Episode 23: Pesach

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Transcript

Evan: 0:00

Welcome to episode 23 of Shebaz Hebrews, the Jewish fermenting podcast, where we hope to discuss all things home brewing fermenting. Today, we are talking about Pesach. I'm your host, Evan Harris with me today is my co-host Alison Shay.

Alison: 0:12

Hey there. How you doing?

Evan: 0:13

I'm doing quite well yourself.

Alison: 0:15

I'm good. I'm busy, busy, busy getting all my ducks in a row before Passover.

Evan: 0:22

Yeah. I am familiar with that, but I kind of just decided to go to a different place.

Alison: 0:27

See, I'm doing that too, but like between work and everything, there's stuff that needs to get wrapped up and ready before Passover before I go away. Really. So, uh,

Evan: 0:40

to your parents.

Alison: 0:42

uh, we, aren't going to that classic Jewish destination, Florida.

Evan: 0:50

That'll be fun.

Alison: 0:52

Yeah. I'm excited to see the family.

Evan: 0:55

Yeah though. That'll be fun. I'm just working remote from Utah.

Alison: 0:59

Yeah, which is not bad at all.

Evan: 1:01

Nope. We're getting a lot of snow right now, which is odd given that, Passover, you know, spring festival.

Alison: 1:07

Yes. Oh, so Ray is celebration of the spring. also one of the names for Passover in Hebrew, or is Hong Kong Vive, which is the holiday, the spring it's, the first of the three harvest festivals. so it's, you know, the early harvest things. but Evan's got snow, so there's that

Evan: 1:32

I'm also, you know, like 8,000 feet above sea level on the side of a mountain.

Alison: 1:36

fair enough.

Evan: 1:38

Are you having any comments to me?

Alison: 1:40

I am, in lieu of my usual, whatever beverage I have on hand, or is particularly interesting tonight, I am having a glass of milk and some very stale chocolate chip cookies that, although they're stale, when you eat them straight up, they're like the perfect level of staleness to absorb milk really well. So enjoying them, getting rid of them, you know, how it is very tasty. They are for anybody who is interested, just like the regular cookies, the ones that you get in a Harris Teeter, which is a supermarket, it's just those, they go stale very quickly and then they become like perfect for dipping in milk. So would recommend not freezing plain. I would only recommend these for dipping in milk. I would like to not cause any dental work or really hard on their own.

Evan: 2:37

Yeah. Oh yeah. Those sound like they'll be better with

Alison: 2:40

I got them, but I don't know. It's been there tasty as long as you've got the milk.

Evan: 2:47

Sounds good.

Alison: 2:48

Yup.

Evan: 2:51

Yeah, no, I, I am drinking my comments tonight though. I did have a New York bagel this morning,

Alison: 2:56

very nice.

Evan: 2:57

um,

Alison: 2:58

Beer whiskey.

Evan: 2:59

whiskey tonight. I thought about because I'm packing units, I thought about having some of the, the last bottle of Homebrew that you give that I have from you. But I figured I'll wait until, it's actually Passover cause that's kosher for Passover. but this is drama a week. We see snatch with one of the Jews and booze bottles, and it's original and it is a single barrel from single barrel wheat, whiskey distilled aged and bottled in Brooklyn.

Alison: 3:22

Huh. That's fun. I didn't think of Brooklyn. as the best location for a distillery, but that's kind of cool.

Evan: 3:31

Nor had I maybe I'll try and stop by there next time I'm in New York.

Alison: 3:35

You should do that. You should also pet that fluffy dog.

Evan: 3:38

Yes. I'm trying to,

Alison: 3:40

You're what is it, your dog in law?

Evan: 3:43

oh, there's that one as well. I thought you were talking about, my friend, the friend who taught me how to brew his dog is very fluffy and I want to pet the pet that dog and that's rhymes rhymes with doofus on Instagram is the puppy's name. And that's a Goldendoodle.

Alison: 3:58

I think you've mentioned that one before.

Evan: 4:00

Yes, but Lola is, I need to send you more videos of Lola that my sister took yesterday. They're very cute.

Alison: 4:06

Hola is Evans.

Evan: 4:09

My, my,

Alison: 4:10

Cousin-in-law dog

Evan: 4:11

my sister's fiance. Sister's dog.

Alison: 4:16

your sisters

Evan: 4:18

Daughter-in-law.

Alison: 4:19

nephew in law.

Evan: 4:20

Yeah. Well, she also has, well, well, when they're married, she will have a nephew.

Alison: 4:27

Excuse

Evan: 4:27

Who's also very cute who I met in New York. Do you have, was it last week? Last weekend when I was there?

Alison: 4:31

They're all great.

Evan: 4:33

Yes.

Alison: 4:35

Well,

Evan: 4:36

Yeah.

Alison: 4:37

as we were saying before

Evan: 4:39

As we were saying,

Alison: 4:40

The Friday of this week, Friday night, if this week marks the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Passover, which is a celebration of the Exodus and remembrance of the Exodus, if you don't know the story of the Exodus, I'm going to direct you to a book called Exodus. Uh, if you

Evan: 5:04

I thought you were going to say the movie prince of Egypt.

Alison: 5:06

Also excellent. But I'm going to direct you to a book called Exodus.

Evan: 5:10

Yes.

Alison: 5:11

If you have trouble with those instructions, please let me know. We have a separate issue.

Evan: 5:17

Yes, we do not mean the Leon Euro spoke, which is also very good, but that's

Alison: 5:23

We mean the part of the Bible. That one.

Evan: 5:28

one of the five books of Moses.

Alison: 5:30

Yes. so in the book of Exodus, the, as the title may indicate the Jews leave Egypt, And there's, we have this thing called the Seder, which literally means order, which is basically a dinner that we have, where we tell the story of the Exodus. And, and there was a plate called a Seder plate that commemorates different aspects of. So Evan and I were at chatting about what we should do this episode about. And one of the things we came up with was the items on the Seder plate. There's a bunch of them. Which ones then can you ferment?

Evan: 6:19

And because as we mentioned in the last episode, Passover is kind of the anti fermentation holiday.

Alison: 6:25

Yeah. Cause we don't need any sort of leavened bread. We don't eat any 11 to anything. If you let certain grains sit for too long, you're not allowed to eat them. depending on your tradition, some people don't eat legumes and corn. Some people don't eat keenwah, there's all sorts of different things, but yes, essentially.

Evan: 6:46

which we mentioned last time, which I have mixed feelings. Can you, I can never remember that one properly. I have mixed feelings about the different ones in it. Like corn, I feel like made sense. Like corn is not something that was known to the ancient as to ancient Jews. so we know it like, it shouldn't be like we shouldn't be having it. It's too close to other grains. We didn't know about it. Then Sesame is also included and Sesame is known is something that has been growing in the Lavant for a few thousand years. So I have more mixed feelings about Sesame than I do corn with, which are in the same category.

Alison: 7:25

Yeah. Well, how many of these greens are you supposed to be eating anyways? Seven.

Evan: 7:31

Well, it means I can't have homos or cava.

Alison: 7:36

I am not complaining about the lack of Kaaba. Maybe that's just me.

Evan: 7:41

I mean, I'm not normally rushing to eat it, but I do like a good one, especially a good flavored one or really good. It can be a very good base for dessert.

Alison: 7:49

can I direct you to my personal favorite? Passover, friendlier dessert? Actually, I have two of them. one of them is macrons cause I love macrons. I feel like I've brought that up before and the other one and I will, send Evan a link to this recipe because it's delicious. But a while ago for like several years ago when I was in college, I graduated college, I guess, I guess it was 2016, maybe 2015 when I found this recipe. So I've been making it for a while now. I found it before shovel load, which is, a holiday that comes seven weeks after. and it's a flowerless chocolate marble cake. It's kind of fun. It's very fudgy. It's kind of GS cakey with, it's got like a cheesecake swirl. It's very good. It's totally flowerless. And if you use the right chocolate and cream cheese and butter or margarine, then it's totally Passover friendly. It's super, super delicious cake. Strongly recommend it. I will send Evan a link for that. It is not fermented, but it is really, really good. It's like, it's really a fudge. It it's like a cheesecake. We're actually a fudge cake.

Evan: 8:59

I love cheesecake though. So that sounds like something I'd really like.

Alison: 9:02

So let me,

Evan: 9:03

Yeah. what was the saying? But, that's true. Before we get to talk to you about what you can ferment on the Seder plate. If you are not Jewish, do not host a Seder.

Alison: 9:13

yes.

Evan: 9:14

if you think you are the last supper was a Passover meal, but the Seder is a rabbinic item. And so if you were trying to connect to ancient Christianity or something, or be closer to the Jews, don't

Alison: 9:26

not do that. This is not a metaphor for Jesus. Do not consider it to be a metaphor for Jesus. Go lock yourself in a closet for eight days.

