Built Without Meat- Professional body builder, Torre Washington

What if one of the biggest beliefs in fitness is completely wrong?

For decades, athletes, coaches, and gym-goers have been told that building serious muscle requires meat, animal protein, and mountains of chicken breasts. But today's guest has spent nearly 30 years challenging that belief—and backing it up with results.

In this episode of Crackin' Backs, we sit down with IFBB Pro Bodybuilder, fitness coach, and lifelong vegan Torre Washington for a conversation that goes far beyond nutrition.

This isn't a vegan sales pitch.

This is an honest discussion about muscle growth, protein quality, performance, recovery, longevity, discipline, and whether vegan bodybuilding is truly optimal—or simply possible for the right person.

We tackle the questions everyone is asking:

• Can you build elite muscle without eating meat?
• Is plant protein enough for maximum hypertrophy?
• Are vegan athletes at a disadvantage?
• Who thrives on a vegan diet—and who may struggle?
• What does the science really say about protein, leucine, and bioavailability?
• Is success driven by diet, or by relentless discipline?

Whether you're a bodybuilder, athlete, healthcare professional, weekend warrior, or simply curious about human performance, this conversation will challenge assumptions and force you to rethink what fuels strength.

About Torre Washington

Torre Washington is one of the most recognized vegan bodybuilders in the world. An IFBB Pro Men's Physique athlete, NASM-certified coach, engineer, and longtime advocate for plant-based performance, Torre has followed a vegan lifestyle since 1998 while building a championship-level physique that has challenged fitness industry stereotypes for decades. He is widely known for combining scientific thinking, individualized coaching, and real-world experience to help athletes optimize their physiques without relying on animal products.

In This Episode You'll Learn:

 The truth about protein and muscle growth

The biggest mistakes plant-based athletes make

How Torre structures his nutrition for bulking and cutting

Whether veganism is right for everyone

What biomarkers every athlete should monitor

The difference between ideology and evidence

Why discipline may matter more than diet

If you've ever wondered whether muscle is built in the kitchen, the gym, or the mind—this episode is for you.

CONNECT WITH TORRE WASHINGTON

Instagram:
@torre.washington

Website:
Engineered By Torre

Facebook:
Torre Washington Official

Subscribe to Crackin' Backs Podcast for weekly conversations with world-class experts in physical health, mental resilience, nutrition, longevity, human performance, and the science of living better.

We are two sports chiropractors, seeking knowledge from some of the best resources in the world of health. From our perspective, health is more than just “Crackin Backs” but a deep dive into physical, mental, and nutritional well-being philosophies.

 Join us as we talk to some of the greatest minds and discover some of the most incredible gems you can use to maintain a higher level of health. Crackin Backs Podcast

Transcript

Dr. Spencer Baron (00:01.388)
Well, today's guest may challenge one of the most sacred beliefs in strength culture that you need meat to build real muscle. Now, Tory Washington has spent decades proving that plants can actually fuel an elite physique. But this conversation is not a vegan commercial. We're going to ask the hard questions. Is vegan bodybuilding truly optimal? Is it

Torre Washington (00:02.423)
Thanks.

Dr. Spencer Baron (00:26.899)
P just possible and who should absolutely not do it without guidance? Welcome to the show, Tori Washington.

Torre Washington (00:36.191)
Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate this opportunity and look forward to it.

Dr. Spencer Baron (00:41.4)
Well, let's start by you know, I I know there's countless times when you're in the gym or walking with that freaking buff body when someone looks at your your physique and says, Man, there ain't no way that body was built without meat. What do you what do they misunderstand about this whole thing? Tell us.

Torre Washington (01:01.067)
You know, I gotta say actually what they say is there's no way you did that without steroids.

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:08.962)
R That was the other question.

Dr Terry (01:11.522)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (01:12.956)
And you know, cause it's not like I walk around with vegan on my t-shirt all the time. So most of the time it's the steroids. But then when I go into, well, I don't eat meat. They're baffled even by more. And then it goes from, wait, you don't eat any animals? Like no fish, no eggs? Like, no, they're like, you gotta be using something, man. There's no way. And I'm like, hey, I've been doing this for over 30 years. So it must be something to it.

Dr Terry (01:43.702)
Mm.

Dr. Spencer Baron (01:43.97)
Was it always like that though?

Torre Washington (01:46.004)
Yeah, I was raised vegetarian. So my mom raised me vegetarian. She was a seven day Adventist. And the lifestyle of a seven day Adventist is to follow the health regimen that was provided by in the Bible, which is what they ate in the Garden of Eden, where they had, quote unquote, dominion of animals, but they weren't told to eat animals. It was just eat all the fruit of the trees and of the land. And so that's how they pretty much lived their life.

That's how I was raised. And so I was raised within that culture. you know, it was simple transition for me to go to make sure that there were no eggs or milk in my food. And that that was the next transition.

Dr. Spencer Baron (02:28.994)
Wow, that's big time. Now, there was a guy back in the eighties who was a lacto, ovo, vegetarian or not or whatever he was, you know, and it's Andreas Calling. But they s right, remember? But they still ha he still had meat products, not meat. So that was the closest ever to someone in the Olympic. You, my man.

Torre Washington (02:39.152)
I've heard of him.

Dr. Spencer Baron (02:51.05)
have a very interesting you know segue into this whole process and that was now you've been bodybuilding for the longest time. you got this veganism thing going on, but you know, what tell us about your your health and this whole identity. What what drove you into bodybuilding since being a vegetarian was was first and foremost?

