Episode 11: Spiritus Spirits and Distilled Drinks

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Transcript

Evan: 0:00

Welcome to episode 11 of She Brews hebrews a Jewish fermenting podcasts, where we hope to discuss all things home brewing fermenting. So today we're talking about some local brewing events and distillation, I'm your host, Evan Harris. And with me today is my co-host Alison Shay.

Alison: 0:13

Hey there. How you doing?

Evan: 0:15

Doing pretty well yourself

Alison: 0:17

I'm good. Excited to get started with the first in what will hopefully be a series on distillation? Are you drinking anything distilled today?

Evan: 0:26

that I am, I have, tonight some, whiskey from a small distillery that did a barrel pick with the Jews and booze Facebook group. And it's called'The Rye' dark pumpernickel rye,

Alison: 0:39

Huh? Sounds interesting. How.

Evan: 0:43

and it's delicious. We're hoping, we'll touch more on barrel picks in another episode. What about.

Alison: 0:49

I am not drinking anything. Distilled, just a standard fermentation. It's just a glass of Moscato

Evan: 0:56

Oh, very nice. Absolutely.

Alison: 0:58

not distilled.

Evan: 1:00

Well you have to ferment it first to distill it, which we'll get to in a minute. But before, before we get to

Alison: 1:04

need to put a disclaimer in here.

Evan: 1:07

well, yes, we need to put a disclaimer before we're telling you about anything else. Home distillation in the United States of America and most other countries is illegal in the United States. It is illegal at a federal level. It is federal civil law. You are unable to distill. This is enforced by the TTB formerly the ATF. If you're interested in starting a distillery, talked with your local, micro distilleries, as well as any local distillers, guilds or unions, they can help you learn the ropes of the laws in your jurisdiction.

Alison: 1:38

Yeah,

Evan: 1:40

are very specific on taxation and licensing. We are hope one of the episodes we're hoping to do is a episode with a managing director or a founder of a microdistillery. And I'm waiting to hear back and hopefully we may have news by the end of the episode.

Alison: 1:55

fingers crossed.

Evan: 1:57

Exactly. So do not distill at home. It is, as I said, illegal at the federal level, your state may also have laws making it illegal. Should it ever become legal at the federal level?

Alison: 2:09

On that note. Also, if you are doing anything illegal, do not tell us

Evan: 2:15

The head

Alison: 2:16

not asking. And we do not want to know

Evan: 2:18

correct, but it's at do not do something illegal. However,

Alison: 2:22

also don't do anything illegal, but if you aren't doing anything illegal, don't tell us.

Evan: 2:27

I think having this knowledge though is great for helping you make drinks as well, just in general being well-educated and well-rounded is useful. And I think being, knowing the other side of fermentation, what the distillation, the other side of major alcohol production is useful and even your home brewing. So you'd know where notes and as a still drink that you'd like may come from, you can then backtrack it. You're not gonna get the same thing cause you're not distilling, but you may be able to add those notes by knowing where in the process they are added, for distilled beverage, you can add them to your own home brewers.

Alison: 3:01

I think this comes back to something we've brought up a few times on the show in the past. For example, I would like to, try and brew kind of a, want to be Slivovitz Slivovitz being, that, plum based Brandy that you see on the old, old man and a kiddish or at your shoulder drinking or something to that effect. But it's something. That I'm never actually, or highly unlikely to ever be able to actually do, given that it's a distilled beverage, but my understanding is that it's got a really unique flavor and it's really beloved. So I'd love to try and replicate that at a lower ABV. And part of doing that as knowing, like Evan said, where in the process, certain flavors come in so that you can try and replicate that, using a different process, but also at the end of the day, and also something we've brought up previously, what we're doing is basically, home food science, and even if you can't actually do it, understanding the science behind it is really interesting to me at least. We're we're nerds here. I don't know if everybody is thrilled by this, but I think it's really cool. Talking about how. You managed to contain a, substance than evaporates very easily in order to increase the concentration of it.

Evan: 4:29

absolutely. But before we get to the main topic of distillation, we've got, we've had the sport, the clarifier rotation, spoiler, how are your brews going?

Alison: 4:38

Oh, well, last time I think I mentioned, I think I mentioned this last time. I do not remember. Anyways, I put into my carboy, some nine pounds of maple syrup, and a whole bunch of cranberries and cardamom pods in an attempt to, make a, maple wine. I'm trying to, find ways of using a vegan sugary fluid. Sounds really weird to say here, but

Evan: 5:13

sugar sources.

Alison: 5:14

Yeah. different vegan sugar sources in order to generate something that will approximate a vegan Mead. So the first batch, that, cranberry and cardamom I've tasted it, out of the carboy just yesterday and it is strong. So I might be stopping that, And at the same time, trying to think about, what can be done to kind of mellow it out a little bit. I'm

Evan: 5:44

Yeah.

Alison: 5:44

gonna do something called the back, sweetening it, where once you've killed off all the yeast you add in additional sugar in order to sweeten it. And what I really want to do is try and get some of the maple flavor back in there. one thing I was warned about is that, maple syrup, the sugar really is the dominant flavor. And you can't tell, what the flavor is underneath all that sugar. And what I was warned about was that the underlying flavor for maple is actually kind of a bitter Sapp. And I have discovered that that is true. Uh, it's not super concentrated because, I did add, Three gallons of water in there to go along with the nine pounds of maple syrup. But there's definitely a bitterness under there. And I left the cardamom MoMA and cranberry in there for quite a while, by which I mean, I put them in there at the beginning and just kind of left them on there. Um, so the cardamom flavor is pretty pronounced and that, along with the strength of that, like residual maple flavor, really need some, some tempering. So some of it'll probably just age as is, and some of it I'm going to try and back Sweden.

Evan: 6:57

no, exactly. I've not done much bad sweetening, but I had the bitterness issue with before the, before we started the podcast. If you remember, I did the mango wine.

Alison: 7:05

Oh yeah.

Evan: 7:05

was very bitter and did not taste, but it would be a great thing to add on something that didn't finish, finished its athlete, but bad Sweden is probably the best way for you to go. It'd be also interesting to see if you like barrel aged it or something.

