Late-Night Talk: Elena Hoffer, PhD. Life Beyond Academia: Transitioning From PhD to Industry, and more

The transition from academia to industry remains one of the most challenging journeys for PhDs, yet it's a path that half of all doctoral graduates will take. Elena Hoffer, PhD and founder of https://www.alma.me/ shares her journey from academia to entrepreneurship and explains how she helps PhDs and PostDocs transitioning to industry careers after reaching over 100,000 LinkedIn followers.

• PhDs often struggle to translate their academic skills into language industry employers understand
• Networking is about relationship building over time, not transactional requests to strangers
• True value of a PhD lies in who you become during the process, not just the thesis produced
• Industry employers value PhDs for their problem-solving abilities, resilience, and "get things done" mentality
• Most successful job searches focus on 1-2 targeted positions rather than applying broadly
• Taking courses in areas like project management signals clear career direction to potential employers
• Time management and prioritization are essential for balancing entrepreneurship with content creation
• The PhD degree remains valuable but could evolve to better prepare graduates for diverse career paths

Visit https://www.alma.me/ to learn more about helping PhDs transition to industry, and follow Elena on LinkedIn or listen to her podcast "Post PhD Directions" for more insights on leveraging your doctoral experience in the professional world. PostPhDDirections podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/2trW8zOrwLgh9HKWNqHLpp?si=41cec8b3020d4c3a

Students and Graduates!

This is a mid-roll from my late-night talk with Ilana Horwitz, PhD, about her book The Entrepreneurial Scholar. A New Mindset for Success in Academia and Beyond. Use the code IMH20 when buying her book at Princeton Univ Press

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Students and graduates,

Have a break from this session by hearing a late-night talk I had with Michael Gerharz, PhD, about the impact of communication in your PhD and in public.

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome back to PhD Lounge
• 8:37 PhD thesis submission and upcoming Viva
• 13:29 Introducing Elena Hofer and her work
• 25:18 LinkedIn evolution and content creation
• 34:59 Transitioning from academia to entrepreneurship
• 48:14 Why PhDs lack guidance for industry careers
• 1:02:44 Networking misconceptions among academics
• 1:14:42 How AlmaMi helps PhDs find industry jobs
• 1:28:18 PhD skills that industry leaders value
• 1:45:37 Building a podcast alongside a business
• 1:55:17 Final thoughts on PhD as future degree

Transcript

Speaker 1: 3:37

Hello students and graduates, welcome to PhD Lounge, the podcast in which PhDs have a drink and talk about their research topics. I'm your host, luiz, and PhD Lounge is back. After my last late-night talk with Ilana Horvitz and her book, the Entrepreneurial Scholar, now I'm back and had a fantastic late night talk. However, let me break down what I've been doing. First, I successfully submitted my PhD thesis on discussing hybridity and the third space while studying Dura-Europas, pomwira and Hattra as my case studies. This was back on the 27th of June and needed to spend the last three months to read and write over what I had researched, as well as revising my cited sources, arrange the bibliography list and other minor tasks, including the acknowledgements, table of contents, thesis summary and signing some declarations about my PhD thesis being held by Swansea University in the future. All in all, for those who are interested in adventuring into the PhD degree, remember that it's not linear, but rather a marathon with loops and hills, where you'll experience your setbacks, moments where you feel unmotivated, researching and writing less disagreements with your supervisor regarding the structure of your dissertations, personal issues and many other episodes and many other episodes. I had mine too, and writing a 100,000 words was a huge challenge that quote-unquote took four years of my life, but sooner or later this will be paid off when moving through the Viva Voque and potential corrections, corrections and finally obtaining the PhD degree. Speaking of the Viva, it was announced by the PGR board that it'll be on the 18th of September at 2 o'clock in the UK time zone, with the announced chair and the external as well as internal examiners. People who I shared this with, including my parents and my brother, have asked me how I feel. I responded that I'm thrilled and looking forward for this challenge. At the same time, those who also went through the Viva advised me to think about it as a positive experience when interacting with the external examiner, learning from their viewpoints about my thesis and making the most of it when debating and defending my arguments against the ones from the examiner as well.

Speaker 1: 6:36

Besides finishing the thesis, I also had to prepare a working paper for an international conference called Celtic Conference in Classics, which took place at Coimbra, portugal. This was my first ever conference presentation in my homeland. Happy moment to present a topic of my thesis, especially at one of the best universities in Portugal, but also one of the oldest and significant higher educational institutions in the world. The topic I presented on a panel on epigraphy and mobility was about whether there was a Pomeranian diaspora in the Greco-Roman Near East, showcasing an analysis to the epigraphs mentioning Pomeranian and Greek names in Duraeropus and Pomeria that may indicate potential returns of Pomeranian people from migrant communities to their birthplace in order to connect with their deities. I haven't uploaded it on my academiaedu profile yet because the organizers, myself and the other speakers are in talks to publish our papers into a volume into renowned publishers in the field of classics and ancient history. I can't say much about who the publisher might be because of such negotiations, but soon, on another late night talk, I might give some clues.

Speaker 1: 8:04

Besides presenting my paper, I also had conversations with a stall clerk from Bloomsbury Publishing about a future publication of my thesis into a book. It was a productive conversation, talking about what several processes of converting my thesis into a book entail, and the store clerk said to me that it's around an 8-month process of peer review and potential feedback from academics on whether the topic is good enough for a publication. Evidently, I have in mind to convert my thesis into an academic book in the future. I have in mind to convert my thesis into an academic book in the future, which I intend to start after submitting the corrections, which will likely happen by the end of January in 2026. Nonetheless, a huge congratulations to the panel organizers and to the organizers of the conference for making this amazing event possible, friends, for making this amazing event possible, and a huge thank you for granting me the opportunity to present my research in my home country.

Speaker 1: 9:08

Last but not least, I've started working as an intern at a company in swansea called rewise, a business located in mumbles where it helps people who are unemployed or are 16 and above and don't have the skills to get into the job market. Rewise provides tailored education for people to develop new skills through different educational workshops and courses. Working with different interns, I'm tasked to research and develop ideas for different projects and share not only with them but also with the CEO in order to make them well-structured and functional, to run the projects smoothly and appealing for the young people and unemployed. I'll provide the link in the description and you'll see what business model Rewise has. To get an idea of what I actually work on and with this breakdown, it's time to introduce to you the following late night talk guest. This late night talk was really informative where the guest was so passionate to speak about the current situation of PhDs and postdocs in today's competitive market. Hopefully you'll get some insights and even learn from the guest's experience and maybe even contact the person directly to have a coffee chat eventually, introducing, my guest has a PhD in Medical Sciences from Karolinska Institut in Stockholm, sweden, and began developing an entrepreneurial spirit to empower early career researchers to explore fulfilling career paths beyond academia.

Speaker 1: 10:58

That began with posts and content creation on LinkedIn about insights, advice and encouragement for those looking for new paths in industry. This led to a massive LinkedIn community of more than 100K followers and subsequently, the foundation of AlmaMe Link in the show notes. Subsequently, the foundation of Alma Mead Link in the show notes. The guest has also a podcast called PhD Post Directions, sharing insightful content with PhDs who successfully transitioned from academia into industry through personal journeys, practical tips and available resources to make the transition of PhDs beyond academia. So, students and graduates, grab yourselves a drink, have a seat and let's give a warm welcome to Elena Hofer. Thank you, lena Hofer. Welcome to PhD Launch Podcast and, first and foremost, it's so great to have you here as the OG of LinkedIn after reaching more than 117,000 followers, and I want to congratulate you for such achievement, first and foremost and probably the listeners are also tuning into this show, hearing this massive feat- Thank you, Luis.

Speaker 2: 12:55

It's like probably the nicest way I've ever been introduced. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 13:01

I wanted to do something in an approachable way and warmly welcome my guests, including you, to such an amazing feat of achieving so many followers, and I wonder are you still checking them? What's the current situation? Is it still the same? Obviously, it increased a bit.

Speaker 2: 13:26

To be honest, luis, there was a time when I did check followers a lot. I guess it's just normal, because it gives you this little dopamine hit, oh yay. But I don't really check them too much anymore. I think it's now just something that is constantly growing. But I also have to say that in a strategic way or I don't know if you can call it a strategic way I think I have moved away a little bit from focusing too much on growing followers rather than Well, actually, let's say, since I have started creating content, I do think my goals of what I want to achieve with LinkedIn have changed over the time, which may have been in the beginning it was always about providing value, but the way I measured was follower count, and now I'm looking at value for different metrics, which is really business growth. So it has changed a bit business growth.

Speaker 1: 14:24

So it has changed a bit. And then and I do agree with you on that point is uh, when starting your, you're doing some posts as you've you've started yours. Uh, seven years ago I did, I did some scrolling. I need to scroll it. So here's what I did some scrolling, first on my iphone, and my iphone kind of sort of crashed because it was using too much patch for e-life and so I needed to check on my um, on my imac back at home, and so I did. I did that and say, oh, elena's first post was seven years ago. And and then that was a repost from a gentleman called valentin kramer, creating his link for his business project. A u, c, t q I hope I pronounced it correctly. And now, as you said that you don't check the followers, you're just creating the content. And I wonder, with your tons of pie charts, um posts and your business goals on AlmaMe, what has changed so far until now?

Speaker 2: 19:48

First of all, Luis, please tell me how many hours did you sit going back in my feet?

Speaker 1: 19:54

Probably not so many. So, counting with the seconds I would say, because my Mac is a bit full now it's taking so much a bit of few seconds to take I'd say 15 seconds time record and it took me more than half an hour or so to do that browsing and surfing, because it is valuable how this evolution from the from your first post until now has has gotten improved luiz, a hundred percent, and I think it's something very interesting that you're pointing out, because I think what you're seeing on my profile is a good example of how every PhD usually uses LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 20:36

I think most of us make a profile at some point. Maybe we sporadically here and then do something. And, by the way, the first post this was actually actually Valentin Kramer, so that must have been a long time ago.