Torre Washington (03:14.291)
Well, my whole bodybuilding journey came about, think it was more so out of a way for me to kind of become the person that I kind of wanted to be in a sense, because I was, when I left Alabama, I moved to Jamaica. was born in Alabama. So was born in Alabama, but then I moved to Jamaica. When I moved to Jamaica,

Not even knowing that I had an accent or how I sounded when I moved to Jamaica, you know, I got picked on. Me and my brother got picked on. So we got picked on in school and I had no way to defend myself. So I just kind of kept my anger in and my only outlet was cartoons, you know, watching Wolverine and Superman and, you know, the Transformers. And then I got into Arnold Schwarzenegger.

and seeing his movies and seeing his physique, Conan Barbarian, Commando, and all of these things, I actually started looking into his background and I saw where he did bodybuilding. And I saw how I was able to create those physiques that I emulated or wanted to emulate because I figured these guys, the superheroes are so strong that people won't, you know, won't mess with them. You know what I mean? And so I said, all right.

That's what I'm gonna do. I just started doing whatever I could. In Jamaica, my granddad was a electrician. He had an iron block he used for soldering. And so I used to curl that little soldering iron of like 10 pounds, started doing some crunches and little pushups here and there in Jamaica. And then when I moved from Jamaica back to the United States, I lived in South Florida.

And when I got to South Florida, I was picked on again because now I sounded like an island kid in there. People were like, oh, you need to go back to the banana boat, man. Go on your banana boat. And I was like, what? I was like, all right. So I just started really getting into, I asked my mom to purchase me a bodybuilding set. And she got a cheap weight bench and one dumbbell. And I used that one dumbbell and did one arm presses, one arm curls.

Torre Washington (05:29.044)
Do everything I could with that one dumbbell until I could get a membership at Gold's Gym, the iconic Gold's Gym on 44th Street and University. And started working out there and I worked out there and I worked out in high school. Once I got to high school, you know they had gym class. So I did all of that and I started going to bodybuilding competitions and never really competed but I just was reading the magazines. I was studying up on bodybuilding hardcore because I just, I...

I really, those were my superheroes. were my father figure. My father had left when I was five too, so I didn't have that. was just all single parent and only for when I was with my grandparents that I have double parents.

Dr. Spencer Baron (06:10.478)
That's that's good. A lot of us that's kinda how it started. Getting you get picked on, you toughen up and you think I remember having on the back of a do you remember comic books? On the back of a comic book was Charles Atlas and you could you could send

Torre Washington (06:25.424)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (06:28.408)
That was my first training my my training program was Charles Atlas, you know, 'cause the guy got sand kicked in his face on the beach and the other guy was bigger, so we decided to get bigger. I love that story. That's great, but you don't look like you're from Alabama, but okay, that's that's fair enough. Right, right? Yeah. Yeah Yeah. I don't know, man. That's like the

Dr Terry (06:47.361)
I I yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I go, I don't see the Alabama. I see the I see the Rosty from Jamaica, but I don't see the Alabama. And and you know what c hey, can you do the rest of the interview in that in that Jamaican accent? 'Cause that was frickin' beautiful. When when you said banana boat, I'm like, I could listen to that all day.

Torre Washington (06:54.77)
You

Dr. Spencer Baron (07:02.242)
Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (07:07.64)
Right

Torre Washington (07:09.347)
You know, I remember when I started doing it, the girls would be like, wait, you sound like that? You need to talk like that all the time. was like, oh, that's how you get them. Okay.

Dr. Spencer Baron (07:17.709)
Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (07:24.174)
That's great, man.

Dr Terry (07:25.341)
It's so funny, a guy I surf with out here, born and raised in Jamaica, but he's a white guy. But his his I think his either his f father or mother are black

But he must have imp imported all the the white roots 'cause he looks like just a white guy from Southern California. But he's born and raised in Jamaica. So he s speaks the the the native language. So he'll be walking down in places where and they'll start speaking to them in in Padwan. Is Pawan?

Torre Washington (07:43.442)
Hmm.

Dr. Spencer Baron (07:47.758)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (07:55.443)
Patois, Patois.

Dr Terry (07:55.916)
Pacquam, they'll start speaking to him. He'll hear that in the background and they're just giving the the guy shit and he just turns on him and speaks it and comes after him and he was born in the streets of Jamaica and they look at him like there's no way a and a and then when but when he turns on that Jamaican accent, my god, it's hilarious. But yeah, he's he's a and he can do and he's speak and we'll go down to restaurants now that are Jamaican and he'll walk back to the cook and start speaking with them and all of a sudden the food comes out different.

And we get better we get better food. It's phenomenal.

Torre Washington (08:26.36)
hahahahah

Dr. Spencer Baron (08:27.022)
Hey Tori, let me ask you, when when you you started in a gym and when people you know said that you wanted to build this pro level physique, did you always have you know, did you always have this vision of being on stage and and bodybuilding?

Torre Washington (08:45.81)
You know, so I think when I started to read the magazines and go into the shows, I was inspired by them. And I said, yeah, I definitely want to compete. But I got into doing track and field in high school around my junior year. And I started, you know, hanging out with the people that go out a lot. So, you know, I was doing a lot of partying and, you know, starting to get noticed because I was one of those

You know, since I was already picked on, I started hanging with a crowd when I was younger that were the Marilyn Manson crowd. You remember Marilyn Manson? Yeah, so, yeah. So I listened to Marilyn Manson. had, I was in the headbanger crowd. I was a, I was a white boy. I hung out with all the white boys with long hair. We played guitars, the, wore the, wore the boots and the tight jeans and the, you know, I didn't know how to, I didn't know, I didn't know.

Dr. Spencer Baron (09:25.644)
Yeah. I listen to Marilyn Man. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (09:32.706)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (09:42.54)
Makeup? Come on. No makeup?

Torre Washington (09:46.197)
I was more the thrasher. I was more the Metallica Megadeth kind of guy. The Iron Maiden. Yeah, I was into the Anthrax and all of that and D.R.I. Yeah, man. Testament. You name it. But I couldn't go to the concerts because I get beat up. Because back then, Skinheads was huge. Skinheads and the whole thing. I was like, man, if I go...

Dr. Spencer Baron (09:51.205)
there we go. All right.

Dr Terry (09:51.893)
There you go.

I love them. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (10:02.316)
No? No.

