Late-Night Talk: Ewelina Kurtys, PhD. FinalSpark and Biocomputing

Students and Graduates!

Ewelina Kurtys is a PhD in neuroscience, business developer and technology advisor at FinalSpark. With more than 20 peer-reviewed papers, Ewelina's work at FinalSpark is about market-planning, strategy and investment in working computers through human living neurons. 

Personal website: ewelinakurtys.com
Ewelina's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ewelinakurtys/

FinalSpark: https://finalspark.com/

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

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Students and graduates,

Have a break from this session by hearing a late-night talk I had with Michael Gerharz, PhD, about the impact of communication in your PhD and in public.

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

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Chapters

• 10:34 Academic Path And PhD Focus
• 15:29 Leaving The Lab For Commercial Roles
• 19:59 Final Spark’s Biocomputing Vision
• 27:09 How Living Neuron Computers Work
• 38:01 Daily Challenges And Early Results
• 45:31 Culture, Calm, And Problem Solving

Transcript

Luis Maia: 7:04

Evelino Curtis, welcome to the PhD Launch Podcast, and thank you so much for being my next guest. So, how do you feel today?

Ewelina Kurtys: 7:15

Very good, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here.

Luis Maia: 7:17

Thank you so much. Uh I'd like to start to knowing a bit about yourself. What was your uh uh academic background? What was your PhD before you landed uh as a sci uh on a role as a scientist at Finals Park?

Ewelina Kurtys: 7:37

So um I actually I did my master's, uh I did two masters in pharmacy and biotechnology in Poland, where I come from, and then um I traveled also uh quite a lot. I was studying also in Belgium and Italy. And uh later I did a PhD in the Netherlands in medical imaging. I was doing neuroscience because I realized that the most interesting part of the biomedical topics is uh neuroscience and brain for me. So I did um I did a very nice project uh where I tested the effect of uh nutrition of some anti-inflammatory formulations on brain inflammation, and I was also looking how it can affect uh disease progress pre-clinical. So that's the science after I did also a postdoc in at King's College in London because I was not sure what to do with myself. I didn't really know um what are the options in the industry. I had absolutely no clue. I was applying to some big corporations, but I think I wouldn't fit uh too much. And uh later I realized um by you know networking, just trial and error. I realized that there are a lot of small companies who are which are doing technical things, and then I found this is my niche. So actually, since that time, I am not working in a lab anymore. I work on the commercial, commercial uh work, I do commercial work, uh, so anything which is uh sales, uh business development, marketing, anything. Uh but on deep tech projects. Uh so I can use my advantage here because it's easier uh to understand. If you have a PhD, it's always easier to understand another uh technical topic topic. Yeah, so yes, so when I was living in London, I also discovered artificial intelligence. I realized it's you can set up your own business, why not? You don't have to be an employee, and it's quite easy in in UK, so I think it's it's a paradise uh for entrepreneurship. And I set up a company, I started to work as a consultant, so I have more freedom. Uh, and uh yes, and this is uh where I am now. I'm working uh with Final Spark, as you mentioned, since a few years, and uh we are a small team of six people. Uh, all of them are in Switzerland. I'm the only person who is working remotely because I don't do um like on a daily basis, I don't do RD. So I can do this um separately, but uh actually all the team has to be there in the office because it's important for uh technology developments to have people in one place. And yes, and we try to build computers for mimic neurons, so this uh somehow corresponds with my background in my PhD in neuroscience, so it's easier for me to understand, and also because I studied a lot uh AI also when I started to work on commercial applications, so that's a combination of these two topics which are fascinating for me uh neuroscience and AI.

Luis Maia: 10:37

So it's a you using a bit of the both uh worlds, as you said, yes, absolutely.

Ewelina Kurtys: 10:44

Yes, because in biocomputing actually that's a that's a new field uh on which we're working, where we build computers from living neurons. And uh here you have to combine these two fields, uh neuroscience and engineering.