Evan: 9:37

Yeah. If you are non Jewish and you were invited to a friend, a Jewish friends, Seder by all means go, that's a completely different issue.

Alison: 9:48

I would like to also add that Passover is a central point of, a lot of blood libel myths.

Evan: 9:55

Yes.

Alison: 9:56

So, a lot of the historical treatment of Passover has been violently violently anti-Semitic. And when I say violently, I mean, many, many, many people have gotten killed over this. If you are a Christian who has an interest in Passover, a readable. And stop making things up about Jesus,

Evan: 10:19

Read a book or ask your Jewish friend,

Alison: 10:22

read a book, ask a Jewish friend, do not try and put yourself in us. It's not, this is not for you.

Evan: 10:28

Yeah. Like we, we can, we literally cannot quantify the number of Jews who've been killed because of blood libel around Passover,

Alison: 10:37

Yeah.

Evan: 10:38

because records are destroyed and Jewish accounts have been destroyed. Thousands of times I've mentioned the, it seems like it's kind of a pet, like a, a favorite topic of mine, the Rhineland massacres. Guess when they started,

Alison: 10:54

And we're going to take guests and say Passover

Evan: 10:56

well, the lead up to Easter during the crusades. Yes. Which means Passover because Easter is set to pass over. It's the only Christian holiday, which still follows our calendar.

Alison: 11:07

generally anyways, sorry. I'm trying not to cheat cookie into the microphone.

Evan: 11:11

And that's fine.

Alison: 11:12

I'm not sure how well I'm doing it. That.

Evan: 11:16

but yeah, so if you want to know more about Passover, there are plenty of books, plenty of resources.

Alison: 11:23

Plenty of Jews who can tell you not to have a Seder.

Evan: 11:26

Yeah, it is. I mean, it's incredibly offensive and, and actively anti-Semitic and supersessionism

Alison: 11:36

Yeah.

Evan: 11:37

so don't, and as we said, you can ask those questions. Nobody ever sends us questions. We'll be happy to answer any good faith questions.

Alison: 11:44

Yeah. If you send us a question that it's not in good faith, We might answer it, but not in the way you want us to.

Evan: 11:54

We probably will answer it in a very pithy way.

Alison: 11:59

Yes.

Evan: 12:00

Um,

Alison: 12:01

As I said, I will tell you to go lock yourself in a closet for eight days.

Evan: 12:06

yes. but so now that, that, this now that, that disclaimer and short grant, is done the Seder plate, let's go in case we have any, anyone who doesn't know let's go over, what's on it for.

Alison: 12:22

Yeah. Also, there are things about the Seder plate that vary regionally. not significantly, like there are still the six major items, but some people use different things for, for. certain items. Like car pass is basically just a vegetable. I have seen a bunch of different things used for it. There is the classics. Um, so these are the six items. Um, well there's Motsa is not really on the Seder plate, but

Evan: 12:56

We'll get

Alison: 12:56

going to include in this, you have this ROA, which is the shiny. Beta, which is egg Maurer, which is bitter herbs Azera, which is also a bitter herbs sort of HARO set, which is a paste, usually made up, well, We'll get to what they're made out of in a minute. And then car pass, which is a vegetable,

Evan: 13:18

That is not a bit of herb.

Alison: 13:20

not a bitter herb, it's just a vegetable. Yeah. So the first one, it says ROA, which is a shank bone. and this is a, representation of the, of the Pascoe offering that the core bond pays off, or Passover sacrifice, which everybody, everybody, every year would come and make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, to the holy temple. and you would get together in a group and you would sacrifice a lamb together. And this is symbolic of, a lot of things. But most specifically, if you remember the plagues, before the

Evan: 13:57

and read that to it's like we just suggested

Alison: 14:00

direct you to a bug.

Evan: 14:02

famous one too.

Alison: 14:03

a very famous one, global bestseller one might even say,

Evan: 14:07

Also the most stolen book in history

Alison: 14:10

I'm not surprised at all. It was probably the only widely available book for a long time. Anyways,

Evan: 14:17

anyway.

Alison: 14:18

we're great at staying on topic. anyways, before the 10th plague, the Jews sacrificed lambs and they painted their, their doorways with the blood of the lamb. And it was a symbol of, Hey we're Jews. the, the angel of death should pass this over instead of coming in, visiting our house and killing our firstborn.

Evan: 14:43

Correct.

Alison: 14:44

So we have a shank bone in memory of the sacrifices that we gave before the temple was destroyed. And that in turn is in memory of the sacrifices that were given before the accidents. you'll hear people talk or I don't think this is a thing that people like are conversational about, but a lot of people have the tradition to not eat roasted meat or to not eat lamb on the first night of Passover, which is the night that historically the Pascoe offering wouldn't be given.

Evan: 15:13

I have never heard that one before, or at least if I have I forgotten about it,

Alison: 15:16

Yeah. Some people have the tradition to specifically eat it, but some people

Evan: 15:22

traditionally we would do brisket and or chicken. And after we talked a bit about the state of play, we can get into family traditions. but, this year, cause, this year my family is planning on doing lamb.

Alison: 15:34

So, oh, we were saying before things that you can ferment that are on a Seder plate, you can ferment meat. There are things that people do to ferment meat. It is a long tradition. I've never done it. I also don't really eat meat. I don't know if Evan's done it.

Evan: 15:53

It is something I've know, it's something I plan on doing because, like pastrami is technically fermented meat. So I want to do it's something I would like to try to do. I would like to make my own pastrami from scratch,

Alison: 16:09

That would be very cool.

Evan: 16:11

but I have some cats pastrami in the freezer right now. So, uh, uh, I'm going to eat that.

Alison: 16:18

Good choice. I mean, I've never eaten anything from Kansas. It's not kosher, it's kosher style,

Evan: 16:24

Yeah, they used to be kosher. I don't know how long

Alison: 16:27

I don't know if they ever were. I really don't think they ever were.

Evan: 16:31

everyone I've talked to says they used to be kosher and now they aren't. And so I've gathered, but I mean, I don't know. That's

Alison: 16:39

well, there's a simple solution to this.

Evan: 16:42

Yes. The, the internet

Alison: 16:45

Yes. Um, One big reason for cats is survival is the fact that it was never strictly kosher paratha, kosher style.

Evan: 16:57

today I learned,

Alison: 16:58

And it was according to the Jewish daily forward. No known mostly just as the forward.

Evan: 17:03

I don't know if it was ever called the Jewish daily forward. It used to be a daily paper.

Alison: 17:07

I think it used to be called the Jewish daily.

Evan: 17:10

I'm pretty sure if it was, that's not what we discussed. My American Jewish history class. We always

Alison: 17:15

Yeah. According to Wikipedia the foreword formerly known as the Jewish daily forward.

Evan: 17:19

Okay. I stand corrected. I thought it was always just the forward or the perverts

Alison: 17:24

No, it was sounded as a like Yiddish socialist newspaper

Evan: 17:28

Yeah. Diverts, which is the forward in Yiddish.

Alison: 17:32

Yeah, Slowly it's evolved into, I think it's mostly just online these days.

Evan: 17:38

they stopped their print public. It used to be weekly print and it went online only in, I think 2019

Alison: 17:48

wow. that's pretty cool. Anyways, in 2013, Katz's deli turned 125 years old, so that's pretty cool in my book

Evan: 17:58

that it is. But back to the Passover

Alison: 18:03

on the topic.

Evan: 18:04

irrelevant Jewish tangent.

Alison: 18:07

Yes. fermenting meats. So that's one thing you can ferment. And I mean, if you can do it with beef, you can do it with lamb. so that's, that's pretty easy hop. that's one thing. What is next on the list? I totally just closed down my page. Had

Evan: 18:28

that's fine.

Alison: 18:29

open on it. Where did it go?

Evan: 18:31

Next would be the edge, which tons of waste to ferment egg.

Alison: 18:35

Yes. you can pick legs. You can make hundred year, a hundred year old Fasten in your old eggs.

Evan: 18:42

Yeah. Thousand year old aids switch.

Alison: 18:44

glasses, which I don't think glass eggs are technically fermented,

Evan: 18:48

I don't know. I've never heard of that.

Alison: 18:50

a water glass. That's what it's called. Water glassing, eggs. it's a way of preserving eggs. You use, a pretty nasty bath that. doesn't really penetrate the eggs, but it preserves them.

Evan: 19:01

Interesting. I know you can do the salt, egg yolk is something I need to try still.