Torre Washington (10:12.274)
these kids ain't gonna protect me. know, this was some be me fighting all these skinheads. So I couldn't go and yeah, I couldn't go to join the Mosh Pits and do all that stuff because I knew what would happen if I went. It'd been like, you'd be like, well, why am I keep getting hit? Like, I don't understand. So, so I didn't do that. So I, I just worked out and hung out with these kids and went to see movies. And, and, you know, I really was kind of a loner in a sense. And once I started,

Dr. Spencer Baron (10:16.93)
No mosh pit.

Dr. Spencer Baron (10:23.186)
yeah, you'd be thrown back at

Torre Washington (10:41.905)
running track and then I started playing American football. American football is where I injured my knee and I didn't know what I did to it but I just knew that it it felt like something was really bad. I went to the hospital all they did was do an x-ray and said oh you just pulled a tendon and I was like oh okay you know but turned out years later that it was my ACL had tore it and it healed improperly but then I eventually got the surgery done in 2010 so

Throughout this time, I had always wanted to bodybuild. And one of my friends in middle school, he actually dropped out to bodybuild. And I don't know if to this day where he is, I tend to look him up because they used to call us Sean Ray and Lou Ferrigno back in the day because of the difference, the way we look. I had a little flat top like Sean Ray and he looked like Lou Ferrigno. But, you know, I never competed until I got out of college.

And I started working in corporate America as an engineer. And one of my friends said, one of our closest friends was competing in Georgia. And I was living in Alabama at the time. And I went to see his bodybuilding show. And man, I tell you, when I saw him on stage, it really inspired me to say, you know what? I don't want to go to the end of my life and say, I wish I did or would have or should have. And I said, I need to at least do it once because I've always wanted to do it.

let me go do it once. And I talked to him and I said, hey man, cause he looked like the action figures, the superheroes. Cause I thought I looked good. Cause you know, I was an avid gym goer, but seeing that definition up close and the shape and the muscles and the abs, I was like, what? man. Okay. I want to look like that. And I told him, I said, I want to compete. He said, but you're vegan. I was like, no, okay.

I didn't think that had anything, but no one thought being vegan could help you get there. And so we started doing it and I did my first show 2009 in April and got third place.

Dr. Spencer Baron (12:51.404)
Nice. Okay, everybody's at I mean, I'm sure everybody's gonna be asking, asking me, you know, yelling it at their phones or their YouTube about this. Where where does where does your protein come actually come from? And it's always said that vegans are lacking certain amino acids. I mean, g can you tell us what's going on here?

Torre Washington (13:15.664)
You know, I always thought that was crazy because I think at one point it was not such a big deal. It had finally got to that point where I felt like, all right, we made a breakthrough. No one's asking that question anymore because I think around 2017, 2018, that movie, What the Help came out. I don't remember that documentary. Everybody went vegan after that. It was like, oh, OK. And I was like, oh, all right, we made some breakthrough. But now it's back.

Dr. Spencer Baron (13:33.368)
Yeah. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Torre Washington (13:43.407)
And I'm getting that question again, like, where do you get your protein? How do you get enough protein? And the funny part about it, Doc, is even when I started, I didn't even think about protein. I was just eating food, making sure I was just eating enough. And then when I wanted to get lean, I ate less. And I didn't track my protein amount. And then when I looked back at it, my protein amount was between 50 to 100 grams a day. And I was still, I was winning shows.

looking good, I have good genetics, have an elite structure which helps me, but I also have a great work ethic when it comes to training. I'm very much focused on performance and efficient movement and preventing injury. That was my thing. And so once I decided to hire a coach because I wanted to get to an even higher level, and do a higher level meaning I wanted to see if I could...

compete within the organization that Arnold Schwarzenegger competed in and all the top bodybuilders, the IFBB Pro League. And so, you know, so you had to go to the MPC and I got into the MPC and started winning shows there. And I was like, well, okay, I guess I can do it here too. And hired a coach 2017, 18 and his protocol changed to where he wanted me to increase my protein amount to inhibit or prohibit.

muscle loss as we go on a caloric deficit to get on stage to look more full and shredded. Right. I was always shredded. And he, I remember him telling me, said, I always saw you at these shows looking fantastic. He said, just imagine. was always imagining Tori as if he carved up and got more full, he would just be killing it. That's what he said to me, but I was still doing well killing shows. And so how I increased it, I just

get my protein, because I was getting my protein from what was around at that time was tofu. I've eaten tofu pretty much all my life. My mom raised us on, like I said, the vegetarian, we had soy from the beginning. And so it was not nothing new to me. It was just making tofu differently. And I didn't really do shakes as much. I do shakes more now, but back then I didn't. I did more tofu and.

Torre Washington (16:02.254)
and tofu products, soy products, because those are the most popular things that was available at the time for vegans and vegetarians. And beans, but beans of course, they have protein, but they're more heavier on the carbohydrate end. And once I started to track for my competitions, I stuck to your tofu and your tempeh, and I stuck to, then I started finding about seitan, which is vital wheat gluten, which is very, very high in protein. And those are the things that I...

started with and then now you have a new type of tofu which is a soy free tofu for those who are scared of soy. It's called fava bean tofu which is just protein there's no carbs there's no fat it's just has a tofu texture but there's not necessarily it means it's not soy so and that's one of my favorite ones to go to as well

Dr. Spencer Baron (16:53.304)
Tori, what is a typical you're not well, when you're not training for a competition, like most listeners and viewers, what is a typical day of eating look like, breakfast, lunch and dinner?

Torre Washington (17:07.426)
You know, I will say this, I'm not typical when it comes to doing anything. You know, I've always kind of, I've always kind of prided myself on being different, you know, and that's, you know, even from the music that I listen to, to how I dress and how I look and how I deal with things. I get this question a lot and, know, like, I'll say, like for example, for today's like, or even yesterday, yesterday I had seitan chunks, which is kind of a meaty texture.

