Episode 249 | Danny Layne and James DeGaffenreid - Bro. James (Part VI)

They locked him out of the camp meeting, not because he was violent, but because they were afraid people might listen and leave. That moment opens a bigger conversation about spiritual abuse, religious trauma, and the way cult-like control can train believers to trust leaders more than Jesus.

We sit down with James DeGraffenreid to talk about what “man rule” looks like in real life, why destructive groups often isolate and manipulate, and how to start healing without drifting into bitterness or unbelief. James shares where to find his resources (COGR Chronicles: Exposing the Shadows, plus Let Us Reason Together) and answers a listener question about Bernie Tahoke’s videos on the Destructive Cults YouTube channel. If you’ve been trying to make sense of church hurt, shunning, or fear-based religion, you’ll hear language that helps you name what happened and separate Christ from control.

We also get practical: why staying home can deepen wounds, how honest Christian community helps with blind spots, and what to say to children caught in church splits and confusion. James shares a personal story about his son’s severe asthma and a faith decision that still moves him, then offers a simple prayer for anyone at the end of themselves: “Lord, help me.”

If this conversation resonates, subscribe, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave a review so more wounded people can find a path toward healing and a healthier church.

Visit us online: https://woundedheartswoundedchurches.com

Transcript

Welcome And Healing Mission

Prince Moon 0:01

Good day, listeners. We present to you our podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches. We discuss a variety of topics that are important to the church. Examples include sexual abuse, all types of addictions, religious abuse, and recovery. This platform provides counseling sessions, meetings for question and answer, and a counseling continuum. Our co-host includes Jamila, our technical director. We have an impressive array of program contributors. And I'm your host. My name is Prince, founder of Antioch U Center, 513C Program, Licensed Counselor, now retired. So join in this exciting podcast, Wounded Hearts, Wounded Churches, and be a part of the healing process.

Meet James And His Burden

Prince Moon 0:52

Yeah, we have a friend of mine. I'm saying that out of sincerity and truth, Brother James De Grafenried. I love that name, don't you? DeGrafenried. Man, that sounds nice. I like that name. Beautiful name. He has excellent content, friends, on YouTube, Facebook, etc. And he has a burden for God's people, a burden for unity. For those who've been wounded in different sects and cults, he that's his burden. Two people reunited and recovered. He has a love for the church of God. Great burden for people who've been wounded. Again, I say. And again, he can be uh his content, internet, YouTube, everywhere, and you can pick that up. But he's a switch of recovery is what he's after. Well, James, here tonight. A good man for being here. And we're just glad to have Billy James here. And he knows I mean that. He and I talk two or three times a day sometime, but we're just glad to have Jane. Before we start, how can we uh access your content? What's your phone number? What's your email address? How can we get your information? So important to those who want to hear from you, Brother Moon.

Where To Find Their Resources

James DeGraffenreid 2:02

My contact information is found on Facebook uh C-O-G-R Chronicles, Exposing the Shadows. My phone number, my address, uh, you can message me there. My Facebook is my name, James Rollins to Grafenread. Brother Bernie Tahoke and I have started a web page and YouTube, and now we're on Facebook also, Let Us Reason Together. There's several Let Us Reasons Together. Um, look for a waterfall. Brother Bernie loves waterfalls. So we got a waterfall at the head of our page. Um, Brother Bernie's content, his videos, he's gonna be uh making audio versions of the books that he's written. Um, there's a lot of good content there, uh exposing the C O G

How Cult Control Replaces Christ

James DeGraffenreid 3:07

R. And we speak of the C O G R because that's where we were a part of it for a number of years. So we speak about that, but Brother Moon, what we learned there is really effectual for any cult. Uh cult cult cults uh are all man rule, they are all uh manipulating and and moving in people's lives to hurt them, to separate them from a father in heaven who loves them and from Christ who died for their sins. Uh that's what cults do. They they they take the place of Christ. They require their people to put their faith and trust in man and uh man rule. And that's the danger of a of a cult. So what Bernie has done, what I've tried to do, we tried to expose the the evils, the dangers that we were expir with that we experienced in the COGR and hope and pray that it will be a help to those who even are still in there. Brother, we have a love, we have a burden for everyone. Uh many of these dear ones I would I worshiped with. Uh they're like my family. And uh I tried to go last summer to the international camp meeting in West Milton, Ohio, and they would not let me come in. Uh they're afraid of me, Brother Moon. They're afraid that I have still have influence on their people, and they're afraid that there will be those who would listen and be, you know, in encouraged to leave.

