Late-Night Talk: Andrea Grandi, PhD. A Former Postdoc Explains How To Land Your First Industry Role

Students and Graduates!

Andrea Grandi, PhD, holds a PostDoc in Pharma at the University of Parma and former Corporate R&D Scientist at Chiesi Group.

He is the founder of Dr G Development, helping PostDocs in Pharma and related STEM fields to transition and land Pharma/Biotech industry roles with his 8-week accelerator program.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrea-grandi-phd-a09b4687/

Website: https://drgrandiphd.vercel.app/

Instagram: @drgrandiphd

Thank you all for tuning in, it has been a pleasure!

Transcript

Welcome And Job Hunting Context

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Andrea Grandi, welcome to PhD Lounge and thank you so much for uh being my latest guest and curiously you're the uh second postdoc I have on on the show. I had another one couple weeks ago, and you're my second my second guest as a postdoc, so welcome and grateful for you uh grateful for you to have you here.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Thank you very much for having me. I'm very grateful to have the opportunity to be here too.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

So thank you so much. And we were talking about previously of um job hunting and just like a few minutes ago, job hunting, many historians, and I'm engineering historian, I'm on the hunt for jobs, and you just recommended me to look out for HR jobs. But in your perspective, uh what if you have any idea of more or less what jobs uh people from the field of arts and humanities uh could do that are non-related to that specific area?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah, 100%, 100%. That's uh quite a common career path as far as I know in the HR field. You know, many people come from like history or human science, so something that I not only in farming in general in corporate, uh something I saw over and over. So could be a good path for you. Would you like to be on that path?

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Uh honestly, I'd love to do project management and culture, so is establishing cultural projects for for local communities. And recently I I managed a project alongside with other managers and coordinators to establish a podcast in a an in a local area close to Swansea where I where I'm based. And what they wanted to do was to design the project accordingly to the to the employability, um, rate and mental health uh of that of that um of that place. And so it was successful. They've managed to establish a podcast, how to start it from scratch, from design to audio editing, video editing, interviewing techniques. So it was a great experience. So that's what I would love go across the lines, but I can be also flexible.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

So well done. Best of luck for your job, Hart, and also for your upcoming PhD defense.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Thank you. Thank you so much. Uh actually, sorry, the the PhD defense, no, because uh I've done it last year, so I'm just waiting for my graduation ceremony, which will be in in three weeks. So I apologize if if it was a bit of a miscommunication in that sense, but uh overall it was it went great. So I'm officially now uh a PhD graduate, so just waiting for the ceremony to come, and that's it.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Great.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

When your PhD uh graduation ceremony was how was it like is it different from here?

SPEAKER_02 6:16

I am not sure how is it in the UK, but uh uh we had like this big day a few months after the dissertation where everyone goes in the room with uh a black suit and the hats, and then there is the the dean of the university who makes the inspirational speech,

Career Paths Beyond Academia

SPEAKER_02 6:32

and then everyone uh takes the hat off and launches a beer, and they do pictures. No, it's it's nice. It was very nice.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

It was very nice. Did you do something similar? Uh I did with my when I um when I went to my ceremony, my graduation ceremony uh of my master's degree, and it was a welcoming uh induction from the from the dean, and the process was quite simple. They would call us one by one. We had uh an announcer, we would walk off the stage, we would clap as usual, we would do the salute to the vice-chancellor or the dean in this case, and outside we would we did not do the throwing, that was optional, but I did the hat throwing, just okay, I'll do the hat throwing, and then just like doing some some pictures with uh my friends, uh my parents, sorts of sorts of thing.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Yeah, you're just playing.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Yeah, so speaking of your PhD and also your postdoc, how what how it was it like to do it, and what sort of a click you you felt that maybe academia is not my go-to, but rather industry, and then how that led you to find to establish your own business. You say Dr. G development, which is kind of interesting. It's uh it's a great name. It feels like uh some sort of uh Dr. G as in 50 cent style and all so sort of it. That's what I came to my mind. So don't take it as an as an insult, but I found it quite quite interesting.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Yeah, no, no, thank you. I appreciate that. Dr. G is like like Dr. Grande is Dr. G, and it's drug development, you know, what we do in pharma is drug development, so it sounds like drug development. This is the this is the job. But thank you folks for your question. So my PhD was in um was in pharmacology and specifically in the field of uh gastrointestinal diseases, and my postdoc was also in pharmacology but focused on respiratory diseases. So when I defended my PhD, I already knew that I wanted to move into industry.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

I really couldn't see the postdoc I had been offered like something leading anywhere long term. I accepted it because it was in a collaboration with a couple of companies in the respiratory field, one of which eventually became the company where I ended up working for six years. And I was genuinely interested in the project, and I also wanted to publish a paper or two from the big from the work I had been doing during during the PhD. So this is what I thought. I thought, like, I will do one year of postdoc, look for an industry job, and during

