Silent Epidemic Exposed: Therapist Vince Ruiz Explains Why 1 in 4 Americans Walk Away from Family

Welcome to a powerful episode of the Crackin Backs Podcast, where we explore the sensitive and increasingly prevalent topic of family estrangement with acclaimed therapist Vince Ruiz. With research indicating that roughly 1 in 4 Americans experiences estrangement from a family member, this episode seeks to uncover the complexities behind why families silently break apart.

In this deeply insightful conversation, Vince Ruiz sheds light on the emotional, psychological, and societal factors fueling the growing epidemic of parent-child estrangement. Discover common triggers such as emotional abuse, toxic behaviors, conflicting values, unmet expectations, and traumatic family events. Vince also addresses how differing lifestyle choices, political views, and religious beliefs can become insurmountable barriers, fracturing even the strongest familial bonds.

Explore how changing attitudes toward mental health, self-care, and boundary-setting influence today's younger generations, making them more likely to sever ties to protect their emotional well-being. Vince shares compelling examples from his therapy practice, highlighting scenarios where new relationships or feelings of being "replaced" can exacerbate family tensions.

We discuss the profound emotional toll estrangement exacts on both parents and adult children—including grief, guilt, shame, and relief—and how these intense emotions can manifest physically and psychologically. Vince Ruiz provides invaluable guidance on coping strategies for both sides, emphasizing how crucial empathy, understanding, and clear communication can be in addressing family estrangement.

Whether you're a parent trying to reconnect with an estranged child, or someone grappling with the decision to distance yourself from family, this conversation offers compassionate advice and professional insights. Additionally, therapists and healthcare providers will gain critical perspectives on supporting families navigating the challenging dynamics of estrangement.

About Vince Ruiz: Vince Ruiz is a distinguished therapist specializing in family dynamics, trauma, and mental health. Renowned for his empathetic approach, Vince frequently addresses complex relationship issues on platforms like H Hour, helping countless individuals and families find paths toward healing and reconciliation.

To learn more about Vince Ruiz, visit:

• Vince Ruiz on H Hour
• Follow Vince Ruiz on Social Media

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Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron: 0:00

Welcome to the crack and backs podcast. Did you know that one in four Americans quietly live with family estrangement? Today, we're pulling back the curtain on the silent epidemic with therapist Vince Ruiz. We'll dive deep into why adult children cut ties, how conflicting values, trauma and boundaries collide, and the emotional toll it takes on both the parents and the children. It's real. It's raw. It's essential listening for anyone who's ever wondered, how do family bonds break and can they ever be repaired? Let's get into it. Welcome. Vincent Ruiz, I gotta tell you, man, our last show, we had more compliments about you and your energy and your delivery and everything that we couldn't think of. Anybody better to have on to talk about family estrangement than you. Welcome back, buddy.

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 0:55

Spencer, thanks for having me back. And estrangement is something that I'm personally familiar with right? That is part of addiction and trauma in some cases, and we'll get into the weeds about what that looks like in my practice and or for myself. But when you all asked, I thought about the complexities, how it can become deeply personal and it's it's a really, really, really, really simple decision for people to choose to be estranged or to reconcile. And I would say, from a practitioner perspective, as a counselor, that's what I see in my office as a provider of therapy and counsel, that's what my team hears and sees, because it's a really big decision. Yet, oftentimes, folks need the courage, that moral courage, to make a decision. Do I want to reconcile and heal here? Is there anything to be reconciled? Or do I need to remain estranged for my own mental health and well being, or whatever the situation might be? So when you asked, it was a no brainer, because at some point in every person's therapeutic process, their family system is going to come up. And whether it's a healthy, strong family system or not, it's just part of our story, and it drives us forward as human beings. I believe, well,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 2:03

I was, you know, I take it. We can refer to it as almost like a silent epidemic. And unbeknownst to me, when it was brought to my attention by one of my close friends for many, many years, and that she's going through this trial and tribulation with her own son, like I didn't know where this was going and how pervasive it is. One in four Americans are estranged from the family members. And what I mean to be real clear, because when we when, when I brought it to Dr Terry's attention, we thought it was maybe, you know, the parents removing themselves from the family unit. But no, it's the kid. The kid grows up and is able to make their own decisions, and then they dissociate, completely dissociate. So, you know, we were surprised about this. So what, what do you find is maybe some of the social dynamics that that are inflicted on these, these kids. Can we start somewhere with this?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 2:57

Yeah, I think the first part, at least from my perspective, is that the beautiful thing in that story or narrative, even though it's filled with like tragedy and suffering and hurt and betrayals and rejections, the beautiful thing as a society in our evolution as humans, is the world safe enough and prosperous for people to do that right like you can up and leave and move to where you want within the immediate 48 relative with relative freedom and ease and choose to be away and reinvent yourself. You can move to other parts of the world. So the plus side, the good thing is, is that we have more freedom of movement, the ability to do those things. The downside is, what happens is people are left with an empty feeling. They feel disrespected. There's an absence of expected gratitude and all of those things. And I think what's even more dynamic I'll add to Spencer we take a look at, is look at is how far do you want to go? Estrangement between parents and children, children and children, right? Siblings, right? And the myriad of reasons is dynamic from the most severe and intense ones of maybe there was an abuse, maybe there was child molestation, maybe somebody within the family system committed an egregious crime that violated the social fabric in that community, and everybody needed to just go elsewhere, because that's what happened. So I'm giving you the seriousness of where I sit and the things that I hear, right? But I think that is some of the stuff that gets glossed over, because there's a degree of entitlement from a perspective as a parent, right? And I say that humbly, as I have an 18 year old and I have a one year old, their needs are remarkably different. Yet I would tell you, you know, my 18 year old is free to go as she sees fit and pleases, and I would be devastated and crushed if she never comes back to me for bad advice. I've given her 18 years of it, right? And then alternatively, we take those lessons learned, and then we try to, you know, do better, maybe the next time, or with other people, or in our practice. And so I share that humbly. The perspective I'm sharing is not only a practitioner professional is this, I am non dogmatic about that. There are things that when my 18 year was born, I was 25 years old, I saw the world differently. The wars were raging in my life. So the expectations of what it meant to be a man and a parent and a father were very different for me as a person transitioned into a full adulthood, whereas at this phase of life, there's more stability and expectations in my own personal life, right? So how do I flip that around and support my clients with a degree of empathy? It starts with a real focus on cultural empathy and just not assuming any of the conclusions about estrangement being a bad thing. It's just coming from a place of interest, first and foremost, not curiosity, and really asking good questions of, hey, does this favor you and help you to estrange yourself from your family or your siblings or business or whatever it is, or does it hurt you? And it's a closed ended question, hey, yes, it helps me. Yes, it No, it doesn't as a start point in a conversation. So I think, I think before we get to the process of healing or growth in that process, some folks have to sit down and consider like, hey on paper, when I write these things down about the situation, the relationship, what is it that's going on? Is there potential that I am the villain in the story, and my intentions were nothing but good intentions. And so I'll share an example with you to start, right? Is this and this, it's very real this day and age in our public school system, specifically, right? At least in New Jersey, students are favored if they are classified particular ways, right, whether it's with a certain plan or support model, whatever, whatever terminology you want to use our nomenclature, but most public schools throughout the country have a version of that, right? Well, then that young person transitioned to high school, and they're still getting the same accommodations, SATs and and classrooms, and they're outperforming. They got the GPA, and it's all necessary, and I think it's a good thing. Yet there comes a point when parents can start driving those things on young people, right? No, no. You have ADHD, and you have a learning disability and you have this, right? Well, where it gets tricky and messed up is this is now that kid is 18, and because they had all those accommodations, they did get into Notre Dame. They're a phenomenal student. They are the best and the brightest right now, they're in Notre Dame, and they drop that paperwork on Notre Dame's desk. And Notre Dame is a private institution. They can't accept people because it but they do have to accommodate by federal law. If they have money, they get federal money. Well, the student is going to be treated different. But now they're 18 and 19 or 20, and let's just say they said they succeed. They get through Notre Dame, and they've had the extra time or or whatever on exams and things like that, and different accommodations. Well, by the time they get down to Chicago, and they're working at Goldman, I'm just using an example, right? Well, Goldman Sachs doesn't particularly care if you had an accommodation and or your mom support you in that process. And that young man or woman is now finding out that the world doesn't particularly care about all those special, unique things that were driven down on that particular person. I'm using one very real, real example, but that highlights, in a nutshell, a lot of the blind spots both the child and the parents may have in the story. That parent was doing the right thing every step of the way to take care of their child, but eventually the child felt like, Hey, Mom, Dad, you can't fix this anymore. For me, I have to go do the particular thing at some point that that child may never leave Chicago again, or at least not to go back to wherever home is or was at that time. So I'm giving you a very, very, very simplified story that's lacking hours of therapy Council conversations, but that's the general gist of things that can happen. I'm not saying the parents were right or wrong, and I'm not saying that the young man wasn't or is right, but that is the complexity we're dealing with