Speaker 2: 20:47

We studied together in our undergrads back in Germany and he started his own startup and I, just back in the days already Luis thought it was so cool what he did and because he just went out and he built his own thing and I always had this kind of like, I always felt like inside of myself a little bit like an entrepreneur, so I wanted to support it already back then. But the reality really is, while I think I made an account 2012, I have never really used my LinkedIn. No, seriously, never really used my LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 21:21

And what changed is that at some point, when I realized during my phd that I actually didn't want to stay in academia, um, I realized one way of getting in contact with people outside of academia when you don't have them in your immediate environment, which is something a lot of phds encounter right, you're in the academic environment, you're surrounded by academics day to day. How can you get you know, connected with someone in the industry? Or how can you get connected with someone who has similar interests as you do? And in my case, I felt like when I realized I want to be an entrepreneur, I wanted to find other people that also think in a more entrepreneurial way, luis, and that's when I reached out to LinkedIn and I joined a group which was called Founder Sunday. So the evolution really is from making an account, not really using it, because I didn't understand the value. Maybe also back in 2012, it was a different value.

Speaker 2: 22:20

Now, coming back to LinkedIn, really starting full-time content creation, which was in the beginning of 23 or mid-23. I think the platform has changed and evolved a lot, but also I as a person, of course, have grown a lot and I use it now totally to whatever I thinkd students need to. Kind of I see myself a little bit like a voice of phd students who goes out and talks about these topics that I think are really important what can you do after your phd, really, um and that most of them wish for more support. So, yeah, this is how I see myself these days on linkedin a little bit. So it has evolved these days on LinkedIn a little bit.

Speaker 1: 23:04

So it has evolved. So it's kind of like to see as someone that can serve as a role model virtually in this case on LinkedIn, to post content so that other ones can get inspired. Obviously, not many PhDs think that they have the time, that they lack the time to at least post something online and building a LinkedIn. I even know many, many PhDs that don't have a LinkedIn and doesn't want to start one. It might be twofold. On one hand, obviously, online presence is now a must, and even after COVID, it even increased more. So I can take credit from LinkedIn.

Speaker 1: 23:46

That hasn't changed a lot since, and I also had LinkedIn since the 2010s and I didn't know what that means. Actually, I only started having value on it when I started my PhD, but more value was also around the mid-2023, when I did a few posts to increase my podcast brands, etc. Etc. And it has changed a lot as well. On my perspective and connecting with you, connecting with other brilliant-minded people who want to give an opportunity to PhDs in industry. I don't know what are your takes on that.

Speaker 2: 24:24

I mean, to be honest, I totally agree with you. I think LinkedIn but I guess I mean, if you ask a lot of people, they would say LinkedIn has evolved a lot. I think when you think about back in the days when we used LinkedIn, I really think of it as a platform where you go to when you first of all want the job, or if you want to connect with someone professionally.

Speaker 2: 24:44

So I have met you and now we're connecting. So I think where it has evolved towards is that it's I don't want to say it's more like it's more of a social media type of platform, where it's still about professional connection and building this professional network. But you know, whereas, for example, when I was young and I thought, oh, on LinkedIn you only connect with people that you have met in real life, it's now a totally different game. I mean, you can follow people. You know how long it took me to understand that they have a follow button and what it even means. Luisa, I had no idea, but I understood there was a follow button, which means you can just follow people, because other people there are people on there who create content, so you can keep following their content creation or whatever they do if you want to stay in touch or informed. So from that point of view, I think it has evolved a lot and if you look at the PhD community up there, it's growing.

Speaker 2: 25:38

Luiz, I can tell you, when I started in 2023, there weren't as many phds on there. I see now lots of phds coming up. I guess they're also getting inspired. They're discovering this as something where you can, um, you know, talk about, first of all, something you may have an expertise in, or you can connect with other like-minded people and you can meet people from all over the world. And I think this is the nicest thing for me, because the only reason why we're sitting here, luis, is because we met on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 26:11

So it's really. It opens all these doors, and when you, when you understand that, um, then you see the value of the platform. And I think it's all about how you, how you use the platform and how you, what you I mean lot of I would say a lot of PhDs look at the platform and they say to me you know, I don't, oh, I've published a paper, or, oh, I went to conference, x, y, z. And then I say, maybe you don't follow the right people, because there nowadays a lot of inspiring content creators. You can get inspired, you can get educated, you can get stimulated, you can, like, get a lot out of this platform beyond just, oh, I went to a conference.

Speaker 1: 27:07

So, yeah, I do think it has developed a lot, yeah, and then I I also agree on that point in trying to follow, even connect with the right people, because also and that comes also with beginning of setting up the profile on linkedin, now you want to connect with everyone, this and that over there, without even thinking, but also it's that kind of a dopamine hit that that sets the bar really high and then after a few time, okay, I might lower my standards and nowadays we can.

Speaker 1: 27:34

As I said, there's a lot of phds and even the phd community is, uh, increasingly growing a lot, and I don't know if the statistics might be correct, but at least in the uk, at least two percent, has gotten increasing and I even there are even, even even in the uk people, people who graduate and want to do a phd, can do, can jump straight, not and skip the masters. That it's, it's a, it's a real thing here and oh, I never thought about that, I don't know, uh, but I do think that uh, following, not following the traditional role of the undergrad and becomes a master and then trying to go for a phd, I think it has changed a lot more opportunities. But if you have the research skills, if you have the knowledge and proposing something, whether you become funded on or self-funded, then I mean for the uk, for the uk context, just go for it and create your own linkedin profile as well. You know, to connect outside of your academic circle a hundred percent.

Speaker 2: 28:37

You know, luish, I I do believe that, um, it really makes the world a little bit smaller and I also believe that it, you know, it opens up. For me, it's a space where we can have discussions and we can understand how do things work in other countries, for example.

Speaker 2: 28:57

You know, in the US, they don't often even have a master's, as you say, to do a PhD. You just right, jump right in. As an example out of a discussion I have learned you know how are PhD positions funded? So in Sweden, you are an employee at the university, so you are yeah, exactly, you're paying into your retirement, your, your unemployment fund, you are employed so, whereas if you are in other countries, things work differently.

Speaker 2: 29:25

So I think what it really does, it's a, it's a place where we can all meet and discuss and learn, learn about other situations, make each other feel less lonely. I know there is a big community on instagram that for sure serves that purpose of building community and but in this case I think on this platform, linkedin we can discuss challenges within the academic system and understand how they, you know how things work in different places and in a way, I think you know this can also give this feeling of where you feel less lonely, because you feel seen, because you understand oh, it's not only me, or it's not only here in this country. Here it operates in the same way.

Speaker 2: 30:04

So, yeah, 100% it definitely makes the world smaller and you can talk about things where you otherwise never would come together with these people to discuss. You know these issues really.

Speaker 1: 30:20

Yeah no-transcript.

Speaker 2: 31:01

So, luis, is your question about the transition the?

Speaker 1: 31:02

challenge of the transition from academia into building Alma me or yeah, yeah that one.

Speaker 2: 31:05

Ok, ok, ok, okay, okay. I just wanted to clarify. Um, yeah, you know, for me the biggest challenge was when I wanted to build a business, to find like-minded people who understand the entrepreneurial drive. So, um, and you know, I felt a bit isolated in academia because I felt no one really can understand and I feel like scientists are often so risk adverse that I felt like maybe if I share my ideas with you know, colleagues, they would think I'm crazy, because I feel like I can build a company and I felt I needed to find other people who feel the same way. So, even through my PhD, I took a course in entrepreneurship, which actually was offered by Karolinska Institute, so I could take this for ECTS points, which was insanely helpful and has helped me out of this isolation. But, but the biggest challenge for me was to, because you know, as an entrepreneur, you have an idea.

Speaker 2: 32:09

And I'm not a person at all who thrives in isolation. I need other people to bounce my ideas around and get some feedback. But you know, it's a little bit like when you have a crazy idea and you tell this idea to the wrong people, you will get the wrong feedback. So you really want to surround yourself with people that are like just as crazy as you are, you know. So they don't drag you down, but they actually, you know they cheer for you this is what I needed.

Speaker 2: 32:37

Um, and this was a was a challenge for me to to find these people, because when you're in the academic circle every day, all day, how do you get in contact with these people? And this is really like coming back to linkedin. This is when I turned to linkedin, because I was always a problem solver. Right, I see a problem, I recognize I have a problem and then I think where can I find a solution? And one solution really was for me, linkedin, which I also have heard from a friend, and there was this founder group where I could really meet a lot of different founders. So, um, and it really comes to one thing just to be open overall throughout your your studies, because you never know. But, um, yeah, I hope I answered your question.

Speaker 2: 33:17

I think the biggest challenge for me was to find like-minded people who really understand what I'm, what I'm trying to do, people who really understand what I'm trying to do. And then the actual transition. Like when I made the transition, when I decided to build a business, there were all sorts of mindset mindset differences between, you know, academia and business that I had to learn or unlearn. An example I can give you for me in academia, you know, time never really had value. I, you work, you know you work all the time and no one like you work sometimes 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day, you work weekends and no one really compensates you. There is no, no real value at this time. When you move into business, all of a sudden, your time is connected to value. So it's the time, the one hour that you spend. You try to um generate value, or you try to generate something that drives value for the business, um, and so you start looking at how you use your time through a different lens, and it took me a long, long time to understand that my time has value.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Where I felt like I'm charging people now to. You know, in academia we just go everywhere for free. I mean, how can I charge people now to pay me to come and talk and share my knowledge, when knowledge is something that should be for free? Right, but knowledge, this is also dependent. It also directly connects to how do you spend your time. So if, if I go to speak at the conference for two hours, it may take me one hour to travel during that time, there is an opportunity because I can't generate anything else for the business. So it's so. It's just you start thinking in a different way, and it took me a long time to really um get into that mindset, but I had a great business partner who helped me through these challenges and that was a angela priest, isn't yeah, exactly, isn't she?

Speaker 1: 35:18

yes, so I've I've been checking, I've been checking all me, and you can see there's lots of value in there. There's a lot of interesting content that obviously, it has to be paid to acquire those resources, but some of those resources are quite limited, that not every university is able to offer them. Even though you're paying high amounts of tuition fees though, you're paying high, high amounts of tuition fees. Plus, if you are self, if you are, yeah, if you self-funded yourself, then you got the, the student loans and you pay interest rates and all that.