Luis Maia: 10:57

So a lot of traveling, then trial and error, a bit of network, and then you've landed uh at Final Spark, and then you are able to demonstrate your expertise in both fields, the neuroscience and the uh the economic the economical uh venture as well, in trying to uh showcase what Final Spark is, but it's quite impressive. And I was wondering how long did you have to how long did you take to for you to network with different people in order to land in your current position?

Ewelina Kurtys: 11:35

Well, I think uh it's hard to judge, you know, it's a process, I think it's just an ongoing process, you cannot say it's uh your whole life. Yes. Uh I I'd say I I don't think you can just uh give a timeline, but I think it's good to be always open to network and always talk to people, always be curious, no matter where you are, because it always pays you back.

Luis Maia: 11:59

Yes, and I think also with the with having a PhD, and also can be more open-minded than trying to asking questions, as our supervisors tell us to keep asking questions to yourself and what if this, what if that, how does this, how does it work on that? I think that that is a bigger advantage. So, as we were just saying about uh computers for your living neurons, then how how that idea uh came came upon to a positive outcome. And on a personal note, you said as well yet you're working remotely, but I wonder how is the day uh at the lab. Do you also go to Switzerland quite often, or is it mostly remote work, as as you said?

Ewelina Kurtys: 12:52

I don't work in the lab. You don't work in the lab in the lab anymore. Uh so it's uh just totally different. I left the lab and I have to say I never look back, although I really enjoyed uh being in the lab, but at some point I realized I don't want to do this anymore. Uh and I don't regret this. Uh and uh yes, how it started. So Final Spark was founded by Fred Jordan and Martin Kuter. These are two Swiss entrepreneurs. They have already another company uh which is digital uh technologies and it's profitable. Uh so they have money to start something else, which doesn't have to be uh so so quick to make money, but like a dream. So they had a dream to build a thinking machine, like many engineers. And they started initially with the digital technologies, but later they realized it's too expensive. Uh so if you have a small budget, you have to be more disruptive, and they decided to go on neuroscience.

Luis Maia: 13:51

Wow. Sounds like a like a whole it took probably took a bit of time then to just to come up with uh a project idea on a budget, then and how then does that work with using human cells?

Ewelina Kurtys: 14:10

Uh so we use standard methods in from biomedical research, that's nothing new. You can catch neurons uh uh in the lab, it's uh quite often used, but we do different purposes. Uh so we want to do this because we want to build computers from uh living neurons. So we put neurons on electrodes. In this way, we can send them electrical signals and we can measure the response from neurons, which are spikes, and we want to be able to program them. So basically, we want to be able to send them electrical signals and so that they answer us in a meaningful way, the same way as uh digital computers are doing today.

Luis Maia: 14:50

But how do we how do we get do or do we obtain those human those human cells?

Ewelina Kurtys: 14:57

From human skin. So this is actually the process which is already commercialized, uh, so it's quite standard. And today you can buy stem cells which are derived from human skin. And from the stem cells you can have theoretically any cells you want.

Luis Maia: 15:13

Oh my. So it's so it's so easy then to obtain human skin then. Oh, and then is it a uh a rather complicated process to uh run these tests? Does it have any any any out any positive outcomes? Was there any major setbacks in order to test them and use them to build computer hardware?

Ewelina Kurtys: 15:43

Yes, it's very difficult, and there are a lot of problems every day. Actually, every time you work with biology, you you always have a lot of problems, but here even more because it's a really challenging uh project, and uh we have all types of problems: how to get the right cells, how to keep them alive, and uh how to avoid contamination. So you have uh challenges every day. It's not easy, uh, and the most difficult thing is programming neurons because nobody really knows how they encode information, so we have to do a lot of trial and error uh to try to figure out uh some methods, and so far we managed to store one bit of information. So, this is to illustrate how early we are. That's this very early stage.

Luis Maia: 16:29

At an early stage, wow. So tell me, do you have do you remember a time where you had you the team had that challenge? And then how the team overcame that challenge, and what do they what did they learn from that?

