Coping With Burnout

What is it like to reach compassion fatigue and coping with it through addiction. Special guest Ashlea Dillard, retired Firefighter and now mental health counselor, as she discusses compassion fatigue and burnout with negative and faulty coping mechanisms. Her podcast is  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sit-around-the-fire/id1779172848

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:00

Time again for Doc Joc to Addiction Lifeguard Podcast. I am Dr. Dr. Burke, a psychologist, licensed professional counselor, and addiction specialist. If you are suffering from addiction, injury, trauma, whatever it is, I'm here to help. If you're in search of help, try to get your life back together. Join me here at Doc Joc to the Addiction Life Guard, the Addiction Recovery Podcast. I wanted to be real clear about what this podcast is intended for. It is intended for entertainment and informational purposes, but not considered help. If you actually need real help and you're in need of help, please seek that out. If you're in dire need of help, you can go to your nearest emergency room, or you can check into a rehab center or call a counselor like me and talk about your problems and work through them. But don't rely on a podcast to be that form of help. It's not. It's just a podcast. It's for entertainment and information only. So let's keep it in that light, alright? Have a good time, learn something, and then get the real help that you need from a professional. So today on the podcast, I have a guest. Her name is Ashley Dillard, and she's the host of Sit Around the Fire, which is a podcast that's available where, Ashley?

SPEAKER_00: 1:42

All places.

SPEAKER_03: 1:46

All of them. Okay. All of them. And she works, um, she she's also a private practice counselor, and she works with a variety of people, but I think her main focus is on first responders. So that'd be what firefighters, medics, police officers, people who see trauma really up close. They're the first ones. Um, so what we're gonna talk about is what happens when rescuers need to be rescued, um, and the impact of that exposure to trauma and then the direct trauma itself, and kind of what happens to people who are in those positions. And you, I guess you could apply this to people that are like emergency room personnel, doctors, nurses, um, anything like that, medics in the military, people who just really get hit with that heavy trauma. So that's what I wanted to talk about with Ashley today. So, welcome, Ashley.

SPEAKER_00: 2:43

Thank you. I'm so honored and excited to be here.

SPEAKER_03: 2:46

Yeah, this is this is awesome. So tell me a little bit about um your your background. Like how did you be how did you start? You were you were a firefighter and uh EMT or paramedic as well, or just a firefighter?

SPEAKER_00: 2:59

Uh paramedic too.

SPEAKER_03: 3:01

Paramedic too, okay. So you went from that and then now you're doing counseling and podcasting.

SPEAKER_00: 3:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 3:08

So how did that happen?

SPEAKER_00: 3:10

Yeah, so it's it has been a really incredible journey so far. So um, yeah, I worked on the ambulance and then also worked on the fire and did the paramedic thing on the fire department as well for just short of 10 years uh here in Colorado. So um it is so funny when you look back and reflect on it because when you're in it, when you're online and you're in the thick of it, you don't always see what's going on, and you don't always recognize a lot of these changes that start to happen within yourself.

SPEAKER_03: 3:49

Inside of you when you're getting exposed to the trauma, the stuff you're seeing.

SPEAKER_00: 3:55

Exactly. So, like what becomes normal is not really, I don't always like using the word normal, but is not normal anymore. But it feels so normal to us when we're when we're in it and we experience it. So um having gone through, I mean, can't even count how many dead people you see or stuff that you see. Um, but getting to a point where you realize like it's not really affecting you anymore, like it doesn't feel um you really don't feel anything. So you feel that numb kind of it's just another call, it's just another day, and or like in our nature of making jokes about things to to get through or to desensitize. So uh when I went to Fire Academy, I found that I was struggling quite a bit within some of the confined space training. So I would get into those the mazes or the situations and experience what a lot of people have heard of kind of the phobic wave, where your whole body just literally shuts down out of learning now as a protective mechanism for we're in what is perceived as a high threat, danger situation. We're literally shutting things off. Um, but when you're in the midst of training and trying to do something, you can't have that happen. Um and what I realized in the moment, I had some really wise mentors and people looking out for me who advocated that I needed to go get some extra help and to really dive into what was going on. So I went to some therapies, different modalities of it, but went to go see somebody who specifically did uh hypnosis and work through that modality specifically. But what we came across was my response in the mazes, that stress response that I was experiencing wasn't actually really related to going through the rat maze, as I call it. But it was actually because I had a close friend and a crew member who had committed suicide um about six months before I was in Fire Academy. And I the physiological response that I was having in the that maze was exactly what I was feeling in that moment when we got notified of what had happened. And so it is the whole journey of realizing that these things add up over time and that when we don't process things or we suppress things and push things down, like there is a a point to where it's too much. And so luckily, I was able to do a lot of work with that in the moment. And he, my therapist at the time, was the one who encouraged me about what do you want to do when you can't do this job anymore? Or what if you don't want to do this job anymore? And the cocky, like brand new firefighter in me said, What are you talking about? Like, I'm gonna do this career for 25 years and retire.

