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SheBrews, HeBrews: A Jewish Fermentation Podcast

Episode 14: Punchy Punches

December 08, 2021 Evan Harris Season 1 Episode 14
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Show Notes Transcript

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/cape-fear-punch-recipe-1917913 

https://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/good-eats-company-punch-recipe-1948159

https://altonbrown.com/recipes/clarified-milk-punch/ 

https://www.seriouseats.com/clarified-milk-punch-the-varnish 

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https://www.instagram.com/jewishfermentationpodcast/ 

Our Website:

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Evan:

Welcome to episode 14 of She Brews He Brews a Jewish fermenting podcasts, where we hope to discuss all things home brewing and fermenting. Today. We're talking about punches. I'm your host. Evan Harris and with me today is my co-host Alison Shay.

Alison:

Hey there. And just to clarify it by punches, we mean That the alcoholic beverages referred to as punches, we do not condone any physical violence

Evan:

That is correct. We are talking the alcoholic beverage known as a punch that there are of course, at least in this country are non-alcoholic versions as well, which in many iMedia are then the butt of the joke by having somebody or spiked the punch.

Alison:

or alternatively referred to it. People refer to the non-alcoholic version, says bugged juices. Um, which I just think is a funny term.

Evan:

That it is, but did you know legally in this country, something labeled as fruit punch does not have to contain any fruit.

Alison:

That is horrifying. and I don't like it.

Evan:

Uh, but, so what are you drinking tonight?

Alison:

Well, I was at trader Joe's earlier and I found the prettiest blue bottle that happened to be about two feet tall, maybe two and a half feet tall.

Evan:

It is very tall.

Alison:

I haven't noticed the bottle I'm talking about. and me being a home brewer who has recently purchased a course. Ooh, I want that bottle. So I bought this bottle of wine and clearly my roommate and I decided that it needed to be emptied so that I could use it. So I am drinking, not very good wine, that was in an exceptionally tall blue bottle because I liked the bottle.

Evan:

So this is a V I have seen these before and I've debated doing what you've done.

Alison:

It's not good wine if you're in trader Joe's and you see this very tall, very pretty, it's, it's two bottles of wine in there,

Evan:

Yeah.

Alison:

but if you see this very tall, very pretty blue bottle of wine, do not expect it to be good. One. It's a pretty bottle. If you're going to bottle in it, go for it. But, the wine is, not, not good.

Evan:

So a double bottle of wine is referred to as a Magnum of wine and bottle sizes get larger from there. A lot of them are actually named for ancient Kings of Israel.

Alison:

But also, yeah, like a Jeroboam. for example,

Evan:

Uh,

Alison:

but also in his worst, noting that once you start drinking that very large bottle of wine, you forget the names of very large bottles of wine,

Evan:

I forget them even when I've not been drinking.

Alison:

which is entirely valid.

Evan:

So you have, so after the Magnum, a three is sometimes referred to as a marriage zone, a four is a double Magnum or a Jeroboam, which also can be a sitz depending on what region of France you are. Then a row bomb is also a six, again, depending on region of France, an eight, is it an Imperial or a Methuselah? A 12 is an ancient to Syrian king. the Selma and those are 16 is a Balthazar again, not Jewish king, but Christian Bible, a 20 is Nebuchadnezzar. I want a 20, I want an Aboriginal reserve to put my Homebrew it. Now

Alison:

Oh, yeah, just for the fun of it.

Evan:

that that is a 15 liter bottle of wine. A standard bottle is 0.7.

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

Uh, 24 is named after another one of the Wiseman. 26 is a Solomon, nevermind Nebuchadnezzar. I want a Solomon of line

Alison:

oh yeah, that's a good one.

Evan:

35 is a sovereign, which was basically only created for some cruise ship to life is a 36. And then a 40 is a lights, biblical thing of Salem or a Midas, king of, or in Greek legend.

Alison:

Those are too large. I don't like it.

Evan:

You mean you don't want 40 bottles of wine in one bottle?

Alison:

No, I had trouble lifting and pouring the Magnum.

Evan:

Yeah, that's the problem. That is actually why wine bottles are roughly the size they are, but I do want Madmen bottles at some point.

Alison:

Yeah, I mean, I've bottled with Magnum models, but they were, like normal shaped bottles of wine. Yeah.

