To Hire or To Fire, That is the Question

How do you know if the person you recently hired is the right one? In this episode, Dr. Kuba and  Bethany discuss three recent examples where practice owners are evaluating this very question. At the 60 day point, one practice owner is already beginning to doubt her clinical assistant’s skillset. Another practice owner is trying to decide if it’s worth continuing to invest in his newest assistant who continues to buck the cultural norms of his practice. And yet, another practice owner likes her newest assistant (of 18 months) but the team can’t stand her. Dr. Kuba gives her advice in each of these three scenarios in hopes that listeners have tools to use when they are trying to decide whether to hire or fire.  

Previous Episodes Worth Revisiting: 

When to Call it Quits on an Employee

How to Effectively Welcome a New Employee 

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Transcript

Are you looking for a podcast where you can hear from real people regarding their real dental drama? If so, then
0:09
you've come to the right place. Join hosts Bethany Penny and Dr. Reena Kuba
0:14
as we dive into the solutions we've created and the mistakes we've made while managing dental drama.
0:22
Let's get started. Well, hey lady. What's up? How's it going? Um, it's going. It's going. The sun is
0:29
shining and uh I can't complain. And it's frigid temperatures for Texas. Yes, it's going to like right now. What
0:36
does my car say? It says 52. BR. We're all bundled in our sweatshirts and
0:44
Okay. So, I've got lots of scenarios to throw out to you today that I'm just You have no clue what I'm about to bring up,
0:50
but I want your thoughts and your feedback on them. Okay. Okay. Okay. Is there a is there a
0:55
connecting theme or topic or is this all just random stuff or what is it? Hiring firing would be the theme.
1:02
Okay. Yeah. Issues related to new employees or
1:07
current employees. Okay. Bring it. I know. Let's see what you got. Okay. So, first example. I wrote these
1:14
all down cuz there's been so many in the last few weeks. So, these are what's happening in your client's offices. These are real life scenarios.
1:22
The meat. I like it. I like it. Okay, go ahead. The drama. Okay, so the first one is um a client of
1:29
mine that hired, again, we're still kind of in a weird
1:34
world of hiring. Sometimes it's hit or miss. You can get lots of good candidates and then sometimes you're
1:40
just like you have to pick the best of what you've got. And she was in a
1:46
position where she really, it's a newer practice, small team. She had to have somebody. She had been kind of temping
1:53
it out for as long as she possibly could, but needed to hire somebody. So,
1:58
she hired an a clinical assistant, chairside assistant, that was very very
2:03
quiet in the interview process, but felt like she had enough skills to kind
2:10
of get the job done. Um, she knew it wasn't maybe like her ideal candidate,
2:17
but she felt like it would she would be good enough. Um, and so fast forward,
2:23
you know, the first 30 days, as you know, is like a lot of onboarding, teaching, training.
2:28
It's just, it's hard to evaluate the person and see in the first 30 days how how it's going to go. So, my client and
2:36
I had a conversation at close to this person's 60-day point. It was right
2:42
around there where she was starting to see some real concerns.
2:48
Um concerns being I haven't seen the efficiency grow at
2:53
all. Like we're still um she's still in a hygiene-free practice. So it's a
2:59
general practice again young. So she's still not quite ready for a hygienist. And so this um assistant has chronal
3:07
polishing um certification and so she my client's trying to run an efficient
3:13
schedule. So she's like, "Okay, I she handles the polishing part and that polishing part is taking a really long
3:20
time and I'm not seeing the speed increase at all."
3:27
Um, you know, this person's still making temp or the assistant, she's in a
3:33
practice where she's trying to have the assistant make the temp crowns. She's like, that's taking a really long time.
3:38
Packing cord, I still don't think she has that. So, my client is still teaching and coaching and but she's
3:45
trying to back away so that she can evaluate whether this person can actually accomplish the task at hand.
3:52
Um, but and it's it's not improving is the bottom line. So, her conversation
3:58
with me was concern over those things, but also she said, "I still am really
4:04
struggling to even get to know this person cuz she's so quiet." and she said, "I feel like I'm starting to see
4:10
anxiety with this person, like as I coach her." And she and my client is so
4:16
nice, like she wouldn't hurt a fly. So, she was like, "I'm trying to do it in a very encouraging way and peppy way."
4:22
It's just like, "Hey, try this." Or, "Hey, can you do this?" Or, "Hey, we're 30 minutes into that temp crown and
4:30
we've got another patient here. Why don't you go ahead and go see the next patient? I'll finish up the temp crown.
4:37
And she's like, "How long do I how long do I keep running this?" And so I asked her, I said, "What's showing you
4:43
anxiety?" And she said, "I've just seen her being very like you can physically see that
4:50
she's overwhelmed in the moment." And so she said there was one scenario where she had to tag in to take over the crown
4:58
because a patient was already here. So she said, "Hey, why don't you go grab the next patient, get going with them, I'm going to finish up with this one."
5:04
And she said she just kind of kept looking for the assistant. She's like, "Where did she go?"
5:10
She came to realize that she had to take like a moment in the bathroom to collect herself because she had gotten so
5:17
stressed out over not being able to finish this temp crown that she didn't even go and get the next patient because
5:24
she was in the bathroom needing to have like a moment. And
5:30
so that's where we're at at this point, 60 days in. So, still within that 90day
5:35
category, but at this point, you've invested all this time in training. I mean, she's getting the job done.
