CPTSD & Internal Family Systems

Welcome back to the podcast. Today, we are diving into a topic that affects millions of people yet is often misunderstood: Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, or CPTSD.

Joining me is Jay Saxe, also known as The Trauma Coach, an IFS-informed healing practitioner helping high-functioning trauma survivors who look fine on the outside but don't feel fine on the inside.

In this conversation, Jay breaks down what CPTSD really is and why so many people struggle with patterns of shame, self-criticism, emotional dysregulation, and relationship challenges without realizing that trauma may be at the root.

We'll also explore Internal Family Systems, or IFS, a powerful therapeutic approach that helps people connect with and heal the different parts of themselves that developed in response to difficult life experiences. Jay explains how IFS can support recovery from trauma, repair attachment wounds, and help people move toward greater self-compassion, resilience, and inner peace.

Whether you're on your own healing journey, supporting someone you care about, or simply curious about how trauma impacts the mind and body, this episode is packed with valuable insights and practical wisdom.

Please join me in welcoming Jay Saxe to the podcast.

Connect with Jay Saxe - The Trauma Coach

Instagram: @iamjaysaxe

Tik Tok: @iamjaysaxe

Grab his free abandonment audio

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Website: www.pamrocca.com

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Transcript

0:18

​Hello, beautiful souls. Welcome to the Divine Health podcast. I'm your host, Pam Rocca. I'm an intuitive healer, an energy worker, and clairvoyant. My passion and purpose is to guide you back home to your healed, happiest, and healthiest highest self. Think of this podcast as your weekly dose of inspiration and education on all things related to health and spirituality. We're going to dive deep into topics on emotional and mental health, relationships, spirituality, healing, personal growth and development, finance, and all things manifestation, and so much more. I'm excited each week to share tools, resources, and other amazing guests to help you see the infinite ways that you can create, manifest, and embody a divine, intentional lifestyle that nourishes your soul. Thank you so much for being here today. Today, we have a very exciting guest expert. We have Jay Sachs. He is the trauma coach. I found him over on social media, and I loved his approach on how he talks to his community and shares so much information and wisdom using internal family systems. So I had him come on, and we were talking about complex post-traumatic stress disorder, or CPTSD. I know that is a mouthful. We were also talking about how he uses internal family systems to support people as the trauma coach, and this was a beautiful conversation. I wish that we had more time, because there... I feel like we just scratched the surface. There's so many things that I wanted to talk about, about codependency and mother wounds and father wounds and all of that good information. But we really d- dove deep into parts work and how people can lean in and get curious about their own healing journey. So you're definitely wanna, you're gonna wanna give Jay a follow and go check out his content if you've been working through stuff or, or healing. I just love his approach on how he simplifies it, and he makes healing and working with your own inner traumas very approachable, safe, sooth- almost soothing. Like, his voice is very soothing. So without any more delay, let's welcome Jay to the podcast Welcome, Jay. Thank you so much for being on Divine Health Podcast today. I'm so excited for this conversation. But before we jump in- Yeah do you mind sharing how did you become the trauma coach, and how did you get into internal family system? What's your background and your story? How'd you get here? Yeah. Cool. First off, again, Pam, thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure, sincerely. So for me, I, got fired from my job actually as a financial advisor in 2020, right at the height of the... well, at the beginning of the pandemic here in Canada, and it was fortuitous 'cause I wanted to try something else. I was in banking for 14 years, and why I was in banking is 'cause I loved helping people. That was always my kind of why and what kept me there, and I loved connecting with people, and I was always the advisor where meetings went longer than they should have, and- I got to know them at such deeper, profound levels, and that was always innately in me, was to just be there with people and hear them and listen and, and, yes, want to advise and support. So and then my wife was like, "You know, you should be like a mindset coach or like a..." 'Cause we were doing a lot of inner work at that time. Pretty soft compared to what we're doing now and what I'm doing now. But it was like, "I've never been an entrepreneur. What do you mean? I've never, like, gone out on my own." And right away I could hear all of the inner voices that were just like, "You can't do this. So I started as, a mindful business co- or mindful, like, money coach. went nowhere. It wasn't what I was supposed to be doing. The few clients I got was always going back to their childhood and trauma and all these things. And I was still not so close yet to my own healing and, like, seeing where my own trauma and my own childhood affected me. I kind of wanted to, like a lot of people want, to just pretend it didn't exist and that my issues are just adult issues and I need to figure it out, and it's a mindset issue. I'm thinking about things wrong and all this stuff, so... or I need to be more mindful. I need to meditate more. So I tried everything. And then every single client that I started to get, it always was leaning towards, like, inner child and the deeper stuff. It was far past mindset and motivation and all that. And then I was... You know, some stuff happened with, like, my parents. Like, both my parents are passed away now. As most of us, they're the cause of so much of the pain and suffering that I've had to go through as a kid. And they passed away and I was dealing with it, pretty, like, rough. And I went to counseling and I started going to counseling therapy and, and I recognized that After doing some inner work, I was I was aware of my childhood and how messed up it was, but none of the counselors or therapists ever like really talked about it. It was always like kind of glossing over, or they would let me just talk, talk, talk for the hour, and then nothing would happen from it. And then one day my wife actually introduced me to a podcast, and it was Gabby Bernstein. Yeah. So she is a huge component of IFS's, I think, popularity because she's a practitioner. she knows the founder of it quite well, Richard Schwartz. And anyway, so in her podcast, she started diving into parts work and talking all about it, and it just, it blew my mind, and I was like, "This is it. What is this?" And so went and got everything I could on it, all the courses and education and books and then took the training and, and it just opened my world up like nothing else ever. being able to actually connect with the parts of me in all ways, shapes, and form, it allowed me to understand myself at such a deep level, and then I got to actually unburden the real deep childhood wounds that were creating such a protective system inside of me. And so basically it was all by chance, whether you believe in chance or not, I suppose, right? It's like- It sounds pretty divinely designed Yeah, you know, kind of designed to be like, "You need to help people." And the whole time while I was still searching, I was like, "I wanna help people. I wanna support. I wanna change my own life, and I wanna change people's