Dr. Spencer Baron: 8:25

you that is fantastic. You know, I think back while you were talking, and I was also thinking back to an era when the family unit was consistent, and we're talking like in the, you know, 50s, 40s and 50s, when the family unit was generations, maybe living in one area. Now, the family unit might be a single parent, and they're responsible for so much because that child doesn't have a relationship with the father or mother or what have you. So there's no, you know, multiple social dynamics, or, you know, there's no conversation about, hey, what's the best way to raise this kid? It's just the way that parent, that one parent might think, you know, now, it's changed so much since that time, and I How Does that have an impact? And I mean, obviously that seems to be a big influence if, now one in four Americans have that, you know, estranged family member, you know,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 9:30

well, I think behind it all, there's some form of abuse that happens, or perceived abuse, right? And so if we say 50 to 75% of folks report, depending on the study you look at, is that they experience some kind of abuse, and that's why they just decided to move on, right? And in some cases, here's the part that's really dynamic. There's children that are abusive to that single parent. They're holding the single parent hostage attitudes and behaviors, right? Because nobody ever wants to say, hey, it's a badass kid. They want to say, oh, it's Oppositional Defiant Disorder, or they have ADHD, or they have a thing like, Sure, all could be true, yet they know that they have a single mom that's fighting for the life do their best. Those are bad ass kids, right? And nobody can ever say that out loud. What are you giving up? Hope? No, there's none of that. I'm just calling it what it is that trajectory for that young person. So I think there's social pressures in that story. And you're right. It is a very myopic perspective that single parent has to take on because they're not in a thriving space. Generally, no matter how well they do or don't do, they're just trying to survive to hold us together for the little humans, however good or bad they're doing, right is very different. I think there's some luck involved in all of it, but I think the emotional abuse goes two ways. Right? There are kids that can be ungrateful, kind of jerky, straight up, mean, and then they hit 18, and that parent says, yeah, like, you might be me, but we need to take a break because, like, I need to take care of me, right? I'm giving you another version that is very, very unsettling and very difficult to accept. And I say it again, the humility in this right? My my 18 year old, right? Like, before her half brother was born, she was like, Hey, Dad, I just want to share it with you. Like, I think you're a great man. I know you've been through a lot. You were kind of absent. You're a good, good man. You were a terrible father. I really hope you do a much better job this go around, right? And I'm just closing up to get in the nature of my relationship with my daughter. It's healthy, it's good. And she said it with a much more light hearted fashion, right? But what's important is I have to take note of that, right, and heed it. Because there's things in that narrative or story she recalls, whether they're accurate or true or mildly interesting, because she's pulling from a particular either semantic memory, that's facts and knowledge or an episodic memory, right? Something she feels she saw witnessed. Hey, you weren't nice to my mom. Hey, when you were strung out on drugs, you were absent when you were at war, I have no idea what you were doing, and on and on and on, right? So I share those things from the place of that's how I start the conversation with human beings. I don't give you a why or reason to your estrangement, or the next person, or this person or that I come from a place of interest, to ask really important questions, of like, what would your life be better without these people? And so what happens in many cases, right? And this is what I end up hearing, is in one side of the story, they lose the power and control that they maybe had in the relationship, right? That's no longer existed because they didn't evolve the relationship to understand that their 18 year old is no longer eight. They're closer to 28 and so so I think that's part of the parent is growing with the child and and the more humanistic side of it that I espouse in graduate school is that like we're all growing together at the same time, like it's all happening simultaneously. And in the last 20 years, you all have seen this bet more than I, as professionals in your field, is things are being driven faster than they ever have. Yeah, it's happening super fast.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 12:55

So interesting. My to clearly exemplify something that you had just mentioned. My ex wife called me several years ago and said, Oh my god, I just read an article of the 15 things that you should not be doing for your children, your your adult children. I do 14 of them, and we laughed about it because she, you know, she'll claim for them. And now they're on their own, and now they're on their own, and they want to meet a woman that does that for them. So these are, like, you know, benign, elementary things. But speaking on that, you know, I know that there you would be atrocious, you know, you know, issues that might, you know, bring a child to say, God, I got to get out of this place. This is terrible. But what about the minor you know, the, what I call the micro traumas, the little things that that kids, you know, experience, that are so subtle, but at a certain point, you know, you get, you know, and they're an adult child, they get fed up, and then they go, screw this. I'm out of here, you know, and that what in your

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 14:03

experience marginalization? Marginal. Somebody can marginalize their child because they're caught up in their adult Bs, and then the child feels marginalized and cast off and not important in part of the story to pursue their dreams and ambitions, right? Because the greatest thing we give a child, or anybody for that matter, is encouragement and support and the ability to make better decisions for themselves. That applies from parents to children, right? Because, in our absence, remove us from the situation they're fending for themselves, right? Like, whether somebody is a trust fund baby or not, they still have to fend for themselves at some point, right? And so. So the point being is that is that's one extreme where people think finance is the solution. No, no, no. No, no. In my experience, it's quite the opposite. It's the ability to say no. And for me, it was drugs, right? But for everybody has a no right, it's something that they need to be able to say no to, right? And so if somebody's marginalized, they were never empowered to think and make decisions and pursue and explore and create enjoy a state of play. They were just cast off. Hey, you need to be. Kid better heard, not heard, seen something, something, what grandma used to say back in 19 whatever, right? Like those, those things, right? The second part would just be ignoring, not quite neglect, right? Hey, there's food, there's water, maybe some AC, maybe some heat coat on your back you're getting to school. House is relatively clean. There's no feces on the floor, right? But they're ignored. The iPads doing the thinking, helping them think about something, something YouTube's the neighbors kids, which in turn, means the parents are influencing that kid more than the actual parent in the house. Yeah, just ignore, ignore your kids. Is a good way to not wonder why they come back for Thanksgiving, like you ignored me when I was 11. Why would I come back at 21 that makes no sense, right? So that's a logical progression. And then the flip side, and that's a parent's role to a child, in my estimation, is that is the parents responsibility, because the child may show you things that you don't like, and we'll talk into a list I wrote down about things that can come up that do strain a human right? And then the last one I made a note of escape coding. You know, you're the reason we have no money. Oh, you're cheerleading and you're ice hockey and lacrosse stick. That's why no money. Oh, we're always doing this for you. I gave up that for you. I gave up that for you. I do this because I love you, you and you and this and that. Yeah, I hear it all the time. Dr Spencer, Dr Terry, I hope your audience hears that right there. If you ever catch yourself doing that, I would tell you right now, you are on a one way track to having a lonely Thanksgiving and then wondering why nobody shows up for it. 100% Oh, my God. And I think if Thanksgiving is important to you, of course, right? But I think that's, that's what happens, right? Is children, if they get that from their parents, that informs those core memories, right? Which leads to the belief structures about themselves worthy of being ignored or marginalized or scapegoated, then they'll start acting that out in their relationships, in their business and academia, and then they're wondering why, at 30, they're like, you know, I let people talk to me a particular way. It reminds me of mom or dad, something, something, something, whatever, and there was no healing or growth out of that process. It doesn't mean they're not an effective adult. Doesn't mean that they're a bad parent. It means the they're working through, the patterns of thought, speech and behavior that are consistent with that, that adolescent or childlike version that was ignored or marginalized, and things like that.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 17:09