Alison: 7:19

Yeah. I mean, I probably just bought away a whole bunch of it cause I don't have any barrels. But the flavor is, I mean the flavor comes directly out from maple tree, so I don't know how much barrel aging wouldn't do for it. But also something to note, this is a Jewish podcast. Something that may have come up in the past, a really common sweetening additive, that's used is, lactose. So if you are. lactose-intolerant or like me lactose sensitive. We are dues here. It's highly likely that you will be, or alternatively, you're trying to keep your bruise PARP or non-dairy, I would, keep an eye on what you're using to Sweden, or if you need to stop something, So, that you don't need to back Sweden or back sweeten with something that's, fermentable, in general, just keep an eye on your sweeteners. That aren't just standard things because some of them are dairy

Evan: 8:21

So, two of the more popular ones growing right now is lactose alternatives, though. If you had lactose, that's a gift things like milk stouts, are xylitol and erythritol.

Alison: 8:33

Yeah. But not everybody loves

Evan: 8:35

No, no, not everyone loves them, but they are fairly popular within the brewing community.

Alison: 8:39

Yeah. So, okay. Nose, just keep an eye on what you're putting in.

Evan: 8:43

Yeah. So my, sizers just bubbling along still slowly. I haven't taken a gravity reading in a while and I just arranged to get the amount of cider I need to make my Belgian cider. So I'll do that later this week. But yesterday, as of recording, I went to a event. I talked about in the last podcast. So we started brewing a Belgian double.

Alison: 9:05

Very

Evan: 9:06

fun, both to see a bunch of the Jews who I've met locally, which has always fun as well as, I was one of the more knowledgeable people there. So I was able to talk about why you were actually doing some of the steps, which was pretty fun. we'll probably at some point to an in-depth kind of brew lawn, not necessarily Brule lawn, but step-by-step episode for beer. At some point, not Passover, obviously,

Alison: 9:27

No, I will, at some point get myself like a one gallon carboys so that I can make, what's it called? Uh,

Evan: 9:36

I've had it

Alison: 9:36

Yes, I would like to do that. I would also like to try brewing with, my roommates sourdough starter. So,

Evan: 9:44

That would be very interesting.

Alison: 9:46

Yeah. that would be super interesting. Uh, my experiments at this point are all gluten free, but, um, I would be super pumped to try and brew along with you, even though I'd make my roommate drink, whatever it is.

Evan: 10:00

yeah. No, well, we'll figure that out. If people want to hear specifics about or have specific style, let us know

Alison: 10:07

Yeah.

Evan: 10:08

as always we're very open to feedback.

Alison: 10:12

And I guess if, if we're doing that, whenever we do that, proper brew along, we will give ingredients in the preceding episode before we actually do it.

Evan: 10:23

Absolutely. So do you, now we can get back to the main topic.

Alison: 10:27

Well,

Evan: 10:28

Well, I think the other thing, that's a tangent, the stadia and it's relevant to the,

Alison: 10:32

Oh yeah.

Evan: 10:33

podcast. But so do you know, what distillation actually is.

Alison: 10:37

Um, my understanding of distillation is that it's where you, you like evaporate out the parts or like the excess liquid in there so that you increase the concentration of, of whatever it is that you want to keep.

Evan: 10:56

Yeah. So there are effectively two ways to distill, when you're talking about heat, it goes to the freeze distillation, which is not as sensitive, but we're in most part because we're talking about alcohol distillation, we're talking heat distillation. So, yes. And so it is effectively the act of separating a liquid or gas into its constituent parts. And so today, of course, we're talking about the distillation of liquids. You can also talk about gases, but you do it via a gas. Alcohol is one of the most commonly distilled things. as far as commercial products, oil is also technically distilled.

Alison: 11:28

I guess then a nice vinegar would be considered distilled, right?

Evan: 11:32

not, not necessarily a nice vinegar, but distilled vinegar is its own product. So distilled vinegar, you are increasing the concentration of the seed again. And removing the other flavor components. So it creating a relatively pure drink in the United States. We were told the product of distillation of liquor in the United Kingdom and many Commonwealth countries. It's more common to call it a spirit. And I will probably use spirit more than liquor, but you has liquor and liquer are two things that can become a little confusing.

Alison: 12:02

you also hear spirit used, for like more administrative things or if you live in like, like me, North Carolina, all of our liquor stores are called ABC spirits. I feel like it's used more often when it's, kind of administratively

Evan: 12:21

Yeah. So the, it is, but. The TTB uses both in their tax laws, as well as the various safety regulations. so it depends, and again, languages are not dead set. It's just, what's more common in one place than the other.

Alison: 12:39

I remember that episode of the west wing, where they talk about how, we should simplify the language in, in government documents to make them more easily readable by lay people.

Evan: 12:50

Yes.

Alison: 12:51

I'm reminded of that sometimes.

Evan: 12:53

Oh, I've definitely reminded that of, with that today with all the documentation I was reading.

Alison: 12:58

Oh yeah. Oh, quick pause. Evan started a new job today. So big congratulations to him. I, don't know if you want to leave that in there, but I want to congratulate you again.

Evan: 13:09

will, but thank you. Oh, the other thing I forgot in the previous update and this probably will get caught. I got a wine thief so I can open up my barrel, but just my barrel has fortified me that I said I would open one. I got a job. I now have a wine thief. I can open up my barrel

Alison: 13:25

Very nice.

Evan: 13:26

But so with distillation, of course there's a history because there's a history to everything. And I am, I minored in history. I'm a big history nerd.

Alison: 13:36

I mean, I minored in theater,

Evan: 13:38

no, I didn't know

Alison: 13:39

mean I'm not a history nerd.

Evan: 13:41

No, it's Atlanta. I didn't know you minored in theater.

Alison: 13:43

I did.

Evan: 13:44

Oh, fun.

Alison: 13:45

Yeah.

Evan: 13:46

But back to the topic before we get further off topic and get some really long tangents to add, but so the evidence of distillation actually exists a lot further back than I thought it did. To me, it's something that originated in the late middle ages. A Renaissance, is when I think it started, but in researching for this episode,

Alison: 14:06

I kind of figured it was the kind of things the Romans or the Greeks would have come up with.

Evan: 14:10

So I knew that there was some stuff that did it further back, but big distillation, in fact, especially for alcoholic production date. Kind of to that, to that late middle ages, early Renaissance period. That's when some of the most notable spirits you still see in existence start happening, including what are there now brands like chartreuse. but evidence of distillation itself exists all the way back, to about 1200 BC, E in Mesopotamia, like most civilization at the time. And it was for perfume, which is another place where distillations use them frequently, distillation in alcohol for perfume,

Alison: 14:48

that is fascinating. Perfumer is like a really old, I mean, I knew perfume, was a really old business,

Evan: 14:56

how it's very old. It's almost as old as a selling dodgy copper. For anyone who doesn't know some of the oldest written documents that we can translate our clay tablets of some, was Ea-Nasir the copper merchant receiving hate mail for having sold at dodgy copper.