lives, and and lean into, like, my dharma." And, then this kind of landed in my lap 'cause I was, like a lot of business owners, I was struggling with "What's the one thing that's gonna make me stand out?" Or, "What's the one thing that's gonna really do this for me?" And thankfully I found the one thing that just really helped cement my ability to help people in a deeply profound way, 'cause I was helping them before, but now I actually have a blueprint and a language that can really help people connect to themselves in a profoundly deep way. and I could only do it 'cause I did it all myself and saw the major impactful results. And then when I started introducing it to my existing clients, it just... it was really cool. It just like, you could see every, the light bulbs going off and the shifts that were finally happening and where we might've been stuck after a few sessions is cleared up in one session and- just by being able to connect with a part of them and, and all that. So yeah, so then essentially that's it, is, is waking up to all my own childhood trauma, seeing how devastating it all was, learning the nuances of my own trauma, and then learning about trauma and all the reading and education, tying it back to just, again, my own personal life. And then also making the decision, 'cause I was like, "I could go back to school. I I should be a therapist or something," sitting with two things. A bit of a pragmatic part of like, "Let's just do this now." Like, "Let's help people now. We got the training. we're good to go, like rock and roll." and another part was actually this part of me that was really insecure about education and schooling. I was a C-minus student all my life. There was a... still this part of me, and every day I discover a new part of me that was really insecure around education. So actually I stopped myself until it became then far enough along that it's like, we're good. because then it's like I wanna help people in a deep way that in some ways, shapes, or form therapists maybe don't or can't. Yeah, it's a really special thing that I've stumbled onto. I think it's- And that I'm grateful for. Yeah. I think it's fascinating when... Because when you do the inner work and you see how it impacts your life, your relationship, how you show up at work, it affects all areas because you're getting to the root. And when you can see that impact, of course, I'm the kind of person that I'm like, "I wanna share it from the rooftop," 'cause I know that it works. And I think it's really cool that you, you found that thing for you, and that you were... now you're able to help so many clients. I know I lo- that's how I found you, on social media. You speak to people's pain. And I think that that's really beautiful because then they don't feel so alone, and I really love your tagline, "Informed healing for high-functioning trauma survivors who look fine on the outside but don't feel fine on the inside." 'Cause I think so many people, it looks like we have it all together, but there's these deep-seated wounds within, and oftentimes people try and fix it with a Band-Aid, but it's like you have to go to the root, right? And it sounds like that's exactly what you're doing. Yeah, 100%. And it's a gift, and one thing I've, like, l- shied away from with a lot of my insecurities is never wanting to come across as cocky or as too much. And like a lot of us, of course, stifle ourselves or keep us small and and it comes from my childhood. I can hear my mom's voice, you know, like, "Don't be too big for your britches," or- Yeah oh, my dad, "Oh, you got a big ego on you." Yeah, so I would kind of stifle myself, but the reality is, is, I've helped so many people now, where it's like you're actually really kind of... And then like you, you lean into be like, "I do have a gift." It's here for a reason, and I need to share it, and I need to help people heal. And but for me, it, for a long time was really uncomfortable to admit. Mm-hmm. Like, I have a gift, and this is my calling, and I'm very good at it. I don't know if you can relate to that, but I know a lot of people can, is just admitting when they're, like, really good at something 'cause they're afraid they're gonna come across as- Yes. I can totally- arrogant or cynical, you know? And- and yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm just so glad that this work helped me in this way. and I know a lot of the talk we had was about avoidant behavior and, attachment and, and that's where this work is so profound 'cause- One thing that a lot of the, the mentors that I've had, they remind me of like all of us have attachment issues, and we're all looking for external attachment, right? Like through our spouses, right? Through our kids, through our achievements, through our work, whatever it might be, even through therapists and coaches and mentors. We're always looking for external attachments, 'cause it makes sense. There's a little kid in us that is still seeking an external attachment from mom and dad. but this is the, the one work that really does allow you to have a secure attachment with yourself. And if people like attachment language, then that kind of starts to feel pretty like warm and cozy. 'Cause, you know? Yeah, well, it's like you have the language that people are needing to hear. I think that's what's really helpful, because a lot of us don't even know that we do that, right? When I learned about attachment styles, my... I was totally blown away, 'cause I was like, "So that's why I do that, and that's why he does that, and that's why the..." You know? It's just so interesting. Yeah. I know we're totally gonna dive into that. But before we do, I would love to talk about what is internal family systems? If someone's coming to the podcast for the first time and they've never heard of IFS, what is it and how do you use it to help clients heal, trauma or whatever they come to you for? Yeah. so IFS stands for internal family systems therapy. It's been around for 30-plus years. Widely regarded as really one of the most effective trauma healing models. they even have a clinical study that's available publicly from 2022 that shows a 92% effectiveness ratio for reducing complex PTSD symptoms. And so Richard Schwartz is a gentleman that began it. He was a family therapist, and, and yeah, he was just hearing from his clients talk about their parts, and he was really concerned for a minute. It was, you know, early '80s. He's like, "Are you, like, multiple personality? What are you talking about here?" Because they were saying that, "Well, my part makes me cut," or, "My part won't let me eat," or, "This part of me is so mad at my dad, and this part of me, this part of me, this part of me." And so he got quiet and he's like, "Wow, I got the same parts. Interesting." And so then he started hearing from his clients about their parts. And so it's not a clinical word by any means, but he all of a sudden found a language that becomes extremely relatable because we just speak in that language. Like, "Oh, when my mom calls me, a part of me freezes." Right? Or like, "Ugh, like, when my husband asks me to... like, a part of me just wants to tear his head off." Or, "A part of me loves him and a part of me can't stand him." And we start hearing this word, this word part, it just makes it make so much sense, but never before did anyone slow down and say, "Hey, have you ever thought to get to know that part of you?" And 'cause then it's like, "Well, what do you mean?" Right? And I know probably everybody's like, "Yeah, I guess so." Like, you can be at coffee with your friend and, "Oh my gosh, yeah, well, this happened and a part of me went ballistic," or, "Oh, a part of me just judged me so hard for how I showed up at that party." Yeah. And so yeah, this finally gives a language and a blueprint of how to