchise cricket. And, and to kind of go back to my first point, it does slightly promote, Hmm, I'm gonna pick a load of people I like.'cause the end of the day, they're all pretty good cricketers. We're gonna have a jolly doing it. The golf days will be great, the beers will be great. We're all getting paid well. Wonderful. And again, from an athlete's perspective, someone that used to play and then somebody that was a fan growing up, back to my original point, I think that confuses the system of what we want as a, as a sustainable system in the country.

Gaurav Sundararaman 41:52

Uh, see you. I, might be right with that, but the only challenge is if you're not good at your job, if you've not got the players to actually win you out of your job, it's very cut through as well. So it works both ways.

Charlie Hartley 42:05

Yeah, no, I mean, cricket, as you've mentioned, there can be incredible players that can have bad patches. There can be very average players that can have good patches. Cricket. It's not as easy as just going, these are really good players. This will make great teams. People also get howler. People also have have things going on in their own life. There's so many things that go on. I, I think it's very easy to, to be safe and to, I mean, I, for example, I, I've quite a controversial opinion. I think county cricket at the moment, you can be pretty average to play county cricket, and that's some coming from someone that was pretty average that played county cricket. You, you don't have to be that great. You have to get very lucky at the right time and the right place. And then it's, a lot of it is about relationships after that.

Mike Jakeman 42:48

Where do you think that the designated player rule fits in this? Like how important is that? A, to ensure some kind of team continuity, and B, also to kind of build teams as brands that are recognizable from one year to the next, beyond the fact that they're playing in a similar kit.

Gaurav Sundararaman 43:06

You want to try to do that. The goal is to achieve that, but not every time you can actually go and achieve that. If you don't get the results, you have to move. So the thing is, because these are franchise cricket franchise models. You are dealing with a lot of high achievers and people want to win every single time. So the model is to continue to maintain continuity and get the best out of people, there are models like that. The Chennai model is like that. They've been very successful with continuity. Whatever Charlie says is, uh, in terms of traditional cricketing ethos, uh, the Chennai franchise did that for over 10 years, but when the game moved on, they fell behind. So right now, I, I am with Charlie in a way that if you have five individual, great. If you have five people who are selfish and who wanna do well for themselves, as long as the team wins, I don't care.

Charlie Hartley 44:01

that's an interesting insight into, again, kind of on the other side, what do we want our fans to think?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 44:05

Hmm.

Charlie Hartley 44:06

And again, that is a big cultural difference between how the US like to be fans, how India like to be fans, and how British people like to be fans. Look at why football is so good, the tribalism, the support, the, the undying love for a badge for players, for personalities. That's what, what drives that game in the uk as you've rightly mentioned, it's not the same in the uk in in India, it's not the same in America. It is very cutthroat and people are happy being cutthroat. There's almost an excitement about the cutthroat nature of it. It's almost like, haha, you, you'd not good enough. See you later. You didn't deserve it. It's not the same in the uk That's not that, that's not a similar kind of way of thinking. Uh, and it it, well, again, with the sort of, again, risk of sounding like a dinosaur, it's not a case of not wanting innovation. It's wanting sustainable growth with innovation. And I think much like many things in the world, we see something and go, oh my God, we're gonna go right to the other end of the spectrum rather than finding actually there is probably a middle ground in what could have been done. Rather than going, right, this isn't working, I'll throw it all out. Let's do something new. It's, well, actually, maybe we have a good basis. But it does need some of the flare, some of the excitement and, and I mean, I've said for a long time, the investment into the hundred, if they had put that into the blast, maybe had some DU reduction in teams and made the blast exciting, you would've kept all the brilliance of it, kept the franchise model opportunity, but you'd have been having a way of actually growing it within what's already there.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 45:42

One of the, uh, things I didn't quite understand, um, about what the, the right to match, uh, aspect. And I was sort of trying to get my head around what that, what that was and what it, and what the implications of it are. it's, it seems to be unpopular with the players'cause it puts a, a sort of limit on their price. Is that, can you just explain that to me? Uh, GU.