Alison: 15:19

the weirdest part is that he kept his hate mail and we still have it.

Evan: 15:25

kept the hate mail he got. And so at the tablets are still around. They're in to Neha four, but it still exists. But of perfume is nearly that old. but so by about 200 CE, so this is,

Alison: 15:49

We

Evan: 15:49

that's a meme online, but that's fun.

Alison: 15:53

very serious adults.

Evan: 15:56

We have jobs. by about the year 200 CE. And so of course it's the Greco-Roman times, distillation was known for water though. Of course it's after what made water safe, they didn't know, but so wine was still more common, but distilled water was a thing by that time period. There's evidence that in China, distillation was, developing around this same time period as well. The two hundreds of the time and era, as we discussed a little in the last episode where I had a misconception, there was give albeit later, also the beginnings of distillation and pre-Columbian America, as well as there was robust,

Alison: 16:38

definitive

Evan: 16:39

no, there there's some evidence

Alison: 16:41

There's evidence

Evan: 16:42

there's evidence of it. And a lot of this is the archeological record. We don't know. We definitely know by the late middle ages, distillation was happening for alcohol, and in what is now Indonesia. There was distillation or before European contact as well, using a relatively simple step, what the Europeans would consider simple, still a developing a product that is now called Bactavia Arrak, which is actually the spirit that is in a most old punch recipes.

Alison: 17:10

Wait, is that the same? arrak that I want to use for the old man spirits

Evan: 17:14

It is not, It is one that we will discuss in our cocktails episode and our infusions, because it goes back to the oldest cocktail. The punch.

Alison: 17:23

oh, oh, that was, I guess a little

Evan: 17:27

Yeah.

Alison: 17:29

preview. At some point we are going to do an episode on, uh, on

Evan: 17:34

sphere.

Alison: 17:35

ultimate and liquors.

Evan: 17:37

Yeah. So we, that, that's part of the plan for this series. This series is probably going to take us most of this winter when fermentation slows down before.

Alison: 17:45

Yup.

Evan: 17:46

If anyone would like to hear anything about it, we are more than happy to talk

Alison: 17:51

or if you have suggestions for, old man liquors,

Evan: 17:54

Absolutely.

Alison: 17:55

let us know, because right now I've got Slivovitz in our, I got blessed.

Evan: 17:59

live of it's in Iraq are two of the big ones. But so another thing I'm kind of in the history of distillation, going back with, something that relates to another one of both of our hobbies baking.

Alison: 18:14

Whew.

Evan: 18:15

So some say, and this is a, this is a person that we know existed though. Her exact, Hertz that contributions are not exactly known, was the, some claim. Also the inventor of alchemy, a woman by the name of Maria, the Jew. Who lived in the, between the first and third century CE. So this is a time when distillation of water would have been known to the Greek and Roman, she lived in Roman Egypt. And specifically if I recall Alexandria some say that she, invented distillation as well. She may in fact have been the person who developed distillation of water

Alison: 18:51

she's got a pretty cool list of things attributed. to her.

Evan: 18:54

So one of the ones that I'm having to do with baking, do you want to say it? Are you reading it? The band Murray, the ALC, the ALC Tanium Belinda Murray, the alchemists bath of, of Marie has been, has become the bay Marie Mary's bath.

Alison: 19:11

What a memory is, is basically where you bake something in a tub of water. So you do this for custards where you'll, you'll put a tray with a small amount of water in there, and then you place your ramekins or whatever it is inside the memory. And put it into the oven like that. Because the water can't get above boiling temperature. I mean, at that point it's steam. So it comes up to boiling temperature and because your ramekin is surrounded by that temperature, it cooks much more easily.

Evan: 19:46

Yeah, absolutely. Custards cheese, take those cheesecakes sort of custard, use this all the time. And one of the interesting things is a lot of basic stills, especially for safety, use a water bath where they heat up. They place the still itself in what, in a bath of water and heat the water. But because you're trying to, alcohol has a lower boiling point than water. So you tap, you boil, you bring up your liquid to a higher temperature and you take off and you collect the gas pool that back down, and that as a higher concentration alcohol, the most basic type of still effectively is what's known as a pot still because it's a pot, the pour, everything into that has a big funnel, basically on the top with a cooler on it,

Alison: 20:31

just a cool setup.

Evan: 20:32

which is a cool setup, incredibly basic, and do something that people can do with very little technology. Again, still illegal.

Alison: 20:40

You know, like in a bathtub.

Evan: 20:43

Yeah. Well, you need that. You need a heat source. So bathroom might not be the best place.

Alison: 20:48

Well, yeah, but you know, Bathtub gin

Evan: 20:51

Bathtub gin is an infusion. So that, that we can talk about, we'll talk about Lee and another time. But so that is the most basic type of still. And has it been existence for hundreds? If not thousands of years,

Alison: 21:04

well, actually hold up, if you think about it in those ancient bathtubs where they like actually had a fire going

Evan: 21:12

So, yes, you could do it in

Alison: 21:13

then you could do it actually in a bathtub.

Evan: 21:16

that, you could, but Jen did not develop until the 16 hundreds.

Alison: 21:19

We're also, I don't know where you'd find one of those bathtubs these days.

Evan: 21:24

You can find an iron tub still.

Alison: 21:27

Yeah. But do you really, if you're buying an iron tub, I don't know if you're making Jenna.

Evan: 21:34

I wouldn't, but you could theoretically

Alison: 21:36

I was thinking more about like the real, like Cleopatra's bath, like the ones that like literally had people like shoveling flames underneath it.

Evan: 21:46

well true. But the, the engineering behind some of those ancient Roman bathhouses is quite impressive.

Alison: 21:51

Oh yeah.

Evan: 21:52

but so the most basic type of still is the pot still in the pot, still on a much larger scale pots that contain thousands of liters are still used today. In commercial distillation, almost every stock you will find, especially single malt is distilled in a pot. Still. Many brandies are, have to be distilled in pot stills and the regulations around specific spirits can be very specific depending on where it's from and local laws, the other big type, most common type of stills what's known as a column still. So this wasn't actually invented until the 18 hundreds by an, a man by the name of Mr. Coffee spelled differently than the drink though.