actually get to know that part of you. Now why does this even matter? It's because then you learn how these parts of you have formed and shaped over your lifetime to protect you. And so this model builds self-compassion like nothing else, and in my opinion, that's what's needed to deal trauma is self-compassion. As simplistic but as also vague as that sounds, and I hope I'll get the ball across the plate in this conversation is- When you can look at a behavior you have or a trigger you have or a reaction you have, oftentimes we just go to generic, "I don't like that about me," or, "I hate that I do this," or, you know, "I love that about me," or, "I love that I do this." But of course, most often we're pulled towards healing 'cause we hate something about ourselves or we don't like something about ourselves, or we don't get why we are a certain way. So when we can actually communicate with this part of your psyche, 'cause that's what we're doing, it's a guided meditative conversation with yourself. Anytime you work with a IFS practitioner or when I'm coaching you, is you get to go inward and have a conversation with this part of you that is protecting you. Or then it gets down to not protecting you, but its actual wounded part, and now you're spending time with the wounded part. But you can only do that after being with the protective part. So it gives you a whole framework of being able to meet your protective system. Some places will just call it a defense strategy or a coping mechanism. I like to look at it as a protection mechanism. And even right there, it shifts. Protection. Like, and the word itself is kind of more noble. It's like, "Oh, I'm protecting myself." Much to maybe others' chagrin, right? But I'm protecting myself. I'm not just coping. I'm not just defensive, right? I'm not just surviving. I'm protecting. And protection, in my opinion, is love, is care. So when we can start to see how behavior we have is actually protecting us, it usually right away starts to bring down our own defenses against this part that's within us. And so the war within us starts to get quieter. that kind of internal battle all the time of hating a part of us, it starts to slow down because we can actually see how it's protecting us. Now technically speaking, in this guided conversation we can actually be with a part and hear all about its history. We can hear the age of that part of you. Because how the brain works under extreme stress and trauma is it gets frozen in time, in a sense. And so a lot of our parts are young. I work with people in their 70s and they're like, "This part says that it's 10 years old." It's like, yeah, and it's still there, right? And so from childhood, we learned how to protect ourselves in different ways. Maybe it is to shape-shift. Maybe it is to be a good little girl or a high achiever or a perfectionist or the most beautiful or the most athletic or whatever it might be, right? Daddy's little helper, mama's little boy. Like, all these different like roles and stuff that we can have as kids we actually realize that these were adaptations to how we were being treated, and we can see that this protection system came online at that time and began helping us in that way at that time. But now as adults, we might realize it's not as effective anymore. It's not as effective of a protective strategy anymore. And so the whole point there is when we can really be with that protective part of ourselves- See that as protective. Thank it for its duty to us. And I've had to have really hard conversations with myself. Like, I think I mentioned in our last conversation, I'm nine and nine years sober. I had to meet the part of me that drank, right? And then I had to meet the parts of me that hated that I drank. And then I got to meet the parts of me that guilted me and then shamed me, and then loved it. I got to meet all those parts of me and befriend all of them. And now there is no ill will to this part of me that was very addicted. It's all honestly just love and understanding and compassion and almost like a reverence. Whereas before I was just lost in shame and trying to overachieve my way out of it. And, and so when you can actually befriend this protective part of you, getting to the trauma healing part, is you then learn why are you protecting me even? What's going on here? And usually there's an indication that sometimes there's a word that'll be like a give. It's like, "Oh, well, she can't handle it." "Oh, what do you mean she can't handle it?" "Well, I mean, when Dad's so angry all the time, she just, she can't handle it." 'Cause this part of you is, again, kind of lost in time. It's almost talking as if it's happening in the moment. And so that starts to help me be like, "Okay, so you're protecting a vulnerable part of her?" And, "Well, yeah, I have to. I had to. Nobody else was. I have no choice." There's all these words you can kind of hear from a part of you. And then me and the client, we build trust with that protective part to say, "Hey, would you mind then backing up and let me be with that vulnerable part of you?" And one thing that's really unique is it's not me doing it. I'm guiding the client to be able to do this for themselves, and that's why it then becomes so empowering, is it's not me being with the protective part or me being with the wounded part of my client. It's me just helping the client forge that relationship and have that conversation, Because earlier I said this is like, you know, attachment gone inward and you create secure attachment to yourself is you do become your own healer. Because now all of a sudden the guard is dropped. And some listeners might be like, "Oh my God, that's i'd be so full of anxiety, like trying to go to my wound or like my, quote-unquote, inner child. I shut down. I dissociate." And they're like, "Nah, that's a protective part of you." Yeah. And so admittedly, in a session, I might have to help the client have a conversation with a few different parts that show up at any given time, the closer we get to a wounding. But it's done with, again, courtesy and cooperation, is like, "Look, can you give us a minute and see that the wounded one won't overwhelm me? And can you back up a little and just see how it goes? And if you need to step in, you can. You're the boss here." So it's like, it's also the only type of healing model that I know of that is extremely cooperative and permission-driven if that makes sense. So healing becomes quick actually, and effective because there's no resistance. We're not fighting a part. We're asking permission to let us go and help this wounded, vulnerable aspect of the person. And so then, yeah, you get access to the wounded part of you. In practice we call it the exile, so the exiled wound, the one that's been exiled, shoved in the basement of your system, so to speak out of protection. And so now that's where the trauma healing happens, is because now this little one that was hurt or didn't have her needs met or was abused I've worked with people from all levels and variations of abuse and neglect and abandonment, is now for the first time usually ever, this little girl or this little boy inside of the client finally has a compassionate witness to their suffering, and that's the client themselves. It's not me. I'm there kind of in the background, but it's the client who... And I, and as I'm guiding them through, like they're sharing with me so that I can feed off it. So maybe it's like, "Yeah, no, no, I'm sitting down next to her." And then I ask like, "Is she okay with that?" "Yeah, she seems okay with it." "Okay, cool." And so then the self of the client just takes over, and it becomes this nurturing companion, nonjudgmental, patient entity within yourself that is now with your own deep woundedness. And it's also very just, it's very practical 'cause