Evan:

fair. No, I actually, I know that is fair, but a little bit more on today's topic. I actually made a small bit of punch for today, which we'll talk about my recipe later.

Alison:

Very nice. Oh wait, we didn't get to, what are you drinking? We got

Evan:

exactly what I'm drinking

Alison:

Yes. There we go.

Evan:

Well, you have to stratify the bottles, but how has your, Polk going?

Alison:

Well, it's pronounced pole K as it turns out, we've probably mispronounced it in the past.

Evan:

I think we've used both pronunciations.

Alison:

So right now I'm doing the Pokay completely plain. It is just plain Gabay, fresh from my friendly neighborhood, Costco. and I put it in shortly before I left for Thanksgiving, so when I first got back from Thanksgiving, well, before that, one of the things that I had Googled and found out about Paul was that apparently the traditional version, which is not made out at the same guy that I'm using, it's made out of a different type of the, of the Gavi. There's a whole variety of different plants. And, as we've mentioned previously on the podcast, tequila is made out of a very specific variety and the stuff that you can get readily available in the states is not going to be that. So I have Costco Gabi and, the traditional version looks Milky, like it's suppose it's supposed to have a very, cloudy white appearance. And when I first got back from Thanksgiving and took a look in my closet where I keep my carboy, it was quite Milky looking. It was a, it was a light yellow, very Milky color. if you had taken, some milk and diluted it slightly in that in yellow food coloring, which is I guess, a very strange description, that's pretty much what it looked like. starting earlier today, it finally stopped blooping Evan, I referred to referred to the fermentation by the flukes or, the number of times, times the carboy bubbles. So if you ever hear us refer to something as the number of seconds per bloop, it's the, it's the number of seconds in the interval between, bubbles released,

Evan:

Yeah, through through the airlock, it's a very scientific measure.

Alison:

oh yes. Excellent. We are, we are excellent in diligence scientists here in my closet. anyways, so I noticed earlier today that the blooping has completely stopped. Not only that the cloudiness has begin to clear up. So right now, when I have as a sort of own Bray towards the bottom, the top is pretty clear. It's not all the way clear. it looks kind of like you're looking through a frosted glass at the moment or a, or a glass that's too cold. but you can see it's clearing up and as you go further down to the bottom of the carboy, it looks cloudier and cloudier, which is very interesting to see. so I think it's going to clarify all the way I'm really interested to see it. I'm going to let it clarify on the carboy before I bottle it into that ridiculously tall blue bottle and other things,

Evan:

This would be really interesting to see how much it clarifies.

Alison:

Yeah. But, now that as of yesterday, it was still, it was still moving away, like 14 seconds per bloop, and today it's pretty much completely stopped. So I'm going to give it another few days and then I'll probably take a tape. and then if it hasn't stalled, I really hope it hasn't just stalled or something.

Evan:

Well, the fact that it's clarifying, at least in my experience suggests that it's finished and not stalled.

Alison:

yeah, I mean, I guess this is a question for you as a more experienced home Brailler. if something has stalled. is it safe to, and you drink it and it's still sweet. Are you good to go ahead and bottle that?

Evan:

Oh yeah. So I mean, if it's, well, it depends exactly on why it's stalled. If it is stalled, because it has become too cold, you do risk fermentation when the, if the bottle warms up and then you could pop corks or have bottles. You're more like if you're corking, you're just going to pop corks, which means you're gonna lose some of what you've made. if it has stalled because the yeast has died. No problem at all. As long as you're over about half percent alcohol, which is very low.

Alison:

Yeah. I show for context, I've never actually had a stall happen. It's something that I've heard about and, I mean, it's something that's on my mind at the end of, at the end of brews. Like, am I okay? And then.

Evan:

a few stalls most of the time it gets within the drinkable sugar. Sometimes you can get some things that are really, really too sweet to drink. the one that is too sweet to drink is actually what I ended up doing. What I believe is the, the why the white labs east, you asked about actually there's champagne, yeast stalled on me and champagne use tends to be very good. I tried pitching more yeast. I don't know what happened. It just stalled. And it was me attempting to do a champagne style. It's stalled about three times more sugar than is normally drinkable.

