Episode 11: The Legacy Endures 30 Years After Closing, A Conversation with Ed Trippe

In this episode we commemorate the sad 30th Anniversary of Pan American World Airways ceasing operations on December 4, 1991. 

To mark this special milestone, we are joined by Ed Trippe, the youngest son of Pan Am’s legendary founder Juan Trippe and his wife Betty Stettinius Trippe. 

Ed is the founder and chairman of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. 

In December of 1991, shortly after the company his father founded ceased operations, Ed worked tirelessly to preserve the company’s historical documents, artifacts, and archives. 

He was instrumental in finding a permanent depository at the  University of Miami’s Richter Library for the vast treasure trove of Pan Am history to be preserved for future generations of researchers. This collection is one of the most complete corporate archives of a bankrupt company.

Here is the video mentioned in this episode by John F. Clarke (additional video from Jerry Labrusciano) of the departure ceremony of Pan Am’s last (and first) 747-100 N747PA, Clipper Juan T. Trippe, as it departs for the final time from JFK.

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• This three part series may be purchased on a single DVD for $20, plus shipping, from the Pan Am Museum's online store.
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Transcript

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SPEAKER_12 0:15

Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, brought to you by the Pan Am Museum in Garden City, New York. This podcast and our museum are dedicated to celebrating the legacy of the world's most iconic airline, Pan American World Airways. My name is Tom Betty, and I'm the host of this program. Thank you for joining us. The Pan Am Museum Foundation is a nonprofit organization. Our mission statement is to educate, celebrate, and inspire present and future generations by preserving historical and diverse personal stories of Pan American World Airways. Please visit our website for more information at the Panamuseum.org. Again, our website is the Pan Amuseum.org. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. If you are using Apple Podcasts, please consider leaving a review. It will help others discover this program. If you're not familiar with Pan Am, welcome. We are honored to have you here. And for you to learn about what we're all about. If you already know of Pan Am, worked for or flown on the airline, or just love our history, it's good to be with you again. So with that, let's get this episode in the air, so to speak. Welcome aboard your Pan American jet clipper.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Also Henry control arrival. In the meantime, please enjoy the flight, and uh we'll see you make an announcement uh further along the way with update. Thanks for finding with us.

SPEAKER_12 2:31

In this episode, we'll be marking the sad 30th anniversary of Pan American World Airways ceasing operations. And to mark this special milestone, we'll be joined by Ed Tripp, the youngest son of Pan Am's legendary founder Juan Tripp and his wife, Betty Statinius Tripp. Ed is the founder and chairman of our sister organization, the Pan Am Historical Foundation. But first, here's a news clip from WABC on the evening of December 4th, 1991.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Pan Am went out of business and caught some passengers off guard.

SPEAKER_17 3:26

But after putting up $115 million, Delta said it would invest no more. And Pan Am stopped flying at nine o'clock this morning. Pan Am filed for bankruptcy earlier this year, and with the help of Delta, was trying to reorganize as a smaller airline concentrating on Latin America.

SPEAKER_11 4:21

Do you believe this? None of us believe it. We've been shocked.

SPEAKER_17 4:24

Pan Am is the third airline this year to shut down, joining Midway and Eastern. The company, which had 7,500 employees at one time, was the premier airline in the world. It was first with Trans-Pacific and Transatlantic service. Today it all came to an end. Reporting live from Kennedy Airport, Carlos Grande, Channel 7. Eyewitness New.

SPEAKER_12 5:37

The final passenger flight of Pan American World Airways, an airline in the air since 1927, was Flight 436 from Bridgetown Barbados to Miami, Florida, a Boeing 727 named Clipper Goodwill, under the command of Captain Mark S. Pyle with First Officer Robert Knox. Captain Pyle, a former naval aviator, began his commercial aviation career with National Airlines in the early 1970s and joined Pan Am in 1980 after the merger. Let's take a listen to Captain Pyle describe the last revenue flight of the legendary airline. This clip is from the 1992 documentary Death of an American Dream, the Pan Am Story, by Stepping Stone Productions.