Gaurav Sundararaman 46:06

So, uh, say for example, I have you in my team this year, uh, but I don't retain you. So, or you say that, Hey, my, I've done really well for you. You're willing to pay me X, but in the market, I think I'm valued at two x. So let me go into the market, see what my value is, and then if you feel that you want to pay me that value, I'll take you or you can take me. you go into the auction and then you have, you actually go for two x then there's another team which is bit for you last, and they, they, they're about to take you for two x because you, because I kind of got you first. They give you a chance to exercise that, right? Okay, take me, but take which, but take him at two extra value. So that is where I kind of have to play the right to match card and I kind of get you for that money. It can work both ways. I've given you the positive side, but if you go into the auction, you can go at half, half X as well. And

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 47:07

So if you all know, if you know your previous team will match your, that valuation, if when a, another franchise bids, what, so the, that's a sort of, the competition is of chilling effect on the price level presumably.

Gaurav Sundararaman 47:24

Yeah, sometimes, uh, you'll just, if you want him, if I want you desperately, I'll just know their balance. I'll know their budget. I'll know what they're likely to spend, and I'll just go crazy for you and I'll get you for that money. I feel like, okay, no, he's not worth that much, I'll just give it to you. Give it to, it to someone else. So, again,

Charlie Hartley 47:46

sport all about now, do you think

Gaurav Sundararaman 47:48

pardon,

Charlie Hartley 47:49

is, is sport all about value of player now?

Gaurav Sundararaman 47:54

it's not.

Charlie Hartley 47:54

That's, that's kind of as an overview. That's kind of what this conversation is boiling down to, basically. Is it about. Skill, legacy, honor, inspiring the next generation. Everything that sport has been for multiple decades. Is it moving now to actually screw that, it doesn't really matter what you do. Go and earn your cash.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 48:14

just a and a and a, just a slight build on that, Charlie, a lot of people come on here and talk about the sort of, the shift from team to star player in terms of the, you know, the relationships. And we talked about fandom earlier. And into your question about actually within the game in terms of the mechanics and the, you know, the, the role of individuals versus the team. I think you do get a sort of momentum towards. answer of your question is yes, and I don't, but I don't quite know, or we don't quite know what the, that's, that feels like a sort of short term social media led lens.

Charlie Hartley 48:48

I think you can have both. That's what's important. I, I totally agree and I'm, I'm definitely not against athlete led kind of stars. And, and they are super important and they do bring in perceived value. And sometimes sponsors will sponsor a team purely because of an individual. Um, I mean, you definitely get that in, in F1. There will be people that will sponsor be, uh, sponsor teams because they want the naming rights of a certain individual with their brand at some point during the year, you, for, again, you kind of gotta a look at it from, from a longevity point of view, how does it balance? So, I mean, as an example, I've built, and I do know a little bit about this. I've built, um, moon I Sports, which is a business about the, the data capture and the growth of personalities. vast majority of followers online are bots now. And people are starting to understand that actually online numbers are in the sky, much like an investment deck. Kind of put down some numbers and hopefully people will like it. Brands are starting to realize that. I built a whole platform and got investment because actually data is, data of fans and insider fans is more important than a per, than just a high flying number. I have a social media page that gets 166 million views a year. It's cool, but I don't know any of them. On the point of athletes, yes, they are super important, the money isn't the thing that makes them important. And, and that's the, the, the crucial aspect of all of this is we need to have athletes having something to go for a goal, something in their line that is not just a cash amount. And, and a great example of that is Duckett versus Bethel In the roots. They've kind of, they've gone, Duckett has turned down, okay, granted, he's been paid, he's being paid. All right? So he's, no violin out for him, but he is turned down a bit of cash to go. I believe for me, his legacy of. cricket and being known for being a very good player is more important than having an extra zero in his bank account. On the flip side, and I don't know Bethel, so I'm not saying this is how he's thinking, but this is a perception. He's gone. Actually, I quite like the money. It, I, I can train in the nets, it's fine. again, that's that nuance of perception and for, for me, that highlights maybe two players that have two different perception of what's important for them, which isn't necess again, not necessarily a bad thing, but we come down to that argument of do we want, is it good for athletes to have, to want to play for their country, to want to improve their stats, to want to be an inspirational figure for generations to come? is it a route to just a lot of money?

Gaurav Sundararaman 51:28

Again, just one point that the reason I, in my theory, the reason Duckett found it much easier to turn down their contract at Delhi is because he's getting that money from the a hundred. Which was not there till last season. So the fact that he's got money from the hundred this year, which is a very good sum of money, he knows that financially he's still okay and he wants to, he's willing to give up not one year, but two years of IPL contracts, uh, to, because he knows the hundred is there. And again, that comes back to the fact that it's not that if Duckett was not my, in my view, if maybe the a hundred money was not there, I would've, I, I'd be very curious to see how he would've taken up that decision. So it's easy to say that he's taken it for test cricket, fine fair, give it to him. with Jacob Bethel could have also done the same thing. But it, I, for him, it's the experience of working with the, without Coley, he feels that, you know, his game might improve 10 times more and he'll be able to earn this money in four, five years time. Whereas Duckett is in a different phase of his life right now. So I just don't get that comparison.