Alison:

Yeah. we've talked about specific gravity is in converting the sugars into alcohol previously. but it it's just worth noting. When we were adding sugar before a fermentation, we were adding a lot of sugar. We're measuring the sugar that we're adding in pounds.

Evan:

Yeah. Especially

Alison:

is not something you want to be drinking.

Evan:

No. So it was a, the gravity, it stalled out was 1.098, which is above many starting gravity's for bruise. So what I did, and I've told, I've talked about this before is I taught, I bought a barrel from a local distillery that I used to do some work with, and watered it in quotes down with. And made a fortified Mead that is similar to port. So at the time I was searching for a job and I said, when I got a job, I would open the barrel. Then you'd be a month or two, but just 10 down barrel. That's a good amount of time. it took me quite a bit longer and I still haven't opened it, but, probably open it when, later this year when family's in town,

Alison:

Yeah. And as in, is moving shortly for

Evan:

I am moving though. The barrel might stay in Utah because I have that ability.

Alison:

barrel and then all spare real here. You want to move a barrel?

Evan:

Yeah. And most of my stuff isn't here. So

Alison:

Yeah. I will also be moving in January. just cause my lease is up

Evan:

Have you found an apartment yet?

Alison:

no, not yet? We're still searching, but one of the things that's very much on my mind is, I'm gonna move my equipment by hand. Like I don't want it. We're getting numbers. There are some things where you just want to move my hand.

Evan:

Yeah. but I, when I do move and this is something I'll discuss at a later point and may have another potential interview tryna have my friend on to talk about kegerators, because I'm doing a kegerator for my apartment,

Alison:

very exciting. Separate

Evan:

I can force turbinates and do all sorts of sweet stuff. So one of the reasons you don't normally want to do sweet and bubbly, so you can do sweet wine. Like we're still kind of talking about the stalled stuff. If you can purposefully try and make something that's sweet by stalling, your yeast, we have different methods. and what you do is, and if it's flat, that's perfectly fine. But if you want to do sweet and bubbly, you basically either have to use non fermentable sugars, or you have to force carbonate, which you need kegs to do.

Alison:

And we've talked about previously, On this podcast, but when you are talking about adding non fermentable sugars, for anybody who's concerned about dietary restrictions or fruit, keep an eye on those because some of them will making nonfiction. A lot of them are dairy based. So just keep an eye on that. and if you want it to remain PARP or be allergy friendly, avoid having a lactate, a lactose based one. Also We are Jewish. or I am, I mean,

Evan:

We are

Alison:

at the very least are Jewish, and, Jews are somewhat notorious for having lactose problems.

Evan:

That is correct.

Alison:

Uh, another reason to avoid using lactis.

Evan:

I've never had, so sweetening with non fermentable sugars is one form of back sweetening. And I've actually never done any form of back sweetening in my brewing.

Alison:

I intended to with the maple cardamom. I still, I have thought about breaking open some bottles and seeing, can I just break, open some models and add in maple syrup?

Evan:

If fermentation's fully done. Yeah. If not, you're going to get some sparkly bottles.

Alison:

they've been corked for awhile.

Evan:

So odds are, yes, you can do that.

Alison:

Yeah. I might leave them a little bit longer and keep it corked, but,

Evan:

Yeah. Well, we are approaching the time when the most number of bottles of champagne are purchased per year.

Alison:

Yeah. So, interesting thing about the pandemic in general, alcohol sales went through the roof, the Champaign sale. Went through, went through the floor. They have really plummeted during COVID and I think they probably gone up in, in the last eight months or so, but for a very long time they were down.

Evan:

That is correct. There are people who made champagne punches,

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

I think we've kind of run out on that. We can talk more about how back sweetening and stalled fermentations and other day as we have more of those experiments happen,

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

but so punch, and this is punch of something that people can actually use a lot of their home perform one or two places, depending on how strong they want their punch to be.

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

So, yeah. so. A little bit of a history lesson. There's not a huge Jewish component to the history of punch, but punch does originate in Europe, at least with the east India, the British east India company, which has a notorious history. And yes, there were some Jews involved. There were Jews involved in it, but wealthy businessmen involved in it of all types from, England and Britain. and it was a punch centrally, a lone word from Hindi, meaning five due to the five traditional ingredients used in a punch recipe. There are of course are also the connections to something. We talked about two episodes ago with mold wines and other, European sort of proto punches. So glued and whistle

Alison:

I'm sorry. What.