Graduation Ceremonies And Milestones

SPEAKER_02 9:25

that year, and then move on. I honestly thought that was going to be easy. Instead, I ended up in what I now call the postdoc black hole. As soon as I started my postdoc, I also started applying for industry positions, right? But it was incredibly hard. It was so hard for 18 months, which is a year and a half, I couldn't get a single job offered. I don't want to scare you if you're going into the job hunting. You're gonna do something, but I was just doing terrible back then. And I had maybe on the span of 18 months, I had maybe three interviews, like one for a diabetes scientist position at Sanofi, another one with Philip Morris, which interestingly they were interested in my work because my PhD focused on nicotinic receptors, and nicotine has been investigated for some inflammatory bowel diseases. And the third interview was for Teleton Foundation, which is an Italian charity. So throughout that entire period, I never questioned whether industry was the right move. I wanted something more dynamic, I wanted to work on therapies that could have a real impact on patients. I wanted more financial stability,

The Postdoc Black Hole Story

SPEAKER_02 10:46

and most importantly, I didn't see many of the postdocs around me building the career that I wanted. Like most people eventually moved into industry, or they got stuck in what seemed like an endless loop of postdocs and of temporary contracts and this kind of stuff. So I knew since the very beginning that industry was where I wanted to be. That the problem was simply that my approach wasn't working. So after 18 months, I I remember thinking like, okay, this doesn't work. I I need to change something. Like, and I completely changed uh my strategy. I became much more structured and intentional in my job search, and I applied this new strategy for the following month, and everything changes to the point that in 2019 I actually got I signed two job offers in the span of six months. So, yeah, the first one was uh with AGC Biologics, which is a biotech company, and the second one was with Kiesy Group, which is a global pharmaceutical company, a world-leading pharmaceutical company in the respiratory field. And by the way, this is essentially the same transition process that I now teach inside my eight-week accelerator coaching program. And now, how did that eventually lead to Dr. G development? That's that happened many years later. Because I spent six years working in pharma in Kiesi, and during the last couple of years, I became increasingly interested in coaching because I realized that the struggle that I experienced wasn't unique to me. Uh, I saw like every postdoc I met seemed to be facing the same challenges. So I was still living in the same city where I did my PhD and postdoc, which is Parma in Italy. And I stayed in touch with many people from academia, and many of them, most of them were still stuck in the same transition stage. So at some point I thought, like, and also I saw a lot of PhD students and postdocs coming across the lab where I was working, and they were all stuck like at the end of their PhD. So during my fifth year in Pharma, I started volunteering for Johns Hopkins University in the US in Baltimore. And they were looking for some industry professionals uh to help their postdocs navigate the transition into industry careers. So I spent like a couple of years doing that for like a couple of hours per month, and that's where something really clicked. Because uh these were postdocs working in another country, like in a different continent, like and they were facing exactly the same problems that I had experienced myself, and also the same problems that uh I had seen among other postdocs in Italy or or in Europe. So I realized how global the challenge really was. And over those two years at Hopkins, I also started understanding much more clearly what actually works during the transition process and what does not work. And so eventually I decided to launch my own coaching business and create my own coaching program. And so when I started about six months later, which is now around nine months ago now, wow, congratulations. I decided to leave my RD career completely and and focus full-time on helping uh postdocs successfully transition into final.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Wow, so that's quite of a quite of a long stretch you had, and then working around uh what what have you learned from those 18 months of trend trying to transitioning and to well you already said you wanted industry and but then you you sought how to tailor that strategy to get into industry fast, but at the same time in a in an effective manner. So probably that's most of um post-phds, postdocs struggle in trying to find a strategy to get it to get to get to where they actually want. But maybe I've seen lots of cont lots of content from such as yourself and many other users that uh most of the times it's just not the CV, it's just not the cover letter, it is a risk assessment, it is something it is something that it goes beyond, or maybe is the lack of industry experience. Don't you think that also influences um the career, the prospective career of a postdoc in this regard? And that's where you go in in helping them.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah, um 100%. No, first of all, yeah, appreciate you highlighting that it was a long journey because I I was thinking earlier while speaking with you, like I graduated from my PhD in 2017, so it's almost 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Wow, I mean this I was finishing my undergrad at the time.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