5:42
She's just getting it done slowly and she's she does just fine like talking with the patient. So, it's not like
5:48
she's so quiet that she can't carry on a conversation. But now you're like, do we have the capacity to increase speed? And
5:55
if that pressure of, oh man, I didn't get this temp crown done and I failed
6:02
and so now I need to take 5 minutes to kind of pull myself together in the bathroom. Like is that what do you do
6:08
with that? Well, uh I'm exhausted just hearing about it and to me my thought is
6:14
it's time to go part ways. But I think some of the questions I have for that is
6:20
is she young and new to being an RDA? No, she's got several years under her
6:26
belt. Then then I think then that that's speaks volumes. Yeah. Like if you've had several years
6:33
um and this is the pace at which you can move at then either doc if you can
6:38
repurpose and you're like okay she's not bad with the patients. Um she and I
6:44
guess the other question I have is when you're saying like she's not increased speed. What has Doc said to her about
6:50
speed? Like what conversations have they had? Like is it just Doc observing her and going, "Man, she's not getting any faster." But has she said anything to
6:57
her? Like she did. She did after we spoke cuz she's kind of getting up to the 60 days
7:02
going, "Okay, now there's been enough time. Now what?" And so but for 60 days she hadn't said
7:09
anything. Well, no, other than okay, periodic coaching, you know. So, so that
7:14
is one of the things we talked about is hey you need to sit down and give her like written this is your expectation on
7:21
time and so I guess the other thing I would ask then is um has any whether Doc or you
7:29
gone in and said how's it going like from your perspective do you feel like this is a good home for you? Do you feel
7:36
like you are uh to me if we're that far in like almost 60 days and you have to
7:41
go collect yourself in the bathroom, something's not right. And so um I think I think again, yeah, I think
7:47
the writing's on the wall. Now, if you had told me she's only been an assistant for 6 months or 8 months or 13 months,
7:53
okay, so that's understandable. That's understandable. Um and it might be worth putting more time in. I think
7:58
this doc I think you've got what you've got. Yeah. And if it's not going to be what you need and you can't find a spot for
8:04
her. Um but then if she doesn't speak that much then but then the next question is have you given her an
8:10
opportunity to speak? Like have you tapped into her and and is it might it
8:16
come better? Like luckily she's got a Bethany but if she didn't have you would it need to be another team member? Like
8:22
what are the other Well, you said it's a young practice small practice. How many other team members are there? There's two team members total
8:28
including this one. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. one clinical RDA and then a
8:33
business team member. So, it's like you that's the challenge of this is
8:40
there's no backup. You know, there's no you're having to make a decision of if it doesn't work with this one, I'm going
8:46
back to temps for a while. I think she definitely needs to still be looking and interviewing and not not
8:53
even um you know, maybe saying to this one going as we're building, we're we're looking to add on. And I
8:59
wonder too like cuz I had an assistant like that once a long time ago. I think she was the first assistant I ever
9:05
hired. And I think if I hired her now, she would thrive because she is
9:11
a follower for sure. Yeah. Um and but when I had hers when I had
9:18
started the practice and she needed to be the leader. So I needed more out of her. I needed more strategy out of her.
9:24
I needed more brain power out of her. and that was just not her. Yeah.
9:30
And um so I think she needed a team and then to be a part of that team, she
9:36
could probably do really well. Yeah. So that's probably this one. It seems like she's not a leader. Everything is
9:41
on her. Maybe that's what's making her so stressed and tense. Um and she's probably not a leader
9:47
personality to begin with. So maybe if you did have another assistant on board and um this
9:54
one then could fall into roles that she was better at. I don't know. But but to me if it is what it is, I think she
10:00
needs to be looking. I I would not spend more time on this one. I think you've you've if she joined your practice 5 years from
10:06
now, she might be a better fit. But right now it's not the fit that you need. Yeah. because you got to have more of that to take charge confident, you know,
10:14
or at least the ability because again, when you're hedging all of your bets on one RDA, like you need them to be able
10:19
to keep keep pace if nothing else. Yeah, I I agree. And it's tough cuz it's like
10:26
hiring is not easy. So, she could be signing up for months of a temp assistant until she finds somebody,
10:33
which which then that's I mean, if this one hasn't done anything egregious, she's not harmed the patient. She's not going to the bathroom to smoke her weed
10:39
or what, you know what I mean? She's So, but I would hire another one alongside her. Yeah. And and just take the hit on the
10:46
finances at that point. Yeah. But um maybe you start seeing a different side of her once she's got a
10:52
buddy. Like maybe she feels like she's alone on an island right now. Yeah. Um but I think that's the other question
10:58
is have you I mean it's an awkward thing. How do you say what the hell are you doing? How long does it take to
11:03
polish in there? Right. But you might have to find a way to do that and kind of be like, "Okay, let's
11:08
reflect back." Yeah. You know, maybe she's kind of going, "What do you need from me?" Like I,
11:14
you know, packing cord, you're good with that. Okay, you did a good job. Is a bit
11:19
slow. What do you think we could do to increase your speed? Yeah. Um, polishing, you know, like what what do you need from me to to make that
11:26
faster? Do you need me to like what do you think? Yeah. I think you just kind of have to have
11:31
some of those conversations. Yeah. And and like you said, if she's a she doesn't sound like she's mean or
11:37
anything like that, but kind of a we we are in this together. How do we get this patient out the door quicker?