So, so I've heard that from patients and friends going, I did that for you. I did that for you. Always, yeah, right. What's your solution for that? What's your what's your advice to try and start turning the clock around or turning I did it. I did

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 17:24

it for me, and there's no college money for you.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 17:29

So, but so what do you tell the parent if they've been saying that all along, and that kid is now 1819, and they're starting to push away, not coming back for Thanksgiving, what is some of your solutions to start pulling that bridge back together?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 17:43

Yeah, yeah, you did it for you, and then start making a list of more things you can do for you. Because if we're looking seeking external validation from the little humans, that's not coming, that's not their wiring, our job is food, water, safety, security, right? It's the iteration in the loop of like, Does this person because, dr, you're asking for a solution to the particular problem, right? It's a radical transformation, no different than the addiction thing in many ways, where it's like, no, no, I have to own it, right? And to my buddy the finger thing, right? If I have three fingers coming back at myself like, Hey, I don't like this kid. My kid is being whatever, right? Well, what are the three things I got going on a relationship, because everybody assumes that we're supposed to be best friends with a parent later in life, and that that that maybe evolves, if you're lucky, right? If you're fortunate, if you grow into that, if, if your parent grows into that, because they may never grow into that, maybe you grow into a place where you're like, oh, like, and they don't see that lens. They see you in diapers, right? So that tricky question you're asking is a solution for the 18 year old. It's the parent has to take ownership of all the outcomes. And it's that letting go thing frozen, let it go. Let it go. Right? Because, right? Because, with my 16 year old, New Jersey is informed consent, right? Like you, she can be let free in New Jersey, I'm on the hook till 18 if she does something wild, right? But like, hey, like you want to go and do the world is dangerous, but it's not scary. So, so the answer, in my estimation, is radical, radical acceptance. How do you get there? That's what I'd recommend to this person you're mentioning. Is like, Hey, you got to consider counsel and therapy and be explicit with that person. You know, if you're not ready to tell the truth, then don't lie, right? Because their truth might be, I did all of this and gave all these things up for 18 years for this kid, and this is the thanks I get. Well, the payoff was the wrong reason. On the on the front end, you were doing it for yourself,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 19:34

yeah. What about there's, there's two curiosities I have. What about the parent that has is it becomes stuck in when you're rearing a child at a young age and you're always telling them what to do, no to this, no to that. This is what you need to do. This is what you have to do. This. And the strangest thing it carries into their adult childhood that the parents still telling them. To do instead of, you know, ignoring or more marginalizing or whatever, and the parent doesn't realize they're doing that with any conversation about that.

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 20:11

Well, like you use the keyword, there's curiosity, and I prefer interest, but I think curiosity is a good place if we're playing and exploring and it's just asking a question of our child and being okay with whatever comes back, like, because this keeps that conversation going right. Like they may not be ready to explore really, really complex, difficult things. They may not be emotionally mature enough. They might have a cognitive impairment or back to that, that young man that had the learning disability, right? They could, they could be 1,000,001 reasons. But I think, as a parent, regardless, is for our children is to come from a place of just a good question. Hey, I don't have an answer for you, but this, have you considered a question? Hey, what question would you ask about that situation? I would ask this. Hey, can I give you an extra credit? One, I'd ask this question too, and then the kid has to go ask the question. So I know that's a loss of power and control, because the world in people's imagination is this inherently dangerous thing. I've done some dangerous things. I know dangerous people. And, yeah, sure, but it doesn't have to be scary. And that's the part, right? It's like, like she was in Mexico a few weeks ago with her, with her friends, right? Like, 18, here's the deal, like, State Department phone number, carry a sharp object on you, right? Like, down the checklist of family protocols, right? And then you have to trust that she paid close enough attention to when we were asking the questions when she was 10. Hey, how do you wave down a taxi in another language? I don't know. Well, show me what a cool idea. Yeah, terrified. How do you check into a hotel, right? Hey, who would you go to for help in this place? Who would you ask for? How do you drive here? Do you stop it? Really, I don't have the answers solutions for every parent and every family. What I'm saying is always have to come from a place of curiosity. For you asking a question, hey, what do you know about that? What do you understand about that? What? And that's a really humble, humble place to come from is because you're approachable, you're open, right? And then you have to have really good boundaries and rules I didn't have these when she was little. Her brother's the benefactor of the growth curve, and my clients are the benefactor of me just being radically transparent about what I didn't know versus what I know now, right? And I think that that that is, that's the best I could offer a client any given time. It's like, Hey, have you just tried to ask a question? Because if we're placing demands as that child is growing by the time they're 14, they figured you out. They know if you're a fraud or not. If they know they know they know they know. And it doesn't work anymore to say, Hey, do as I say, not as I do, probably before that, but I would say 14 is the cut off for most young people. They're just like, it's not even believable at this point, or mom or dad, right? If they're living in a perpetual state of lying, cheating or stealing, and I use those three things as the big three, lying, cheating, stealing,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 22:51

I gotta tell you, man, I think it is so important that you mentioned but I refer to it as the power of questions. Instead of telling somebody what to do, ask them those questions that you just went through if they were going to Mexico or, you know, by themselves as a teenager, or do you know what to do here? Do you know what to do there? Instead of what most parents do is they try to fix it and tell them what this is, what you need to know, and then that kid automatically shuts off. But I think that and that raises conversation. Hey, would you know what to do if this scenario came up, and then it causes them to, it invites them to ask, to answer, I don't know, or this is what I would do. And you would say, Well, do you think that's the best approach. You know, it's brilliant man

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 23:44

I love. I think it's just more encouraging and supportive, right? How often do our children actually need our harassment? How often does any child need harassment, right? Like, like those, those young people that get harassed and traumatized and neglected and abused, I would say, all end up in the juvenile facility or the hospitals, man, and because it's the absence of encouragement and support, it's it's what happens when the folks fall into the space of, hey, maybe it's not a catastrophic situation, right? Or it's life threatening or abusive, but yet their own life, they're still working through their stuff, figuring stuff out, and they lack the humility to openly state like their own children when it's appropriate, like, Hey, I'm doing my best to figure it out, and we're gonna figure it out together. And, like, math homework is hard, right? Like, my daughter learned how to do math very different than I did. It was painful, right? I have a Doctor of Education. You would just assume that I'd be able to pick up that text and rip through it and be like, Oh, this is how you do it, right? So, so it had to come from a place to your point of that curiosity and interest in, like, all right, cool. I don't math like you. Math literally. So I need to know, what are you learning? Okay, now we have a conversation. The grade doesn't even matter in school. She just knows that I can go to data from struggling to school like too easy, right? And she'll try to manipulate that she's supposed to right, or he will, or they will, whatever right they're supposed to. That's your job as a parent, figuring out what the. Boundaries appropriate, not that you don't care or you're disinterested, right? If it's important to your child, you want to be supportive of that. That's it. It's hard to do because it might not be your interest, and that, that for me, is something, you know, I won't get into that part, but I struggle with that, right?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 25:19

