Welcome to episode two of She Brews HeBrews a Jewish fermenting podcast, where we hope to discuss all things, home brewing and fermentation, both biblical and modern from a Jewish perspective, including beers, Meads, ciders, wines, breads, pickles, cheeses, and much, much more. Today we're going to be talking about Jewish breads. I'm your host, Evan Harris and with me today is my co-host alison Shay.

Alison: 0:22

Hey there. So what are you drinking today?

Evan: 0:24

so right now I'm, drinking, some anchor steam brewing, a special barrel aged addition that was, from a trip out to some friends in San Francisco in 2019,

Alison: 0:34

Very nice.

Evan: 0:35

the sort of beer you can eat with a fork. It is incredibly malty and I'm happy. What about you?

Alison: 0:43

I am drinking some lemon, Rosemary mead, super tasty, super refreshing, definitely something that I'm going to make again.

Evan: 0:53

That's the one you talked about in previous episodes is not?

Alison: 0:56

Yup. I was setting it up and then it was brewing back then and now I'm drinking it and it is really good. Yeah. When it was fresh out of the bottle, it was like effervescent. It was so good. And now it's just really good,

Evan: 1:08

I need to make some, I also need grow my own Rosemary again

Alison: 1:12

great natural deer repellent.

Evan: 1:14

I did not know that,

Alison: 1:15

Yeah, it was also the only herb that, I was able to grow in Florida when I lived in Florida for a while, I tried to plant an herb garden. I had, let's see Rosemary basil mint time and oregano. And the iguanas ate all of it with the exception of the Rosemary, which they wouldn't touch. So I had this big Rosemary Bush because it grows. Like nobody's business.

Evan: 1:43

I've had good success in Minnesota with Rosemary, thyme and basil. Apparently you can bonsai Rosemary, but that is a tangent, we don't need to get into today Bonzai itself is an interesting thing.

Alison: 1:54

Yes, I am seriously not familiar with it. So find a different expert for that one. We're, not experts in any of

Evan: 2:02

yeah.

Alison: 2:03

but find

Evan: 2:04

we're not.

Alison: 2:04

in bonsai.

Evan: 2:06

Today's subject. I think you were probably a much better expert on it than I am though. Bread making.

Alison: 2:12

Oh yeah. Definitely a topic that I have spent a lot of time on.

Evan: 2:18

Yeah, my most recent loaf was a recipe that you sent me, Samin's Focaccia

Alison: 2:23

Samin Nosrat of salt, fat acid heat.

Evan: 2:26

Salt fat acid heat. I will put that recipe in the show notes. It is a wonderful loaf.

Alison: 2:31

Really, really tasty recipe for focaccia. I would strongly recommend, it doesn't have any herbs or anything in it. So I always dump in a whole bunch of Rosemary and time in there. And it's sometimes some garlic and it's always just a hit.

Evan: 2:46

Oh, it was a hit with the friends. I got to see,

Alison: 2:48

Nice. Yeah, it's it makes what looks like a big loaf, but man, you can really demolish one of those

Evan: 2:55

yeah, in one night, I went to a dinner at a friend's place and we ate the entire loaf

Alison: 2:59

that sounds about right. I wouldn't expect anything less.

Evan: 3:03

Absolutely. But you want to, maybe explain a little bit about how a bread making works?

Alison: 3:07

Sure the things you need for bread are pretty much the same as what you need for fermenting a beverage. You need yeast, you need something for the east to eat, which has sugars or, Carbohydrates, which are just chains of sugars. He needed water, which helps you develop the gluten. And, you generally not sometimes that people go light on this one for very particular recipes, but you need salt, salt inhibits the yeast growth. So you have the things that help these to grow, and then you have the things that hurt the yeast growth. Things that help the yeast grow will be, sugars pretty much, any sort of sugars that you add and things that are going to inhibit your bread are going to be, fats. So anything that's going to weigh the bread down. And there are things that are going to be good for the yeast to be eating, like fruits, if you're adding them, but also because of the weight. And then that's also going to, make it more difficult for you to get a ri So there's a balance there, but generally the idea is the same as, with a fermentation where the yeast that eats your sugars, it farts out the carbon dioxide, in this case, because you have the gluten strands in there, which are these stretchy elastic proteins that develop when, certain types of starches like wheat, barley, when they come into contact with water, can develop these gluten proteins and those gluten proteins will stretch. And as your yeast is farting out, it's carbon dioxide. It's going to expand. So like little, little rubber bands in there. That's pretty much it it's pretty straight forward process. Very Similar

Evan: 4:45

No again, this is something much like we discussed last episode. Bread making has been going on as long as brewing has. And, that's quite a few thousand years, Unlike, say beer, you actually try and separate out the grain, bread. You obviously don't.