you see this little kid version of you who just wanted someone to listen. And so I always like to say that this work really helps you listen to yourself when no one else would. Because now from deep within your implicit memory and your subconscious, you know how so many of us are like, "I barely remember my childhood." It's like, no, your protective system just won't let you remember parts of your childhood. And also some parts of your childhood there's no need to remember. Like, obviously our brain filters out some of that information. But when it comes down to hurt and wounding, yeah, we don't remember much of it. But so we've not actually forgotten, though. That exile's been holding onto it this whole time. So any time a client feels unlovable or feels unworthy or feels unsafe or lonely or isolated, or they hear themselves saying, "They constantly leave," or, "I'm constantly alone," or, "No one will ever love me," that's the language of this little exile that's still coming through. So finally you get to actually listen to it and be like, "Tell me more. I'm listening." And it's beautiful. I mean, it's... I always get goosebumps because you can see the client that when I'm watching the client, their eyes are usually closed, but like there's just a softening of their body language. And- There might be silence for a long time, and then I'll check in like, "What's happening?" "Oh," like, "I asked permission to give her a hug, and now I'm holding her. But now she's walking me through, like, her old family home, and she's showing me where X happened or this thing happened." And there's a whole other, like, technical aspect where I do help somebody, of course, then what we call unburden an exile. And so the healing trauma equivalent in IFS language is unburdening. And I also kind of love that. It just kind of feels more real, tangible. Your system's burdened with beliefs that you're unlovable or that people hate you or that you're not worthy. Those are burdens, and so this work allows you to unburden that, and there's a really cool spiritual almost way of doing that. and then that little energy within you finally finds joy again, finds childlike wonder again, and isn't burdened with all these heavy toxic beliefs. But then where behavioral change actually happens, so it's two steps. There's the healing the trauma piece. Cool. I guess it's three steps. And I know this is long-winded, and I hope it's okay. It's great. Keep going. okay. So three steps really to all this whole process is you get to know a protective part of your system, befriend it, and you can Google it. I mean, there's the six Fs of IFS and, and that's a bit of a process that any practitioner would follow. But at the end of the day, you get to know the protective part of your system. It trusts you, it softens. Then you get to go meet the exiled, wounded part of the system. It trusts you, it softens, and you connect with it, and then you give it the opportunity to unburden itself. And now it unburdens. Now it doesn't need the same kind of protection that that protection mechanism you had before does. And that's a literal thing that happens, is I invite that protective part to be like, "Hey," like, "what do you think of all that?" Like, "Look how she feels now. She's just a kid dancing and playing and twirling in the field." "Look at that. That's beautiful, isn't it?" And the protective part that might've been like a harsh inner critic or a, a people pleaser or the part of you that flies off the handle so easily, all of a sudden it's like, "Wow." Like, I guess my work here is done. Or like, well now what do I Literally hear it, the client will say these words constantly is, "Well now," it says, "Now what do I do?" And it's kind of weird, 'cause it's like we're talking to ourselves, it's kind of coming through us, but it doesn't really feel like it's us talking, which is I, I won't lie, it's a little trippy when you're in it. But also just I think speaks to the wonder of the human system, is, then it becomes this, well, how about we find a new way for you to help me? And a really neat thing that happens is the inner critic turns into the inner cheerleader, or the people pleaser turns into the boundary setter, or the person that repeats toxic relationship patterns becomes the red flag finder. Like, it, it's a really neat, like, role reversal that can happen. But then what literally happens outside is people act different. They literally, their behavior shifts, 'cause now they're not protecting themselves the same way. If that, any of that makes sense. So yeah, it's a three-part process that is very cooperative, very permission driven, and extremely effective because it helps you communicate with your whole system that was impacted by trauma. It's not just dealing with the symptoms, it's not just dealing with triggers, it's not just trying to find, a somatic coping mechanism or a nervous system regulation tool, or anything like that. It really just helps you get to the absolute core of it, but from a whole system, like the protective system and then the wounded system. it's, it's, it's amazing. It's pretty fascinating, and I love the languaging too, because there's a softness to it- that it I definitely felt that when you were, like, unburdening. And I'm like, how beautiful is that? Because you're, you're releasing something that was never fully you, so you're coming home to more of you. And so I think it's just such a, a really beautiful process. I wanna talk about complex post-traumatic stress disorder, C- Yeah PTSD. Yeah. It's so helpful. So I know that you're very passionate about helping people with this, with IFS. Mm-hmm. So what is it, and how would people even I, it's something I've never even heard of, if I'm being honest. Yeah. and that's where It's funny, 'cause I'm so entrenched in it, but I guess I, to be honest myself, I guess I didn't hear about it either. I didn't think about it either. Complex PTSD, what do you mean? So complex PTSD is tricky because- It can be so many things all at once over time, and it can be easily looked at as, "Well, that's not a big deal, that's just a part of life," to, "Oh, yeah, no, it makes sense that you feel this way, act this way, behave this way." Meaning, I have people-- And you don't have to be-- It is a clinical diagnosis. You can be diagnosed with CPTSD. I don't think there's any need for that. It doesn't change anything one way or the other. It's all it means is you get to wake up to the fact that you've been hurt in a lot of complex, compounded ways, in little ways and in big ways. And so I work with people who think they had a good childhood and don't know why they have chronic anxiety and self-worth issues, and they push, push, and no matter how much they achieve, nothing's ever good enough. "But I had a really good childhood, so I don't know. Like, no, I never was abused or anything like that." That's fine. Could you go to somebody safely with your emotions? "Oh, no, no, that wasn't allowed. yeah, no." It's kind of suck it up buttercup kind of vibe. It's like, oh, okay, cool. So your very innately human system that is full of emotion got stifled. Mm. And that doesn't feel good, does it? Could you go to anybody? Could you ever release it? "No, no, no. I could never talk to anyone." Oh, okay, so it's just been trapped inside of you. "Yeah." It's like, okay, and that bad thing kind of happened. Oh, that really sad thing happened. Oh, okay. Could you talk to anyone about that? "No, no, no." Okay, so it's trapped inside of you. So my interpretation of it, and I love just keeping things honestly kind of non-clinical, non-pathological, is, is for years or in big moments of your life, you didn't have a compassionate witness to your suffering, even if that suffering was bullying in grade 11 and you couldn't tell your parents about it. Because then there's a deeper root. Why can't you tell your parents about it? "Oh, well, Dad would always dismiss me, and, Mom was just so busy with work I couldn't talk to her at all." That's where it's also not demonizing. It's like, okay, I'm not blaming your parents, but either way, you didn't get your needs met. Now, that's on the kind of abstract, almost trauma psych spectrum where a lot of people can relate to. Still I get it. People are like, "I don't get how that's like trauma to me, though." Mm-hmm. 