SPEAKER_03: 7:12

I'm gonna last forever.

SPEAKER_00: 7:14

Yeah, exactly. I don't need a backup plan. Um I got my cape, but exactly, yeah, I'm the hero. So, but that really resonated with me over time when I sat with it and thought about like actually, like, what is it that I would do? Like, what happens? Because we know that this career can be taken away in an instant if you get hurt or something happens. Um, and I didn't want to be in that spot. So I decided to go back to school while I was working and uh finished my undergrad and my master's degree in mental health and clinical counseling. And as I continued to move forward with that, it just became clearer and clearer for my own sake that um I needed to make some changes. So I was getting incredibly burned out on the job. Um, it is like it felt like I had been there for 20 years, but I had only been there for less than 10. And so the the burnout and the not wanting to be at work, not excited to run calls, um, and then coming home and hearing some things of like, like, why are you being so short with me, or why are you so irritated? Or why um like just it was just bizarre to see, as well as like, okay, why am why am I drinking so much alcohol? Why am I feeling like I can't ever get good rest? Or it just all these things started to click and make sense of I needed to make a change for myself. Um, either find a way to do the career in a healthy longevity type state, or I was gonna have to make a shift. So I decided to retire, realizing that as you know, that doing both of these jobs, being online and trying to do this was going to be the worst decision to me.

SPEAKER_03: 9:13

Yeah, you can't do that. No, you can't analyze what you're going through well and then go through it and then analyze it again.

SPEAKER_00: 9:20

No, no, absolutely not. So I sat with it, talked with a lot of people, and just decided now was the time. So I retired. And what several people I worked with used to say is like you're going to become a different kind of helper now. So it was letting letting go of being a paramedic, being a firefighter, and realizing like where I needed to serve differently. And um I had seen too many people who had chosen a different path that led to more suffering, or they got to the point where they did end up committing suicide because they just had nothing left. And I got like really tired of that narrative. So I I started the mission of ending the suffering and showing up for the people you mentioned, like the first responders, and how we don't ask for help until it's really, really bad, if we do ask for help at that point.

SPEAKER_03: 10:23

So well, that's the that's what happens in the process of being exposed to traumatic events is that um there's the compassion fatigue because you're being a first responder or somebody who is called upon to act in those situations, whatever it is. So they're you're you're showing compassion for the person, but you get to the point where there's compassion fatigue, and like you said, you the burnout of like you you start shutting it off. And that's what people do a lot of times. This happens in in families of addicts too. Um, like if children are growing up in an addict home, they're they're exposed to constant traumatic events going on and they learn to just shut down. Um, one of the things I noticed when I uh was was doing that kind of work, but then doing uh work as a as a counselor, I noticed that the people who tended to be first responders or emergency room doctors or nurses or uh PAs, people that that are in the front lines, they tended to come from chaotic, traumatic homes because they were very skilled at shutting it off. So they could they could operate like a robot. Uh, you know, oh, somebody's lost their leg, tourniquet, no problem, blood everywhere. They just they have no response at all emotionally. And then when it's over with, they go home, they're curled up on the floor in a fetal position because that's when the emotion then starts hitting them. But the compassion fatigue hits, and then that's when you realize that uh there's like I just don't have it in me anymore, and then you get emotional collapse, and that's that's exactly what you're describing. You get driven to the point where you just can't do it anymore. Um, but the the first part of what you said was really interesting. You said that you yourself didn't you you didn't notice that there was a change happening um in you, uh, but it's you're getting the feedback from other people, so that invisible burnout is what's what's going on, you know, because you're trying to adapt around it. And it's not I I don't want to I don't want to paint everybody who's a first responder with a huge broad brush because some people can handle more of that and they're fine until they get to a certain point, other people can handle very little of it, some people just seem to be able to just do it forever. Like they don't actually get burned out, they're just like that. And that's uh, you know, they so not everybody's the same, but I think pretty much if you go into it with the idea that you're helping others, that by by its description is compassion, right? And so it's easy to get to that compassion fatigue and then you start compensating. Um, what I say all the time to um people in my practice and on these podcasts um that you uh you know, isolation is addiction's best friend, and when you're going home and you have to isolate because you can't tell people all the horribleness that you're getting exposed to, you're just gonna isolate, and then that's where something happens, so you're uncomfortable, and that's we use because we're uncomfortable, and so the discomfort starts rising and rising. That's a problem. Um, so people who have careers that are working where there's a lot of adrenaline going on, there's an adrenaline dump. Um, you can get addicted to that. I don't know about you, but I noticed when I stopped doing the the the work that had a lot of adrenaline attached to it, I started ramping up the activities that had adrenaline attached to it. Motorcycles, uh fighting, competitive fighting, uh skateboarding. I mean, it was just like whatever I could get an adrenaline dump from. Did you have that same thing? Did you get that going on?