It's it's it's a long time. So all this thing that I'm doing right now is like 10 years in the making, like learning first by going through myself and then teaching to others. And I completely agree with you that what most people think is the problem, it's very often the problem is something deeper. So honestly, my accelerator comes from basically from experience, then 10 years in the making, and from experimental minds. Like you know, I I always say once a scientist, always a scientist. Yes. So over the years I tried different approaches and observed what was working and kept doing more of what worked and stopped doing what wasn't working, right? So when I first started coaching, I what I was offering was like one-hour CV review sessions because that's what people wanted. And honestly, I am not offering those sanctions anymore, not because they they didn't. I mean, people were were happy with the feedback, they were saying, like, I finally understand how how to write me CV, but it was a problem. So, not a single person found a job in industry because of a one-hour CV review alone, not a single one. So that made me realize something very important, and that is the CV is only a small piece of the transition. Like, most postdocs don't struggle because they don't know how to forward a CV. They struggle because they don't know how to position themselves for pharma roles, they don't know which roles to target, they don't know how to tailor their applications, they don't know how to network, they don't know how to interview, and they don't know how to build a strategy that actually generates interview consistently, like an interview generating strategy. So, working for a couple of years at Hopkins helping their postdocs made a huge impact on my thinking. Like their transition program was three months long, and it gave me the opportunity to work with many postdocs over a long period of time. That's where I started to understand that what people really need in order to make significant progress and successfully transition into industry. And over time I found that eight weeks is really like the minimum amount of time needed to work through all the key elements of a successful transition. That's enough time to build a clear strategy, it's enough time to implement it consistently, it's enough time to receive feedback, to make adjustments, and start generating the interviews that will eventually lead to job offers. So that's why I created the eight-week accelerator, not just because eight weeks sounds like a nice number, right? It's eight weeks because through experience and through data and through experiments,

Why CV Fixes Are Not Enough

SPEAKER_02 20:12

that's the shortest time frame I've found that consistently allows people to make meaningful process. And to your point, the number one issue that my postdoc clients share with me, and this is also something like you mentioned, that I talk about a lot, especially on LinkedIn. So when postdocs reach out to me, I typically ask them one question. And the question is like, what do you believe is currently holding you back from making this transition happen? So, what do you believe is currently holding you back from making this transition happen? And around 90% of them give me one of these answers. They either say, Oh, the market is very bad right now, or they say, I can't figure out how to do my TV. And I want to be clear, these are all real considerations, yeah, which is true.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Uh, but I want also to point on that that it while it is true, it's better to ignore that and maybe just learn from learn what you can improve, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, I uh yeah, uh, but it's not so I mean, of course, uh, I I agree with you, it's not so easy when when you are on the other side because I haven't been on the other side. I probably made these assumptions too, but the market can be difficult, and it probably is, but the C the CV does matter. But after coaching 60 plus postdocs on their transition, I found that like these are rarely the real blockers. Let's start with the market. Like, as you said, you cannot change it. We can spend hours with experts of economy of pharma discussing how the market will be next year. Nobody knows. No, probably it's not gonna be much better than that, but really nobody knows. So, how can that help you? And your CV in the end of the day, a CV for a pharma position, it's a two-page PDF. Yeah, so like if a two-page PDF were really the main blocker after a PhD, multiple postdocs, years of publishing scientific papers, you would have figured it out by now how to do it, right? Of course, it matters. The CV needs to communicate your value, it needs to be clear, needs to include metrics, it needs to speak the language of pharma, it needs to be tailored for the job description. But that is not enough. So if the market and the CV are not the real problem, they're not the real blockers, what are they? So, from my experience, coaching scientists, read week accelerator, the the real blockers are usually very different. So at the very beginning of the program, we identify the roles that are the best fit for my clients, and then we work on their CV to make sure that it is tailored to these roles. This is essential. And honestly, every single one of them can learn how to do this. Like week two or three in the program, they perfectly know how to do the CV. Yeah, and that's not the end, that's where the work starts, actually, because learning the mechanics is just the beginning, like the real work starts afterwards because the real blockers are usually at least one of these three. And the first one is overcoming the fear of rejection, the second one is dealing with the rejections once they happen, because they they will they will happen a lot, and following uh structure consistently, like every single day, trusting the process, following the process. So most people already know what they should do, they know what they need to do, they need to target the right roles, they need to tailor the CD, they need to write the cover letter, they need to network, they need to apply, they need to prepare for interviews. The difficult part isn't learning these things. The difficult part is repeating them consistently, even when the the first 20 applications turn into 20 rejections, which which can happen. It happened to me, but uh it will happen to most people. That's why I teach my clients to think in terms of pipeline, like keep applying when you are interviewing, keep interviewing while you're waiting for feedback, just like in in pharma, you need assets at every stage of the RD because failure is part of the process. And ironically, this is where most people who are trying to do this alone eventually got stuck because instead of doing the uncomfortable work, they end up studying the markets, so they tweak the CV like a hundred times. So these activities feel like productive, but they often become a way of avoiding the work that actually creates results. So if you're opposed right now listening and you're interested in moving to the industry or to pharma, the next time you find yourself saying, My problem is the CV, the market is too bad right now. I would like you to ask yourself this. So the question is, have I actually identified the real blocker, or am I just focusing on the easiest one to blame?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