Alison: 5:00

Yeah. And like we mentioned, last episode, you can use wild yeast for making breads, sourdough starters. There are ways of doing it without harvesting the yeast at a time. That is how the original breads would have been made. So bringing in the Jewish aspect here and the whole

Evan: 5:21

we have quite a history. Don't we on this?

Alison: 5:24

Oh Yeah, You know, when the Jews were fleeing from Egypt, a whole thing about not giving the bread time to rise, they literally were not giving it time to, gather Euston rise. There was no time to let that whole fermentation process happen. And it is a fermentation process.

Evan: 5:45

Don't know about you, but as a little kid, I was thinking, but it only tastes like an hour, an hour and a half for bread to rise. Doesn't it. Not realizing, oh, no. You had to like treat a sourdough starter, which can take a week or more.

Alison: 5:57

Yeah. They were waiting for wild yeast to gather and they couldn't do that.

Evan: 6:01

Yeah. Clearly I've learned the difference since I was in middle school.

Alison: 6:06

Yeah. there were levels of convenience to our processes now that they just didn't have back then. And it makes it so much easier for us to be doing things. But I guess you could say it also lends uniformity to our foods. Now that didn't exist so much, then, you know, we talk about like San Francisco sourdough, which was a very distinctive, microorganism

Evan: 6:31

Yeah.

Alison: 6:32

that hops on, with the yeast. And that's what gives it such a distinctive tangy flavor to it. And if you're just buying store yeast. I mean, I love my red star east as much as any other baker. But you know, I'm not gonna get as diverse of a flavor range as somebody who's got a wild yeast starter or somebody who's collecting wild yeast just as is.

Evan: 6:56

Yeah. Exactly. And last time, we talked a little, a bit about the different types of yeasts you can use in brewing, in bread making. What I've noticed is that it tends to just be a single type of yeast that will ferment quickly and generate lots of CO2, as opposed to generating other sorts of flavors, which you do sometimes still want in home brewing that you don't necessarily want in bread making, unless you're doing a proper sourdough. So all commercial yeast for bread tends to be closer to champagne, yeast generating very neutral.flavor

Alison: 7:29

Yeah. I read a novel a while back. Sourdough, like the name of the book was sour dough and novel by, Robin Sloan. The book was quirky it was an enjoyable read. But one of the really big things that carries throughout the book is that this woman is gifted a sourdough starter. And like her life starts to revolve around this sourdough starter. She starts a business around it and she cares for the sourdough starter. This sourdough starter that she's given has such a distinctive flavor. Everybody falls in love with it, and it has a distinctive, cracking pattern. Basically when bread expands, you get a vent at the top of bread. And that's why people often slash it in certain ways. Isn't it? Her sourdough, Produces some distinctive Faces on the surface. And that's kind of one of the that's really one of the hallmarks. One of the things that's distinctive about her strain, but she talks a lot about, different sour doughs and how. They're all very different and this one is so special to her. It's very much a feel good story in a lot of ways. And also, at the beginning of the book, she said really exhausted, computer scientist, by the end, just working with this sourdough is really changed her life. But anyways, the point of me mentioning that was that she talks about it, how every sourdough is going to be unique. Every sourdough starter is really unique and what's going to produce a unique flavor. it's gonna vent differently. It's going to produce different gases and, I guess the beauty of having your own starter. It's yours.

Evan: 9:11

Do we want to go in a little to how to make a starter?

Alison: 9:14

Well

Evan: 9:15

have you ever done one.

Alison: 9:17

I did do on, it failed. It did not go well. I did it twice actually, and I think. I think it got contaminated somehow, both times, because it ended up turning pink and orange, so that was not good. And I happen to think it's something about the bacteria in my parents' kitchen, where I was working on it, because, this is something we'll probably talk about another time. But a couple months later I made a lactic starter. Using, I soaked some barley to make a lactic starter and I ended up with some very similar discoloration, the same shades of pink and orange. And I mean, it did work. The lactic starter was fine for a while, but eventually it started picking up those same impurities.

Evan: 10:04

I don't know offhand what those could be. I will do some research because now I'm really curious. If any of our listeners know, please let us know. So I've had a little bit of success, but I'm not that good at making bread either under kneed it or over kneed. I, and I've asked almost always vastly underneath my loves of bread. So they don't hold in the air.

Alison: 10:24

Yeah, I just find it kind of therapeutic to keep needing. So how was go longer than a recipe calls for, and given that I have carpal tunnel, so I'm not particularly strong in the hands, even though a lot of it isn't, it's not really wrist movement. My hand just gets tired after a while. But needing it for longer than recommended, but being weaker about it usually means that I get to approximately the right spot.

