The Need For Approval: Part 2

We start with a simple nature observation and end up at a big human problem: approval-seeking turns self-worth into an outside verdict and reshapes our relationships into bargains. We unpack why belonging and survival fears make validation feel necessary, then point back to a steadier truth that lets us grow without judgment. 
• birds and trees as a mirror for self-acceptance 
• approval-seeking as a deeply learned habit that drives behavior 
• the belief that worth is external and why it feels existential 
• how marketplace thinking turns survival into something you must earn 
• approval as power and a tool for controlling group behavior 
• three myths about worth and why they are backwards 
• belonging as a survival need that gets twisted into “am I good enough” 
• moving through groups as we evolve rather than clinging for safety 
• how you see yourself shaping how you judge others 
• compassion as the alternative to condemnation and constant evaluation 
Can you drop a thumbs up in the chat if you can hear us? 

Transcript

Birds And The Approval Habit

SPEAKER_02 0:10

We are on the line.

SPEAKER_00 0:12

Beautiful, sunny, clear sky morning. All kinds of birds all over the place. I saw the osprey, I saw the eagle, I've seen all kinds of little birdies.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

Finches, hummingbirds, Orioles.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

They're all here. Yeah. It's beautiful. And you know what birds never do?

SPEAKER_05 0:37

Question their approval.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Question their worth. They don't seek approval. They they might fight with each other over the seed.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

Pecking order.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Yeah, they have a little pecking order. But uh yeah, they don't worry if they're good enough.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Do we really know that though?

SPEAKER_00 0:59

So you think the birds are flying around going, oh, I hope I'm flying straight. Nobody notices I'm kind of crooked today. Yeah. Oh, my feathers are not lying flat. I'm worried.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

Yeah. What's Peter gonna think?

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I didn't get my share of the seed this morning. Why wouldn't they let me have my share?

SPEAKER_05 1:20

Yeah. Oh my. But yeah, we're continuing our approval talk.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Talking about approval. Such a huge thing. And it's so, you know, the more we think about it, the more I think about it. It is so deeply fundamental. And it's such a horribly bad habit that we have, eh? When you think about how it motivates us and how our relationships sort of devolve into, you know, just exchanges of people trying to get somebody else to say, I love you. Trying to get somebody else to say

Why We Hand Out Our Worth

SPEAKER_00 2:10

you're wonderful.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

And yeah, you are. You are.

SPEAKER_05 2:18

Yeah. But why do we need somebody else to say that?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

And there's like to me the big first flaw. The big first flaw is that we think somehow that our value, our worth, our the approval of us is a completely external thing.

SPEAKER_05 2:37

And I think that it's not just surface level, oh, I want to be approved of. It really goes down to our very existence. You know, we want to feel like it's okay for us to exist. Like it's a lot deeper than I think anyway. Uh maybe I'm just making stuff up, but like I feel like it's deeper.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

You know, I used to uh I used to think that way. I've got a friend who still struggles with thinking that way. You know, he talks about having been deeply programmed by his mother, and he asks this question of himself, you know, what am I gonna do today to justify my place on the planet?

SPEAKER_05 3:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Like, wow.

SPEAKER_05 3:26

Yeah, it makes me think of I've seen recently like people posting about what would you what would you do if you just had all the money that you needed, right? And people do not not that it's bad, not that I'm saying it or judging it as bad if if you do sit on your butt. But nobody says that. Nobody says that. They say someone was talking about it the other day. I think I might have sent it to you. But people talking about, oh, I'd you know, like I'd go around and mow lawns for free, or I'd go garden for people that couldn't garden, or I'd bake breads and just give them away for free. You know, like people are so creative naturally, and given the chance, they're not gonna sit around. I mean, that might for a little, like a little bit, just to bask in the in the relaxation. They might even sleep for a while because they're just letting go of stresses. But in the end, we want to be doing things.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