And I had two servings of that which gets about 32 grams of protein. Then I had this, one of my clients makes these buns that are, she makes them from fava bean tofu and seitan. She makes it together. And they're like, they look like biscuits, but they're a little bit more dense. So one of those has 46 grams of protein. So I have that, I had the chunks, I had some almond butter slab on top of it with some organic maple syrup and a protein shake.

Dr Terry (18:00.074)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (18:03.277)
So within two hours I had 142 grams of protein and that's almost in one meal. That could be breakfast. But what happens Spencer, I'm not competing but when I'm in competition, I am competing, but when I'm in competition mode, I tend to go to sleep hungry and wake up ready to eat. And so I'll eat so much in the first meal that my next two, three meals are not as heavy but.

Dr. Spencer Baron (18:04.554)
Starving now.

Torre Washington (18:31.852)
just because I wanted to get my protein started off on a high note. Because for the day now, my protein is about 185 grams. And so.

Dr. Spencer Baron (18:40.462)
Okay, that is excellent. The idea of going to bed hungry, which most people don't, most of America goes to bed because their biggest meal of the day is dinner, right? So how many hours do you when do you stop eating and when do you go to bed? And how many hours do you sleep?

Torre Washington (18:49.196)
stuffed.

Torre Washington (19:00.173)
So I know especially now when it's really crucial, I'm 16 weeks out from the Miss Olympia. Sleep is so important and my goal is eight hours. I'm average about seven, but my goal is to get seven to nine. And I usually like to finish eating six or eight p.m. That way I have a lot more time prior to actually laying down to have a better recovery.

and sleep during the night because I know if I sleep after I've eaten kind of late, sleep is different. It's definitely, it's weird how it's different. And I like to be in bed no later than 10.30. 9.30 is my best opportunity to do it because I typically have clients in the morning around 6.15 but that's changed a lot during the summer. But those are my typical times to finish. And then like I said, that breakfast I told you about,

My lunch may be a shake or my lunch may be a serving of veggies with Japanese sweet potato and some seitan chunks or some tofu. And then dinner would be kind of similar. And like I said, I like to keep the protein high so that I can enjoy my carbs more around my workout timing before or after my workout.

Dr. Spencer Baron (20:19.682)
When do you work out?

Torre Washington (20:21.439)
So my workouts typically come in around usually this time of day till about 3 p.m. So that's usually the window of my workout schedule because that's typically the break I have between clients. I have clients in the morning and then clients in the evening.

Dr Terry (20:39.401)
Mm. You know what?

Dr. Spencer Baron (20:40.142)
Good. Good, Terry, sorry.

Dr Terry (20:42.087)
You you brought up a lot of stuff and one of was the when the documentary came out, everybody wanted to jump on the vegan wagon and then I mean, you've been a vegan for your whole life and so what do you see when people hear like this show or hear this, where do you see the biggest mistakes that vegans make when they first jump in to try and gain muscle, you know, a and to get the calories and and all that? Are they eating too much processed food? Are they not enough strength training? If they wanna gain weight, what are the mistakes?

Dr. Spencer Baron (20:50.04)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (21:14.796)
Well, I'll say this, you said a couple things there that I think causes people to, there's a lot of misconceptions, right, when it comes to the lifestyle. And one of them is most people love labels because labels kind of put things in a box and now you can like, oh, they're supposed to do it this way. I hate labels, but I understand that you got to use them in order to get 85 % of the population to understand what's going on. So when,

For example, I work with Chris Hemsworth who plays Thor in the Avengers. And I remember we were talking about him being vegan for Thor Ragnarok. And he said, man, I was bloated all the time. I couldn't really get my stomach down. I basically was saying to him, the one thing about society is if someone tells you that this is the way it's supposed to be or this is way it's not supposed to be, and if it trends, people follow it versus how their body responds.

He decided to jump in and do it, you know, get whole foods, all the veggies and the beans and things like that. Because one thing you said, Dr. Terry, is a lot of times people say, it's process, process, process. Everything that we do, we breathe is process. You're breathing process air right now and sitting inside an office. You know, you're not outside. It's all process outside as well because we have an environment that has...

many different manufacturers around the world pumping out different gases into the oxygen. So you have clothing that's been processed, it's processed and put on you, you wear it on top of your skin. The oils, the lotions, the sunscreens, process, process, process. And then we say, man, that's too processed food, don't do that. Tofu is literally...

Edamame crushed with calcium carbonate to be coagulated and pressed into firm blocks. Okay. A lot of times people look at that and they're that's a processed food. Or they look at the garden that someone takes a texturized soy protein, makes it look similar to chicken, breads it, fry it in some oil, put it back in the freezer and then you buy it. It's convenient. And people say, that's a lot of process.

Torre Washington (23:33.054)
But the slab of beef you get gets injected, put over there, hung up, they put some red dye on it, slap a label on it, wrap it up, it's processed. Minimally processed, as they say, but it's still processed. So I think the scary part is, or the misconceptions is, everything you do in vegan in order to put on muscle, you have to eat all this processed foods. Everybody else is too. And so...

The other part is you have to take all these supplements. The only supplements I consume are creatine and protein and an herbal hormone optimizer, which is just to kind of balance my hormones because I'm older and keeping the cortisol level lower and things like that. So I think the mistakes that most people make is they jump in with this complex idea of the lifestyle when it's really just most people eat meat, veggies, starch.

Dr. Spencer Baron (24:15.01)
Ha ha.

Torre Washington (24:32.266)
Let's say for example, and if you're not gonna have meat, you still have the starches and you have your veggies. The other part is, like I saw a video one of my friends made that she says peanut butter is not a source of protein. And her reason for saying that was because peanut butter has six grams of protein, 17 grams of fat, eight grams of carbs. It's a source of fat. It's a source of all three. It just so happens that fat is the higher number.