'Cause again, nothing bad happened. So then I turn-- look at it a different way. Okay, maybe not too many bad things happened to you, but how many good things didn't happen to you? And then it's like, "Oh, what do you mean by that?" Again, how often could you be held emotionally? How much were your boundaries respected as a kid? how much agency did you have in your life, right? What kind of expectations were put on you? You know, all that kind of stuff. And it, it starts to realize, like yeah, I didn't actually get these nice experiences or that thing. I didn't get a nurturing mother, right? I had a, a boot camp father and a distant mom. Or you start to realize there's all these patterns where you can be like, "Wow, a lot of good things didn't happen to me, and that still hurt me just as much as if a lot of bad things happened to me." Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And I think it makes a lot of sense, 'cause the way that I understand things is when we're kids, we think in absolute, like always and never. Mm-hmm. And we're always looking for love. Yeah. So we internalize. I feel like that's when, I call it our computer system. That's when we lock things in of when I do this, mom and dad like me- Yeah so I'm gonna do this. And it's like that- 100% builds our program, but then we don't realize, okay, now I'm in my 40s and I'm doing what my seven-year-old I'm running- Exactly my software system, right? Yeah. So I think that this is really cool. And especially- Yes, like looking at it that if you're a person that is always people pleasing or shape-shifting, you never feel safe to be yourself- Mm-hmm or you don't love yourself enough to be yourself. Yeah. And that's painful e- in and of itself, right? Oh, it's so stressful. So I think it's really cool that there's so many modalities and languaging now, and I think collectively, I think it's really cool your timeline 'cause my timeline's around the same time of like- Yeah when healing started Yeah and my business shifted. And I think that all these leaders are coming up to help the collective heal and come back home to themselves- Yeah so that they can, again, not put that Band-Aid on of "If I perform enough, if I do this enough," it's no, really at my core, can I go and love every single part of me? And sometimes I think when I do inner child healing, like thank them for- Mm for doing the very best that they could with what was there, you know? Totally. Yeah. But they don't have to carry the burden or the torch anymore. We can go in and- It's over love them, right? Yeah. I really would love to talk about attachment wounds- Yeah because I think that they're absolutely fascinating. When I was first learning about them, I was "Why would an anxious and avoidant get together?" Like that makes no sense. It seems actually rude. Yeah. But when you really go a little bit deeper, it makes total sense. Yeah. It's like they're the perfect mirror for you to learn what you didn't have and to, have that corrective experience for yourself. Does that make sense? Oh, it does completely. I mean, that's where relationships can be the one thing, the catalyst that makes us really change and heal, even if it was a really brutal, damaging, abusive relationship. We can be given that opportunity to actually look at- how to heal from this because it is a mirror. It shows us our faults and our darknesses and our weaknesses and everything. And if we lived in a vacuum or alone, we wouldn't see that. So we do need people to mirror us and as much as it is triggering and as much as it's very uncomfortable. So yeah, so it's funny too, back to, quickly the CPTSD element too is I kind of say it like this, is if you have a real understanding or you can sense that you have anxious attachment issues or avoidant attachment issues, well, that's under the umbrella of complex PTSD. It just doesn't need to feel so heavy or scary. Is back to kind of how I think I laid it out is you were hurt in a lot of little ways or frankly you were hurt in a lot of big ways. I mean, a lot of people of course have had extremely awful, like I've had extremely awful things happen to me, so it's very easy to see, very overt. But the majority of people have such a kind of quiet hurt- throughout their whole lives that it creates then these attachment issues. yeah, so I mean, for me, I had to wake up, and this work really helped me, and not even so long ago, only a few years ago, of how avoidant I am. And I got to lie to myself thinking, "I'm, I'm in tune, man. Like, I help people. Like, I, my parts, like my wife and I, we're good." But it's like this self-deception that came up. And so then I had to look at, well, how am I avoidant? Like, based on my childhood, like where does that pattern come from? and for me, and I don't know if it resonates with everybody, but particularly avoidant attachment is 'cause I learned that conflict was scary. Being wrong was scary. Being, ridiculed was scary. Your feelings were scary. Your parents' feelings were scary, so therefore feelings are scary. Bad things happen when someone's angry and all this thing. I know so many of my clients resonate with, "Oh, yeah, my mom was always so angry," or, "Yeah, my dad, the way he slammed a cupboard, I knew in what kind of mood he was in, and we knew how to, like, temper it or walk on eggshells," and all that kind of stuff. It's for me it was like not exactly just an avoidance behavior, but it's like, wow, there's a deep fear of conflict. And inside of that conflict, well, how can I protect myself? Avoid. And so then for me, again, back at, with that IFS element of I'm an avoidant. No, no. I have parts that help me avoid to keep me safe. Mm. and again, I always love to make that language hopefully approachable to people because it again also de-shames us, right? Like, oh my God, I'm such an attach- anxious attachment. Oh, I'm such an anxious avoidant. It's like, no, like parts of you are. 'Cause we do a lot of the I statements. I'm a people pleaser. I'm a mess-up. I'm an avoidant. But yeah, so once we can kind of look at it like, well, no, parts of you do it because that's how they protect you- things can shift. And also a big piece that I've understood is, and seen in my own life, is our brain loves patterns and what's normal. So- is your partner's anxious energy actually familiar? Does that feel familiar? Is there, is there a controlling nature or there's a jealous nature or whatever it might be, is that kind of familiar? Yeah. Or for somebody with an avoidant, is it actually kind of familiar that that's an unavailable person, or they shut down around your emotions, or they try to make you wrong, or they defend themselves all the time? Mm-hmm. You start to get quiet and be like, "Yeah, there's some familiarities there- Yeah in my childhood." Yeah. So again, it's like we're looking for actually what is familiar, and that's what we attract on top of a bigger spiritual level of needing to attract a mirror so that we can heal. yeah, so I don't know. I, you want to take over? We could kind of like talk in a little bit more sentences. Yeah, I would love to. Because I think I get a lot of people that come with relationship stuff, and it's like- they don't understand. They think, "Well, if I just love you more, if I just do this, or if I just have this conversation, then maybe I'll