The God Molecule with Stephan Kerby

Fifteen minutes can be enough to shake your sense of self and that is exactly why people are paying attention to 5-MeO-DMT. I’m joined by Stephan Kirby, co-founder of the Mindscape Psychedelic Institute, to unpack what this psychedelic actually is, why many people call it Bufo, and why the ethical conversation matters just as much as the mystical one.

We talk about the “god molecule” effect people report at a full-release dose: ego dissolution, a sudden drop-out of identity and story, and a return that can feel like waking up with fresh space around old habits. Stephan shares why the experience is often described as less visual than traditional DMT and more like pure consciousness, and how that can shift depression, anxiety, trauma patterns, and fear of death. We also explore why some people compare it to near-death experiences, and what it means to come back holding life a little more lightly.

Safety is the thread running through everything. We get into trauma-informed psychedelic facilitation, proper screening, informed consent, medication considerations, and why a person should never be left unsupported when they are not aware of their surroundings. Stephan also explains why integration is the real work: bringing the insight into daily life through presence, breathwork, and practices that help the nervous system regulate, rather than chasing repeated peak experiences.

If you’re curious about psychedelic therapy, nervous system reset, somatic release, and the move from underground use towards research and clinical access, this conversation will give you a grounded place to start. Subscribe, share the podcast with someone who’s curious, and leave a review with the question you want us to explore next.

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My new novel The Red Magus has recently been published in conjunction with the Unbound Press.  An entralling mystical adventure set across time and space, where past and current lives converge.  Find it on Amazon and Barnes & Noble.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

So, welcome everybody to another edition of Balm to the Soul. I'm your host, Natasha Joy Price, and I'm an energy therapist, an author, and of course a podcaster. And today we have a new guest, and his name is Stefan Kirby, and he's co-founder of the Mindscape Psychedelic Institute. So, welcome, Stefan. Thank you so much for supporting the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

I appreciate you having me. I'm I'm I I watched a couple episodes and reviewed a lot of what you have out there. So I I I've got some questions for you too, but uh yeah, I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Well, I have lots of questions for you because this is not something that I really know a lot about. But you are the leading educator in trauma-informed 5MEO DMT facilitation. So tell me, what is 5MEO DMT?

SPEAKER_02 1:00

It's a good good question. I think a lot of listeners may have heard it referred to as Bufo, um, as it comes from the Sonoran Desert Toad, or that's with some of its original uh you know usage. Um, but now what you're looking for in that secretion from the toad, the actual psychedelic molecule is five MeO, you know, five methoxy and endimethyltryptylene. Um, that's the actual psychedelic aspect of it. Um, and it's as we were talking right before we launched here, it's there's absolutely been a resurgence in you know curiosity and uh usage in the last few years. I think uh Mike Tyson was a big one. Um if you're familiar with him, he he spoke on several podcasts, and then recently Brian Johnson, the uh the longevity expert, did a live session with it and recorded his brain scans, and it's kind of kept the kept the ball rolling.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Right. So it's it's it's secreted by the glands of this toad. But is that the only place you can get it?

SPEAKER_02 2:05

No, no, no, no. No, that's a great question. Yeah, I just want to clarify. Yeah. Um I just mentioned that because a lot of folks when they hear 5MEO, they don't necessarily understand what it means, or they think 5MEO DMT and compare it to what I would call traditional uh DMT, which uh folks like Terrence McKenna has popularized, which is significantly more of a visual uh experience, the machine elves and and a lot of the things that people in the psychedelic community are familiar

Welcome And What Is 5-MeO-DMT

SPEAKER_02 2:30

with. But yeah, they've created a a pure molecule or synthetic version of it, which is just pure 5MEO DMT, because that's the actual uh tryptamine that's creating the experience.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Right. So you can get a synthetic, because I was a bit worried about the toad, to be honest. I thought if this is a re-surgence, we're gonna run out of the poor toads. But you can it you can't it you can make it in the lab if you like.