When it comes to protein intake, everybody has a different number that they need based on what they're doing. Me as an elite bodybuilding athlete, my goal is to build, recover muscle as much as possible and maximize fat loss. Whereas someone else may need much more energy, much more fat within their lifestyle in order to run a marathon per se or to do a high rocks or to do some crossfit or things of that nature. They have a different requirement.

Cause I'm not expending energy through an hour activity. I'm just on stage basically modeling for some judges downstairs with some oil on me. So they can say, Hey, he looks good. We don't know if he's active or he can, he can jump, but he looks good. You know, so it's a different, it's a different thing altogether. And I think people make those mistakes based on so what someone else is

Dr Terry (25:46.219)
Ha ha ha.

Torre Washington (25:57.438)
someone else's opinions or someone else's experience versus having an experience of their own. so that's why I always tell people that you can't say that it'll happen to you the same way it happens to me. Like, you can eat whatever I eat. You may not have the same results. You might have to do it differently. And I think this is makes a lot of people that I know, they can...

fly with me because they know I'm not gonna judge them on what they're doing. I'm gonna give them suggestions, but you have to see what works for your body versus what someone else is telling you to do because they don't know. You're the one and only Dr. Terry, you're the one and only Dr. Spencer Barron. There's no one else like you. Even if they clone you, there's no one else like you. You know what mean? So you just have to see what truly works for you.

Dr Terry (26:51.423)
You know, Spencer, I love the way this guy is articulating everything and explaining things. That's my gosh, it's you're s you're so you're so articulate in how you explain things, but you mentioned something w when you were talking to Chris Hemsworth about that everybody's not put in a box, right? And you hate that. So when people are watching this, do you think vegetarian or vegan is good for everyone?

Dr. Spencer Baron (26:56.366)
Agreed.

Torre Washington (27:15.177)
Yeah, that's a good question. Because I will say this, I know a lot of times people go into the lifestyle for these specific main reasons, health, environment, and for the animals. And when I realized that I'm a quote unquote vegan, I didn't really do that based on any of those. It was more out of the integrity of a lifestyle that I chose. So I chose to become Rasta.

Rastafari is the Aytal lifestyle where everything vital is Aytal and you know, it's all about living off the land like the Rastaman them in the jungles of Jamaica. They kind of just, they live and you know, eat from the earth. And so I was like, well, if I'm going to call myself a Rasta, I don't want to see myself eating chicken and fish and eggs and those kinds of things. And so I was like, I'm going to make sure that I eat all Aytal food from the earth, fruits, veggies.

And then later on in life, somebody was like, oh, you sound like a vegan. I was like, what is vegan? And that's when I realized the food eating method, but I never understood how vegan entail what you wear, animal rights, this, that, and the other. I can say that, do I think it's for everybody? Because no, I feel like you have to make the decision based on

what experience and what help is to your body. It's crazy to feel like people want to tell you, everybody has to be blah, blah, blah. But I think one of my goals are is to have people look at it not as this extreme way of doing things because now we have so many extremes. Vegan got popular and then next thing you know, carnivore got popular. And now it's like, wait, do I do carnivore or do I do a mix of both?

You know, so it's just having people just so confused, they don't know what to do. You know, so I will say Dr. Terry, I don't think it's for everyone.

Dr Terry (29:19.425)
So you you mentioned something, you you you're born v vegetarian because of your your the faith that you were born into. And then you went to Jamaica and you dis de you discovered Rasta, which had a very similar background. So where does your vegan come from? From Seventh Day Avenue or from Rasta or a combination of both?

Torre Washington (29:41.21)
think a combination of both, but it more came out of Rasta. Because I also got to say that I wasn't too fascinated with the religious aspect of either. When it came to the Seventh Day Adventist aspect, once I questioned the religious aspect a lot, but I identified with the nutritional aspect. And then when it came to Rasta, it started out religious because some people use religion in an order.

in order for them to be given some leeway with certain things. Like you could say, it's my religious belief for me to do such and such. And I'm like, okay, well, we can't attack your religion. But for me, it was more of a lifestyle. And so the lifestyle on their nutritional habits, because Rasta, anyone can say that in Rasta, don't grow some locks, smoke some ganja, listen to some reggae, and say, Ja Rastafari, Selassie.

he's Rasta. No, but that's how it is. So my vegan lifestyle came more out of the Rasta because Rasta kind of leans really more into the peace and love and oneness with all and with our nutrition as well. the vegans take it even further with the whole animal rights.

you know, where Rasta really didn't really, because in Jamaica, animals was treated like, you know, not like, hey, come sleep in a bed with me. You know, that's not how Jamaicans saw animals. And then if you look back at slavery, the animals were treated better than the human, than the slaves, you know. And so slaves are not gonna be like, well, I'm not gonna fight for this animal, but nobody fought for me. You know what I mean? And so that's where a lot of,

Dr. Spencer Baron (31:20.792)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (31:37.659)
things kind of part ways, but for me, the lifestyle came more because of the Rastafari side.

Dr Terry (31:46.624)
You can't say you can't you can't talk about your roster pals without going to the accent, can ya? I mean your life speaks two languages and you just went boom boom boom boom boom That's so awesome.

Torre Washington (31:51.822)
I mean,

Dr. Spencer Baron (31:51.828)
It is hilarious. Yeah, did you notice that? I love that.

Dr. Spencer Baron (32:03.758)
He starts out sounding like a guy from Alabama and then all of a sud Yeah. Yeah, the moment he started the the word Rasta, his dialect changed. That was great. man, I'm glad he's not from China or anything. He would start breaking out very good, very good. Anyway

Dr Terry (32:07.873)
And and then he's South Florida and then he's Jamaica and it's all the same person.

It's just wet. Right, it totally.

Torre Washington (32:25.766)
Wow man. I speak Japanese too.

Dr Terry (32:25.809)
Ha ha ha.

Dr. Spencer Baron (32:35.5)
Right on. that's so funny, man. All right, so let me that was great. All right, so let me ask you about things that you do track. such as, you know, there's calories, macros, blood work, digestion, recoveries, you know, sleep, inflammation, things like that. What what based on you as a competitor or someone so conscientious about health and wellness

What do you what do you track? what do you bother tracking? What would you like to track?