Ewelina Kurtys: 16:48

Well, every time we have an issue, we actually what is characteristic is that we are very relaxed, but I can tell you it's not a usual thing. Uh, in uh many places I've seen it's not like that, but we are always relaxed and we just try to solve the problem. So, yeah, so I think uh Finance Park has a very nice atmosphere which is stimulating uh creativity and uh solving uh problem solving, and we don't follow emotions so much. So um actually, I really I never found uh I've never seen the founders angry actually. I work with them maybe more than five years already. I stopped counting, but uh I think I've never sent uh sew them angry, and that's I think it's a very important thing, and it's very rare because I think people are uh sometimes very weak and you know they just uh uh go out of mind when they are stressed. But if you are running a startup, you know, there is always some stress, you can never avoid this. So I think it's important to have this kind of composure emotional, and actually uh for everyone, because like all the team members, I I've never seen anyone really angry. I don't remember that. So uh maybe okay, I work remotely, so it's always different, yeah. But uh, but still I have to say it's remarkable, and that's uh very important. Uh you know, to keep uh then you can keep building, uh you don't have to waste your energy.

Luis Maia: 18:16

That's quite rare to uh to this is something that I've hear rarely, or maybe this is the first time I'm hearing. Yeah, I I this is like you have a startup and then just building living human neurons, and we ourselves are humans as well, and then we try to uh restraint our emotions, and as and that just yeah, and and that's just that. I mean, it's like okay, but this is not working, and then it's just I I can't point fingers at someone to blame one, which is so rare just said in in any startup or any major established business. Oh my gosh, I'm speechless now. And um for those challenges, does that also include trying to reduce any energy consumption as well as not depending uh heavily on AI, which is it's a big thing nowadays, and many people are still uncertain or scared, or just everything just comes up and is amplified.

Ewelina Kurtys: 19:28

So I can tell you honestly, we don't try to save money on digital AI. I don't do this also myself in my work. I think it's a bad idea. I think it's uh very important to use AI in your work because if you don't uh do this, then other people will do this and then you will stay behind. So I think it's not a good idea. Uh but so you we use heavily digital AI, and we actually have some ideas on how to how to more and more ideas, you know, with the LLMs be being uh better and better. We have uh always uh growing uh bank of ideas, how we can use it to automate our work in every aspect. Uh so the whole project is about uh building computer which will be ultra-energy efficient, so we'll be I will be much cheaper running on this, but that's the future. So absolutely that doesn't mean that RD is uh saving energy, that doesn't work that way. Actually, when you're building something, you will sometimes use a lot of energy. So to be to figure out, you know, once it works, it will be easy. But before it works, you have to put a lot of uh effort and energy also, uh also, really electrical energy. Uh so no, absolutely we don't save energy today. Today it's RD, and once we figure out how to use living neurons as a computer, then we can uh talk about saving energy. And emotional energy for sure are energy efficient, but uh you know that's only when you have computers which are really working that you can talk about saving.

Luis Maia: 20:57

As I was saying, then uh not only saving energy, but uh electrical energy as you said, but also I wanted to point out saving also emotional energy when working on these on the these kind of things on the computers. Uh but then you also said about uh looking looking out for investors, and which as you said, your main your main role before when we had our first chat like a month ago. Uh did you have did you find any any hurdles, any challenges where investors are a bit reluctant to invest on in Final Spark?

Ewelina Kurtys: 21:43

Yes, definitely. The biggest challenge is the fact that it's such a long-term project. Uh so it's like quantum computing, it takes a long time, but we have much less uh visibility than quantum. So people are still reluctant to uh to put money. Actually, we get a lot of uh requests from our website from individual people who want to put their own money, sometimes quite a lot. Uh, but for investors like venture funds, I think it's still a challenge because most of them they invest in short-term projects, and especially today when you have LLMs and everyone says we don't know the future, it's very uh unpredictable. So people are afraid even more because uh the longer the timeline, the higher the risk, and it's true, it's a very high-risk project, so it's not for everyone. Uh so yes, that's the biggest challenge, is uh is this.