That's that is a great point. And I think the that there are many there are many people who can't deal with rejection, they often fear it. It's just like in any other in any other aspect, professionally speaking, and In a personal in a personal uh standpoint as well. But I do also I do think that most of us, uh myself included, is the lack of clarity, the lack of structure of what do you want actually to do. And you can be flexible in many ways, but creating that pipeline, Andrea, is so valuable into of saying what you actually want, but at the same time how you're going to respond to it, which is so important nowadays, despite even despite all of these blockers, as you said, and creating that structure of that pipeline and doing the the process of networking, process of doing something on LinkedIn, consulting uh career advisors as well. Uh, it that is all part of the process. I mean, that was a that's a good thing when I've learned of my PhD and consulting um different people in the f in the of the careers at university at Swans University, where I've graduated from. And they also help, they provide lifetime access. And obviously, those activities like the tailoring of the C V, the all of that, but uh they also they also help on structuring a creating a pipeline of what you actually want, and that's so valuable. So, I do believe also that the structure is something that is the third one and the most important one, and it's great that you point out to that alongside those other two remaining blockers.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

So, yeah, 100%, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

So uh, so you said they do the CV, and then the real work, the real progress starts on dealing with that, the uh taking out of the fear and then making it into the structure. Uh and do we have any sort of approach for them to start changing the mindset to overcome those common barriers into successful achievements?

SPEAKER_02 28:37

Okay, this is a great question. Uh, so this is how it typically works inside the A Green Accelerator. So we develop both the practical side and the mindset. Yeah, so because these days, if you want to find a job in pharma or biotech, it is imperative to do both. Like we always start with a self-assessment, which is one of the most important exercises in the program because it helps my postal clients to go much deeper than their CV. One of them told me recently that this exercise was way more challenging, they're reviewing his own paper. And I get it, like because scientists are investigators, but the one thing we often struggle investigating is ourselves. So the self-assessment, the self-assessment allows them to identify their values, their life and career goals, their key strengths that they can leverage in the job search, and the areas of improvement that they need to manage, or the new skills that they need to develop to have a successful transition. So everything starts from there. And the purpose of this exercise is to completely shift their mindset about the transition. So most postdocs come to me asking, This is my background. Where do I fit in industry? It's probably one of the most common questions I receive. But I believe it's the wrong question. Like instead, after the self-assessment, the question becomes this is who I am, these are my goals, these are my strengths, these are the things that I need to improve. Among all the countless career paths available in pharma and biling, which one is actually the best fit for me? It's it's a completely different perspective. Like, can you see the difference? Like it's completely flipped. And instead of trying to fit yourself into the market, you start looking for the part of the market that fits you. And there will be, and you're gonna be way more successful because it's gonna feel like a natural fit. So once we have done that exercise, we normally identify like two or three target roles, and from that moment on, the entire job search becomes focused around these two or three roles. Because nothing is more confusing for recruiters than someone applying to everything that remotely measures their background, right? Recruiters can typically tell immediately whether an application is intentional or whether someone is simply applying everywhere. That's their job. Yeah, and once people, once the post-ops that I help have identified their target roles, then I give them a weekly application target, like a structure they have to follow, and I keep them accountable. But that doesn't mean I punish them if they don't do the application they need to do, but if they miss it, we simply try to understand what happened, what's the root cause, what can we do to make it work next week, uh, what got in the way, what

Self-Assessment And Target Role Clarity

SPEAKER_02 31:58

can we change to make sure that in the following weeks uh we're gonna get to the results that we both want. And then we move to the CV and the cover letter. And as people start becoming more and more confident with those, something interesting typically starts happening. Many of them still hesitate before clicking submit. So they know how to do the CV, but still they they send it to me and say, Can you review it one time more before I apply? And this is usually where I stop them. I can tell them, no, you apply first. Because if I if I'm doing something else, it's gonna take me maybe three or four hours to reply to you. And in those three or four hours, hundreds of other candidates with an imperfect CV may have already submitted their applications. And instead of being candidate number 100, you're now candidate number 300, and now your chances of getting your CV even screened by someone are getting close to zero. At that point, the problem is not your CV, the problem is timing. So I encourage them to submit first and then send me the CV afterwards. If if I see that there is something that needs to be improved tomorrow, they can implement the changes, and next application, they implement the changes. Interestingly enough, when this happens, most of the time I don't have any comments. Like the the CV was not the problem, it was good. Like the fear was the problem. The fear of rejection was the problem. It was a decision-making problem. That's a pattern I see over and over again. That the postdocs aren't waiting because the CV isn't ready, they're waiting because they are afraid of being rejected by the application. And of course, the fear of rejection is completely normal. Yes, we are humans, we are social animals, yeah, and everyone experiences it. And the goal is not to eliminate the fear of rejection, the goal is to make sure that it doesn't stop you from taking action. And while all of this is happening, we also work on LinkedIn and networking and keep applying every single week. And eventually, at some point, when they do a certain amount of application, inevitably rejection email starts arriving. Like usually a lot of them, we we are pursuing with a different candidate who is a better fit for the role. We are pursuing with a different candidate who has more industry experience. So at the beginning of the program, people is typically excited, right? Yeah, they are improving the CV, they're learning things, they are excited, and then reality kits, the rejections start coming in. Like, and this is probably the hardest stage of the entire transition. And it's also the point where I believe that most people quit when they try to do this transition alone, because this is exactly when you need someone reminding you that nothing has gone wrong. This is just how this process works. That's why every Wednesday in the program we meet during our group coaching call and we celebrate the rejections of my students. Like it sounds strange at first, but there is reason. There is a neuroscience reason. The only way to get more interviews and to get more jobs is to submit more applications. And the the only way to get more offers is to attend more interviews. So over the past two years, if there is one predictor of success that I have consistently observed, is the number of rejections. After someone accumulates enough application rejections, I start becoming fairly

