Checked In with Splash
Welcome to Checked In with Splash. Consider this your VIP backstage pass to learn from experts about how to create meaningful experiences that drive ROI, boost engagement, and tip the scales in your favor.
Checked In with Splash
Digging into Data-Informed Events with Palmer Houchins
In this episode of Checked In, host Camille White-Stern meets with VP of Marketing at G2 Palmer Houchins.
From using data to craft G2's event strategy to using numbers to align executives around events, Palmer provides advice to marketers looking to build smarter, more effective programs.
___________________________________________________________________
If you enjoyed today's episode, let us know. Support our show by subscribing and leaving us a rating. If you want to get in touch with our team or be a guest on our show, email us at podcast@splashthat.com. We'd love to hear from you.
Follow Splash on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/splashthat-com
Listen to Using Data to Build a Third-Party Event Strategy That Gets Results with Alex Reynolds Part 1 & 2: https://splashthat.com/podcast
This is Checked In with Splash. All right, friends, welcome back to another episode of Checked In. Today, I'm so incredibly thrilled to be joined by Palmer, who is the VP of Marketing at G2. You probably have heard of G2 because it is the world's largest and most trusted software marketplace. More than 90 million people annually, including employees at all Fortune 500 companies and Splash, use G2 to make smarter software decisions based on authentic peer reviews. Palmer, thank you so much for joining me here today,. Let's just start off. We were just chatting before we started recording. I'd love to hear a little bit more about your career background, how you ended up in your role at G2, and how you became a marketer.
Palmer Houchins:Sure, sure. Well, first off, thanks for having me, thanks for the great intro and we really appreciate Splash being a partner of ours. Great to work with you all. So thanks for having me on t To answer your question.
Palmer Houchins:I started my career, actually, I studied journalism and history in college and got to the end of my degree and I was like I can't do anything with this. I can either be a professor or I kind of knew I didn't want to be a full-time journalist and so I just fell into marketing through an internship and I spent the early part of my career kind of working in music, entertainment, with a focus on kind of the digital marketing side. And it's funny I was reflecting on being here in Austin and early in my career, I think, one of the first events I signed up for I have no idea what I'm doing which I think is par for the course in terms of like, oh yeah, we're going to give the 23 year old, the like big event responsibility, who's never put on an event before and he's really disorganized, so let's let him do it. It all worked out Like, I think I you know I worried so much, I made myself sick, but everything worked out. I didn't get fired. So I spent the early part of my career doing that on the digital marketing side worked at a startup, at a magazine, worked with an agency that we worked with a lot of record labels, music festivals, that sort of thing.
Palmer Houchins:And I got to the end of that and 10, 12 years ago it was getting the tech bug, where I was like what's happening in the software space is really interesting, I'd love to get into it. I was actually applying to go back to business school to get my MBA and I was like, oh, I'll pivot and go into tech. And around that time an old colleague of mine emailed and said, hey, listen, I've started working at this company. You've probably never heard of it, but we're looking for someone with your skillset and background. And the company was MailChimp and it was very early on. It was sub 100 people. At that time my friend Mark, who's still there, was leading marketing at that time. My friend Mark, who's still there, was leading marketing at the time and they were kind of filling some brand manager roles and like verticalized approach. They wanted someone who had experience with music and entertainment and other places. And so I came in and kind of did that and that was 2012.
Palmer Houchins:And I spent the next eight years working at MailChimp and started out in a brand manager role like did everything, did product marketing, did ops, did integrated marketing, customer acquisition, all that good stuff and really like kind of got that MBA that I never got through that job and I started at a hundred people and left that close to 1500 people there, so I got to see kind of all different shapes and sizes and jumped from there to another SaaS company called Callrail. It's a phone tracking and analytics product. I was there for a few years and then another former colleague this is like story of my career. I'm just like folks you work with you, like working with Amanda. Malko was at MailChimp with me, like had joined G2, wanted me to come over and work with her on the marketing side, and so here I am at G2 three years later and it's a winding road I love that I did not know this was in my future.
Camille White-Stern:It's hard to see that far in advance, but I love to hear that background and story. Thank you for sharing, I also relate quite a bit. I also have a background in music industry. Didn't foresee myself necessarily in the B2B tech space as a marketer, but so many transferable skills. I think once you learn how to be a smart marketer in general, you can really work with any brand.