Speaker 1: 35:51

I think, sometimes, having that thinking, that mindset of having time, I have value on this time and I dedicate myself into it, in, in dedicating this and sharing this content for free, but at the same time, I want to see this as profitable, and I think that's how, when we need some desperate needs, we need some desperate measures, and so that's why I also am learning from many people on LinkedIn, including you, and trying to think about obviously in my slow-paced time, because I have other things to do as well how can I market this, how can I make my PhD launch profitable, and that's something that I'm thinking about on the long-term side.

Speaker 2: 36:36

A hundred percent. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, you invest time and you know it's something that you're building and, uh, you know if you can somehow, um, make it work for you, because you know that the reality is luish, while often we look at businesses especially from I, when I, when I was in academia, still, I heard a lot business you know they're the devils and evils because they make profit. They only care about money. But you know, luis, what I never saw is you know if, if you made money with your podcast, you could develop that podcast to the next level.

Speaker 2: 37:15

So it's not just about making money. It's about providing more value, being able to provide more value to your listeners, because now maybe you can invest in someone who can help you with the editing so you can invite even more guests. So it's all about. It's not just about making money. It's about also being able to start developing and providing a better service for the people you you do this for. And it's the same in a business, right, while we charge people, I take that money and I put it into developing an even better solution or make my product even greater, so they can even benefit more.

Speaker 2: 37:50

So, looking at it through this lens Luis, yes, you invest a lot of time into your podcast and imagine you could somehow monetize it and maybe, because you don't have to edit yourself now you can go and invite more guests, provide more value, and you know it's like, yeah, looking through this lens, it helped me a lot to understand most businesses really also use their money to develop the business and, yeah, it's a completely different topic now.

Speaker 1: 38:19

But I also see that from the perspective of the PhD student, in which some PhDs, when they enter straight away, they think, oh, this is like an undergrad, this is like a master's, doing the research and that's it. You get feedback, but then you have to correct. No, I think the PhD has gotten to a point where you got to think it like an asset, a business asset and I've taken that from a book which was offered by Princeton University Press and the guest, ilana Horowitz, was my last guest back almost five months ago. She was talking in one of her chapters. The PhD is an asset and you have to work around it.

Speaker 1: 39:00

How can you provide solutions for your advisors? That's what they're looking for. They're not telling you what to do. You are required to provide them a project managing the time, managing the resources and what to do with it afterwards. If it is good, good, you'll get always feedback from it and you agree and then you improve it, improve it until the official deadline you know, I, I totally agree with you, I mean on the on the um aspect of that.

Speaker 2: 39:35

You, when you do a solution, I mean uh, when you do a phd um, I, you know, before I did a phd, luiz, I always thought of phds as super phd students. I thought of them that they're very independent right, because in my, yes, mind, they were already so advanced in their academic uh degree. However, like I think it really depends. I have met lots of different phd students, but I do think if we all looked through the lens and we would kind of like erase the student, the student, because we're by definition not students, as you just said, in an ideal case scenario, a PhD student comes in, has their own ideas, of course you're always mentored and supported. Of course you're always mentored and supported.

Speaker 2: 40:24

But at the end of the day, there may be a question and you come up with the solution to the question and you try to answer the question through developing different methodologies or to get to the solution. And I think, at the end of the day, in an ideal case scenario well, I guess not everyone enters like this I mean again, there is a variety of um phds and also like different backgrounds and with what sort of independence they come in. But yes, I, I totally. Um.

Speaker 1: 40:54

Well, especially when you walk out of a phd, I think of a phd degree as an asset, a hundred percent, if you know how to speak about it and if you understand the value yeah, and that's the problem that, even though that it's slowly, slow, uh, slow, slowly, um having a change, they're still, as I was telling before that, still phds that think about this as an academic thing, which, in all fairness, to some extent it can be. It is recognized as such, but they also lack that guidance of getting out of the PhD and not thinking about the transition from academia to an industry job. So I wonder, why has that guidance into diverse industry careers beyond academia not happened yet?

Speaker 2: 41:47

To be honest, I have no clear answer, obviously, but we can come up with some hypotheses why this may be the case. So you know, I think there is a lot of discussion online ongoing why there is not more guidance, considering that 50% of the phds are leaving academia straight out of their phd, 50 directly leave. Yet we still talk about um industry as the alternative career path, when in reality, we need to maybe think why we at all label it and not think of a phd as a basis any sort of career, whether it's inside or outside. And to be honest, I do believe that nowadays there is sometimes a discussion do we produce more PhDs than positions we have? But honestly, I think that has always been the case historically. I don't have the numbers to support this, so I really believe it's not a new thing that PhDs leave academia. This has always been the case. What I do think and again it's just me coming up with some- ideas is that now we have a platform.

Speaker 2: 42:58

Think about it 30 years ago.

Speaker 1: 43:02

where could we meet and talk about these things MSN, you know social media wasn't a thing ago.

Speaker 2: 43:05

Where could we meet and talk about these things, msn, exactly? It didn't exist. You, you know, social media wasn't a thing. But this is coming back to social media and linkedin. It makes the world a smaller place because now, luise, you and I and all other phd students have the ability to connect and talk about oh, it's the same in sweden, it's the same in the us, and all of a sudden you realize it's the same everywhere.

Speaker 2: 43:28

And now it's becoming a big topic and, of course, having people like me being constantly out there and I mean there are other people out there, right, talking about this it becomes a topic and it's starting um to be discussed more and more on a university level. I can tell you, I mean, I talk to a lot of university people across Europe. I've been in Vienna the other day. I talked to Swedish universities, swedish university representatives and so on. There is a lot happening on a European level towards this topic. So now you can also, of course, I can think, think am I living in an echo chamber, you know? Because this is what what all these algorithms do to us these days. I have a feeling everyone is talking about it. Maybe it's been the same five years ago?

Speaker 2: 44:13

I don't believe so, because what I do here from universities, whenever I meet with people who work in career development for phds actually I talked to someone at university of porto I talk, talk. Really. They all tell me there is a lot of focus, and it's sometimes even coming from a governmental level. Because you know what happens, luis, researchers are highly educated people. They come into your country many times and if they can't find or secure employment, they're leaving. So you see, you, educate, you educate, you educate, and then they can't secure employment and they may go back to their home. So it's, it can be a loss on on the country, for example, if you lose a lot of international talent that you actually educate instead of keeping it here and you know, um, uh, yeah, because you already invested a lot, right? So again, just my theories.

Speaker 1: 45:07

No, I do agree on that point. And especially when it's a small country with a limited mentality in trying to employ so many talents in industry jobs, in that case, so many talents in industry jobs in that case probably has to do with the level of the market, of the industrial marketplace that they have. I don't know. Probably same in Portugal, for example, where they would need people for PhDs in medicine for a specific area. There's not a lot of funding for that, for that specific area again, I'm just theorizing here an approach as well. And they ended up going abroad, which is respectfully acceptable because also to improve the mindset, to improve the horizons, to bring more knowledge. And then when it comes back to the homeland, you're gonna to be rejected over some of these excuses, xyz. And sometimes it comes down to frustration over PhDs that they're trying to use that knowledge, use that mindset, whether academically or entrepreneurially, in this case, to thrive.

Speaker 2: 46:26

They still they become bashed down, unfortunately so are you saying, um, basically just so, so I can follow.

Speaker 1: 46:37

So when you, when you basically you're leaving your own country, you get education somewhere else, you may want to come back, but then you're not really At least I give an example of how Portuguese universities I don't know if that has improved, but from what they've told me when I was taking my undergrad saying, oh, they have this mentality, they don't want to move forward, they want to stick to the uh, they are accommodated after 10 years of service and they still, they don't want to leave. It's an instance okay, I see.

Speaker 2: 47:19

No, I have come across something similar.

Speaker 1: 47:25

Yes, I mean yeah, no, it's just an approach and a theoretical approach. But I do think as well that several universities and I give the example of Swansea University, where I'm still taking my phd that they they look for the, they look for the future in terms of entrepreneurship and they also help students to seek out jobs, how to think entrepreneurially, and they have an enterprise team to to pitch ideas for, for funding. And I wonder if, do you have knowledge of the, if there are those changes systematically to be practicing universities besides the one that I've gave the example?

Speaker 2: 48:15

no, to be honest, so I can, when you think about like um, let's say um, innovation offices or entrepreneurial programs, because I mean, the reality is and sorry, luis, it's, it's a helicopter out there. I'm so sorry, I'm sorry, there's a lot of helicopters in Sweden. Anyhow, luis, when it comes to the entrepreneurial side, I do believe, actually, that universities pay more and more attention to potential innovations coming out of PhD theses, because you know, the reality is most of us work on the forefront of knowledge creation, right?

Speaker 2: 49:02

So when you think about taking it and commercializing it in the next step, it's the next logical step. For many PhDs, however, they don't really know how to approach. How do you go from I have a discovery to in many cases, when you think in the medical field, right, so, in the medical field you may have a discovery, but on this discovery you need to get a patent so no one can actually steal your discovery. So then you can start talking about it. And it's a long process you may need to go through, and I guess it really depends in in which field you are. But if you think in the life sciences, in most cases I would say you, you need some sort of pattern. So it's it's a really complicated process that most PhDs on their own could never do.

Speaker 2: 49:49

So I do know of a lot of universities who have, like, innovation offices or support students in becoming an entrepreneur. So, for example, at Karinska Institute, they do have an innovation office. But you know, um, luis, for me, um, that was not the right fit when I went there, because my idea was slightly different, because I would think of myself. So what at Karolinska Institute is a medical university, so most of the innovation that comes out of this medical university is related to, let's say, um, for example, a molecule that could be a potential truck. So this is a very different process than what I do.

Speaker 2: 50:31

I have come up with an idea of building a platform to help phds transition, so I'm more in the educational technology space, and they're much more focused on something you call the deep tech space, because deep tech needs a lot of more investment in order to really uh, you need to study mechanisms, you may need to work with models that are really expensive, so I never really fitted that, but if I did, there is like a really great support and I can also tell you as an as another example here it's called kth is the engineering school in sweden, one of the engineering schools in Stockholm.