That reminds me of times that I would I learned to ask my boys simple questions, how, how am I doing as a dad, you know, even when they were young and when they were more mature and and able to be very candid, you know, because kids can be really candid with you. So I go, No, no, really I want to know. No, Dad, you're doing great. No, no, I want to know. Tell me, you know, my jerk off here, did I do something stupid here? And I'd ask you that, I tell you, and man, we I open it up. I make myself vulnerable. And I think that's really important. I'm going to flip the switch on you here. Sure. What if we have a kid listening to or an adult kid listening to this that can't stand their Gosh, damn parent, and they don't want know what to do, because that parent ain't gonna change because they're right. What can that? What would you tell that kid, man?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 26:12

So the first part is, let's, let's, can we add a little little bit, like a log on to the fire your Hell yeah, so throw a log on, and then we'll put a little bit of gasoline. So mom and dad vote one way, but I vote this way. Whatever the ways are, they're just different ways, right? And then so we go down to the core, right? We look at personality profiles, right, and we think about how conservatives maybe are more conscientious. Let's just say mom and dad are more conservative leaning right. That's where they lean right. The more conscientious, super detail oriented, organized, right, and all of those things right for whatever the reason epigenetics suggested that you got three generations ago and whoever something, Brooklyn Bridge, smoking weed, cutting school, avoiding draft, whatever. That's the way you lean more left, two very different worlds and worldviews under the same roof. And now this kid 1617, listening to mom and dad say, Maga Maga Maga Maga Maga Maga, kid doesn't believe it. Kid doesn't experience it. Kid feels differently. It can be perceived that the child's ungrateful number one, and then number two is the parents look at it as like, hey, my there's something wrong with my kid. Or they're either way, you can flip it around either way, right? So, so you get the idea. So what I would say is, this is, once it comes to things of that nature, I think forgiveness, and it's oversimplification, but it's the highest level of arrival, because you've worked past some stuff at that point. It's forgiveness in the sense of, this is not because anybody's right or wrong. That's what, that's what news outlets and media and politicians want us to believe, right? It's more about forgiveness in the sense of, like, mom and dad see it that way based on their experiences. And like, anything they sent my way because they see it differently. I forgive them for that. I see it this way. And then you make a decision about, like, hey, how much can I tolerate mom or dad for all right? I'm good for two hours on Christmas or Hanukkah, period, and not all of Hanukkah, man, it's just like I'm there for one candle and I'm out right there. Yeah, right. You see what? I mean, it's but you make a decision about, like, hey, but I'm going to this family, because that's the family I kind of right. And I think that's where we get really, really, really good, right? And then some families make the decision to be like, Hey, we don't talk about money, politics or religion in this house or whatever it might be. I think that's a fool's errand, because if you can't talk about those things at home or in the safety of a classroom, where are you going to talk about those things? That's my estimation, because it makes us more equipped, more empathetic to multiple cultures and people. But what I would tell you is, I think it's forgiveness, and I know that's not a sexy, romantic answer that a young person wants to hear, because it's hard and it hurts and it's going to crush the ego, and then you're gonna find out some things about who you actually are, even when they don't forgive you. And I know it sounds a little bit, maybe even biblical in some ways, yet I would tell you, when I see a person arrive at another level of their transformation, forgiveness is somewhere in there of themselves or others. Hey, I said some really mean things about the way you vote or your political orientation. Hey, I said some really nasty things about all the people that drive Teslas right, whatever the things are, right? Because these are very real things, and these are the things that can divide families. COVID shows that, yeah,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 29:12

you know, you brought up a really interesting point. And we've heard from therapists, even the one the show right before you. And I think people don't listen a lot, right? And so you get people saying, I don't, you don't want to talk politics or religion in this house. Yet, that's what's on everybody's mind, right? So everybody's talk wants to talk about but, oh, you're not allowed to talk about it. Well, I think people get tired of having an ideology, whether if it's different from them being shoved down their throat instead of just going list. Why do you feel that way, like Spencer was saying, ask questions. Oh, you have a different opinion me. Why do you have a different Epitome and actually discuss religion and politics, but ask the questions, or why they think that way instead of just being lectured actually listening? To why they feel that way, and you can still disagree. I mean, I think there's people are afraid of being heard and and having a different opinion, but it's okay to disagree, you know. But you hear this all the time. We don't talk to this. We don't talk to well, you're like, you just said, Well, where do you talk about that? Online. You get a keyboard, and you just start showing to all online, all these people are fucking idiots. And, you know, you know, I don't know. So how do you start bridging those gaps to get people to shut up and listen?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 30:35

Yeah, well, I think it takes practice, and it's intention and deliberation, and it's a concerted effort and plan right? It's like, for for me, and I think this should speak through pain that I've learned this is like, I want to be convinced of the other side of everything, analog or digital, I don't know, convince me like, like, like, I think there's an appropriateness on time for everything, and I think that's the part that drives us forward and helps. And I'm a little biased here, right? I think Americans as the gold standard helps us drive innovation forward, in many cases, is being open minded and coming from a place of asking questions and creating meritocracies and things of that nature. There's a place for diversity that's better Elements of Thought, speech, behavior, perspectives in the home is where it gets practiced. Sorry, to your point, and that's the part. If you see somebody out in the world that's struggling with that stuff, it's that they have put up such rigid boundaries and reinforced them, that they've convinced themselves that they need to be right and any cost, whereas it's like quite the opposite. I would say that people that grow and they start learning, and they start changing their expression of who they are, they just start asking a better question of themselves, of like, Hey, am I interpreting this correctly? Do I understand this? Well, you know what? If I live there, actually, I'd probably think that way, right? Because you can't say things like, firearms is another one, right? Like, oh, guns are bad and terrible. Nobody needs a gun. Okay, sure. 100% I agree, right? Like the reality is the biggest mean is strongest they can grab a club or a weapon or a pen or whatever. Still gonna try to rise to the top. That's the thing, right? So firearms kind of create this level setting thing in the United States of America, to the best of our knowledge. But what I would say is this, if you live in certain parts of California or New Jersey, for that matter. Do you necessarily need a firearm? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. And I love weapons, but I live in different places to know that. It's, you know, if I really need one, there'll be plenty laying around, right? Alternatively, right? Is this, if you live in Montana and you don't have at least a rifle, you're just a bad neighbor, and that has nothing to do with politics. That's right, it's situational, environmental. So I, you know, I emphasize that quite a bit is because my it drives my students nuts, and hopefully it annoys some of your listeners in a healthy way to be like, ah, you know, maybe, maybe not, right? But I think that that that is part of the driving forces. You just have to listen and be okay with whatever it gets sent at you. And then here's, here's the more interesting thing to that I'll share with you. Give you some of the war background. I think your audience could appreciate man. Every time I went to Iraq or Afghanistan, I read as much stuff as I could about those particular cultures, those geographic regions, right? Like, I didn't know who solidin was before I spent a year in solid in province, but Right? Solid in, he did some amazing shit in the Islamic something country was whatever, right running around there, who is this person? They all knew who that is in that culture. So when I'm interacting with them, these key leaders and stuff, I can have a conversation. What do you think about solid in? I don't really know what it means or doesn't, right, but Bill translate that stuff. Afghanistan, the same thing. All the Russians had all those after action reviews of the bear went over the mountain and vice versa, right? But they give you the take in on what their experience was, right? And so you just want to look at different cultures, different lenses, filters, apply that to estrangement and the human condition experience. It's the same thing. People will tell you exactly what you need to know, and sometimes what they don't say. And that's when, you know, I feel like, for my graduate students and for anybody that's evolving, that's when you know you're getting really good at listening. It's what they don't say. You start. You hear it right away. What they don't say or share. President Trump is a master at that, by the way, master level