Evan:

glued the German, red wine. You are though you were the one who found the recipe and was very excited about it last

Alison:

but now I know I have. Yes, but now you are pronouncing it or attempting pronounce it and I have had wine. So now it's very funny to me. Okay. I think that's valid also. It is late o'clock at night for me. So I feel like that constitutes another excuse

Evan:

No no problem. but so, because punches were realistically brought to Europe in the early sixties, early 17th century. So the early 16 hundreds, but they were became very popular later in that century with the introduction of popularization of rum, which was cheaper to get than the previous spirit that was used in them, Batavia around.

Alison:

and our rock we've I think we've mentioned it before.

Evan:

Well, we've mentioned Iraq. We've never mentioned Batavia Iraq, which is spelled differently and is actually red rice distilled it's from Indonesia, and is really funky flavor. So the funkier rums let the Jamaican rums, which I love, really became popular, replacing it and are now. And we're for quite a while more common than the,, then using Batavia rock or brand your other ones,

Alison:

You mentioned the best Rutland's ever had on this podcast before?

Evan:

maybe.

Alison:

I'm not sure. Sorry. I am just slinking lower and lower in my

Evan:

For a moment for a moment, like the commercials where the dad is just sinking down. Cause his chair fault is falling.

Alison:

Yeah, I figure it. I feel like it's worth noting that like I have not actually had very much wine. I'm just an extreme, lightweight, and usually I only have one glass and this is last number two. It was kind of a heavier, but I am genuinely just the lightweight. I have not actually had that much alcohol anyways. the best room I've ever had, was in The Bahamas. I was in the, well, I, I didn't have it in The Bahamas. I was in the airport, leaving The Bahamas in Nassau, which is, the Capitol, and has the biggest airport, and waving turbines, flights, international flights made sure to get there early and I'm walking by the liquor store in. Duty-free area or whatever it is, the area that I think of as the duty-free area. and they see this bright pink bottle and I go all in all at the that. Wow. And I walk over to it and as it turns out, it is mango room.

Evan:

I think you've mentioned on the podcast. You've definitely told me it sounds

Alison:

Okay. Well, it was fantastic. it was like bright pink syrup, basically. It was actually, it was actually very sweet. I don't know how they did it, but from what I can figure out, it's made from mango sugars when it's made from sugar and mango sugars, but there were Mangere sugars involved in it. and it was bright pink and very delicious. And we try and get on the rocks because it wasn't like. Normally when you drink something on the locks, it's you want the cold and you want just a little bit of water to, to open up the flavor. But in this case, you're really wanting to give it a good shake with the ice, because it was so thick. You needed the melt. yeah. Yeah. it was, it was changing the yesteryear up and we added a splash of wine. So sweet, genuinely, just such a fantastic beverage. but sometimes, I mean, you get, well, I guess leading a little bit more into the topic of punches, you have a lot of different components that go into a mixed drink that, have different flavor profiles. A lot of the time there'll be very one note and you want to put them together to make something that's going to have a much more complex and satisfying. So like, in this case, we just had just kind of sweet, tangy, something that was very syrupy and we needed to add something that was a lot sharper to bring out, make the flavor less overwhelming and nauseous, Sweden. So you're not going to just eat a line straight up, you know, it has that beautiful citrusy flavor, but you also know it has the really nice, really strong sourness. Um, and you want to mix it with something that's going to compliment that, that, and make those, those nice fruity notes come out, um, and, and kind of make the sour a little bit less. So in doing that, and you're also taking something that's really tasty, um, but too sweet and kind of mixing them to make something that's much more balanced.

Evan:

Absolutely. So punches normally follow what's called the rule of five, which again is part where the name comes from, borrowing the term for five from Hindi. And this is easy to remember. And I actually learned this and they a good eats episode.

Alison:

At the Alton ground yet again.