Alison: 19:05

oh, that's good. I don't, that's not technically fermented, but it is very tasty. just quick overview of what this is. I think I've mentioned it before on this podcast, probably. I did this awhile ago. if you want like something umami that you can just shave over something instead of using Parmesan, if you're, if it's meat or if you just don't want to have dairy or you don't have Parmesan on hands, if you don't have permission to enhance this recipe takes long enough that you should go get some Parmesan, but anyways, you can take egg yolks and salt cure them. I use 50, 50, a kosher salt and sugar, like plain white cane, sugar granulated. and I stick them in a food processor with a bunch of, I used rainbow peppercorns last time, which worked really well. We have a cracker peppercorns, some cardamom and some herbs de Provence. and with that up in a food processor, and then you put half of it in a container, a shallow container, make little divots in there, and then you put eggs, just the yolks, put the egg yolks inside the little divots that you make, make sure they're spaced out. And then you cover the top with more of the salt. And then you let that sit for several days. and it, the salt will dry out all of the moisture from the Oak. you may want to, at some point, take them out of there and stick them into a hydrator or dry them off or whatever, because the salt can get pretty moist, which you don't really want. but you can just take those dried egg yolks, which turn into these little pucks and you can just shave them onto your food. And it is very tasty. They are very, very mummy and savory and delicious, and they get a lot of really great flavor from that salt, sugar mixture. And you can also use the salt, sugar mixture for all sorts of other things, because it's just really flavorful. I'm sure you can use it for pickling. That would probably be really tasty,

Evan: 21:06

I mean, you use basically the same mixture to make locks, but you know, you don't eat fish, but a is also incredibly easy to make and you don't actually need that much of the mixture to make locks, which I believe I've explained how to make on a previous episode.

Alison: 21:22

I think we have. Yeah. Okay. Next on the list. my roar mentor, or, we usually use horseradish for this. Uh,

Evan: 21:37

Kosher for Passover for this use.

Alison: 21:39

yes. here's the thing about Mara? Some people just really love chatting down on horseradish. I don't understand it like power to you. Have a great time. Some people really love horseradish. My roommate. Loves horseradish. She like we'll buy a root of it. And just shout down on the thing.

Evan: 22:02

I have not that crazy.

Alison: 22:04

my brother also like, like seeding and like carrot sticks, which have a great time when I take my like teeny tiny little nibble of it. I will give you the rest of the stack. I don't understand it. Some people love it. I'm sure you can ferment it.

Evan: 22:18

Yes, you can. You commit, you didn't do a vinegar, like pickled a horseradish. I enjoy horseradish, but not like eat it like a carrot. Like it,

Alison: 22:27

Nope. Some people are into it.

Evan: 22:29

I've never heard that before. That's okay.

Alison: 22:32

Hmm.

Evan: 22:33

Um, yeah, I guess

Alison: 22:34

to you guys. Enjoy it. I know.

Evan: 22:37

when you're saying you have some people really like, oh look, yeah, I enjoy horseradish. Not that much.

Alison: 22:42

there are some foods that I refer to as like gremlin foods. So my roommate and I each have our gremlin foods. She loves eating black olives straight out of. I will buy hearts of Palm or like marinated artichokes in a jar and she'll stand over her can of olives and em, straight out of there, I will stand over my jar of artichokes and just eat them straight out of the jar. Like there's Brian dripping here. We just shoving our face and it's a gremlin food. You eat it. Cause you feel like, cause it's well, you eat it because you love it. But also you feel like a grumbling when you eat it and you know, go for it. I'm here for

Evan: 23:26

Yeah, I guess so

Alison: 23:28

You got to gremlin food. Evan.

Evan: 23:31

not that I can think of offhand, but I'm sure it sure. I'm sure. As soon as I'm eating, whatever it is next, I will immediately think of it

Alison: 23:39

It's very

Evan: 23:40

you at some random point

Alison: 23:41

Yeah. My gremlin food is yeah.

Evan: 23:45

I'll just send you a photo of the can or jar.

Alison: 23:48

Fair enough.

Evan: 23:48

No contest.

Alison: 23:50

I'll get it anyways. Feel free to let us know if you have a gremlin food. You'd like us to talk about.

Evan: 23:57

Yeah.

Alison: 23:58

If you are a horseradish lover, if you, I don't know, really, really love mashed carrots. I don't know.

Evan: 24:09

Okay. Yeah. That's your

Alison: 24:11

Okay. Mashed carrots comes to mind because I happen to like a sweet potato baby food, like basically sweet potato, mashed sweet potato. That's been put through a sieve. I find it any tasty,

Evan: 24:25

Okay.

Alison: 24:25

but I think carrots are less tasty anyways. Back to a topic at hand. Yes. So next step on the plate. There is how's there at, which is the other. It's like the bitter herb vegetable. a lot of people use romaine lettuce for this. You can also use and that it's not like bitter bitter it's I don't know

Evan: 24:58

Yeah.

Alison: 24:59

the other slightly less tasty vegetable.

Evan: 25:04

in Sephardic communities, they'll use a green onions here.

Alison: 25:08

Yeah. It's basically just some Scott. not the most pleasant flavor.

Evan: 25:15

Traditionally think it's vegetables where the roots are bitter, um,

Alison: 25:20

I think romaine they use it because the stem is better. I think that's why Romain comes to

Evan: 25:27

probably remain as also easy to get, and is even traditionally I think, an earlier season food.

Alison: 25:35

Yeah. I know. And dives get used sometimes too. I've never I've we always use romaine. Um,

Evan: 25:42

Well, I don't like lettuce, so I don't remember what my family uses.

Alison: 25:45

Neither do I, but I think that makes it more valid as a bitter herbs rather

Evan: 25:50

Yes. I, I would agree with you. I would agree with you and I'll use that at this year. Seder.

Alison: 25:56

okay. Next on, wait, hold on. Horseradish is fermentable. We set that. any other vegetable, like in theory you could, I don't know if you'd want to, you'd probably have a better time pickling.

Evan: 26:09

is, has forms of fermentation, but you would a,

Alison: 26:12

think you'd want to do that with a green. I think you'd have a better time with, with like a salt based or a,

Evan: 26:18

yeah. So,

Alison: 26:19

based.

Evan: 26:20

yeah, so something vinegar based and less, salt based, unless you, I don't think cabbage would count, here, unfortunate, like is then you could just say sauerkraut and, and, kimchi though kimchi also includes me. So in many musos are not gluten-free therefore not kosher for Passover.

Alison: 26:36

Yeah, my, my Misa was definitely not kosher for Passover. The other thing that if you aren't getting kimchi, you have to look out for it. it's a lot. If you keep kosher or if this is relevant to you, a lot of kimchis are made with shrimp paste. So I have never I don't think I've ever had kimchi. have tried many times to buy it from the store. I've been to a, couple of different grocery stores trying to find one, but they all seem to be made with shrimp paste.

Evan: 27:07

it's a real,

Alison: 27:08

looking.

Evan: 27:09

it is a relatively cheap ingredient that can be used to increase the umami. so that's why it's used

Alison: 27:15

it makes sense. But it

Evan: 27:16

and there's no nothing cultural in Korea against using it. So we'll have to look,

Alison: 27:23

I'm not going to eat it. So enjoy your kimchi.

Evan: 27:27

well, if it didn't include trim paste.

Alison: 27:30

Yeah. my friend and I have been talking about maybe trying to make some,

Evan: 27:34

It's pretty easy to make you, so,

Alison: 27:36

yeah. But I'll get to it. I'll get to it when I get to it

Evan: 27:42

yeah.

Alison: 27:43

next on the list is something that I think would actually be not only is it, does it seem very fermentable to me, but it also often contains a fermented ingredient. And I'm talking about horo set. Oh wait, hold on. Wait, we've been talking about whether or not they're fermentable. We forgot to say the point of what each of these things are for. We said, we said the rose to Jameson is for the, for the Paskel offering the hard boiled egg. Is a reference to the Corban huggy guy, which was a different offering that you would give at the temple. Um, so basically the, uh, the Pascoe lamb was like dessert sort of. And then before the dessert, you had to give like a dinner offering. So you would eat part of the Corban huggy got, or the, the sacrifice of the holiday, and that would be your dinner. And then after that, you would have a piece of the lamb and the egg is represent the, of, of the meat of the animal for the, for that, Mara and horror. But

Evan: 28:47

of course, none of these sacrifices have happened since 70 CE when the temple was destroyed by the Roman empire.

Alison: 28:54

yeah, it's been,

Evan: 28:56

Just a little,

Alison: 28:56

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

Evan: 28:59

yes.

Alison: 29:01

The next things, that I forgot to say what they were symbolizing, the Mara and the harvest at the bitter herbs. they are, representative of the bitterness of slavery in Egypt.

Evan: 29:15

Yeah,

Alison: 29:16

That's pretty much it.

Evan: 29:17

because Passover is, a story about obtaining our freedom. Again, if you don't know the story re direct, you have to answer this.

Alison: 29:26

the bucket of Exodus guys. I really hope you've heard of the book of Exodus.