Prince Moon 5:03

Friends, we want to go right ahead. Finish your thought.

James DeGraffenreid 5:07

We're thankful. We're thankful for our podcast, Brother Moon. Thankful that we can share Christ's love, that we can lift him up, that we can remind everyone that Jesus died that we might be saved, that we can't look to man, uh, we can't trust man. We have to trust the Lord Jesus. Yes, yes, we have to be sensitive to the dealings of his Holy Spirit in our life. Nothing, nothing takes the place of God's word and God's spirit, brother. That's what God has given to a lost and a dying world, brother. And that's why we're so thankful for this podcast. And as you've you've drilled it in me, brother Moon, this is that this is our podcast. Ours, yes, yes, to share the love of Christ and to be faithful in this day. This is our time, dear brother, to stand and to be counted for the Lord.

Don’t Isolate After Church Hurt

Prince Moon 6:04

Brother James, uh, I appreciate you. You have been through some religious trauma, say the least. It's had an effect on you. But you're not staying home isolating. You you're reaching out, trying to start a new church, plan a church, you have a new job working with young people, you're you're fellowshipping. You didn't let that cause you to isolate, you didn't let that cause you to just be by yourself. And and I appreciate that because what you're bringing to the people you I've been through it, I God brought me through, and he can bring you through too. So, what do you tell people that are sitting home wounded and just stop coming to church?

James DeGraffenreid 6:51

Well, Brother Moon, I would share this. The devil wants to isolate and separate, he wants to divide, he wants to get someone out alone to where he can devour them. We need we need our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Prince Moon 7:11

Yes, we do.

James DeGraffenreid 7:12

God's word tells us that two are better than one, and a threefold cord is hardly broken, brother. We need brothers. We need we all have blind spots, brother Moon, that we can't we can't see. We need brothers and sisters. And the word says, if if we're alone when we fall, we don't have anyone to help us get back up. Brother, these are biblical truths, these are these are what God teaches us. And dear brother, as I've shared with you, when I was lost and far from the Lord, I was listening to the devil, I was out on my own, isolated, I was in in serious, serious trouble. It was the Lord who came looking for me. And he helped me to know, brother. I've shared with you, he helped me to know I can't listen to the devil. I've got to remember his promises. So to answer your question, anyone in the in the situation that you described, their home, they're they've been isolated, maybe they've been hurt, maybe someone did something to mistreat them. Uh, maybe they feel like nobody cares. Yeah, but that's not true, brother. The Lord has a church, the Lord has people who love every soul, yes, whether they're saved, whether they're lost, wherever they are, the Lord has a people who love as Jesus loves and who cares for their soul, for their soul's sake. So I would encourage someone, don't let your feelings get the best of you. Don't listen to the devil and his lies. You do what you know the Lord would have you to do. You get up, you get up on Sunday morning and you find a place where God is is uh lifted up, where Jesus is lifted up, and you find his children who will love you and who will pour oil and wine into your into your uh heart, into your heartache, and into your the what's hurt you, and let the Lord help you, let the Lord help you to find him again, brother. That's what they need to do, brother. They can't listen to the devil, they can't they can't sit at home, brother Moon. That's what the devil wants them to do. They have to do what Jesus wants them to do, and and Paul said, Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together as the manner of some is, brother. We have to find those that love the Lord, those that will love us for our soul's sake, those that will tell us what we don't see in our blind spots. We need people to be honest with us and truthful. We don't need a yes, man. We need somebody to love us and tell us the truth and help us find the Lord. That's what we need, brother.