Evan: 10:46

That works. But how to make your sourdough starter. You start with approximately the same amount of flour and water. By weight mixed together in a Mason jar or other container that you can put a lid on and keep things out like flies and other bugs. You want air to transfer though? And the first day you don't want to throw out half of it. You just want to add the same amount of flour and water you did the day before and mix it together. Let it sit the day after that you start throwing out half of it and feeding it with the same amount that you threw out. Half mix of flour and water. You just keep doing that and feeding it for at least seven days until you should notice a proper. Bubble and fermentation, it will grow after you feed it. In the show notes, links to Alton brown and foodwishes. Ways to make a sourdough starter so you can have some video as well. There are people who've managed to save and freeze their starters. I do not know how to get into that, but a sourdough started really is that simple. They were very popular last year.

Alison: 11:39

Yeah, the one that my roommate and I have now, if we want to use it, it is In the freezer. Most of the time, his name is cooperative. Basically we take it out. We give it a nice feeding and that's about it Pretty straightforward.

Evan: 11:53

sounds like I can't eat that much bread. So I try to sourdough starter and it's like, yeah, no, it's a little too much for me.

Alison: 11:59

Yeah.

Evan: 12:00

I do not have one, anymore, but on, there are unsurprisingly a lot of Jewish bread products. Yes, my pancreas is incredibly rude.

Alison: 12:08

Recurring

Evan: 12:09

It will be definitely be a recurring topic because it is a large part of my life or a small part of my life based on a volume but it's a

Alison: 12:16

Small part of your life based off of size, large based off of inconvenience.

Evan: 12:21

it's an insulin molecules are even smaller.

Alison: 12:23

Yeah.

Evan: 12:23

Very rude. But there is a long history of Jewish bread products, which most people are at least partially familiar with, including at least for me, basically every week growing up challah

Alison: 12:36

oh, yeah, definitely a big one for us too. I think most, Jewish households you're at least familiar with it. If not eating it

Evan: 12:45

Yeah, most Jewish households, at least on this continent, especially among the ashkenazi families. Because Challah did develop more in ashkenazi culture directly, normally perceived the braided enrich loaf.

Alison: 13:00

Yeah. And there are, there are Sephardi and Mizrahi breads that are delicious and different on Passover, you'll notice it, they use. It is also matza. But it looks very different from an ashkenazi matzo. I'd say it's softer. It's more like, Lofa so it's big flattened floppy. I happen to think it's delicious. I am not a fan of a traditional Ashkenazi matzo. I am a firm believer that one of the difficulties of shmura matzo, which is the, kind of charred stuff, like handmade stuff. Okay. I say this every year, my family is sick of this joke, but which part are you supposed to eat? The box or the stuff inside the box? Because it tastes the same

Evan: 13:46

Yeah. matzo tastes like the box of it came from,

Alison: 13:49

And you know what? It's

Evan: 13:50

no, I, I understand

Alison: 13:52

not going to shit for a week. I'm sorry. It's true.

Evan: 13:56

Passover is a very good holiday to eat low carb.

Alison: 13:59

Oh yeah.

Evan: 13:59

But so unlike a lot of other enriched doughs, like French brioche, challah unsurprisingly due to kashrut is par we don't use butter in it.

Alison: 14:09

Basically the primary difference between a challah and. A brioche or an egg challah and a brioche is that a challah is always dairy free and plenty of people who are not Jewish are going to screw this up. The really notable one is Paul Hollywood, who is notorious for. Just, I mean, I would say at this point, the guy is pretty much antisemitic for how much he ruins his Jewish breads. The man is

Evan: 14:40

respect him for a lot of things. When it comes to anything close to a Jewish item, he manages to mess it up horribly.

Alison: 14:47

Oh yeah. Remember when he said on great British bake-off how platted breads are a dying art. I can point out. 20000 Jewish mothers in Brooklyn who are

Evan: 15:00

my sister makes a very good platted challah. Most people are most people I know who do baking can make a good platted challah because you know, it's

Alison: 15:11

common I would like to think that I make a pretty good platted,

Evan: 15:14

I believe you sent me photos. I would agree.

Alison: 15:16

oh, have I not sent you photos?

Evan: 15:18

Not recently at least, but I believe in the past you have, so I would agree. I'm not that good at it, but I don't make it often. My sister normally made it growing up, so she makes a very good challah. I've made a few, I have two different recipes that I really liked though. Both of which are actually in the resources that will be in today's show notes. One is from the Gefilta manifesto and the other is from the Zingerman's Bakehouse.