Luis Maia: 22:37

Any any businesses that have already invested in Finals Plac? No, we are currently self-funded, self-funding, okay, but still going on on talks.

Ewelina Kurtys: 22:50

Uh yes, because we search for 50 million, uh, it's a big amount of money. So uh there are a lot of people who want to invest small amounts of money, but uh it's a challenge with 50 billions.

Luis Maia: 23:03

Yeah, I I I agree on that, and because uh as you said, it they're looking for short-term investment, and in in this day and age, it's that there's a lot of uncertainty of we don't know what's going to happen, and it feels a bit nor nor normal to say, okay, it is seems interesting, but to invest and just need to be a bit cautious on that. Uh, I was doing actually some research on the website, and I was looking, oh, Evelina told me about told me about trying to do investments, and I'm myself not a big investor, but a small, a small, a small investor, and I was like, oh, so they have a minimum amount. And I say, Maybe I can speak to Evelina uh after the talk and say, How can I do this? And then trying to invest on along it's on for like the minimum amount, and then if whatever comes, invest in a lar a larger amount in the future, you know. So from what I understood, it is open to everyone who wants to invest.

Ewelina Kurtys: 24:07

Uh yes, but the minimum uh ticket size is one million.

Luis Maia: 24:12

One million.

Ewelina Kurtys: 24:13

So this is a challenge, yes.

Luis Maia: 24:17

Um and then one of the things that I've was really interested in knowing about it, you have reached tried to reach out final sparks through whether for podcasts, also writing articles, being featured in different events. Uh, was there any uh event that you've been invited to uh talk about and about about the project?

Ewelina Kurtys: 24:44

Oh yes, uh all the time. Actually, we are uh uh almost every day invited for events. I think it's quite uh interesting technology. Uh so uh so yes, many people would like to look would like us uh to speak on the events, and of course we don't always accept uh because we have uh limited you know uh resources, but um but yes, we are invited a lot.

Luis Maia: 25:11

So they don't so when you guys when Finance Park is invited to those events, though they don't pay they don't pay the company to come to feed.

Ewelina Kurtys: 25:21

No, they always say actually we only go for the event if we are paid uh the travel, yes, all the expenses, including the ticket for the conference and the travel, anything. We have to be strict because you know if uh we would like to go everywhere, then we would be doing nothing else. Yes, we have to figure out, and uh also actually, even if people pay us, that doesn't mean we should go because it costs a lot of time, so we have to be really mindful because we are only six people, and we have to always carefully think uh doesn't bring me what I wanted or not. So that's uh that's always uh important how to use your time effectively.

Luis Maia: 30:26

Yes, and and that's that's a major thing for as you said, as a small company, it takes a bit of caution to to travel and expand the the the concept of the of of final spark. Uh which one which which event did you attend? Uh the last the last event you attended before before this talk?

Ewelina Kurtys: 30:50

Uh the last one was I think robotic summit in Paderborn in Germany.

Luis Maia: 30:56

Did you have to speak in German or just in English?

Ewelina Kurtys: 31:00

No, I spoke in English.