Palmer Houchins:Marketing is marketing and I think a lot of times we put up those like well, that's B2C or that's B2B and like, fundamentally, like you're marketing to humans, it's just like sort of where those humans work and how they operate is a little bit different. But I think, especially in the B2B side, we're very guilty of being like but it's B2B marketing, we've got to make it super complicated and put all these systems on it when it's like fundamentally kind of boils down to the same thing, just takes a very different form.
Camille White-Stern:Absolutely. Tell me what do you love about what you do?
Palmer Houchins:One part of what I've loved is just like working with a strong brand and being able to use that as sort of like. Not everyone's lucky enough to have that and I think G2 has built a great brand reputation over time. The one part of about G2 that's been new to me and it's been like a challenge that I've really enjoyed is that fundamentally, we're a two-sided marketplace. We're serving software buyers and we're serving software vendors or software sellers, and keeping those two things in your head as a marketer is really challenging. How do I speak to buyers? Is that going to be different in the same way as sellers? And it's sort of like wheels on wheels on wheels, and I've enjoyed that. It's been a challenge, but a good challenge kind of part of being part of G2. Now having a recognizable brand makes that a lot more manageable. If you're doing that without the brand recognition that G2 has, it becomes a little bit more challenging.
Camille White-Stern:Yeah, I think that's a fair point and also respect your appetite for healthy challenge and probably keeps you very sharp.
Palmer Houchins:Yeah, like a lot of times we're like, oh yeah, I'm just going to apply my same sort of like SaaS, like fundamentals, to G2. And like, oh, no wait, we're not Just different things like SEO at G2, it sits within the product, because that's how we drive a lot of folks there. It's not like our website is our product in a lot of ways and so it's just like kind of throws some things on your head as a marketer, especially as a SaaS marketer that you don't always know the things that you know.
Camille White-Stern:Yeah, so speaking of knowing the things that you know, you recently on LinkedIn. We're talking about data is gold Data. It's become paramount, I think, to every marketer, right? Regardless of your industry or your focus or your niche. You could be a field marketer, you could be a customer marketer, but we're all relying on data in really important ways these days. Talk to me about why, and G2 being having a vast repository of data for, as you said, the buyers, but also valuable data for the vendors, right Like?
Camille White-Stern:talk to me a little bit more about the role of data in the marketing landscape today, and then I'd love for you to kind of unpack how that finds its way and influences your marketing strategy for G2.
Palmer Houchins:Well, first off, I'm not gonna do my Matthew McConaughey impression because it's non-existent, but I like the data is the new gold thing like commercial. Just I love it. I love that data is the new gold thing like commercial. I love it. I love that Salesforce is doing that and that they're just kind of letting him be himself. But it's great. He's got a good point and Salesforce is keen to recognize that.
Palmer Houchins:I think when I look back on my career, it's like 15 or 20 years ago we didn't have the data that we have today. It was like we were so hungry for that data and then we've, over the years, finally got it. And now it's sort of like okay, what do we? We? We know what we can do with it in silos, but like, how do we stitch it all together? How do we create a narrative? So and I'm glad you asked the question the way you did, because I am thinking about it differently from a software buyer perspective Like on G2, we've got 2.5 million reviews, like we have this and, frankly, what you see on our website is like tip of the iceberg. We have lots of stuff with capture that we don't necessarily put on the website and that's just this like amazing underground oil repository here for AI to kind of farm and go through. And so that's what we've been building out a lot of AI tooling to just say, like, what sort of software insights can we extract from that and what sort of like new ways? Versus hey, I want to search for this thing, go find, like, compare, contrast, all of that. Versus just telling Monty is the name of our AI bot. Like hey, I'm a mid-market company and I need a new marketing automation solution and I want to pay about this much. And it's just like bam, here you go. It makes software buying a lot easier, but fundamentally, you've got to have the data to support it. Without that, it's a little bit empty. So that's something that's like exciting that I don't think I could have foreseen, you know, 15, 20 years ago, I think.
Palmer Houchins:On the software seller side, what's really interesting is like yes, we've got this data, we've had this data for a while, but how do we make our data first of all available and then like play together nicely with all of the different data sources that we have, and together nicely with all of the different data sources that we have? And it's so much easier said than done. We spent a whole. I had a breakfast session this morning with ZoomInfo and Snowflake and just talking about all of this, just like, here's how you can orchestrate it. Here's all those pieces.
