Norm Chait - VP of U.S. Marketplace, Perion

In Episode 13 of this season’s Digital and Dirt podcast, Ian welcomes Norm Chait, VP of U.S. Marketplace at Perion, a global provider of digital advertising services. to discuss the evolution of Out of Home advertising, its integration with programmatic and digital platforms, and the creative, data-driven approaches transforming the industry.

Breakdown 

0:00 – 1:54 Introduction, proposal story, and early passions

1:55 – 5:05 Getting Started in Advertising

5:06 – 8:06 Alcohol Brands & Real-World Learning

8:07 – 16:05 Choosing OOH Over TV

16:06 – 22:27 Most Memorable Campaigns

22:28 – 34:32 Entering Programmatic OOH

34:33 – 53:24 What’s Next: Perion, Retail Media, and More

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

I'm Ian Delamore, and this is Digital& Dirt.

SPEAKER_01: 0:10

I appreciate adult beverage, but yeah, there's obviously everything in moderation, but it's just funny that, and this wasn't by design, but my ex-kid, I was at a small shop, I worked on a variety of different distilled spirits.

SPEAKER_02: 0:22

Coachella just ended a couple of months ago, and it's like, that's the campaigns that get spoken about the most. That's the viral aspect of it.

SPEAKER_01: 0:32

and you start to make these connections, but you realize it's bigger than just how to pump. It's using technology in a way to solve a problem we never had access to.

SPEAKER_02: 0:49

back guys my next guest this is gonna be fun i've known him for a very long time so we'll have a lot of fun stories to tell he proposed to his wife on a billboard and she said yes so that's how we know out of home works i think we should build a case study i think that'd be brilliant he loves to cook he almost chose to go to culinary school instead of out of home he loves to travel which obviously travel equals great food and he used to be a professional mime as a kid And he doesn't want to go there, but we will. My good friend, VP of US Marketplace at Perion, Norm Chait. Good to see you. Likewise. Nice to be here, Ian. Thank you very much. We've known each other for how long? I remember my first pitch ever, and we're going to go into your journey, but I remember my first pitch ever to your star-studded all-star team, if you think back on that team. And a lot of them are still in the space, but walking into that room, seeing you, Norm, and it was just kind of like, all right, Norm's the easy one. I got Keith Klein in the back. I got Sarah Teachout. Just throw some shout outs there. I got Beth. So, I mean, how much fun was that?

SPEAKER_01: 1:54

Yeah, I mean, that was definitely the heyday. I mean, the good news is we're still having fun. I think this is, you alluded to this, you know, our connection being, you know, as long as it has probably 20 plus years, I think that's not counting. At 20, probably safer for me to do that. But absolutely, it was just tons of fun. I think we were... Not that we were pioneers, but I feel like we were on this sort of cusp of trying to elevate the out-of-home story every single day, feeling the struggle every single day because we're like, how do we get to the big boy table? How do we get bigger budgets? How do we just... illustrate the excitement that we all had, the passion that we all had to clients and agencies that we're working with and blue chip brands who were starting to poke at it. And obviously people have been using it forever and ever, all this form of advertising out there, but we always kind of felt like, you know, the afterthought. So we had this really great group of folks, this fun team who love working together. I think that was sort of the thread that just was always unbroken. And it is to this day, like we see each other 20 plus years later and we pick up right where we left off and we're remember those late nights. And God, when I started, I had to go to a computer room to actually build a flow chart. And hopefully somebody, you know, there was one available that was like, all right, I'll come back later. Now that's just hard to even fathom, but a lot of fun, but still having fun. So hence why we're still doing it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:18

Yeah. We're going to go deeper into that conversation when we get to that point in the journey for sure. But you proposed to your wife and I've known this story, but what, how did your wife take that? Cause I know my wife, I'll never forget this moment, but LSU was in the national championship and we were like walking in. And for some reason there was like a concert that happened. And then this guy in this section like got down on one knee. And I just remember my wife saying, if you ever propose to me that way, like it's a hard no. And like our relationship's over. So you took it to a whole nother level and dropped it off the board.

UNKNOWN: 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:50

I made it public for sure, you know, and probably one of the largest stages in the world. I mean, that wasn't directly in the heart of Times Square. It was just off of Times Square, obviously, 42nd and 9th, I believe it was. So just just off. And I mean, so a ton, a ton of people. She thought we're going to dinner with friends. And, you know, I had this thing posted the day or two before. And, you know, at first she thought we're making a turn in the corner. I was like, hey, did you ever see one of these before? And as she left off, I sounded, I dropped it on me. And that's coming up on 20-something years later, too. Not that I stopped counting to 20, but I start to forget after 20 how many years it's been. So it's definitely a case study for out of home. It was a beautiful moment. I love that. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 4:36

my wife and I actually just celebrated our 18th anniversary. anniversary yesterday, whenever this podcast drops. Yeah, for sure. My mother's day and all that. So yeah. And I see that big sharing of the holiday. All right. We're going to save the last bullet point for the end for sure. So you're not getting out of that one. Let's talk about your journey. So majored in marketing and advertising and you got an internship. Tell us about that. Tell us where the passion began to kind of evolve into why Norm is who he is.