SPEAKER_02 2:55

Absolutely, and I I highly recommend that. Um, you know, for you know, the last 40 years. I mean, it's a pretty new molecule as far as the current usage of it. There's some debate over its lineage, um, because it is found in some plants, um, but not to the concentration that we get from either the snoring desert toad or obviously the pure molecule. But no, I'm I'm in agreement. I I I get a little pushback because one of the things I spend a lot of time doing is is uh trying to shift people away from kind of the the the old school format of using the secretion because it is a finite resource. I mean, these these toads hibernate for eight months of the year, um, and it's in a very small geographic location, there's just not enough. And I think we all know when you know something becomes a commodity, what humans tend to do with it, um, and there's just no experiential difference. There's no, you know, that's a whole nother conversation. But I've had the debate number of times. There's no reason to be still using that that secretion.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

Yeah. So um what does it do? What what what how can we use it therapeutically? What um for the listeners and for me, how does it help us?

SPEAKER_02 4:08

Yeah, that's a a really good question. Yeah, it's um, you know, traditional DMT got the nickname uh the spirit molecule sometime back, and this one, the nickname for it is the god molecule. It it um to me, obviously, depending on dosage, you know, most of the conversations are about what what I would call a full release dose, um, which is in the higher dose range. And that to me elicits what, you know, to me, experiential felt like a like a pseudo-near-death experience. But, you know, the way I like to describe it is, you know, it's this sudden release of every contraction that you've ever been holding, right? All you know, mental, emotional, and identity filters that normally shape your experience. Like who do you think that you are, right? Like all the aspects that we identify with is who we think that we are, and what remains, you know, for some people could feel overwhelming, um, but also extremely expansive. So I think, you know, for a lot of people, I would consider it the most energetic experience a human could have, um, you know, in the sense of, again, all these layers of your identity are momentarily completely obliterated for lack of a better term. Um, and then as the medicine starts wearing off slowly and surely, like these little pieces of your ego, the programming, whatever term you want to use, start coming back into play. And there's just a little bit of space, a little bit of more conscious awareness, or actually quite a bit of conscious awareness, and you're noticing these aspects of yourself. Oh, this is why I say these things. Oh, this is why I dress this way. Oh, this is why I think these thoughts. And I think from you know, a therapeutic lens, I think a lot of folks' suffering is tied to identity, right? Who they think that they are. Um, and so it gives you this glimpse of yes, you are those things, but you're also more than all of that. Because, you know, perfect example, you're in London. Like if you grew up in Japan, you would be a completely different Natasha. And that means that you are a conglomeration of all your thoughts, emotions, and experiences up to this point to

Ego Dissolution And Pure Awareness

SPEAKER_02 6:24

create who you think that you are. But if you grew up in a different, you know, space, different culture, you would be a different version. That means all that's been created to some degree through experience. But once you recognize that, then you can determine, okay, how would I like to experience myself differently moving forward? And for many people, that's a very difficult spot to get to without a little bit of help.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Gosh, I've got so many questions after that. So, really, really, you strip away, like you say, all the filters. So, what you experience is like your real sort of energy, your real sort of essence in a way.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah, depending on the term, right? Like energy has a, you know, I think people use it in a multitude of ways. To me, just my experience, and again, this is a beliefs, and we all kind of carry beliefs into our worldview. Um, my experience was being one of pure consciousness. Like, oh, I am everything, and I'm showing up in this this character of Kirby, this human form and experiencing reality through this, but that's just the outer layer. It's like I am consciousness underneath all of that, an awareness. Like, what's be like again? If you closed your eyes and count to five, and if folks at home are could do that, it's like you're counting to five in your head. Like, who who's hearing that counting? Something's aware of your thoughts, emotions, and feeling. What's behind all of that? And to me, that is the awareness that we all are. Um, so it gives you access to that, this recognition of, oh, I'm more than I thought I was.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

And you mentioned um near-death experiences, and often they're very similar. So is what people experience very similar? Or do does everybody have different come back with different visuals, different?