Evan: 29:33

Yeah,

Alison: 29:33

anyways, the summary, since I guess I haven't sent it yet because you should know at the accident, it was about, we were sleeves to Pharaoh in Egypt, and then, God brought us out of Egypt, with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Is that the right phrase?

Evan: 29:53

yes. And we were then wandered the desert

Alison: 29:55

Yes. and then I want, and Jews wandered the desert for a long time, 40 years. And they were given the Torah. And then

Evan: 30:04

and he said that we were all at Sinai.

Alison: 30:06

yes, we were all at Sinai. and there's other things that come up like there are 10 plagues that basically forced Pharaoh's hand to let the Jews leave Egypt. You should know the story of the Exodus.

Evan: 30:21

I

Alison: 30:21

really?

Evan: 30:22

anyone in an Abrahamic religion probably has at least heard the story of that set us

Alison: 30:28

Yes. Anyways, back to what I was saying before all rose. this is the one that both can be fermented pretty easily, I think. And I think this would be really tasty. And also it's often made with a fermented ingredients, horse that is a paste. It's like a chutney basically, made up of sweet fruits and nuts. And also it's usually mixed with wine. people put all sorts of things in it. Some people will add like cinnamon and other spices, but a lot of the time you'll see like apples and apricots, like dried apricots, dried plums, pears, walnuts, pecans, all sorts of different nuts. And it makes this like sweet, sweet Chetney it's I've had some really delicious ones. I've also had some that were kind of boring.

Evan: 31:20

Yeah.

Alison: 31:21

If you're going to ferment this, which I, think is very easily doable, it's a lot of fruit. you'd probably want to add in some hectic enzyme in there, or maybe juice it. That might be the better way to go about doing it.

Evan: 31:34

I definitely have some ideas that I'm going to do with some point. but so astronauts, so we've taught in the past, including earlier in this episode about kind of the various, the various traditions of Judaism, both of us are astronauts. We've taught

Alison: 31:48

Eastern European Jews.

Evan: 31:49

our families. Thanks to the Rheinland massacre spent a lot of time in Eastern Europe, in the pale of settlement, et cetera. But, the Jews who were in Iberia and then mostly went to back to the Lavant and, the middle east are as farty. The ones who stayed are Ms. Razzi and then there are all sorts of other ones that, we've talked about. and you can look up more. So I don't have to give you a very short definition of all of the,

Alison: 32:16

Things that we have mentioned before. Sorry. I know we get repetitive sometimes.

Evan: 32:22

Yeah. I'm

Alison: 32:23

we've done a bunch of episodes at this point, and we're not always the best at

Evan: 32:29

We also tend to record it at night and ramble and

Alison: 32:33

and with alcohol

Evan: 32:34

yes,

Alison: 32:35

or

Evan: 32:37

my pancreas will not like me for that, but it sounds delicious.

Alison: 32:40

it is Lactaid milk. I don't know if that helps or not.

Evan: 32:43

It makes it worse,

Alison: 32:44

Oh

Evan: 32:45

but most of the lactose free milks are bio processed. So they convert the glue, the lactose into with Lucas.

Alison: 32:53

Yeah. it is sweeter. I like, I'd be the first one to tell you Lactaid milk is definitely sweeter.

Evan: 32:59

So, yeah. That's why, so it has more, it has more digestible carbohydrates.

Alison: 33:03

Okay. But consider it is also delicious.

Evan: 33:08

So what I actually, norm the Milton normally buys fair life, which is filled ultra filtered that you filter it out, filter out the lactose.

Alison: 33:15

Oh, huh? That's pretty cool.

Evan: 33:18

Yeah. but so with astronauts Cora set, it tends to be midst of like apples, raisins and spices kind of soaked in Manchester.

Alison: 33:27

Yeah. It's very sweet.

Evan: 33:29

It's very sweet. And this is a paste meant to represent the mortar that we use building and building a slaves in Egypt. Uh,

Alison: 33:39

the pyramids and the store houses of

Evan: 33:42

yes. this farty or a set is, tends to be better also more like more looks more like mortar'cause it's like a finely chopped or process or food process, mitzvah dates, and other dried fruit and spices. It's delicious.

Alison: 34:01

Yeah. And I mean, these are just different traditions. we've said it before. We'll say it again. You know, your mileage may vary on all of these things.

Evan: 34:12

And it's not like if it's not like, if you are you can only make Austrian as a core asset or something. These are just the traditions that. Developed, thanks to locally available products and being hard to, harder to communicate for quite a while. Thanks to especially around this time of year oppression.

Alison: 34:32

Yeah. Love that. Always coming up.

Evan: 34:36

Yeah. it's

Alison: 34:38

As we were saying, if you're not, Jewish, don't have a Seder.

Evan: 34:42

I don't have a Seder look just don't I've invited non-Jewish friends to Seders I've had before, but that's completely different.

Alison: 34:50

Or like, I know, I know some families that will be that are, interfaith and like one parent, like it's a different thing when you're getting very involved for like your family,

Evan: 35:04

Yeah.

Alison: 35:06

like my roommate, my roommate status, not Jewish. And he loves attending their Passover Seder. It's a big family event for them. It's really a special to have all the family there and to do like to go through it with everybody. And I think that's really lovely and it's like, that's very different from, or inviting a friend to, to like join in an experience like this celebration with you. Very different than. Hello. we are going to eat the bread that, we used to claim or our religion used to claim we're made out of the, blood of Christian babies and talk about Jesus

Evan: 35:53

Yeah, that, that for anyone who doesn't know what blood libel is, that is literally it, they led light. Well, actually predates Jesus said the earliest times of blood levels go back to the Greeks are claiming that our sacrifices actually were of Greek children. and back when we have the temple, they weren't, human blood is not kosher at all, obviously.

Alison: 36:13

sacrifices. Very explicitly banned.

Evan: 36:16

Yes,

Alison: 36:17

Just to be clear here, very. explicitly banned.

Evan: 36:21

So some of the pre Israelite, Lavant religions did have human sacrifice.

Alison: 36:29

Yeah. And they talk about it a lot in, in like the book of Kings, for example, where they have some Kings who, who went off the Dara, who, who worshiped false gods. And, there's one who they say, the phrase that you'll see is gave their children to the flames. And what they mean is like gave their child as human sacrifice. And, uh, it's uh, it's no bueno guys. It's bad news bears. When you see that happen in the Bible, it's bad

Evan: 37:04

but so what blood blood, what blood libel is, is the claim for the last 2000 years, almost exclusively by Christians, that Jews are making our Passover Motsa with a Christian children's blood.

Alison: 37:20

Yeah.

Evan: 37:20

If you recognize this from modern political discourse, it's been repurposed by Q Anon.

Alison: 37:26

Yes.

Evan: 37:27

but also if you are familiar with the story of the Golem of Prague, the Golan was made to try and protect the Jews from blood libel accusation.

Alison: 37:37

if you haven't heard the story of the goal almost frog, I think It might be nice sometime for us to do an episode talking about things like that,

Evan: 37:46

It would be.

Alison: 37:47

maybe some divots or something, but I think it's pretty cool.

Evan: 37:53

Yeah. Oh, so do I. And I've been to the old jewel in Prague.

Alison: 37:57

Yeah. Basically the Golem of prob hold on, who made the Golem of frog again?

Evan: 38:03

I'm blanking out on the rabbi, but now I'm

Alison: 38:05

I'm

Evan: 38:05

now I'm remembering a post I saw where somebody was asking about why about rabbits making golems and they mistype rabbi and rabbits and, and, and people were joking about how a, a rabbit was staying up all night, trying to make your goal and to protect its human owners.

Alison: 38:22

Yeah. The morale of Prague.

Evan: 38:25

Yes. That that's right.

Alison: 38:27

Yes. it says Judah low Ben, but but I haven't, I don't think that's how you properly pronounce the name. Anyways. The story of the Golem is basically, the Muhar all went out to the river or his,

Evan: 38:42

The chief rabbi, his son and another

Alison: 38:45

Yeah. And they went out to the river, and made a man out of clay, and put under his tongue, I think they put under it set on his forehead, Emmet, which means truth. And they put the name of God under his tongue. and he arose and he protected the people of,

Evan: 39:04

He protected the Jews.

Alison: 39:06

protected the Jews. of Prague. Oh my God. Oh, the ghetto. That's what it's called. He protected the people of the ghetto of Prague, from those who were attacking them. and then when the time came for him to rest, the Maharaj erased the letter Aleph from the word Emmet, which is tough, which means truth erased the letter Aleph to turn it into the word, met them tough, which means death. and as the story goes, the Golem still sleeps in the attic of,

Evan: 39:38

Sure

Alison: 39:39

Yes of the Shoal of the morale in Prague wrapped in the prayer shells.

Evan: 39:45

talus retaliate to be multiple probably. which is something that, Jewish men are true, traditionally buried in a tallest. so you go to the, you can't go to where the Golem is, theoretically resting in the attic, believe it's the attic of the night.