SPEAKER_01: 5:05

Yeah, I appreciate that. It was definitely... As I was going through business school, I think the one thing that I kept gravitating towards were the advertising and marketing side of that business. And just really enjoyed how marketers tell stories, how they connect with consumers. And at the time, it wasn't an Adam Holmes-specific track. It was more so just like, how do we excite people about brands and make those connections? And the... at Baruch, which is where I studied here in New York City. They had really comprehensive marketing programs. We actually were writing our own commercials and actually shooting them in studios. It was a really nice immersion into that space. I just continued to find it. This was something I really enjoyed and was passionate about. I was able to actually get an internship at the time. It was Bakersfield Local Bates, which evolved to lots of different iterations over the years, but landed an internship on the Millard genuine draft account. So imagine how excited I was in my college years to be on a major beer brand. And they were literally closets full of cases of beer that we wanted to make sure we understood the product. Yeah, of course. That part was very convenient. And working with 20-somethings who at the time were like, who are these adults who are building all these crazy plans? And I'm just this kid who doesn't you know, what I was doing. But I quickly learned that, you know, just how to find consumers, how to connect with them, how to tell those stories, and actually being closer to the creative too, because at the time, creative agencies and media agencies were very closely linked. So being able to see the entire thread was a really strong learning experience for me. And also, in some ways, being a bit of a focus group for them, because I was sort of the target. So they would have these... designations for different type of drinkers, you know, A, B, C, and D. And, you know, an A drinker is maybe a couple of beers a week and all the way through D where you do a case a week. You know, and salespeople would come in and meet with our supervisors and planners and they would walk them through this categorization. And when they got to the D category, they're like, how does somebody do a case a week? And they would call me in like, all right, here's Norm. Okay. Let him walk you through. I explained they, they didn't get the gig, but they were definitely part of the contributing, be drinking, you know, team. But when you break it down day by day, and then Thursday, Friday, Saturday rolls around and got with the boys, like next thing you know, you, Pretty much killed it. Okay. So it was fun to be living the brand while actually working on it. And then from there, I realized that that actually turned into a real gig after my internship, which is why I always encourage my boys to get those internships. This is a great way to get in and start to understand what you're passionate about and make those connections, learn something along the way, and build on it for your future. So that's how it all started. And then we moved on to other shops, other places.

SPEAKER_02: 8:06

Yeah. And such a great opportunity to like, obviously my journey is all over the place as far as internships worked at a beach and water park, like five-star resort, then worked in, in baseball for the Braves. And it really, to your point, like for our young, you and I are, well, I'll say I'm old, but I'm older. Yeah. So I encourage it all the time. Like go out there, like get, get some wild internships, figure it out because you know, nothing's worse than you go get your first job and you're like, this is awful. Yeah. But in your case, you truly found your passion and kind of the uniqueness that is the ad space. It's also it'll suck you in. And you're like, you know, if you wanted to go off to med school or become a lawyer, it's like, don't get into the ad industry because you will get sucked in because it's so much fun. And I love that because you're you got to be at the pulse. And, you know, so when you your next phase, it's kind of like a theme here, Norm. And I know you say you're not a

SPEAKER_01: 9:01

raging alcoholic. No, I appreciate an adult beverage. But yeah, there's obviously everything in moderation. But it's just funny that, and this wasn't by design, but my next gig, I was at a small shop. I worked on a variety of different distilled spirits, Johnny Walker brands, simple malt scotches. So there is a little bit of a theme going on or like this is just sort of fortuitous the way it worked, but also a little more challenging to sample that at the level that maybe... we were experiencing the Miller brands at the time, but definitely helped me understand maybe a more refined palette for different target audiences, different set of media that you would have to apply. So like that was actually interesting for me is, you know, while it's a similar category, there's definitely different approaches and you have to just kind of pivot to understand where you're going to make those connections and, you know, resonate with your core consumers. But yeah, there definitely was a theme, I think, after that. And of course, there were some other brands and insurance brands, but, you know, Everyone needs insurance, but how exciting is that to talk about, really, as compared to the soul spirits and field testing and all the things that we used to do? And then from there, I pivoted to Amirati Pure Swing Tests on the McCarty account. So yes, there is definitely a bit of a theme, but also a very... Different type of brands with a lot of history, you know, and it was interesting to see that as much as like the distilled spirits category was evolving and all those super premium latkes were coming out and Absolute was on the back cover of every single magazine, you know, parties were... Yeah, I mean, it just, you know, was that was really the heyday. And I was on a very print heavy business because broadcast was off the table for brands in those categories. So heavy, heavy print and trying to, you know, fight for those back covers with, you know, when there were locked positions with brands like Absolute. So being able to build that over a few years on that business was another sort of evolution of like, how do we create a dominant presence in the advertising world. And the mailroom guys used to literally every day roll up with dollies of checking copies of magazines. And so I was almost buried by magazines because we were just in every single publication you can imagine. But again, that was another pivot to understand. In that time, in a very super premium vodka generation, how does a brand like Bacardi break through? And playing that premium... you know, still spirit category. So that was another fun, fun stint. But again, never really, like we did some out of home there. I know getting to the out of home phase of the career.