Luis Maia: 31:01

Oh because I've uh I was at I was curious about this because I've been to understand a bit more of the of the content because I've my academic background is a completely different, a different topic. I come from ancient history and I have zero knowledge in uh computers through literature. living neurons and even in computer science and I was trying to understand how how the how this process works in order to make these questions for the for the talk and I had the the guts to attend uh one of your uh events in Poland when you had to speak your own native uh language I saw it yes where I I spoke ah okay okay yes yes I saw it on YouTube I don't remember which one it was it or maybe that was from uh katowice because they posted recently and I posted this on LinkedIn also what was it what was it like to be to be there to be to attend the to not to attend and to to to speak it's always a pleasure I love to do this so for me it's always a pleasure some people are stressed but uh I'm excited always when I speak yeah and I think that that's that's a that's a big that's a big thing because many people just going out just going there at the stage they feel nervous and then they don't know what to say they are going everything on the script but then if I and and if you said as you said that event uh that happened in that location I'm sorry I can't I'm not able to pronounce it uh and then speaking in your native language then it would be much more comfortable right yes of course yeah and the questions just would be so so natural so you didn't need to have any script whatsoever to to answer those questions no I think if you don't uh I did it in the past when I was less confident and I didn't know very well the topic I had a few times presentations where I really learned uh word by word what I'm going to say by heart and I think it's a good starting point yes because that gives you opportunity to speak with total confidence because you know exactly what you will say uh so I did it at the beginning uh but later uh once I realize it's not so difficult to speak I don't have to do this anymore but I really recommend this as a start if someone is nervous yeah very good but uh you have to repeat like maybe 50 times your speech uh until you get tired but uh then you get more confident if you have pro issues with confidence yes did you have also uh these these type of uh this type of public speaking events during your PhD when if you presented at conferences but yes I always like it but uh of course as a PhD you you sit mostly in the lab you don't stay so much you know outside so I would say much less much less so that was another uh the question about the potential inventions as you as as you as you've answered uh did you was was there any criticism uh final spark has received so any any negative criticism well some people are uh scared of what we are doing but that's normal because every new technology I think is bringing some questions and fears and people are usually afraid of what they don't understand.

Ewelina Kurtys: 34:33

So I think it's it's normal that when you have the new technology um some people are afraid. Yes. So that's why we try to be so transparent and to share about what we do so that people can understand.

Luis Maia: 34:47

That's that's that's a that's a nice way to see to see to see things in a positive way when receiving criticism and have I would say that uh Fred and Martin would just maintain their composure and say okay just as as we were saying initially to not being so overdramatic or emotional when running the test but also when receiving criticism.

Ewelina Kurtys: 35:16

Yes.

Luis Maia: 35:19

And then how do you ensure or even final spark ensure that this state of the art technology or they say this um computer hardware through living neurons which is a revolutionary thing how will that benefit society? Well because we can build computers which will use much much less energy neurons are one million times more energy efficient than digital computers so that's why so projecting projecting this for the future where would you would you think that this would be more uh practical or usual in maybe in a few decades or just a couple more hundreds of years computer in 10 years in 10 years well so there's a lot of confidence then yes and uh you also have a YouTube channel right yes I had seen it do you also do you use it quite regularly regularly to no not really no not really so much but yes uh I enjoy talking so yes every opportunity is good but is that is if it would be related to your day your day-to-day job final spark or is just a a completely different um channel where you just share your your hobbies or no I would definitely do something completely different so in that case if you if you weren't doing this role at Final Spark then what would you do?

Ewelina Kurtys: 37:15

I think I would be a salesperson on some technical products some complex technical sales because I love to talk I love to sell and uh when I when there are a lot of technicalities I have advantage because uh I like I like to read about this so I can understand and then I think I also know how to explain things in such a way that everyone can understand.

Luis Maia: 37:38

Any specific company you you in in in that case any specific company would you rather to apply just any no I never thought I didn't think about it because if I have to then I will search but uh I uh I I didn't really focus but yes that definitely if not this I would do sales or maybe something else who knows maybe something else maybe a lot of things I I I don't think about myself you know and one of the things I also going back to the last question about um the compute the computers uh helping uh society more broadly they also have a um uh on the web on the final sparks website they have they also have a like a sort of a mini game isn't it so that they can interact with you mean butterfly uh I think so yes uh I I I have checked a few uh a few days ago and just trying to play play around with it see I can't understand this okay can you just explain to us how how can they interact for for someone who has no background in in science yeah you don't need to have a background actually we have done a web application which is called butterfly it doesn't always work because it's uh connected to real neurons and sometimes we have problems in the lab or you know limited resources so it doesn't work always but when it works is uh basically you can move a butterfly on on the screen and you decide a direction and whether butterfly uh will move or not will depend on the activity of neurons so it's kind of like controlled by living neurons. So it's not it not saying perfect but sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't work then.