Alison: 15:41

I will add my challah recipe, which is a challah. My sister is a vegan so I started making challah When we were both home at the same point, it's delicious. I'm a big fan. I use this recipe pretty much all the time. I personally for my own cholesterol tends not to be good, so I, tend to ease up on the egg yolks. So whether or not that's the right thing to do. I don't know, I've heard conflicting information, but regardless, between that and my sister being a vegan, I typically make a vegan challah, and I will include that in the notes as well, very tasty. On the topic of, braiding your challah, a platted loaf. That's, it's a braided loaf. It's just the British term. But fun tradition to do with challah. This is not a super common one. But one of my favorite challah traditions is the Shabbat after Passover it's got a name. I don't remember what the name is for that Passover. But anyways,

Evan: 16:43

S H L I S S E.

Alison: 16:45

Yeah, that's what you make. That's the type of challah that you make on that Shabbat, Schlissel challah, and you make a Schlissel in Yiddish means key. So either people bake a key into their challah, which, for the sake of not destroying my teeth by accident, I do not do. But the other thing that people do is they make their challah into a shape of a key. Which is what I do. And it's just kind of a fun exercise in braiding, a loaf in an interesting manner. It's sometimes they're pretty, there are some hilarious disasters that you can find online that are, not safe for work. So I would recommend not doing it around any children or in your workplace, but it's a lot of fun. They're creative. They're really cute. Fun thing to do with your challah. So there's shlisse challah.

Evan: 17:33

I only found out about this past Passover thanks to the Jewish cooking subreddit. A few people posted theirs.

Alison: 17:39

I've been making them for like five or six years now. Yeah, I just, I found out about it through a Facebook group called I don't cook, but I give out recipes. The name is a lie. People, both cook and. They give out recipes and also they post pictures of their challah. So I saw it and started making them cause it looked like fun and you know, and it was fun.

Evan: 18:00

That it does. I will have to try and make one next year my tradition. First chametz the last few years has been homemade pizza

Alison: 18:07

Oh, that's nice. I like

Evan: 18:09

and I, I'm not very good at shaping them. They're delicious, but I'm trying to do a proper Neapolitan.

Alison: 18:13

Ooh, that's good My phone might not my challah. My challah are beautiful. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Paul Hollywood. But. My pizzas are always misshapen. Just a quick note, again, this is supposed to be in Jewish themed podcast. Schlissel the, the key shape, is it's supposed to be for parnassa, which is basically livelihood it's, it's just kind of a tradition, as. Passover kind of marks the beginning of the year in the Jewish camp. it is one of the many new years in the Jewish tradition. It's the first month. The idea is that you start the year off, that this should be a key to, Good and prosperous year for you. Another tradition with challah is for Rosh Hashana for the other new year. Yeah. You make a round challah. It's kind of a note on the cyclical notion of the year. So they're just kinda, they're cute. They've got meaning they're not mandatory. by any means, you know, nobody's saying you have to do it this way. It's

Evan: 19:19

of it is

Alison: 19:19

of fun. No, absolutely not. It's just, it's a fun way of marking the year and it's a cute way of expressing yourself through a Jewish tradition.

Evan: 19:30

exactly, these are all, these are all traditions. They're not, halacha, you're not required to make challah. You're not required to make any of the breads we're going to talk about today, but the traditions are Important and they mean a lot to people. They mean a lot to at least both of us

Alison: 19:44

Yeah. And they're tasty. At least

Evan: 19:47

and they're tasty. Yeah.

Alison: 19:48

I'm a big fan of

Evan: 19:49

can help you make one. Hopefully it can make everyone else, make theirs tasty as well. But there are breads beyond challah. So I have a question for you, chocolate or cinnamon?

Alison: 20:00

Babka Chocolate all the Actually I will give you my babka recipe as well. In the show notes, it's the chabad.org Babka recipe. I've been using it for years. I love it. It takes for-ever it takes like four or five hours. I would recommend leaving the dough outside in the summertime to rise because it's a tough one guys, but oh boy, you will not regret making it.

Evan: 20:26

Enjoyed the babka recipes from both of the books I mentioned earlier, as well as physical loafs that have bought from Zingerman's because I love Zingerman's, but, Babka is another traditional Jewish, fermented bread and even though it is also parev tends to be a heavier dough than challah, therefore takes longer to prove

Alison: 20:47

basically how I mentioned before that you add things to the yeast that make it livelier sugars that are going to be helpful for it to grow better. When you add those fats, it's going to weigh the bread down. It's not going to rise as well. So babka is typically made with what's called an enriched dough, which is a dough that has those fats added to it. So it'll have egg, it'll have margarine or

Evan: 21:12

Margarine or, but I think in Israel they do use butter. So that would

Alison: 21:16

I'm sure people use butter. Traditionally babka has made parev but. All of those fats, adding it down, makes it a much richer bread. But it also means that it takes a lot longer for you to get any sort of rise out of it and you have to be patient with it. I live in a relatively humid, and at least this time of year, pretty warm area. So I leave my enrich bread, doughs outside to rise for things like that. Just, just so that I'm not waiting for too long,

Evan: 21:48

Yeah, no. And enrich though, especially a laminated dough, which bobka is where you actually make layers. Can also take a while. So the next, traditional Jewish fermented bread on our list are everyone's favorite breakfast food,

Alison: 22:01

Montreal or New York. Evan answered this correctly.