Palmer Houchins:And as a marketer G2, we have the same challenges that everyone else has in terms of how do we do that.
Palmer Houchins:What I think we offer to software sellers and software buyers is a really unique buyer intent data signals. That's something that I think is we're seeing a lot of value in the marketplace, especially as we move to sort of like a cookie list future of like hey, we've got actual sort of it's second party data, it's our first party data that shows what software buyers are interested in, what they're doing, sort of an account level detail. That's really valuable. And the thing I like to joke about is like no one comes to G2 for fun, like no one's there, and it's like, oh, I want to see what's happening in the ERP world. They're there because they want a solution, like they're trying to find something they've been tasked with, something they need to deliver on this for their job. So that's like really being able to give those signals to software vendors to help them go connect with those software buyers and figuring out how to orchestrate that and to tie that into a bunch of different other companies is an exciting challenge.
Camille White-Stern:Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm curious to hear your perspective on data-driven events and how events fit into the broader marketing and overall go-to-market strategy for G2 today.
Palmer Houchins:I think I would look at our I would prefer the term data-informed events in terms of how I do it. I'm just thinking about it. Data-driven gives me the wrong, because the experience is still very important to us when we go out and do things. We want to create a great experience and I feel like it feels a bit mechanical when it's like data-driven. We just want to scan badge to get there.
Palmer Houchins:So it's more about what's the experience, what's I'm going to bring out. We've got kind of a multi-tiered approach, so we have some tentpole events, like Forrester, where we go out, do a booth, bring the whole team, do a big production.
Palmer Houchins:We have another sort of lane for events where it's very partner marketing driven. So Sixth Sense, zoominfo, all these companies are integration partners of ours. We'll go out to their events, work with them, essentially kind of represent G2 to their audiences and help like kind of go to market together and that's that's a really efficient way to do it. And then the last tier for us is really the kind of the more field marketing of like hey, we're going to go, you know, bring a couple of our customers and prospects together for dinner or take them to a baseball game, like do something that's interesting to just like build that one-on-one time with folks. But that's all informed by the experience feels like an experience. But the data side of it is sort of informing.
Palmer Houchins:Why are we at Forrester? Well, there's a great pool of our enterprise like prospects and customers are here. So it's great to be here to connect with them. Why do we go to SaaS? A great pool of our SMBs or mid-market customers are there. We can go connect with them in person and on down the line, like why don't we work together with partner marketing events?
Palmer Houchins:Because we've got this, we've looked at the cross-beam data, like we, we sort of know where we have a good alignment with our customer base and so we can go, do, do more together and then, like the last one I'd say, is just like our, our virtual side. So webinars and kind of virtual events that we do that still are really for us, are almost more like content plays than they are event plays. But yeah, we love to have folks who kind of show up and learn come to our webinars, and office hours is what we call our customer focused one, to kind of come in and and learn more about G2. But frankly, we just want that content to live on, to like repurpose it in other areas and have it there as a resource for the future. So all of that sort of comes together into this perfectly messy events play.
Camille White-Stern:All the other channels that marketing and or go-to-market channels that your events can feed content is a huge one. So love to hear how you're leveraging your virtual and webinars to fuel kind of the content strategy.
Palmer Houchins:Yeah, I mean we do it with those they live on. I mean our virtual event. We do that every December. It's called Reach and I mean it's on demand. The minute we finish it we want to have as many folks attending live as we can, but it's there.
Palmer Houchins:We also have a global audience, so it's like I understand someone in APAC is not going to be able to be there for noon central time when we kick things off, so that's a great way to reach them. But I think, more broadly, for us it's about repurposing it in different channels, so like creating social clips that we can use, creating blog posts, creating content around that, and even like thinking about how we like, for example, the case study that we did today here with Sprout Social at Forrester like next week it'll be up on our blog is sort of like a we'll have the deck, we'll have some commentary, all that. It doesn't have to be a recording of that, but that message holds true and so I think you can kind of carry through, like I mentioned earlier, that experience side of the event, like whatever is at the core of that experience.
Camille White-Stern:that sort of shines through content through a number of different channels. Yeah, and I also think content when you're repurposing events to kind of fuel your content strategy, it's super effective and efficient. When you think about reaching a broader kind of like top of funnel audience, talk to me a little bit about how you think about making sure you're addressing like the full funnel kind of the whole customer or like buyer life cycle and leveraging events strategically that way, I mean.