SPEAKER_02: 11:36

And to jump in there, we, a great episode, if you folks want to go back and listen, but Sophie Kelly, who was a CMO of Diageo, phenomenal. And I, you know, all joking aside, like Miller, you know, Johnny Walker, Bacardi, like especially the first two were, I think that's the fun part about being on an account and you working across all facets, not just out of home, but the multimedia is there's a story behind it, right? There's a history behind where it was founded. How did it start? Where is it distilled? What is the family history behind it? So I think oftentimes, that's the fun part about advertising. Like, yes, Absolute had... And side note, that's actually how I ended up fallen in love with out of home is all those magazines that you used to have. I used to, my brother and I would cut them out and like paste them around our room, tape them up. And then we were almost like modern day bill posters at the time is we would like remove them. And every time absolute would put one of those amazing, you know, back of the magazine ads, but it's, it, it is fun to be able to kind of take a brief that has so much history in it. I mean, you and I just got back from our industry conference and I'll let you kind of tell the story, but you know, well-known celebrity from, you know, always sunny in Philadelphia started this whiskey rye brand and that's a fun story. So the, so touch on that a bit, like the being able to work across all media types early in your career while getting these very historical briefs oftentimes.

SPEAKER_01: 13:10

Yeah. I mean, I think having that as a foundation was definitely very valuable because as I, eventually pivoted into much more of a focus in and out of home. Like having that foundation was really valuable to me because I was able to understand when plans were being built, you know, what was the rationale, what was getting priority, where were the dollars going and what was the thought process behind that. So having that insight, even when I was then, you know, really diving into a more specific track around out of home allowed me to tell that story that much better and really figuring out where does that piece fit. So knowing that there are different modeling techniques and solutions that brands are leaning on to understand how to make those connections, figuring out do we have the right inputs to have a holistic view of a campaign, factoring in what we know about those brands, their history, who they appeal to the most, and finding those right moments. You know, everything has a place. So being able to figure out where each touch point can live, sometimes challenging, but also being able to have that perspective, because I think sometimes, you know, when we still see it, there's still very siloed approaches to a lot of media decisions. So, you know, in those years, even being close to the creative process was incredibly valuable. The media team was actually invited to the creative pitches and the storyboard sessions, because we can actually see, you know, the reactions of brand teams and where they see their brands and who their core customers are and how they want to speak to them. So that how we speak to them piece translates to, is it a radio spot? Is it a back cover of a fashion magazine? Is it a high-profile spectacular in Times Square or somewhere on somebody's journey? And sometimes it's all of the above, but being able to understand the role that each channel plays I think it's something that I was privileged to be a part of and then take that learning into a much more focused approach that I'm in.

SPEAKER_02: 15:14

Yeah. Inside Note Kids, he did this all while not having a programmatic platform or digital technology. Old school, for sure. Old school, yeah. A lot of dots on the maps, a lot of rolling up the sleeves. I love that.

SPEAKER_00: 15:27

Yeah, I

SPEAKER_01: 15:27

had a yellow pad, a pencil, and a phone on my desk. And like I mentioned earlier, we had to go to a computer room to like maybe put something together on like prettier than that. So times have changed.

SPEAKER_02: 15:38

Yeah, but it does become the theme of where you are today in your career. But before we jump to it, this is where you hit your gauntlet, right? You're 20 plus years in the specialized out-of-home role. And that all started at, you know, famous Ogilvy Mindshare. So what was that decision where it was like out of all the media, most people at the time would jump to TV because it's sexy and glamorous. But you chose that.

SPEAKER_01: 16:05

Yeah, it's a great question. And there was definitely moments throughout my more traditional planning and buying of all formats of media that I kept. hearing certain things played back consistently from brand teams that, you know, we might have multi-million dollar TV campaigns in market and print campaigns and all sorts of other channels. And maybe we would do some sort of, you know, experiential thing on the Metro North platform where people were hired, like, you know, the jet packs of coffee and like in people's commutes, I think it was a Maxwell house effort we were doing. And like the thing that got played back the most was that hundred K thing that maybe we did way back when, uh, Like that's what everybody talked about versus the millions of dollars we were spending on other channels. Like, you know what, maybe there's something to this like outdoor thing. And that was just a consistent experience that I've had. So anytime we, we activated sort of, you know, these experiential capabilities or some sort of cool execution or bad at home that made the most impact that got picked up by, you know, news outlets, potentially like brands were talking about it. So yeah, When the opportunity to pivot to Ogilvy from Alamorati came up, there were some options like, do I go broadcast? Do I go traditional media, stay with some of the teams that were going in that direction? Or do I do this out-of-home thing? I'm like, it was Ogilvy. Ogilvy was like a behemoth at the time, really established brand. And it was like an out-of-home specific role. I was like, you know what? I think based on what I've experienced, anytime I've done out-of-home, I think this is the thing to lean into. And I... You know, 20 plus years, I've not, you know, haven't looked back. It's the right, it was the right choice. I met all those people you, you know, you riled off their names before and still in touch with them today. It was just a beautiful foundation for, I think, you know, what this industry's experience is just like that. Building something really cool, continuing to layer in sophisticated capabilities. Of course, those came later, but just diving into it and owning those experiences was like a ton of fun for me.

SPEAKER_02: 18:05

Yeah. And it's always been the people. We talk about it all the time, whether it's investors that are dived deep into or outsiders kind of better understanding this space. A lot of the tech folks, even the one you work for today, there's a lot of curiosity behind it. And one of the one things that I always mention, and I said it to nauseam this past week up in Boston at our conference was, it's the people. The people that you and I know... they're still in the space and they're in the space for a purpose. It's not that they can't get a job somewhere else. Well, maybe a couple of them, but it's really because they're passionate about it. But I guess going back to your, your question and you being on the agency side for so long, like, and still to this day, like an out of home campaign is always more impactful. Like Coachella just ended a couple of months ago. And it's like, that's the campaigns that get spoken about the most. That's the viral aspect of it, you know? And now I'll, you know, the role of social and out of home playing together, you know, Lamar owns a colossal media handpain company and a big portion of why they're successful is that the virality behind a TikTok video, behind a snap, behind an Instagram. Why do you think still the industry, I want to say struggles, but doesn't get a larger fair share. And it's kind of like to your point back in the day, like millions of dollars spent on TV. And then it was like a hundred thousand was thrown out of home. but the out of home had the most impact and conversation around it. And I know this is a question that you probably struggle with. And I know I've struggled with for the last 20 years. Like why?