get... i'll penetrate that wall that's, blocking someone out," right? But sometimes that makes them put the wall up even higher because it's whoa, vulnerability or feelings or confrontation. Mm. So i- I think it's really interesting because you could think that you're... Like, for me, I know I'm anxious. And probably I can see it's my inner child wound of- Yeah abandonment. Mm. I'm afraid to be abandoned. Yeah. So it's like when he pulls back, my whole body l- is just like, you can't pull back, but that's, like, almost suffocating, right? Yeah. But I didn't realize any of this because I had two amazing, loving parents. I didn't... I would be the person that's like, "I had a great childhood. How could I have this?" Mm-hmm. But then I remember my four-year-old self really needing my mom- and she had two young babies like one newborn and one one-year-old. Yeah. That she had her hands full. So it wasn't... But in that moment, I internalized, I'm not worthy of love and attention- Yeah and my needs don't matter. And so, like hyper-independence, I'm, I'm just gonna take care of myself, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And because that's how I was gonna protect myself. Like, if you, if you can't give me the... So I could see that all playing out, but I never really realized that was something that we had through... Like, we've been together for 23 years. Yeah. I had no idea. It wasn't until last year, I was like- Mm I am, I wanna heal every insecurity that I have, and I wanna have secure attachment in myself- Yeah and in my marriage. And the universe was like, "Okay, let's, let's-" We're gonna show you. Oh, yeah. And it was like, it was very, very intense, but it was really cool because I almost wanna thank my husband because- he mirrored so beautifully to me where I didn't feel safe in myself, where I didn't love myself, where I thought I needed him to complete me because I couldn't do it for myself. And it's that's so sad, and I didn't realize that. So he did a really great job. But anyways, how can someone know Whether they have anxious or avoidant- Mm-hmm and w- how can they work with that in a relationship? Because I think relationships are so sticky. A lot of people if you're not, like, I can read energy. I'm very aware- Mm very self-aware. I was able to move through this, but a lot of people would be like, "You're a jerk. Why are you so cold? Why are you pulling away?" Mm. And like, "I'm not gonna love you," you know? And then it's like you're both not getting what you want, right? So- No, 100% how can people understand what attachment style they are and- how to work within themselves and within the relationship to communicate in a way that feels safe for both people? Yeah. It's, how integral is that to a successful relationship is first noticing how do I respond in moments of disconnection, right? Is I always say, well, first we gotta really kind of first look at yourself. Meaning, when you consider being with your own feelings, how do you feel? Do you feel anxious towards it or avoidant? It kind of simplifies it, but it's like, oh yeah, yeah, like I just push through. I, I move past it. Like, I don't wanna really, like, sit with it. Ugh, like, yeah, no thanks. Okay, well, that's pretty avoidant towards yourself, so therefore that's gonna probably show up and mimic in how you are towards a partner. And most clients are like, "Yeah, gosh," yeah, like, "When they say they had a shitty day at work, I can tell I check out." 'Cause it's like, oh, here's feelings. I can barely handle my own feelings. Don't wanna go there. Or then on the flip side it's like, oh, like, I can go inward and it's like I just wanna love myself so much and I don't even know how, and it's like so overwhelming, and it's like these feelings and it's so much j- anxiety. It's like, okay, there you go. So there's an anxiousness towards your own inner experience. So I don't know if that relates, but again, then you can look at it like, yeah, interesting. I guess then that's when I start to get anxious outside of me when I see certain behaviors. So I first always say first look at that inside of your own self. Can you be with yourself fully and with ease and with patience and with camaraderie and all of that stuff? Perfect. Then you probably got a pretty secure attachment to yourself already. But if you can't, then that lets you indicate one of those two things. 'Cause how we are with ourselves is how then we also show up in relationships- in that sense of the word. But so then the other one, of course, too, is around conflict. How do you react in conflict? For one, how are you perceiving conflict? 'Cause so much of it is just perception, is, is this conflict a conversation? Is this, a statement or is it criticism? Right? And that's also where you have to really be quiet with yourself and be like, "Is a part of me jumping to my defense because I think I'm being criticized right now?" Mm. That's really important. And most avoidants, that's why we're avoidants, 'cause, oh, well, anything you say it's a, it's a condemnation of me, or then anxious it's like, well, as soon as you pull away, as soon as you get quiet, you must not love me or you're about to leave or I did something wrong, and that's all interpretation. Right? So it's also a question that's almost practical. It's a bit coachy, but it's is there a part of me interpreting this as conflict or is a part of me, interpreting this as they hate me? Is a part of me interpreting this as criticism? And what's nice is when you ask that question, like ask yourself better questions, you get better answers. Mm-hmm. 'Cause you might hear like, "Yeah, well, you know, fuck her. Like, she doesn't even know what..." Oh, okay, whoa, whoa. There's this part of me inside of me. Whoa. Okay, you're jumping to my defense. Oh, you want to make her wrong. Interesting. Interesting. So now you can get qui- at least in the work I do and, like, with clients, I get to this place where it's like you can literally hear this part of you- Mm-hmm that starts to react or with anxiousness. No doubt you've experienced it, Pam, but I'm sure you can hear, "Well, why would I? I've tried everything. I could do everything perfect. Like, is it not... Is it... Why, do I need to do... Am I pretty enough? Is it, was I pushing too much? Oh my God, I'm too much. I'm too much." And it's like you can hear this inside of you, and then you get to be the calm and gentle adult and be like, "Hey, girl, whoa. Slow." "We're good. Why don't we ask if something's going on? And then let's not interpret it as we're being abandoned." Right? And then that's where things usually just start to shift. And at least with my wife and I, one big thing I had to wake up to was how personally I take everything. So with abandonment issues and rejection issues whether anxious or avoidant, doesn't really matter, is, yeah, yeah, how do we take the perception of being rejected or pressured or whatever. And so my wife really helped me see, in my way, I mean, yeah, my training has helped, but my wife is the one that, I mean, I owe anything to be honest, 'cause she's the one that's so bold and brave enough to, like, speak up and be direct with me. And, it's like you take everything personally. Yeah. And I'll share a moment in real time that I think may make sense to so many, and we're all healing and we're all on this journey together, is literally just the other day, I think last week, I had a long day. Good day, busy day, lots of activity. And, I come out of the office and I hadn't seen anyone in four hours and, and, the first thing she says to me is, "You know, you could have tidied up a little better." And it's like we could easily judge that and all that. But right away I'm like, "Okay, mm-hmm. Oh, okay, yeah. Oh, here we go. Yeah, could have tied up... Oh, I guess doing the dishes didn't