Alison: 40:00

I think it's the Attica.

Evan: 40:02

But you can go to the all-night shore, which is the, which means old news or new old shool with based on how old it is now is the neutral. Now it's the new, old tool.

Alison: 40:11

Yeah,

Evan: 40:12

Um,

Alison: 40:13

uh, yeah, it's, it's a sweet story. I mean, it's not like there are a lot of stories in, in the Jewish tradition about, you know, being attacked by outside forces and. The Golem is one that I think stays with people. It comes up a lot. you see it, people co-opt it for all sorts of mythology. but it's,

Evan: 40:48

you should also get a.

Alison: 40:49

like there's something so nice to people about, like, this was our protector and we built this, or one of us built this, and he's here for us and he's waiting for us and we can call upon him in a time of need. And I think, I think that's just kind of something that people hold on to.

Evan: 41:06

Absolutely. And if you want a hat or a beanie that says MIT, you can get one. Thanks to the, uh, artists are known as my monitor nuts.

Alison: 41:14

Oh, my money's nuts. is also an excellent Twitter follow

Evan: 41:19

I mean, Twitter and Instagram. She's

Alison: 41:20

and Instagram. Yeah.

Evan: 41:22

because I mean, yes, at one point in her bio read my monities as in the 12th, centrally 12th century philosopher and doctor and nuts is in these nuts.

Alison: 41:32

Yes, truly an icon

Evan: 41:36

Her art is very,

Alison: 41:39

very great. It's very nice. It's haunting in a lot of ways

Evan: 41:43

hon haunting is, is a term I was searching for. It is very good, very well done. A lot of it's not necessarily what I would want to like hang up in my own place, but it is very well done. And so if you liked her style, it's incredible. I have thought about getting

Alison: 41:59

check. Yeah. We'd recommend checking it out,

Evan: 42:03

Yeah.

Alison: 42:04

back to where we were. Way, way back.

Evan: 42:08

I mean, a Passover is a holiday about storytelling and telling the stories of our salvation. So the Golem is on topic.

Alison: 42:15

Yes, It is on topic. Well,

Evan: 42:18

It is a extended Haftar. It is not, it is not, not the original story, but it is a re related story to tell.

Alison: 42:27

And the haftorah or the origins of the haftorah is a story that we should tell another time. It's an interesting one

Evan: 42:35

Yeah. If you think we've, if you think we've offhandedly mentioned things that you want to know about, let us.

Alison: 42:41

because we will talk about them more and we will probably also bring up more things off hands that we will forget to talk about in a future episode. So give us a shout anyways. Roset you can ferment this pretty easily because it's made out of fruit. If you're going to ferment it, I would recommend leaving out the wine. Maybe use some grape juice with no preservatives, because a lot of wine will have additives in it to stop any, or like store-bought wine will have additives in it to stop any further fermentation or alternatively, it might have enough alcohol in it that you can't start up a new format.

Evan: 43:18

Right. But if you're, if you add wine that is preservative free to something because of the other stuff, especially if you had any water, you'll drop that back down and theoretically be able to ferment it again. However, my thoughts and this is something I'll probably do during cider season. After I do my, after I do the next year's batch of sizer. I might try and do a thorough set wine that from apple, from cider and date syrup with spices added, I think that could be really

Alison: 43:47

that sounds really good.

Evan: 43:49

Um,

Alison: 43:49

Dates are up is I've mentioned this before. Dates are ups on my list of things to try to ferment. It's just hard to get your hands on a large enough batch.

Evan: 43:57

And that's part of why I don't, I don't necessarily need enough to be the big part of the ferment of the fermentable sugar. I want it to just be there for flavor mostly for flavor. So you use the apple for the majority because it's also cheap to get apple cider, use that for the majority of my fermentable sugar at date syrup. If I could get pears, even just soaking Apricot's, dry soaking, dried apricot would be another good item. I, I would probably skip the nuts, just, I don't know how much that would you'd get through,

Alison: 44:27

Probably not much.

Evan: 44:29

but I would add, I would add cinnamon and nutmeg and kind of some of the other spices that you see.

Alison: 44:34

Yeah.

Evan: 44:35

Some, some set, a little bit of citrus as well to give a little bit of sharp note.

Alison: 44:40

I, Yeah. I, I think I'm a little overly cautious about adding citrus to my bruise these days,

Evan: 44:48

Yeah,

Alison: 44:50

as I've mentioned before, orange pomegranate is really not a great combination. it sounds good. Don't do it.

Evan: 44:59

No, I, my thought would be like for a five gallon batch, maybe add one or two lemon, like the zest of one or two lemons,

Alison: 45:07

oh yeah. Yeah. That's a good one.

Evan: 45:08

or maybe a lemon and an orange or something like that. I want to stay away from lime. I feel, but like lemon probably would be the main one.

Alison: 45:15

Yeah. Okay. Next step car pass the vegetable, the green thing. people use a bunch of different things for this. some people use a boiled potato. We usually use so celery stalks, and it is reminiscent of the work the Jews did as slaves. it also like it's a reference to like the number of men, who were enslaved in Egypt. I don't remember exactly how that one. works. It's some like rearranging of the letters.

Evan: 45:50

I think it has to do something with grandma's trio,

Alison: 45:53

Yeah. I think it's a good mantra thing, which is like a numerology sort of thing where you take, the letter. of the words and equate them into

Evan: 46:04

I'll yeah. The first letter I'll have is one batch to the second letter is two, et cetera.

Alison: 46:08

and then you get up, then you go to 10, 20, 30, up to a hundred and then a hundred, 200, 300, 400 is tough, which is the last step. But last letter of the

Evan: 46:17

so that's why in Judaism 18 is considered a lucky number because high, which means life is, has a value of 18.

Alison: 46:24

Yeah. So that's the last item on the Seder plate? the vegetable, you can ferment vegetables. This is the thing you can do, whether you want to use a potato, which is super easy, because then you, can just make yourself some vodka not legal in the United States. We do not advise anybody make vodka.

Evan: 46:42

you could make potato wine, the pro the precursor to distilling it.

Alison: 46:46

Yes,

Evan: 46:47

Um, I do not know how that would taste. I do not think it would taste good.

Alison: 46:52

probably not. I feel like it would probably be pretty bitter. I

Evan: 46:56

yeah, I feel that this is something that I've kind of wanted to make, like a one or two gallon batch of just the same. I've done it and see what it's like, and potatoes are cheap.

Alison: 47:06

they are cheap.

Evan: 47:06

So a look and a two Dalen batch is so small, it wouldn't matter. Um,

Alison: 47:13

but, but then you, one gallon is a good size for things like this, because you don't want to get stuck with several gallons of something gross.

Evan: 47:22

but the thing is because potatoes are so cheap, I don't mind pouring it out. I wouldn't mind why the bottle's good.

Alison: 47:29

to end up,

Evan: 47:30

the

Alison: 47:30

oh, the cardamom maple. It's gotten a lot better. It's not great. I would not call it. Great.

Evan: 47:35

Now it's a lot better than when it, when I first

Alison: 47:37

like moderately palatable. Now.

Evan: 47:40

I thought about pouring it tonight.

Alison: 47:42

I opened the, uh, the half wine model, the 3 75 milliliter bottle than I felt recently. And it's like, it's drinkable. It's not great. I wouldn't like. Has it with dinner.

Evan: 47:58

no, but.

Alison: 47:59

I would sip it with like a little bit of ginger added, but it's not, it's not amazing.

Evan: 48:06

it's not, not amazing. We'll figure out there's gotta be something to do with this, with this concept though.

Alison: 48:11

Yeah.

Evan: 48:12

I think Ginger's going to be included

Alison: 48:14

Cardamom was not the best choice of mix. It's too strong. Like the cardamom is too strong in the wrong way.

Evan: 48:22

Yeah. but so one of the things about car boss

Alison: 48:26

vegetable,

Evan: 48:27

yes. Is, the astronaut's the custom, it is traditional to dip it into the saltwater, which is the tears because we were

Alison: 48:34

why is this night different from all other nights is a line you will hear soon enough

Evan: 48:38

Yep. Uh, because, uh, we, on other nights we can, we do not need to, Debar a car pass into salts, but we can't, but we have to tonight and plenty of other, right.

Alison: 48:51

tonight. We dip twice.

Evan: 48:52

It's a true.

Alison: 48:54

That's that's what

Evan: 48:55

I've tried. It's been a year since I've read these, read this.

Alison: 49:00

on Passover, we read these quests or the youngest person at the table usually reads the four questions, which are questions about the night, kind of opening up the discussion about like weird things that a small child would notice. tonight, why did we recline tonight? Why do we eat matzah instead of bread? and another one is why tonight do we dip twice? When normally we wouldn't dip our food at all.