Evan:

I think I have four of his rest or three of his recipes that will be linked in the show notes. and it's one part sour, two parts sweet, three parts strong in four parts week plus spice. So way back in yield days of the British east India company, one part sour would have been lemon or line again, import all of this was imported pretty much two parts. Sweet should have been pretty much anything for honey or sugar. Three parts strong was either rum or that Batavia rock the four parts a week. And this is where you can use your Homebrew and most recipes, you can, you can use your home brewed wine or beer, but frequently they were using champagne, turbocharging, their punches and spice because they were again, very rich people from the 18 hundreds was nutmeg.

Alison:

Which is it's whole other, not Meghan's is quite a tangent that we can go on another time, but no, Meg, it has a long storied and fascinating history.

Evan:

Absolutely. You think of as a very wintery spice, but it's a tropical,

Alison:

Fun fact. Do you know why Connecticut is called the nutmeg state?

Evan:

Uh, because of the importation businesses there for many decades.

Alison:

No. I learned this from my roommate who is born and raised in Connecticut. Shout out to Emily. But Connecticut is called the numbing state because in the early days of. The state of Connecticut. I'm not actually sure if it was pre or post revolution. but they ran a thriving, false nutmeg or, counterfeit nutmeg businesses.

Evan:

Interesting.

Alison:

Yeah. they would just use tree bark because people didn't know what not Meg was actually supposed to taste. Like they just knew it was an expensive spice. So can get, get a little bit, I've got all sorts of Interesting. trees, uh, just exported, bark, shavings, and random nut shavings and said, Hey, we're selling you nutmeg. And people just didn't know what nomad really was.

Evan:

That is

Alison:

went with it. So the name nutmeg state is actually a reference to their history of counterfeiting.

Evan:

That is hilarious.

Alison:

Just one small story in the. History of nutmeg. There were wars fought over nutmeg and it's, it's so strange to think about it. And this is another tangent guys, but it's so strange to think about it. But throughout history, spices have been such a valuable commodity. And I just went to trader Joe's and got a jar of one for a dollar 99

Evan:

It's crazy. Most the major spice for most of those wars was not mad.

Alison:

Yeah. And my roommate in question, who is from Connecticut, uh, and told me about the nutmegs, it happens to hate nutmeg, which is a separate thing altogether.

Evan:

She hates Anna's

Alison:

She, yes, she eats anise.

Evan:

just not like spice,

Alison:

Oh no. She does like spices, uh, Paprika Garlic and onion and what? Yeah.

Evan:

is badly pseudo native to Europe.

Alison:

Delicious. she, likes cinnamon in small quantities. She likes, she does like spices,

Evan:

it was just funny. Cause I've never heard somebody complain about nutmeg before.

Alison:

Yeah. She told me that she hated cinnamon, but she liked cinnamon rolls. And I was like, do you hate cinnamon? Or do you hate what accompanies sediment? And as it turns out, she hates, what's what accompanies cinnamon she's final ginger and all spice and who doesn't love the smell of clothes, but nutmeg is. And I think it's worth noting that nutmeg does get soapy to a certain degree in large quantities. And I say that as, as a cilantro, So person, I am one of those

Evan:

numb it doesn't get soapy to me and I don't have the cilantro soap, but,

Alison:

I don't think it's related. I think it just kind of gets like a general, like too much not

Evan:

it can get overpowering very quickly, but you actually mentioned another spice that frequently is used in traditional punches. That being all space.

Alison:

Oh yeah. Which I think is so cool.

Evan:

Well, yeah, allspice DRAM, which I've mentioned making infusions. That's why I made it as to make money. I've not made a big Punchbowl mountain. Well, two years last time I had a board game night or so

Alison:

Yeah,

Evan:

because I'm making like small amounts of punch or there actually some drinks that are basically a punch that are single serving planters punches a very common one, a Mohito follows the punch a ratio

Alison:

Huh?

Evan:

with the addition of mint is your spice.

Alison:

Yeah, It's weird to think of mint as a spice to me,

Evan:

Yeah, it is. But, well, I mean, it's weird to think about it, but that is its use in, in the drink.

Alison:

Yeah, I actually, I don't know if this is an uncommon thing or what, but I very strongly prefer the use of mint and savory dishes or hot dishes. I think that when mint is cold, um, it's like double the sensation as cold in your mouth. And I'm not really about that.

Evan:

So I, I definitely think it is underused in, in savory and warm dishes. I actually saw a recipe for a Chinese style mint beef that looked really good and I need to make,

Alison:

I giving you my recipe from mango gazpacho before,

Evan:

no, but that sounds like something that I want.