And we spend so much time paying attention to others, right? Like we're we're so deeply ingrained that our value is going to be determined by what we do and what others think of that. And even to the point where, you know, I think that we have to acknowledge that we're we're living in a in a marketplace, and everybody earns their survival by contributing to the marketplace. And we actually believe that people are not entitled to survive, that they have to earn their survival. Yeah, and it's just a system that we've created, and that's you know, as systems go, I'm not, you know, I'm not advocating an alternative system. I just think that a system like that, based on the premise, what are you doing to deserve to continue to live? Yeah, right, is really a bad approach. And the fact that we put that approval in the hands of others, yeah. We put the the control, I mean, we really are essentially giving control of our behavior over to others who have a long list of rules. We've talked about rules, they have a long list of rules and things that you have to do to be worthwhile, yeah, to be acceptable in the world, and then we then we'd worry about it.

SPEAKER_05 6:18

Yeah. And that would be their own vision of themselves, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 6:27

I don't think anybody, well, I don't know, painting with a a wide brush here, but don't I don't perceive that anybody who is good with themselves and feels connected and feels like they don't need to prove anything to to exist. I don't think that they're out there saying, oh, you need to approve. You need to approve yourself to exist.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Well, it's funny, okay, because if I don't approve of you, then your approval doesn't matter to me.

SPEAKER_05 7:00

Say that again.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

If I don't approve of you, yeah, then your approval doesn't matter to me. Like we're out there saying whose approval matters to me.

SPEAKER_05 7:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Right? Yeah, who am I gonna listen to if they say, well, you're a goof? Right? Some people we would listen to, yeah, and some people we wouldn't. Some people we want their approval, and other people we want to control them with our approval. And that's really what approval is, right? Yeah, approval is an attempt to control, it's a kind of power, right? You every one of us needs to feel good about ourselves as we enter into the world. It's going to determine how we respond to the world, how we interpret the world, how we view ourselves impacts how we engage in the world.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

And when that is based on, you know, who told me I'm okay, who told me I'm good enough, who told me I'm talented enough, who told me that I'm allowed to do this or that, then I don't engage in the world. In fact, it explains why a lot of people fear the idea that some people will just sit around. Right. And some people do, you know, that they go through that deep healing stage where they say, if I get the chance, I'm just gonna sit and do nothing for a while.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Right. You know, that's we we call that a vacation. Um because outside the vacation, we're just

Survival, Work, And Deserving To Live

SPEAKER_00 8:40

constantly seeking approval.

SPEAKER_05 8:42

Yeah, yeah. Can you drop a thumbs up in the chat if you can hear us? Just checking.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

So I want to talk about sort of this internal, external dynamic of approval. But I want to come back to the the three myths we talked about yesterday. I want to reiterate them. I think there's value in reiterating them. What is what is the issue here? The issue is that we have myths about our worth and our value, right? The first is that my worth can vary, that it can change, that today I can be worthy and tomorrow I won't be. That that what I do is the second myth. What I do determines that worth. Yeah, that it's all about my behavior.

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

And then the third big myth is that I need I need from others that approval. I need others to tell me what my worth is, that that others get to decide, right? And I'm subject to that. These are myths. These just the the the opposite is true. The opposite is the truth. And if you can get there, it's gonna be huge, right? It it's gonna change the way you behave because you know, approval becomes a trade, it becomes a bargain, it becomes an exchange. I approve of you if you approve of me, right? And I'm gonna do the things that get you to approve of me so I can feel better about me. You know, the the truth is your worth is established a long time ago, long before you got into this lifetime. But if we don't want to go woo-woo, your worth is established by being a living being on the planet. I mean, you said something fun this morning. You said you don't see the birds going around seeking approval. Oh, I think you said trees. A tree doesn't grow because it wants approval.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

Uh yeah. I said you don't look at a tree and say, I approve of this tree. It doesn't, and then there was sort of like question, does it need approval? Why would you be the only species on earth that needs to prove your existence?

SPEAKER_00 11:08

I I think to pause and think about that is huge. We have been programmed to think that our worth is in question, but it can't be. Yeah, I always have this conversation with clients. It's a question I always ask them. You know, I say, who decides your worth? And they freeze, right?