Evan: 22:04

I prefer New York.

Alison: 22:06

Okay. Thank you.

Evan: 22:07

I do like a Montreal bagel is delicious, but in New York bagels better.

Alison: 22:11

New York bagels just scream home to me. I live in the south now, but I really to identify myself as a new Yorker to a certain degree, I'm not a southerner.

Evan: 22:20

No, I don't. I lived in the south for 14 years and I don't identify as a southerner.

Alison: 22:26

Yeah.

Evan: 22:27

If anyone would like to come on and challenge Alison for representing Montreal and or Jerusalem bagels. We'd love to have that as an episoide,

Alison: 22:35

Oh, yeah, always, but I can't really. I'm not experienced in the making of Montreal or Jerusalem bagels, but I can tell you that if you're trying to make yourself in New York bagel, yes, your water is important. But another thing that people often miss we'll try. Well, I'm trying to make bagels outside in New York. Bagels are supposed to be boiled in barley m That's the sugar that's supposed to be added to help the yeast rise it's supposed to be done when the barley malt and boiling them before you bake them or what give New York bagels that really distinct chewy outside. And they're. Yeasty flavor. Yes. I mean, there's flavor from these, but they have that very distinctive barley malt flavor to them that you'll immediately be aware of. If you've eaten that New York bagel,

Evan: 23:25

I think Montreal uses both barley and honey or barley and sugar to get that water even sweet. But their fermentation has done a pretty cold temperature to develop some more of those yeasty flavors. And unlike store-bought bagels goals must be boiled. I repeat bagels must be boiled. No steaming boiling.

Alison: 23:50

bread. There are a steamed breads. There are lots of steamed breads. There are a griddled

Evan: 23:56

There are lots of steam breads.

Alison: 23:58

But bagels are not them. Bagels are put in a pot of boiling water and then you flip them over. Keep boiling them. They only boil for, I usually do 60 seconds on each side, sometimes a little less, but that's all they, they are boiled. They are boiled breads. I know it sounds weird. Trust us on this.

Evan: 24:19

Try it, you want that nice crispy layer on the outside. You want boiling, Serious eats is a great article on the science that I will link in the show notes. But bagels are very Jewish bread though. They're now very common.

Alison: 24:32

Yeah. And they're delicious.

Evan: 24:34

They are absolutely delicious. I don't need the very often, but that is something where Paul Hollywood has not been very good. great British bake-off or great British baking show. It is as it's known in America. But just Pillsbury owns the copyright on the term. Bake-off

Alison: 24:48

Hey,

Evan: 24:49

um, Yeah.

Alison: 24:50

Do you think we should include the abomination that is Paul Hollywood's or chola recipe, as he says it, Joke. Should we include that in

Evan: 25:01

Uh, yes, let's include that. so we will include in the show notes someplace to avoid his challah recipe. And if I can find his bagel recipe, they've done bagels at least twice on great British bake-off

Alison: 25:15

And they did them

Evan: 25:16

time, the first time was better than the second. Both were bad though.

Alison: 25:20

Their babka recipe was so bad. Oh my God. I was sitting there cringing.

Evan: 25:27

It was bad. In the first season that was available on American Netflix, I forget what series number it is referred to. Now. I think five, one of the contestants whose names I'm forgetting, made a babka, and she had spent some time in Israel. Her babka, as the signature challenge was.

Alison: 25:44

Yes, And it sounded delicious. She made like a pistachio one. I would have eaten that, you know, she put some effort into it and really seemed to go in there

Evan: 25:55

but Paul Hollywood has a lot of great recipes and a lot of good knowledge do not trust them on anything remotely Jewish.

Alison: 26:02

No, it's an abomination. It is truly an insult.

Evan: 26:05

But so the bagels, the little bit of history on the bagel, although the bagel was effectively brought to America through Polish immigrants, though, at the time, it was still pretty much czarist Russia, and it does come from the old high germanic via Yiddish for ring. And of course there's the Jerusalem bagel, which are not boiled normally.

Alison: 26:26

I think there are allowed in Jerusalem bagels, I would say, or distinct from a classic bagel. You know, they're not true bagels. So I think they should be accepted as their own entity in the same way that a Jerusalem artichoke is unrelated to an actual artichoke.