11:43
Yeah. Um and maybe that's then I assistant is going, "What do you mean? I never
11:49
realized I was slow." Right. Right. Or do you want me to do a sloppy job? No, I want you to do a good job, but you
11:55
got to just be more efficient with it. Um Yeah, I think so, too. I mean, I think
12:01
it's just more chronic communication, but I I agree with you. I think pinpointing when you've got only one
12:07
RDA, it's like noticing early on this person probably can't fly solo.
12:12
Yeah. That they need that buddy and this may just not be the exact right.
12:18
But I I would keep her again if she's not doing anything egregious, but just in your mind, I think what needs to happen is keep
12:24
looking cuz you never know it. It is cyclical who pops up where. keep talking to your reps or whoever is like, "Hey,
12:30
we're looking." Once the next person, if you find somebody that comes in and
12:35
you're going, "I can't afford to have to." You're gonna have to figure that out for a little bit. It might be 3 or 4 months where you're paying, you know, a
12:42
couple thousand more. Yeah. But in the grand scheme of things, that is worth it because either then you're
12:47
going to find the right person and then eventually weed this one out or maybe you start seeing this one do better now that she's got a buddy in
12:54
there. True. Um, but I think Yeah. to to kind of be like, "We're done. This is my person,
12:59
and I've got to figure out, no, I I think she's not your person." At least the way it stands right now.
13:05
Yeah. No, I think that makes total sense. Okay, good. That's scenario one. You ready for scenario two? Sure.
13:10
Okay. So, scenario two is a client of mine that brought on his
13:17
second RDA. So, he always has had two RDAs, but one of them needed to fill a
13:24
role at the front. She was cross-trained. we needed her more at the front. So, he was bringing on his second
13:30
RDA. Has really good longevity on his team. His team members have been there for a
13:36
really long time. So, they're pretty picky on who comes onto the team. Um, they kind of have a theme of like no new
13:42
friends. They just don't they would prefer they'd much rather work harder
13:47
than to have a new team member because they know they can slug it out well and
13:52
they know that there's a risk that that new person brings. Um but in this particular scenario, they were like,
13:58
"Okay, we've we've worked as hard as we can without a new friend. We're willing to look at, you know, bringing a new new
14:04
team member on." Um so they found a um RDA that had been out of the field for a
14:11
while. She had been raising children and was ready to come back into the workforce.
14:17
Great personality, very energetic, enthusiastic, you know, eager to be back in the in the workforce. Um but she's
14:25
got a pretty high caliber team that she's um stepping on to. So pretty big shoes to fill. And so my client
14:36
obviously trained her up um pretty quickly. She acclimated, was able to get
14:41
back on track. You know, she'd been out of the field for a while, so you never know how quickly they're going to get back on track. Chairside doing just
14:49
fine. um great interactions with the patients, but there started to be some
14:54
team concerns um in particular
15:00
almost more attitude type things that well I don't know I'll say soft skills.
15:07
Let's call them soft skills. soft skills of she kind of wasn't understanding cues
15:14
of hey when you're not with a patient that doesn't mean go up to the front and chat with the ladies at the front. It
15:21
means find something to do. Um, hey, don't when you don't have a patient, you
15:27
don't need to um step back to the break room and do a 15 minute phone call or
15:33
you don't need to go off to a room that doesn't have a patient and like send out some text messages. Like we work all the
15:42
time so that, you know, don't don't take advantage of those. um little things
15:47
like she's a very outgoing personality and so hey don't there's certain things
15:54
you don't need to say to patients like in your chit chatting don't you know
15:59
don't go off and do too much personal sharing um hey don't pop into a room
16:07
to ask the doctor something when he when he's in with another patient just soft
16:12
skills social cues um but ultimately It got to a point where the person had g
16:20
been given feedback on those things and then she started to to develop as she developed some security on the team
16:26
because this is I guess maybe 6 or 8 months in as she started to feel like she was in she had been accepted into
16:33
the group then she started um doing little first of all she was on her phone
16:39
way too much. she was very much distracted um even though she had been advised not
16:47
to do that. So, lots of feedback. When I come in, I'm giving direct feedback, but
16:52
then there started to be kind of this attitude that was developed of um you know, she'd be asked to help to do
16:59
something and she was like, "Well, aren't you're asking me? Aren't you available right now? Can't you do it?"
17:05
So, almost like deflecting um requests to help. Um, so
17:13
given what I've described about this person, is she a longtime team member or
17:18
not? I think the fact that she's made it that long and has been accepted
17:26
um does speak to her skill set. Yeah. At least as far as her technical
17:32
um whatever, which is a godsend that's hard to find. I think um
17:39
I think it's very challenging for her to step into a place that pretty much is philosophy is like we don't like new
17:45
people. Yeah. But I think a lot of our offices are like that. I think my office is like that too. Like uh newbie like what are
17:51
you going to bring to the table? Like do you you know are you going to fit in with us and help our load or not? Um so
17:58
I think it's almost at this point it's not even a matter of is she going to make it long term.
18:04
Do you do you want this to be your home? Yeah. It's not from the office because I think
18:10
what what it's telling me is she's bucking the culture. Mhm. Yes. And so the culture is we work, we
18:17
shouldn't have to ask you to work. We shouldn't have to ask you to not be on your phone. Like in our office, we've got the cell phone policy that you're
18:24
not on your phone, but obviously people have watches and can get around it. And it's at the end of the day it it boils
18:29
back down to we are not on our phones because we are a culture of when we are on the clock we're going to bust it.