Alison:

well basically just large quantities of mango and ice. It is a cold application, but you all, it's, it's a lot of basal mango. Ice and a little bit of mint. And if you like moment, then you can add Mormon. But I go for a lot of alone, a little bit of mint and it is go great. I had it at the, Fairchild botanical gardens just south of Miami, which if you are in the area would strongly recommends they have great festivals and the gardens are beautiful. I am a former member and also I'm a big fan of supporting local institutions like that. but I have it at their cafe once and just fell in love. And when my mango tree started, reducing just kept making these massive batches of manga Despacito.

Evan:

but when it is not snowing outside, that is something that we'll have to make.

Alison:

Yeah. We strongly recommend what was I saying? Oh Yeah, mint and savory applications. I had some Indian food recently that had a whole bunch of mint in it. And as somebody who does not like cilantro,

Evan:

Yeah.

Alison:

like mint is a great substitute for freshness.

Evan:

Yeah, I haven't had good Indian in a while.

Alison:

Well, you should fix that.

Evan:

Well, there's not,

Alison:

two hands on a stove.

Evan:

that is true. The last time I entered India and I made it, I just need to go to the grocery store in

Alison:

Cheers. I shoved my wine glass at the camera. Like a theater,

Evan:

Um, what was I thinking?

Alison:

two glasses guys. Lightweight.

Evan:

I'm not a lightweight.

Alison:

Yeah, Well,

Evan:

Yeah,

Alison:

my bruise lasts longer than.

Evan:

that is true. Um, should we go back to punches?

Alison:

Punch buggy and green. No punch back.

Evan:

but with punches, there are a few different ways. I think where we were in the episode, there are a few different ways you can use your Homebrew because there's. Straw and your weak components. So you can use your Homebrew as the strong in the news, water or club soda as your weak part or any soda, really. and then you'll have a lighter punch or you can use a strong spirit as the straw and you put in a week and use your Homebrew as the weak and have a nice, strong punch, which through the cold winter you might want.

Alison:

Yeah. Well, cold winters were.

Evan:

That's true. Well, I'm praying for snow right now.

Alison:

I just need to hype the fact that it is current. It was 66 degrees. When I went out to trader Joe's earlier this evening, where I got the giant bottle of wine.

Evan:

Yeah, it is currently 30 degrees here and snowing. I got out, I've got an out on my skis for the last 12 days. I'm pretty sure.

Alison:

have skied twice in my life. The second time I skied into a tree and then my brothers skied into me, skied into the tree, and then we went inside and I haven't been, since I also believe I was approximately 12 at the time. So, it's been a solid decade and a half.

Evan:

It has been a solid five hours, six

Alison:

I'm rather inclined to leave at, at a decade and a half close at this point.

Evan:

Alright. I love stealing, but I've also been doing it for 24 years

Alison:

I'm easily distracted. and the mesh on this microphone is interesting.

Evan:

and they are. I know. but so the punch list, do you want to know the punch recipe that I made earlier today?

Alison:

Uh, yeah,

Evan:

So what I followed the rule of five, pretty strictly. I did one part.

Alison:

I'm counting

Evan:

lime juice. I use a show, just sugar. I use the sugar substitute so that the technical total amount was not the same was not two parts, but total added, added up to the equivalent of two parts, sugar. It didn't dissolve quite as well. So I ended up with something, a little sour,

Alison:

three.

Evan:

three. I use Slivovitz

Alison:

Oh, getting your old man liquor on.

Evan:

it is that'll be another episode soon. I'm sure

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

for, I used port.

Alison:

Um,

Evan:

So do I felt like the plum in the port would be a good combo and except for the fact there's a little sour. It was so instead of using nutmeg, because we didn't have any whole, Netatmo not med, I used Angostura.

Alison:

Nice.

Evan:

And I mean, again, it was a little sour boost, quite tasty. So if you use simple syrup or honey or anything that would make sure that it integrated fully being incredibly delicious and you can mess around with what flavors you want, but it's an easy way to change things.