Submit Faster And Stop Overthinking

SPEAKER_02 35:40

confident that they are entering interviews territory. And after enough interview rejections, I become increasingly confident that we are in offer territory. So rejection is not evidence that the process isn't working, very often it's the evidence that you are finally doing something and you are in the game. And I helping people normalize the rejection and continue trusting the process is probably one of the biggest mindset shifts we work on. And finally, finally, we we prepare for interviews, we run the mock interviews, we practice answering very difficult questions, and that's where we work on confidence, and that's usually when everything starts coming together. Something incredible happened like over the last couple of months. So uh two of my clients received a job offer like the very first time they reached the final interview stage. But the interview process is typically very long, it takes several weeks. And there are multiple stages. One of them actually received two final interviews, reached two final interview stages and received two offers. After their interviews, after the final stage, they both told me, I think I'm going to get the job. And I was like, I was thinking in my mind, I was like, don't say it. Like let's let's wait until it's official. I I wasn't telling them this because I was like, dude, you're gonna get rejection. Because this is how the process works. This is the first time you get it to the last stage. So looking back, I I realized something that I was surprised by them getting an offer after the the first time they went to the final stage. Oh wow, but not because they weren't good enough, not because they were not prepared, but because I was projecting my own fears, like my own past experience, because I got rejected at the final stage like multiple times, and I know how that hurts. So

Normalising Rejection Through A Pipeline

SPEAKER_02 42:22

it was like it was strange, but in the end, they they both got the offer like the first time they got at the final stage, and so they didn't have to go through this final stage rejection, but without even realizing, I was carrying out my past experiences and my past trauma, like into my coaching, and this story reminded me that their story doesn't have to be the same as mine, like they were very well prepared, they trusted the process, and they succeeded at the first time. So, if I had to summarize how we build the the mindsets, I would do it like this. So, first we identify the clarity on which career fits you rather than trying to fit yourself into a career. Second, we make decisions quickly instead of every overthinking every application. Third, we don't let fear of rejection stop you from taking action, and fourth, we normalize rejection, we even celebrate them because it's part of the process, and finally, we build confidence through preparation, practice, and repeated exposure until interviews become something you look forward rather than something that you fear.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, that's that is a great approach, and I and I mean congrats to those two uh clients of yours who managed to get to man to get a job offer, and it's it's it's a great way of working, uh Andre. And I think once they once anyone who are struggling can understand how how this works, it's way more higher chances of getting a job offer. I I do like to think as well, and I always keep a get a big smile on my face, that saying I got 50 job applications, I get rejected 50 times, but I do believe that of those 50 of those 55 50 times, there will be other 50 times where I will get uh chances of getting interviews. And so this is a this is just a constant loop where it's sort of a rings repeat, rinse repeat process where okay, when I I've applied, we'll see what will happen. I apply for another one and see how it goes. If it isn't this way, if it is, if they don't want, if they don't, if they reject on that occasion, then another opportunity will come. And it had how it's how it works, from what you said. And so sometimes we need to we need to learn, we have to, we must learn and how to how to be more successful for the next job application, and in with the potential of in the hopes of potentially get an interview.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Yeah, it's abundance mindsets, right? Like as opposed to scarcity mindset. You you don't have only that opportunity, you you want to create like a pipeline of opportunities. So if that one doesn't go, you're gonna have another money.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

How many how many job applications do uh your clients uh your clients do when working on your eight-week accelerator program? Do you have a limp? Do you have a sort of a limit?

SPEAKER_02 45:51

Yeah, yeah. What they should do is uh four to five applications per week. And like only the best students can it's not easy, it's because most of them are also working like uh as a full-time postdoc, so they don't have much much time, but that's what they should do, and only the best students are actually hitting the target consistently.