18:35
We're not on the clock all the time. Yeah. We're not an office that we're there you know 6 days a week 7 to 7 like so you
18:42
have plenty of time to be on your phone and when you're on the clock is not one of those times. Yeah. So if you can't get with that then you
18:49
need to see yourself out. Yeah. So it's almost like at this point like again whether it's the doctor whether it's you or whoever it's almost
18:56
like hey you know we we've talked about the cell phone on this many times you know we had where you're kind of
19:01
questioning who's doing things which almost is like a are you not trusting of
19:06
your teammates that you think that they're just going to pile work on you cuz they don't want to do it. Yeah.
19:11
So I mean it you have to look into that too. Is it team members that are doing that? From what you're telling me, these
19:17
are established people that have been there a while and they're not afraid to work hard, right? And chances are what what that's telling
19:23
me though is typically those people are the ones who are like, I'm not going to trust you to do this
19:28
cuz I'm the one who knows how to do this. You're an idiot. You're going to mess it up. Get out of my way. I'm going to do it. So if they're giving it to you
19:34
to ask you to do it, that means they've probably done everything they can do with it, right? or with whatever they're if
19:40
they're like tasked with 15 things and they can only get 10, they're like, "Okay, I'm going to keep the 10 most important. The five are important, but
19:47
these are things I'm willing to delegate out." Um, so I think for me, the question is
19:52
what is her experience or background? Maybe she's never been in an office like that. Maybe
19:58
she's always been in corporate where it is each man for himself. But I think for her it's like, okay, you're coming up on
20:03
a year mark here. What are your thoughts of this practice? What do you like about this practice? Do you see yourself being
20:09
long-term in this practice? Can I offer you some feedback? Sounds like she's a sanguin, so she's going to want the feedback.
20:15
So, to me, I would be like, "May I give you some feedback?" You know, from a culture standpoint, this is where this
20:22
office is. Things that we see you doing that don't quite fit that. When you're on your
20:28
phone, that that's a like we shouldn't have to ask you. We've had to ask you this many times. There are a lot of offices that are okay with you being on
20:34
their phone. Yeah. This isn't one of them. You know, this is where we all pitch in and help
20:40
regardless. Like, there's no princess or diva here. You know, sometimes the
20:45
manager is the one washing the dishes in the break room. Sometimes it's the RDA that's like cleaning out the shredder up
20:51
for the front desk. She didn't shred those documents, but it's okay. It's where she's needed. Sometimes front desk is coming back and doing sterile.
20:57
Yeah. So, this is an office where we pitch in everywhere because everybody benefits from that for you. Yeah. you're being given these
21:03
tasks because you're the newest one and we're trying to see what else you can do besides assisting,
21:09
right? But we feel like there's some resistance. Mhm. Um and so that kind of almost conveys a
21:14
mistrust. So you're almost here a year. Are you Is this your office?
21:20
Yeah. Cuz we're not really seeing that right now. Yeah. Have you have you really embraced the
21:25
culture? Which is fine. You've not even been here a year. You're still trying to go, is this where I see myself?
21:32
Do we see you here as far as your skill set? Yes. Do we see you here as far as a
21:37
culture fit? Maybe. But it's really kind of on is it something we're doing? We
21:43
don't think so. We think it's a you haven't really embraced our culture, right? What are your thoughts? Yeah.
21:49
And kind of maybe she's never thought about it in that viewpoint. Or then you're going to have your answer where she's like, you
21:56
know what, that's BS. You're right. I don't like this culture. I'm out of here. Yeah. Off you go then, honey. And it's
22:02
disappointing because you spent a year implementing her, but I don't I don't think that's a waste, right? Cuz it's
22:08
like you probably learned a lot about yourself as a team, right? Because then you're kind of going, okay, maybe skill set isn't as important as
22:15
the soft skills, right? Or you know what, we only got eight months out of her, but at least it got us eight months further into being able
22:22
to see patients and us catch our breath. Absolutely. And now we're ready to dive in and work harder again until we try to
22:27
onboard the next one. Yeah. Um so I I think the ball is almost kind
22:33
of in her court to decide almost like get in line or get or see yourself out. Yeah.
22:39
We'd love to have you if you can get in line, but if you can't ahead with culture that's what it boils down to.
22:45
And I think that's a lot of times what practices don't consider is like
22:50
technically they have the skills to get the job done, but are they the right fit
22:57
is a different question. And yeah, she's bucking the culture, which we knew would be a hard one
23:03
because they already have such an established team and an established culture. And they've even said, "We don't really want an outsider in to mess
23:09
up our culture." They were very clear about that. Mhm. The fact that she's made it for 8 months is pretty good.
23:15
Yeah. But now she's still kind of bucking culture, which I don't think the timing
23:20
that sounds, you know, but to me I I start going, are you are you now testing
23:26
your limits? Are you a toddler now? And you're kind of going, where are the boundaries here?