Dr. Spencer Baron: 34:15

at listening,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 34:17

at listening, and then it's what he doesn't say. That is what he's a master at, in my estimation. So, so, so that's to be emulated. It's like, oh, like, that's just a good way to communicate, because then you're keeping people guessing all the time, and you're in control of the show. So, like, estrangement, when we apply it to that, it's a communication thing, right? I want to listen. I want to be interested, especially on a one, on one level. And that takes time, effort and attention. People would rather like heart, share something on social media, whereas to have a conversation and sit with something, invest, have a cup of coffee, you're gonna have to stop other things. You're gonna have to slow down a little bit. You're gonna have to give up a piece of yourself that you were targeting focused to forge that connection with people.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 34:58

Fantastic. So. So let's say the estrangement has gone on for many years. Sure, the parent reaches out silence reaches out nothing. I mean, I know that my dad and I, we didn't talk for seven years because of an issue, and we got back together, and I was, I had a life coach for seven years, and she made the suggestion of writing, write your dad now, and we, my dad and I were getting along really well at that, you know, after that, you know, sabbatical, sure and write him a love letter. I go, what write your father a love letter. Man, that thing turned out three pages of type written, no excuse me, handwritten, because I wanted to do old school for him, you know, and it forgave him for things that maybe he wasn't the best father about, and also to share moments that I'll never forget for the rest of my life that have served me to this day, and he's been gone since 2009 but write somebody a love letter that was powerful man, and my dad was like, it just connected us. And then two years later, he passed away, and I feel like I didn't have to make up anything. He had pancreatic cancer. And you know that it went like that, but I felt like, Man, I told him everything I wanted to do. We connected at a superior level. I don't have to make up for anything, Dad, if you want to pass, if you feel like you serve this planet, well, then do what you need to do. I'm here for you, man. And that it worked out. It worked out really well. But my tonight, okay, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. Terry, I was gonna ask a question. Well,

Dr. Terry Weyman: 36:44

on that same line, I have a I have a friend that they got divorced and the won't the the mom did bad mouth the dad and actually brainwashed the kids into thinking dad was an asshole, when dad was an asshole and the kids did not talk to dad for almost 20 years, and yet, the dad would send emails letters. Never missed a birthday, but mom would sabotage and grab the letters out of the mailbox so the kids never saw them. How as adults, they have this, this now, this locked in view of what dad was like, because their whole adolescent they were told he was evil. What's some advice you have when when one parent turns on the other parent and the kid is in the middle and now the kid estranged from the other parent, instead of really giving them a chance?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 37:40

So my first thing would suggest that mom was probably right in her story, because she he probably did something to hurt her, infidelity, abuse, neglect, something that happened in their marriage or relationship. She, she's right. He, he, she made him into a dragon in her story. Is that a fair statement, like no, like, at some point

Dr. Terry Weyman: 38:01

she was actually bipolar, and she and he never did anything. She just flipped on him,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 38:08

Okay, right? So I'm just, I'm working, I'm working through it, right? Like, there's a lot of context, right? So, so, okay, so let's just suggest now we've introduced mental illness into it, right? So that's, that's a very, that's just a variable, right? And so, yeah, you want to find out a lot about what families can withstand. Mental illness. Would do that? Schizophrenia, schizoaffective, bipolar, specifically, if somebody's rapid cycling, meaning they're just in and out of the highs and lows, that's just a lot for this is a lot to be around, right? And a lot to deal with. So she pulls up a narrative over 20 years. That's two decades of the propaganda machine. That's a full on indoctrination you have now changed that family, generation, for generations, without a doubt, going forward, not to not be recoverable. But it's, it's been 20 years. It's, it's a long period of time. Well, I think, I think my advice to to the adult children today, that's what you're asking, like, how to look at it, take it on. And I love what Dr Spencer said is like, write the letter, because that letter entails and encompasses, and Spencer don't share the details of but if you write it and you mean it, there's going to be some explicit statements about how I think you were wrong, how I might even have thought you were right, there's going to have to be some sort of forgiveness for that person and for self. And I think what we're talking about here is whether you can ever reconcile a relationship after that long and something very different. You can't predict those things, right? What I would say, though, is that if you hold on to those things and look to assign blame and you're wrongly labeling yourself as a victim, villain or hero in the story that's going to be projected onto your next relationships. Because, because everybody in that story, I'm sorry, everybody in that story could be the victim, villain or a hero, right? And it's, it's, it's very, very. Very, very tricky, right? Because alternatively, let's just suggest it was untreated bipolar. There was no therapeutic interventions, no medication. Let's just say it was ups and downs, highs and lows, right? Maybe even delusions, if it got far enough, right? All of that, all of that being stated, is that now has been projected on to the children, right? And it goes back to a form of emotional abuse. The children could grow into a space where they're like, hey, look like, I don't know what was going on with dad or not going on with dad. Maybe he's good. Maybe he's not good. I'm now 25 or 30, right? But I do know about mom. I love mom. Care about mom. She did her best, but she's got some stuff going on. Generally speaking, that family, if they find some stability elsewhere, they're probably not coming back for Thanksgiving. That man or woman bears the burden of breaking what they perceive as generational curses. It doesn't even matter if it's accurate or precise and if that Dad, Dad could have been the most wonderful person ever, but that person's mind and mission is now is like, Hey, I know what I like or I don't like, or what I will tolerate or not tolerate. Yeah, because it's saBotage what you're talking about. It's a form of neglect and abuse, and it just leaves it's a toxic, unhealthy relationship to begin with. So under, underneath the surface, before estrangement, I would say that there was probably some other things, or there might be other things that are more prevalent or pressing, and that's where I would recommend to somebody is like, you need to find an expert or professional for you to sit with, to work through that, to lay it all out, to sort it out in the absence of mom or outside influence with that third party that that helps somebody work through those things. And that is where somebody, after five sessions, 10 sessions, they can see their stuff, they've heard it and gotten feedback. Do I want to stay estranged, or do I want to reconcile? Do I need to do I need to estranged? Do I need to reconcile? And that's the growth part. That's the maturity part.

Dr. Terry Weyman: 41:48

You know, on that same line of estrangement the other when Spencer first brought this topic to me, my first mindset was to go into cults, you know, and and because a lot of time you hear these stories of my kid got sucked into this cult, whatever, religious or whatever, and a cult won't allow them to talk to the parents, and that parents are just trying to how do you I guess it's a two part question, what does a cult look for in a child to cultivate them, and how does the parent deal with when the when the child is lost, to try and get them back?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 42:27

Well, the first part is, I think on the humorous side is I feel like a cult member because I like CrossFit, and that's very much own thing, right? I am, I am aid. I am 1,000% Greg Glassman dosed me that, and I bought in, right? I believe it, right. So, okay, that's the first part. Second part is, as you were sharing, I immediately thought of my of the yellow Deli. They have, like, they have phenomenal sandwiches and soups and delis. There's like, 12 of them, and it's like a tribal thing, and there's a lot to it. I'm not going to try to rehash what it is. But anyway, but anyway, if you ever get to stop anyone, that's phenomenal food. However, all the people working in the place, whether it's coffee, the restaurant, making building stuff, their compound or whatever, are all folks that are part of the cult, right? What my estimation in terms of what people look for is no different than what they're looking for to associate an affiliate with gangs, the military organizations, they're looking for something that's missing. And then leaders of organizations are masters to identify particular profiles of what fits their particular group or organization, right. And if a good recruiter, whether it's in human resources, in a fortune 500 is looking to bring people into their cult, right, or we're talking about some sort of nefarious Jim Jones something, something kind of thing. It's been modeled. There's grooming in there, right? And then the unhealthy kind of way, and it's filling a gap or a need. Oftentimes, it will circle back to these, and I think this, I would be hard pressed to find anybody refute this. It's going to go back to this Maslow baseline, day one, psychology, thing, safety, security, food and water. Wow, some something is not being provided in that space. That person is generally choosing safety and security over privacy. At that point, that is what they've chosen. Wow, that that's what they've chosen. And in all of those organizations I rattled off for you, there's very complex and different reasons people go into them, whether we're on the deviant side of things, or when the quote, unquote good side or righteous side, or somewhere in the middle, the people that are profiling know exactly who and what they're looking for. It's patterns of speech, thought and behavior. That person's absent a male model in their life. That person's absent a mother figure. That person didn't have food safety, security, they didn't know where the next meal. They didn't have a job. They they have this going on. Hey, they're a little bit funny looking, and we know it, right? Whatever the thing is, right? But, but that's how wickedly evil the world is. Yeah, unbelievable. That's my estimation. And I'm not a cult expert, but I would tell you is that if somebody's strange. Yeah, they're vulnerable to those things. And then you could run down the list of things that come with that. And right here, I mean notes, right? Religious or cultural things, right? Political polarization, mental illness, can be exacerbated, especially after 18. And that's something I thought about in my notes before this call. It's like 18, a young person goes to college or, let's say, the military, their first job, or whatever. Actually, are you guys? Okay, if I ask you a question, yeah, at 18, what are the first things that come up for many people in Western culture, based on those examples I gave, what comes up at 18?

