Episode 248 | Danny Layne and James DeGaffenreid - Bro. James (Part V)

Church hurt doesn’t just bruise your feelings, it can derail your faith, isolate your family, and make you wonder if unity in the body of Christ is even possible. We sit down with Brother James DeGraffenreid to talk plainly about spiritual abuse, controlling leadership, and the slow drift from Spirit-led worship into man rule. He shares what he witnessed in the COGR over time, why these patterns damage people, and how we can respond without turning bitter or giving up on the church.

We also get practical about church conflict and recovery. We walk through why believers have blind spots, why honest brotherhood matters, and how Matthew 18 offers a clear way to handle problems without feeding division. If you’ve ever felt pushed out, shamed into silence, or tempted to walk away from fellowship entirely, this conversation names that pain while pointing to a better path rooted in the Holy Spirit and the simplicity of the gospel.

Finally, we speak directly to parents and households watching all of this unfold. We talk about praying together, fasting when God leads, inviting people back to church again, and finding a congregation where Christ is lifted up and healing can actually happen. If this helped you, subscribe, share it with someone rebuilding their faith after religious trauma, and leave a review so more wounded hearts can find hope.

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome And Why We Gather

Prince Moon 0:01

Good day, listeners. We present to you our podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches. We discuss a variety of topics that are important to the church. Examples include sexual abuse, all types of addictions, religious abuse, and recovery. This platform provides counseling sessions, meetings for question and answer, and a counseling continuum. Our co-host includes to me, a technical director. We have an impressive array of program contributors. And I'm your host. My name is Prince, Father Maniaquser, Father One3C Program, Licensed Counselor, now retired. So join in this exciting podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches, and be a part of the healing process. So our friend, and I'm not just saying that, Brother James is here tonight to graph and read. He has some excellent content on YouTube and other programs. And you know, friends, we've been doing this five years now, approximately. And I've met some of the most wonderful saints. And this guy is one. He really is. We've been fast friends. We talk almost every day, sometimes twice a day. And uh it's just a blessing meeting people. When God has people that love God, you may not know there's a lot of them around here that you've maybe not met yet, but they're beautiful. That's true. Like this fella, my my good friend here. He has a burden for healing after being wounded around God's people. He has a burden to unity, and that's why he is here. So, Brother James, I'm glad you're here, man, for being here tonight. Love this guy.

Meeting Brother James And His Work

Prince Moon 1:50

All right, my friend, how can we contact you? What's your contact information, please?

James DeGraffenreid 1:56

Brother Moon, I administer on Facebook C-O-G-R Chronicles Exposing the Shadows. My Facebook, my personal Facebook is James Rollins, D Grafenread. Um Brother Bernie Tahoke and I are starting a web page and YouTube, Let Us Reason Together. Um, you can reach out to me in either any of these places, and I'll be happy to talk, communicate with whoever would want to talk. I'm I'm thankful for everyone, as you said. Uh I believe the Lord is doing a wonderful work here in this day and this time. He's uh fulfilling his prayer to the Father, that we be one as he and his father are one. Brother, that's that's a wonderful prayer that Christ prayed for his church, for his children. And brother, we can we can we can rest in that and rely on that and be encouraged and be encouraged in that, brother Moon. This is yes, this is our time. Yes, this we you know the the church has been in the world for over 2,000 years now, and here we are in 2026, and the Lord has allowed us to be here, brother. This is our time to stand before Christ and to lift him up and to and to do as he gave us the great commission: go into all the world and preach his gospel. He promised that there would be souls saved. Yes, and he promised that he would build his church, brother Moon. Brother, that is that is just as real today as the day that Jesus spoke it. And we're thankful for that, brother. That's what we're encouraged for this podcast, for this opportunity to share with you and to labor with you and to be faithful as you're being faithful. And as you say, this is our podcast, yes, yes, to labor together, to labor together, brother Modus.

Prince Moon 4:15

Yes, yes, yes. Anyway, let me emphasize that this is our podcast, this is not our engineers or mine, this is ours. We have folks with us, uh five with us, of course, but this is a group we we endeavor as a church, every bloodwashed one, to pull together to be unified. That is our main focus.

Remembering A Healthier Church Past

Prince Moon 4:37

Take us back to your early years. What happened? What changed? What was the experience about that?