SPEAKER_00: 14:26

Oh, absolutely. I it's funny that you bring it up because I noticed that actually when I would get on a roller coaster. So when I was in the thick of working and in that time span, I would go jump on a roller coaster and I wouldn't feel anything. It was like, I can't like you remember what roller coasters used to be like and that like drop in your stomach, and this is so exciting, and it was just like very bland. And I thought, holy cow, like what has happened to me? Like, I and I see this all the time too with I mean co-workers from the past, but also people within my practice is like the threshold starts getting higher and higher. So now we're looking for more things to make that adrenaline dump happen. So now it's not just driving my motorcycle at 100 miles per hour. Now it's like maybe having a couple of drinks and then driving 100 miles per hour, or the you know, gambling gets out of control, or you know, alcohol is not working anymore. Now I need to try something a little bit different. And it's the the behaviors and the patterns just build upon themselves because the threshold gets so high, and you just realize like, whew, like uh it's way out of check. And I I think so much of that happens from the neuroplasticity and the neurotransmitter side as well, too, is those those it literally your brain gets rewired to a new kind of stimulus, absolutely does, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 16:01

And then the craving for the adrenaline, but you also end up with the dopamine hit because like this chaos feels normal, feels good, and then when you're not in chaos, you're not getting the dopamine hit. So then you're gonna like you said, like you're gonna you're gonna up the ante with whatever it is that's the the get you the adrenaline dump. The the the the non-first responder um people who have addiction issues, they're constantly chasing chaos. And uh first responders chase that action, right? Addicts will chase the chaos. And I would imagine if you're a first responder, you're gonna be you know, it's you chase them both. Um you know what, you know, I don't know if you have much experience with residential treatment programs, but when somebody comes into a residential treatment program and they're gonna stay there 30 days, 60, 90 days, they walk in. One of the things that happens in the first like three, four days is that person will come in and start creating chaos. You know, there's like 20 people already in the program. This guy comes in and he starts picking on people and he's creating drama and fight, and everybody knows, like, oh, he he just got here. He he'll calm down. It'll take up three or four days because there's not enough chaos. It's peaceful, it's quiet, everybody's gonna chill. Because they've been there for three weeks, you know, and here comes Johnny lately, and he's gonna create chaos. He needs that, he needs that adrenaline. Um but in the first responder world, yeah, it's it's just it's like firefighters. You're you're at you're in the firehouse, and then the bell rings and you don't know what in the world you're gonna re-run into. But it's bad, most likely, because that's why somebody called, right? Um so in the usage world, you get you know, you have a abstaining and then you get sobriety, but you have to have that emotional sobriety as well. And and that kind of happens at the same time. Um so all right. So that's w in in the world, in your world, we'll just call it your world, um everybody with the masks and the capes and they're flying around and they're saving people. Um you you mentioned that like first responder types and uh people in the in the front lines of stuff, they won't ask for help. Is that is that a pride thing, or is that a professional that's a weakness thing, or why why do they resist asking for help?