Dr. Spencer Baron: 45:31

What am I going to do? What am I going to write? How am

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 45:35

I going to make a living? Where am I going to go? Who do I want to be? How am I going to feel like I got to pay bills now? I got it. Well, it's also the first time many cases people are experiencing significant stress, right? And whatever that might be, right? And at that point, that's where I knew it did. Mental Illness absolutely can become prevalent that was totally dormant and absent until 1718, years old, because now there's a stressor that reveals, hey, that's schizophrenia or schizo affected. That's bipolar, right? Because Mom and Dad aren't there to shield every step of the way anymore, right? The teachers aren't all aware of every detail of every diagnosis you have, so they can't, and now you're kind of Romania. So something comes up that opens up to different addictions or substance abuse in many cases, right? Whether they stay in that place or not, very different. But binge drinking is more often than not, a college or early military thing that Western culture, right? And then we get to the abuses. That's where it gets tricky, because there are predators among us that will look for people that are vulnerable and susceptible to that stuff, back to the Jim Jones and the Kool Aid and the Colts, right? There are people that look for that particular thing. There's also people that have a sense of adventure and spirit that are looking spirit that are looking for that experience. So let's not just put it on the cult as being this wickedly evil, devilish thing. There are people that need that in their life, for whatever the reason, because they have a sense of identity, a sense of belonging, the thing I wasn't getting when I was 14 in Wyoming or Iowa or Chicago, whatever, right? Well, now it's filled at the yellow Deli. I get to make sandwiches. I'm always fed. I get to go to a different yellow deli once in a while. Don't commit any heinous crimes, and then it all stays within the family, whatever deviant stuff we're doing. Wow, and I'm accepting of that stuff. Disability was the other one. So now that student comes home at 18, or that person gets chaptered out of the military because they had an episode, and they're like, Hey, you're diagnosed with this, this and this, now they're back home. Now their social expectation, ah, my kid didn't finish Harvard. My kid can't even go to community college. My kid can't even finish base. But the reality is, you're you're caught up in the outcomes about what your friends are going to say or see on social media. That kid might be struggling with significant behavioral health or mental illness, and that is a whole nother can of worms because of the things I said before somebody starts having delusions around you, or hallucinations like that's hard to be around. Somebody's manic and they're up here, or massive depression the next day, even though things are good, right? That's hard to be around. So now that adult and parent, their relationship has completely changed. And I would say, from the place of HR counseling and what I do for a living, it's things like that that come up in that critical transition phase between 18 and 25 everybody wants to have their 18 year old have a straight line. Hey, I'm going to do this, do that, and then I'm going to go work at Goldman Sachs, or I'm going to go to medical school, or I'm going to start a company and do this, this and this. And the reality is, what I find teaching undergrad anyway, that's maybe one or two students out of like, 30 I had today. They just know where they're going. They don't need Dr Ruiz. They don't they're going they're doing it. Then there's the other, like 10% that, like, just need a little influence and encouragement. The greater majority in the middle trying to figure out all the things you said, Who do I want to be? How do I want to be? Where be? But if they're dealing with mental illness or behavioral health issues, and there's new pressures and things are coming up to the surface. I was never anxious before. All of a sudden, now I'm anxious. Hey, I'm thinking things I never thought, Oh, I'm allowed to do things and engage in behaviors with people that I've never been allowed to talk to. Now, that's not common in New Jersey, but in the military, that happens a lot. There's people that never leave their neighborhood, and now all of a sudden, they're in the melting pot, that's a sample size of the United States of America, and they're around people that have money, that people that don't have money, and people everybody in between, and that can shock the system, right? So the last one I came up was a denial of funds and resources. Now, I think there's a way to be strategic and plan and all that. And I disclose something to you about no money for college. That's just my choice. Is my family. I think it's the best thing to do. Number one, college is expensive, and I see what my and I see what my undergrad students do. I'm not paying for that, right? But I will help with graduate school or medical school or law school if you want hate because that's the point where you really need the help. Like you're trying to crush these hard art programs in the United States of America, you might need to pad the stats with a little rent here, some groceries there, like I want to be part of that story or tuition, right? And that's just me, based on the research and what I know, what I do. Hey, you earn the right to get to that level than 100% and I would say financial and denial of funds and resources. Look here, here, point blank, period the end. And this is where I think we're gonna start shifting as a culture housing is expensive. Housing. Is expensive. Point zero is still zero, and 10% or 20% is still lit, and the FHA 3.5 whatever, however you want to get there, right, you still need capital to do it. I as apparently, through the lens of like, there's probably some things that I'm going to skip, as far as helping my children, but I think, I think maybe some shekels for the wedding. I'll pay for the photographer and pick up the bar tab. Just because I don't do that anymore and I want to pay one more bar tab, or maybe it's the second part. Is like, hey, I want to help you with that down payment for a house, because you're gonna need a house, right? And then, you know, hey, if you're leaving something to your children, you're blessed to do that humbly. I share with you all, man, I steal from Warren Buffett. I'm like, All right, how do I make it so that they are required to give 10% to a charity of their choosing? And here's the deal. Let's say you have five kids, one going to be devious and cunning and set up the not for profit and their name under their stuff, and they're just going to send the money to themselves, right? If you do it right, because you just kept asking questions, and they learned how to avoid taxes, not evade them, they're not going to go to prison, right? So I'm being funny and quick with it is, because then you're gonna have another kid that's like, I just want to give it all away to save the turtles. Yes, do that, right? Giving you examples of that's that, that's that, that's that succession planning and reverse engineering that us as parents, right? That that we don't want to think about how it's going to be when we're absent. We're like, oh, but, you know, and I looked through the lens right from the beginning, I think it was accelerated because of my experiences in combat, nearly four years of it, right? Highly Contested in battlefields, and then heroin addiction, man, the world is dangerous, but I think it's safer than it's ever been in many cases. And I think it doesn't have to be scary. And the things I'm firing at you is, how do you counter estrangement? Is, I think on the front end, you come from a place of interest and curiosity with your children. You're growing with them, and then it's looking in the mirror. It's it's really diving and looking in the mirror. Hey, am I doing a good job? Am I doing it with love? And if you can answer that, you don't have to, oh, you don't know anyone, anything. I that's what I tell my clients. I struggle with that when they have adult children that are moving. I was like, did you do it out of love? Yes, I got it wrong, though, yeah. But you started out of love, that's such a good place, like, like, like, you started from a really, really good place, and now it's in a different place, which means something you shared about a stranger, it's like, that means you're going into a new place, in a different place, there's no going back. There's just no going back. And I think forgiveness, like I said, about 2030, minutes. 2030, minutes ago, it's like, for a young person going through and they want to look at their parents about what, hey, they might not be ready for forgive. But to your point, Dr Spencer, and similar to myself with when I was trained for my father because of my own stuff, is it's like, man, like, it took a lot of forgiveness in the backside, and however short a period of time we did or didn't have on the back end, the courage to forgive on both ends. Was like, off. Like, that was so easy. Like, why didn't we do that? And he's, he was, my father's a smart guy here. I think, I think I'm relatively smart. He was like, but we couldn't, we couldn't just humble ourselves to be like, hey, hey, I'm sorry, dad. I You were doing the best you could given a certain situation, circumstance and conditions. I was a kid. I didn't see it, but I wouldn't have been able to tell you that at 25 that's what I would I would tell you. Humbly, I wouldn't have 25 years old been able to say that. And I think what you're talking about is that young man or woman, that's, they're about to do great, wonderful things, and they want to celebrate, but they're like, I don't want mom or dad at that. Like, I'm just and like, I think that's, that's a tricky space to be in. I don't have an answer for everybody, because in some cases, in those, those extreme cases, Yeah, mom and dad need, do not need an invite to that graduation. There's one thing, too, students I have like that, like, do not invite your parents. That thing. You've done this on your own by any measurement, right? But if you're on that fence where you're like, all right, but they really weren't helpful, but they were around or whatever, I think it's usually to our benefit to give the benefit of doubt and give a little grace and send that invitation, and then I'm speaking to my students too right now. They hit her,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 53:47