Alison: 22:32

did I ever tell you why? I know the actual Mr. Coffee? Oh, he's a very nice man named Dave.

Evan: 22:39

There's a, I did not know. So you know, somebody from the coffee family, the Irish family that invented the column

Alison: 22:44

Oh no, no, no. no, no. His last name is non-con. He just like is the guy who built the original Mr. Coffee

Evan: 22:51

That's different. That's the really cool.

Alison: 22:53

It is really cool. Very nice guy.

Evan: 22:55

Yeah,

Alison: 22:56

but you said Mr. Coffee and I know him.

Evan: 22:59

uh, coffee with two F's, C O F F E Y an Irishman, uh, who lived in the ma in the mid 18 hundreds and developed the first successful top first successful poem still, which means that you could run it continuously. You just have to pump more liquid into it. The potstill you have to empty and clean out between every batch, the continuous still, which is used for a lot of big products. especially a lot of vodka is only done on the Tom stone and you can't do a much higher percentage of. Uh, and the develop different flavors you can put, it's a lot easier to pull out specific flavors in a, in a tall I'm still because you go a certain height on the column and say, I want this one and just siphon off from that point. And, you can do that continuously in the potstill, what you have instead. And the potstills what I'm more familiar with learning about because I learned a lot of the stuff from whiskey, the potstill you actually use time. So the first things that come off the still are known as your heads, they're very heavy, not very tasty.

Alison: 23:59

can we just confirm here?

Evan: 24:00

Yes.

Alison: 24:01

You mean T I M E

Evan: 24:03

Yes. Well, if you were doing an herbal cure, you might be using both.

Alison: 24:09

fair enough. But I feel like with us, I should usually just make sure we're clear.

Evan: 24:16

Yes. The tie time is in the, the, as in the continuation of entropy.

Alison: 24:20

Yes. That thing,

Evan: 24:22

Not the ARB.

Alison: 24:24

no,

Evan: 24:25

Um,

Alison: 24:25

those that could be delicious.

Evan: 24:27

though it could be delicious. Um, there are plenty of spirits with herbs included, I think time and may be one of the 55 that's used in chartreuse.

Alison: 24:36

well, uh, w chorus is going to have to be a different episode and infusions

Evan: 24:42

Yes.

Alison: 24:42

once I've actually done one

Evan: 24:44

yeah.

Alison: 24:45

vanilla

Evan: 24:46

but so the next,

Alison: 24:47

for that.

Evan: 24:48

yeah, the next, the next one do you do off the stills? What's those your heart cut. That's the really tasty stuff. And that's where you get most of your flavors. This is for both whiskeys and brandys and other similar pot, stilled spirits, and this, and this is coming off significantly higher than. From what you get in a bottle, almost everything is watered down even sometimes before it goes in the barrel. There are laws about what percentage it has to come off the still at between high and low. What percentage has to go into the barrel last again? Highs and lows?

Alison: 25:20

and side note. I am watershed things is not a bad thing. I know you see people dropping ice into, into whiskeys or, adding a few drops of water. Adding water to, to your alcoholic. Beverage is not necessarily a bad thing. I mean, depending on what it is, because a lot of the times adding water actually helps release more flavor.

Evan: 25:43

absolutely. So like some of the, one of the nicest whiskey bars, they went to served every glass of whiskey and a tasting glass, like the one I'm using right now and also had a small glass of ice water and an.

Alison: 25:56

Pretty cool.

Evan: 25:57

Exactly. So adding, water's not a bad thing. It's all about getting the various types of flavors and flavor profiles. So distillers will change how much they add based on the profile they're going for. Of course you can still be shorted by having water down whiskey. And there some whiskeys that I think would be great at 43%, but they're sold at 40. So you can't get much flavor out of them. That that's a different thing. Alternate. So after the hearts cuts, which is the really good stuff you have the tails, most of the time, what distillers do is they just add the tails into the next batch. Here's, there's still flavor and there's just not concentrated. So you just add that into the next batch and whatever good you'll get out of it. As you just keep adding it back. One of the distilleries they used to do some work for, and I'm hoping to have them on, instead would save the tail separately and make an infuse them and make a different whiskey, a flavored whiskey. So they did a Marsala chai, which is delicious. They've got an Earl gray, which have not had the chance to try. They did a coffee, one with coffee and chocolate, which was delicious. They did an elder flower and hops, which wasn't my thing, but was also very well received.

Alison: 27:04

Elderflower is I think, something that a lot of people prefer in moderation.

Evan: 27:10

Exactly. And hops.

Alison: 27:12

Yeah. Which I definitely prefer in moderation

Evan: 27:17

Uh, I prefer in very, very moderated amounts.

Alison: 27:21

and that's okay. Because people have different taste buds and they are going to prefer different things, especially when it comes to alcohols.

Evan: 27:29

Absolutely. And just so we don't care what you prefer. We want you to be able to use the language to, and find what you like and improve and get the things you'd like even more.

Alison: 27:38

This is all. It's all an experiment. These are all giant experiments. I mean, obviously there are things like, Evan's Belgian cider that he makes every year. There are things that you repeat, but most of the things that I feel like so much of the fun of being a home brewer is being able to experiment and come up with things that you like being able to try new things. And I had a point there and I don't remember what it was.

Evan: 28:04

Absolutely. But that's kind of just the, the, the ethos of this podcast.

Alison: 28:08

Yes, no, but I had a specific reason for saying it just then I got halfway through my sentence and I forgot why I was gonna bring it up. So continue. And maybe I'll remember,

Evan: 28:19

Yeah. So a lot of spirits are distilled a second time, sometimes a third. and that is just

Alison: 28:25

right, sorry. What I was going to say is everybody has different tastes. And the best part about homebrewing is that you can tailor what you make very precisely to what you like best.

Evan: 28:35

absolutely.

Alison: 28:36

what I'm going to say.

Evan: 28:39

Exactly. And that's a good point. It's a little harder to do with distillation. Given home, distillation is illegal in this country, but if we have any listeners in New Zealand,

Alison: 28:49

oh, it's legal in New

Evan: 28:50

it is legal in New Zealand and there is a great, if you want to learn more about distillation from a home distiller, I will in the show notes, put a link to a great YouTube channel called.