Speaker 2: 51:05

They have a fantastic innovation program for not only for PhDs but for all sorts of students, because of course, there also is a bit of different thing, because they have a lot of like, if you think about it, like a lot of computer science. So naturally, what you do have you have a lot of ideas that are based on data coding, so it's a bit of a different thing right, developing maybe a molecule over the next 20 years, versus I have an idea and I build a platform. So, but there is a lot. I do think there is a lot of support happening. It really depends on the university, though, I have to say.

Speaker 1: 51:43

I guess, and I agree on that point, it depends on the university, though I have to say I guess, and I agree on that point, it depends on the university as well, and probably the mentality of those entrepreneurial teams that they want to help the next talents to improve themselves but also to improve the whole nation, so to speak themselves but also to improve the whole nation, so to speak. But don't you think that, elena, your opinion on this, did you think that they are prioritizing more the scientific field than adding less value to, to art and humanities.

Speaker 2: 52:23

Oh, good question. Um, I, I, in my opinion, honestly I can't at all speak on. Uh, I mean, I, I've read on on linkedin that a lot of humanities programs are cut. Um, yeah, I mean, maybe you can talk. I I'm really not an expert to speak on it because I am from the life sciences. It's really a bit I live in that bubble also a little bit, but I can tell you because there are lots of phds from the life sciences. It's really a bit I live in that bubble also a little bit, but I can tell you, because there are lots of PhDs from the humanities on LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 52:48

I do know that in some universities or I have read about these things yes, yeah, they're cutting these departments. They don't think it's important enough. But maybe you can give us maybe a little bit more insight on what's the reality. And yeah, I don't know where it comes from. But maybe you can give us maybe a little bit more insight on what's the reality. And yeah, yeah, I don't know where it comes from. I guess it comes maybe from the. I really don't know.

Speaker 1: 53:13

Yeah no, but it was Trying to make a contrast. I can see that's more of a STEM aspect, but also the humanity side is also being sidetracked from most of the businesses, which I think is going to be less valuable. But I do wonder, because your business model probably uses a bit of more of a literacy style, which most of us humanities we write a lot.

Speaker 2: 53:43

Yeah, yeah, no, no, 100%. I mean, you know the thing is like when you build a business like mine. I mean you need to be good at a lot of things. Oh, you have to learn to be good at a lot of things, to be honest.

Speaker 1: 53:54

Yes.

Speaker 2: 53:56

But, to be perfectly honest, like my life science background in the business that I'm building didn't help me much, except for, you know, thinking through the lens of who I have become in the process of doing the PhD Like being comfortable with the uncomfortable, knowing how to solve problems, never giving up, like these are skills that I'm transferring from my PhD. Being comfortable with the uncomfortable, knowing how to solve problems, never giving up, like these are skills that I'm transferring from my PhD. Yeah, my subject matter has changed completely, but, like I take a lot of these skills into my new business adventure and they're actually indeed. I have to write a lot, you know, I think a lot about marketing. I do actually indeed a lot of like little studies which language works better with my audience? So I guess, yes, coming from a humanities, you know it's interesting.

Speaker 2: 54:54

I had a podcast guest the other day because I'm really not so familiar with the humanities, so it was so interesting for me to learn about the humanities Sorry, excuse me so and how they can actually be really like they have a really great skill set in industry because they are, for example, really good with he called it thick data, which is basically not. I don't know if you know that terminology. It was completely new to me slightly, slightly, not that much.

Speaker 1: 55:31

I can't delve into much TIC data, but mostly of building a few spreadsheets and writing chunks of text using different methods of the skim read and even a bit of AI in that sense, just to spot some redundancies or grammatical inconsistencies in that sense. So that's what I can relate myself to, that and other humanities as well.

Speaker 2: 55:57

Yeah, I think what he said and apologies if it's wrong for everyone in the humanities who is listening and thinking what the hell is she talking about? But I think what he said and apologies if it's wrong for everyone in the humanities who is listening and bringing what the hell is she talking about? But I think what he said is, like you can have a lot of like um, you know you can have, for example, data that tells you okay, he brought an example of um several. You have a higher, so you have they have. He worked for amazon prime and he talked about how they saw oh, no, sorry, that was when he worked for meta, sorry for facebook, and they saw that in brazil, um, they every account had a longer login time. So it was really so the people seem to be very, very active as compared to any other country.

Speaker 2: 56:39

So now the date this is what the data tells you. Right, you see in your data sheet, oh, brazil, these people seem to be active like 20 hours a day and you ask yourself how, versus in other countries you know, have, someone is active maybe for two hours. I don't exactly know how the data goes. But then the humanities, phds, they come in and now what they do is they take these. You have this data that you generated, but now you go in and you send.

Speaker 2: 57:07

For example, he was sent to brazil and they did actually go and see and talk to people to try to figure out, to make sense of the data, and what they actually observed is that in brazil, facebook account sharing was completely normal, so the data they picked up was actually not from one person, but actually from multiple users, and so this is what he said. I think, when it comes to these observational things, this is, for example, something where humanities PhDs can drive business value because they're used to these. Yeah, looking at data through a different lens, not only at the actual numbers, but you have an ability to look at it. I think he called it thick data, so I'm not sure if I'm making sense. Apologies to anyone out there from the humanities yeah, no, everything is absolutely fine.

Speaker 1: 58:02

Even as people from PhDs, from humanities, they always learn something new. We don't know anything and we end up updating ourselves, adapting to the situation. Even the tick data is one of those things. Creating databases for any analysis of, as I say, I say come from the background of art, history and archaeology using a database of, okay, what this object is, how can we just mark it? And explaining to the wider audience how it is, how it works, with, uh, appropriate language, as you said, using, as you said, on linkedin. You use a language that is fit for the audience, and so as do we for humanities, when they're not phd's in this sense yeah, I mean, I guess it's uh.

Speaker 2: 58:55

You need to adapt your language whenever you talk to a different audience. I think that's a, that's a very uh's, a very true, no matter where you go. I guess, whether you're on LinkedIn, or whether you're on your PhD and you talk to a student or you talk to a professor, it's a very like, a student has a different understanding of what you're doing, so you may want to adjust your language towards something more simple, versus if you talk with a subject matter expert who's deeply involved in the same theme. You can, of course, use very different language.

Speaker 1: 59:28

And speaking of language, now that we have the buzzword networking, that comes in because we also, oh, we want to connect, we want to connect. But nowadays the internet cultures say, oh, we have to network. And so that affects phds as well and also postdocs. I I dare to say as well that, uh, it is a great case study when seeing from seeing your posts and leveraging how phd networking can take many forms and that extended beyond in-person meetings but also online, whether we're attending a conference or participating in one, whether online or in person. But they have this kind of a phobia of networking, and I even attended one seminar.

Speaker 1: 1:00:16

Between the department where I'm studying, they say I hate networking. Between the department where I'm studying, they say I hate networking. Well, it is fair enough to say because it gets some. It becomes burdensome when receiving rejection after rejection and trying to network here, network there, spend a lot of money in that regard and they ended up finding it transactional and also exhausting, as as I said. So what leads phds elena to think like that and how do you help them through your business, to reframe their know-how to network when starting from zero online presence alongside other strategic connections? It's a long question, I know.

Speaker 2: 1:01:01

It's okay, luis, I mean first of all. Yes, I mean networking is a fast word, but it's I mean and it's probably one of the most misunderstood fast words, especially for PhDs, in a sense, what networking means, because you know, luis, coming back to your question, when people say I hate networking, next time ask them why do you hate networking? Like, why do you hate networking? And I think, luish, based on the experience, uh, in my work with phds, I do believe, um, that the, the hate or the feeling of it feels awkward or inauthentic or whatever PhDs used to describe networking that are not actually talking about networking, but a transactional ask. So when you listen to PhDs and when you hear how they talk about networking, they come to me and say but Elena, I reach out to a lot of people on LinkedIn and I sent them my CV and no one ever responds.

Speaker 2: 1:02:05

This is when I'm already thinking, yeah, this is not networking. It's not networking. Sending someone your CV asking for a favor is, by definition, a transactional ask. It's not networking. So networking in its core or at its core, is relationship building, luis. It's not at all about going out asking people for a favor, and this is what I think most well, not only PhDs. I think most people get wrong Because think of one scenario, luis if I reach out to you and ask you for something and you have no idea who I am, what's the likelihood that you will do this for me?

Speaker 1: 1:02:45

I instantly reject.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:48

I say no because I don't know you yeah but now think, like we have met like two years ago. Since then we've been talking, sometimes on LinkedIn. You think I'm a nice person, I comment on your post, we have discussions, we are aligned. And now I say, hey, luis, I see, actually at your university they have an open PhD position. Any you know, do you know anyone who would work in this group, or whatever? So because we already had a lot of, we have built rapport, we had conversations, I would at least get a response from you.

Speaker 2: 1:03:19

So, networking is at its core relationship building and relationship building. When you think about a relationship, a relationship is built on trust. And how do you develop trust? Trust is something you build over time, which makes networking a long-term game, and I think this is. You know, phds are often in a situation I need a job, I need to go out and network, and then they go out and send their cvs out and this is what they think is networking. No, no networking. You ideally start during your phd. You start building this network.

Speaker 2: 1:03:50

People say, when you start building your network, when you need it, it's too late because you can't. Um, how do you say you can't accelerate this process of building the trust? It's a consistent showing up and I'm not saying it takes two years, but you need to come to a point where you feel, okay, we have built a rapport. Now Maybe I see, okay, luis works at this company. Now I say, hey, luis, you know what? I just applied for this position. Do you happen to know someone? It's a different thing and this is what it is, and I think that's why it feels awkward for many PhD students. And the other thing is they say, oh, it's inauthentic. And I say why do. You think it's inauthentic and they feel like they have to go and comment on posts and talk about things they don't really believe in. And I say that's also not the point. So imagine a scenario where you find people work in a field that you're generally interested in. They speak about a challenge where you maybe have done your PhD in and you're generally excited, so you leave a comment because it's a genuine comment. You're participating in a discussion. So it's not about going out, finding people and leaving random comments and making stuff up. It's about identifying like-minded people and building a connection.