SPEAKER_01: 19:41

Yeah, it's a head-scratcher for sure, I think. And I'm always surprised and delighted by the fact that anytime you put a celebrity on a billboard and then you show their reaction to them seeing it for the first time on Sunset or wherever the street is, they're awed by it. They're like, oh my God, I didn't realize how huge this thing is. Now, amazing. There's something about it that I don't know that we've ever been able to truly put our finger on, but it's that kind of reaction from even a celebrity. They're everywhere. They... But that somehow speaks to the charm that we have in our space. So it's a great question. I don't know that we've solved why we aren't getting a larger share. I mean, it's always like, oh, we don't have the right measurement or we don't have this. We actually have amazing measurement. And I'm sure you've covered this in the past. But these are the things that we're out there talking about in a major way. I think we're starting to see growth and we're starting to see... We don't usually have a bad meeting. It's just getting the meeting sometimes is the hardest part. But just the fact that we can measure outcomes to the degree that we just never had in the days of McCarty and those other opportunities, we just couldn't prove out what we were doing. Yes, we had a lot of talk value on that platform and handing out Maxwell's coffee or whatever it might have been. But the fact that we can actually prove we're exposed and actually went to a place and took an action. These are things that we've been doing for quite some time now. And it's still a surprise to many brand people that like, Oh, you can do that. You can be more full funnel, even in some cases, a performance channel. Like, so I'm confident that we will get there. I'm frustrated how long it's taken us to get even to this point, but I'm super excited about the fact that we can actually have that conversation. Yeah. Which is why, maybe why we're also doing it because like, It just gets better. We have more to talk about. So maybe we're all like, maybe this is going to be the year where they finally realize

SPEAKER_02: 21:42

the thing. Well, and to your point, always sunny in Philadelphia, Charlie day, one of the writers, he obviously was on main stage. He's founded four walls, which is an American Irish whiskey brand, but he even said it on, on main stage. He was like, if you have an out of home billboard, whether you're a small company, large company or not, like out of home proves that you've made it. And I think the funniest thing that he said, he goes, and he was probably half, half joking, but probably serious is he said when he read the script for a fistfight, he was like, wait, I know that they're going to have to put billboards up and I get to be on a billboard with ice cube in LA. And he was like, that was the coolest thing. So I had to point it's, it's always so memorable and everyone's talking about it.

SPEAKER_01: 22:23

So, so we got that going for us, which is

SPEAKER_02: 22:25

nice.

UNKNOWN: 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 22:27

And this is where you and I met each other. So you began to run MediaVest, running their out-of-home practice for 14 years. Again, that's when you and I connected. And to your point, I loved that time. And I think we're still there, but I think we're starting to phase out of it because we've solidified that. But I just remember, Norm, every time you're like, hey, if you ever... And you said it in a very stern way, but like, hey, because we need this. And I'm sure it was every media owner that came through. It was always like, hey, come in, bring us a... the most outlandish, coolest idea. And we may not hit that idea, but at least we know that those capabilities. And I just remember one of my favorite agencies to prep for it. I'm not telling you this because you're a very long industry friend and that you're on the podcast right now. But I just remember you were one of the most fun folks that I got to present to because you always challenged. You're like, don't come in here with like what your new inventory is like. That's fine. Like I can get that on an email, but like come in. And it's funny, our producer, Faith, who heads up our marketing team, I'll pull up some of my old decks, which side note were, they were awful now that you look back at them. But the ideas that folks and not just Lamar, but others, Clear Channel out front and all the other folks in the space, I always appreciated that about you because you were helping challenge the industry to push forward. You were always saying like, hey, go find those tech partners, right? okay, you can stream live tweets. We'll come in and tell us how Heineken can stream live tweets for their fighter. There's another liquor brand that you represented, a

SPEAKER_01: 24:00

beer brand. Yeah, actually, there was a good run on Heineken too. But I think that's our job. We need to be able to... Again, out of home generally has got a very limited exposure within brands. I used to When I was on the agency side, I always said the good news is they don't know what we do and the bad news is they don't know what we do. So at the CC level, when the CEO of an agency is talking to the CEO of a major blue chip brand within our portfolio, are they leaning in saying, oh, you really need to get involved with that at home? And then I'm like, So they kind of left us to our own devices, which was good because we can push and innovate and do what we have to do, but we weren't getting the exposure. At the same time, they weren't saying, you know, you need to be here and here's why. So we were kind of left to our own devices. So we kind of never, we're always kind of under the radar and it was on us to challenge our partners to bring us ideas. And because otherwise we're just going to show them photo sheets of billboards and like, yeah, there's a great board on 995. Like you should buy it. It's great. But like, that's not going to get anybody excited. We need to understand like, what can you bring us about your inventory and your markets or how you're, you're, you know, activating those units and especially as they become digital, that's when we got to know each other. Suddenly that opened up a wide range of creative possibilities. You know, the production issues used to be a bigger issue. So that's no longer a point of contention. It's like, no, let's leverage this space in this bigger way. And Lamar, to your credit, you blew out a ton of inventory really, really quickly. So I was able to start to scale that story and help clients understand the value proposition. So all those things got us better conversations with our internal clients. So we needed to to push, or at least I felt I needed to push. I challenged my team, like, this is your job. Take the meetings from our partners. When your client actually asks you, like, so what's new out there? And you don't have an answer. like good luck getting another, another session with that, with that person. So if you're bringing ideas like, Oh, we just met with this cool partner and here's what they do. And here's why it's great for your brand. And let us test it. We have to do, we're doing that today. We have to do that.