Palmer Houchins:I think a lot of folks come into events and they're just like it's all about badge scans and like how many prospects did like, how many meetings did we set? And that's a great comment Like we'll certainly go back and look at those numbers after Forrester to see how we did there. But it's also like how many customers did we touch here? How many like renewals do we potentially influence for lack of a better term like influencers or like broader decision makers Did we just like have a conversation with?
Palmer Houchins:And so I was actually we, you know hosted a dinner with some of our customer prospects last night and I was walking back to the hotel with our CEO and it's just like he's very community driven. It's like it's just great to be in this community to connect with folks Like these are the folks that we'll continue working with now and in the future, and so it's it's less about what's the deal that we're going to sign tomorrow, which I mean it's great, and I like like this is no, uh, not trying's also relationship building and building that up for the future. And even within the sort of B2B marketing, sort of SaaS world that's here like building relationships for our own careers, even of like connecting with folks from a networking and professional kind of growth standpoint is really cool to see as well.
Camille White-Stern:Absolutely. It's all about relationship building. At the end of the day, when we're thinking about marketing or sales, or customer success, it's really it's all based on having that strong relationship. I feel like this is a good moment to kind of dig a little bit deeper into how you think about measuring success. How are you tying your event strategy and marketing strategy to your bigger business objectives and goals for your revenue organization?
Palmer Houchins:Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to look at it from both that brand and demand lens. And what I mean by that is does it make sense if we got nothing out of whatever event that it is? Would it make sense for us to show up there from a brand perspective? Would we be brand building there in kind of a way? And so that's just like a fundamental, like yes, that's table stakes, we've got to be there. And then you sort of get into the demand lens of like okay, well, how do we want to measure?
Palmer Houchins:It's different for every event. Really, like somewhere like Sastr, we meet with a lot of our existing customers, and Somewhere like Sastr we meet with a lot of our existing customers, and so it's like what was that influence on renewals? Do we have a meeting with Sastr? What did that do? What happened there? Same way for here, sort of opening up new opportunities with enterprise customers. We've seen that happen a lot here at Forrester and so it's really like trying to tie it back into that customer or prospect life cycle.
Palmer Houchins:And what did that influence? It's not going to be the deciding factor. Like no one's. No one's asking for a docu sign after they come to our booth to to get started with G2, but we're opening up that conversation and helping pushing it forward. And and going back to that, it's just it's so much easier to get that conversation started or to progress that when you're doing that over over a beer at a happy hour or hour or sort of breaking bread together at dinner versus like hey, can I get you on a Zoom, can I get you on a Zoom, you just can't replace that experience. In my opinion, and in person it's just so much better.
Camille White-Stern:Yeah. One more question to just dig in here. I know you have a fantastic team that is really executing these strategies. Shout out to Sunny.
Palmer Houchins:Sunny's the best. Sunny is amazing. Sunny and KP are our mighty two-person events team. Yes, KP Can't forget KP.
Camille White-Stern:I'm curious as their leader, as a marketing leader at G2, I always try to be cognizant of different stakeholders are going to care a little bit more or a little bit less about different metrics or KPIs. What are the metrics you care most about? And I'm curious, like, at your very kind of, like, high level executive leadership position, what are you kind of communicating to your counterparts? Obviously, sunny and KP are reporting to you. You're probably sharing results and reports more broadly at a higher level. What do you care most about? And then, what are you kind of communicating to your counterparts in leadership just to make sure they understand not only the value of the work of your team but the points on the board that your team is driving?
Palmer Houchins:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it starts for me like goes back to the sort of the budgeting process of like making sure that we've got the right balance there. Are we underserving or overserving ourselves from all the different and I think of events as a channel? So it's like what's our events budget versus what's our digital budget, versus where are we spending in these other places field marketing, et cetera and then getting alignment there. So there's like buy-in, because you don't want to have your CFO to just be like why are we spending that amount on it? Like you know, blah, blah, blah. And so getting that alignment up front and really a lot of times too, like events at least the bigger ones like this one, like SAST or some of the others like you're making those decisions a year out. So you've got to kind of have that executive buy-in, typically something like this, like SaaS job I'll talk to our CEO about it just to make sure that we're aligned, that we want to have a presence, what do we want to go do? And then it sort of cascades from there.