Torre Washington (33:06.437)
So I really hadn't gotten into tracking things like that. I just only tracked my macros. But the other day I was like, I wonder what my testosterone is. I would love to know because here I am still building muscle at the age of people like, how are you still growing? And wait, you're not eating any meat. So I don't understand. So I was like, yeah, let me check.

Dr. Spencer Baron (33:09.816)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Spencer Baron (33:15.522)
Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (33:29.645)
Mm-hmm.

Torre Washington (33:35.941)
So I checked that it was like six something. And I was like, huh, I was thinking it was gonna be higher. I was hoping it would be higher, but you know, because I'm, hear that it has to be in the thousands in order for you to really grow, you know, to really get big. Cause you know, lot of the guys that I know that are taking, you know, steroids, they're, because they've taken steroids, they're like at 1700, you know, they're way up there, you know, and the muscle protein synthesis is out the roof.

Dr. Spencer Baron (33:39.054)
Good.

Torre Washington (34:03.526)
but they're also losing their hair and acting crazy. you're like, you're right, I can do that. And then when they come off of it, it's like, Oh, so it was that. I was wondering why you acting like that. But anyways, and so then I, I had that checked and everything else. were, they were like, Oh, everything is good. The only thing I was high is your phosphorus, which is, I think they said is normal because of the amount of greens you consume, you know, so.

Dr. Spencer Baron (34:16.13)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (34:33.007)
And I was like, all right. And so then I did it again for a second time and my testosterone increased. And I was like, that's good. That's good to see. And know, everything else was great. So I've been thinking of doing it again, you know, just to see and get probably be more checked out, you know, just to see. But, you know, I'm not really, I never really took the liberty to really pay attention to that so much because I was just like knowing how I felt versus looking at a number when I know

It's just a snapshot at that moment and it probably could change tomorrow. You know, so it was just kind of interesting to see it, but I do, I'm glad I kind of have done it because I still get the accusations and I've been waiting for an opportunity to really share it. Like I can't be taking drugs, having testosterone at six something, you know, you guys, would be, I should be way up there because they assume that I have to be on TRT or something because

Dr. Spencer Baron (35:24.205)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (35:33.153)
of my age and the type of food I eat.

Dr Terry (35:36.302)
I w I'm repr how old yeah, I'll just say how old are you? Yeah. No shit. All right, so I I was on your Instagram yesterday and I'm like you're at the l biggest stages of the world. You're competing in the Earl Classics, Mr. Universe. I you're at the biggest stages and you're fifty two? I mean, what is the closest age to you that that you compete with? I mean, it's gotta be in the what, thirties? 'Cause it takes a long time to get to your level, but

Dr. Spencer Baron (35:36.782)
How w how old Yeah.

Torre Washington (35:41.39)
So I'll be 52 in August.

Dr. Spencer Baron (35:43.416)
No shit.

Torre Washington (36:02.468)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll say, yeah, no, man. I remember I did a show, a podcast. Was it a podcast? Yeah, it was like a podcast type of event where they were like natural versus unnatural. And when I walked on to the set, the natural guys were like, you're natural? I was like, yeah. They were like, damn, I need to do something different.

Dr Terry (36:04.947)
You're fifty Fuck.

Dr. Spencer Baron (36:27.02)
Ha ha.

Torre Washington (36:32.42)
And then the guy that were not natural, one of them was 57, but he didn't know my age. And he was saying that he was taken because of, know, naturally getting older, he feels like he needed to take something. Then when I said my age, he was like...

I guess I can't have that argument anymore because I'm thinking age and you're younger than me but still in your 50s and you don't look like and he didn't I was like, what are you taking? Because you guys look, y'all don't look bigger than me at all. know, we're not even more different. The only guy that really looked like he was taking drugs was a competitive bodybuilder. And everybody else was just like.

Dr. Spencer Baron (36:52.29)
Ha ha

Torre Washington (37:17.379)
I might as just say you're natural because I would hate to know you're using and you look like that. But for the most part, Dr. Terry, yeah, I think most guys are 32, 25 years old on stage with me.

Dr Terry (37:32.427)
Do you ever when they find out how old and when you beat them and they find out how old you are, do they are they are they disappointed because you're the young buck or are they in awe?

Torre Washington (37:43.491)
They're in awe, but I know somewhere they're what the? Deep down they're kinda looking at it. And then the fact that I'm natural, I know it's even more so like, wow, this guy's natural, older than me, and he just beat me.

Dr Terry (38:00.128)
So are you competing, this is Spencer's world, not mine. Are you competing as as natural, are you competing against guys that take steroids? So you are. Th there's no definition, there is no division for natural versus synthetic. So you're you're beating almost everybody that's probably taking something and you're natural vegan fifty two and you're kicking their ass.

Torre Washington (38:20.748)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (38:26.275)
Yeah.

Dr Terry (38:26.933)
That's so frickin' awesome. Sorry, Spencer, go ahead. I that's just so frickin' awesome.

Dr. Spencer Baron (38:28.768)
Isn't that tremendous?