SPEAKER_02: 26:13

Cause I'm going to ask you what, what's the, your favorite campaign that you worked on it at media vest, but I'm going to start with the most bizarre pitch that I recall. And I won't call the guy's name out, but he was always the guy in the back of the room that was like, really? Can we really do this? So it allowed me to prepare even more. And I know you know who I'm talking about. But I remember I pitched this dog food brand that you guys represented. And I wanted to come in because I was like, I needed to make Norm proud. So I had my creative team mock up a billboard with this dog brand. And it was underneath. We turned it into a pop-up dog shop. And then somehow I met with this RFID technology company that I was like, okay, under the board, you're going to tap your phone with your dog, take a picture. It's going to stream live to the digital. But then the RFID is going to drop out a sample of that dog treat. And I just never, I'll never forget. I still have that deck. And I remember the guy in the back of the room was like, so can you tell me specifically how that RFID would trigger? And it was just like the complexities and the questions that were asked. And I'm like, dude, this was just a wild idea. But

SPEAKER_01: 27:17

how about you? I mean, let's see. The one that comes to mind for me was actually just a single execution on one billboard. It was for Yahoo Personals. We actually posted a live date with two physical people on a billboard having a date. And it was streamed live. And the entire team, I remember, was over the course of the day watching this date on the brand's website. And I think... The fact that you can do that, and I think that also, for me, made that digital connection. While it wasn't a digital board, it was a digital-first brand that recognized the power of physical location and what that experience could be, and making that go viral, as viral as things could go back then. But the fact that people could live watch this experience, and just also the logistics around it, the insurance and capabilities and all the things and how do we physically get people up there and do it safely and permits and all that fun stuff was, I think, part of also the out-of-home allure is if you didn't quite know how to do it, just talk to the out-of-home team. They've got a guy. They'll figure it out. I joke a lot like, oh, I got a guy. We just pick up the phone at the time. We pick up the phone now. whatever we're picking up and connecting, but it's solving problems. I think out of home, because it's not just the billboard, it's not just the bus shelter, it's an experience, it's everything in between. There's some way to do something that's going to have people stop and take notice and experience and engage. I think more so than maybe any other format that's out there today. So that one's the one that stands out. But then there's some of the ones, like we talked about Heineken, that we were able to wrap entire construction bridges and just the sheer scale of some of the things you can do and just taking over cities, also just awesome. And when you have competing brand managers seeing that and hearing through the grapevine how pissed they were that they didn't get that, you knew you did your job right. So I think those types of things, whether it's a single execution that got a top play to just saturating an important city and everywhere you turn. And actually, that was another... I'll name one other one back in the Continental Airlines days. We used to, like six months of the year, New York was just continental blue. And the creator was incredible on that because they literally had, I don't know, hundreds of taglines. So it didn't become blue wallpaper. Actually, people would sort of get conditioned to like, oh, there's another sort of fun, maybe playful New York-y thing or playing off the destinations that they would fly to. So things like that, especially when you're, again, close to the creative process, I think was really impactful.

SPEAKER_02: 30:08

Yeah. And that's the fun part, right? The simplicity behind it is, is it's a, it's a blank canvas that you could tell a story on visually. And I think that's the other cool thing that in my opinion is as social media has significantly become a part of our lives. I mean, there's a reason why, you know, psychologists tell you to turn your phone to gray scale. If you want to stop scrolling, doom scrolling, right. Is because we're visual humans and you love seeing things and you know, nothing's better than an out of home campaign, regardless of the media type. So in true norm fashion, not only are you evolving and better understanding the media and the out-of-home industry and kind of evolving it through your teams and through yourself specifically, you see the writing on the wall where the evolution is coming with programmatic. And you started last year, January of 2024, with a little company called Hivestack. Touch on that, like where the pivot came in.