but yeah, with that said, a solution to now, and this is kind of maybe an isolated situation, but you the parent is desperate and feeling the pain of the child having been estranged for fire. I mean, they haven't spoken for maybe three years, or something like that. The mom try. Do you have any suggestions of how should the mom what the mom should do, or the mom should try to do? Or, you know, that. I know there are variables involved and all of it, yeah,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 54:24

well, the first part is, and this is going to be super, super boring and probably pretty lame. Never give up hope. It's good, because you're going to have to believe in miracles, yeah, and that's going to be a test of faith. And I would tell that person to do their own work, the sadness, the sense of loss and the grief that they're experiencing are all real. It's not their imagination. They're not crazy. And there's things you can do about that. For some people, it's going to the priest, the rabbi, the shaman, whoever right a counselor, therapist, doctor, but I think it's typically finding a neutral party. You. To express those things to is what I would tell anybody. I would tell anybody is, because the minute you get it off your chest and you put it out into the world, it's like this burden is gone. Of like, Oh, I'm sad because I don't see they don't reach back to me. And I love what I love what you got. It sounds like you got a world class life coach. It's like, yeah, just write a letter Dear such and such once a year and send it. And to Terry's point about the letters that were getting tossed out or ripped up or thrown out, thrown out, that that's not that man's fault. That man did what he was supposed to do, right? And then, you know, it's like, Well, does all the blame lay on mom for doing that? And dismiss I don't know. I think a letter is a super safe way to do it. Maybe it's once a year, and maybe it's not everything all at once. Maybe it is one page. Maybe you have to write a couple versions of the letter. By the third time you write it, you'll cut out the fluff, you'll narrow the focus, and you're like, all right, maybe they'll open this and read this. I think email doesn't work. I don't think text is the answer. I think that gets saturated, because we get what, I wake up to, 40 texts in the morning, sometimes, right, like, right? But a letter, wow, they took the time. Let me read this, right? And then one of two things is going to happen once that letter is received. They may not even open it, throw right in the trash. They might open it and then read it and throw it in the trash, but they might open it, read it, put in the black box, say, for a rainy day. Or they might open it right away and be ready, because you just caught them at the right moment when you threw the line in the water and be like, You know what? That's it. I'm gonna I haven't talked. I haven't talked to my kid. Hey, what are you doing? Dummy, nothing. What are you doing? Dummy, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to click. And then you reserve the right to call, if you're if you're not ready to say anything, you can call. And then you can hang up, like, if you hear mom or dad's voice and you don't like what you're hearing. You're hearing or vice versa. Like, yeah, you're still estranged. It changes nothing. Like you're still estranged. Hey, they went right back to their old behaviors. I wasn't ready to forgive it triggered me. It threw me off. It messed me up. I'm working on a big project. I got my own family. All true, I agree. But give your reserve the right to hang up the phone.

Unknown: 57:02

Wow. You reserve the right Interesting,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 57:04

yeah, the courage to make the call is something different. I get to have a client come back when they were ready, right appropriate time of doing the work to make that call or write that letter, to come back to me and say, like, Oh no, I don't feel more improved or better or more solid with my own stuff, in spite of whatever they've been shown or how they've been treated. I've yet to have a client tell me that they're not better served.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 57:25

You know, you brought up interesting and I wonder if you could address this sometimes, right? You know, we write the letter to expect a reaction or an action or a reaction from that person, and that's our that's what we wait for, kind of like when you send a text and you see those little three dots coming and go, Oh, they're going to respond back. I can't wait to see what had to say, right? But, but sometimes just writing the damn letter and leaving it sit there, man, is just you get your feelings out on paper. You organize it. It's just You say, Well, maybe I should have said this, or maybe, or maybe I need to express more love instead of blame, you know. And that letter, you know, put it out there without expectation,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 58:13

yeah, but that's the hard part, right? We're such a transactional and commodity driven society, right? Like everybody's a politician, everybody's a salesperson, right? Like we're all involved in this thing and the abstractions that we're talking about in terms like love and forgiveness and gratitude, all of those things take work, effort and energy, and that's actually where we build that magnificent, full, robust life, especially by the time a client is in session talking to a clinician or therapist or somebody about this stuff. Humans are smart creatures, right? They've worked over and manipulated it 45 times. So I would say low barrier to entry. Dr Spencer, write it down like this pen that says that's not my job on it, right? If you could see that, it's not my job, right? So that pen, right there costs all of what? $1 $2 and then it's a yellow pad. If I don't know, I'm a yellow pad guy, right? It's whatever you need it to be. And then you have, like, right? You start getting into it. You start practicing it. For me, it's been a long time of writing letters and, you know, trying to do things like that as much as possible, because it's healthy and it works better. You get better response. It takes a little longer, but I feel like the response they get back with her, and some people cold shoulder them, because that's where they're at. You where they're at. But I would say this by writing that letter you send out into the world, you know you have determined who the victim villains and heroes are going to be in the story in the future. And that's the part that's hard, is when we get caught up in the past and the things associated with it, those difficult topics we mentioned before, a lot of that is past stuff, and we're just going to stay stuck. The letter speaks to a future because it's an action item. It's something we did. Even if we're recollecting the past in that storyline, we can see it. Hey, what do I value here? How is it different? What am I grateful for here? Change. Yeah, what? And it might. I'm grateful for nothing, and that's where, that's where you need a professional pause. You to say, hey, Terry, guys, whoa, oh, they gave you life. Yeah, I understand. They abandoned you, they left you, they dismissed you, they abused you, neglect you do all the bad things, all the stuff we covered before they gave you life, would you agree or disagree? Client and the client has to go, Well, you know, they gave me love, but that's all they gave. There you go. I got a good deal. You got a good deal. Just don't know it. And that's interesting too, is that I find that I've worked with people that were abandoned, put up for foster care, nobody cared whatsoever. It's interesting, this is they have more trauma to overcome. In many cases, I'm making a generalization because of the nature of what their life experience was. They heal quicker in terms of forgiveness towards their parents, though, as opposed to the parent that was around and in and out and kind of around. It's because they have no mental model of whatever that might be or not be. They have they're not drawing from anything. They have no mental model in their mind to place context to what that is, because they didn't get the imprinting, essentially the vibration, frequency of their first images with whoever mom or dad were or are. It was a nurse in the hospital, it was the foster care lady, it was Child Services, it was social work. So they have zero and the closest models they might have, if they get lucky, is, you know, they get a good, fat foster home or adoptive parents or social worker or teacher, you know that they can get and that will form their model of like, the male model I have is a coach I had, like, that's the only dude. He was the dad, and he had his own kids, right? They do. Didn't even know that that dude wasn't treating them like a son, right? But it's, that's the best version they had. So they took it. And I go further, because this day and age, I'm like, Hey, we got the internet like, you could Google anybody. I guarantee there's people that get celebrated and cheered for on Fox and on Bloomberg. They're probably shit dads and moms. Then there's people that suck at business and they're phenomenal fathers. It's our responsibility to find people that are amazing at different things and get what we can from them and share and add value to the conversation. I think, I think that's a maturity thing. And I think to that young man or young woman, to your question, is thinking about, it's like, I think you got to write the letter humbly. Come from a place of humility, like, hey, like you were doing the best you could. I was 15, doing the best I could. I was scared. I didn't know, right? I think he got this this and this wrong, right? I think he got this this and right? I think you're great. I think you're wonderful, whatever it is, but the letter man, like I don't, I don't know if we could do any better than that. There's no amount of talk therapy that could get us there for that. And I think the last part I would share with anybody that listens to this, if they've made it this far, is like some things are cyclic. You could end up estranged again. There could be another election, somebody's health could change, right? Like, like, oh, like, like, Mom or Dad has a terminal illness, and now, like, I have to be the care well, I don't want to be the character we didn't plan for the caretaking. I don't know, right? Like, those things are the things that are just opportunities for people to reveal their true character and my estimation, my estimation. All right.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:03:05