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, it's a it's a very tricky one to describe because I do have a friend that had a a true near-death experience, and it's a topic I'm extremely fascinated by. Um, and I think one of the you know differences with a lot of the near-death stories that you hear, there's this kind of revisiting all these life um, you know, incidences or experiences. For me, it was this just complete dissolving to everything, right? And and and and feeling as I'm dissolved into everything, just this pure unconditional love, this non-judgment, this pure peace. And I remember coming back from that thinking, oh, if if that's death, I'm okay with it. Um, and many, many people report a very similar experience, and that's why I think this is a powerful tool for people that are nearing death. Um, or you know, I've I've worked with families of you know of folks that are potentially dying so they can get a glimpse of this is potentially again. I can't say that's what's happening after death, but my belief is absolutely that is what death is like, and if that's what it is, okay. I'm okay with that.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

Yeah. Okay. So um I I know also it's used um for some mental health issues as well, isn't it? That people like depression and so uh people have found relief and answers and maybe a different perspective on life, perhaps.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

Yeah, I think it it works in a couple different ways. Um, and that's why I'm I'm hoping the resurgence again continues to lead to more and more research behind it. But also, I mean, this is probably a a good podcast to say it. It's like, sure, there's some science behind a lot of this, but there's also a lot of mystery and magic, right? Um, we don't know everything, and I don't think science yet explains everything. So that's why I'm fascinated with it as a medicine. Um, but I think the first phase in in in benefit or healing for folks, if that's the term, is it's the first time the brain is completely shut offline, right? In a full experience, this full non-dual experience or this full uh release experience, you're completely unaware of your environment. So the brain is completely, well, not the entire brain, but obviously the aspects of ourselves that are cognitive of what's happening around us. And that to me allows the body to finally start again. That's why I consider it an energetic experience. I mean, if you watch uh a video of a lion chasing a gazelle, when the gazelle gets to freedom, it will lay down in the grass and start vibrating and it's shaking out that old adrenaline, right? And moving back to again what we call homeostasis. And I, you know, when was the last time you were driving through London and somebody cut you off and maybe gave you a bad gesture that you pulled over, right, with all the frustration and just shook it off, right? So as humans, we have a tendency just to keep shoving it down, shoving it down.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

So there's this huge energetic release where finally the body's like, and you could literally see the people vibrating and shaking, and it shows up in a number of different philosophic physical manifestations. So that in itself to me is this huge somatic release that again would be difficult to achieve with all of the thinking monkey mind uh kind of in the background. And then the other aspect again is how much of our suffering is tied to our story, right? How much is tied to our story of again who we think we are? You know, I say people live in this multiverse in the sense of they wish they can go back and make all these different choices. And if that choice happened, I would be here, but that's not the reality we live in. We're in this moment

Somatic Release And Mental Health Shifts

SPEAKER_02 12:08

and we're moving forward. So what do we do with that? And so it gives you this huge perspective on recognizing again that all that was to some degree programming, right? All of my anxiety and depression were created through these events or these experiences. What do I do now moving forward? Now that I know that's a program, I could reprogram myself, so to speak, you know, teach myself to respond to reality versus reacting to reality. There's this hope and and and this potential shift of okay, I can start doing this moving forward and create a new version of myself. And that was the case for me and so many other folks.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Yeah, fascinating. It's almost like you reboot the system in some way.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

So what's exactly the term a lot of folks use is like a defragmentation and a reboot.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah. Um, so what do what are the what's going forward and after more research, do you think that it has a lot of um it will have a lot of use medically as well for various ailments?

SPEAKER_02 13:16

As as far as injuries or uh therapeutic?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Well, I sort of believe that a lot of um illnesses that develop have actually emotions behind them, you know, stuck behind them. And I'm thinking, you know, if people have that reboot, could could it shift uh their perspective on that, release that, help, you know, with the symptoms then disappearing? I don't know. Just smutter.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

It's it's it's a great question, right? I think um, and again, you know, I'd be curious your perspective on it. I think all of our thoughts, emotions, and feelings have an energetic resonance to it, right? Um, and we are just carrying this. And um, when you get an opportunity again to release this, and again, this isn't woo-ee, you know, science fiction. We we're literally witnessing this happen to folks. And again, we can describe it as nerve, you know, nervous system reset, whatever terms you want to use, but to me, it is this energetic reset. Um, that you could see that a lot of the pain and suffering and injury, as you're mentioning, um, is held in that. It's held in the body, it's held in the tension. And, you know, a lot of folks come out of this experience, like, gosh, I feel lighter, right? Just in general. It's like, yes, all the or my where my back was always hurt now feels flexible and comfortable again, you know. And and again, that was that was an example of myself. So absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