SPEAKER_00 46:17

Okay, no, that's great, and I think I think is quality applications do sound better than quantity. I mean, how in in your in your in your perspective and based on your experience, what would be in uh best in applying with quality applications in terms of numbers? So it'd be five or be ten or twenty. Is that should should be there a specific number of applications per day or per week?

SPEAKER_02 46:51

It's a great question. Honestly, what we saw over the past two years is that it's like five applications per week over eight weeks, and then you can continue implementing the process alone after the program ended, is like the minimum that has significant chances to get you consistently introduced. Of course, the more you do, the better it is. There is no there is no link, sure, but you have to at least do those four to five applications per week, and not not just one week or two weeks, you have to do them every week, every week, every week.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

I do and I uh I agree with you, and at the same time, can you imagine how applying for 100 jobs in a space of a week? How meant how uh your brain gets drained so emotionally of so much applications without having without having a single orientation.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

No, I wouldn't recommend that. No, of course you can super stressed. You don't really know. No, it's it's too much. If you are applying for a hundred positions per week, I'm not sure. I would think you're just spraying brain, you're applying to everything that's yeah, it seems like a good fit. So I wouldn't recommend that.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Yeah, that I think many, many of the many of the clients have already probably have tried to do that, and when they speak to you, then they probably change their mindset. As you said, they will change, they change their minds, their mindset completely. And for those who are hearing uh to this late night talk, I think find find a strat find find a strategy, talk with someone. Doesn't have to be like an intentional networking. You are subconsciously you're networking, uh, but having a conversation in the hopes of getting a job. At least many of us try to do that. But yes, it is hot. I'm also on the job hunt by just keeping myself uh smiling every single time, doing other stuff to to occupy myself, and I think you you've probably did that as well when you were on the job hunt. Right? So yeah, and uh so because we were speaking of networking and this process of repeating insightful content about their expertise, connecting people

Application Numbers That Actually Work

SPEAKER_00 49:20

within their fields, and then when you work with them, what did what did they learn from from doing this whole process during your your eight week accelerator program? You've already shared your story with of two of your clients, but how what can they learn? What did they learn and how can can we learn from from it?

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Yeah, great question. So I I genuinely believe like the the LinkedIn and networking part of my eight week accelerator program is one of the most important parts of the program. Because nowadays I I do believe that LinkedIn is becoming more important than the CV.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

How so?

SPEAKER_02 50:11

LinkedIn is becoming more important um than the CV. The recruiters spend a lot of time on LinkedIn and very few seconds screening CVs, by the way. Uh at the same time, so LinkedIn and networking are also part of the pro are the part of the program that most of my students struggle with the most. And I completely understand why. Like I'm glad you mentioned like posting consistently, insightful content. I am a big believer uh in posting consistently. If you're in the job hunt, of course you don't need to become an influencer, but if you can post regularly, let's say even just once per week, it can help you immensely. That said, most of the students in my program don't feel comfortable doing it. And I think for very understandable reasons. Yeah, uh, I assume that many of them are are still working as as postdocs or in hospital, and maybe they just don't want people from their current workplace to know that they are actively looking for another job. That makes, of course, that makes perfect sense. Yeah, so posting is something I recommend, but it's definitely not a mandatory part of the program. And in fact, I would say that most of my clients in the accelerator don't post regularly. So at the same time, they still learn how to use LinkedIn strategically to boost their job search without even without posting. Because LinkedIn is much more than just a content platform, it's an incredible networking tool, it's a place where you can start conversations, start building relationships, and create opportunities. What I strongly recommend is sending the app, like the direct messages on LinkedIn. Not everyone has to know you're looking for a job, but your profile needs to be spot-on, needs to be tailored for your target roles. It has to clearly position you for the target role and speak directly to recruiters. You're not speaking to academics, you're not speaking to your PI, you're not speaking to peer reviewers, you're speaking to recruiters. And you need

LinkedIn Networking With Daily DMs

SPEAKER_02 52:46

to be consistent with your outreach, sending DMs. I also encourage my client to Leave thoughtful comments on posts from people in their field, especially those with high visibility, that may help. But the direct message is the DM part is absolutely crucial. So inside the program, I teach a framework that makes networking very sustainable, takes around 15 minutes per day. It's the one that I learned myself when I needed to network, but I felt like I didn't have the time because I was very busy with my work.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