Evan: 26:43

Absolutely. a little bit of the history on this, Jerusalem bagels, and I'd love to hear from an actual food anthropologist on this, but I think modern bagels come through Jewish immigrants to Poland, from what the predecessor to Jerusalem bagels through, you know, 2000 years of history and exile. The Jerusalem bagels are actually effectively a takeover, the old Imperial Roman army ration, the Bucellatum, which, also have a similar, relative in Arabic culture, which is more like a bagel crisp. But also, so in Britain and Northern Europe, hardly TAC, effectively evolved from the same item.

Alison: 27:23

Which is kind of a cool, cool path.

Evan: 27:25

Absolutely. And, in the early 11th century, and this is cited on Wikipedia, rabbi, hi, hi, got on, described ka'ak, which is the. Sort of middle step between Jerusalem bagels bagels and the old Imperial Roman rations, as the hardest as being the hardest biscuit, usually eaten as a dessert may dry with or without spices. So crackers.

Alison: 27:48

Basically old crackers. bagel, chips,

Evan: 27:51

Yeah. Basically.

Alison: 27:52

full circle, and we've gotten to bagel chips,

Evan: 27:55

We've come full circle and got into bagel chips.

Alison: 27:57

which I do happen to

Evan: 27:58

Another Bagel question? Do you toast your bagels or no?

Alison: 28:02

Depends on whether it's fresh, if it's fresh, then no, if it's more than a couple hours old, then yes. I would say actually, if it's not warm anymore than yes, but also I guess I've spoiled myself because most of the time when I'm eating a bagel, it's fresh out the oven, which is the

Evan: 28:19

no, I've most of the bagels I've eaten for the last three or so years are ones I have made or fresh from two places who I very much trust. One of which is Zingerman, the other, which is Nate and Al's delicatessen and, LA.

Alison: 28:35

We are not sponsored by Zingermans.

Evan: 28:37

We are not, I am just unapologetically a fan. I love them.

Alison: 28:42

That's valid.

Evan: 28:42

yeah,

Alison: 28:43

I mean, I mentioned this a couple of times in this episode already, but again, I am a new Yorker. Evan is a devote of, Zingerman's, in New York city. We have second avenue deli, which I actually haven't been to in quite a while. But just another place that's really known for their classic Jewish foods. The matzah ball soup. I have their cookbook, they do have some challah recipes and stuff. But if you're looking for another really classic Jewish deli to check out, that's not an Ann Arbor, Michigan, and you're a little more likely to pass. I would recommend

Evan: 29:19

I understand that granted Zingerman's was the first deli I had within the same city as me. Because prior to that, the nearest Jewish deli was a three to four hour drive away.

Alison: 29:28

Yeah, well, there's no Jewish deli in the city that I live now. So

Evan: 29:32

There is one here I haven't been, but now I am, actually can make a lot of the items.

Alison: 29:38

Yeah. Well, I very rarely eat meat. So I guess I'm not really searching for any, hot pastrami. Another thing that I would highly recommend that second avenue deli. Hot kosher pastrami mustard. Oh man,

Evan: 29:52

well that sounds good.

Alison: 29:53

man, it would kill my stomach, but it's

Evan: 29:56

oh.

Alison: 29:56

That's it? We're good. at tangents here.

Evan: 29:59

Yeah, we're very good at

Alison: 30:00

at tangents. We just have a lot of them.

Evan: 30:03

well,

Alison: 30:03

I cannot guarantee the quality.

Evan: 30:06

we have multiple, things. We enjoy both in food and otherwise, so we like to discuss all of them.

Alison: 30:14

Oh, yeah.

Evan: 30:15

But so another thing that a lot of things feel that are similar to bagels are bialys

Alison: 30:20

Yeah. What's your opinion on bialys

Evan: 30:23

liked them. So any.

Alison: 30:24

I think they're fine. I have no, I I've had them and you know what? I think it's totally acceptable bread product, but it's not one that I have such a strong opinion on.

Evan: 30:34

I thoroughly enjoy them. I don't feel like there's something I must absolutely have, but if there's a good one available, I'm, I'm happy for anyone who doesn't know it's made with the same dough of bagel. Pretty much, it's not boiled it. Doesn't have a hole and instead you just put a dimple in it and fill it with traditionally an onion poppy seed mix.

Alison: 30:53

Yeah. they're fine. They're Again, it's a totally acceptable bread. You know, they're kind of dinner rolly was something in there. I mean like the quality of the bread is similar to a dinner roll, I would say. They're fine. I mean, they're traditional, I'm not overly attached to them. And anyway, but tasty enough, I'd have one.

Evan: 31:12

without a Jewish deli. When I was first had access to thm, it's like, oh, I really want to have these again because they are very good. So they stopped being a treat, but a good bagel is just as good if not.