SPEAKER_05 11:30

Well, I wonder when when that started. I mean, God, that's a whole rabbit hole deep dive, probably. But what would have started that from going from if this is where we came from for real, like apes and monkeys, which I'm not so sure about. But when would the need for approval start? Now I know looking at, I mean, we watched a documentary a couple of years ago about tribe of monkeys. I I don't know if that's what it's called, but if you weren't approved within community, my God, the it was basically certain death for you.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

Well, we talked about that a few weeks ago or a couple of weeks ago when we talked about needs, right? And we talked about you know Maslow's hierarchy and we talked about the need to belong. And I think that it is very much, you know, we are social beings, you know, we we come out of other beings, and if they don't pick us up and take care of us, we don't survive. We're completely reliant on each other. We we we're very aware that what we can do in groups is so much more powerful than what we can do as individuals. I think that by our nature, we're aware of the connection, and I think our psychology, which in this physical world, our psychology of fear causes us to want to belong, need to belong. Belonging is part of survival, and so you know, there is that, there is that driving a need for approval. You know, I need the group, the tribe, the community, I need the family, these groups of people, I need them to want me to stay. Yeah, and so I see myself as having an obligation to be part of the group. I see myself, and the others of the group see me as having the ability to contribute to the whole and expect me to do so. And so my natural sort of physical human self is always going to be driven to be accepted, to belong, to be approved of in that most fundamental physical way.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

But it becomes no longer a question of how can I help?

unknown 14:11

Right?

SPEAKER_00 14:12

It's not a question of, oh, I got skills, I got ability, how can I help the group thrive? It becomes more of a question of, do I deserve to survive? And somehow that question, you know, the how do I contribute gets shaped into am I good enough? And it's amazing, you know, if I can

Three Myths About Self Worth

SPEAKER_00 14:35

get you to internalize that and trigger inside you that real fear that you will be rejected and excommunicated from the group. Um, I can really control your behavior a lot.

SPEAKER_05 14:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

But how I contribute doesn't have to be a question of my worth. It's not a question of my value. It's a question of what I can contribute. Like, let's contribute, let's all thrive. It's that step into judgment, right? What's your value? Are you worth it? That's judgment. That's not that's not practical.

SPEAKER_05 15:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

It is, you know, the risk of condemnation. And sometimes it's up to the group, you know. I I think there's a there's an importance in the group. I mean, we used to, when we lived in smaller groups, there were elders whose role it was to assign people to tasks based on their abilities, based on their propensities that they showed. Right. And they would guide them and point them in directions where they would go and learn and become that contributing, caring component of our group.

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Yeah, I think uh it all comes down to wanting to feel like you're a part of the community. And you know, I I think well, what I sort of wrote this morning is this idea of oneness. You know, we come from oneness, and we apparently crazy enough wanted want to experience physical physicality, and when we get here, it's very hard to to go from oneness and knowing and feeling and being to this physical body that is separated by flesh, you know, skin that gives this illusion of separation. So we're looking for we're constantly searching at this unknown level to us for this feeling of oneness again. But we turn it around and flip it upside down and jumble it up with being approved of. And so I I want to use the words because I I like them sorry, guys. So so back to you, so it gets mixed up, jumbled as not being one, so to speak, but fitting in with a community, whether it's a contrived one or one you might call authentic is what we're searching for. When uh when the contrived came up, I I didn't know what contrived meant, so I looked it up and it made sense. But I think back to high school, right? These contrived communities where I'm sure there's friendships, I'm sure there's deep friendships, right? But you see these like the popular group and and the not so popular group and all the different kinds of groups that can come out of that. And we are looking for at a level, again, unknown to us, at an unconscious level, really. We're looking, we're we're we're grasping for that oneness. And then we, you know, high school is just an easy example, but it's all throughout life in different ways. But then we go into high school and we we try to fit in and try to find that oneness and and sometimes lose ourselves in that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, I mean, uh it's it's neat to think that we are at our deepest nature, aware in the the deep subconscious of our mind, aware of our our true one nature, that we are, although we're expressing here in these bodies as individuals, we are of a larger whole, and that that causes us then to want to belong, to seek to belong, and then that causes us to form groups, tribes, you know, cliques, friendships that then shape the way we behave because we're afraid of being rejected from the group that we found. And observing, you know, those those groupings, the way we we do things, everything from you know, friends in high school to professions out there in the world, careers, corporations, the way we we belong to something. It's so innate in us to want to belong, to want to connect, to want to be part of a collective, a deep subconscious awareness that we are by our nature meant to be a part of a whole, yeah, and that that drives us.