SPEAKER_07 6:26

So this is the, I guess you could call it the sister ship of the one I flew my last uh trip in, November 368, which uh I'm told by maintenance is now in the desert. It's been flown out, and this one I assume will be shortly. When they said it's over, this is something that we had prepared for for years of pandemic. Maybe it had been, in my case, 11 years, and my family had wondered from month to month how long the yearline would last. And even though emotionally or mentally prepared, I found myself emotionally unprepared, as I'm sure everybody else did. But we were overwhelmed with the sense of loss, and the ladies on the flight, the flight attendants were overwhelmed with a sense of grief, almost immediately tearful. Everyone with their own thoughts, private thoughts. And uh mine, of course, uh would have ran the full gamut from wow it really happened, even though we knew it would, it finally did, and where do you go, what do you do? And all the way to the sense of enormous loss, and uh an historical airline like Pan American was allowed to fall into the abyss. And then as we approached Miami, of course, we were told by ATC that we were the last. Actually, I guess it wasn't ATC, it was uh the company, uh radio frequency that we used. Pan Off, we called it our operations people, said that we were the last ones. And at first I thought they must be joking. Uh someone, one of my friends or something, had landed before I did, just uh making some kind of a joke out of the day. And then uh the engineer assured me, man, with tears in his eyes, that we were the last flight. And the tower said, Can you do a low pass? Well, I haven't done that since the Navy. So to me, this was fun, if nothing else, when we want us from an earthquake, having briefed the passengers so that they would know what to expect. Um we flew down runway 12 and the one two. About 100 feet with Wats 15 and about 180 and I was not too spectacular. I would have liked it from 250 and smoked it down to city remember. I didn't want any fear amongst the people when we went then they would have tips. So we just did a very nice, easy manager when it'll pass and we'll feel the pullback and feel back around the field. And I think that all of us in the country were doing fairly well with our emotions until we saw the fire trucks that lined up to emergency vehicles. And in my own case, I had no tears, although certainly emotionally shell-shot, no tears until they fired a mother cannon over the airplane. And the final salute to everybody that had ever flown a cannon airplane, as far as I was concerned. At that moment, our crew was representative of everybody who had ever flown in this uniform and in these quicker ships. And I don't mind telling you that at that moment it was difficult to get to the gate and everybody in the back had smoke in their eyes, I guess. And I said, uh guys just uh don't let me bring the wing chip to get this thing to the gate because I couldn't see it very much. Quite emotional. And uh probably will remain etched in my memory for a long time, I would think. I think I would best uh describe Pan American as an elegant, majestic lady who in the years of her glory was very beautiful. And then towards the end of her existence, when she wasn't so beautiful anymore, she was put up at auction and she was stripped of her clothing, one garment at a time. The Pacific, the shuttle, the Atlantic, all of the Pan Am building, the insurance companies, the hotels. One garment until she stood there essentially naked. But before they could sell the final piece and auction her off, she simply died of shame and embarrassment. An elegant lady now of history. And that thought has stuck with me that what a grand lady she was in her time.

SPEAKER_12 11:05

Also on December 4th, 1991, Captain John Marshall and his crew were in Brazil when they received word that the airline went out of business. They were ordered to notify as many company employees as they could, have everyone proceed immediately to the airport, and fly their 747 back to New York as soon as possible when they will be released from duty after arrival. They eventually landed in the early hours of December 5th, and this flight marked the very last Pan Am Clipper, returning to base after the shutdown order. Captain Marshall's story is featured in episode two of the Pan Am podcast. Here's an excerpt of him discussing the final flight.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