Alison: 31:24

Yeah, I would prefer a bagel, but I wouldn't turn down a bialy

Evan: 31:28

Yeah, but I mean, you don't eat fish, but you could put like smoked salmon and cream cheese and everything else on a bagel. You don't do that on a bialy.

Alison: 31:35

Yeah. I also, will still eat my bagel with cream cheese and pile. I haven't eaten fish in a very long time since I was a small child. I know I'm sure somebody's gonna watch this and say you're basically still a small child for context. I haven't eaten, Fish in, it is more than half of my life. I stopped eating fish when I was seven. So, bagel is still excellent with all the fixings. Even if you don't have fish on there, pile and high with, with egg and cream, cheese and red onion and avocado. Avocado is good on there. Tomato, just all that stuff on a bagel, you really just can't beat it. You know, I've had some great sandwiches,

Evan: 32:18

Well, absolutely.

Alison: 32:19

just a classic thing.

Evan: 32:23

I would fully agree. So another interesting bread with at least some Jewish connection, especially to Israeli cuisine, that we've got on the list today. We've got a few more, is, pita Which is not specifically Jewish, obviously. But it's very common in Israeli cuisine and Greek cuisine and all over the Eastern Mediterranean. Thanks to it. Basically being how bread was produced in ancient Mesopotamia in Babylon.

Alison: 32:49

Yeah, which is pretty cool. You know, just hearing, it's, it seems like such a basic food and it is such a basic food and that's what gives it such a long and rich history. I think that's really special.

Evan: 33:02

Absolutely. I'm not very good at making it, but, hopefully we can talk about pita in more depth than other time. It is a long history and I wish I had one with shawarma right now.

Alison: 33:11

I, Yeah. Falafel or, Ooh, I should make, what's it called? Oh my God.SabichAnother fun, fun thing to stuff up for my fellow vegetarians. Another thing to stuff of pita with is, an Israeli dish called sabich, Which is. Fried egg, and eggplant, super, super tasty. You stuff it with all the same fixings, as you would a falafel or a shwarma. And then on top of it, you put this tart mango sauce called AAMBAA. Um, you can also, I

Evan: 33:43

mango sauce.

Alison: 33:45

it. Yes, it's called AAMBAA. It's not for everybody. Not everybody likes it. It's very distinctive. It's also, one of those dishes that is truly, truly Israeli. Like nobody else claims the thing. But very tasty, unique would recommend.

Evan: 34:02

Yeah, I'm not familiar with that. I'm going to have to look into that some more.

Alison: 34:06

Yeah.

Evan: 34:07

but going into another bread in doing some of the research for this, had you ever heard of, Muna or Mona?

Alison: 34:13

No, when you first put that in, in our notes for preparing for the podcast at first, I thought you were talking about move flatter, which is the traditional dish served at a Muna. And I thought I found it. It had just kind of, the word had gotten mixed up there somewhere. But no, what I was thinking of move Latta is a kind of pain, Taiki bread. That's paint, you paint it with honey and it's made very quickly after Passover. I believe that's Moroccan Jewish tradition.

Evan: 34:46

Believe it's effectively a crepe. Is it.

Alison: 34:49

It's a little more bready than that. I would say it's kind of in the same family as like a Lofa I would say, where it's kind of pancakey, it's kind of bready, and call it a bread and then you paint it with honey and it's very tasty, and it's made very quickly,

Evan: 35:06

Interesting.

Alison: 35:07

And that's when I thought you were talking about when you said Muna, I've never heard of it. And now that you've mentioned it, obviously me being me, I want to try and make it,

Evan: 35:15

Yeah. So this, I hadn't heard of it until I was doing some research for this episode. But it's an Algerian. Sweetbread of Sephardi origin that they say similar to challah, and so for anyone who would like to look it up, it is M O U N a. And it's used for Shabbat found mostly in France.

Alison: 35:35

the Wikipedia page, which I'm looking at now says that it's also, related to Mamuna,

Evan: 35:43

Yeah. It seems that based on the ingredients, it's sort of a spice challah, but it does not, at least the images I've seen appear to be braided. And it is a food that, I was completely unaware of before, and also use for break fast, but challah also gets served at break fast and both of us areashkenaziso the food we're not eminently familiar with, but always looking to learn more.

Alison: 36:05

Yeah. And again, if you're familiar or more familiar than us, which is pretty easy, with Sephardi or Mizrahi Food traditions. We would love to have you on to chat with you. Just pick your brain about it. Cause we're amateurs. We are foodies and we are always excited to learn more about other people's food and traditions.

Evan: 36:28

No, I absolutely would love to have, somebody on from, especially Mizrahi, Sephardi or beta Israel or any of the other, Jewish communities from around the world.