Belonging, Fear, And The Tribe

SPEAKER_00 20:10

And then we use that deep need to belong to start to control each other's behaviors. Approval is just a way of controlling behavior, and if I make you think that approval is more important than honesty, that approval is more important than genuineness, that approval is more important than your talents and abilities. Pretty soon your talents and abilities are controlled by the group, and the group uses them as a bargain to let you stay. And I think we inherently feel the unfairness in that. You know, a machine for production and consumption. And that's one of the possible outcomes, but there are other possible outcomes, you know. I the first thing that comes to mind, you know, is the Beatles. Right. Here's four guys who like rock and roll, who come together and find magic in their coming together, yeah. And then over a period of time, their individuality wants to express itself, and they're not a group anymore. And they move on and they form other groups. And in fact, clinging to the previous group became painful, yeah. And moving on to the new groups in their unique forms became the new expression. And resulted in beautiful things, beautiful creations, that then those new groups themselves dissolved and reformed with others. You know?

SPEAKER_05 22:14

And I think that's the nature of I think that's the nature of what we're here for and what we're doing and what we should be open to is morphing, is creation, is it is in the morphing that we discover who we are.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

Yeah. I was just about to say it's in the morphing that we protect who we are, that we cultivate who we are. It's saying, okay, this group has been good, but this group has come to its conclusion. There's more I need to express. I have worth unto myself, not just as part of this group, but I have worth unto myself that needs to be expressed. And I'm going to find a new connection, a new oneness. I'm going to find a new way to collaborate and join up with others to be creative again. And it requires a level of belief in yourself, a level of trust in your the consistency of your worth, that your worth is not being determined by the approval of others. It requires the ability to reject the approval of others, the need for the approval of others. And that's just part of growing up, right? Like if you if you're constantly focused on approval, other people own you, and you become somebody who you're not. And you spend your time chasing your tail, trying to become something that you're not.

SPEAKER_05 24:03

Yeah, we we see this all the time in hypnosis. People come to us because they're caught up in this and they know something, or it just feels it gets to the point of feeling so uncomfortable that something needs to change. And as they make changes, I mean, we see this in the I don't know what else to call it, the spiritual community all the time. Uh I'm sure there's a better word for it. But when you start to make changes, when you start to connect to oneness and knowing who you are and not being reliant reliant on other people, other other people's opinions, it can be solitary for a little bit, right? Because your your group that was looking at you for providing them energy, providing them what they need. I mean, all kinds of things. Those people will naturally, they might fight a little bit, but they will naturally drop away if you don't feed that old self any longer. So often, often people talk about relationships uh ending, whether it's friendships or marriages or whatever, and and there is a part of it that is solitary as you gain your energy, as you gain your remembrance of who you are, and then people that are maybe going through the same thing want to express what they're going through or want to just be a friend on that journey, they are suddenly around you, right? I could go into all kinds of levels of that kind of that stuff, uh, but I won't hear.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

I think what it brings us back to is the idea of worth. Right? There's a there's a natural drive to belong, there's a natural drive to connect, there's a natural drive to collaborate, but if our worth is attached to it, then we think that my belonging to this group is what determines my worth. And then we're not willing to move on to other groups. We're not willing to express our authenticity and find ourselves surrounded by new people and new community, and therefore new opportunity and new creative possibilities and new collaborations that head into new directions. We we're stymied because we're trapped in that exchange.