23:32
Um or are you kind of uh mistrusting or are you clueless? And it's the you show
23:39
and it's like okay well whichever way it was let's be very clear this is our
23:44
culture this is you you have shown a lot of promise in a lot of areas we're from from that aspect but I think
23:52
what you're missing is there's a whole culture piece here and are you willing to get on board with
23:57
that and if you're not then we're we're going to have problems
24:02
so where do you want to be what's important to you like do you like the doctor? Do
24:08
you like our patients? Do you like our hours? Do you like your pay? Are you willing to risk all of that?
24:14
Mhm. Because you want to see what else is out there and you don't care about this office the way we do,
24:19
right? Um and that's fine if you don't, but you don't need to be here because that's where the friction is getting started
24:25
and is going to continue. And it's going to continue. Yeah. Fix it. And so I think for me like pointing
24:30
those things out to her, getting her feedback on whether she's like, "Okay, I see what you mean." or y'all are ratit
24:37
crazy. I'm out of here. Or oh, I had no idea like whatever it is. But giving her, you know, 2 3 months beyond after
24:44
that conversation, by then you're putting her at about a yearish. And if you in that amount of time, if
24:51
you're like, she's actually dug her heels in and gotten worse, then maybe that's where you're onboarding a new RDA.
24:57
Yeah. You're you're starting to look again. Yeah. Yeah. And then if you're seeing improvements, like true improvements,
25:03
then you're like, "Okay, now we know that she wants to be here and she's willing to make personal changes in order to fit in to the culture here."
25:11
Yeah. And how how I've kind of had those conversations the past, you know, it's kind of like a check-in appointment. You know, you're coming up on a year here in
25:17
a couple months. Isn't that amazing how long you've been here? Let me tell you, this is like what has gone really well, what we're really impressed with. The
25:23
main question I have for you, though, is do you want to be here? And I think that's always such a powerful question
25:29
because it usually throws them off guard. Of course I want to be here. Of course I show up. Why would you say that? Whatever
25:35
because the culture doesn't quite align. And these are the things that I'm seeing. And so I know to you it may seem like a
25:41
little petty deal, but it's not petty to us. No. So like I'm sure you've noticed nobody else is on their cell phone.
25:47
I'm sure you've noticed everybody else find something to do. And as a contributing member of this office team
25:52
and family, you know, we all look for something to do, which I get when you're new the first 6 months, you may not know
25:58
what else to do and then I put that back on the team where you're like, you know, she's going to the break room or finding a quiet
26:04
room. Was that back on the team for not giving her something to do, not training her on something, like what
26:09
is she supposed to do? And I'm sure if she comes in, it's like, oh, do y'all need help with something? I'm sure a lot
26:14
of times the answer is no, we're good. Yeah. or I don't have time to train you or I don't want to train you. You're
26:20
going to mess this up. Like I hear all of that. Okay. But at the end then what do what would you like her to do?
26:25
Yeah. So now they finally it sounds like 8 months in are trying to give her stuff to do but now she's pushing back. Um so
26:33
I don't know that it's necessarily a bad thing. Part of me goes is it just the whole you've been so protective and
26:39
guarded of your stuff. I don't blame her for thinking that. Yeah. Now you're trying to dump grunt work on me, right?
26:44
Without her realizing, well, it's it's what you're doing instead is you're going after collections.
26:50
Yeah. So, you are doing something that you is important. You're not going to go to the break room and go do your nails and
26:56
you're giving her this task. But, does she see that? Do y'all communicate enough with her?
27:01
I don't know. So I think it's worth this is the time to have those conversations and really kind of see you know she may
27:07
not have an answer right away but she might go okay yeah they trust me you know and you know whether you want to be
27:12
here not only you can answer that question we finally are going okay you've mastered all of these things now we're
27:18
starting to give you more tasks cuz we believe in you we believe that you've got this and that you can be
27:23
contributing to other parts of the office which is amazing. Yeah. But when you ask questions like this
27:29
Yeah. that can that's kind of a red flag to us. What do you mean by that? Do you not trust us? Do you not you know what I
27:34
mean? Like I and I think trust is the key word there too because I think about this particular scenario. And I think that's
27:40
it because they've got such a tight-knit culture that is always helping the other
27:46
team member out without without question. Like there's no assumption of this person's taking advantage of me or
27:53
they are going off to the break room to do their nails while I clean up their room. like that just doesn't exist on
27:59
this culture. And so for her, it's a trust thing. Does she not see that? Has
28:05
she not taken the time to observe that or has she just assumed for the last 6 or 7 months that this is the fulfillment
28:12
of her role and she doesn't understand, oh no, that has just been an onboarding and training time and now you get to
28:20
grow and support your team even more. And I think that can happen a lot. we kind of protect those new hires with
28:27
like, oh, just this here's the basic job description and let's get you up to speed on that. And then as they achieve
28:33
that, we start to add more things on their plate as we should because they've kind of earned their right and they view
28:39
that as more responsibility. And so I think it's trusting first of all, this team member is not asking for my help so
28:45
that she can go take a break. Is that there that trust there? But then also secondary to that, do I realize that I'm
28:53
now achieving a spot where they trust me and are adding more to my plate? And I
28:59
think that's very Exactly. And maybe she's never been in an office that that has conducted itself
29:04
that way. I don't know if you remember probably about 2 years ago, we had I think twoish more people on our team and
29:10
it was constant. Why didn't she do this? Why didn't she do that? Why are you giving this to me instead of giving it
29:16
to her? It was like this child's play and we are we we lost those two people now we're two people in the front and we
29:23
don't have those issues anymore. Yeah. It's like the trust is there now. Um and
29:28
I think for those people too to be like oh you know where y'all no it's we have
29:34
you're being given this for this reason. They don't question that anymore. Yeah. Um because now they trust each other
29:40
because I think the weeds we had in there that would stir the pot and go why did she give you that? Why didn't she give you that? Why did she take this?