Alison: 36:38

Yeah, love

Evan: 36:39

wants to challenge Alison on bagels,

Alison: 36:41

I'm happy to get into this argument with somebody and I'm recognized. Again, I'm biased because I grew up in New York and that there's this, there's not a certain level. There's a lot of nostalgia associated

Evan: 36:54

Oh, yes.

Alison: 36:55

And that's fine, one of the things that's so big about food is, food triggers. So many memories for us. Food is such a cornerstone to our memories and our nostalgia and. Where we come from. So I don't, I'm fine with you disagreeing with me on anything. And I think that's really important that we remember that we all have our food opinions and our food opinions are part of what makes us us.

Evan: 37:26

Yeah.

Alison: 37:26

It's fine. If you disagree with me and I'm thrilled that other people have a different experience than I am, and I'm thrilled that other people have a different experience than I do. And that that's something that we can discuss and share with each other.

Evan: 37:42

Absolutely. I use the word debate and challenge more of, oh, we'd love to have people on to discuss these things. Not in a malicious. There will only be one winner, with a wrestling bell in the background.

Alison: 37:54

There is never only one winner when it comes to eating tasty food. Well, I guess, unless you eat all there is never only one winner when it comes to sharing our food with each other.

Evan: 38:07

Exactly.

Alison: 38:08

Quick honorable mention here. I feel like we can't really have an episode talking about in Jewish breads without mentioning rye bread. And I feel like rye bread is something that really, we should do a whole episode or at least one episode on traditional Jewish deli food. Yes, there's bagels. But when I talk about deli food, I mean, you know, do classic kosher pickles, Pastrami pastramis.

Evan: 38:33

Pastrami is corn, corn, beef, but pastrami is better.

Alison: 38:37

But corn beef is really pickled pickle too, but corn,

Evan: 38:41

Well, pastrami pastrami is effectively corn beef with that spice when done properly.

Alison: 38:46

Yeah.

Evan: 38:47

Some of the other traditional foods, Kisha, I always associate with delis.

Alison: 38:51

I love kishka. I really do love a kishka

Evan: 38:53

that was my dinner tonight.

Alison: 38:55

A-plus Have a good Kish guy, but anyways, the point is that we can't really have a Jewish bread episode without mentioning rye bread because rye bread is really. I would say a classic Ashkenazi Jewish food, especially a classic American Ashkenazi Jewish food. But I feel like in terms of where it falls in of what we eat, we don't eat it on its own. It's part of the Jewish deli experience and kind of should get lumped in with that. So it

Evan: 39:28

the future, we will do a deli, episode because we have to, and we'd love to hear what are some of your deli favorites?

Alison: 39:35

Yes. Anything in particular you'd like us to discuss what else now?

Evan: 39:40

And we've mentioned just a, another quick mention for the unfermented bread and Judaism. There's only really one and that is Motsa. matzo.

Alison: 39:50

name. Isn't that a story that just came, sorry. One of those songs from a music time at my Jewish day school from many, many years ago, just popped into my head there.

Evan: 40:02

perfectly fine. I don't think we'll get copyright problems.

Alison: 40:05

No, nobody's copy writing that parody version of the song.

Evan: 40:09

Exactly. We will. I'm sure. Also talk to you about future episodes. Talk about matzo with Passover and some of the other rules around Passover, quickly before we go, I wanted to go again through some of the resources that are in the show notes today, with the Gefilta manifesto, which is a great cookbook, not just breads and fermented products, but you also have all sorts of traditional old world Jewish cuisines, accessible in a modern American kitchen. It's where I got my chop liver recipe. The Zingerman's Bakehouse cookbook, which for me, it brings back a lot of memories. I think both Alison and I are big fans of Claire Savitz formerly of BA. She has a great book that I've read through, and a YouTube channel as well with all sorts of desserts included. I believe she also has done a challah and some bagels. Her book is called dessert person, and her YouTube channel. Alison of course mentioned the second avenue deli cookbook on breads and Jewish cooking in general. You've got both the Jewish cooking subreddits and r/breadit

Alison: 41:11

We'll also include the babka recipe in the challah recipe that I use the babka recipes from chabbad.org. There's I know there's all sorts of other stuff on chabbad.org, but they do have a whole bunch of really classic Jewish recipes I've been using there Babka one for years. And I would highly recommend it.

Evan: 41:28

Chabbad in general is a great resource for a lot of things about Judaism, whether you're a part of chabbad or not.

Alison: 41:34

Yes.

Evan: 41:34

Anything else you want to say today before we go?

Alison: 41:36

That's about it for me, I'd be eating happy, drinking and happy Fermenting.

SheBrews, HeBrews: A Jewish Fermentation Podcast

Episode 2: Jewish Breads

Listen to this podcast on