James DeGraffenreid 4:43

Well, brother, when I first met the COGR in 1994, brother, it was not what it is today. It was it was made up entirely of dear Christians who wanted to worship the Lord in spirit and truth. We wanted to be what the Lord was calling us to be. We wanted to be what what the Church of God pre preaches, what the church of God message is. It was truly that, Brother Moon. There was nothing, all of the evil, all of the man rule that has come to you know uh the front in the last several years, there was none of that then. Now, what I have to say, brother, is this we have to acknowledge for it for it to to uh become what it's become, and for it to uh preach the the man the man rule, the man prophecy made up by man, promoted by man. Uh God has not been in it for the for the last several years. But when I first met them, brother, it was not like that. We had heavenly, as the word says, we sat together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Um the singing, brother, it was heavenly. Um the preaching was preaching from the word to deny ourselves and to take up our cross daily and follow Christ Jesus. Uh, but as I started to say, brother, there had to be an element, and I believe what the element was, Danny Lane, brother Danny Lane, was uh he had lived on the streets for 20 years, 19 to 20 years. Um he personally, in his nature, was very controlling. He ruled, he he literally ruled this the C O G R with an iron fist. And that is that is not an exaggeration. And as I look back on it now, Brother Moon, it would seem to me that that that was the beginning of uh what has happened there and the demise of that wonderful place that I knew when I first found it.

Prince Moon 7:23

Yeah, are there any comments for our listeners before we go on?

Tennille McLeod 7:25

Not at the moment, no, sir.

When Leadership Becomes Control

Prince Moon 7:27

Brother James, can a minister or pastor can he uh sense that he's hurting people, or is it simply just he doesn't know what he's doing? But can he sense that he is hurting people? Can he sense that, do you think?

James DeGraffenreid 7:44

Brother, it takes the Holy Spirit to help help us to see ourselves. And brother Moon, the the reality is we all have blind spots that we we don't see ourselves. We need we need the fellowship of of brothers who are who are walking with the Lord and who will be open and honest and forthright with us and help us to see things that we don't see. The the sad truth of the matter is, brother Moon, and I again as I've said before, I don't want to hurt anyone.

Prince Moon 8:18

Sure.

James DeGraffenreid 8:18

Don't want to don't want to be mean, but it would seem to me that even in it wouldn't matter what congregation, it would seem to me that this should be uh the foremost uh prayer of a pastor is Lord, help me, help me, Lord, to be lost in you. Yes, yeah, help me to be filled with your Holy Spirit, Lord, help me, Lord, to be an honor to you and to lift you up. Brother, that's what we need. And the sad reality, Brother Moon, it seems as though in many places, uh, it they may not be C-O-G-R, uh, but in many places where people are gathering to find help and healing, to find salvation, brother, it's nothing more than a social club, it's nothing more than a than a place of entertainment, and they may not be Danny Lane, but the pastor is in control. And in many, in many cases, they've they've pushed the Holy Spirit out. They pushed the Holy Spirit to the side, and it's it has become man rule, brother, brother Moon. And there is the danger, brother. Now, the Lord, the Lord can bless and can keep the enemy at bay. Where the enemy has has no place to do what we're speaking about now. As we draw close to Christ, the enemy can't stay. He he's not gonna stay where where we are at Jesus' feet. And that's what we need, Brother Moon. I believe more than anything now. Uh, in so many places, the pastors have lost, they've lost that close place with the Lord themselves, and therefore they can't be the light, they can't be the pastor that the Lord would want them to be to help be a help and healing to those who are coming there. And many many people get discouraged and just leave.

Prince Moon 10:28

Wow. Any comments from our listeners?

Seeing Blind Spots And Staying Spirit-Led

Tennille McLeod 10:30

I do have a comment from Larry Fluellen209. He says, Brother James, how would you handle problems in the church?

James DeGraffenreid 10:42

Well, uh, we could go to Matthew 18 uh and follow that uh passage. Uh the Lord has made it so that there should be no division in the church. We may not see everything as we've talked, I think, in a previous conversation with Brother Moon. Uh, you know, someone might see more, be more further along in their walk with Christ, but that doesn't mean that they're any better or any more uh blessed than the baby, the baby in Christ who's just received Jesus and and's feeding on the milk of the word. Uh division is of the devil.

Prince Moon 11:31

That's right. That's right. That's right.

James DeGraffenreid 11:33

That's right. The Lord, the Holy Spirit, I believe I heard Brother Moon when he was speaking to another person weeks ago on on this podcast, he brought out that the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will bring unity. Yes, yes, the Holy Spirit will bring healing, yeah, yeah, the Holy Spirit will bring help, and as we individually submit ourselves to the dealings of the Holy Spirit, as each of us are sensitive to the dealings of the Holy Spirit, brother, we will be one in Christ. Amen. Amen. There's nothing the devil can do to separate the children of God, amen. Amen. That's right. He tried, he tries real hard, and the sad truth, the sad truth of the matter is he's able to be successful in many ways because people don't cling to the Lord, they don't cling to the dealings of the Holy Spirit. And brother, we have to admit the the the organized church, under whatever name it goes by today, has been so affected by the world, in many cases, we've forgotten the simple the simplicity of the gospel.

Prince Moon 12:50

And brother James, we have to maintain a certain nearness to God, so if things do occur, we can be steadfast and but many times if we're not in a certain place, we are susceptible to division, susceptible to strife. Am I right or wrong about that? What do you think about that?