Ewelina Kurtys: 39:30

Yeah it just doesn't sometimes it's closed. If it doesn't work you cannot log in inside and uh then you know that doesn't work.

Luis Maia: 39:41

And it just doesn't work because we have limited resources because you know it has to be connected to real neurons so that's why it's sometimes closed so it is it is still something not un underworking say the least then yes so it but but it makes it uh aware for who wants to interact to understand how this butterfly uh process works then yes absolutely yeah so would be would be someone is say saying saying in in putting this question would final spark be open eventual uh job roles if you want if they want to yes definitely but not now definitely now we don't hire although we get a lot of questions from people for internships or uh jobs yes we don't hire because uh we have limited budget yeah but once we will find investors that's the objective actually for the investment is to increase the team so that we will be hiring yes sure has that was there any any chance to reach out to universities to to have this investment to have for them to invest or just to have a a partnership for students to know the team for an eventual uh job role yes as you say even though it's it's not for now but at a later stage well uh universities rather don't have money to invest 50 million uh but we do collaborate with universities actually we invest in them because uh we selected some universities uh to give them free access to our lab so actually we g we kind of put money into this uh universities can also rent the lab there we have such a client who are universities who pay us to get access and yes I think it's also good to use it for education we actually try to promote this also as could be a tool uh for education yes because you can connect to our lab remotely at any time and uh you can do experiments uh so yes we do work a lot with universities yes is it mostly uh based in Switzerland or is also isn't everywhere actually on our website uh financepark.com you can see section neuro platform and they're actually all the universities uh universities which uh they are listed there all who get access for free they're from everywhere okay so they make sure students and graduates if you are interested just make sure and can also link up with Evelina which yes we'll go over there uh and uh just trying to interact and I think this is gonna be a revolutionary uh move in 10 years time as you said and yes anything that is new it has a bit of resistance of course but I think it's gonna it's gonna be it's gonna it's gonna stay yes and we and I think it won't be much dependent on ai everything with AI and being dependent on so much of it even for simple questions right yes uh so in that case as just to wrap up do you have any advice to PhDs uh or even to those who want to take a PhD specifically in this area and what challenges do you have to share with them and in order for that in order for they for them to achieve success and currently in this stage where the market labor is so rough nowadays that even myself I'm going to have some going to have those challenges where because I'm still doing my corrections. I think that uh uh it's not possible I think to do PhD in biocomputing it's to uh fresh the field if you are interested in this kind of stuff it's definitely there are projects on the intersection of neuroscience and engineering for example uh brain computer interface and I think for a PhD definitely it's good to think what really is the most interesting topic for you I think it's a good criteria to choose I follow that and uh for me it worked amazingly because I I enjoyed a lot my PhD because I like the topic yes uh yes and when it comes uh yeah you ask about PhD yes the advice for PhD yeah that would be the advice to do or something what you really enjoy otherwise it's a waste of time yes and that I think that time is a valuable resource and man which many of us don't value it uh 100% because I'd say I don't have time for this I don't have time for that or maybe you have time for that you have time and you just don't know how to use it so Avelina where they can follow you've already shared the final sparks website but where they can follow more of your work where they can connect um Fred and Martin because I think they would be for the top ones to to reach out to network with where they can I think the best is our website we have also discord uh discord for technical discussion we have also newsletter all the information are on our website and if someone needs any guidance is very welcome to send us a message and go specifically to you to you as well if they want to connect with you we answer every message always yes so I think this is a wrap up so thank you so much Evelina thank you thank you so much and I mean for the students and graduates uh hearing this topic just reach out to Evelina uh check out finalspark.com check out every resource and maybe you will eventually network with them so thank you thank you so much Evelina thank you all for tuning in and it has been a pleasure thank you bye bye