matter." And I can hear this in my head. "Oh, I guess doing the dishes didn't matter. Okay. Well, I was just working for four hours. I'm running a business. I'm trying." And then that energy can hap- then come through. Yeah. Now all of a sudden I feel a wall up. Now all of a sudden I'm not really communicative. Now I'm averting eye contact. Now, this is for me, but I know a lot of people can relate. Yeah. And now it becomes this, like, kind of tension, and that's because in that moment, another word that we like to use in IFS is blended. The protective part of me that wanted to not feel shame or unlovable or that I'm the problem hardened me, and I could feel it blend with me, and it tried to take over. So I had to quickly notice it and unblend from it, and the work we do, you quickly and easily unblend from a part of you. Is then even without her saying anything I'm like, "Uh, yeah, look at this house." Four little kids. Like, we just had a baby, so she's got the baby strapped to her 'cause the baby won't let her put her down. and she's just stepped on a Lego, 'cause Legos strewn everywhere. And yeah, I've been in the office, but there were a few things. It's like, oh, yeah, that pile of mess was still there from this morning, and I, I could have thought to make your life easier while trying to parent- three little kids in a small space. Four little kids, jeez. Is, is that would be a lot. And so later that night she explained it to me. She's like, "You know," and she was upset. She's like, "You take everything so fucking personally." I hadn't drank any water. I had no sleep. I was up all night because I'm breastfeeding. "I think you forget that I'm a new mom." And I'm like, "Oh, okay, yeah." It's like, "I think you forget that there's three other little kids under eight years old just tearing the house apart and hitting each other. And yeah, you didn't do the dishes." So no, I had to go get them a water cup. Oh, gotta do a dish. Didn't get up. And it's like, okay. Mm. Yeah. Uh-huh. I get it, right? And so then for me to automatically just be like, "Oh, I'm the problem. Oh, it's you every time," she's... And I can, again, literally hear it. It's an accent, but I hear it in my system. Is that's what she meant by, "You take everything so personally." And if that makes sense, right? It does. It totally does. One thing that I've learned from avoidance is a lot of times, like from my, from what I've done in research, is that a lot of times they- When you say something, they literally feel like, "And here's another thing that I'm not doing right." Yeah. That's exactly what they hear. And I think when you can understand your partner, and if that's how they're feeling, I never wanna make my husband feel that way. Yeah. So oftentimes now my languaging is, "I really need support with this. I'm not coming at you. I know you did this, but-" would you be able to do this for me? And then he's able to see that I'm not actually pouncing- Yes or attacking him, that I'm just a partner that's asking for support or something like that. And equally, if he's like, "I don't have the space right now, but I do later," I'm like, okay, he's clearly communicating and not shutting me down. But before, it would be like, wall goes up. Yeah. And then when the wall goes up, I feel like his nervous system shuts down- Mm-hmm and it needs time. And once he has time, then he'll always come back, and we'll have a circle back, so we'll have that repair conversation. That's awesome. But in real time, like, when you don't know what's happening, you're just like, "What?" Like- Oh "What's happening?" You know? Yeah. But I think if you- That's- can understand your partner and the same way I've learned when he's like, "I need space," 'cause he's trying to regulate. And because sometimes emotions are hard. Like, if you don't- Mm-hmm know how to feel them, they've never felt safe. And logic, I find, a lot of people who don't feel safe to feel their emotions, do you find that they logically try to prove things? Like, they just- Mm sort of, bypass feelings and are, like- Yeah going right to logic. 100%. 100%. And that's where the fact, "Well, I did this and this and this and this," and it's like, she didn't say that you didn't do that. Yeah. Exactly. 'Cause I'll see that too. But I think when you can understand why they do what they do and why they need what they need, and you can communicate it from a place of respect, there's this understanding of like, "Oh, I see." So when he's like, "I need space," I always give it now. But he's very good at being like, "And I'll circle back when I'm ready." And I think that that- is just really helpful because- then I... and in the meantime, I've learned instead of being like, "Oh, no," when h- when anxiously waiting for him to come, I'm like, "I'm gonna go ground myself." Yeah. "I'm gonna go do something to love myself." I'm not gonna wait like a little puppy dog Yeah. Totally for him to come through. And that's where a lot of me you know, doing my own inner work has been really helpful in becoming- Yeah securely attached to myself. Oh, huge. Yeah. So it, it, I think it's totally an, an evolution, but I think when you can understand yourself and you start to understand them and you're languaging, it changes everything. Yeah. Is there anything... I feel like I could talk to you forever. I feel like we just got to the tip of the iceberg. Thank you. There's so many- I take that as a compliment. Yeah. There... It's just such a good conversation. I really wanna talk about mother wounds and father wounds- Yeah and all of the things. But I would love to ask you, as a, a wrapping this up question, 'cause we're at time- Okay what would you say to someone, 'cause I see people all the time who they know "Okay, I've had emotionally unavailable partners," and like, there's some work here. We can go in there 'cause you can see very clearly what's happening. Yeah. A lot of people are like, "I don't wanna do the work because it's too painful, it's too hard. Like, I just, I want to pretend it doesn't exist." Like, what would you say to them as, I guess, some inspiration on how transformational it is when you just allow yourself or give yourself the permission to opening up to healing? Yeah. Beautiful question. And, what most people struggle with is, yeah, "I don't wanna go there because what's the point? Why open Pandora's box?" Mm-hmm. "I mean, yeah, shitty things happened to me as a kid, but, like, I'm here now, I don't wanna talk about it." Or, yeah, "Oh, my God, it's so overwhelming, the thought of going inward or healing." Or, "I don't need that. I just need to fix my mindset," or- whatever it might be, right? or, "I just need to, like, spiritually ground, or I need to, like, connect to source more and better." It's like, that's cool, but what's happening in real time is the protective part of you is showing up, and it's as simple as that, is there's a part of you that's like, "I don't need this. I don't want this," because. And so very simply I would ask that person, and I, I'm going on a consultation call right after this. Somebody that does wanna work with me. We're gonna hear from her parts that are like yeah, I've tried everything, though, and I just don't know if, like, if, everything... Could it work for me? Like, I don't know." Or, or, "Oh, yeah, I've done so much inner child work. I don't really need to go there." Like, that is, for me, then that's the cue to be like, "Cool. This protective part of you's showing up to the conversation. Nice. What's it concerned about? Let's hear about those concerns." So it's not about battling or fighting against it. It's getting curious. Like, "Okay, well tell me more about that. W- what do you worry would happen if you go inward?" And then you might hear something a little different "Well, it'd be too much. I've built