Evan: 49:27

correct.

Alison: 49:28

So you did the car pass into saltwater. So the, uh, the greens represent the, the labor and the saltwater represents the tiers.

Evan: 49:39

Yeah.

Alison: 49:41

Like the tears of our ancestors.

Evan: 49:44

One

Alison: 49:44

cheerful.

Evan: 49:47

One thing I learned recently though, is also, uh, some communities, especially Sephardic communities, dip in vinegar. And apparently there's an even older custom to dip into her offset that the some Yemeni Jews still practice.

Alison: 50:04

I mean, they all make sense,

Evan: 50:07

Yeah.

Alison: 50:08

like eight, whether you're dipping into the thing that symbolizes the mortar or you're dipping into something else that's bitter. I don't know if bitter is necessarily the right name for your vinegar, but

Evan: 50:22

It harsh vinegar, harsh would be a determ. It is representative of the labor and pain that we, of our time in Egypt though, historically from an archeological perspective, there's no evidence of the Exodus. However, Israel. Was under control under kind of the patrol police, the political patrol of Egypt several thousand years ago. So some of it may be more metaphor than literal.

Alison: 50:56

But there's, there are like mentions of the Israelites and their stuff. That's like kind of more circumstantial than anything else.

Evan: 51:04

it it's athlete. It is.

Alison: 51:06

it's not like, oh, there was this group called the Jews who were slaves in Egypt, but there's, you know, there's circumstantial stuff about it

Evan: 51:13

Yeah, no, it's just a combination of things from like, especially the numbers that are the number of Jews that the book of acts that disclaims left Egypt would have left doesn't doesn't add up, um,

Alison: 51:27

And there are, there is a lot of commentary on this that like where we would today translate something as thousands. The more commonly, uh, the more common at the time, meaning for the word, uh, Ella theme would be like, uh, little tribes or clans. So as opposed to being a thousand, it means there were 600 like smaller family claims.

Evan: 51:54

Yeah, so,

Alison: 51:55

And that makes a lot more sense. Numerically, just based off of like what kind of population growth you can get with the amount of time that they were in Egypt.

Evan: 52:05

Um, but so the other, that that's right. And we can talk more about this if people have questions because there's a lot of it and Passover is in pests, off in the state are a lot about remembering and retelling the story. Uh, so that every generation remembers the suffering that we encountered.

Alison: 52:22

Yeah. we are obligated to tell the story to our children And, to teach ourselves, to remind ourselves and also to remind our families and

Evan: 52:32

Yeah. And, um, an interest, an interesting story on that note that I learned about crypto.

Alison: 52:39

Yeah.

Evan: 52:39

Which brings up everybody's favorite thing? What

Alison: 52:45

Oh, oh. Uh, there is a band that my parents played very often when I was a child. Um,

Evan: 52:55

I'd like to the w you've linked to in the show notes the other day?

Alison: 52:58

uh, probably I was raised on their music. May I have a song called a Morano about,

Evan: 53:08

yes. You, you told you, you mentioned this. This is not what I was going to say. Um,

Alison: 53:13

They talk about crypto.

Evan: 53:15

it's something that nobody expects.

Alison: 53:19

Oh, the Spanish,

Evan: 53:23

That's the Spanish inquisition fears,

Alison: 53:27

weapons,

Evan: 53:28

fear, surprise, surprise of fear. Um, no, it's

Alison: 53:32

among our weapons are,

Evan: 53:37

So crypto Jews very important, very important to the story of the Spanish inquisition. but so I've met when it was in portrait. All, we had a Jewish tour guide who was the dissent he's openly Jewish, obviously at this point. but his family were crypto Jews escaping the Portuguese inquisition. And so his family, had this, he still has it, this giant dining table that had been passed down generation to generation that had drawers in it.

Alison: 54:04

Ooh, what was hidden in it.

Evan: 54:06

So the drawers were for Passover. So what they would do is they would have the Seder, but in front of everybody and he still does this, apparently they would place playing cards. They had placed at least one playing card. So if the inquisition knocked on the door, all the dinner plates pulled off into the drawer and you picked up the card. So, you know, oh no, we're just, we're gambling. You'd have the wine cups, just drinking wine and gambling. That's fine. Oh no, we're just playing cards. How are you tonight?

Alison: 54:33

That's pretty cool.

Evan: 54:34

so that was a really interesting thing. I learned about crypto Jews and the crypto Jews in who, the people, the Jews who were, who hid instead of managing to escape in both Spain and Portugal have a lot of very interesting stories. There was one town that before the Portuguese expulsion of Jews was basically a hundred percent Jewish, but one town along the Doro river, which is where port has made, like the river, the door of valleys has the door river, the towns on the Dora river, and bait until the 20th century, they basically pretended like everyone knew it was kind of an open secret in the later in the latter parts.

Alison: 55:13

They're all Jewish.

Evan: 55:14

yeah, no, but everyone knew that they were Jewish and they were all hiding it. And they had a church and a regular church services that almost everyone attended, but like in the 17th and 18th, by the time the portrait is at inquisition was on the books until the mid, mid 18 hundreds. It started in 15, like 1506. So this entire,

Alison: 55:38

the inquisition started.

Evan: 55:39

inquisition started

Alison: 55:40

Okay. I was like

Evan: 55:42

No. Yeah. The Spanish inquisition started in 1494.

Alison: 55:46

1492 Columbus sailed The ocean blue.

Evan: 55:48

it 1492 was the expulsion of Jews. Dean position started two years later,

Alison: 55:52

Okay.

Evan: 55:53

but yes.

Alison: 55:54

I do still remember most of that book by the.

Evan: 55:57

which one?

Alison: 55:58

1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue. He had three ships sailed from Spain. He sailed through sunshine, wind and rain.

Evan: 56:05

Oh yeah. Yes. Um,

Alison: 56:07

I think every small child had to read that. At some point

Evan: 56:10

Yes. The, the, uh, the poem.

Alison: 56:14

you sailed by 90 sale by day. He used the stars to find his way compass also helped. So no,

Evan: 56:19

There's also some really interesting stuff. Looking back on the history of Columbus, is he the amazing person? A lot of people like to claim me as no. Is he the absolute evil? Some other people like to claim his? No, I'm sorry, but like, he was not great. He was definitely not great, but, there's a lot of revisionism on both sides of that argument.

Alison: 56:40

also if I can direct people to a book. Yeah. Columbus, not a great dude. I do think also we have to think about it in the lens of like this. Not a modern dude,

Evan: 56:54

No.

Alison: 56:55

like not good killed. Many people

Evan: 56:59

Yeah.

Alison: 56:59

did not intend to give disease to every single one of them

Evan: 57:03

Other people of his era did

Alison: 57:05

did

Evan: 57:06

he, he did not. He, part of the reason he was persecuted, like he was arrested by the Spanish crown because he wasn't violent enough.

Alison: 57:17

Was there still lots of raping and pillaging? Yes,

Evan: 57:21

Columbus, not a great dude. And also some people try and make him out to be the word. One of the worst people in history I'd argued against that. Still not a good person.

Alison: 57:33

yeah.

Evan: 57:34

Also probably some people try and argue that he was Jewish. Probably not. His navigator was at least one of his navigators work.

Alison: 57:42

Anyways, what I was trying to say, you. If anyone is interested in an interesting book, not necessarily the most historically accurate as you will, immediately notice. and also not written by a Jew, but it's called the Queens fool. it's about, it's it's by Philippa Gregory. Who's written plenty of other, like tutor era, historical fiction ish books. and it's about this girl. Who's who, who goes by the name, Hannah Green. and she and her father have fled the Spanish inquisition to England. They are Jewish and she discovers that she has, a little bit of a, a prophetic eyes. and she becomes the Queens wise fool, the queen being, Mary, the first of England also known as bloody Mary. So interesting book, about a girl trying to hide being Jewish in the tutor courts, but I read it. I enjoyed it.

Evan: 58:50

I will have to look into that. I'll add it to my list. I also have Tevye, the dairyman and my.

Alison: 58:56

Have you dermal Hickman? If I haven't mentioned it before on this podcast is possibly one of the most depressing books I've ever read it. Is it great? Yes. Is Tevya one heck of a character. Like if you think he's a big character in the, in the movie, in the play, in the musical, like the stage musical. You do not understand how big of a character Tevye is like he has personality and like, you do not understand how much personality this

Evan: 59:33

So it's on

Alison: 59:34

also has such a sad life,

Evan: 59:35

yeah. Now I will also link to an article that I sent you earlier that I was reading, in the efforts about a all Mormon production of Fiddler on the roof at BYU.

Alison: 59:49

which is certainly a choice.

Evan: 59:52

It is very, it is a very interesting read.

Alison: 59:55

I'll have to check it out.