Palmer Houchins:So we've got this rough budget, rough planning, sort of rough calendar set at the beginning of the year, and that makes everything go a lot smoother. So then you get into the year and you're more reporting on. Well, how did it go? Like, what were the conversations we had? Who did we meet with? Like, what results can we show? How did it influence? Like we typically look back over a longer period of time to see how it influenced revenue or sort of closed one opportunities, and that just helps us tell a story that's like done the right way. It's sort of a virtuous cycle where it's like okay, you can start building on the ones that are working and pulling off the ones that aren't working. But it starts with, like, getting that balance sort of right at the get-go, not if you over-index or under-index. Then you might be setting yourself up to look like, oh, we've spent way too much money on events or we're way under-invested. Like you know, if you're just doing two small events, it's like why are we bothering with this? Or what are we?
Camille White-Stern:doing. What's the? What was really the point? Yeah, I'm curious just because you've had such an extensive career and, as you said, from from MailChimp on you've, you've worn so many different hats under as a marketer, for for marketers, or for, specifically, event marketers who are maybe not don't have such a sophisticated event strategy or are looking to develop a really mature event-led growth motion. Or, like you said, just like balance the budgets, like make sure you know your events channel is performing the way it should, based on investment, compared to other channels. Like what would be your advice to those marketers who are trying to get that balance Right?
Palmer Houchins:Yeah, I'll give two pieces of advice. One is to marketing leadership that like if events are going to be a part of your strategy in an informed way, then like you need to have a very experienced and like seasoned events person working with you. So, like Sonia was the first person I hired when I came to G2, just because I knew from talking to Amanda, our previous CMO, that like events were going to be a focus and there was not an events team. So it's like great, I need to bring in someone who's going to get this. And I think a lot of times, like I mentioned earlier, what you see happen is like, oh, we'll go, like events will be an afterthought and we'll go hire someone who's super, super young and inexperienced and they're going to go do this because it's events, it's not how complicated can it really be? Which is just a bad approach. And that's not to say there aren't opportunities for folks who are early in their career to advance and learn more in events. But I think a lot of times folks look at it the wrong way. So that would sort of be my like advice to like marketing leadership, of like don't undervalue it and make sure you get someone good.
Palmer Houchins:And then sort of my own lens in, for, for marketers who have an interest in events, is that every every great event marketer I've worked with and I've had the like pleasure of working with several throughout my career they're just like completely obsessed with the attention to detail and like nothing gets past them. And so I think if, like that's you and you feel like I've got that, I'd love like thinking about every different piece. Nothing's going to get past me. I'd like, whenever my boss asked me about something, I'm going to already have anticipated it, which is like plays out every day. That's just like you're going to make a great event marketer and could lean in there. Now there's other parts of event marketing that are they're important, but that's like a fundamental must have. I've never seen anyone who's really good at it who doesn't just have that like obsessive attention to detail and super organized and just like ready to go all the time.
Camille White-Stern:Love that Gotta love the details.
Palmer Houchins:Absolutely.
Camille White-Stern:Okay, Palmer, I'm going to be mindful of your time. You are an important, busy person. You are a VP of marketing and there are probably a lot of other, especially if you are a marketer marketing to marketers why do you say yes to attending an event? I think attendees are much more discerning with their time. These days. It's hard to get people to show up, and we hear from our customers all the time they want to know like their biggest challenge is still driving attendance to events. I think that's a very relatable thing and I've been even talking to some marketers here at Forrester and they're like well, what are you doing to drive people to your strategy suite and get people to your happy hour, to your dinner? What makes you say yes to an event and what are your thoughts on like how to drive attendance today?
Palmer Houchins:What is working? Sure, well, I mean. I think the first thing is sort of acknowledging the the like topsy turvy environment that we've been in for the past five years of like we had sort of what was go back to 2019. It's sort of like established cadence, like I do this that a lot of us were more in the office then, so it was sort of like events were good, like I can check out of the office for three days and then COVID hits and everything gets turned upside down and I think really like 2021, 2022, when things started coming back online.