No, I was gonna I was gonna in retrospect I was gonna mention this is also for the audience. We ha we had a couple of females that are talking about women's health and it was interesting. One of them was a real advocate for the aura ring that everybody's wearing and getting tracking all their their

Everything, you know, heart rate variability and all the things that you probably don't even bother with. But you know, they did make a comment and I commend you on your ability to have a perception of what is going on in your system, whether it's good or bad, you have that instinct that everybody's been, you know, checking their their you know what they are tr whatever they're tracking and they're losing that sense of feeling whether they're

Right or wrong. They can look, they have to look at their phone and go, I slept well last night, or I slept like shit last night, not realizing maybe you did sleep well, but it's you're looking at something that's taking the place of instinct, you know, what you feel. That's one. Two is just for again for the listening audience, your testosterone levels. It's I I've been explaining to patients when you do a blood draw, it's a snapshot of that day, that moment, the

Torre Washington (39:26.498)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Spencer Baron (39:51.423)
that time. Whereas for those out there that are curious, and this may be why you you know, where our testosterone, men and women, are they fluctuate throughout the day. So there's some tests out there, a kit you can get on your own that is a saliva test. You do it at four different times of the day and it'll give you the feedback that you're curious about that would help with you know what's the best time of the day to train.

least for that that that you know that time of the year or what have you or when's the best time or the least the time that's the least appropriate time to train based on your hormone fluctuations. So it's pretty it it's a pretty cool that's more what I call a movie instead of a snapshot. So you know just a thought. We'll talk about that later on. Yeah it's a it's a lot easier. This cotton swab and then you shove it in a test

Torre Washington (40:26.561)
Mm, I like that.

Dr. Spencer Baron (40:51.246)
tube and they have you do it at four different times of the day and then you send it off to the lab. Just a thought.

Torre Washington (40:56.161)
Mmm, okay.

Dr Terry (40:57.323)
So what I I I I'm curious when somebody's backstage and they find that you're natural and you're whether it's from Rasta or the lifestyle or whatever and and what's the question that you get asked every time that you're almost sick of answering that we want that we can put out in the show and to try and calm it down. What is a question you get asked all the time and how do you answer it?

Dr. Spencer Baron (41:21.302)
An and what accent do you use? No, I'm kidding. Yeah, well well I'll hear either one. Depends on the question, I think.

Torre Washington (41:22.113)
You

Dr Terry (41:23.329)
I wan hear the roster one.

Torre Washington (41:31.335)
man, I

it's gonna be a toss up between what's your stack or where do you get your protein? And you know, I was talking to a friend in the gym and he had a client and his client was using and his client just assumed because I'm in IFBB and I compete along his coach. He said,

I said something, he was like, wait, you're natural? I was like, yeah. And then his coach was like, yeah, man, that's his thing. And he just dropped his waist, walked around the gym like, no way. I felt like he was disappointed in how he looked and how I looked and he was not natural and I was. So I've been getting that a lot lately. then like I told you, Dr. Terry, the protein one has been coming back.

That is probably the one I find the most arduous to answer. Oh, gosh. Again? Sometimes I want to say, do I look like I'm not getting enough protein? Clearly, I can get protein. And clearly, there's protein in everything that we eat. Just the amount that you're looking at based on one specific source, because you can eat your chicken or your turkey and get

protein without fat per se, and I have to get protein with carbs, I just have to be conscious and choosy of which source I wanna go with. like I mentioned to you, if I go with the Fapa bean protein source, that's just straight protein. Or I can do seitan, which has no fat but has carbs, but it has higher protein. So it's just different routes to take. I think,

Torre Washington (43:37.832)
As much as people research and look on their phones, it's funny when they come face to face with someone else who doesn't eat like them and they're like, how do you get your protein? You know you can Google it. You find many sources of protein there. So that's probably the main one, Dr. Terry.

Dr Terry (43:53.234)
I I got another question for ya. You I think so what's your question what's your thoughts on this? I think when you pe have people taking stacking or taking Sumpsace, maybe they're looking for a cheat code to get bigger. And you grew up in a rough time, you grew up

Torre Washington (44:07.784)
Yes.

Dr Terry (44:12.851)
I would assume your work ethic is probably stronger than ninety percent of the people that you work out in the gym. You have to be. So do you find as a natural vegan you're the size you are due to your discipline and your work ethic and because you grew up in where you had to prove yourself a tough attitude, a tough all that, where some people may grow up with a little easier and they're just used to you know what, I'm gonna I I'm only gonna work out an hour today, but I'm gonna juice up so it looks like a work out three hours.

Do do you feel that it most of your success is due to your work ethic or due to your protein intake?

Torre Washington (44:40.82)
Right.

Torre Washington (44:49.401)
definitely my work ethic because I've been training like this. like I said, I used to study these guys on how to lift properties and I would just get the magazine and just read them, read them, read them, read them. And I got Arnold Schwarzenegger's book and studied it because I didn't really, like I said, I didn't in the beginning, I wasn't hyper-focused on, okay, how much protein am I getting today? You know, I was just eating the food that I knew to eat that was vegan and making sure I ate enough.

and drank enough water and slept good. And my training was just, I used to always tell people like, training intensity is so important, but most people don't train with intensity. They just want to move weights. And I see it in the gym when I'm helping clients and I see other people working out and like, Spencer, I have to stop and be like, can I help you real quick? You know, what muscle are you training? And they'd be like, oh, I'm training this, okay.

Dr. Spencer Baron (45:43.073)
Right.

Torre Washington (45:48.297)
So if you can just hold it like this and do this a little bit, you'll get this feel right here. And they're like, my gosh. Like, yeah. Yeah. That's how you train that. it's really, I'm very particular on training with the technique, the biomechanics. And yes, of course there's times when you throw weight around, it's work ethic. I have to feel like my work ethic is really, really.

Dr. Spencer Baron (46:02.648)
Yeah.

Torre Washington (46:18.515)
has gotten me to where I am. Plus with good genetics, a good symmetry, a good proportion. I was very particular about making sure that I train symmetrically to make sure that the muscles, they're not so different from one side to the other. So I was very big on that too.

Dr. Spencer Baron (46:38.318)
Tori, you mentioned some of the movies that you watched as a young kid growing up and all the Arnold movies where he was just a monster. But Tori, you didn't mention pumping iron. What the heck, man? That is my my my ex-wife would turn to me and go, why are you making your kids watch that? No, no. This is like this is a cult movie. We got you gotta watch.

Torre Washington (46:53.854)
I know.

Dr Terry (47:04.661)
Bible.

Dr. Spencer Baron (47:07.362)
They gotta watch Pumping Iron and the Three Stooges. Period. That's it.