Bernie’s Channel And A Prayer Request

Prince Moon 10:15

I'm sad tonight. Our time is almost gone. Can you believe it? But we do have some calls coming in. Thank you very much for that, my friend. I appreciate it very much. Any comments?

Tennille McLeod 10:27

I do. I have a comment from Unshackled Mark 13-22. Uh, it states, what's Bernie's YouTube channel? Where people can see his story.

James DeGraffenreid 10:39

Bernie has two YouTube channels, Brother Moon. He has Destructive Cults. That was started by Brother Dan Anderson for him. And brother Dan has loaded several videos of Brother Bernie's on destructive cults on YouTube. We're trying to figure out how to load them on Let Us Reason Together, but I'm not very well versed in how to figure out how to load them, Brother Moon. So we're in a process of getting the website and the Facebook and the YouTube Let Us Reason Together. That's all a work in progress. But Brother Dan set up destructive cults on YouTube. You can find Bernie Tahoke there. And Brother Bernie has several videos uh that are good content. And I'm looking forward to the day when Brother Bernie's going to be here on our podcast and going to be able to talk with you, Brother Moon.

Prince Moon 11:37

Now give me your give me your information again. How can we contact you? One more time, your information, please.

James DeGraffenreid 11:43

Facebook, C O G R Chronicles, Exposing the Shadows. Uh, my personal name, James Rollins deGrafenreed, uh website, YouTube, and Facebook, Let Us Reason Together. I'm also on Brother Bernie's uh YouTube Destructive Cult. So, brother, if they want to find me, they can find me. Uh my my phone numbers posted. They can message me on any of these sites. I will be open to anyone who wants to contact me. Brother Moon, let me go. Before we go, I just I just received word yesterday the Lord has given me a job. Yes. Uh, I'm gonna be working with with young men up to the age of 18, wow, uh, who are they wards of the state, and I'm trusting the Lord is gonna help me to be able to share the love of Christ. I'm asking our brothers and sisters over the world, those who are hearing our podcast, when they think of this old man, pray for me. Ask God to help me to be a witness, a light to these young men, brother. Help help ask God to help me, brother Moon. That's my prayer request.

Helping Kids Caught In Splits

Prince Moon 12:59

What a beautiful employment uh in our time. Okay, now when these splits occur and division occurs, Brother James, we forget about the children. Side note, in 1900, there were about 55,000 divorces. Today we have over 600,000. Now, when those families stayed together, they had problems, but they were concerned about their children. Now, during that time, we call the generation the greatest generation because those they stayed together. But many times in these divisions, the children are the ones that get the brunt of the pain. They're the ones that end up bitter, homosexuality, atheism, and we forget our children. What would be your advice to children? They're in the middle of a church split, uh, they thought they were in the right church, but they weren't, or now they are, but they're not, they're not sure. They're confusing. Any advice to them?

James DeGraffenreid 14:04

I would encourage the young people, the children who've been indoctrinated, uh, told that they should put faith and trust in man. I would encourage the young people, read the word of God, ask Jesus to speak to your heart as you read his word. Uh, brother Moon, I had a wonderful walk with the Lord when I was an early teenager. I read, I read the New Testament through and through. The Lord was faithful, he spoke to my heart, the Holy Spirit dealt with me, pulled me close to the Lord, helped me to see things. That's what children need. They don't, and if they don't have it, if they don't have parents living for the Lord to help them, if they don't have a church home, even if they've been in a place that has not lifted Jesus up, I encourage the young people, seek the Lord. Yeah, He promises that He will He says, if you seek Him with all of your heart, you'll find H you'll find Him. That's what they need, brother. They need a close personal relationship with Jesus.

Prince Moon 15:20

And we all need that. We all need that, don't we? All need that to maintain Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 15:24

But young people can find the Lord, brother. They don't need they don't need an adult. Brother Jesus will be their Lord, their savior. They can have a wonderful relationship with Christ, and and and the Lord can protect them and heal them and help

A Father And Son Choose Faith

James DeGraffenreid 15:41

them.