Charlie Hartley 52:34

Yeah, I mean we're, we're, we're in hypothetical land of, of trying to work out how people are thinking, which is, is never a good one. I think it,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 52:40

to podcasts.

Charlie Hartley 52:44

it's, it's more a case of instead of trying to guess how they're thinking, let's look at the perception and almost irrelevant of, of thinking. There is a, a clear perception of finance over, over, over legacy. And again, that's, I'm not criticizing him, them by doing that. Everyone can do whatever they want to do and if playing sport is just about making money, but as someone that has been around the game and seen the impact that can have on next generations and, and. Again, the kind of the platform I wrote was based on having fans be able to book video calls with athletes, being able to watch content about them, being able to learn and be inspired'cause that is what the power of sport is. Without the fans, the sport is nothing. The reason the fans like the sport is because there is some connection to the athletes and I think it needs to lean a little bit more on that legacy, that inspiration, that role model side of it go and earn a lot of money.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 53:42

you, you're getting to the sort of, you know, sport as entertainment question, as it's evolving and, you know, the, the money, investment money wants an entertainment product at the, you know, and whether it's the IPL or the hundred or the Premier League or whatever it is. But increasingly that's, um, predicated on what is the difference between sport and entertainment. You get, there's a whole different podcast, but there is a difference and the question being, okay, continuum from Olympic wrestling to WWE e and every sport is on that continuum. And, you know, increasingly pushing it towards a, you know, pure entertainment format.

Charlie Hartley 54:19

There's quite an interesting comparison here where I, I, I'd almost compare it to a VC firm buying, like a clothing company that let, let's say, a a, a British founded clothing company of high quality, doing very well. Good market people are there, maybe not making the profits it could make, but doing okay. VC Fund comes in and goes, sweet. We'll get everything made outta China or, or somewhere, somewhere else where we can get it incredibly cheap. The quality goes down. Customers aren't happy. And, and they go, well we've making a lot more profit. So that's great, isn't it? It's like, okay, maybe, but then you'll, you'll die off and something else new will come in.'cause that's, that's the cycle of the economics of making a lot of money. Unless you create something sustainable, it will be a flash fire, really exciting. And then it will dwindle. And kind of coming back to the core of the point is actually this auction being in, in the uk, it doesn't necessarily fit the market in terms of the, the UK market. It absolutely fits other areas, which is what they're interested in.'cause they're trying to make that spectacle go into the other areas where they can go to brands and say, Hey, I'd like another zero on that because we're getting eyeballs in other areas. But I come back to the point of, of sustainability is that the right thing for, for the growth? And that when we come kind of on the conversation of ECB and RFU and these governing bodies, their sole purpose should be on sustainability. and grassroots.'cause if it's without that, they're just a, don't know, startup or a VC firm trying to earn as much money as possible.

Mike Jakeman 55:52

I think what is most compelling out of everything is when people are doing the sport at the highest level that they can. the thing that excites me about the auctions is not, is not the entertainment angle necessarily, but this idea that it gives teams another tool to use

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 56:10

I.

Mike Jakeman 56:10

to kind of develop their idea of expertise. I kind of like to hear just last from Gora on how the extent to which he thinks that IPL teams have got better at identifying talent needs. And as a result, that leads to a higher quality of 2020 Cricket. And that I find really interesting, um, and exciting. But I Do you concur with.

Gaurav Sundararaman 56:33

A hundred percent. Uh, I think IPL scouts are far superior than your international scouts, or your international, uh, selectors. So a lot of, uh, today in India, one of the best ways to get into Indian team is via the IPL. Uh, you'll get the odd person from the first class circuit, uh, state teams, uh, state leagues, every, everywhere, any match which is being played, you'll find an IPL scout there. So, uh, you're absolutely right. I think, uh, they're, they're more evolved. They have the bandwidth, they have the money, they have the goal, and, uh, it's very hard, uh, to match. Uh, from a international board, but that's the fact.