Dr Terry (47:10.453)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Dr. Spencer Baron (47:14.582)
Mm.

Torre Washington (47:15.186)
You know, and I enjoy Pumper Iron. I think I enjoy Pumper Iron more now because of when I understood that, Arnold had to play the villain because they attempted to make Lou the villain, but he was too nice of a guy and he had a disability. they're like, all right, well, Arnold, guess it has to be you.

Dr. Spencer Baron (47:25.28)
Yes.

Dr. Spencer Baron (47:34.703)
Isn't that funny? I I I just saw an Instagram post of Arnold today talking about how great Lou was, Lou Ferrigno. He that just admired him to no end. He was always a hard worker. And but back in the pumping iron days, it was the rivalry, you know? And now he just he loved he loved Lou. Arnold loves Lou. Anyway, let me ask you,

Torre Washington (47:37.179)
It is.

Dr. Spencer Baron (48:02.786)
So we understand you're you're you know being a vegan and your your discipline is everything and that is important. Genetics is great to have, but you can always have the discipline to enhance what you know you've been given as far as genetics. So, you know, that what what what is it that you say to yourself when you don't feel like getting up off the couch or going to the gym?

Torre Washington (48:30.781)
I think, well, what I say and what I imagine in my head is that, because it's interesting that you're asking this question right now because I've been getting this recently, how many days a week you work out on the gym? And used to my generalized go-to response was, five or six days a week. But then I looked at it and I was like,

Torre Washington (49:01.373)
I'm in there about seven days a week. So, it's like part of me. It's like I...

Dr. Spencer Baron (49:39.288)
That's a lot.

Dr. Spencer Baron (50:22.934)
Yes. very good. Very good. You should have had your you should

Dr Terry (50:28.555)
Good God, he's ja he he's Japanese, he's Rasta, he's Alabama. I mean, ever every a around every corner there's a surprise. You know, you know what Spencer we haven't talked about? His hair. I mean, I know it's Rasta, but but that's like Samson in the Bible, Samson Delioth, you know, the big strong man with the with the flowing hair. You know, talk about does that hair does it help you I mean because

Dr. Spencer Baron (50:42.156)
That's Rasta, man. That's not Alabama hair. Yeah.

Dr Terry (50:56.701)
I'm always fascinated by dreads and especially when they're done the right way and they're done beautifully like yours are. I is that can you explain the 'cause when I see you on stage, even at bodybuilding, no, but when w when when I see on stage, that actually enhances this look that you have and it makes you really stand out and

It it's beautiful. And so is that how many of you incorporated this whole this this I mean, you're it's more of a lifestyle, it is you. But do you get a lot of comments about how beautiful the hair is with the physique and and how that's all part of you?

Dr. Spencer Baron (52:39.084)
Hey, Terry, how about the rapid fire questions? Ready?

Dr Terry (52:42.145)
Yeah, I got what I got well I got one more. you know, if if a young athlete, a skeptical doctor, a burned out fifty year old is listening to this show, w what's one belief about food, muscle, and human potential that you wanna leave them with?

Dr. Spencer Baron (53:22.147)
Good one.

That's good because everybody pushes their own belief system on

Dr Terry (53:28.811)
Well, especially with influencers now on the internet, everybody wants to be somebody else and I I think that's such a wise statement to be you and not be focused on what other people want you to be.

Dr. Spencer Baron (53:31.822)
yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (53:40.591)
So good. So good. All right, Tori, this is where we start to wrap things up and we do this five question rapid fire scenario that you know if you could answer with one sentence or one word, it's this is what, you know, down to the wire. Are you qu are you ready for question number one? If you were allowed one cheat day, what would it be and what would it look like?

Dr. Spencer Baron (54:32.174)
There you go, man.

Dr Terry (54:33.439)
That sounds ha have you ever had a hamburger or meat? Ever? Okay. Alright. Did you blow up?

Dr. Spencer Baron (54:37.768)
God. What the hell happened to ya? Diarrhea? Vomit? What what? What?

Did it come alive or something? I don't know. Anyway. yeah. Yeah. Right. man. All right. Question number two. Would you rather have to train for the rest of your life listening to only Bob Marley or only old school hip hop? And what song? Instantly flips. The switch for.

Dr Terry (54:53.045)
He's he s he star ja he started talking Japanese is what happened.

Dr Terry (55:40.145)
It's awesome.

Dr. Spencer Baron (55:43.535)
Listen, man, we've done 274 plus shows. That's the first time everybody's was singing lyrics like that. That's great, man. man. Question number three: When self-doubt starts, when self-doubt starts creeping in before a competition during prep, or maybe a tough day, what's the silent phrase, prayer, mantra, or whatever you're going to call it, or a conversation you have with yourself that nobody gets to hear except you?

Dr Terry (55:49.569)
We did.

Dr Terry (56:24.766)
that. I love that. I you got your goosebumps. I love that.

Dr. Spencer Baron (56:29.752)
Good job, man. Love that. Say it again.

Dr. Spencer Baron (56:35.672)
Want people to recite mantras like that. That's fantastic. Thank you for that. I got two more questions for you. What's this is question number four. What's something your f well, your father or your mother taught you when you were young that seemed simple at the time, but now you realize has guided you almost e guided almost every other major decision in your life? Or maybe your grandfather.

Dr. Spencer Baron (57:39.608)
Mom's still around?

Dr. Spencer Baron (57:45.998)
All right, last question number five. We'll pick it up and see. Let's see. What i all right, if you could have dinner with let's say three people, an athlete, a musician, a historical figure, who are you choosing and what's the first question that you're asking each one of

Dr. Spencer Baron (58:51.362)
Really?

Dr. Spencer Baron (59:01.752)
Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (59:05.777)
musician, that could be combined, yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (59:20.022)
Yeah.

Dr. Spencer Baron (59:30.809)
Tori Washington, thank you for being on our show, man. It was nothing less than inspiring. It was great.