When Groups End And You Grow

SPEAKER_00 26:55

I need you to approve of me, even to the point of I need you to approve of me moving on to somebody else. Right? There's an internal value that I think we've stepped away from, we don't spend enough time on, and that we attach to the group and to what we do. We attach it to those things, right? And that's an error. What I do does not determine my worth. My worth is intact. I am who I am, I have my gifts, my uniqueness, my abilities. I have the ability to contribute to a group, but my worth is never in question. And what I want to do with this, this worthy being might change from time to time. And if, and this is an idea I think that's really important. The way I think of me is the way I think of you, and the way I think of you is the way I think of me. Subconsciously, we know we are the same. And so if I think that my worth can be in question, then I think that your worth can be in question. Yeah. Right. You we have sort of inferiority complexes and superiority complexes, and we can think we're all that in a bag of chips. But what I'm really driving at is not that I think that I'm really, really great, or I think that I'm really, really bad. It's that if I think I'm really, really great, right, then I think of others. I think of life as hierarchy. I think of there's really great people and really lousy people, and really great people should rise to the top and really lousy people should fall to the bottom. That's the way I think of me. That's the way I think of others. If I see myself as inferior, then I go around questioning whether anybody has really got the right to make the decisions that they make. Does anybody really have the talent to really know how to guide us? We question everything, we question authority. If we simply see each individual as intact, as integritus, as being the complete part of the whole that they're meant to be, then we see ourselves that way. And now we're going from a place of worth and not a place of having to earn worth. And now we're free to migrate. We're free to move to the next thing. We're free to become part of new groups, we're free to move forward and connect with others. And it's really about the way I see myself is the way I'll see others. And if I can see, you know, myself as needing approval, I'll see others as needing approval. If I see myself only as the sum of my actions, then I'm going to see others as only the sum of their actions. But if I see everyone, if I see myself as worthy of love always, then I see others as worthy of love always. If I see myself, you know, if I look at what I do and my expressions and my creativity, if I look at that not as who I am, I am not what I do. If I see what I do, my creativity expressions as how I learn and become, I act not to show what I am, I act to become more. I'm out there trying to become more of what I am. And if I see myself that way, then I see you that way. If I see others as out there, not the sum total of everything they've done with judgment and condemnation, but I see others as this constant experiment in becoming. And I see myself as this constant experiment in becoming. Right. And I look at it as such a beautiful work, right? And I think of this phrase in the Tao Ta Ching, and it talks about superiority and inferiority and how they're illusions, and how we all need each other. And it says, what is a good man but a bad man's teacher? And what is a bad man but a good man's job? In other words, we fit together, we need each other, regardless of the judgment you want to place on it. The truth is, how can I be a loving, caring being, if I'm called to be a loving, caring being, without people to love and care for? Right? How can I be a really great friend if there aren't people who need friends?

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:14

How can I be really creative if there isn't a challenge waiting for us to move through?

SPEAKER_04 32:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

And these opposites that we call them are really parts of the whole. And so when I am trying to develop who I think

How You See You Sees Others

SPEAKER_00 32:35

I am, and I'm out there experimenting and learning, right? Then when somebody in my community comes along that is a challenge to me, I look at them as, well, not as you're a problem and we need to get rid of you, because you have value. But maybe your value today is to teach me something. Maybe your value today is to help me develop certain characteristics like compassion or forgiveness. We we click together like pieces of a puzzle all the time. And if I am busy saying to you, you're not good enough for the group, or I don't approve of you, and you've got to get out, then I've lost the opportunity to learn and grow and develop myself by being part of a group with that person. Does this make sense? And it's really about how we see ourselves and how we see others that determines how we interpret this idea of worth. If we come to the table with everybody having value, everybody has worth, everybody is being exactly who they're supposed to be. And all of that is my opportunity to come together with them, then I have a solely different view of approval. I don't know if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 34:02

Yeah, I think it makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

How you see yourself is how you'll see others, and how you see worth is how you'll see worth in others. And your worth is not about what you do, it's about who you are.