SPEAKER_00: 18:38

Yeah, that's such a good question. I've come to reflect on and realize that it's like actually a couple of different things. I think there is a huge element to the pride side, like there's still that admitting and accepting that I'm not okay or that there is something going along going on with you and that you're not functioning well, there's a lot of break breaking that apart and accepting it without or it just brings a lot of shame and guilt, really. If you when you admit to yourself and you start hearing the things that you actually believe of if there's something wrong with me or I'm broken, or like whatever the narrative is that's playing in your head, once you you have to be willing to accept that and not bring the shame and guilt along with it. And that requires a lot. That requires a lot for people to do to get to that point too.

SPEAKER_03: 19:37

So you're talking, you're talking about the emotional side, right? You're talking about like I'm emotionally, I'm I'm in the point of compassion, uh fatigue and and emotional collapse. So that pride and that you know, I it's a weakness thing. Is that because the the the first responder world predominantly started out as the boys' club? And so there's that branding to it.

SPEAKER_00: 20:01

I think so. And if you think back, even like you know, grandparents, great-grandparents coming home from war, World War II, you know, Vietnam War, like it's the same narrative that's playing over, is like you don't have time to talk about your problems or what's going on. You need to like show up, do your work, provide for your family. Like there's no space for the emotional side of it. And it's just a huge, it's I mean, it's getting better. The stigma for sure around that is getting better because there's such a push now with like not just settling for suffering, but it's still the same. A lot of it's the same. Like, you should I mean, I remember even being told going through you know, different trainings and stuff is like if you can't handle this, you're not gonna be able to make it and do this job. And so, like how twisted that narrative is on a human level of like, oh, you can't handle seeing somebody like completely uh decapitated on the side of the road, or you can't see see the worst of the worst. Like, if you can't handle that, you're not gonna be able to do the job. But thinking of how our brains are wired and our bodies function is like we're not really meant to see that anyways. And so that whole idea of if I if I say something, or if I go to get the help, there's something wrong with me, or I'm weak, or I am not gonna be able to do the job, or my crew is gonna see me as weak and not be able to do what I need to do is a huge hindrance, I think, for people just suffering and not getting the help that they need to.

SPEAKER_03: 21:45

Yeah, it's just like it's like you're expected to be a sociopath to be able to function, uh, because you just don't care about other people's feelings, and oh, that person's leg is missing, or oh look, they're eviscerated, and you know, or they burned to death, and you know, is there are we going for lunch after this, or you know, it's like you can't that's it? Yeah, it's really that's normal, yeah. Yeah, so uh and I I you know we in in when people get exposed to trauma um through their through their lives, whether they're a first responder or maybe their their families are just a big hot mess, and there's suicide and you know, cancer and all this stuff that that affects them negatively and makes them uncomfortable. And then that's why they start taking on chemicals to to cope with that as their primary coping mechanism. But the families of addicts, they're getting exposed to the trauma of watching their addict family member just disintegrate, and it destroys families. Um, but those families have to build those emotional firewalls, and if you can do it in a positive way, that's great, but a lot of times it's in a negative way too. Um, but you get the same silence, you know, either way. Um so vulnerability in the admission of this equals weakness. Um, so what what starts to break the silence? Is it uh peer support? Is it is it therapy? Is it hitting bottom? I mean, what what is the thing that starts to break that silence?

SPEAKER_00: 23:22

I think it's a little bit of all the things. Um I think for me it was sitting with like, am I gonna be if I continue on the path that I'm on, will I be okay like destroying my home life? Will I be okay destroying my relationship? Uh will I honestly like will I be okay destroying my body because my the physical symptoms of things showing up again, what we see is like kind of normal, like it isn't physiologically normal. Am I willing to sacrifice all those things to stay in silence, basically, or to keep suppressing things and to choose not to look at things and do things in a healthy way? Because there is a healthy way you can do the career or you can support, you know, somebody who's going through a struggle with addiction. You can do it, you just have to have the right tools and resources. So I think it's really an internal inquisition of asking yourself, like, am I sick enough of my suffering? Like, am I and and the cost of what that's gonna be on the other side? Is it worth it? Because you know just as well, like if the career is gone, like the the wheel moves on. So, like as soon as you leave, they're gonna put someone else in your seat. Or like that continues, like they have to have people doing the job. But like, if you walk away from the job, have you destroyed everything else in your life, your family? You like all the things in realizing this whole mentality around self-sacrifice isn't necessary, like it's it's a badge of honor we wear that's not really the right badge to be putting on. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:07