Dr, Ruiz, I need to interrupt you, please, because I am going to close with the rapid fire questions, which I'm not sure if you're going to be able to rapid fire through these. I'll do my best. I'll do my best. All right, man, we got five of them if you're ready, please. All right, what would your friends say is the most important or most unique quality that you possess? Oh, I

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:03:30

have the recipe. That's why I live out the recipe. The hell no, I live, come on. I live out the recipe, right? And I stole it from somebody else, because it's that good. I would like them to say he took a few cups of love, he took one tablespoon of patience, one tablespoon of generosity, one pint of kindness. He took one quart of laughter, one piece of concern. Then he mixed in willingness and happiness. He added a lot of faith, and he stirred it up well. Then he spread it and expanded it over a lifetime, and he served each and every deserving person he met. Muhammad Ali, too easy.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:04:05

I'm speechless. That was the freaking best. I think I would have transcribed that last part. Dr, Terry, I'm moving on to number two, because that was outrageous. That's what it is. Thank you, man. I don't even know. All right, I gotta ask the other ones, but I don't even want to go on. All right. Question number two, what it what is something you and your wife do together, that that together to laugh, that make you laugh everything.

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:04:35

We're young people that were born in war and conflict, right? So everything we do, she was, she was in logistics and supply. My end, my last bullet was operations. So we add those together in our business, in our marriage, and we're both very fireable, right? Meaning this right, like, if not that, you know your physical health wellness is going to stay the same, right? But it's Hey, am I making decisions? Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, intellectually. Vocationally, socially and financially, have I considered the other person before I make the decision? We practice that it's fun. It's super, super fun, because we're always looking through the lens and filter of invasions, defensive positions, right? We just expanded our office. We have a new location that to us, is setting up an outpost in an enemy territory. Now there's no actual enemies there that we know of yet, but in our math to make it exciting and fun for us, yeah, talk about it as if we're building an outpost in enemy territory. Yeah, super fun.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:05:29

You're tremendous. I still got three other questions forever, please. If you could have any superpower to use during therapy sessions, what would it be? And why?

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:05:40

The ability to know people's intention, not read their mind that's dirty and gross and perverted. It's to read their understand their intentions, because people can do some terrible things and have good intentions. I've seen it firsthand. I've experienced it, right? I grew up in New Jersey. There's some people that are nefarious characters, but they're favorable to you. You just kind of deal with that, right? And whatever that means, right? So I say in the sense of this is, I just want to know people's intentions. Nice. That person has a bad reputation. They're a bad guy. They're involved in nefarious things. It's good to me and my brother.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:06:15

All right. Question number four, that was very interesting. Your answers are all right. Question number four, what's the most unexpected lesson you've learned from participating in an ultra endurance event?

Unknown: 1:06:33

Wow? Is defense speechless for a moment,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:06:36

until you're until, until you're required to cheer for yourself, you haven't even gotten into a good place yet.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:06:45

What a comeback, man. That's

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:06:47

that's like our 30 I'll share when right now my buddy, my buddy, briantosh, he's a, he's a Marine Corps veteran. An hour 30 of a 32 hour event is, I won't give too much of the inner workings of it. It's his stuff. But you roll a die, whatever the thing is for the hour, you do it essentially for an hour, right? And you do it for 32 hours, right? So hour 30 was the first time I rolled and then I didn't complete the task. I shot a zero. And, you know, hour 31 I had to start really, really cheering for Vince. There was nobody coming to do it. So, yeah, Ultra. Ultra teaches taught me that, I think, similar to the academic pursuit of a dissertation, because that's a lonely blade. That's just lonely. It's lonely, right? You have to cheer for yourself in that process.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:07:29

Vince, you're great man. Question number five, we're going to wrap this up. If your life were a movie, what would be the title of the sequel to move.

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:07:42

If my life was a movie, what would be the sequel? A book of matches and a gust of wind? Ironically,

Unknown: 1:07:51

because I write a lot, I think about

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:07:53

this stuff. I talk to a lot of people, and I'm interested in humans, like yourselves, like humans are the most fascinating creatures. Man, we're apex predators, right? So, so interesting enough. There was just 1000s, I think 10s of 1000s of acres burned in Ocean County. I'm pointing out this way to the Pine Barrens in southern New Jersey. I don't know if you saw in the news. Mean, it was big fire or whatever. Governor Murphy, super silent, naturally. And ultimately, we, we, we saw what happens dry forest, somebody's playing whatever fire, 1000s evacuations, things shut down, major highways closed, right? Thank goodness. I don't believe anybody was killed, right? But all that being stated is, uh, the sequel would be a book of matches and a gust of wind.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:08:35

I think Dr Terry knows that kind of story intimately,

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:08:42

yeah, because I remember when we chatted. It's the same thing. It's hard. I'm teaching grad school to my counseling kids. This is last week. This is last Tuesday night. This I drove up through the fire before they shut the highway, and I'm looking around and I'm like, Oh, this runs me a battle like this exactly reminds me of this battle. And like, I love battle, right? And so I'm all queued up for course, and I'm going to teach crisis and trauma to graduate level students, and we're sitting there and now we're in a crisis, and their homes are being evacuated. So like it was the ultimate Reckoning and opportunity to demonstrate to students that are learning in a in a crisis environment, hey, this is how it gets managed. Whatever we're talking about in this classroom is mildly interesting in the story or narrative. Your lives right now are much more important. So we need to go home. We need to get to get to where we need to go, or do whatever we need to do. So yeah, that that, that is it. Book of matches and Gus to win brother, because it's That's how quick it could change.

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:09:31

Dr Vince Ruiz, thank you for an outstanding show, man. I mean, it is so chock full of great information, not only for our listeners and viewers, but ourselves as well. Thank you so much.

Dr. Vince Ruiz: 1:09:47

Yeah, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Brother, Thanks, brother,

Dr. Spencer Baron: 1:09:54

thank you for listening to today's episode of The cracking backs podcast. We hope. You enjoyed it. Make sure you follow us on Instagram, at Kraken backs podcast. Catch new episodes every Monday. See you next time you.