Alison: 28:59

oh,

Evan: 29:00

Who is a home distiller from New Zealand and also does infusions

Alison: 29:04

very cool. Um,

Evan: 29:05

in his own home distill vodka.

Alison: 29:07

that is really cool. And although we can't, distancing is precisely to our tastes to due to the legalities of it. And do you think it's worth noting that you can, you don't have as much control over the process of course, but you can also tailor things similarly using little course, take a very neutral spirit and. Best with it as much as you want until you get what you like

Evan: 29:31

exactly. Doing your own, your own infusions is, at least to my knowledge, in all 50 states legal, it's considered a top, a home cocktail, which are legal and old in every state,

Alison: 29:41

or it's called the vanilla extract.

Evan: 29:43

yeah. For now, or it's told that strats, which tends to be 44%.

Alison: 29:48

oh, I've seen much higher than that.

Evan: 29:49

Yeah. True. Bitters tends to be 44.

Alison: 29:52

Yeah. But anyways, back to the topic at hand, I'm really derailing us today.

Evan: 29:57

those are, relevant topics.

Alison: 29:59

Yeah. But I'm still really derailing us today. No regrets, but

Evan: 30:04

no problem. But the so sometimes they're distilled a second time or a third, even with some whiskeys and brandys. I'm most, again, most knowledgeable with whiskeys here. But frequently you actually add in not necessarily frequently, but sometimes you add in your herbs and other flavors into the second distillation, either directly into the liquid or holding it above the liquid. So the vapors pass through it. And that is how you get gin by adding Juniper. Or you can get gins predecessor, genever by adding Juniper and other spirits. Your neighbor has a much more multi flavor. Like whiskey gin is stripped of most of that whiskey like flavor.

Alison: 30:42

The second added to the old man liquors list.

Evan: 30:45

It should.

Alison: 30:46

Okay.

Evan: 30:48

We should add genever. I love genever, uh, though. I don't think I have any here. But genever is its own fun story that I can talk about. But so a lot of spirits are then aged. Not all of them, some of them are aged in glass, including some brandies. Many of them are un-aged, there's no point to aging, vodka or gin really, whiskey, depending on your jurisdiction has to be aged for, some have no require, no age statement. The in Scotland, it has to be aged for three years in Oak, in Ireland, it just has to be aged in wood. In Japan, the rules are even laxer. So in Ireland, there's some people doing Chestnut barrels, Japan, you see Cedar barrels as well, but Oak is the most common and in America for something to be called a, for something to be called a bourbon, which is the most popular kind of. In my opinion, unfortunately, I'm not a huge bourbon fan,

Alison: 31:37

Oh, I'm a, I'm a bourbon fan. I like okay. More specifically. I'm a honey bourbon fan, I know. It's, I that's something that gets looked down upon a little bit, but I personally, I think,

Evan: 31:52

so I,

Alison: 31:53

there are flavors that are really enhanced by adding some.

Evan: 31:56

yeah. I'd be curious to see what you think of the other Jews and booze bottle I have, which is the regular maple syrup finished a rye.

Alison: 32:05

How can it really cool. I mean, I am, I am about to experiment with maple syrup finishing

Evan: 32:12

Exactly. But so they used a used maple syrup barrel and put them in barrel finishings and other things I'll get to in a moment. But so for technically the rules in America are for it to be what is referred to as a named space. Or named liquor, is it has to be dependent. The name determines what your grain source has to be, and your grain source has to be at least 51% of the grain that went into distillation. So you'll use a mix of barley malt, barley, and corn, et cetera, bourbon SB, 51% pour and everything else. Rye, rise ride. Obviously a malt means barley wheat means wheat. wheat means wheat,

Alison: 32:49

Sorry. and the funny thing about the same wheat is wheat is because, or not wheat as wheat in general, but if you look at old recipes, allotment of times, you have to be careful with like, we're talking really old recipes. You have to be careful with what you're actually adding And making sure that it properly aligns with what, what would have been used in the area. Because for example, corn was a generic term. It didn't specifically mean our modern corn. They did often use like one, one term for everything. Apple, for example, was a generic name for fruit. And I mean, I think you can guess where a lot of mistranslations came in as a result of that one. just be aware whenever you're looking at old recipes,

Evan: 33:33

So corn, in old English means small hard thing. So that's where you Colonel.

Alison: 33:39

Yeah. So, the importance of, of being specific with naming your spirits and, being clear about what's in them has had some and distinct historical reasons

Evan: 33:52

Exactly. So bourbon has to be made out of American Maize

Alison: 33:56

being or

Evan: 33:57

another guest, what most people think of a sport, what most people think of is corn. And so it then has to be aged in a fresh lead charred Oak barrel is the other thing for a named spirit in the United States? How long it doesn't actually say, though, if you have an age statement, on it, it has to spend that much time only in that Oak barrel in America, you can not do a finished whiskey and still have it. An age statement. Brandy in America is much more lenient about the rules, Brandy and Francis, very strict in Scotland. You have to have aged in a Oak barrel. It does not have to be a new Oak barrel. In fact, most of them are used bourbon barrels. for three years

Alison: 34:38

Also scotches, this fits a specific.

Evan: 34:42

at any was G made in Scotland. Yes. And Scott in Scotland, they spelled whiskey without an E and in Ireland, they spell it with any America. For the most part uses the Irish.

Alison: 34:52

And also if you read, as a recommended previously, the drunken botanist by Amy Stewart she talks about this quite a bit about the, the variations.

Evan: 35:02

Yeah. So I'm a single again, we'll talk, I'll use the Scottish terminology here, though. You can extrapolate it to other spirits and other locations. They, single malt scotch means a single distillery made with installing. It has to be a hundred percent barley, a hundred percent malted barley, actually in Ireland, you can do use on barley and that's what gives a lot of Irish whiskey. It's pretty and kind of biscuity flavor. So single malt means single distillery. A hundred percent barley, a blended malt means multiple distilleries. And, but in Scotland, what you can do while still having an age statement is what's called finishing. So we'll spend most of its time in that one barrel probably used bourbon one because every bourbon barrel is freshly charred. You have to use a new barrel. So they're cheap, which is there's so many of them, what they do then is they will finish it in a Sherry barrel or a port barrel to get some of those other complex flavor notes. And so I'm a big fan of Cheri finished whiskey.

Alison: 36:00

Again, they're not going to be for everyone. so

Evan: 36:05

I said I'm a fan.

Alison: 36:06

yeah, I encourage tasting things.