James DeGraffenreid 13:09

Amen, amen. That's true, brother Moon. That's so true. It it hinges on our relationship with Christ.

Prince Moon 13:18

So important.

James DeGraffenreid 13:19

That's that's the key, brother Moon.

Prince Moon 13:22

Yes, it is.

James DeGraffenreid 13:22

As we are one, as Jesus prayed that we would be one. Yes, brother, the devil's not gonna be able to get in and cause strife, not gonna be able to cause division. True. Uh we're not gonna be looking for what our brother doesn't agree with us on. We're gonna be praising God for what we're what we're walking in, the truth of the scripture, the light of Christ as he leads us, and the blessing of the fellowship of the saints in the Holy Spirit. Brother, there's nothing there's no there's nothing that can replace that. Amen. It's not about what's it's not what not what's in our head, brother Moon. It's what in our heart, and what the Lord, what the Lord does, what the Lord does when he saves a soul. It's true. And he brings us in his church. Amen. Any comments?

Prince Moon 14:16

Any any comments from our listeners?

Tennille McLeod 14:18

Amen, brother, was Larry Fluellen's 209 comment.

Conflict Repair Using Matthew 18

Prince Moon 14:23

Uh, brother James, we know that there's been a lot of division throughout the past uh 100 years or so uh across lines, countries. We get mail from I mean Africa, etc., etc. And we know that these things do occur, but one issue is how to recover from these things. Again, I mentioned AA, Alcoholics for Christ, Narcotics for Christ, they have millions in those groups because they follow the model of recovery. In my counseling background, I spent years discussing this idea of recovery. How does one recover after going through division or splits? How can one recover from that?

James DeGraffenreid 15:13

Well, Brother Moon. On an individual basis, if someone has been hurt and someone has become discouraged, and they have left the fellowship of the saints, they have to seek the Lord themselves and ask God to help them to forgive. Before someone, if someone's uh offended or someone has uh hurt them, you know, the Lord can help and bring forgiveness and and healing to that person, that individual, whether whether they're ever apolog given an apology or not, the Lord has healing and help. Uh that would be for the first step for an individual who has who the enemy has been successful to separate uh away from the from the church, from the body. Um and then after they find that that place of healing with the Lord and giving it to the Lord, they need to just step out and and and let the Lord help them, let the Lord lead them uh to get back in the fellowship of the saints. We need

Recovery After Splits And Isolation

James DeGraffenreid 16:38

to be we need each other.

Prince Moon 16:39

That's true. That's true.

James DeGraffenreid 16:41

We the the devil wants to alienate, he wants to separate, he wants to get a deer one out alone where he can devour them.

Prince Moon 16:50

Why does he want why does he want to separate? Why does the devil like to separate God's people? What does he get out of that?

James DeGraffenreid 16:57

Well, it's easier for him to attack and to well, the word of God says two are better than one.

Speaker 2 17:04

Yes, that's right.

James DeGraffenreid 17:06

If we fall when we're alone, we don't have a brother there to help us up. And uh that that would be the main reason why the devil tries to to separate and divide. The other thing is he's going to try in every way to hinder a soul from being what the Lord has called them to be. Uh Jesus wants to be a light through his children to a lost and a dying world. If the devil can get you out there on your own, discouraged and defeated, you're not going to be able to be the light that the Lord wants

Why The Enemy Targets Fellowship

James DeGraffenreid 17:40

you to be.

Prince Moon 17:40

That's true. Brother James, talk to a parent now who's not attending services and they have children that are looking on. Any advice to that child, that mom? Any advice to them?

James DeGraffenreid 17:54

Well, I was I was thinking about that this week, brother, and I want to bring this up for everyone who's listening, every every child of God, every congregation, every congregation, under no matter what banner your your your your door has oh you have over your door, every congregation of Christ. Of course, we are we are specifically uh sharing with the church of God because that's that's what we know.

Tennille McLeod 18:27

Yes.

James DeGraffenreid 18:27

But brother, I want to encourage every congregation, every mother, every father, every child who has a parent who's not saved, whoever we are, wherever we are, I'm gonna encourage all of us to pray. Sincerely lift up our but our burden before the Lord. If it's a mother who has a child who's lost, who's out there in the in the world. I'm encouraging congregations to pray together. And if the Lord lays it on your heart, fast and pray together for your loved ones, for your neighbors, that the Lord will help you to invite people, and that when they come to your service, that the Lord will lay a message, the gospel of Jesus on the pastor's heart to lift Jesus up. Brother, if we are faithful to the Lord, God is going to bless. There's no there's no other way that the devil can't stop it. And that's my answer to you,