Speaker 2: 1:05:11

And also I would like to clarify networking is not only something that always happens in a very formal way. You know we think about networking, going to networking events, doing stuff yeah, going out on LinkedIn, and it's this formal thing. No, every interaction you have on LinkedIn formal way. You know we think about networking, going to networking events, doing stuff. Yeah, going out on linkedin, and it's this formal thing. No, every interaction you have on linkedin, I mean what we do is literally it's networking dming back and forth, I'm engaging with each other's content, it's networking.

Speaker 2: 1:05:34

So, um, and also sometimes I mean you, you go out and even if it doesn't feel like it. You may meet a friend's friend and this friend works in a company, but what you do? You don't look through a lens oh, maybe I can send this dude my CV one day. You just meet them on a personal level and you engage on a personal level and, honestly, sometimes you go to networking and events and the best conversations are not the ones where you talk about work. The best conversations are the ones when you come up and say oh, I really love cats, and then you have this connection. You know, just as an example, luis, and then you could immediately connect with the person just based on things you share, and this is you know.

Speaker 2: 1:06:11

And then you connect from LinkedIn and you never know, maybe this person works in a company where you want to work in. But the important thing is you know. I think of networking as planting a lot of seeds, a lot of seeds, a lot of seeds. Some of them will carry fruits one day and some won't. But with every interaction, with every engagement you have, you increase your lack surface area, as we like to say at Al Mamey. So, yeah, that was a very long answer why I think networking feels awkward, feels inauthentic. People hate it because they misunderstand what networking actually means.

Speaker 1: 1:06:50

And I also think it's about a matter of reinvention, because reinvention in the sense of okay, so how can I make a better approach into this? How can I learn from this? I think it's just the anxiety that when you finish your PhD, then I'll start networking, and I'll give you the example that I see lots of PhDs that on their profile pictures, say open, which is which is acceptable and not shaming them whatsoever, but gives me the impression that, okay, I'm looking for this, for this, for this, okay, what. What are you doing actually to make that thing happen? Are you using your own time effectively Because you know the one day has 23 hours and 59 minutes, not just 24.

Speaker 1: 1:07:42

But saying like that it has 24 hours, at least spend one hour, one hour and a half to interact with someone that really sparked your mind and after a few interactions or comments or checking some of the content, maybe you could approach. You could approach that person and say, hey, I'd love to make a virtual coffee with you. Can you have some 10 minutes to chat? I mean, not long ago I had, before I went to Portugal to present my paper at the conference. I spoke to Daria Levina and I mentioned you and say this would be a good fit for for you, daria, and you have your own business and now she's interacting with you. I've seen one of her comments in one of your posts.

Speaker 2: 1:08:31

There is a potential guest for your show yeah, this is, I mean to be honest no, but I think you summarized it really well because, at the end of the day, you I mean, if we're talking about networking, interaction with you know people you're interested in through the comments and then one day reach out and say, hey, let's have a chat.

Speaker 2: 1:09:07

I do it all the time with people and of course I honestly, luis, in the beginning I had chats with everyone when I started this business. Until I understood I can't chat with everyone who reaches out to me, because then I wouldn't do anything else than chatting with people. Now, now, you know, I get so many dms that I have to be selective, but you know what? The people that I feel like I have a relationship through the comments, which I will take the time and I will meet them. Yeah, it's so true because you, you know, you feel like they have invested in you and this is the whole thing when you reach out to someone. So now there is also. I just want to encourage people when you think about informational interviews, you don't always have to build that relationship in the comments, but if you reach out to someone cold, don't reach out and come in with your ask, reach out in a different way and show that you have invested time to get to know them.

Speaker 2: 1:10:02

So show them Talk about something in their background that resonated with you. Why are you reaching out to this person? Make them feel seen? Because nowadays she has invested time in me and understanding what is my background, so she really wants to talk to me. I'm not just another person she's reaching out to there is a real interest in, because she has invested time. Now I'm willing to invest time too. So this is the way it works.

Speaker 1: 1:10:30

if you invest and generally when you want something from someone, invest first yeah, yeah, and and you have also the phd, which takes three to four years or even a bit more, and there's also time for it for for to invest a bit an hour, uh online to post, to post bits of your content, or obviously carefully uh, and I say and I say carefully because it's because the thesis is not published yet, so but that's the thing. That's the thing the the day has 24 hours and you spend eight to nine hours to your research and if you work, as I also do, work part-time, you work four hours, or can you work eight, another eight hours, depending on how you juggle your time, and then what you have can start, uh, update yourself, and that's in that regards, and even doing this I know and I will say I mean I will say something that is very unpopular, luish, but we all I mean, as you just said, we all have 24 hours.

Speaker 2: 1:11:31

So at the end of the day, when people tell me they don't have time, I can only tell you one thing it's a matter of priority because, just like you and me, we all have 24 hours, and how you spend your time's a matter of priority because, just like you and me, we all have 24 hours, and how you spend your time is a matter of what you prioritize.

Speaker 2: 1:11:46

So we all have time to invest a little bit into building these relationships. If it's a priority and this is the thing it's about you need to be proactive and you actively need to set aside time if you think that this is something that is important to you. Just like, think about all the other things that you do with these other hours that you have. Why do you have time for them? Because you make them a priority. We all have tons of things to do. Why do you choose to do one thing over the other? So maybe it's not important enough, but just what I want to say is I want to kind of reframe sometimes this statement of I don't have time, it's not true, and you said also being proactive, which is a massive skill, and working all around being nonstop.

Speaker 1: 1:12:37

Obviously, there will be times that people will feel overwhelmed. We all suffer from that, even during our our PhDs, when writing our dissertations. But I I wonder if is proactive something that industry leaders seek out on most PhDs and it would is it something that PhDs undervalue or underdevelop that skill?

Speaker 2: 1:13:04

Good question. So, generally, I do believe proactivity is always a good thing and I can only see that being proactive, coming know up with maybe different solutions, thinking about different ways of doing it um, I do believe it's a hundred percent a uh great skill to have. Um, and I guess every employer would value um. Is it something phds should practice more? You know, I do believe that a lot of phds are proactive, but maybe in different areas of their life. I mean, I think everyone can be proactive, depending on what it is that matters to them. I would say you know so if you're. I mean, yeah, I'm not sure what I'm, what I'm trying to get at right now, luiz, but um, yeah, so in so, in alma me, what skill would you require if you were hiring a PhD?

Speaker 2: 1:14:24

Okay, I mean, Luis, I personally you know what I really care about a person's, if a person is interested in the mission, because this is critically important, because if you have an alignment with my mission and my vision, I don't need to motivate you. You have usually this inherent or this inner motivation to wanting to contribute. But, as you said, for one of the most valuable skills indeed would be to, if I hired someone, I would hire someone who has this I say it now with this word get shit done mentality. You know.

Speaker 1: 1:15:13

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:15:14

I go out, I get stuff done and I'm not afraid of failing. But we need to test things in order to move forward. So failure is a critical part of success. So for me, in order to know what works and what doesn't, I have to test. It's a little bit like running an experiment, right, luis? You run an experiment. So when you know I guess we do different experiments in the life sciences but we set up our experiment. Let's say, we come up with a protocol, we run the protocol. It doesn't work, so we start tweaking. But in order to arrive at a place when this thing works, I had to do all of these other things that don't work. So failure is part of success. No one who is successful has not failed.

Speaker 2: 1:16:04

So I don't know why people always try to avoid failure, because it's literally. I mean, if you think about it, how many times did you maybe? I mean, you can't maybe define it as a failure, but when you started this podcast, you have done things, probably in the beginning, that have taught you how not to do it, and then you learned how to do it. So in order to run this successful podcast that you do right now, I'm pretty sure you have gone through some iterations of where things didn't work and you have learned and built on these learnings and now you have a podcast that is, you know, just has been uh, nominated for um.

Speaker 1: 1:16:39

This maybe I'm not supposed to talk about it million, millions podcasts, so it was caught. I was caught by surprise by that, but, uh, as I said, I had a pilot video before and obviously I used this, uh, a software called shortcut. It was really difficult for me, but then I made it. Uh, I made it done, I made it the video, but now I'm using cap cut and now, with this, the wet, it's a, it's a. It's a software that is even more simpler than more simple than ever, and I've I've just released a video of my stay in coimbra, uh, in images and video for a while, and it was so amazing. But, uh, I appreciate it, I appreciate the gesture, appreciate the compliments, but, as you said, is to get shit done, as you said, and I mean and also that as a PhD, we are drawn to that it might be taking some time for ourselves hearing our supervisors to get shit done.

Speaker 2: 1:17:42

They're asking you to get stuff done yeah, and you know, like um luish, having done a phd myself running this business, our business doesn't require deep subject matter domain expertise.

Speaker 2: 1:17:58

So, for example, when you move into pharma, they often expect you to have a very deep understanding, for example, of you know the biology or molecular biology.

Speaker 2: 1:18:08

So if I was a company yes, which I am or if I had a company who needed to hire someone who doesn't need necessarily the exact same subject matter expertise to believe me, I would take a phd, because I know that phds have this get shit done mentality. And if I could do like and if I could bring one message out to employers and, um, you know, employers that are hesitant over um, hiring phds um, well, where I work, like what I do with my work, most people can learn that, but I can't teach attitude. I can't teach attitude. You either come in and you're motivated and you have a drive, and I just believe that I have seen a lot of PhDs. They have a high tolerance towards you know, when they encounter failure, they keep going, they stay curious, they want to solve problems and for me, these are extremely good qualities, honestly. So, yeah, I mean sure, if you need someone who knows, if you need someone who needs you know certain coding skills and has to be familiar with certain, maybe programs and softwares.