Alison:

I feel like now is a good time to return us to the book that I have referenced many times the drunken botanist for planes that create the world's great dreams by Amy Stewart. cause you talked pretty extensively. Angostura bitters because there is, there's a lot of, like legal questions surrounding English or bitters.

Evan:

yes.

Alison:

Hang on, let me find the page 2 28, 2 24. Angostura anyways, here we go. Uh, the long and the short of it is basically is this guy Johann Siegert, moved to Angostura, started making aromatic bitters made in Angostura and then, moved away from Angus stirrup. They kept making the same thing. And, even though they didn't actually contain any Angostura, anything from the Angostura a tree, they claimed the name of Angostura bitters. So there were a lot of lawsuits, in the early 18 hundreds, um, all the way into the early, uh, early 19 hundreds. And then, um, there's like, this was controversial all the way up through the fifties, pretty much, but it was pretty much resolved. And in 1905, they basically, the whole lawsuit is about whether or not either. Call yourself or call it Angostura bitters, despite not containing any Angostura. And the end result is pretty much because they are known and they have been continuously known as Angostura bitters because they originated in Angostura rather than containing Angostura it's acceptable. So you can buy actual Angostura bark or Angostura, whatever parts of Angostura, then you want, which is a tree. but if you're buying Angostura bitters, you need to know that it's an aromatic that contains all sorts of herbs and spices, but are not actually made from Angostura bark. I don't think this is ever going to be relevant in anybody's daily life, but it is an interesting bit of American trademark has.

Evan:

So it's not international trademark history because the city formerly known as Angostura is now known as the and he's in Venezuela.

Alison:

Yes, but The loss?

Evan:

The lawsuit was in, various several courts. If I recall,

Alison:

yes, but the final one was in American courts. In 1879. it was in the British courts. there was some like, political asylum in Trinidad for awhile. And then, basically the British court says that using the name of Angostura bitters is a, is a form of fraud. so they don't have protection under the law there, but in the U S they do. have protection under the law, even though they can't contain it, even though they can't claim a monopoly.

Evan:

Yeah, so, but there are bitter aromatic bitters that contain Angostura bark.

Alison:

Yeah. So Angostura bitters have to specify that it does not contain Angostura work.

Evan:

So, you know, that is one of my favorite, at least story about Angostura bitters. So apparent. So which is basically started by two brothers in and it settled in Trinidad, eventually moved to Trinidad and Tobago. One was the story goes that one was sent to Joe by the bottles, the other devices. That's why your store is bottles are very distinct with having a label that stands too far up and always gets crinkled at the top.

Alison:

Huh? That's funny.

Evan:

That is at least the,

Alison:

never heard that

Evan:

the story, what,

Alison:

I'd never heard that

Evan:

ah, yeah. And it is a great use of spice in a, well, any cocktail you should buy a bottle of this. It's just good stuff. Even just club soda, a few dashes are delicious.

Alison:

Yeah. let's try it at some point. It's just like a fascinating history. And again, I really recommend this book. I've referenced it a lot. You've heard me mention it many times on the podcast, but also like I'm a big believer in having reference books on your shelf. I have, I have all shades of different miscellaneous reference books on my shelf and wonder when a point comes up or when something comes up. It's good to be able to grab the book up and say, okay, um, I'm looking at this type of a dab or, uh, this type of, um, And this type of product is going to, uh, go into this or historically, this is how this is done. It's just nice to be able to look this stuff up. And I know it's not the, it's not the number one most comprehensive book, but she does do a on all ingredients, but she does really, um, deep dive into the things that she does talk about here. So I

Evan:

and I need to reread it. I read it through my library and my Kindle,

Alison:

Yeah. I casually commandeered it from my dad who hadn't read It It was on his bookshelf and I said, Hey, you mind if I take this and he hadn't gotten to reading it yet and he didn't seem to mind.

Evan:

I need, I need to get a copy though. Aside from the punch recipe I just gave in the show notes, we have two ultim brown, punch recipes from, his season 13 episode, six episode called feeling punchy.

Alison:

I thought you said the episode was six and then I was going to start singing. We are one of a kind, no, can I have to go, sorry. From the musical

Evan:

I never, I haven't seen the musical.

Alison:

I haven't seen it either, but the music is catchy as hell.

Evan:

I've not listened to the music.

Alison:

six, 10 and the six wives of Henry the eighth.