SPEAKER_01: 31:03

Yeah, I mean, so my pivot away from just traditional agency side of the business into the dark side of sales, I wish I did it sooner because I love it. But it's been about five or six years now that I did that. When I went into a programmatic startup then, and I realized there was a short little window where I was doing some independent sales, you know, media owners were like, hey, I hear you are maybe selling now. I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of like building up a thing. And I realized it was fun being the guy bringing the cookies to the meetings. I was like, this is fun, right? And many of the people that I was calling on were people that I've worked with over the years. And so I kind of decided this is, I think, the path forward. And then, of course, you know, just before, I also realized like, hey, health insurance is kind of expensive. I probably need to, and like, so an opportunity came in to actually go to a formal company and build a practice is for out-of-home in the programmatic space. So I pivoted to that. Thankfully, because then COVID happened and the world went sideways, but I was at an established place in a track that was, I think, the future and has been the future for how we transact in the out-of-home marketplaces. on programmatically and using audiences and data and being able to measure outcomes. And so all of these things were boxes I was able to check that were exciting that I wish I had back in the day. So really enjoying the fact that we can go meet with our agency partners, talk to Blue Chip clients and all the way down to the mom and pop local store owners and say, you know, We know where your audiences are. We know how often they visit XYZ location. We actually know this screen is going to do better than that screen. So being able to be empowered using data and tools and technology that we just never had before was super exciting. So I think that's when I just doubled down on it. And I said, this is definitely where we're going. To be able to be on the forefront of how we transact and still work with all the same cartoon characters and people that I've come to know and love all the years just seem like a no-brainer. And so, you know, about a year and four or five months ago, I joined HiveStack, which was at the time just acquired by Pariano, a technology company that sort of focuses on, you know, really unique solutions for agencies, brands, retailers as well. There was also over the last however many years, retail media is starting to become a big thing and understanding shopping behaviors. And again, data-driven, whether it's first party data to all the different audiences that you can tap into from a variety of different places and being able to tie that back to physical locations. You can tell a story around it. That was just like, oh my God, this is amazing. Especially with COVID, it was an interesting period of time because consumer behavior shifted. How people shop, where they went suddenly was a complete change. sort of pivot away from anything that we knew. So being able to actually show a client, well, you know that they maybe aren't going to certain venue types anymore, but they're going to a grocery store, a C-store, stocking up for their families and having, showing that movement in real time was just like, all right, this is the way we need to power our decision. So yeah, that's what we've been doing at HiveSac now for the time that I've been here is the visualizations of how how people move in relation to physical inventory and building plans that are based on what's observed behavior and the measuring. It's an end-to-end perfect story from my perspective.

SPEAKER_02: 34:32

Yeah, and it's what the three powerful pillars of out-of-home. It's location, it's audience, and it's creative. And the ability to utilize technology to have all three of those work simultaneously in real time. Again, creative triggering based off of whatever the KPIs, whether it's weather, whether it's moments in time, and then that first or third party data to better understand. I'm with you. I think out of home is finally starting to get the recognition and it had to have taken technology to evolve to open it up. And now, and we'll go into this a little bit in more depth, but now it's like, okay, so how do we do the same thing for static? And I think that's where the Pandora's box just becomes... open for the Atom Home Space to where you see a lot of these digital shops. But before we get, we dive deep into that, give our listeners just a very high level, you know, everyone loves high stack. They love the beautiful pink, Andres Suplianis, who's a dear friend of mine. Thank God, I'm so happy for him. If he's listening, I hope he is, that he finally retired and gets to take a moment. But we both know Andres and he's probably not, he's probably coming up with something else bizarre today. in another industry. But give our listeners a little bit more about Perion and why it's so important. I'm excited about it because I know what they bring to the table. But give our listeners just a very high level why that's so important and why that acquisition meant so much more to your point, the retail media side.

SPEAKER_01: 36:02

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Maybe a little over a year ago. I don't know how familiar at least the US marketplace was with Perion, but they've been out there for years as a technology company, but the focus was more on the sub-brand. So they acquired HiveStack, which they recognized from a platform perspective and from what we were doing from a leading industry and programmatic digital at home, and not just in the US, 39 markets now. So that part is huge, probably the largest, I believe, in the space. So with physical people and intelligence in all those local markets. So that part was a big sort of attractive capability from a broader paradigm perspective, but then undertone who's been around for many, many years and creating high-impact creative, strong in the CTV space, and then other brands like Codefuel and Betazilic, they recognized that we were operating sort of separately from we were starting to tap into each other and pulling in different solutions as we needed. But, you know, the power of having one brand, one entity, with all those capabilities rolled up into, you know, one single source solution, I think is where we're heading as an organization. So it was formalized as, you know, where the individual brands were no longer technically in existence. We get to keep some of the pink, the subtle pink, which is nice. But, you know, we are one organization focused on, you know, tech-forward, insights-driven. AI, of course, can be a part of it. So being able to leverage unique insights, creative tools. I mean, Undertone Forever is known for its creative strength and capability, not only in the CTV space, but broadly speaking. So being able to have that and now apply that to out of home. So whether it's DCO, which is a huge area for us, being able to, whether it's weather triggers and pollen count things to live sports scores and all the versioning that a brand has to do. Sometimes it's, it's physically, um, Just resource-wise, challenging for them to execute those types of things. So being able to have that resource readily available, solve those problems, be the easy button for brands, agencies, and retailers alike to take a more sophisticated approach to connecting with consumers, I think is what you're going to see really shine from Parian in the coming months and years ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 38:18

Yeah. How about the irony that you started your career across multiple media outlets? And then here you are today, back into the multimedia facet. I love it.

SPEAKER_01: 38:28

Yeah, I mean, it's, I think, inevitable. I think I love the fact that even... you know, having closer connections to the creative side of things is also kind of coming full circle because media and creative sort of split apart and now we're finding a much more success with things coming maybe back together and we're being closer to that process to tell a stronger story. But, you know, we are still first and foremost, Point Solution, Digital Home, that's the platform. But I think because of the fact that our former sister company, now part of the VSA Marbella, has such a strong hold on the CTV marketplace and that's definitely a high-profile area for brands now. I can have a broader conversation with the folks who are activating digital at home, and if they're now able to tap into CTV dollars that maybe want to have additional scale on the digital at home side, because there are networks now that maybe work with some of the requirements and vast tags and different things that the CTV space uses. I can bring in my partner from that side of the house and maybe have a more rich conversation versus just that one solution. So it's exciting to be able to offer up other things as we understand what marketers are looking for. But at the end of the day, it's an at-home solution, at least at this point. I don't know that we're going omni-channel anytime soon. But the technology is there, and I think clients are reacting to the fact that we can simplify... that whole conversation more so than we ever could before.