29:47
Why? Those people are gone. And now the people that we have are like, "Let's get down to business." Like, somebody needs
29:52
to reply to this email. Why didn't you do it? I don't know. But you're her co-front person. You take
29:58
care of it. And now that culture is there. We're not trying to set you up for failure. We're not trying to set you up for you doing the grunt work. It is
30:05
what it is. We all need to be helpful in this. And that I think that trust is there now where it wasn't a year and a
30:10
half ago, you know? Yeah. And some of those people too that were like, "Are y'all in or are you out?"
30:16
Yeah. And I think they have now bought into the practice going, "No, no, no. I'm I'm in. I want to be here."
30:21
Yeah. Okay. Well, show me that then. And they have. Yeah. I think trust I think culture is
30:29
kind of the first, if we could summarize the first example, that's probably a culture thing. This one is probably a um
30:35
trust thing, honestly. and culture. But I mean trust once we've made it past that 60 to 90
30:42
days where we're trying to figure out is this person gonna be right for my team long term. Now we've made it 6 8 months.
30:48
Now it's like do we do we trust the new person? And do they trust us? And do they want to be here?
30:53
Yeah. Long term. Yeah. Cuz you're right. The first 60 to 90 days is just can you pack cord? Can you make a temporary? Can you
30:59
put the vitals in the notes? Like we're trying to assess your technical skill set. Do you can you help us? And now
31:05
it's like, okay, how do we incorporate you more into the fold? Yeah. Okay. So, I think I've got one
31:11
time for one more um uh example here. So, what do you do in the situation
31:17
where I've got a client that has a RDA that's been with her actually for I
31:23
guess a year and a half or so. And bottom line is the team just does not
31:31
like her is what it boils down to. uh clinically she can do the sk the skills
31:37
necessary. Um the doctor likes her. She was like she's a great assistant. I like her just
31:44
fine, but the team does not like her. And so I questioned her on this recently. I was like, what specifically
31:51
don't they like about her? And they're like, she said it's really truly a
31:56
personality thing. She's very blunt. She doesn't sugarcoat anything. She kind of
32:03
sticks her nose in business that's not hers ultimately. Um they just really
32:12
don't like her as a person. And who's they? The entire rest of the team. Front back. How many people?
32:19
Team. So there's two ladies at the front. There's three RDAs and one hygienist. So this lady is one of the
32:27
RDAs. And the the one of the RDAs is neutral,
32:33
like you know, whatever. She gets the job done. She's kind of a no field type RDA, but the other RDA, the hygienist,
32:40
and the two ladies at the front just And have they been there a lot longer than this one?
32:46
Mhm. She's the newest one to the team. Okay. So, what do you do in that scenario? I
32:51
mean, how much weight do you put on the team liking and accepting this person?
32:57
If she's more or less getting the job done, according to the doctor, she is.
33:04
According to the team, it's like there's room for improvement performance-wise.
33:10
So, do they do anything like engagement skills? They do not. So that would be a great place to start because to me then that
33:18
would be um as they are all putting in their
33:24
feedback for her it's I think at that point it's you're right if it's just one feeling type of thing but if now they're
33:30
saying that they're there they're improvements in the job um doctor may not even be aware of what some of those
33:37
are. Yeah.
33:46
Um, so I think that would be a great place to start is just getting some kind
33:51
of thing that you could go over to help make her aware of these things. I think
33:57
the next question I have is, have they done any team building type things? Are they a team building office? They are. Yeah, they actually do
34:05
relatively regularly. I would say maybe quarterly, every three or four months they're getting together um
34:13
and the doctor's trying to promote that. This is a very surprisingly
34:19
this is a very strongly flegmatic team.
34:24
Almost all are flaggmatic.
34:30
This one's not. No. Yeah. This one's caleric. She's melancholyic.
34:36
Okay. So, extra anal, kind of a pusher,
34:41
you know. Um, so then that makes me nervous to lose that person because if everybody else is sluggmatic
34:48
and they like just kind of neutral, everybody stayed in your lane. Let's not stir the pot. Although, it does speak
34:55
volumes if they all don't like her cuz aren't typically more neutral going. So, if they're all kind of like we don't
35:01
care for her. Mhm. Um, but to me, she's one that could bring a lot of what's needed to that
35:08
practice to get things done. Mhm. H I know.
35:13
And and this is tricky, too, cuz we're talking about completely different timelines. You know, the first two examples, the first one was 60 almost 60
35:20
days, the second one was 6 to 8 months. I can't remember exactly. And then this one's now a year and a half in. You
35:27
know, you're this person's pretty which is why it's not coming up. I mean, the doctor was aware. She's been aware for
35:34
the last probably four or five months that they that they generally don't like
35:39
this person. But again, with a flaggmatic team, you're not going to realize that until a lot longer cuz
35:45
their threshold is so much longer for identifying somebody that they don't like because they're peaceful. They
35:53
they're they're they're like, "Okay, all right. Well, yeah." And now they're finally coming around
35:58
and going, "Yeah, we don't really like her. Um, I guess the question is also, does
36:05
she like them? Yeah. And so if she has no clue, but
36:12
and she may not have a clue cuz if they're flaggratic, they're probably not saying much. Agreed. Yep. 100%.