Advice For Parents And Families Watching

James DeGraffenreid 19:40

Brother Moon. I believe we as the children of God, we need to ask the Lord to help us to be faithful, to be careful in our dealings with our families, our friends, our co-workers, uh, our neighbors, uh to be careful and prayerful and invite them. We need to get back to inviting our friends, our neighbors, our children, our family. No matter, no matter what has happened in the past. We need to be in our closets praying to the Lord and asking God to help us to be a help and a blessing to souls, brother. And and and brother Moon, as we do that, as we are faithful as the body of Christ, Christ is going to do what he promised to do. Uh, it's it's no different today. In fact, in some ways, I feel like the Lord, it it's mercy, it's God's mercy that's allowing this whole world to get as bad as it is, to try to wake people up. Yes, try to help people to see this. Listen, brother, there is a reality in serving God. This world is not our home, brother. This world is gonna come to an end, and it's gonna matter where we have served the Lord in this life, where we will spend eternity. And we need, with the help of the Lord, to live our lives in such a way that our lives bring conviction to our family and to those that we meet.

Tennille McLeod 21:13

That's true.

Prince Moon 21:14

So, Brother James, if someone is not attending services, they need the fellowship, don't they? They need that fellowship, oh, that connection. And I appreciate you. You've been through a very traumatic experience. In fact, the past couple we talked about this, past podcast, been through a lot, but yet you've not let that stop you. Yet you're doing programs, yet you're reaching out, trying to start a work there in your city. And so you want to be around the saints, you want the fellowship, and you found that through us, and we thank God for that. So the person is sitting home isolated, they need to be in church.

Pray, Fast, Invite And Stay Faithful

Prince Moon 21:54

Am I right or wrong?

James DeGraffenreid 21:55

Amen. The word says don't forsake the assembly of yourselves together. as the manner of some is the word of God is true brother Moon we need we need as a as the the Lord told me when he saved me you need to remember my promises and and put your faith in what I in what I say don't listen don't listen to the devil he's he's a liar um you you you can't you can't give him any place brother I wanted with the help of the Lord I have a short post that I made this week if you'd let me read it I feel letter of the Lord I I've been in contact with some ministers in the COGR and I I want to read this I posted this dear dear ones please remember that our burden here on COGR Chronicles exposing the shadows is twofold one we've tried to expose the evils of the COGR using their own words and deeds two we've shared the good news of the gospel of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ we have endeavored to help the ones still in the COGR and the ones who have left the COGR to see the differences and remember God's love for them. We have also tried to warn everyone the evils and the dangers of the COGR we love the dear ones who remain trapped in the COGR. We continue to pray for them we've been in contact with ministers who are in the COGR who have a burden as we do please pray for them that God will guide them and help them to cry aloud and spare not time will tell when the evil COGR dragon is slain or if it lives on now dear brother moon that's my burden uh and as I said I speak about the COGR because I've had personal experience there and I know I know so many of those dear people and I've read I'm reaching out to them brother just as you're reaching out here as we are reaching out here on this podcast thank you we're

Exposing Harm While Pointing To Hope

James DeGraffenreid 24:20

reaching out and we're giving hope and we're we're trying to remind people the goodness of God. Amen listen there's been so many people who've been hurt brother moon they've been damaged they've been uh abused and and and many of many of many of them have been abused in the name of people who are supposed to be their pastors and their ministers of the gospel and brother I I just want to encourage everyone as you've encouraged them to trust the Lord God is your savior Jesus died for you mankind has nothing to offer mankind has nothing to offer brother moon only you know Paul said follow me as I follow Christ brother I would share this in love let the Holy Spirit lead you dear souls dear brothers and sisters in Christ let the Holy Spirit guide you and convict you if you're not worshiping the Lord in a place that's lifting up Jesus leave it find a place where Christ is king brother James does God have a place for them to work can God guide them somewhere to worship amen brother brother you know we're we're we're preaching to the church of God we're preaching to our brothers and sisters wherever they are you know there look the the last count I had brother moon there was over 490 different places that called themselves church of God something that that's a that that's a shame and a disgrace brother moon it is it is it is now listen we we are one in Christ amen we we need to look for for for what Jesus gave us and be what Jesus told us to be we need to be what he prayed we would be to be one as he and it and his father are one that is church of God brother Mood amen amen we have the message yes the church of God has the message brother yes yes yes we need to be faithful we need to be faithful yes we need to do what the Lord asked us and commanded us to do brother and he will bless we we need to look for we need to look for our instead of trying to find the differences brother we need to rejoice in the Holy Ghost and and and and

Final Charge And Closing Blessing

James DeGraffenreid 26:55

the oneness that Christ has for his people brother James our time is we went beyond tonight but we're happy to have you here again we'll see you next week those who chimed in thank you so much tonight we just glad you're part of this our program engineer thank you so much and those that have heard uh feel free to text us throughout the week and we'll see you next week may the Lord bless you thanks you again brother James and our engineer have a good night