Evan: 36:11

Absolutely.

Alison: 36:12

to not really like Sherry,

Evan: 36:14

I'm actually not a fan of Sherry itself, but I love Sherry finished whiskey.

Alison: 36:19

I don't know if I've ever had a Sherry finished whiskey. which is why my first thought was, and just saying not everybody likes everything. I haven't tasted it. And I mean, I am a person who will have, who will try most things, which is why, my roommate is. Trying to get her hands on a bottle of mallort for me to try.

Evan: 36:41

oh, Y

Alison: 36:43

Oh yeah. Cause I

Evan: 36:44

you also spent, you spent time, both of you spent time in Chicago land and you didn't try it

Alison: 36:49

I lived in Chicago for five years. Never tried Malark cause everybody said it was disgusting, so it, and just never got around to it. And then only I actually maybe taste that. So she, she has had it. So we're gonna try and get our hands on a bottle on the Lord, halfway

Evan: 37:04

I do not know where you can get one. Realistically.

Alison: 37:07

do I but

Evan: 37:10

see if they're available here. I don't

Alison: 37:12

be aware that, I mean, don't be afraid to try new things. don't be afraid to try something that sounds weird or grocer. Interesting. You don't know if you're gonna like it? It might be disgusting, but a sip can hurt.

Evan: 37:27

Exactly.

Alison: 37:28

it probably can't hurt.

Evan: 37:29

Yeah. Always drinking in moderation. We say that at the that's added to the end of every episode,

Alison: 37:35

Oh, okay, good. I always drink responsibly.

Evan: 37:39

But so. Another thing we can, we can talk to a lot more in detail about any specific spirit. And we might, especially if people want to learn more, because I know I can ramble on about most of them for quite a while. And a great place. A lot of liquor stores, depending on your states may do tastings. Some restaurants will do tastings. If you can go to a distillery, depending, again, depending on your state, you may be able to do flights. And if they do a variety of products, you'll be able to try a variety of things go to, if you go to a nice bar, even you may be able to samples of things and tell you the bartender, you would like to learn more about something and hope, and a nice bartender will try, will teach you what they know. And again, if you have questions, you can always ask us,

Alison: 38:22

we may not have the answers, but we'll try,

Evan: 38:25

we will do our best.

Alison: 38:26

try to find.

Evan: 38:27

But so there are a bunch of different classifications of spirits. And I've kind of talked about a lot of these, and I know I've also rambled in this episode because this is something I know a lot about.

Alison: 38:37

Oh, sign up. There's a distillery right near me.

Evan: 38:40

Ooh fun.

Alison: 38:42

Huh?

Evan: 38:42

I've been to two distilleries in the last week in, Utah, and I'm going to, I'm going to the main location for one of them later this week for the cycling clubs end of the year party but so some of the most common classifications of spirits you'll see, and these are frequently what you'll see in the, aisles of your local liquor store, is of course the one that I've talked to the most about is whiskey with, or without the E depending on where it's. I don't need to go much more into detail about that, right now. Another one of the big categories would be Brandy, which are distilled from fruits and wines. Sometimes

Alison: 39:16

like this live events we were talking about earlier.

Evan: 39:19

is sometimes whole plum branding. And sometimes frequently, at least in the Brandy aisle, you will see apple Jack, which is its own products made from cider and has a history dating back. Well before the revolution. A subset of Brandy of course, is the more famous cognac which are made from the same re effectively a region that overlays champagne.

Alison: 39:44

Oh man. Funny thing about cognac. My roommate, when, her parents recently moved from, Connecticut to Colorado. And they cleared out the liquor cabinet and did like a little auction, between the family to like get rid of different things. And one of the things that my roommate comes home with is there's a bottle of Ukrainian cognac.

Evan: 40:10

So tenet Lou would be Brandy, but again, labeling laws are not always the strictest.

Alison: 40:15

it is labeled in Ukrainian as cognac. And we call it the rotten gut. Cause I mean, it's Rocca, but we've just got this like one weird bottle of Ukrainian cognac in there along with some other weird things. Like don't get me wrong. There are some other weird things in our liquor cabinet, but

Evan: 40:37

I mean, most of the, where things are, things have bought because I find them interesting over here.

Alison: 40:42

I mean, we've got the elderflower liquor in there. We've got Drambuie, which I actually happen to like, um,

Evan: 40:49

good mixing ingredient, in my opinion. I'm not a big fan of it straight.

Alison: 40:53

Oh no. Emily puts it into cocktails for me. And That's lovely.

Evan: 40:55

great, great cocktail ingredient.

Alison: 40:57

Yes, this is not also none unnecessary tangent, but anyways, the funny thing is that we have this weird sketchy bottle of

Evan: 41:04

So have you gone yet?

Alison: 41:06

cognac.

Evan: 41:08

Another beach category. And this is an entire book on itself is rum.

Alison: 41:14

What is done? Yeah. Oh, packets of the Caribbean

Evan: 41:18

there. I've just seen that either.

Alison: 41:20

good movie. I believe it's from the second one. I don't remember. It's been a long time since I saw those. Anyways, rum, can be made out of basically any sugar and sometimes you'll find it infused with things or the weirdest rum I've ever had, which was actually the best rum I've ever had, was distilled out of mango sugars, which I don't know. if it should technically be considered a rum, but it was made out of like sugars taken from it. I

Evan: 41:52

I don't know. I'd have to learn more about the process, whether I call it a Brandy or rum either way. It sounds.

Alison: 41:57

I found it in a little shop in, nassau in The Bahamas. So I don't know how they're labeling things, but they called it mango Roman. It was

Evan: 42:06

I honestly would trust the Bohemian regulations more than I trust the American without knowing anything else.

Alison: 42:14

Yeah. But I feel like, one of the things about having, I mean, I don't know if they need this prior to colonization or not. Cause mangoes do grow. you wonder if it's a spirit or some sort of substance that's made by a native community? Whether or not like it's LA presumably it's less about staying as strictly to like our naming conventions and instead going, oh, we make this out of something sweet. It councils around. It doesn't matter if it's made out of sugar that we've pulled out of a fruit. Cause we just make it out of something sweet.

Evan: 42:54

yeah,

Alison: 42:55

and I think that would be something highly cultural and not something that I should have any comment on it.

Evan: 43:03

yeah, no, I would agree. But, if you want to, if you would like to learn more about rum, there's a wonderful book that also talks about rum cocktails in the history of TKI, called Smuggler's Cove.