36:18
I think they need to start with engagement skills. I think that's going to tell a lot because it'll it'll give her the opportunity to give feedback to
36:23
others and then others to give feedback to her. And if when you are reading those and everybody's like, "Fine, fine, fine, fine." That's where maybe you pull
36:30
one or two of the people or pull each one individually and go okay like what is it
36:36
have you talked to the other team members about their feelings about herm
36:43
newer in my relationship with this team so definitely that will come but yeah at
36:48
this point any critical feedback for other team members hasn't come up yet so
36:54
I I would be curious the dentist has her interpretation based on what the team
36:59
members have shared with her. But yeah, I'd be curious to see what they say specifically about her.
37:05
I I think that's where and that would be a good in for you too to say, "We've not done engagement skills. This is what we're going to do." And then that gives
37:11
you the door to open and ask some of these questions when you're reviewing the engagement skills with each person.
37:18
Um, and I think that's going to shed a lot of light on everything. And then after that, maybe maybe we do need to do
37:25
a team building that you can be a part of. So maybe you can watch the interactions and see if you can glean
37:32
anything from that. Yeah. Yeah. Just to see how they are. Well, and even in the team meetings that
37:37
we've had, I've been watching and I don't see like if she speaks, I don't
37:43
see eye rolls or she's very much engaged. So, it's not like she's,
37:48
you know, she's seeing herself out of the equation. I almost get the idea that
37:54
she doesn't even know that she's not liked. Not liked. Um, which again with a
38:00
flaggmatic teen would not be surprising. Yeah. That they're internally feeling this, but they don't want to cause ripples or
38:06
anything. So, they're just kind of putting up with the things that annoy her. But then that's not fair to the
38:12
person that's unaware. Yeah. Yeah. That she's annoying her teammates. Yeah. Which again, I think this is where
38:18
the engagement scale will help with that, but at the end of the day, like it may just be there may be nothing to do
38:25
here because I think naturally the flegmatics aren't going to like this opinionated, bold person cuz it's so
38:31
anti what they are, but I think the doctor needs to have somebody like that on her team.
38:36
Yes. So, it may just be okay. Well, of the flagmatics may not like her, but they're not going to they're not going to
38:42
sabotage her or the office. They're just going to inwardly be like, "Buh, we don't like her." And that may be that.
38:48
Yeah, there may be nothing to be done here. And to think about that from a hiring standpoint when you're trying to decide
38:53
whether this person needs to remain on your team or not, whether it's early or later in the in the stay. Honestly, you
39:00
ha if you've got a team that's full of the same personality type, there's gonna
39:05
be if you have somebody that is different from them, they're gonna stand out. Whether that's a melancholy in this
39:12
case, standing out amongst flegmatics or whether whether that's a sanguin standing out amidst a bunch of clerics,
39:20
but that doesn't necessarily mean they're not the right fit for your practice. You may still very much need
39:26
that skill set. It's just they're the odd odd man or woman out and it is what it is.
39:31
Yeah. And I think that that's what you taught me a long time ago and and you know same thing we had a team full of
39:37
luggatics. Some of themselves saw themselves off the the team and that couldn't have worked out better for us.
39:44
So um I think there's especially if she's made it a year and a half and it doesn't sound like she's doing anything
39:50
egregious. They just kind of don't really like her. I I think there's probably not much to be done here.
39:55
Yeah. Sounds like they're still getting the job done and there's not going to be any major catastrophe from there. But,
40:01
you know, it would be nice if they could kind of figure out what to like about her. Yeah.
40:06
And realize that she does bring some strengths. And I think that's where the engagement scale would help cuz it's going to make them force them to kind of
40:11
go, you know what? Yeah. If we didn't have her, this is where we would be or she does help in these cases. Yeah.
40:16
Um, and I'm curious to see what she thinks. Does she feel like she's the odd man out? Right. Right.
40:23
and maybe she has feedback for team members from her vantage point that um
40:30
again they need to receive. So I think feedback is the key theme here and trying to foster that and get it because
40:36
sometimes we may not just naturally like somebody but if we put pen paper on evaluating them from a performance
40:42
standpoint then we realize oh well she actually is bringing value that I just am not allowing myself to see because I
40:49
don't like her exactly. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Did I Did I uh
40:55
did I pass in terms of did what Kuba do? Is that what matched what Bethany would
41:00
do? Oh, yes. Uh so the 6090day feedback was
41:06
exactly spot on with what I told my client to do. Just very direct feedback
41:11
and let's see if she can acclimate. Um, the anxiety part of it for me was
41:16
concerning on the that first example. The fact that she had to go take time in
41:22
the bathroom was very very concerning to me as the only RDA. I'm like when you've got a backup, you
41:29
can put up with stuff like that. But um I said that's got to we got to make sure that that doesn't continue to happen cuz
41:36
that can be a major problem. So I think even without even if you did have some backups that's just weird.