Prince Moon 15:41

So much done, Pack here. But brother James, tell me about your son. Uh, if you don't mind, I know he was miraculously. Tell us about that, please.

James DeGraffenreid 15:52

Brother, when my son was uh a boy, uh just a baby, he had asthma terribly. He would get so uh affected by it, he would turn blue and literally pass out. It was a scary thing. The moment that he would pass out, he would start breathing. Wow, his body would relax. But but the Lord laid it upon my heart, the Lord laid it upon my heart, brother. I I was a church of God minister. Wow. And the Lord laid it upon my heart to ask my son, John, do you want me to take you to the doctors or do you want us to trust the Lord? Brother Moon, he looked up at me in those little eyes. He wasn't, he wasn't, he I believe he was about five years old. He looked up at me with little eyes and he said, Dad, I want to trust the Lord. And it was my son and me that we were the only two, Brother Moon. Our pastor at the time did not uh join in with us. My pastor at the time tried to get me to take my son to the doctors. Uh I would have taken my son to the doctors if he told me he wanted me to, but I felt like the Lord was in it. My my little boy had faith. And he he suffered, Brother Moon. Even after we started trusting the Lord and asking the Lord to heal him, he still had times where he we had to really pray. And at the there would be times we would go to a camp meeting. I'd have different ministers come to me and tell me, you need to take him to the doctor. I was the only one, and I'm not saying this to build myself up. My son John and I were the only ones who trusted the Lord. And brother, you could hear my son leave the singing today. My son, my son has a voice. God has blessed him. And I said to my son just last week, John, it's a miracle what God is doing. And he said he said, Dad, you're right, it is.

Prince Moon 17:52

Well, see now, parents, you can put faith in your child by the way you raise him. Now, Brother James's ministers weren't supportive in that, but he fed his son, supported his son in faith, and his son is saved today, 30, 40 years later, and he was healed. So, what I'm saying is, Brother James, you've been through a tough situation, but yet you're able to get the blessing of staying faithful to God and seeing your son healed. And friends, God does heal today. I want I want to make that clear, okay.

James DeGraffenreid 18:28

Amen. He's just the same today, brother. Just the same today.

Prince Moon 18:33

And we're trying to feed your faith to keep you solid, to keep you strong, and to go on trusting God. Brother James, any conclusion in any more discussion before we conclude tonight?

James DeGraffenreid 18:45

Brother, praise God. Praise God, brother Moon. Praise God, brother. We we praise God for open for what he's doing, brother. And we trust, we trust that our brothers and sisters across this world will be encouraged in our Lord Jesus, that there'll be many souls who find the healing, the help, the reconciliation, the forgiveness in God's church, brother. Jesus prayed that we would be one as he and his father were one, brother Moon. That's what we pray, and that's what God's doing, brother, in this day and age. God's doing it just like he promised he

Pray Right Now And Hold On

James DeGraffenreid 19:27

would.

Prince Moon 19:27

In fact, how about right now, Brother James? Maybe someone here is wounded, uh, hasn't been to church. Maybe someone's disillusioned about church, maybe someone has been wounded or wounded others, maybe they're just not sure. What should they do right now? What can we do at this moment right now?

James DeGraffenreid 19:45

Pray, brother. If they can't do anything but ask God to help them, they need to pray that prayer. Lord, help me. Help me, Lord. I need your help. Pray it from your heart. Ask God to help you. Brother, I shared my testimony. I prayed that prayer. I can't tell you the number of times I asked the Lord to help me. He let me get very low. But he heard that prayer. And that's all I could pray. Lord help me. And he heard my prayer. He helped me to be saved, brother. He saved my soul. So I would encourage someone, if you're discouraged, if it's been a while since you felt the Lord deal with your heart, you read you reach out. God's word is true, his promises are for you. And he will help you. He will hear your prayer and he'll come and he'll find you.

Prince Moon 20:42

Should they do that right? Should they do it right now or with the tomorrow?