Speaker 2: 1:19:33

Yes, of course you need to have the basis, but otherwise I think PhDs are great hires, I have to say, and of course, there are some people now I can already hear them saying but not every PhD is like this. No, exactly, it's like with everything else, there is a distribution of people. Right, like you have the distribution, a normal distribution. You will have people in the middle, you will have people on each extreme, and it's normal. But I think, in general, in order to get for a phd, you need to have a certain, you know, I want to say amount of grit to get through, and uh, yeah, grit is something, uh, especially in a startup um scenario, I think is super appreciated or wanted People who just don't give up, who find solutions, you know, to problems.

Speaker 1: 1:20:28

Yeah, and I think it all draws to that, to how a PhD actually works and then what you're going to do with it afterwards. So you have this you have the skills that are transferable, uh, which you got it acquired from your well learned from your undergrad, and then passing through the masters or whether, as I'm a taught or m res and also going to a PhD, you get to set more of skills that you must use it in order to get things done.

Speaker 2: 1:21:05

Essentially, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 1:21:07

I mean, in order to finish a PhD thesis, you need to get things done, and I think a lot of PhDs they can't recognize the skills they have, and they can't because, you know, know, when you're in academia, everyone looks the same. Luis, we all do the same. It's really difficult, it's like every it's like just another fish in the pond. But you know, when you go out of that actually environment, then you realize, actually not everyone is the same and certain things that you do have are actually considered a skill outside of this bubble because not everyone possesses it.

Speaker 2: 1:21:46

So, and I think that's that's a big chunk of the work that we do to help phds see and understand the, the skills they actually bring to the table and at which, at which rate, I mean, we had someone coming to us, she works with us now and you need to imagine, luis, she got rejection over rejection and Angela looked at her and said yeah, because with your experience, you're applying for positions that are too junior. You need to aim higher. People think you're too. So it's a bit about really understanding where you fit and the depth of skill that you have developed. So, yeah, it's really difficult if everyone looks the same because you don't recognize it as a skill, but just as something everyone has. But when you leave this environment, it's different it is.

Speaker 1: 1:22:43

It is different, and they they've talked to me about a lot, a lot of stuff. And then all doing this after your phd, what you're gonna do, what you see yourself in five years, all those traditional things and say, okay, let me think first, step by step, I'll put my virtual magic port soon and then, and then we'll talk about that. And uh, yeah, I mean things, things when doing a phd, I think there's a lot of opportunities come coming and I believe that you have to grasp any opportunity that you can can that you can have and think about not just aiming higher, but also thinking about of, okay, what, what things you don't want to do I think it's a very good strategy to, because you know, luigi, when you ask most people what you want to do, is very difficult for people to answer.

Speaker 2: 1:23:36

But it is they often know what they don't want to do, which is interesting. So it can sometimes be. If you're completely lost of what you want to do, start with the things you don't want to do, but also to find an answer to what you want to do. You may want to expose yourself to different things people do in order to understand what's out there, and then you listen to it and it's so because, I mean, this is how I found my way. The more conversations you have with people who work in, for example, a certain job, you can go like, oh, I really like this aspect, but I don't like this aspect. And the more conversations you have, the more clarity you will get. So I always like to talk to PhDs and say you usually don't wake up and you think, oh, this is what I want to do with my life. It's a process and it's a proactive process.

Speaker 2: 1:24:27

Coming back to the productivity, because no one you know, people come to me and say, elena, what can I do with my degree? And I'm thinking you can do a lot of things. What do you enjoy doing? What do you want to do? Because we're all different. I can't speak on your behalf. What do you want to do so. It's like start with yourself and, to be clear, you may want, you may have an interest, uh, and you may not get there directly from your phd. You may need to take a little detour because maybe the position you're aiming for you're not 100% qualified when you just enter business. So maybe you already need to be in a company, gain a little bit of business-specific experience and then move into that position. So it's not always necessarily a straight path. I set this to my mind. I want to be working in positions x, y, z if it's competitive to get into.

Speaker 2: 1:25:28

maybe you may need to take a different turn to learn this business specific knowledge and then go to the, so saying just kind of taking this with a little bit of a grain of salt, saying you can do anything. Yes, you can in theory. Sometimes you will need to have a little bit of business experience in order to move there, but in reality, it's about understanding who you are. And also, the first position doesn't need to be the perfect one. It's not going to define your entire career. So when you move out of academia, you may go into a position, and it's not like defining your entire career. So also allow yourself to explore if you want to.

Speaker 1: 1:26:10

Yes, skills, and then research the businesses that you are keen to apply, and even talking with the, the ceo, or even the person that is proximate to to ceo, and etc.

Speaker 2: 1:26:32

So, yeah, I mean, depending on how big the company is, I would probably say don't aim straight for the ceo, because that might not go well, or you did. That's actually one of the one, one of the cases where you may feel like I'm getting rejected if you, of course, aim too high, and you know, sometimes it works well to go. You start at the bottom and then you work your way up, rather than the other way around, because generally it's easier to get in touch with people that are not as busy. But, yeah, if you I I mean small companies, absolutely I mean it's usually, um, yeah, different, a little bit different in terms of dynamics so how did you, um, you and angela, uh, meet up?

Speaker 1: 1:27:14

obviously online, but then how does it, how did it build your rapport in order to build then AlmaMii and then the trust method?

Speaker 2: 1:27:24

Well, luis, it's a very good question. So Angela and I, as you said, obviously met online, because Angela is located in Denver in Colorado, in the US. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I'm like in Stockholm in Sweden. So we met through LinkedIn, luis, it's not?

Speaker 1: 1:27:40

a joke.

Speaker 2: 1:27:42

Through Common Connection, we actually had talked to her and talked to me, and he thought we would be a great match, which indeed we were. And, honestly, in the beginning we just got to know each other and I think we vibed quite well. But what we did? We just started giving free sessions on LinkedIn for PhD students. So you know, luis, when I met Angela, angela has a very deep expertise in, basically in the operational space. So she has always worked on the people side of businesses. So what she has done is like she for the last 20, well, she has been in business for over 25 years, but for the last 20 years she has spent on building high performing teams in industry and implementing hiring processes like from startup to be corporate, from tech to insurance. So this is what she did, so she really understands what, like how the hiring process looks, um, on a very nuanced level, like I would actually say few people do. Uh, and I have the academic experience. We're like you know what? Let's do something together for academics.

Speaker 2: 1:28:56

And we did these three sessions on LinkedIn and you know we realized at this time there was no plan to build a business together. But what we did realize was actually that when we gave free sessions for example, how to write a non-academic CV they had the same questions over and over and it was the same mistakes that were done over and over. So we were like, you know what, why don't we build a solution, um, for phds? And it took us some time. So we started the company, actually in 2024 together, and since then a lot has happened. Honestly, like um, we're we're working with universities, but we're also working with individuals who need help in the transition. Um, and yeah, this is basically how we met and, uh, yeah, and then how?

Speaker 1: 1:29:48

then coming not not asking secret business secrets whatsoever, but but uh, just the trust method was something that was already was under development or that took some time to work it out.

Speaker 2: 1:30:03

The trust is not necessarily a method, but it's kind of like the acronyms for our values in the company. So what I think you may refer to is maybe the job accelerator program that we're acting. I'm not sure you're referring to this, but this is a program that we're running for PhD students where we help them land jobs in industry, and it's an end-to-end program. So they come to us and they work with us until they sign a contract and they pay us the day they sign a contract. So it's I don't want to say zero risk, but it's like if you don't have a job, you don't pay us and vice versa. But of course there is. You know, we deliver on our side and the PhD delivers on their side. And then, um yeah, we help them get into jobs by teaching them how to market themselves differently, because this is most often the case.

Speaker 2: 1:30:58

We have PhDs. They come to us at all sorts of different stages. I mean, we work with freshly graduated PhDs, we work with postdocs, we work with associate professors, so they come to us at all stages and it most of the time goes back to the same thing. It's how do I market my skills to non-academic employers? Because if you don't use the right language, and if you don't know how to translate your skills um into a language that your target audience understands, you may get rejection over rejection.

Speaker 1: 1:31:34

Okay, so it sounds an interesting business approach. And then did you have any success case stories of?

Speaker 2: 1:31:41

yeah, we had several people going through the program successfully. We started the program beginning of the year, so it's fairly young, and we really developed it, uh, throughout that time. But we had. You know, it's like the interesting thing is because we all do have the skills, and I think that's the important thing. Phds do have the skills. You just need to help them, to reframe them for a new audience.

Speaker 2: 1:32:08

And when you train them on how to speak, not only in your CVs and resume, but also in an interview setting, we train them on how to show up in the interview. Yeah, it's all part of the service, louis. So they come, we do everything with them, like when they have interviews, we sit with them, we train them, we talk through their concerns, we um, we help them to to present themselves through the lens of what an industry employer values, um. So, yeah, we had several successful cases and, like, I think our most successful case was just as an example. I mean, he walked in and at the end of the day he got the in his dream position at a fortune 500 company and on top of that he got 75 percent more salary than he expected and the whole.

Speaker 1: 1:32:57

Thing happened in three months in three months from that's a record time starting till the end.

Speaker 2: 1:33:06

Yeah, well, we had actually someone going through even quicker. She got a job at sanofi, which is a big pharma company. Um, and I mean, yeah, it's um, there was another success story. I, I do believe, when you, the market is rough right now, it's rough for everyone, so it's um, there was another success story. I do believe. When you the market is rough right now, it's rough for everyone. So it's not only for PhDs, it's it's rough for everyone. But there is still hiring happening and you know, if you know how to present yourself, it's not easy. It's not easy. It doesn't become easy, but it becomes even more difficult if you don't use the right language. No-transcript, that's what really is a game changer, because often there is a disconnect between what the PhD is saying and what the recruiter is understanding, not the same language. So it's like when you talk to me Portuguese, I won't understand, yeah, but you know when you think of it, this is exactly what's happening, because we use different language for the same thing.