41:41
Yeah. So that was but my thoughts exactly. We came up with uh feedback
41:46
that she needed to give very directly to the person and then see how she handles
41:52
that. Um the second one um that person
41:57
ended up getting fired the the uh 6 to8 month team member. Um
42:06
there were just some continued and my client is not a fire type person. He's
42:11
like he has a lot of long-term team members. But ultimately, she was casting
42:17
so much attitude when somebody would ask her to do something that he was and
42:22
there were other things like she was still on her phone even though she had been corrected on that. Um she had been
42:28
arriving late to work. So she she kind of had already given her
42:33
middle finger going this is who I am and take it or leave it and they were like bye. Oh yeah. I think she was ultimately
42:40
feeling confident in her position there that yeah, I've been accepted. I've made it this long. And even though she was
42:46
receiving feedback that was like, girl, that's not going to fly here. Yeah. But I think she for her it's like,
42:52
well, I'm going to keep pushing the boundaries. What are you going to do about it? And y'all told her what you're going to do about it.
42:58
But I do think it would have been interesting to see if if before firing her, if she had been given an
43:04
opportunity to be like, "This is unacceptable. with all of these things, but this is not okay. Are you willing to shape up or
43:11
ship out and um you know, we would have turned a corner.
43:18
Yeah. Yeah. So, she ended up getting fired. That was the resolution of the second one, which I do think was the
43:24
right choice um in this scenario. I think if we would Well, I mean, you're right. Like, if we've said you don't need to be on your
43:30
phone, we shouldn't have to revisit that twice. That's that period. End of story. Correct. Correct. And something like
43:37
being on time, which there's natural consequences built into this team for
43:43
that. Like you lose bonus, you I mean like and you're still 6 to 8 months in, you're still showing up not on time,
43:49
even though you know this is important to your boss. Like that's not okay. So there are some of those like key things
43:55
that my client was finally like, uh-uh. Yeah. And I agree. I agree. Yeah. Um and then
44:01
the uh third one um no specific and so all of this is very
44:08
very fresh on the third one. Um my client and I just talked last week about
44:15
why why does what have you heard on the team not liking it. So we'll that's to be determined. But yes, I think the
44:22
engagement skills is a very good suggestion for that one. So okay, these are all the things that can happen
44:27
with new hires. You just never know what's going to come up and I feel like we're constantly navigating like is this
44:34
the right fit and I think the sooner you can make that decision the better. But
44:39
we talked about three different timelines here. One very very early one midpoint like 6 to 8 months in and we're
44:46
still trying to decide and then one 18 months in. I mean you just never know
44:51
when you're going to have it's exhausting. It is mentally, emotionally exhausting. Yeah, it is. But
44:58
it's it's worth thinking through constantly. Is this the right fit or what can I do to make this person the
45:04
right fit? Well, and this is probably a spin-off episode, but it came up. You and I were talking about this with another scenario
45:09
not too long ago um about how much why for the ones that we are like, "This is
45:15
exhausting. I'm just not going to deal with it." Like, so this last example, she's been here a year and a half. Like, nothing bad has happened. I'm going to
45:21
bury my head in the sand. So kudos to this doc for putting our head out of the sandbox going, "Hey, are there red
45:27
flags? Like should I ignore these red flags? Are they really not red flags or are these red flags and do I need to be on top of it?" So um that that's you
45:35
know that's great leadership you're trying to figure out, but for a lot of situations a lot of us
45:41
bury our head in the sand and they're like, "Well, I just don't want to deal with this." Even when you've got
45:46
somebody on your team that is causing harmful things to happen like
45:53
bad patient care outcomes and or culture issues andor whatever and then we kind
46:00
of tend to go well we offer excuses for that and I think this you and I were
46:06
talking about why do we offer excuses and I think this is kind of one of the main things it's just like it's so much
46:11
to deal with and it's so much hemming and hawing going did I give it enough time. Did I not give it enough time? Correct.
46:17
Did I this? Did I that? Should I? What? I What if somebody else comes on? Are they going to have the same problems?
46:22
Are they, you know, now they're coming late and on their phone, but then they can't even pack cord, right? So, maybe I should stick with this one or anyway.
46:29
So, that might be a spin-off episode. I know you and I didn't finish that conversation cuz we were both kind of going, "What is it? What is it with us
46:37
that some of these decisions are so hard?" Um, but maybe we need to come back and explore that more cuz it's the same
46:43
concept. It is like what what for the stock to finally like I'm firing. I've had enough. Um
46:51
you know what what was it one particular incident that put you over the edge? Is it were you getting the vibe the other
46:57
team members were about to revolt as well? Were you like what was it that finally made you pull the trigger and be
47:02
like bye you're gone? Um yeah. So I think that
47:07
that's where all the headache and heartache of this comes in. It really headache and heartache and just the the
47:14
every decision has multiple options and multiple outcomes. Yeah. Really. And you can be stunted in that
47:22
process of making a decision cuz there's so many different ways that it could go. And I think I don't know. I feel like 15
47:29
20 years ago it was like it didn't matter cuz I could get rid of you and there were 10 more in the pipeline. So
47:35
like what am I scared of? There's going to be 10 more that probably are going to be better than you. Um and it's just not
47:41
that workforce anymore. Yeah. Yeah. It's not for multiple reasons. It's not. So it it these are
47:46
important. Like there's no reason to minimize the importance of these. Like it really is a big decision and worth
47:53
thinking through, you know, and seeking counsel for sure. So thanks for joining the conversation today. We hope that you
48:01
are comforted in knowing that you are not alone, but we also hope that you're walking away with some really great tips
48:07
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