Evan:

Yes. Divorced beheaded diet divorced, beheaded survived.

Alison:

Yup.

Evan:

But there is one more category of punch to talk about tears giving me a look like really?

Alison:

I was going to say physical violence, not physical violence. We are not discussing physical violence and you should not be engaging in

Evan:

no, you should not. but a category of punch told a clarified milk punch.

Alison:

So not what I have in my closet, but probably looks like it.

Evan:

No. Well, actually maybe depending on what, how it clears out, because it is a clear drink frequently, frequently, these are made with tea as an ingredient. And what you do is that you actually add milk about a quarter of your volume of other liquid ingredients. And the, because that first ingredient is acid, it's the sour, it curdles the milk, and then you strain it through you, then strain it and pass everything through the Kurds. And that is a filter pulling out a lot of the offer, bitter flavors generating a very smooth sweeter drink that has just a lot of body that you get from kind of the bitterness in some ports or tea. And again, I'm, and it was very popular in the 18th and 19th century. it was found in the cellars of both Charles Dickens and Benjamin Franklin after they died. And it is raw and you should still keep it in a cold temperature, but as relatively.

Alison:

That's pretty cool.

Evan:

Yeah. And again, I've included two recipes, one of which has Ultem brands.

Alison:

I also think it's worth noting that if you're going to make a curdled milk, like a beverage with curdled dairy in it, this is something I recommend you make in a small batch and taste it because none everybody's really in big fan of it.

Evan:

Well, so because you're straining out and removing the CURT's,

Alison:

Yeah. But it gets a different flavor.

Evan:

so it gets a different flavor. I it's a little impractical. You shouldn't be ma you're not going to be making giant batches, but the recipes are not small. They make four to six, I think normally, which is a very reasonable amount. It's still very stiff drink, but if you make it too small, you just don't end up getting enough out to really tell.

Alison:

Maybe, maybe it's because the way I'm thinking of it is, is like, as somebody who makes cheese, I know I've tasted way before. And like, once you remove the courage, the flavor is very different than what you expect. So I've actually never had one. I've never had one of these curdle milk beverages that I know of.

Evan:

not.

Alison:

but the way you describe it makes me think like leaving the way behind it does have a distinctive flavors.

Evan:

so

Alison:

I would wonder. I'm just curious.

Evan:

made them, there's been very little milk or way like flavor in the drink, but it pulls out a lot of the tannins and other bitter elements.

Alison:

Okay. So it might be a good thing to make with a group of friends rather than expecting to drink a whole batch by herself.

Evan:

yeah, it's definitely punches in general and things to make with friends.

Alison:

yeah.

Evan:

I wanted to get more into them and then I wasn't able to have friends over anymore.

Alison:

Yeah. LAN, Any last bits to add on punches seven?

Evan:

I think people should make them. They're great thing for the holidays, whether you're just with family or seeing friends, there are great things, especially if you live in cold weather, but of course they can be any time of year anywhere, and they are, have a lot of history to them.

Alison:

Yeah. And I think one thing then is just like a good thing to think about, but like I know when we think Punjabi. There are a lot of, at least in, in the states, I would think when you hear the term punch, there are connotations of Hawaiian punch or whatever, like fruit cocktail

Evan:

Yeah. For cocktails and Mo movies, movies of Anthony, like back to the future. I like high school dance sort of thing, and somebody spikes it. But then that then reminds me of Ted lasso, the Christmas episode, which have you seen that one yet?

Alison:

I haven't seen that one.

Evan:

So this one, this is a traditional Mexican punch. And if you want to make a cheat sheet, we can add to dealer

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

she smells like this. One of the smells, the galleries, this one is pretty cheap

Alison:

Yeah.

Evan:

anyone who hasn't seen Ted lasso, go watch it.

Alison:

It's excellent. but no, and I was thinking was more like, don't feel confined by like what you think of as the traditional punch. Just like, think of something that You think would go well together and

Evan:

You have the ratios, the mess with, so just start with those ratios, put pick ingredients you think you'll like and have fun.

Alison:

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Evan:

Yeah.

Alison:

What I know is, we do have a sign off, let us know if you like it. so far tonight she's brewed. He needs brewed and now it's time for you to brew. Happy, fermenting.