Charlie Hartley 57:19

So if we, just quickly on that, if we use that as a, as a idea, if we do directly compare the IPL and the hundred. Let's say in 10 years time, the a hundred becomes the same as the IPL. It's the funnel. It's the thing you want to get to, to get notice, to get into a test team, which doesn't really work with a hundred into a test team. But anyway, let's say that happens. What is the pathway in the uk, which is already broken at the moment, with its system it had, but what is the pathway then?

Gaurav Sundararaman 57:47

The pathway would be definitely be really good at. Uh, short form white, white ball, cricket, and try to get yourself first a hundred B so you'll have feeder tournaments into the a hundred in this ca in this case, it's the blast for now, but the blast quality is something we'll have to wait and watch because the a hundred quality will be fast superior than the blast quality. So in terms of, uh, uh, as a scout, I wouldn't, uh, I'll, I'll have to see whether these guys will be able to actually, uh, live up to that, uh, high to, to the higher level. So, uh. You might find feeder tournaments ha happening in, within each county. Like for example, I'll find a maybe a, a slightly a second division good spinner from UK playing in in second division. And I will try to take him directly to the hundred other than him playing the blast and then coming, if somebody can bowl really quick, uh, uh, at a lower level, I would, I

Mike Jakeman 58:42

You.

Gaurav Sundararaman 58:42

of bypass the blast bypass first class and come to hundred and that would see, that would be the uh, uh, that will obviously he'll catch an eye with the selectors and they might faster him to the England team. So that's literally what's happening in India. So I expect that to, uh, happen, uh, and that

Charlie Hartley 58:58

But

Gaurav Sundararaman 58:58

pathway. Um,

Charlie Hartley 59:00

but much more focused on luck then than skill.

Gaurav Sundararaman 59:05

but there is skill, right Charlie, to get whatever skill he has is, that's what is caught di right.

Charlie Hartley 59:11

lemme give you an example. So I got my county contract because I was bowling in the ICC Champions trophy against, uh, Sri Lanka and West Indies and New Zealand and England in the Nets at Edge. Baston and Var and Graham Ford were, the coaches at the time saw me, like me, the Sri Lanka players asked me to come back the next morning to bowl at them before the game. And then the very next day, Graham Ford text, um, the coach of Kent at the time and said, Hey, this guy's quite good. Do you wanna give him a trial? I got the trial and got the contract. Pure luck, like that, that that's, that's, I wasn't necessarily looking at getting a counter contract. That is pure luck. That is a very unique scenario, to me doesn't highlight the best talent we've got in the country. That then makes it into this scenario where which it works in India.'cause there are so many people. You, you can't, you can't possibly pick the best

Gaurav Sundararaman 59:58

Yeah.

Charlie Hartley 59:59

players in India. You can't, and I think everyone would probably accept that it's similar to F1. I would argue there are some very, very talented people that could be good drivers. They just don't have millions of pounds they can spend every year. If it ha if the a hundred ends up being the thing, the the IPL of the uk, I hear what you're saying, but longevity a and, and as a process to getting into counter cooking as a, as a player growing up, or if I was advising someone, the hell do you advise them to do?

Mike Jakeman 1:00:27

Well, this is, this is where the system is as we've talked about. They will become increasingly different things and it'll be increasingly difficult to build a pathway that works in, in both ways. What Gora suggesting is that the hundred works really well. You build out the architecture to find more good hundred players earlier, which creates more opportunities, um, in feeder competitions. But those people are not going to be the people that you are talking about. Charlie, they're gonna be populating first class leagues. They're different people. Like this is, this is if, if the hundred goes this route and becomes this successful and

Charlie Hartley 1:01:05

So what's the

Mike Jakeman 1:01:06

is,

Charlie Hartley 1:01:06

council cricket then?

Mike Jakeman 1:01:08

that's a separate thing. That's a whole separate situation.

Charlie Hartley 1:01:10

no. They're together. They're absolutely together. You can't, you can't ignore the two.

Gaurav Sundararaman 1:01:13

question is being asked in India as well. What's the point of first class cricket? Because, uh, uh, you play six tests a year. The leading run getter of all the domestic tournaments that has not played for India in the last three years.