And presumably, this is really well monitored when people take this. That you know, they have people around them. Did people ever have a bad experience?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Yeah, it should be monitored. Uh, and again, that's why I appreciate you having me. One of the things I'm trying to do is advocate for safety, like all psychedelics, at least here in the States, it's still a little bit of the Wild West, as you could imagine, because it's still mostly underground practitioners, which is why I spend most of my time training them. Um, so yes, you should always have somebody around you. I mean, in a full release dose, again, you're completely unaware of your surroundings and environment. You could absolutely hurt yourself. Some people have very physical experiences. Um, there's the potential to you know throw up and not be able to release that and and choke on it and die and and to scare people, that's rare, but it's absolutely a potential. Um uh so absolutely you need to do it with somebody. Um, and then you know, as regards to safety, I mean again, since you are offline, I always recommend if, especially if you're a female, um, you know, bring a friend with you, bring a witness with you, make sure that you're going to be safe in that space. Because unfortunately, like all spaces, there's this predatorial environment that you just want to protect yourself from. So you should spend some time really screening who you're considering sitting with.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Yeah. And you've um you've written, haven't you, with your wife, um, a manual about um, presumably uh the framework that this should be done in.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah, a trauma-informed entheogenic um guidebook for five MEO. Yeah, it um it's what we use as a textbook in our class. And again, it's trying to shift this practice from just pure underground, um, which again I respect. I was an underground practitioner for for quite some time. But again, trying to create like a more trauma-informed framework around it.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

And, you know, trying to blend my wife's a therapist, I'm in my internship for therapy. So trying to blend the best of both of these worlds, right? We don't want it overly clinical, but we also don't want it uh, you know, unsafe in the other areas. So, how do you really blend those two together? And I think that's that's what we're hoping to create and continue to create.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Okay, so um, are there risks in doing this?

Safety Risks Screening And Consent

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah, absolutely. And and I apologize, you asked it earlier. Do people have bad experiences? Yeah, it's when you take, you know, my wife's a great example, and I'm allowed to share her story. So she came from a uh, you know, a Christian background, she was a youth pastor, all those things. And then when you have this full non-dual experience that again, you feel completely connected with consciousness, source, God, whatever term you feel right using, you know, for her specifically, it just questioned this entire worldview, right? Everything that she thought about what creation was in 15 minutes got shifted. And so that could leave people destabilized, trying to figure out well, who am I now? Now that I see that all of this is an identity that's been created regardless of what your belief system is, um, you know, what am I now? It's like, well, your your consciousness, your source. Now you get to kind of determine how do you want to continue to show up. Um, so some people could be deeply destabilized by it. Um, it's rare, but maybe you know, we see different statistics out there. But let's say six to eight percent could have a deeply destabilizing experience because it's too much too fast. And that's why what we kind of advocate for is moving slow. I believe in working with smaller doses, allowing your nervous system to adapt and to adjust to the medicine, create a relationship even with it, if that's the term you want to use. Um, and that allows you again to nitrate up. I mean, no different than if you went to a doctor for pressure medicine. They don't start you on the largest dose, right? We're trying to find the minimum effective dose that's going to be beneficial to you. And that's what I recommend in this space. But unfortunately, that's not the predominant way of facilitating it currently.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

And does it have physical um risks as well? Is it anything that it it affects? I mean, I suppose it depends on the person, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 19:11

But yeah, but it's it's really rare. It's actually a very safe medicine if you've been brought to it safely. Um, you know, and and again, that's why one of the things that I'm a huge advocate for is really proper in-depth screening, right? If somebody just shows up to have an experience, then there's some physical risks, right? It's gonna be elevated blood pressure, elevated heart rate. So if they're not uh able to withstand that, that's gonna have some ramifications. Um, if there's certain medications, especially in the SSRI category or anything that's actually impacting the serotonin system, could be a concern. So you really want to make sure that you go through, you know, a really good screening protocol, as well as a psychological, you know, screening to make sure that you have the resources. If you do have a more destabilizing experience, you know, what are the resources that you have to kind of help you integrate that piece? And and that's the key word is integrate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah. And speak you have someone to talk about it, presumably. So, um, so from what you were saying, if you build up the dose, you're having repeated sessions. Do they actually do you sort of have the same experience or do they build build on themselves, if that makes sense? Do you get more and more understanding as you the more times that you do it?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