We took off and we headed up through the night through Brazil and then up um across um Paramarambo and Portismaine and the Atlantic Coast. And um just for fun, I called up Houston Radio to see that. And they answered right away. And uh I I kept thinking all the way north. What if something happens to the airplane? What if we have to land somewhere? What happens then? What happens to the crew? What happens to the airplane? Will we get any surface? What kind of reception will we get? So anyway. And you can see the city from a long way. And of course we were the only ones in the traffic ladder. Um we turned it runway and 31 left. And uh he said, You're the last one. And every time it was full of people just wanted to be there. And uh he said that I think everybody just almost lost it. I know I did. I looked over to the first officer and he wouldn't look at me. And uh it was supposed to have been his lady anyway, because I flew the airplane down. He would have flown over the back. And I said, I'm really sorry about that I'm taking this one. And so we landed on the 31 left, and they parked us way off in the uh International Rivals building. Yeah, you be there was one lone Delta mechanic there who would there to put the gear pins in and the chocks in and stuff. And they had a rickety old um maintenance ladder that they wheeled up to the to the L1 door. And here were all fifty crews, most of them fight on us tottering down that ladder. And they had one little Volkswagen to take us into the terminal. And uh there was one cousin guy there and he just waved his hand through. And we got to the other side. And there was a little Panam girl there in uniform and she she was bragging into her. She was obviously been crying. And we were wondering how we were gonna get to the crew party line. And she had some little uh sports car. The guys go down there to pick up their cars and then come back and pick up somebody else. It was over the end of the day. And it took a couple of days for it to take in.

SPEAKER_12 14:59

After the airline shut down, all of its planes and other assets were sold off or went to bankruptcy auction. On May 12th, 1992, the last Pan Am 747 at JFK was sold and departed in a farewell ceremony, complete with customary water cannons from fire trucks and a flyby after takeoff. Here's a news clip from News 12, Long Island, about this farewell ceremony.

SPEAKER_15 15:34

You'd think they were saying goodbye to an old friend, but for many that's exactly what this airplane is. It was the first commercial 747 to come off Boeing's assembly line. Pan American Airlines last 747 flight. That's why it's near and dear to so many.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

Everybody here put a lot of sweat into those airplanes. And if we come to an end like this, it's hard, very hard. This is what it was called. Making a name for Pan American and taking people wherever they wanted to go and safety back to the company, and now you know it's just like breaking up a marriage after 50 years.

SPEAKER_15 16:18

Former Pan Am workers and the few who still work for the bankruptcy airlines came to bid farewell to not only their first 747s, but also an era. It was an era that began in 1970 when Pan Am's legendary founder, Juan Shripp, gave Boeing its first contract for 747s. Pan Am's employees will tell you that was the beginning of truly modern aviation.

SPEAKER_16 16:41

Between him and the person who was in charge, Mel Allen, who was in charge of Boeing at the time. This is pretty much how everything started. All the aviation we have today all started for this.

SPEAKER_15 16:51

Those were Pan Am glory days when oil and Margo deregulation and a recession crippled the airline. Pan Am filed for bankruptcy last year and was grounded in December. For workers who had been with the airline for more than 30 years. This was a fitting tribute to not only an airplane but circled the globe 1800 times. Pan American family. She said it's Southern California, where she may fly again, perhaps as a freighter. But this is the last 747 you'll see with Pan Am at Kennedy Airport. Carolyn Guself used 12 Long Island.

SPEAKER_14 17:37

Well, and Carolyn says that of the 2800 Pan Am employees who once worked in JFK, only 75 remain closing out the airline fleet.

SPEAKER_12 17:49

As you heard in the clip, many former Pan Am employees came to JFK Airport to pay their respects to Pan Am, sign their names on the aircraft, and watch the final departure of the last 747 named Clipper 1T Trip. John F. Clark produced a poignant and emotional tribute video to Pan Am and this final departure ceremony. The video has footage of the interior and exterior of the 747 Jumbo Jet registration number N747PA. There is a link to this video in the episode description, and I must admit, as Captain Pyle would say, there was smoke in my eyes when I watched it. Let's take a quick listen.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

I am Clipper1 T Trip. Over 20 years ago, I was born. The first commercial 747 to fly. How proud I was to be delivered to Pan Am. Through the years my wings have spread over the oceans and distant lands. My wheels have felt a touch of foreign soil. Hands of many nations have tended to my needs. Many have walked my aisles in the service of those in my care. In countless ways, Pan Amers have cared for me. Through endless nights and days, you have guided me through the sky. Now my job is done. My task finished. I leave you as proudly as I came to you. My blood is blue, my heart a blue ball. Farewell.

SPEAKER_08 20:23

And right now, that airline is offering more low Eurosaver fares to more of Europe than all of the U.S. airlines combined. Plus, discounts on hotels and rental cars. And that's why people who fly that airline will enjoy themselves more than people who fly other airlines. The airline Panair, the number one airline to Europe.