so much." I work with a lot of you know, successful people. "I've built so much it would come crashing down around me." "Oh, okay. Like, you're worried that if you go in you're gonna, like, dismantle the success you've created, but also the walls you've built." It's like, yeah. It's like, okay. What if it's possible that's not the case? And then you start to, like, build some trust with the fact that this protective part of you is first being respected by being spoken to. And that's where, again, this language does shift it a little bit 'Cause let's say somebody right now has opened up this podcast to be like, "Well, yeah, I'm kind of curious about healing. I've been following Pam for a little while," and like, "Yeah, like I want to learn about myself." Let's say some of the stuff I've been talking about today, they can start to shut off. "Oh, yeah, CP2C, I'm not interested in that, but I need to know why, like I'm stunted and stuck in my life and blah, blah, blah," is their protective system is just online always, watching and waiting for something that might cause concern or panic or overwhelm inside of them. so why this language is nice is because it's not that I'm not interested in doing the inner healing work. A part of me is afraid that if I do something bad will happen. So what if I get curious about that and listen to it and literally... So an individual can do it themselves. A listener right now could be like, "Yeah, I've always wanted to go into therapy and I haven't." Just quietly ask yourself, "What are you concerned would happen if you didn't protect me this way?" And then you'll probably hear, Oh, well," something. And then at least right there, there's a little, there's an iota of understanding. Interesting. So inside of me I have a real concern. But the fact that I even asked myself that instead of just trying to push past it or fully give into it and like then never, ever do the healing work or whatever, is now that's the first step of building some internal connections. Like, you're protecting me this way. I appreciate it. I want to learn more. Now that I've learned more, how about we try it anyway, and I promise now I'm a mature adult and I can handle it and... Or maybe if it is too much you can step in and, and we'll back out. So when someone's resistant, in my opinion, it's just simply it's a protective part of them that's resistant. So it's not the person's resistant, there is a protective part of them that is. And that usually resonates with people because they want to heal. They know something's off, and they want to look inward, right? That was like the best way that you could wrap up this podcast. Cool. I mean, it's, it just makes so much sense because it's like what part of you are, are you battling? And- Mm-hmm I love that when you can lean in with that curiosity, it's not judgment or- Mm-hmm shame, blame, guilt. It's like, huh, that's, that is a voice inside of me, and can I listen? So I think that's really beautiful. Is there any last thing that you want to share with listeners, or where can listeners find you? I want to share all of the resources. Oh, cool. Thank you so much. Well- Primarily is, it's kind of a simple message, but of course none of us are broken. We do have parts of us that take over and parts of us that are wounded, and if we can learn that it's parts of us and not all of us, usually right away that starts to kinda bring down the self-shaming and all that. Honestly, anybody that is struggling with any kind of anxiety or feeling stuck or feeling overwhelmed, even your experience, your mom was just overwhelmed. You were still hurting. Mm-hmm. So it's like really just being okay with, yeah, I was hurt, and then parts of me learned how to protect me from that hurt. And if we kind of boil it down to that, be like that's it. Like, how is that a broken person? How is that a mentally ill person? How is that someone who's a narcissist or anything like that? Yeah. All this like kinda social media, you know, psych diagnoses is this person's hurt and now they're protecting themselves from it in this particular way. And so I always like to say once you can get curious to yourself, it makes it a lot easier to see the light in other people 'cause it's, you're finally seeing the light in yourself. And then the last little piece is if you're in conflict- Attachment style, regardless, is nine times out of 10, you're in conversation with a little kid, and they're in conversation with your little kid. Yeah. And little kids can resolve things sometimes pretty cool, but often not, right? They need an adult to come in and help. And so when you actually do the inner work, whatever way that looks, that's you being the mature adult that can step in and help these two little kids who are kind of fighting on the playground, if that makes any sense. It totally makes sense. Yeah. I always say that to my husband. I'm like, "Oh, my inner f- five-year-old just got hurt." Like, that's what happened. Oh, totally. Or like, my pissed off, rebellious 16-year-old, you know, wants to burn down the world. Yeah, it just- Or whatever it is, you know? makes it, you have so much more compassion because you understand your- it's just your inner five-year-old. Right. That's it. Totally. So that's so helpful. Thank you so much, Jay. You're so welcome. Where can- so how people can find me, just to pitch myself a little to answer your question too. People can find me on social media, TikTok or Instagram is best. My handle is iamjaysachs, pretty straightforward. And in the links in my bio, people can book a free consultation call. We can spend up to an hour together hanging out, learning about how they want help, and seeing if my programs are a good fit. But also recently, I just launched a free guided audio series called The Self-Abandonment Reset. And so, yeah, it's a three-part audio series with an accompaniment journaling prompts guide that really helps you see the patterns of self-abandonment as it's happening and how to get ahead of it and to build that connection and compassion within yourself really quickly. So that's a free offering I have. So anybody wants to click the link in the bio and check that out, it's really cool. But yeah, so it's just a blessing to be here, and I'm so grateful to have met you, Pam. And yeah, I loved talking with you. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is such an amazing conversation, and I will definitely link your Instagram and your TikTok- Yes on, the show notes so that people can- Cool easily find you and get that free offering, 'cause it sounds absolutely fantastic. Thanks again, Jay. You're welcome. Yeah. Take care, Pam. Thank you for spending time with us today on Divine Health. If this conversation resonated with you, I would love for you to take a moment to pause and notice what feels aligned for you. What resonates? What is shifting inside of you? Where are you being inspired or motivated? And where are you being invited to grow into? This podcast is a beautiful reminder that health is not a destination, but an ongoing relationship with your body, your energy, your emotions, and your inner wisdom. It's also a lovely reminder that alignment happens in the small intentional choices that we get to make every single day. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast and share with someone who might need or enjoy this episode. Or you can leave a review. It helps to let other people know what this podcast is all about and grow this beautiful community. If you're not following me on the socials, be sure to check me out on TikTok @pam_rocca, Instagram at the same handle, or on Facebook. You can also connect with me on my website. All of those links are in the show notes. Until next week, stay present, stay connected, and continue choosing what supports your highest wellbeing and timeline