It depends on again on the integration. I'm I I use myself as a bad example that um you know early on I was doing it probably more often than I should have, because I thought the understanding was in the experience, right? But the the understanding is you know, embodying the experience, right? Like an example I use is you meditate to learn to be more mindful, right? But it's actually being mindful, which is the goal. So very very similar that you could have this expansive experience. And again, it was my third experience that it I remember doing it and going, Oh, temporarily at least, that's what the monks go to monasteries for 30 years to kind of achieve. It's like this temporary enlightenment because the ego is completely dissolved and offline. I'm like, okay, how do we do that without the medicine? And my initial theory was like, well, you do the medicine, you keep doing medicine until that happens. Um, and then it was later down the road that I'm like, no, this isn't, that's not the right course of action. It's integrating this to the point where it's embodied. And I think that's the loop or trap that a lot of people get caught in, especially with this medicine. But I think psychedelics in general is they get this intellectual understanding of something. I'm connected to nature. I'm I'm an energetic being being, whatever it may be. It's an intellectual understanding. It's like, well, how does that show up on a Tuesday? How does that show up around your family or at work? Right. Like how do I embody that? So now I'm living from that experience versus just more information in my brain.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yeah. So how do you embody it for people? How do you to how does that work after the session?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Yeah, there's lots of different ways, but to me, it's it's it's a repetition game, like anything, right? Like I'm I'm 52. Um, you know, so that means I've got 52 years of programming, right? So it's it's it's it's this new game. But I I think what happens again, if if if you walk them into the space correctly and start working

Dose Strategy And Real Integration

SPEAKER_02 22:38

with integration before they even have the experience, what I'm trying to do is help them tap into that awareness that we talked about. What's behind all the thoughts, right? What's behind, can I notice my emotions without falling into them? Great, let's let's start there. Then they have this expansive experience, even on smaller to medium doses. They start really being able to find that awareness easier and easier. Great. Now, what do we do, right? Is it um doing you know breath work practices? Is it uh doing meditation with a very specific cause? Is it, you know, um ecstatic dance for some people? There's lots of other ways, but to me, it's to tap into that mindfulness, that tap into that awareness as often as possible. Little simple things like, you know, when was the last time? I just mentioned this to a client this morning. When was the last time you had a meal and you actually sat down and tasted the meal? Right? Most of us are eating, thoughts are running through our mind, what we need to do later, what happened earlier in the day. It's like, can you just be present, just here, right now, just for this one moment, now this moment, now this moment. So it gives you this opportunity to really hone that skill, which it is just a skill of being aware, being present, and then we again to notice these emotions. So you're able to irregulate yourself significantly better. Um, so we've got weekly practice that we do with people as they continue to have um medicine experiences.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Yeah. Interesting. So um I was talking to somebody about psychedelics, and they were saying that somebody is more likely to have a more upsetting experience or something that they can't cope with if they haven't done any energetic work or they haven't worked on themselves or so. That's the first part of the question. So if somebody has done a lot of work, and like for myself, I'm a past-life regression therapist, so I sort of believe you can go all over um sort of your soul's path, and you can check in. And will my experience be different than somebody who's done nothing on themselves? That's what I'm trying to say there.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Yeah, it this is a this is the first time somebody's asked me this question, and this is a great question, actually. Um what's interesting, I'd say with your classical psychedelics, absolutely, right? I worked uh with psilocybin in ayahuasca for years, and how people are because with those experiences, you're present, right? So you're still somewhat aware information is coming in, and that information is being interpreted. Well, what's interpreting it? All of our experiences. So, you know, somebody's having a connection with God, if they're Muslim, it's gonna be Allah, if they're Christian, you know, so it can, you know, really be filtered and interpreted by your ego. With this one, because there is no I present, it is just pure consciousness, right? The experience itself doesn't start getting interpreted till you start coming back online and the brain scrambling to try to make sense of it. Um, so to some degree, there is a level of our past experiences interpreting it. But also, it seems that again, as you start coming present, you're still 90% pure consciousness, let's say. So it's overriding a lot of that programming, and where people can get stuck is if they do have belief systems that are so deeply ingrained in who they are and how they identify identify. Again, my wife, perfect example, Christian, right? Like this is what God is, and then it's like, oh, that's not the experience I had. In 15 minutes, that foundation of everything that you thought about reality gets crumbled, that's gonna be difficult. So, what I find the people that struggle