Alison: 43:14

Ooh, are there pirates

Evan: 43:17

I mean, in history of rum, you bet. But so like Jamaican rums and other British other former British colony rums tend to be made in potstills in kind ha in shorter, potstills in the style of scotch stills, whereas, former French colonies use a taller still. That's more like a Brandy still. And I guess something I should mention along with the stills is they're mostly made of copper, which pulls out a lot of the sulfates you get, especially from rum production. So you get very different flavors from the tall still. That's almost a column, even though it's a potstill versus a kind of short squat, still like a, like you use in more scotches.

Alison: 43:52

anyways, if it's tasty

Evan: 43:54

It's tasty. It's good. It's just very diff yes, very different flavors across all types of rums and even Navy strength rum. We could go on and on, on about rum, I'm trying to limit how much rambling in this episode poorly, but.

Alison: 44:08

Yeah, well that mango rum, then I mentioned the strangest thing about it was that it was thick, like a syrup

Evan: 44:15

Oh, yeah. Especially in a shorter, still run, which you get in The Bahamas you get in Jamaican rums, you get a lot of those heavy byproducts and the heavier flavor compounds. And, oh, I love that. I love those personally.

Alison: 44:28

dude. It was awesome. I've never, I couldn't tell you what it was. I've never seen it. I never seen it before and I've never seen it since, but man, it wasn't good.

Evan: 44:40

I'm going to, it's not defined in this state, but I'm to keep an eye out for it.

Alison: 44:44

I really, I found it in a little shop in NASA. So if you're ever in The Bahamas, keep your eye out.

Evan: 44:49

I don't have any plans to travel that region of the world right now, but who knows?

Alison: 44:54

Yeah. I still need to get my passport renewed.

Evan: 44:56

I just got mine

Alison: 44:57

Nice.

Evan: 44:59

and I had to send it in today for my job.

Alison: 45:01

Woo.

Evan: 45:03

so also in the relatively similar region of most rum production, you've got. Tequila,

Alison: 45:14

I'm sorry. I'm not sorry.

Evan: 45:24

but similar to a lot of, in the, the central America and Caribbean, you have tequila.

Alison: 45:31

We're not exactly pro whistlers here.

Evan: 45:33

You're not,

Alison: 45:34

Nope.

Evan: 45:36

Made from a GABA. So you're making up, you've discussed previously, potentially doing a, a, a to Tila mash. So

Alison: 45:43

I'm sorry, potentially. Also I think I pronounce this wrong on the last episode the beverage made that's directly fermented out of a is called, is pronounced pool. K, I think I called it Polk last time, but it's pronounced pool. K.

Evan: 46:01

Yeah. The writing made me think it was also Polk, so don't worry.

Alison: 46:05

Yeah, totally reading it. Thought it was Paul. But anyways, my apologies for that fact checking myself.

Evan: 46:12

but so tequila is made from a Gavi, which is again, native to Mexico, and is also much like cognac limited to a specific region that tequila region, if it's made from a Gavi outside of that region is known as Ms. Cal as well as there's some other rules about it being a hundred percent blue Agava to be

Alison: 46:30

Hang on a

Evan: 46:31

be considered tequila.

Alison: 46:32

Let me, get the specific side here. Um, here we go. Hey guys, to tequila and mezcal, a hundred percent a, Hey, must be if something, this is what different labels will say. If something says a hundred percent it must be made, entirely from eight to which is the plant species Weber blue, which is a specific variety in the DEO. I don't remember what that stands for, but it's like the area allowed, with no added sugars must be bottled by the producer in Mexico. You may also be called a hundred percent DIA Gavi, a hundred percent pure And so on from as count must be made from one of a number of approved Gabe's species in the DEO with no added sugars. So the one of the big differences is the actual species of a Gavi that is used to make tequila versus Mischelle can be any other type of, a Gabi tequila, a bottle labeled a bottle, simply labeled tequila. is a unique STO meaning it can be made with up to 49% non Gabe's sugars. It can be bottled outside the DEO under certain conditions. Do yourself a favor and skip them. And this book has an opinion or Amy Stewart has an opinion. Do yourself a favor and skip the mixed is still. Tequila or mezcal would be un-aged golden is also unengaged for tequila, maybe flavored and colored with caramel color, Oak neck, natural extract, glycerin and or sugars are up. So not it's not any more special or anything. There's no reason to go for gold, better off just going with silver. Cause it's going to be pure age, is going to be aged either and French Oak or white Oak barrels for at least two months. Extra aged means aged at least one year in a 600 liter or smaller French Oak or white Oak barrels And ultra aged is aged at least three years in those same,

Evan: 48:38

And the same barrels. So the, the, the white Oak barrel probably means ex-bourbon barrel,

Alison: 48:43

Yeah, it doesn't

Evan: 48:45

a merit it's American, white Oak, and most common source for American white Oak barrels is the bourbon industry. So tequila use a little bit different, nomenclature for aging than do some of the other spirits. Whiskeys tend to be age statements. How many years it's spent in a barrel Brandy there's a whole has its own nomenclature, XO vs VSOP, Napoleon, et cetera. So all of these do have their own nomenclatures, including tequila. I'm

Alison: 49:11

if you're really,

Evan: 49:12

I'm more familiar with the others so that I prefer the others, but it's not to say that one is greater than the, than any of the others by any means.

Alison: 49:20

Yeah, it's just different. Like we're talking about different plants, different. Sometimes different eat yeast. There's so much involved that varies from place to place. That's cultural, that's regional, that if you're really interested in a particular spirit or beverage, I really recommend that you dig into that specific therapy rich and ignore whatever you see about anything else, because they are really different from item to item. And it's, they're not really worth trying to compare.

Evan: 49:54

absolutely. And like I've recommended. Cove for rum. That's where I learned a lot about what I know about rum. There are tons and tons of great books about whiskey. So you can go to a library or your favorite bookstore. Find something up with Steve. Plenty of great options. I also have learned a lot about my whiskey, about whiskey from visiting distilleries, other, spirits, uh youth, plenty of other great options on books and not places to learn, learn about what you want.

Alison: 50:22

Yeah. There's really no shortage of resources for information on specific things. You might, you might think that you are drinking something that's unusual, or you you've discovered a niche look or something like that, but I guarantee you, you can find other people who are feeling the same way about whatever it is they're drinking. And even if, even if it's really niche and you're having trouble finding books, there's a lot of online communities that, talk about these things that have, I've found to be great places for asking questions and gathering information.