And so my clients know exactly who they need to contact, who they need to reach out to, and what they need to write, like the exactly the words they need to use to approach those conversations. And if they stay consistent and if they can do this just like one DM per day over eight weeks, it's like you see, it's it can generate a lot of conversations, uh valuable information, and it will likely lead to some referral and eventually maybe even interviews. She told me that networking played like a crucial role in getting the job, and she had been consistently building relationships on LinkedIn. Uh, even in the weeks that that's that didn't seem to bring anywhere. She kept going, and that eventually led to an interview and then to an offer. And also another client who had never had a single industry interview before joining the program. Uh, after just three weeks in, he optimized his nickname profile to make it much more compelling for his target role. He hadn't even applied for a position yet, and he was contacted directly from a recruiter from Big Pharma. Oh wow, they scheduled an interview with him, and he was like surprised. He didn't expect that. He was ready. What do I do now? Now you gotta go. You gotta have the interview. This is so he didn't even apply. Jeez, you see, and another client like uh she reached out to a recruiter in Germany in Big Pharma, and she was told that look, the position you are trying to apply is already closed. But however, during the conversation, the recruiter mentioned that a rap another role, a different one that hadn't been advertised yet, was actually a better fit. So they had a conversation, they had a chat between each other, and that turned into a completely new opportunity for her. So there are many success stories that come from LinkedIn, uh, even when they aren't directly related to posting content. And some of the things that most of my clients uh after the program say, I didn't expect networking and LinkedIn to be so important. Of course, it's even better if you can post consistently. Yeah, that's even better. But if for any reason you you cannot or you don't want to post, you don't feel comfortable enough doing it. LinkedIn is still an incredible powerful tool. It can help you immensely. But the key is you have to learn how to use it strategically, and that's exactly uh what we teach inside the eight-week accelerator. You don't have to be an extrovert, you don't have to be a social media expert. Honestly, I'm not a social media person either. Like, I don't have Facebook, I don't have access, I use Instagram very little. Yeah, the only platform I I've really learned how to use is LinkedIn. And I had a LinkedIn account for almost 12 years before I started posting consistently. So for 12 years I didn't post. So I completely understand that the fear of posting and putting yourself out there. The first post I I posted, like I was so scared. So I completely understand that.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

When was it?

SPEAKER_02 56:57

If you have in memory, it was it went off a lot of time ago. It was like uh November 2024.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Like one and a half year ago.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Wow. I mean, uh, I do believe that LinkedIn is a powerful network and a powerful networking tool, and and I well, same as you, Andrea. I'm not a big social media thing, and I hate Facebook, but I don't use it anymore. And I just using I use LinkedIn for for just posting some stuff. I don't post it regularly, uh, because now I've been busy with one thing, but uh when when a new podcast comes out, such as this one, uh, I will post something and and then after that I just I complete ghost ghost myself, but not to see the likes, not to see the metrics, and all that. But I think having that uh feeling of okay, at least I've shared something about my knowledge about content that I think people will eventually hear. You don't need to confirm through a like or through a comment that oh you've reached out, so that that there's actually the uh the automated system that they do on LinkedIn, the the those in post impressions, they it is okay, so probably they they are hearing. So I do but I do think that LinkedIn is a is a great tool and it takes you to uh opportunities as long as you create them.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

So of course you have to be proactive and consistently creating opportunities, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Proactivity, proactivity and keeping the consistency, doing something engaging that that you also like to do, not rather than being forcing yourself to do so because otherwise then you won't be able to do, and that's that's how it works. And I do wonder as well, Andrea, you've been featured in in other shows and you've been sharing uh your work. How was it like to to be and on other shows, on other podcast interviews?

SPEAKER_02 59:14

It was great, it was nice. I always loved those uh the things that you do, guys. It's it's like amazing. Have me a podcast. I I mean I I would also love to have one, but it's so much work that I cannot even think about getting started. So I I really have a big admiration on what you all guys are are trying to do. I do believe that podcasts are like a super effective way of communicating nowadays. There are a lot of podcasts. Uh I'm very happy to to share my knowledge, and I'm very grateful for you, Luis, and for many others that are trying to share their knowledge in this format.