Speaker 1: 1:34:16

I think it also happens with, as you said, the PhD language and the business English language. There's always a clash on that and many of us PhDs aren't well prepared to jump out to the industry world and then trying to use what type of language? Even reading the, the job description. Sometimes we fail upon that and we resort to other shortcuts, like ai, and we fail at being how to be ats friendlies whatsoever. There's a lot of resources on that, and specifically yours, and I think it's just sometimes having that goes. Again, to be proactive, obviously it is a burden to write so many cvs and then sending out and not not sending the same one, because sending the same one it's easy going, but then you get it up to reject and after rejection and not just adapt, to adapt to the model of what the industry, the industry leader, is actually seeking on a phd luish, I mean I couldn't agree with you and I mean the thing is like that you're talking about, like adapting your CV.

Speaker 2: 1:35:24

I mean it's about. I mean, what we do in our program is really teaching a strategy on how you can adapt your CV within 15 to 20 minutes, Because if you spend more time, you're going to burn out in the process. So, in order to send out a relatively high volume per month because the market is tough, you need to just reach out to a lot of, a lot of employers, or you need to apply for many positions, same targeted positions. So don't yes, just do the spray and pray approach. If you have a targeted position, so this is where you can adapt the cb relatively quickly. So what we teach in our program, luish, every one of our candidates applies for max two different roles. That's it. Because think of one thing, luish so you're an employer and you're looking to hire someone for, okay, marketing, whatever, it doesn't matter like a marketing position.

Speaker 1: 1:36:28

Yes.

Speaker 2: 1:36:29

So maybe that's not a good example. Let's take something that is actually a bit more applicable, maybe, to a scientist. I mean, marketing is, but they don't necessarily have the the right marketing skills always. But think about you want to be a research scientist, you want to do science in a pharma company or wherever um? You want to align your entire linkedin profile showing research scientists. So you really want to talk mostly about the experience that is relevant for this sort of role, because what it does. Then you take your CV, you align it to this one or two positions and your LinkedIn will tell the same story. So now, when I, as an employer, for example, I go Luiz on your LinkedIn, it will tell me the same story. So now, when I, as an employer, for example, I go Luiz on your LinkedIn, it will tell me the same story.

Speaker 2: 1:37:25

So, in order to tell a coherent story, what you want to do, if you apply for 10 different positions, like sales, maybe you know, like, if you apply for all these different positions that might be out there, what is the story that you're going to tell? Because there is no one red threat to the position. So because, let's say, if you wanted to move into sales or marketing. You may want to emphasize a different um, or you may want to pull out different skills that are relevant for this position versus research scientists. So, in order to be able to emphasize these skills that are relevant for these positions, you yeah, you can't be too too too broad and too many different positions, because there is no story to be told. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but what I'm trying to say is strategy is important, so it's not only just going applying, adjusting your resume, it's also RCV. There is a lot of strategy that can help you be more successful and no one teaches you ever.

Speaker 2: 1:38:35

You know, this is the thing. That's what the trial and error. You just go rejection, rejection, rejection, and that's really, really frustrating and, yeah, it's something that for me, it's disheartening to see that a lot my skills and the way I talk about my experience that doesn't resonate with the employer. What they hear is rejection, rejection, rejection. And because they can only make sense for what makes sense for them, and it's often like oh, maybe you know my skills are not wanted in industry, or I'm not good enough, or I need to upskill, or I need to do X, y, z, which sometimes yes, if you want to move in a certain direction.

Speaker 2: 1:39:28

Sometimes, if you want to be a project manager, getting a PMP, like a project management certificate, can be helpful, because you know a lot of people think project management is managing schedules. As you may know, now it's not only managing schedules. There's actually a real skill behind. So you know different methods waterfall method or agile and so on. So if you have these things, when you can talk about these things, of course this is going to be helpful.

Speaker 1: 1:39:54

Yes, yeah, and again, it takes time. It takes time Even if you work. Even you can use the funding that you have and use it to take an extra course. On LinkedIn, for example, there's free courses on project management, data analyst, python method, basic AI free courses, and they get certificates, which I think there's some employers that they also seek people who have been actively taking courses, whether on LinkedIn, for free or Udemy, and this one PMP.

Speaker 2: 1:40:32

You know, luiz, I think you're saying something really important, so it's not but it's not only about the skill you're learning, but think of one thing now if you, luis, have taken a lot of skills on project management, you are de-risking my process. So hiring someone who comes fresh, yeah, I will explain. So hiring someone who comes freshly out of academia, there is a high chance they don't know what they want. So someone, someone who has taken yeah, because you could do anything right, you could move into project management. You could be a research scientist because you haven't seen anything in business. You may go out and do the spray and pray approach.

Speaker 2: 1:41:10

But now Luis comes and he applies and he has done all these PMP like project management certificates. You show me clearly that this is a direction you want to go into. So you didn't just end up on this pile of applications because you didn't know what else you want to do. You showed a clear sign of direction. So, beyond the skills that you're getting, I can see you invested in a direction of becoming a project manager because you know it's really um and I've learned all of this from angela um is really risk.

Speaker 2: 1:41:43

Uh, hiring is a is a risky process. So you try to de-risk and in order to de-risk, one of the things is really I. I talked to another hiring manager, actually at a panel in in vienna the other day and he said, if I can see a sign that you have done an internship in that area, it's not necessarily about the skills but it's about the direction, that you understand what you want to do with life. Because this means if you come here and you're dedicated and decided you want to be a project manager, likelihood that you will stay and develop is much higher than you realize after half a year.

Speaker 2: 1:42:19

I actually don't like project management, you know yes, this is the thing, and with a fresh, fresh, freshly graduated person you can never know will they just come in and discover in half a year I actually don't like this. Then you have to hire someone new and hiring is expensive. When you talk to hiring teams, it's not their favorite thing to do, um, so you know. That's why I think beyond, like looking the skills and courses I I think for me would be a clear sign that you have, that you have set your direction onto something and I think that, as again we were talking previously, the phd degree has changed.

Speaker 1: 1:43:00

Yeah, and not just completing the thesis, but also seeking beyond the research and meetings with your advisors. And so I think, as long as we apply to ourselves and reinvent ourselves, I think that the things will be better. And also eliminating the words I hate networking out of our brain, cerebral dictionary.

Speaker 2: 1:43:27

Luis, 100%, 100%. Honestly, I do believe if a lot of PhDs would get a different connection and intro to what networking is, I think they would actually think differently about it. So, um, it's all about what you think and what you associate with the word, and for most people they have negative associations. It's not something they think of. Oh, this is a cool thing to do and I can get to meet like-minded people and you can actually, you know, bounce ideas around, you can talk, it's like, you can find community through networking, like it's really. It's just, yeah, I mean, but it's really you, you, you, uh, yeah, you just have to think about it in in different ways, instead of thinking, oh, networking is going out asking people, sending my cv and hoping they will, uh, respond, and then, of course, your conclusion is but no one ever responds. Yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised. It's what you would expect if you just go out and send out your cvs, yeah, so that's.

Speaker 2: 1:44:31

It's a matter of improving it's also something we need to learn, and it's's something to be honest, luiz, I mean. It's not that I was aware about this either. You know, I had no idea how to think about networking myself. It's something I've learned and taught myself somehow.

Speaker 1: 1:44:53

So, yeah, you made a post, a poll, about your podcast, your PhD, post-phd directions, yeah, and then how can you juggle it with your time of doing a podcast inviting great guests and also your business?

Speaker 2: 1:45:20

Honestly, I cannot always juggle it. I think that's the honest, human answer. Well, for me, the podcast, or for us the podcast, is part of the business, right? So it's not an activity that I only do, as me, elena, it's part of the entire business mission. Yes, but of course, course, for example, during the summer, I had a lot of other things to do, or just right before the summer that were more urgent, that would actually drive um business value right versus the podcast is something it's really important, but it doesn't. I mean, if you think about priorities within a business, it's not the highest priority to always get done. So, indeed, I do struggle with it sometimes because it's relatively low on the priority list. So if other things come up within the business that are more important, then I will follow these things.

Speaker 2: 1:46:17

But with this being said, to be honest, when I started the podcast, I was very you know, I had many times I had this feeling of you when you do it, you have to release one every week and you have to be very consistent. And, yes, I agree, I agree. In an ideal world, this is what I would do, luise, but yes, I also give myself praise and I say we have a. We're a small startup. We're growing, so we're we're um. Now our team is actually increasing in size, so this means I can slowly start handing off tasks. But when you start something and you do everything, you have to give yourself a little bit of grace, and sometimes things just don't go as you expect them to go. And I think it's important to, because, yes, of course, I could always fit it in to invite another guest to edit the podcast, but at what expense, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:47:09

For me, I want to build this business in a sustainable way, which means, literally, I don't want to work 24 hours because it's not sustainable. This will lead into burnout. You can be as passionate about whatever you want to do. If you just work, work, work. Even this thing that you're so passionate about may not feel as great anymore.

Speaker 2: 1:47:27

And I don't want to get to a point where I feel like this business is not fun anymore, because the whole reason why I started and why I do what I do is because I love what I do. I love the freedom this business gives me. So why would I put myself in a prison now, luis, by telling myself this is exactly how I need to do it, and if you don't do it like this, you're failing. So right now, I give myself praise that I do this podcast and, yes, even though I don't always release a podcast episode every week, it still provides value. And yeah, I mean, obviously it would be. I mean I don't need to tell you. I mean you do a podcast yourself and you know how it is. It's great when people can anticipate and know.

Speaker 2: 1:48:11

Every Tuesday, luis is releasing his podcast or whatever, but it's for a few people like Andrew Huberman, one of my favorite podcasters I don't know if you know him Well, it's his business now. This is how he makes money. I'm not Andrew Huberman, so you know. So it's all about priorities. For him, it's a big priority, I guess, to get two episodes out a week, because guess what? He has paid ads in there. I guess he lives out of this. I mean, he declares now in the beginning of his podcast he's still associated to Stanford but he's not actively pursuing so much research anymore and he talks honestly and openly about it that this podcast is what he pursues, which I totally love, because I love how he makes science accessible to a broader audience. But you know, for him, if this is what you do for a living, you will make sure you get your podcast episodes out.

Speaker 2: 1:49:03

You get your podcast episodes out.

Speaker 1: 1:49:04

Exactly as you said.

Speaker 1: 1:49:06

It is about the priorities, and I'd say the same thing to me.