There's a um you know, in the 12 steps, I don't know how familiar you are with them, but that's you're describing step one, like my life's become unmanageable. And but but when you're in a position where managing your life is a rec is a requirement of your job, which for a lot of people is their sole identity, that's a tough call to make to know how to reach out for help or when to reach out for help. You know, I uh it's interesting. I've had firefighters in here, I've never had a police officer. I've never had a police officer. I'm around police officers a lot. I've never had a police officer. And I'm like, won't go to therapy, huh? You guys are just like the military guys, you don't like talking. Okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_01: 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 25:56

Um but you gotta you gotta find some way to some some place to go. Um and you know, the the the blue wall is one that is virtually impossible to cross, um, which is probably why I don't have police officers in here. They should come, but they won't come. Um, it's probably the ultimate in weakness. And and can you imagine you're sitting in a in an AA meeting and there's Officer Donaldson right there? Like, didn't he pull me over for speeding the other day? He's not gonna go to an AA meeting. So I, you know, that would that's not that's cut off. Same thing happens with doctors, medical doctors. They're not gonna come because they don't want to run into a patient, you know. That's I and they tell me that. Like, I can't I can't go to meetings. I can't I get it, I get it. But the real the realization that I can't do this anymore, like I gotta change. Um so um to get out of that fire, to get out of the the the fire is like what do you do to get out of the fire? And you know, it may cost you something, but you know what? Listen, recovery, there's always a consequence, you know. There's it's the very nature of recovery is I'm about to lose the thing I didn't want to lose, or I've already lost it. That's the point where people get into recovery, unfortunately. Um some people are willing to lose a lot before they get there, but um so um when that moment finally comes, do you think to in today's world it's it's easier to get access to help than it used to be 20 years ago, 30 years ago?

SPEAKER_00: 27:46

Yes and no. I think that there are a lot more ample resources out, and there's a lot of avenues, even just the podcasting side of things for people to at least start to hear something different, a different narrative around getting help, is is a start. And I think I really truly believe like all you need is a willingness, like that's all you need, and like you can make massive shifts and changes, but you just have to be willing to show up, really. Um but what I really like, and I think the movement is heading that way, is the the old method of tradition, what we call traditional therapy, is changing, and like there's so many new progressive uh ways of doing the work, like that is opening up the door to some of these folks that still have that strong resistance towards therapy. Or I hear it all the time, like people are like, Yeah, I went to therapy when my parents got divorced and I hated it.

SPEAKER_03: 28:48

Yeah, when I was 15.

SPEAKER_00: 28:51

Why you never went back to therapy again.

SPEAKER_03: 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:54

Um, but realizing that it's not all necessarily like what you think it is, and realizing that there's so much more to it than using it just when you're in the pits, is it can be used for incredible personal growth and transformation. And so I really love the movement that's happening where there's just so many different modalities for people to tap into. And I always try to compare it to people of if we're fixing a picture uh element on your car, your engine is not functioning, is knowing that we can't just come in with a wrench and expect to fix the problem. It's like we have to use a multitude of tools and be willing and open to exploring different things that as we're working on. So just like individual therapy and work is important, same with group work, like you talk about, or maybe it's doing you know, equine therapy or uh hot and cold therapy, like there's so many different things, but you have to come at it all at all different ways, and I think that's what's really Going to make the big shift for people is the traditional methods aren't the only way of doing the work.

SPEAKER_03: 30:07

Yep. Laying on the couch, listening to the Freudian therapist uh, you know, ask you a question and let you talk for an hour. Um yeah, there's other things, EMDR, hypnotherapy, uh trauma, yoga therapy. I mean, there just you name it, man. That that Bessel Vanderkohlk's book, uh, The Body Keeps the Score, is an awesome resource for an understanding of like all the different things that you can do and the effect of those things. Um how many how many uh of your clients that you see are first responders in your in your practice? What would you say? Like what percent?

SPEAKER_00: 30:45

I'd say probably like 95% are first responders military or spouses of a first responder or military member.