James DeGraffenreid 20:45

No, no, do it right now.

Prince Moon 20:48

Right now.

James DeGraffenreid 20:49

Ask the Lord, Lord, help me. Help me, dear Lord. I need your help.

Prince Moon 20:54

No matter what this says, no matter what's going on, uh, church situation, home situation. Does it matter? Does it matter what they're going through?

James DeGraffenreid 21:03

It doesn't matter, Brother Moon. It doesn't matter. We have to reach out to the one who can help us, and that's Jesus. Jesus knows us. He knows the Bible says he was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin. He knows us. And brother, he's not there to put his foot on us, he's there to to wrap us in his arms and to forgive and to heal and to restore, brother.

Prince Moon 21:34

Brother James, doesn't God love us? Does God love us?

James DeGraffenreid 21:36

Does the God amen, brother? God loves us. Listen, brother, God loves us more than we're even able to know He loves us, Brother Moon. There's more love that God has for mankind. And brother Jesus said he came to seek and to save the one that need his needs his help. You don't, you know, that's a mistake a lot. Of people make they think they want to clean themselves up before they come to Christ. That's not the way it works. We come to the Lord as we are.

Prince Moon 22:09

Yes, come as you are.

James DeGraffenreid 22:10

And we ask Him to forgive us. And we ask Him to help us. We ask Him to save us. We we we trust Him. We we put Him uh we put Him on. We put on the Lord Jesus Christ. And that's what God sees. God doesn't well, there's nothing we have to offer God.

Prince Moon 22:31

Amen. Amen. Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 22:34

All we have all we can do is ask Jesus.

Prince Moon 22:37

Amen.

James DeGraffenreid 22:38

Listen, it's like whenever God told Moses, have the people put the blood of over the doors.

Prince Moon 22:45

Yeah.

James DeGraffenreid 22:46

Anyone inside that door was saved. Amen. God passed over because he saw the blood, Brother Moon. It's the same way with us today. If God sees Christ Jesus' blood, brother, we're saved. We're saved, brother.

Prince Moon 23:02

Brother James, someone's discouraged thinking about leaving the church. Should they leave the church and give up on God? Do you think?

James DeGraffenreid 23:08

No, no, no. Don't let a man, don't let a man cause you to lose your faith in your Savior. You cling to the Lord Jesus with all your might, all your soul. Jesus said, Love the Lord your God with all your mind, all your body, all your soul, all your strength, all your might. Cling to Jesus. That's that's our hope. And Jesus talked about the Holy Spirit coming into our heart and being the strong man. Brother, when we have the Holy Spirit dwelling within, the devil, he can't get in it. And we have that's what we have to understand, brother Moon. We have to cling to the Lord.

Prince Moon 23:52

Yes.

James DeGraffenreid 23:53

Don't listen to the devil. You know, he's gonna tell you everything. The most the most uh sensitive, the most uh conscientious person is the one the devil tries to attack the most. You can't listen to him. Amen. We have to remember what Jesus said, what God promises, his promises are true. Uh brother, we have we who was it? What did Brother Warner say we could swing over hell? The Lord just holding on to our pinky finger, and we're we're not gonna have to worry, brother. God has us. Thank the Lord. God has us, brother.

Prince Moon 24:35

Thank the Lord, amen.

James DeGraffenreid 24:36

The Lord has us, brother. The devil can't have his way if we will cling to the Lord

Closing Blessing And Next Week

James DeGraffenreid 24:42

Jesus.

Prince Moon 24:42

I believe that. We've gone beyond time. We've got to say goodbye tonight. We'll come back next week with Brother James again. And thank you for timing in tonight. Brother James, thank you for coming again tonight. Uh, those of you listeners are viewers and listeners of the country, thank you so much. Fire Engineer, thank you so much. But friends, tonight is very special. You can hear it again on your YouTube, etc. Very special tonight. And if you were saved tonight, let us know. We want to be encouraged by what God is doing for you. So may the Lord bless you. Christ's name we do pray. Amen.