Belief Systems Ego And Letting Go

SPEAKER_02 26:32

with the most are ones that have really rigid belief systems, and if those come into question, they're gonna have a again, there's this this kind of fight between the ego, like, no, no, no, it's this and the experience that's still happening of no, it isn't, right? And that creates that disconnect. So, past lives is a perfect example. I still hold that as a belief. I don't, I don't know, right? I don't know. I used to think I I knew, um, and I've just allowed a lot of these past lives, multi-universes, karma, all of those absolutely maybe I kind of lean in that camp, but I've just allowed it to be in the maybe category, right? Maybe category. Um, so for me, the experience is significantly smoother. There's nothing there that's coming into friction with the pot the the actual experience itself, or you may have the experience and be like, I knew it, right? It it may support all of the beliefs that you have, right? So it's it's interesting in that in that regard.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

That's really interesting. The other thing is I was thinking, you know, we can all we've all met very egotistical people. So are they gonna have a uh harder time letting go of their ego? Do they struggle, or is it just exactly the same as the rest of us? We just have to we just open up to and let that filter go.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

It's um it's it's interesting because you know, there's different different people have different views on it. For me, I would have felt that I would have been a big resistor, a little bit of a control freak. Um, you know, but I remember when I took the medicine the first time, like I had this all within a fraction of a fraction of a second, right? Of oh, you've killed yourself now, right? And then this other little thought came in as like beautiful, right? Just surrender. And I was able to allow it. Some folks don't, and they can resist it. And you could see it to some degree, they may have a very physical experience. Um, and then yes, when they come back online, that's that's where it gets interesting. Again, the integration phase. I've I've got friends that I I love, but they're tied to whatever their identity may be. I'm I'm a super intellect, right? Um, and if this goes against that, the ego's gonna restructure and move back to the familiar faster than somebody like again. As I walked into, I didn't have the same religious um beliefs as my wife. I I had them, but they were loosely held, right? So when they were challenged, I'm like, okay. Um, but if you don't and you think that you know everything about whatever it may be, yeah, those folks could actually just revert back to their old baseline personality pretty quickly so they could have this full experience, but it really not shift them, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Yeah, it did. It did. So would you recommend this to people? Is this something that people should experience just to get that other viewpoint?

SPEAKER_02 29:43

It saved my life, which means, you know, it saved my marriage, and the impact it's had on my children is you know, there it'd be impossible for me to express it. Um, the impact it's had on my life. I couldn't express it, right? Um, but there's some folks out there that have had very destabilizing experiences from it and probably regret doing it. But what I see the majority of people, right, and again, because we're all going to experience it differently, if you approach it safely, if you do really good screening, get really good informed consent, work with smaller doses up to a larger dose, I think if you're in the right place for it, who wouldn't benefit from knowing what they truly are underneath all their identity, right? Who wouldn't benefit from an experience of of connection with again, God, source, consciousness, whatever you want to name it, right? I I think that's something that if more people had, um, at least here in the States, it would look differently. Um, and I'm assuming in most other countries it would look differently. Yeah, um, because it's gonna that, yeah, that experience is gonna shape everything that you see in reality. And so as I walk through the world or I meet people at conferences, I could see folks that um that are still deeply tied to their identity. And I don't say that in a judgmental way, it actually comes from compassion of like, hi, I'm Jim the accountant. It's like, no, man, that's what you do for work. That's not who you are underneath all of this. And you know, it's hard not to kind of see the world and wish more people could or would have the experience.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Yeah. Fascinating. Not something that I've ever really delved into, but it sounds um sounds really interesting. Can I just ask you one question? This this bit of a silly question, but it's gonna bug me. How on earth did anybody find out that this toad had this milky venom that contained this molecule that could help us release all of our filters? Where has that come from?