SPEAKER_03: 30:54

So it's do they come to you because you get it?

SPEAKER_00: 31:00

I think that's a huge piece of it, is like knowing for one, I don't present myself as a traditional counselor. So I tell people that right off the bat is I don't work in traditional methods and I don't really like traditional counseling. So, but the being able to relate to I know what it feels like, I know what I can relate to how that feels to you, I know the culture, like at least on some level. I've never been a cop, obviously, but like I can understand it's a very similar type experience. Um but also I think like the biggest way people come to me is because someone else comes and then they tell their friend. So they start to see a shift in somebody they work with and then get curious and ask, like, hey, what are you different? Or or the person who's done the work on themselves starts to recognize, hey, I see your suffering, like how can I show up for you? And so it's just become a very cool network and a community where that's always been my dream and passion is that people heal and then they go out and help other people heal. So it becomes a movement, more or less, um, in that way.

SPEAKER_03: 32:16

So, all right, so let me ask you a couple of questions then um around that. So, how how do let's that's the first responders, but let me ask you a question about the families of first responders, the people that are watching this person, as you said in your words, transforming and changing and not realizing that they're changing, right? And then you start getting peppered with those questions like, what's wrong? Are you okay? And I'm fine, I'm fine. Well, you don't seem fine, and you're like doing all kinds of weird uh faulty coping mechanism techniques to deal with your own stuff. But the family members, so how do families of first responders stay healthy? What should they do or what can they do when they're watching this person who's changing because of their job?

SPEAKER_00: 33:02

I'm so glad that you brought this up because this has been like such a big passion of mine moving forward, because the what I see a lot in terms of especially particularly spouses, is they feel this almost a secondary need to the self-sacrifice. Then the I think this is relative to for people going through addiction as well, is you feel like your problems or what you're going through is minimalized, or you have to minimize it because the focus needs to be on the other person, they need to get into their sessions, they need to go do this therapy, but you don't realize, like you mentioned, that secondary shock wave or that secondary trauma that they feel as well is you both people, whether it's two spouses or partners or even the family, is like everybody needs to be doing the work at the same time. Like everybody needs to put their focus and be willing to say, like, I'm worthy of going to get support that I need to, because going, I mean, just if you broke it down even on the fireside, is like out here, most of us work uh 48, 96 schedules, so we're on shift for two days off or four. It's like, what does it feel like for the person at home to be a single parent for 48 hours? And you can't tell me that that doesn't like cause some kind of stress within your life, or that's really hard, or being gone on holidays, or if you're you know, someone who's helping someone through an addiction, like the a mental and the emotional requirement for that, like you can't tell me that doesn't cause stress within you. Yeah, because you have to be able to say, like, I value myself, I'm important enough, I am gonna advocate for myself to go get support as well. And the healing really needs to happen. I really think like side by side, not I'm not saying necessarily like couples therapy for everybody, no, but each person in the involved in the universe that they're in.

SPEAKER_03: 35:14

But in in the recovery community, um, we have a lot of sayings, and one of them is individuals don't get sober, groups do. And you could translate that to families do. So I'm always demanding that the the husband, wife, brother, sister, mother, father of the person that's being affected by this coping mechanism of the addiction, that they've got to be recovering from that addiction, as well as the addict has to be recovering from the addiction. So they have to go to group. It's you know what's really funny is there's so much resistance to that. I this happens all the time. Like, but it's not my problem. They're the ones that had the issue, and it's like, yes, but you're you know, you're running around trying to fix their problem. You didn't start out your relationship like that. Do you realize you're in that position? And they can't see it because they're just so blinded by this other person who they love, is in this crazy situation, and that's their focus, they just forget about themselves, and um, so it's yeah, that's a good and and with first responders, same thing, except you're seeing the destruction going on um from that distance. So um, yeah, you can't you can't heal yourself, and if you're not if you just like doctors, doctors can't be performing surgery on their own child because your objectivity is gone, and so you can't you can't do that as a family member, you can't heal yourself, and if you're not trained, you can't heal the other person, and even if you were trained, you can't heal the other person because they're related to you, and yeah, like I can't see my wife as a client. I don't understand why a family member thinks that they can be the social worker and the the case manager for their loved one who's has a problem, it's it's insane. Um, yeah, but those are the roles we fall into.