SPEAKER_00 59:49

Yeah, I'd like to put that that question because uh I've been hearing uh this last one you've been. I heard also other ones that you were featured on, and I noticed on one of the podcast episodes that you were on someone's podcast, and you said you said something that it was really interesting to hear, and I'd like to bring that up. That if I don't know if you have a memory, but I do believe that you've mentioned that when someone, PhD, postdocing, farmer, or any related field, gets their first job, but it's not actually their dream job. You said something quite like that having this first job of yours doesn't need to be your dream job, and so that cat that was on my mind, and I say maybe he could share some thoughts about this.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Of course. Um careers nowadays are are no longer linear as they used to be. You know, people change jobs. But I believe that you you are a job job hunt right now, right? So for your first job, statistics says from experts says that you're gonna change jobs like 15-16 times throughout your career. You're gonna work a lot of years. So, of course, how can the first job be the job of your life? It could be, but it's it's not like it's like with dating, right? It's very rare that you you marry your first girlfriend or your first boyfriend, right? Yeah, so uh the thing is what industry uh I believe that I remember what you are referring to, is that industry what industry values the most, especially in pharma, is the industry experience. So getting a job in industry, even if that's not your dream job, allows you to get this industry experience and it will make uh switching jobs much easier. I'm not saying it's gonna be a walk in the park, but it's gonna be significantly easier than landing the first job. It was the same for me. So my first job was in GMP manufacturing of gene therapies in biotech. Was uh not anywhere near my dream job, but it gave me so much. I learned so much about how industry works. Uh, I started getting into how the process works, how are the frameworks, how is the pace much faster than academia. And so finding my job in pharma, which was my second job, was was much easier than finding the first role. It took me two years to find the first role, six months to find the second role. You know, and the experience that I had, I believe it was one of the um critical factors that led the company to hire me. I applied to the same company like six times during my postdoc. I they always ghosted me. Six times. So, this is also a reminder for all of you listening: don't give up. Yeah, uh, once I had the industry experience, they hired me. So nothing else changed. It was just six months later. So getting the industry experience is very important. So if the first job will not be like the job of your dreams, but it still leads you closer to your goals, I would 100% go for it. The one question that I typically ask my clients is go back to your self-assessment where you have written down your three years' goals and ask yourself this will this new job bring me closer or more far away from where I want to be three years from now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

And I think that is a that is a great question, and I think many of us uh should think about and look back, even if you have great experience that can uh leverage uh your way into the job of your dreams as you say so, I think having that self-assessment is truly important. And I think we could also ask that question of how these experiences we had so far uh during our PhD, during our after our PhD, during the postdoc and afterwards, how will that lead to uh become a better professional and in order to reach what we actually want? So yeah, Rand Andrea, I think uh I think this has been a great conversation, and I'd like to ask you final questions of what advice do you have for PhDs and not in this case postdocs

First Industry Job Is Not Forever

SPEAKER_00 1:04:28

who are struggling with the job market right now, and then where can follow your work?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Yeah, okay, yeah, great question. I I uh speak with postdocs because I work specifically with postdocs, but I believe it will apply also for PHPs as well. Yeah, and if I have to wrap it up in one single piece of advice, it would be like think less, do more. Like I recently heard an Italian creator, I think on Instagram, uh, she was saying this in the context of personal growth. But after coaching more than 60 posts of transitioning into pharma, I think it applies perfectly also to career transitions too. So, one of the biggest drops is that people feel productive when in reality they are not moving forward at all. Like you buy another course, you organize your notes, you highlight another book, you complete another certification, you watch another webinar, and at the end of the day, it feels like you have worked hard, but nothing has actually changed because the transformation doesn't happen when you consume more information, it does not happen because you have completed a project management certification. Transformation does not happen because you took a GXP course. Those things can be helpful, but they rarely create the breakthrough by themselves. The real change happens when you change who you are, and that requires uncomfortable actions, like having difficult conversations, putting yourself out there, applying before you feel ready, networking with strangers, getting rejected multiple times, working with a coach or maybe with a therapist who can challenge your thinking instead of simply validating it, choosing experiences that force you to grow. Like ironically, some of the most stuck people I've ever met are also the most organized. Yeah, like everything is color-coded, everything is labeled, everything is optimized, but nothing meaningful happens because most people have convinced themselves that preparing is the same as doing. It's not. Preparation has value, but at a certain point it becomes another form of procrastination. It's like spending three hours to getting ready for a date and never actually leave the bathroom or the house to go to a date. So preparing for the date is not the date. At some point, you gotta get out the door, right? Yeah, so I don't really have advice for the PhDs and post-hoc listening today. I only have one question for you. The question is this are you truly working on your career, or are you just getting ready to start? Embrace the discomfort, embrace the change, embrace the growth, and let go of the version of yourself that is keeping you exactly

Think Less Do More Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:07:54

where you are.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

And and I will keep keep being active, non-stopping, networking around, doing what doing what what I can and many others can, but without feeling overstressed, feeling overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So where the where can they follow your work, Andrea? And on social media as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Yeah, thank you. It's on LinkedIn, basically. Most of my work is on LinkedIn. Uh my uh pages on the grandi PhD, and I also have a new website which just came out. Uh, it's drgrandyphd.com. So make sure you follow the website, you find all the information, and also on the LinkedIn, I share posts every day about the postdoc to pharma transition.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

And I think we can we can wrap it up. So, Andrea, thank you so much for showing and sharing valuable insight, and I think many of us will likely resonate with. And for the listeners, just reach out to to Andrea Grandi and his work. He's on LinkedIn, he's also has Dr. G development, and he'll be glad to help you out and to stand out as well. So, thank you so much for coming. And for the uh students and graduates listening to this late night talk, thank you all for tuning in, and it's been a pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

Thank you very much for having me. It was a great conversation. Thank you. Thank you.