Charlie Hartley 1:01:24

But again, not comparable.'cause India has millions, of people. You, you can't, you can't logically look at Indian stats of of, of state level people, uh, people playing domestically in India and go, oh, we'll pick the people with the best stats. Mental you'd get. 5,000 people in a room and, and how you then can't pick it. It is impossible. The UK is different. You look at first class and second class, you maybe can differentiate between pitches and, and places and people that have played against and you can look at certain teams that have maybe put out not so good, it's not so good. Um, sides against certain people that have got hundreds and you can evaluate things. But yet I could do an evaluation of a county stats from last season. Within a week you'd look at it and you'd be able to evaluate some players and then you make decisions based off of personalities. It it, they are the same because if you try and build the hundred as this spectacle and ignore the, the recreational side of it, then you will just end up burning that and then finding some system to work similar in a business that if you just think about distribution, distribution, distribution and you ignore all the fundamentals of, of customer service and things that sit below that. gonna die because you've built no, you've built no longevity. You've built no system or feeder that people can be excited about. You've just built something to earn a lot of money and, and that, that's the crux of it. These two, they are connected. It's very exciting having money come in. But I do think it involves a step back to go, yeah, let's not just say it's a startup, let's burn a load of money. actually look at it and go, what, what? What happens if it goes wrong?

Gaurav Sundararaman 1:03:01

I, I just think that, sorry. Uh, I just think there are two different career path. don't think it's the same. I think if I want to be a white ball, a hundred cricketer, my career path from a young age would be completely different. If I want to be a first class cricketer, play for England, represent England for a hundred tests, my career path would be very different. If you say that I have to do well at both, great. If you're really skilled, go for it. But if you think you can't, you focus on one and move on. Like, uh, I think that's the way it'll go.

Charlie Hartley 1:03:29

W why would a child care about Red Bull Cricket? Why would a parent want their child to care about Red Bull Cricket?

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:03:35

Well, I think it, the Joe root, Vera Coley, Cain Williamson, you know, version of this is the, the best players in the world prioritize test cricket, then it will, you know, that it answers your question. A child looks at Joe Root and says, I wanna be Joe Root. He's out there in white playing in, you know, a, a, a game that is different. think. It is the dilemma. I do, I do. You know, it is the dilemma of the sort of success of 2020. It's, it's comes with the question, and we come back to a lot on this podcast about the ecosystem argument about how you protect the ecosystem. And you, you exactly right, Charlie, about the governing, you know, national governing bodies. There's a governing bit in the middle there, which is really hugely important. And governance is long-term thinking, protection of the game, you know, and the bet that is being taken, not just in cricket bit across the board is make, create a, a, a compelling entertainment product and then monetize that for the ecosystem. That's the point. Now you can see a future where private equity doesn't give a toss about the ecosystem. It just meet, it, it needs a return over a period of time. So if and sovereign wealth, it's. These are different forms of money. And the, the, the big sport business question of the moment is, does the money fit sport or does it fit the ecosystem? Is it the right type of money that is sustaining this? So if once you start to sell franchises and you start to sell franchises to groups that are, you know, they're not it, it could be cricket, but it's tomorrow they'll have a meeting about something else. It's, it's completely detached. And I think once you make that decision, the governance bit becomes incredibly important.'cause

Charlie Hartley 1:05:30

Yeah.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:05:31

that we're talking about are in the hands of the people at the, the cricket boards, you know, and the rugby boards and the football league and the football associations. All of these things that we all care about. The pyramid, the. It's, it's so easy just to cut it off quite often the question on here is, what does the money want? And it's normally more money is the answer.

Charlie Hartley 1:05:51

Yeah, I mean on that, the one, one thing is you, we do have to commend the ECB four is that sport are very good at copying. Like we've spoken a lot about the NFL and the IPL and the auction and, and you, it's the same with football teams going, we need to do aum. No you don't. Xi did a rxi'cause it worked. It worked. It was unique. It was new. It was exciting drive to drive to survive work because it was new, it was exciting. It was something that people hadn't seen before. Then rugby tried to do the same and it absolutely fell on its knees'cause people just tried to copy and that never works. People just go, oh, that works. Let me just plug that in. The one thing we have to commend the E CCB for whether it's right or wrong, and that's again, probably another podcast, but the introduction of the a hundred was new, was different. And, and yeah, the argument of of exciting and longevity is, is a different one. But you have to commend them for not copying, but it is a bit more nuanced than just kind of. Let's, let's build something new and it'll work. You come back to the ecosystem that there isn't one. If this is, this, if, if we are just gonna copy the IPL.

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:06:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Listen, we'll get you back on. These are, we've only just started this conversation.

Gaurav Sundararaman 1:07:00

Yeah,

Richard Gillis, Unofficial Partner 1:07:01

Thanks a lot for, uh, governor AV Charlie. Really appreciate your time. And Mike, as ever, see you on the next one.

Charlie Hartley 1:07:07

Cool. Thank you.