Evan: 50:57

absolutely. I'm not sure about specific spirit related Facebook groups, but most of the Reddits are very good. as far as, specific like the whiskey Reddit is very good. The brandies are, is not as active, but it's good. The only one I honestly think is stuck up. Cause all the other sort of like what you like, the only one that I think is stuck up is the absinthe one.

Alison: 51:21

Yeah.

Evan: 51:23

Um,

Alison: 51:24

I mean that doesn't really,

Evan: 51:25

It doesn't surprise me, unfortunately. But so effectively, if you're going through your liquor store there to other aisles, you're likely to find gin and vodka. Unfortunately, nowadays there's not as much distinction between the two as I might, like vodka is neutral by law in the United States is neutral spirit that is watered down. You have to distill vodka to above 190 proof so that there's no discernible flavor and the water it down baka by law has no discernible flavor or character that does not to say there's not cheap Fata that has discernible flavor and character, but by law, it's not supposed to gin. You add Juniper berries during the distillation to get, to get your flavor. And you can add different amounts to some gins, have added sugar and other botanicals, but the main flavor of gin has to be Juniper.

Alison: 52:15

which is something that I'd really like to try. And you can order all sorts of botanicals online to infuse things with,

Evan: 52:23

Oh, D I've bought Juniper. My grocery store.

Alison: 52:26

oh, well I have not seen it in my local grocery store, but also I haven't locked.

Evan: 52:32

let me go take a look. But so the predecessor to Jenna I mentioned is genever, which will add, which will add to our old man liquor series.

Alison: 52:41

I can't find it on the website that I found the other old man liquors on.

Evan: 52:45

Ah, well, genever is also known as Dutch gin and is not a protected name in this country. So genever can basically mean whatever. And I've seen genever that are not technically a neighbor sold in this country. And I will get into

Alison: 52:58

are you just really enjoying saying DNA for,

Evan: 53:02

I do enjoy saying genever, which is the Dutch pronunciation, the Belgian pronunciation, or the Flemish pronunciation, to my knowledge.

Alison: 53:12

and it is spelled in geneber.

Evan: 53:13

It's spelled genever, but the, but through linguistic changes, and during the, not the glorious revolution, the wars, the Spanish succession, when the English were helping the Dutch become independent from the Spanish and trying to fight against the then most powerful nation in Europe, Spain, or Habsburg Spain, I should say, the Dutch, the English help

Alison: 53:34

in assuming the English are fighting with somebody and it's probably I've in the Spanish or the French, it's probably the French, but sometimes it's the

Evan: 53:42

yes, but I mean, you can, you can say that about pretty much every country in Europe, for more than 500 years, they're fighting with somebody except Switzerland,

Alison: 53:50

Well, Switzerland

Evan: 53:52

is staring, which is staring aggressively across the border.

Alison: 53:55

yeah. They're not necessarily. Switzerland is not actually the most neutral place. They just don't actually fight.

Evan: 54:03

Yes. But so as I was saying with genever, the Dutch, the English, didn't like saying geneverso they called it Jennifer, which they then shortened to gin, but in the same,

Alison: 54:13

is how language develops.

Evan: 54:15

the same time period, because the Dutch were doing a lot of distillation and the English brought it back over, they were introduced to higher proof spirits on a mat on a greater level than the aristocracy, which has had access to Brandy. Because aristocracy, they were, they started calling this higher proof, alcohol, Dutch courage because the Dutch would drink it before going into battle because everyone was going to die more. Most of them from dysentery.

Alison: 54:40

boy, Mike Glenn for vaccines and you know, hygiene.

Evan: 54:45

Last night I finished a book by one of your favorite authors, um, grunt, the curious science of when human stowed of

Alison: 54:53

I haven't read that one.

Evan: 54:54

Oh, you haven't. Well, hygiene and prevention and prevention of dysentery is one of the topics.

Alison: 55:00

Well, oh, I guess dysentery is more of a thank you for, antibiotics things

Evan: 55:05

Yes. But also, you know, just general, general sanitation

Alison: 55:10

oh my God, I'm really glad for sanitation I'm really glad for vaccines. I'm really glad for antibiotics, antibiotics, wreck my system for a while. Every time I have to take them, but you know what? I am grateful as hell for them.

Evan: 55:26

a lot better than the alternative.

Alison: 55:29

Yes, I'm, I'm a big believer, you know, make your Willow bark tea for a headache or, give somebody with a cold, some lemon and ginger. Great. I can give some money. yeah. A vaccine for polio and, antibiotics for dysentery

Evan: 55:50

Exactly. There are plenty of things that are great honey has benefits, mint, all sorts of traditional things have great things, but they are addendums to modern medicine. They are not replacements

Alison: 56:05

yeah. Anyways,

Evan: 56:07

anyway, so

Alison: 56:08

kids, get your booster kids.

Evan: 56:11

Absolutely. I believe we've covered most of the big distilled spirits you could find in your local liquor store.

Alison: 56:18

Yeah. We've also been recording for quite a while.

Evan: 56:22

This could be fun to edit. but so some of the other, episodes we're planning to do, we'll see if they're all in one series or we returned to this and please let us know if there are things you want us to cover in any specific one, or if there's something we think we're really missing and distillation, we're hoping to interview

Alison: 56:38

old man liquor thing. And the old man liquor thing was, was a request. and it was said to me, and I just thought That was the most fun thing. So

Evan: 56:47

That absolutely is on the list. We're also hoping to do interviews with distiller, with some distillers and distillery managers. I mentioned Jews and booze and barrel picks, which are an interesting thing that goes along with the modern, distillery and distillery law. I hope to have that as an interview, we're going to do an entire episode on infusions, you can make at home. So if you ever want to learn how to make something and you want us to cover it, let us know we've got plenty of options. And last of all, and this is something that I'm sure we'll return to because you can incorporate your homebrewing cocktails. And I've already mentioned punches, which is definitely going to be one of the things

Alison: 57:26

I don't know how long this episode it's going to end up being, because Evan might definitely got a lot of tangents in here. many of which are going to be cut and end up in our actual tangents episode, whenever that ends up. But if you've made it this far or we've cut a lot out of it, so it's not hideously long. thank you for joining us. We still don't have an actual sign out and happy fermenting.

Evan: 57:49

Happy fermenting.