Speaker 1: 1:49:10

I haven't released a session for almost five months and your talk with me will be released in August, and so what I'm prioritizing more is now my internship, and then I get the Viva, and then probably I'm going to have I'm going to more than likely to have corrections, because I've spotted already some and then trying to look out for the job while doing this, because this is something that I want to do for fun. Obviously, if I earn some cash on it, that's fine, but I it takes time for writing, it takes time to research, it takes time to correct the English because it senses my second language and how to market it. It's not easy, it's not an easy thing and I just do it like let's just say occasionally in this sense, because of other things that I have to prioritize, but I hope to get the same as your business, all of me that we want to make a shout out to the persons, to the PhDs, that they want to thrive in the industry world unless they want to go into academia, which is also a valid ambition.

Speaker 2: 1:50:27

Yeah, 100%. I mean, you know, there is something for everyone. I mean, some people would love to stay in academia and they can't because there is not enough space.

Speaker 2: 1:50:35

So it's really and I think you made a very important point. I mean, you know, as you said, you haven't published anything for five months because it wasn't your priority at the moment, and I think it's important, especially when it's a side thing that you do and it should be fun, right, it shouldn't add an additional burden. Um, and importantly, luis, you develop a lot of skills in the process of exactly. It's like skills learned.

Speaker 2: 1:51:02

I mean honestly, like when I think about when I started my own podcast. Just listening to yourself, you become so much more self-aware how you communicate. I mean for me it is.

Speaker 2: 1:51:12

And I know I have certain things that I say all the time. I say you know a lot, so you really it helps you to become a better communicator. You learn how to edit things. You know a lot, so you really it helps you to become a better communicator. You learn how to edit things, so there are lots of skills. Just running a podcast, publishing it, knowing how to do something that resonates with an audience the marketing. So it's great that you're already doing this during your PhD. So when you go out and you look into a certain direction for a job, remember that you have those skills too.

Speaker 1: 1:51:42

Yeah. So if you could go back in time and you could send a piece of actionable career strategy to the PhD, elena Working on her thesis, what that would be and knowing what you know already.

Speaker 2: 1:52:02

While I worked on her thesis, what that would be and knowing what you know already.

Speaker 1: 1:52:04

While I worked on my thesis. Yes, while you worked on your thesis.

Speaker 2: 1:52:08

But you mean the actual book or the Everything that you've done so far?

Speaker 1: 1:52:13

And if you could go back in time and speak to the Elena who was writing her PhD, what would you say to her?

Speaker 2: 1:52:22

Honestly, I would say it's not so much about the publications, it's not so much about the piece you write, but it's all about who you become in the process as a person and who you develop into, because this is something that will stay with you for life, luish few people will read my thesis.

Speaker 2: 1:52:47

Believe me, this is just the reality for most people. But the skills that you learn, like what we talked about problem solving, grit, um, going out being comfortable and uncomfortable, going out talking in front of I don't know how many hundred people like they're all experts and you just stand there and you feel like an imposter. Going through all of these things, you grow so much so you walk out as a different person and I think that's the real value of a PhD who you've become in the process.

Speaker 2: 1:53:23

So, shifting my focus away from publications and a thesis towards the skills and the growth you experience while going through, I think this would be, my advice for current PhDs to look at it through this lens and, of course, while you do your research, look left and right, because we're often so focused in this tunnel that we never look left and right. Go out, be part of different organizations, contribute, contribute. See what excites you, see what. What is um fun.

Speaker 1: 1:54:05

This would be my, my best advice, um and it's a great advice and I also will take that into consideration. And, uh, and I do ask you as well if the ph PhD will be the degree of the future honestly, um, obviously, is my own opinion right?

Speaker 2: 1:54:26

um, yes, uh, I don't believe so. Um, I do believe a PhD has great value beyond academia, 100%. As you know, this is the work.

Speaker 2: 1:54:39

I do but I also do believe, when you look in newer emerging industries such as tech, if you know how to code, it doesn't really matter how you got there. If you're able to deliver, you're able to deliver. Do I care if you got a degree from Yale? No, so I wouldn't say it's the degree of the future, but I would definitely say it's a degree that I hope will stick around. I hope it will develop a little bit and adapt to the needs of what industry needs, because the reality is many PhDs will leave academia, leave academia. So adjusting the degree a little bit to make it fit more towards the destination where most of us go, I think would be um, would be really, really good um, not only for the individual but also for society and for the company. So they would actually feel like this is, you know, when I hire this person, it's more of a is a better hire because of X, y, z, maybe I already understand a little bit about the business mindset versus coming with a completely academic mindset. So I hope that we can evolve the degree and think about what could the future of a PhD degree look like? Because, to be honest, luis, lots of people, and it's a very interesting discussion that I would really love to have on LinkedIn one day and maybe you just inspired me to write about it tomorrow is do you, if you do a PhD, if you do a master's and then go directly into industry for five years, or if you do a PhD, will you acquire different skill sets? So my opinion is absolutely yes.

Speaker 2: 1:56:29

I do not believe that if you go into industry, that you will walk out with the same crit, with the same um. I don't want to say resilience, but you know, managing, taking a project from beginning to the end and managing all the things as a part of this project. Like, I have this amazing pie chart on what you do, from making your own graphics to writing, to presenting, to analyzing, conducting, reading. Like I don't think there is anything we don't really do, and I'm not sure any job can give you such a broad exposure. This is so I would love to have this discussion, because you know there are lots of people that they say why would I do a phd? I can go to industry and learn the same in five years. I don't know, luish, I don't know what you, what, what your, what your opinion is, but it would be a very interesting discussion to have what people think and I think I would.

Speaker 1: 1:57:36

I've, I've written down the question and I think that would be an insightful question to ask for one of my individual sessions in the foreseeable future, because I was thinking about to write about what a PhD actually means, even being myself as a PhD candidate who hasn't got the award, the graduation award, yet. But I think it is something that it takes more beyond of what we've been all doing so far, but still it is. It is difficult to make a proper answer because there's no right, no wrong answer and there's no definitive answer for it. It's just a set of ideas and doing what? What will you acquire? The of different skill sets? As, as you said, it takes more. It takes more than one just answer and I think the linkedin posts, the LinkedIn posts, my idea of doing this and giving my own personal take, it is, it has more. As I say, it goes more beyond the tip of the iceberg it is under 100% sorry.

Speaker 2: 1:58:53

I had to mute myself because there is a cat meowing in the background. Maybe I should have closed my windows, but I totally agree with you there is no one one easy answer to this. Um and I guess it's a a discussion what could happen? This is again coming back to.

Speaker 1: 1:59:09

Linkedin is a great platform to hear different experiences, different opinions, so yeah, and let's wrap this up, and I like to to ask you if you have any upcoming projects where to follow you besides your LinkedIn.

Speaker 2: 1:59:28

Yeah, luis, actually very good question. Um, well, honestly, my right now, I mean, obviously we have the. The podcast is a good, good way to stay connected and hear what uh learn a lot about um, how to market yourself as a PhD, what can you do with a PhD? So, post PhD directions on Spotify, but also YouTube, uh, of course, and one of the upcoming projects really that I do have is to expand to YouTube and create like kind of daily insights, uh like short form videos, um for PhD. So this is a new project, um that I'm currently um in the, in the planning or in the making. So, um, yeah, I guess, uh, stay tuned. I mean, I guess when you release this episode, I can already give you a link to to the YouTube page. So, yeah, I think YouTube may be a good thing.

Speaker 2: 2:00:22

I'm also on Instagram. I'm not very active on Instagram I'm still Ellie the Scientist there, but yeah, I still I do have a TikTok account. I don't know, but it's also nothing I really use. I just made at some point, but yeah, it's no, I think the real, really the best way is LinkedIn or YouTube in this case, or the podcast, and, of course, we have a newsletter if you want to get some weekly insights. I think that's another good way to stay connected with me, or my me, yeah.

Speaker 1: 2:00:54

And I'd say that with that, we we definitely wrap up. So, elena, thank you for your time, we definitely wrap up. So, helena, thank you for your time, and also thank you for sending me a message that you wanted to become my guest, and otherwise I would do it the other way around as well, until I would get some sufficient episodes. But you've done your part and I really thank you for this amazing time. And let's keep ourselves updated.

Speaker 2: 2:01:28

Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Luiz, for a very nice conversation. I hope we're going to inspire someone out there. I mean right, no, I mean.

Speaker 1: 2:01:35

I'm definitely confident to say that I'm glad Thank thank you.

Speaker 1: 2:01:43

Thank you so much, and this is a wrap-up of an amazing late night talk with elena hofer, who spoke a bit about her phd experience, how she increased her awareness and outreach on linkedin to get more than 100k followers, the difficulties of PhDs facing the job market and their uncertainty of picking up the jobs that may fulfill their lives and the skills that employers expect from them. Elena also shared how Alma Me began and how she's helping many PhDs to jump into the job market with their degrees and skills, something that she spoke with passion and willingness to help those who feel uncertain after taking a PhD or even after the postdoc. And what skills can you bring to industry jobs after your degrees? You bring to industry jobs after your degrees. Last but not least, elena shared her experience in having the PhD Post Directions podcast when inviting guests who are industry leaders, employers and employees to talk about the usefulness of PhDs outside academia. All Elena's LinkedIn, almame and her podcast Post PhD Directions will. All Elena's LinkedIn Oma Mi and her podcast Post PhD Directions will be on the show notes and I want to thank you for your time in tuning in to this incredible late night talk.

Speaker 1: 2:03:12

More late night talks are coming soon and since I'm preparing myself for the Viva Voke, you can tune into other ones and solo sessions I've done previously, as well as mine with Elena, on your favorite podcast platforms Spotify, apple Podcasts and many more. You can also follow my podcast work on Instagram at phdlmf, linkedin, by typing my name, luiz Maia, and my website, phdloungecouk. Lastly, if you're a current PhD postdoc or a PhD who undertook the degree a long time ago and would like to share your experience, you can either send me an email at luizphdlounge at gmailcom or DM me on LinkedIn or Instagram. Thank you,