SPEAKER_00: 37:08

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I have a funny story on that one. So I had a somebody coming in for a series of treatment, and his wife dropped him off. And when she dropped him off and came in, I kind of had this feeling of like, uh oh, like I need to prepare for what's about to come. But she uh lit both of us up. Like, I don't understand why he needs to be here. I don't understand how like it's that bad. Like it just was like, whoa, and wow, full denial. It was a full on. And I was like, I just let her like have her space for a second, and I said, like, I would really love it if you you would find an avenue for you to go get some support through this as well, too, because we just don't we're so focused on the other person, we don't often see like what's going on, and everybody's a mirror, everybody's a teacher. I say that all the time in relationship work is like your partner is gonna trigger something in you that is showing you a growth point, and so whatever that is, pay attention to it in you, but like you've got to go do the work too, because as this person's transforming and changing, like you've got to figure out how to transform and change and do the work at the same time so that you guys can get to know who each other are in this new season of life, who this person is now in the here and now, not who they were, you know, in the thick of dealing with work as a first responder or in the thick of their addiction, or all of that is like you really have to like be willing to invest in the process alongside whoever you're supporting, and it's just it just it should be a non-negotiable, really.

SPEAKER_03: 38:58

It it yeah, exactly. Um it's it's loving the person unconditionally, but not performing a rescue yourself. So love without the rescue. And if you understand that you're in a chaotic situation, it's not just them that's living in the chaotic situation, it's both of you if it's if it's a you know a partner thing. Um wow. So I you know, you good for you that you made the career change, but I'm gonna give you a cautionary tale here because you jumped from one type of rescue to another type of rescue. So you have to pay attention yourself um to what's going on and find your you know, you're recovering your outlets and everything, and you're nodding your head, so you agree. So just keep an eye on that, all right, Ashley.

SPEAKER_00: 39:44

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 39:46

But I love what you're doing, I think it's awesome. Uh, I think uh anybody who you know, like we I I was asking you before the podcast about is your state part of the interstate compact. Um and that's for those of you who are listening, don't know, in the United States, uh you can't you can't practice across state lines. So like and and wherever the the uh therapy is happening is where the person who is receiving it lives, not the therapist. Um so you if you if you want some coaching from Ashley, you can get coaching.

SPEAKER_02: 40:27

Yeah, not therapy. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 40:30

But you know, for people who um make the jump from one career and then they go and and and therapy in particular to help others in that former career that you had, that's awesome because it gives you that perspective. So I wish you all the luck in the world um in and continuing to help people. But man, if you are a first responder out there and you're looking for help, let me ask you, Ashley, if if somebody was listening to this and they are a first responder and they're and they're having these struggles with dealing with their trauma, what would you tell them to do? Like, where do they go? Where do they start?

SPEAKER_00: 41:09

Yeah, I would say time is of the essence. So like don't don't wait. I said there's an urgency to doing the work. Um and I would say you could start. There's so many different places you could start. If your department has a peer support team, that's a good place to start. Um however, you can always just go again back to the podcast thing is start looking and listening to other people who are out there doing the work. Um, there's so many different avenues now that you can check out. There's tons of grants and funding out there too that's helping kind of facilitate some of the work that way. I'm always happy. You can always reach out to me and I can help connect you with somebody if you're looking for something specific. But just start asking like for one. And you don't have to ask through work. If if that's a concern, you can go outside of work.

SPEAKER_03: 42:10

You know what I tell my listeners? Listen, the COVID virus shutdown for me had one positive, and that is it taught people that they can use the internet and it forced, particularly in the recovery community, A A N A, M A, all the A's to go online, and they still are out there. So if you are afraid of like getting caught, I tell people then be be a uh be a meeting tourist, go to a meeting in England, go to a meeting in New Zealand or Australia, or or I tell them to stay away from Scotland because the accent is like impossible to understand. I've tried that a couple of times, and it's like half the people in it you can't understand. But go to another state, like just go to an online meeting. And um you you can you can do that and still get something from it. I like the in-person part. You can do the same thing with therapy, you know. Nobody has to know that you're doing it, you could just do it from the privacy of your home on a phone, you know. Um the the one thing you do that that I caution people is that you understand that you're gonna probably go through two, three, four, five, six therapists before you find one that you actually connect with, and that's fine. It's not I'm not disparaging my colleagues, um, but it's you got to have a connection, right?