Evan: 59:56

yeah. So the last major food of Passover that we haven't really talked about somehow.

Alison: 1:00:01

is the bread of our affliction.

Evan: 1:00:03

Yes,

Alison: 1:00:04

This is our bread of not shitting for eight days. yeah, get, get your dried fruit and laxatives. Ready now, folks.

Evan: 1:00:12

yes. Which is Jews are already known for a intestinal issues.

Alison: 1:00:15

Yeah.

Evan: 1:00:17

But Motsa, which is unleavened bread. It is a cracker that some Christians, apparently you love, I don't get it.

Alison: 1:00:25

I don't get it. either, but I have been asked to give people my leftover Matsa before. There's also a, we've mentioned a lot of differences between Ashkin awesome. And as far as him and misery, one big one is, on Passover. Is that smart? I'm traditionally use a salt. Matsa, which is more similar to roti, which is something we can talk about another time. but as far to me as a soft Motsa it's, in my opinion, tastier and Ashkenazi Musa, a hard cracker,

Evan: 1:01:00

Yeah. So part of the reason I shouldn't use the, this square hard crackers industrialization,

Alison: 1:01:07

it's very easy to make,

Evan: 1:01:08

yeah.

Alison: 1:01:09

which is just to be clear here. I can make a batch of roti real easy. Neither of them is difficult to make.

Evan: 1:01:18

but so. The definition of what mods has to be is you have to make flat use flour that has never encountered water.

Alison: 1:01:27

And, you may hear the term Shamara,

Evan: 1:01:29

Um,

Alison: 1:01:30

uh, from the Hebrew root. Uh, shin memory, which means, is used for, to watch over, to be observed basically Shamara Motsa would be Matsa that is carefully watched over the flower has been carefully washed over it's that it's a very high level of, we're not letting any moisture get anywhere in your hair.

Evan: 1:01:55

yeah, so it's the, the most strict watching of the flower.

Alison: 1:01:59

Yeah,

Evan: 1:02:00

and from when the flour and water first come into contact, it can be no, traditionally, at least in astronaut, tradition, it could be no more than 18 minutes until it is fully.

Alison: 1:02:12

yeah.

Evan: 1:02:13

Uh, Dan 18 important number in Judaism.

Alison: 1:02:15

Shows up a lot.

Evan: 1:02:17

Yeah.

Alison: 1:02:19

So that's not so for you,

Evan: 1:02:21

did you know though? There's now Matsa on the ISS.

Alison: 1:02:25

I did not know that.

Evan: 1:02:26

Yes. arriving the other day

Alison: 1:02:28

lots on the ISS.

Evan: 1:02:30

MOTS on the ISS, which is there is a, Israeli, astronaut, name. And I can't, I have the article up, it turns stripey brought Matsa to celebrate Passover in space. I presume he brought Sparty style Motsa and not astronautics Del Motsa because crumbs and bits are very no-go in space.

Alison: 1:02:49

Yes. And if you want to hear more about that, I'm going to direct you to another book that I have mentioned a million times on this podcast, packing from ours, the curious science of life and the void by Mary Roach.

Evan: 1:03:01

Just read all of Mary Roach.

Alison: 1:03:03

She's fantastic. Just read it. You're going to like it. I don't know of anybody who hasn't loved Mary Rose's work

Evan: 1:03:09

She's amazing. I mean, I've talked with her a little on Twitter, which is wonderful.

Alison: 1:03:15

yeah. She's just like, and she makes science feel so accessible

Evan: 1:03:22

Oh, absolutely. The one of my favorite

Alison: 1:03:25

and yes, you are hearing that from a pair of mechanical engineers.

Evan: 1:03:28

Yeah.

Alison: 1:03:28

do both have multiple degrees in engineering, but like I say that as you know, I'm used to reading, I have read plenty of really heavy science articles. I've read like actual academic papers when you find somebody

Evan: 1:03:47

academic papers, written patents to their dense.

Alison: 1:03:51

The very dense. when you come across these things that are well-explained and use accessible language, it's something that's really noticeable. Especially if you're used to reading much, like much more painfully worded stuff, you really come to appreciate the stuff that's worded in a way that like gets the points across easily without using a 15 syllable words.

Evan: 1:04:19

Yeah. And the other thing is it's not just a simplification, but so she talked, she manages to write in a way that is both accessible, but not oversimplified.

Alison: 1:04:31

and she's so funny.

Evan: 1:04:33

Apparently she and Neil Damon have agreed to do, bar trivia. The next time they're in the same location based

Alison: 1:04:40

Oh my God.

Evan: 1:04:41

I want to be at that

Alison: 1:04:43

I want to be a fly on the wall.

Evan: 1:04:47

for anyone who doesn't know, Neil Gaiman is a very, a very good writer who TIS sort of defined modern fantasy. Look. A lot of modern fantasy is either him or influenced by him. And he's Jewish. He's not, not very observant, but he's very good.

Alison: 1:05:04

Yeah. He, he is very openly, proudly Jewish. He'll absolutely say it. Um, but I mean, there's, there are people that you can list is like the modern fantasy giants, Terry Pratchett, who, uh, has passed now.

Evan: 1:05:22

And Neil Jameson's good friend.

Alison: 1:05:23

Yeah. Yeah. Ursula Kayla Gwynne. Um, you'll game in there. Like there are those big names that you hear and he's definitely one of them. Um,

Evan: 1:05:38

Yeah. So read Neil Damon read good omens. That's the, that's a good place to start.

Alison: 1:05:44

Yes.

Evan: 1:05:45

Um, American gods is wonderful. Basically everything you've done

Alison: 1:05:49

He has a great book of short stories.

Evan: 1:05:55

Which one? There are a

Alison: 1:05:58

has multiple books of short stories.

Evan: 1:06:00

Yeah. He also did an entire book on north, on Norse mythology. And the other thing is everything. If you like audio books, like I do every single book he's done pretty much. You can find it, him narrating and he is a wonderful narrow.

Alison: 1:06:16

hang on here. It is. and Emerald,

Evan: 1:06:22

Oh, that one's drew it. That was really

Alison: 1:06:24

I'm thinking of.

Evan: 1:06:25

So I read a study in Emerald is a specific story based on Sherlock Holmes. And

Alison: 1:06:32

I, well, I've the thing is that I'm looking up the name of the short story book, um, that I read, but I remember the first w it, it was the F it was one of the first stories in the collection of short stories that I read of his.

Evan: 1:06:49

are you talking about the Sherlock Holmes influenced one?

Alison: 1:06:52

Yes, that's the one? It was great. It's like Lovecraft,

Evan: 1:06:56

So it's a Lovecraft in Charlotte comes. I read that story. I don't know how many years ago, like middle school probably didn't know who Neil Damon was. Didn't remember it, but didn't think about it. Didn't remember until I went back after I discovered Neil Gaiman, which was in college when I cause a friend of mine, who's been mentioned on this podcast before, I was staying in Ann Arbor that summer. He was on his book tour, frozen at the end of the lane. and so she was out, she was out of town, wanted me to get something signed for her. So I said, sure, why not? I'll be a fun night. I'll go to a random book, lecture like book reading and signing. It'll be fun. And like, I was like the third to last person there, but he was signing with fountain pens. And that's how I got into fact and pens as well. So I found out like I've gotten the fountain pens and found one of my favorite authors.

Alison: 1:07:41

I mean, to introduce you to using it to calligraphy pens, it's not a fountain pen, like a true calligraphy pen

Evan: 1:07:48

but dip, dip calligraphy.

Alison: 1:07:51

calligraphy.

Evan: 1:07:51

have one, but I need an angled holder to do proper calligraphy, proper European style calligraphy.

Alison: 1:07:58

this is, I don't think this has come up before on the podcast. I write, I have very slow handwriting. I've always been a very slow writer. And I discovered at some point, then I write much faster when I write in cursive and I got to high school and I was in art class and we had a calligraphy classes. One of the options you can take as an art class. and one of the art teachers said, took one, look at my handwriting and was like, you need to take this class so I can do calligraphy, or a particular style of calligraphy. and my handwriting, I write almost exclusively in like this very, declaration of independence,

Evan: 1:08:39

Let's strip Tarion cursive.

Alison: 1:08:43

Yes.

Evan: 1:08:44

Yeah. I use a more modern cursive for the most part, with a bit of kind of engineers slash architect style block.

Alison: 1:08:54

This is a very messy page.

Evan: 1:08:58

Let me show you what my notes from work. That that is very pretty.

Alison: 1:09:02

This is messy for me.

Evan: 1:09:04

This is messy for me.

Alison: 1:09:06

Yeah. Anyways, calligraphy is fun. I like using the pens. There's all sorts of fun things you can do with water colors and with treating, treating calligraphy and, And paints as kind of interchangeable in certain ways. And watercoloring with it. There's a lot of really fun. It's a really cool medium, or style for that I think is under utilized

Evan: 1:09:31

Yeah. I, I do need to try point pointed nib calligraphy more than cause I have the thing. I tried a few times and I haven't done anything with it.