Palmer Houchins:There's this real hunger of like I'm sick of sitting at my house on zoom all the time. I want to like get back out into the world. And we're far enough removed from that Now, where what you're seeing is kind of folks who are just like because of Zoom, work follows me everywhere and I go to an event and I just sit in the hotel room and work and you're like why do I want to go to that event? So I think, knowing all that, you have to sort of like recognize that journey that we've been on. There's this one aspect of like okay, like if you're going to come to the event, you don't want it to be one of those events where I feel like they, they, they, they need to spend the rest of the time in their hotel room. If that's who you're like pitching to, like that's a bad, that's a bad promise. So I think a lot of it is going back to that sort of experience aspect of it of like what's in it for me, like who are the folks I'm going to meet with? Like what is the? What's the content, what am a go to whatever game or experience that matters.
Palmer Houchins:And I think the smarter folks get about that, the better that you'll see. And then I think it's also smart to just like understand what feels like a cattle call and what doesn't Like there's certain things where it's just like, oh, you're just trying to get as many people packed into a room as you can. Like doesn't work. And I think folks have gotten better about figuring out like what are we going to actually be able to drive, say, like VP plus two?
Palmer Houchins:Versus like what's for, what's for the practitioner, like what's for that? And I think getting smarter about that because like frankly, that executive group like wants to be around each other and learn from each other, and likewise for maybe that more practitioner, earlier career folks who want to like meet folks who they're going to be able to kind of go advance their career with each other, and I mean I think an event like this you'll see all forms of it. It's a big enough one, but then you'll see stuff that's like built off it. It's more for like hey, if you're a BDR here and you just want to connect with other BDRs who are getting started, there's a great opportunity to do that versus are you a CMO, like you're going to be a little bit more selective with your time and what you commit to.
Camille White-Stern:That's helpful, always helpful. You know, we were always trying.
Palmer Houchins:I mean, if I had it all solved, I would tell you that you know we've got it. Uh, we've got it all figured out, but uh.
Palmer Houchins:I think those, those principles work. And I think it's mostly sort of that, that macro effect of like where are we post COVID? And sort of like I think we're figuring out what's the what's the right amount versus the wrong amount. It's also like there's busy times and less busy times when it comes to sort of event season, and we're in the midst of kind of one right now, and then it kind of takes the summer off and then fall gets busier again. That's for us Like we do our virtual event in December, because there's hardly any events competition in between Thanksgiving and Christmas. So for us that was an opportune time for us to go do something virtually when folks are mostly kind of in one place. Now the holidays are going on, you got other distractions, but still you don't have to worry about oh, what are this? Four other events going on.
Camille White-Stern:Yeah, standing out's a little bit easier.
Palmer Houchins:Absolutely.
Camille White-Stern:All right, Palmer, you are a wealth of knowledge. Thank you so much. How can our listeners stay in touch with you and, just you know, follow the work that you and your team are doing?
Palmer Houchins:Sure, well, I'm on LinkedIn. I enjoy posting there and connecting with folks, so you can find me there. And then I write a lot on G2.com. So just head over to G2.com, look for our blog and follow me there.
Camille White-Stern:Amazing. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for letting me do a little live brain pick.
Palmer Houchins:This is my first live recording of a podcast, so I've got the Zoom aspect of it way down. But real life, going back to events, it's just totally. It's a new experience.
Camille White-Stern:We got to get you on more of these Again. Thank you so much. Folks, if you enjoyed this episode, please let us know, give us a rating, give us a shout on LinkedIn or email us at podcast at splash thatcom. Definitely be sure to follow Palmer on LinkedIn as well and check out g2.com to just stay in touch with the amazing work that he's doing. If you are a new listener here, my name is Camille Whitester and I lead experiential marketing at Splash. We do this show to connect with marketing and events professionals and just really deeply understand their strategy and share best practices with you. So until next time, take care, folks.
Palmer Houchins:All right thanks.
Camille White-Stern:All right, folks. That's it for today. If you enjoyed today's episode or are a fan of the podcast in general, please let us know. Support this show by subscribing on your preferred podcast platform and, while you're at it, leave us a rating. We so appreciate feedback we receive about the show. So if you ever want to get in touch, you can email us at podcast at splash thatcom or, better yet, join our Slack community where you can message me directly. Last but certainly not least, if you're a marketer using events to help your business grow and want to learn how Splash's platform can take your events to the next level, like we have for MongoDB, UCLA, Okta, Zendesk or even Sweetgreen, visit our website at wwwsplashthatcom. Until next time, take care.