SPEAKER_01: 43:34

So find one that works for you.

SPEAKER_03: 43:36

So go do the online thing and and find somebody. So you can be a uh an AA, you know, the the 12-step tourist and and go around and find one. You can find therapists that way. Um, there's really not an excuse for not doing it, other than pride and humility, right? But healing, healing is not about being invincible, it's about being honest. And you know, I I need I need help. I don't want it, but I need it. So be honest, and that will get you the healing. Um but the other thing is, you know, as a first responder, and this this was my the number one lifeguard rule that I used to teach when I was teaching people to be a lifeguard, is don't become a victim while you're trying to do a rescue. Because now now they're gonna now the next person that comes along who's a rescuer, he's gonna have to rescue two people. And he's not rescuing you first because you're the idiot who jumped in when you shouldn't have, he's gonna go for the original victim. But don't become a victim in the process of rescuing somebody, you know. If you're not equipped or you you got some issues, man, get some help before you start doing it. Um so yeah, all right, good advice. Yeah, good advice. Um, you don't have to do a career change to get to get out of it, you know. But hey, no, you know, um, you can do something to handle it anyway. Well, I really like your work. Um give us give us the plug. So your podcast is what?

SPEAKER_00: 45:16

Oh, yes. So thank you. My podcast is sit around the fire. So, like you uh a mixture between like having guests come on and share their stories or talk about a lot of their journeys, um, as well as education side or just talking about different modalities or work that you can do or things to think about and focus on. It's really the concept of like if we were all sitting around the campfire, what would we be talking about? And it's a lot of sharing stories, sharing advice, like words of wisdom, things like that. So that is the podcast. And yes, available on all the platforms, you can check it out and listen to it as well.

SPEAKER_03: 45:56

And how would somebody get a hold of you if they wanted to reach out directly to you?

SPEAKER_00: 45:59

Yes. So you can go to the website right now. We're getting ready to make a big shift in it, but currently you can go now to www.sitaroundthefire.org. Dot org.org. Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 46:14

Not calm org.

SPEAKER_00: 46:16

I don't actually know what the dot com one takes you to, so that would be an interesting.

SPEAKER_03: 46:21

I I don't think it's you.

SPEAKER_00: 46:23

No, it's not me.

SPEAKER_03: 46:25

So sit around the fire.org, and there's a contact button on there somewhere to reach out to you.

SPEAKER_00: 46:32

Yes, yeah, yeah, there's a contact, and then you can uh we're on the socials as well. It's Instagram, sit around the fire.co, and we're on Facebook, and you there's links to all that through the website or the podcast, so you can get to it many different places.

SPEAKER_03: 46:51

I've I heard quite a few of your podcasts, they're good, they're entertaining. I like listening to them. It was kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00: 46:56

Um, yeah, they're fun.

SPEAKER_03: 46:58

Yeah. So all right. Well, you know what, Ashley, I really appreciate coming on and being a guest. And um maybe we'll have to sit down by the fire and do this again, but it's got to be at the ocean by the waves because I'm the lifeguard.

SPEAKER_00: 47:11

Oh, yeah. That would be awesome. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah, well, thank you so much. Yeah, and uh yeah, really impactful work that you're doing as well, too. So it's cool to be able to celebrate and support each other.

SPEAKER_03: 47:24

So yeah, cool. All right. Well, thanks again.

SPEAKER_00: 47:27

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_03: 47:29

Well, I hope you enjoyed that podcast. I want to thank Ashley Diller for coming on. And uh hey, if you're in need of help, reach out to Doc Jock, your addiction lifeguard. I can be reached at my website, Wellspringmindbody.com. If you like the show, please subscribe and like it. Tell your friends because uh always like what's good. And if you're getting something from it, please listen. But if you need further help, you know, go on. Go to the rehab, get some help, help some accounts for it, go to the media, get some help. I mean, it's crazy to kind of make you addicted by any life. That's insane. Don't do that, go get the help. It's out there for you, no matter where you are. But until the next time, when you're tuning in to another one of my podcasts, this is Doc Jock, your addiction lifeguard saying see ya.