Alison: 1:09:39

Yeah.

Evan: 1:09:40

Um, I got some quills from a friend who hunts,

Alison: 1:09:44

very

Evan: 1:09:45

so I should send some, I've been working on a while ago. I was working on trying to do properly Turkey, Quill

Alison: 1:09:52

I have never tried it.

Evan: 1:09:54

I can send some to you if you want.

Alison: 1:09:59

Um, I mostly, I I've got too many art supplies in here already

Evan: 1:10:03

And we still haven't finished. Motsa Matsa

Alison: 1:10:06

finish Motsa

Evan: 1:10:08

we'll see how much

Alison: 1:10:09

so good at this.

Evan: 1:10:11

some of that throwing you a tangents episode? I mean, our tangents episodes are some of our most popular, so we are good at those.

Alison: 1:10:19

Yeah.

Evan: 1:10:20

but so Matsa is the bread of our affliction, as we said. and it

Alison: 1:10:24

I'll ask my Anya

Evan: 1:10:26

it is fermentable, which is kind of funny. somebody makes beer out of Motsa. He takes leftover Matsa soaks it. He made it to beer.

Alison: 1:10:36

and there is something called a Gebra that some people doing. the Bronx is basically where you take Motsa and then You wet the Matsa and you make the wet Matson to other things. Um,

Evan: 1:10:50

You drive the whites than what the drive.

Alison: 1:10:52

yes, exactly. so if you do eat Gebra then there's all sorts of interesting things you can make with them. Matzah balls are good, bruh, for example, if you made beer out of Matsa, it would be good bras.

Evan: 1:11:10

Maybe I will try that for next year, just to say I've done it. Or maybe after Passover this year, just

Alison: 1:11:16

I don't think it would taste great. I don't know why you there's no good. The only good reason to do it. would be for the, for like the curiosity and for the, why the heck not try this ones, but I don't

Evan: 1:11:32

of what we've suggested people do.

Alison: 1:11:34

Totally. but as always, if you're going to make something that's really like off the wall or you don't expect it to be good, because

Evan: 1:11:44

Yeah. So I'll include the link to the article I found, but, for his signature Matsa brow, a dark beer with that unmistakable toasty note of the bread of affliction.

Alison: 1:11:55

gross hard. No, for me

Evan: 1:11:58

yeah. Well, if you're in the Portland area, apparently he makes it there. Or at least

Alison: 1:12:02

the wet area,

Evan: 1:12:03

Portland area, or at least did in 2012. That's right. I mean, Matsa briars and other very good, good products.

Alison: 1:12:14

Not really.

Evan: 1:12:16

Oh, I love Motsa Bri.

Alison: 1:12:18

Yeah. Go for it. Enjoy there's lots of, you know, mixed opinions about the foods on this holiday. Not everybody is going to agree on what they do and do not like, and you should do whatever floats your boat and whatever gets your goat, whether or not it's your father buying the goat for Tuesday museum, and then it gets, and then he gets eaten. Um, Reference to, to a drinking

Evan: 1:12:53

We talked about it last episode, how God, yeah.

Alison: 1:12:55

did. I get, yeah.

Evan: 1:12:57

I forgot to look up who the, uh, who the Canadian Jewish news. The side of was the God. Yeah,

Alison: 1:13:03

what.

Evan: 1:13:04

remember there was the greatest, diaspora Yiddish athlete of all time.

Alison: 1:13:07

Oh, right? Yes. Yes. Who is the goat?

Evan: 1:13:10

I am trying, waiting for a new tab to open for me to look.

Alison: 1:13:16

Yeah. Yeah. huh? God. Yeah, God. Yeah. I do not at all claim to be a particularly good singer, but that song is catchy as heck. I'm regretting not having more cookies

Evan: 1:13:37

Sorry.

Alison: 1:13:38

is a very Canadian story right there thinking about whether or not, I should mention it. And then I had to,

Evan: 1:13:45

you've heard me say, sorry before.

Alison: 1:13:47

yeah. I also think I've given you shit for it before.

Evan: 1:13:51

Yeah. Well, I did go to school north of Canada. Okay. So the God, yeah. Is in the semi-finals as of this morning,

Alison: 1:14:01

Oh, who is in the semifinals?

Evan: 1:14:04

is Kofax verse spits and Torres versus Greenberg. So Torres versus Greenberg, I'm looking up who those seconds. Which is green. Uh, I'm looking up.

Alison: 1:14:21

I didn't think she was Jewish.

Evan: 1:14:23

So Sandy Kofax for smart spits, of course, two very famous, Jews. Kofax beat Sue bird. Who's another very good contender. and March. Yeah. And March Spitz, beat Allie Raisman in the semi-finals also

Alison: 1:14:40

Spitz has been icon. Yeah. Ali Raisman is also.

Evan: 1:14:43

So yeah, Dara Torres.

Alison: 1:14:46

Yeah. I did not know she was Jewish. Dara Torres has real. Oh my God. She kept competing in the Olympics into her forties.

Evan: 1:14:55

Yeah. I completely

Alison: 1:14:56

Like what a power house.

Evan: 1:15:00

we're no. Who am I thinking of?

Alison: 1:15:03

Yamir Jaeger wishes. He was good. As long as Dara Torres has been good.

Evan: 1:15:08

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Swimmer. Sorry.

Alison: 1:15:10

Yes. She's a Swimmer. Sorry. I should have, I don't know if I said that or not. Yeah. Dara Torres. Like, oh man. I think she had her last Olympics when she was 42. Is that right?

Evan: 1:15:23

I am looking her last Olympics, 12 gold man, 12 metals for gold, for silver, for bronze, even distribution, at the Olympics.

Alison: 1:15:34

she afforded I'm pretty

Evan: 1:15:35

she was 33 at the 2000 Olympics. and that is the last one that she won metal in.

Alison: 1:15:43

Yeah, no, she kept competing and she didn't mettle and in her forties.

Evan: 1:15:49

So she, yeah. So 2008 was her last Olympics.

Alison: 1:15:54

Okay. So she was 41 or 42. Yeah. Dara Torres powerhouse. As I said, Jaromir Jaeger wishes. He was as good as Dara Torres as long as she was.

Evan: 1:16:09

So, yeah, apparently she's Jewish.

Alison: 1:16:11

If you, I feel like I need to give this shout out. I can't not give this shout out. if you want to find swimming news, a good place to find swimming news and also the occasional, like story break, like big story break, check out, swim swam,

Evan: 1:16:28

Okay.

Alison: 1:16:29

which is an online swimming newspaper. that like has occasionally had some really good story breaks.

Evan: 1:16:37

Interesting. I've not paid attention to swimming news at all.

Alison: 1:16:40

Yeah. I think that's a common statement.

Evan: 1:16:43

and so Derek Torres though is against tanked Greenberg, who is a famous first basement. Apparently I've heard of him just in that. Didn't know what his position until I looked on Wikipedia,

Alison: 1:16:53

I did not. I had heard of him too, but I didn't know.

Evan: 1:16:56

Hank Benjamin Greenburg, also nicknamed hammer and Hank Hank Hank has blankets or pantless Hank it handcuffs pancreas or the

Alison: 1:17:06

I thought you were going to stay Hank this pancreas.

Evan: 1:17:09

No, was an American lover. It was an American professional baseball player and team executive. So for the final four for the God, ya'll are all very strong contenders.

Alison: 1:17:23

Yes, I God. Yeah, God. Yeah.

Evan: 1:17:30

and two baseball players. is there anything else on Passover we should cover until people hopefully ask us questions for next year?

Alison: 1:17:40

don't forget to eat your figs and dread fruits along with your months. Cause like, We're all Jews here. No, we're not necessarily all Jews here, but anyways, you're

Evan: 1:17:53

We presume the vast majority of our listeners are Jews. I do know that my stationery, uh, orbits co-host host, who is my found a pen and letter writing podcast. Um, co-hosts sometimes listen, listening. He is not.

Alison: 1:18:07

But anyways, if you're listening to this podcast, you are probably aware that Jews are notorious for having digestive issues.

Evan: 1:18:15

yes.

Alison: 1:18:17

So before you eat your Masa, remember what your digestive issues are and how you can prepare because Mazda is a freaking cork.

Evan: 1:18:27

Yes. Also stay hydrated. Like

Alison: 1:18:30

Hey, hydrated, take your accidents, take your dried fruit and good luck. It's pretty much prepare yourself and good luck.

Evan: 1:18:42

Yeah,

Alison: 1:18:42

And with, and with that. She's brewed, he's brewed. And now it is time for you to grow happy, preventing everybody and hide some ass.