SPEAKER_05 34:16

Yeah. In the chat, it was uh said in permanence and ever evolving. You know, hopefully we keep doing that. We are ever evolving. I know people that just want to be done with healing or they'll be they'll be, including myself. I'm not speaking from a guru position here for sure, but you know, you go through healing and then you're done, and you you're done for a while. And I think, oh, I've I've healed all my stuff, and then a year, and then a year passes and something hits you between the eyes. It's like, oh my god, I thought I was done with this. I think it is. I mean, you want to be, you want to be impermanent, you want to be ever-evolving, you want to be constantly working on yourself and not seeing it as a oh, I should be done healing by now, or in five years I'll be done healing. You know, I think it is a lightning, yeah, there is no finish line in the chat. It is uh just feeling lighter and lighter and then having good days, having bad days, and not judging that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

I wonder what the world would look like if we all went around approving of each other. Now, I'm not saying you approve bad things, I'm not saying that. Um, when when you see something that you react to, that's a lesson for you. Right? But if you're out there and you're seeing people try to do things and people are moving forward and sometimes sliding back and trying to accomplish things. What if it was just, you know, I see you and I see your effort and I see the pain you're in, and I see the difficulties you face, and I see you as a person who's engaged in difficulties and difficult times, and your worth is not in question, and your worth is not determined by what you do, and that means it's okay for you to make mistakes, that's okay for you to do things that don't turn out the way you want it. It's okay for you to not contribute today.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

Yeah, I think it's very hard to when we're caught up in our own lives, everything around us is right here in front of us. It's hard to see beyond that to sometimes have compassion. But I think at least what comes through in sessions is that when we release some of that cloud that's around us and we feel more relaxed and we feel more present, there is time, there is moments where suddenly you're looking at somebody that you've had issue with, or yeah, somebody that is causing you trouble

Compassion, Ted Lasso, And Love

SPEAKER_05 37:15

in your mind, and it's easier to see them for what they're going through.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

There's a scene in Ted Lasso.

SPEAKER_05 37:24

There's always a scene in Ted Lasso.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Life according to Lasso. You know, I I uh yeah, I'm I watch that show way too many times.

SPEAKER_05 37:35

I think it's wonderful, I think it's a really wholesome show.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

There's a scene in there where Roy, if you know the show, Roy is doing a press conference and explaining how one of the players acted really, really badly and went charging up into the stands and attacked uh a fan because the fan was being really out of line. Anyway, and Roy says, you know, we never know what's going on in each other's lives. And so when you see somebody do something and it's really like unacceptable, like, oh, it's not good, then rather than approving or disapproving, rather than condemning and judging, it's really about accepting that everyone struggles, everyone suffers, and Roy says, and so to see to see him do that thing that's even though it's so awful, I give him love, you know, and I'll I'll just every once in a while I reveal that I'm uh I'm a student of the Course in Miracles. I I love the Course in Miracles. The Course in Miracles says everything that anyone does is either an expression of love or a call for love, a request for love. Everything falls into one of those two categories. And the only appropriate response to either of those things is love. If they're expressing love, then you express love back. And if they're calling for love because they're suffering, then you give them love back. And while we're busy approving, judging, condemning, including, excluding, allowing, not allowing, with this horrible side effect of affecting people's sense of worth and their value as human beings, we're really missing what's going on. We're just creative beings out there. Everything we do is just an attempt to learn. Everything we do is trying to get better at something, often trying to do something for the first time. And if we are gentle in our approval or disapproval of others, we'll be gentle in our approval or disapproval of ourselves. And we'll actually get the opportunity to recognize that our worth can never change. It was established by our birth. And what is a bad man but a good man's job? What is a good man, but a bad man's teacher?

Final Reflections And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 40:10

We're all interconnected and we're all here to learn and grow from each other.

SPEAKER_05 40:16

I'm gonna use my voice, and text gonna come out. Well, there she is.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

She hears that lilt in your voice and she says, Oh, good, they're done.

SPEAKER_05 40:27

Yeah. Oh my. Well, thanks for hanging out today. And I hope that was helpful in different kinds of ways. Have a lovely day, and we will see you later. You too.