SPEAKER_02: 39:59

Yeah. And you and I've discussed this, but it's interesting that again, out of home being that darling, you know, some, some of your counterparts within, within the broader company have started to become very interested. Like, and I think that's, that's where, in my opinion, where Norm's seen such success is you've always looked at this as a larger, a larger picture. You know, if we take our out of home hats off, if we take our digital marketing advertisers hats, like, we as consumers, we really don't care where that ad served or where it came from. It's like, talk to me at the right point in my day and my journey. And it may be CTV ad on my phone. It may be an out of home screen. It may be the back of a, of a Uber, whatever it may be. It's like, talk to me to that moment. So the, The last half here, what I really want to dive deep into is, you know, again, you and I have lived through this, both on the agency side and the publisher side. But the evolution of the advertising agency, specifically out of home, I mean, you've managed a team for 14 plus years. How has technology evolving helped you? And where do you see the specialist playing a role in this space? And then also, how are we capturing new digital brands, new digital agencies into the space? Because it's this like delicate balance. It's almost like when you invite your friends over and then you invite like your baseball friends over and you're like, I hope you guys all get along.

SPEAKER_01: 41:23

Yeah, there's definitely sometimes can be this little awkward thing. But at the end of the day, everyone's excited to make these new connections, right? And, you know, coming from a specialist role, and we are still very much in a specialist area. And I used to cringe when they said, well, you know, three years specialist are going to be gone. And like, this is I've heard this like nine years ago, I feel like so. the specialist brings immense value because this is still an incredibly complex space, right? So being able to understand, you know, in this market, I need this media owner and that screen, and I'm going to pepper in these, like, there's nothing like it. So you have to have experts in the space. But how are you going to deploy those experts? What are you going to arm them with is, I think, Maybe what's keeping them so valued is the fact that we are now empowering them with audiences, an audience-based conversation versus strictly a real estate conversation. I think we've always historically been a real estate-driven solution. I want to be across the street from XYZ headquarters. I want to be in a hip and trendy neighborhood. And we can do that all day long. It's still a strength of our industry. But to be able to say, I want to reach... Haircare purchasers, where is that person and how do we find them? And that comes back to an incredibly fast-growing space for our industry is CPG and retail. They are not historically activating out of home. But if you can go to a specialist agency and give them tools and purchase behaviors and all sorts of audience data to say, we've seen these people purchase XYZ haircare products. product and we know that not only are they physically in the store or in the in the parking lot but there's a billboard 10 miles away that we know is going to reach a hair care purchaser because we've seen that behavior we've seen using mobile device data using you know understanding traffic patterns and movement and visitation you start to connect all those pieces and you empower your specialist agency to go into a dashboard or to a platform you know like formerly known as HiveStack, now Perion, and actually put in their audiences, see heat maps, deliver impressions based on when we see those impressions at the best points in time throughout those days, and then understand what are they doing after being exposed. And then also... Extending that to not just an out-of-home-only conversation, but if their brands are working with omni-channel platforms like the Trade Desk or DB360, well, we can connect to those. And we aren't in the silo. We can push that super-rich, sophisticated, precision-based targeting, but at scale. into those omni-channel solutions and measure all the other things that you're doing and how that will be part of that conversation. I think that's why we're still in the game. That's why we're still loving what we do because we're giving them these tools to have a more informed conversation versus that little silo, like, here's your 100K. As great as it is, we have some money left over. Now we're actually part of the brief, part of the, here's your audience, find those people for us.

SPEAKER_02: 44:31

Yeah. And it's, you know, obviously creating those efficiencies are massive and one thing for the buying tools, but the ability to overlay to your point, the, the audience data is everything that we've been saying, you know, cause remember back in the day it was like, Hey, three to five miles from big box retailer X and you and I both know, uh, We all travel significantly different. And you were always saying like, yeah, but this board over here. And it's like, well, there's no data back then. There's no data to prove that out. So I just can't be a part of the buy. But I also think there's a lot of fun to your point where if you think a lot of these brands, it goes much further. The big buzzword right now is culturally relevant moments or conditional moments where... hey, let's light up a whole market because outcome X have happened. And now you're starting to not only talk about the platforms, the data, but again, that creative ability to trigger and have buys turn off and on in a much larger scale becomes significantly more important that our brands are starting to recognize and digital agencies are saying like, okay, we need to take this medium even more serious than ever because not only do they play in our space and we're connected, but but also it can do some really cool shit that we can't do in any other media at that speed and pace.

SPEAKER_01: 45:50

Yeah. And the fact that we're having an audience first conversation allows us to, obviously like our bread and butter is our specialist agency. So we know the value of each individual placement, but then we can have a similar conversation with a digital team who maybe doesn't know the difference between Lamar, Deco, Clear, or whoever, Mama Pop Outdoor. They just know I'm trying to reach somebody who, exhibits a certain behavior and does a certain purchase pattern. So the fact that we can now have that discussion with them and be in their platform and build a pool of inventory that accomplishes a specific objective, depending on what their KPIs are, that's also a conversation that I'm super excited about. How do we, one, empower our specialists, but then also just talk to other teams who maybe wouldn't have thought about a home as a solution? but yeah, all our inventories there. You want to see movement data here. Here it is. It's a very different conversation. It's very different pitch. Like they're, they're not, it's less about publisher specific or specific media types. It's just audiences versus specialists. So like, all right, who are we buying from and where is the screen and show me like, so we're, we're set up for any one of those conversations and are successful in any one of those conversations.