SPEAKER_02 31:55

It's a great question, too. And um, and I and I I should know the gentleman's name, but I want to say Albert Most. Um, and that might have been his pseudo name. He wrote a book on uh the snoring desert toad. So historically, we think he was probably one of the first people who just randomly um you know milked a toad. I think he put it on the edge of a cigarette, right, and smoked it, and then he started working with it. And uh you can I I recommend people looking up because I'm I'm sure I'm butchering the story, but at least in its current 40-year-again, it's an infant as far as I'm concerned. It's a 40-year-old psychedelic in the way that we're using it now. And and some folks again claim that it had some indigenous practices um with the Siri tribe down in New Mexico. There's no evidence that I see that supports that, but again, I don't I don't know, so I wouldn't discredit it. Um, but again, to actually smoke the venom, you need a pretty high heat, um, you know, something that can create very like a blowtorch almost, like a small mini blowtorch. So I'm not sure if indigenous cultures had access to a propane torch. Um, but we know they worked with it in substances like the Yopo seeds and again some other plants that contain uh, you know, aspects of or like smaller amounts of uh 5MO DMT. So yeah, there's a gentleman out there that wrote this book under a pseudoname. Uh again, I should know his name because it's uh it's it's it's a pretty interesting story of how he created it and then started working with it.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

I'll have to go back to it.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Now we have what we have today. Yeah, I apologize. I should know. I won't say it's Albert Most, um, but there's there's a lot of lot of literature on him. I think he wrote the first book on the topic. Um and he's kind of a legend in the community.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

Brilliant. Well, thank you, Stefan. It's been it's been eye-opening for me. Um, but really, really interesting. I might have to go and read his book, Albert. Albert

How Bufo Was Discovered

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Most, do you say? I might have to go to the book.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Yeah, I again I should know that off the top of my head. Oh, no problem. Let me see here. Not to take your time.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Uh and I'll put it underneath the episode, and then people can have a people can have a research as well as to how this came about.

SPEAKER_02 34:19

Yes, it's uh Buffalo Varius, the psychedelic uh the psychedelic toad of the Sonoran Desert by Albert Most, published in 1984.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Right. Thank you. That's another book on my book list.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

I will have to interesting read, but yeah, yeah, the the history behind it again. I I'm I'm I'm still with you. I wish I understood his thinking behind it. Because if you look at this, there's many toads, and there's you know, there's other toads, cane toad, there's other toads that have secretions. So how did he find this specific one? Um, who would just smoke a random substance, first off, right? Um I'm I'm not much of a psychonaut, so I'm to me just this imagining this gentleman just like let's let's try this. Yeah, is outside my will well, but um good on him. I'm glad he did because it it's absolutely changed the trajectory of my life.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Yeah. I wonder what I wonder how he had that thought. That always interests me. But anyway, um thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I've really um enjoyed hearing about your work, and um, I will put up all the details and the books that you've written underneath the episode. And um one last question. Do you where do you see all of this going? Because I know it's getting more and more popular at the moment, but where do you think it will lead?

SPEAKER_02 35:44

I think short term it's going to remain in the, you know, for the majority, a lot of the underground practitioners, um, even though in our course over the last few years, I'm starting to see almost a 50-50 split between uh underground facilitators and therapists. So as many therapists are you know having their own experiences, they're seeing the therapeutic benefit of it and thinking, oh, this is something that would really benefit my clients. Um, so we're starting to see it move in that direction. And again, at least here in the States, you know, there's a couple of uh groups that are creating some really good research around it. It's in phase two trials right now, I think. So I see it moving in the direction of it being a really powerful therapeutic tool. Um, so it's it's moving in the direction. So I'm I'm hoping in the next you know three to five years that it's more accessible to people in a really good, safe environment.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yeah. Fabulous. Thank you, Stefan. Thank you so much for chatting with me. I've enjoyed hearing all about it.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Well, I appreciate you giving me some time. Thank you kindly.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

No problem at all. So if you've enjoyed listening to us chatting, please like and share the podcast. You can also support and of course subscribe, and I will speak to you all again soon.