SPEAKER_02: 47:06

Yeah. And I, I think as we, continue to evolve and we continue to recognize the importance of platforms, the importance of data. I've always said this to one of your other partners. It's like, there's a significant amount of world beyond just digital that exists in the out-of-home space that if we can automate this side of the house and introduce digital agencies, create more efficient for these specialists, then now we start to truly emerge as a powerful medium and looked upon as as one one medium not individual you know partners or publishers or screen types and then obviously there's the importance of the specialists is also to scrub a lot of these screens and it's like yeah no way would that ever end up on my brief like yes the data may show it but like let's look at quality of screens and you know that's a whole another hour and a half long conversation with you for sure

SPEAKER_01: 47:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're also seeing the same thing on the retail media side too. Being able to show that it's not just about the screens in their stores. Effectively, you can light up any screen, however, 500,000, 600,000 screens nationwide, however close they are to their stores or not, but using their first party data to actually find their consumers. And it's not just the screen in the aisle. You can have a much bigger story miles away and have it all their fingertips like that part's really interesting um for us to be empowering that side of our industry too so yeah

SPEAKER_02: 48:33

look i'm i'm beyond excited you and i can talk for hours i i know that whenever if you recall the conversation you and i had probably about three or four years ago when you started poking around in the programmatic space and i i remember shooting you a text or calling you and saying like norm i am so excited that you're here Because the breadth of knowledge that you bring, the experience that you bring, but also more importantly, your mind and the way that you think, it's almost like you're never comfortable. And I think that's the best type of people that you want in the out-of-home space and more importantly, on the technology side.

SPEAKER_01: 49:05

No, I appreciate that. I do say you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable because as a legacy out-of-home guy, I'm in a space sometimes that the conversations are... have nothing to do with the billboard. It's about pushing an audience segment into an S3 bucket. At first, I'm like, where's this bucket that everybody keeps talking about? You realize, all right, that's this. You start to make these connections, but you realize it's bigger than just out of home. It's using technology in a way to solve a problem we never had access to, being more sophisticated about it, being accountable. I think that's one thing, too, is how do we prove to a client that, all right, leveraging this group of assets in this way, allows you to have XYZ outcome and being able to be transparent about it. Really send them a list with every little line item detail that they would want so that they know that we're accountable for everything on this list and we're going to deliver against this exact list and it's approved and you're going to see it ahead of time. Like all these things, there's no black box with us. I think that's important. We want to make sure that, you know, clients feel comfortable about the investments that they're making and then being able to prove that out for them is critical.

SPEAKER_02: 50:13

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and no chance was I not going to let you get off this podcast about talking about being a professional mime as a kid.

SPEAKER_01: 50:21

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 50:21

I figured

SPEAKER_01: 50:22

maybe the time would run out, but to your credit, you built in a little cushion. So yeah, I mean, literally, it was a period of time where I was the only... kid. I was like nine years old, I think. I did it for two or three years in an adult pantomime troupe that performed all over the tri-state area in schools and churches and theaters. I actually got paid for it. I actually asked my mother where that money went. But it was an interesting experience just from a confidence perspective. At least not many lines because obviously it's being a mime. But to be able to tell a story through just and be part of, you know, like some artistic movement form to it, it was great. And obviously not your typical activity for a kid. I mean, I did all the usual stuff and swim teams and Little League and all the different things. But I think it did shape me in some ways to, one, maybe be comfortable in an uncomfortable situation because, one, I was also the only kid and surrounded by adults performing all over the city. And that probably, looking back on it, probably did help to some degree with pushing myself into spaces that maybe... You know, you have to go to, but sometimes you're hesitant to do. And so, yeah, that was a little fun. There's some pictures floating around, which maybe, you know, over a Heineken one day. But it was definitely a fun little childhood memory. And one that, you know, when everyone's like, tell us a couple of unknown things about yourself. Usually that's where I go because, you know, how many other minds have you run into in your life? Yeah, zero. This is the first. I've known you for almost 18 years and I never knew you. Great party trick too, so... It's true. Every now and then there's a little something I'll put out there and get a chuckle. So yeah, it's fun.

SPEAKER_02: 52:13

I love it. Well, listen, my friend, it's always a pleasure. Like I'd mentioned, it's fun to be in this space with you and I'm glad you're here and enjoy our friendship. And I know our listeners, a lot of which know you and a lot of which don't. So again, let's continue to be uncomfortable together.

SPEAKER_01: 52:28

I like it. I appreciate the opportunity to have the conversation today. I cherish our friendship and looking forward to the years ahead I think there's so much more we can do industry-wide and as partners. So we'd love to continue to be uncomfortable, but in a good way, knowing that we're trying to do the right thing for our partners and our agencies and our brands. I think that's what they lean on us for. So excited to do that together with

SPEAKER_02: 52:51

you. That's

SPEAKER_01: 52:51

key. All right. Thanks, my friend. All the best.

SPEAKER_02: 52:57

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