SPEAKER_12 21:03

He is a graduate of Yale University and worked for Pan Am in the 1960s, stationed in Saigon. He went on to work for Pan Am subsidiary, Intercontinental Hotels. In December of 1991, shortly after the company his father founded ceased operations, Ed worked tirelessly to preserve the company's historical documents, artifacts, and archives. Working with a dedicated team, he founded the Pan Am Historical Foundation and arranged to have the University of Miami's Richter Library be the depository of the vast treasure trove of Pan Am history to be preserved for future generations of researchers. This collection is one of the most complete corporate archives of a bankrupt company. In addition to preserving Pan Am history, Ed organized many memorable Pan Am related adventure trips through the Pan Am Historical Foundation. He has been interviewed many times to Discussing Pan Am history and his legendary father. Recently, he was instrumental in the development of a three-part documentary film about the pioneering days of the airline called Across the Pacific. There is a link in this episode description to purchase this must-see Pan Am documentary. Ed continues to serve as chairman of the Pan Am Historical Foundation, our sister Pan Am organization. He is enjoying retirement with his wife Bobby in Greenwich, Connecticut, and enjoys traveling, spending time with family and friends, and of course, preserving the legacy of Pan American World Airways. Welcome to the Pan Am Podcast, Ed.

SPEAKER_18 22:42

Great to be with you, Tom.

SPEAKER_12 22:44

So before we start, I want to share a story with our listeners. When we started corresponding, I was uh addressing you as Mr. Tripp, and you stopped me and you said, There can be only one Mr. Tripp. Please call me Ed. And I just thought that was a great story that I wanted to share with everyone.

SPEAKER_18 23:04

You know, I've been called Mr. Tripp, and I am over 80 now, so I get called Mr. Tripp more than I like to be, but uh I've always felt I've always been uncomfortable with being called Mr. Tripp when I was, you know, all my career, I just didn't like it. There really was only one Mr. Tripp, and I was used to having people call him Mr. Tripp.

SPEAKER_12 23:25

Well, we're certainly going to talk about him in this episode. So why don't we begin with talking about your mom and your dad? And let's go back to your childhood.

SPEAKER_18 23:34

All right. Well, you know, I was the youngest of four children. So I came came into the world in 1941 when dad was 40, 41, 40, 41 years old. So he was a you know, relatively older father for me. And I, you know, I look at the way I've grown up with my my kids and uh and this generation where we're all much more active. You know, as the youngest in that family, you know, we went skiing when I was nine for probably for the last time. So he was barely 50. And that was sort of the end of it. He was an avid golfer, walked the golf course. But I grew up sort of with a with in a family that was uh you know not terribly active and uh you know, and certainly in today's life, prematurely old, and certainly we lost them prematurely.

SPEAKER_12 24:28

Did your family travel a lot, seeing that your dad was the CEO and chairman of Pan American?

SPEAKER_18 24:36

We didn't travel that much. I mean, I don't you know, compared to how do you measure that, you know, certainly before the pandemic, I seem seems to me we travel a lot more in these these days. It's a lot easier. Um, it was a lot more romantic in those days. But uh I can you know remember, you know, we lived at Ten Gracie Square, New York, uh, Midtown, New York, great apartment and debt. Dad, I could just remember, you know, coming home from school and dad would be in Washington again. And he probably went to Washington twice a week, every other week. And that would seem to be, you know, so in terms of travel, that was his, he was away a fair amount, but it wasn't it wasn't off to exotic places around the world. It was it was back and forth down to Washington. Then of course he had the old B-23 that which was the an old converted bomber, which is a story in itself. Um, that old that old aircraft uh was a workhorse. But uh so that would take that would that would ferry him back and forth, and other pan Ham executives back and forth from New York to Washington. And and uh, but in terms of other travel, um, we didn't travel that much as a family. Maybe, you know, around Christmas we might go to Florida in the old days, uh pre-50s, uh late late 40s. Um, and then we began to go to Bermuda and then and then ultimately uh he developed a property down in the Bahamas, and we used to go down to the Bahamas. But apart from that, you know, there were not uh it was one exotic, wonderful trip to Switzerland skiing in the in, I guess, 1948, 1949. Um, that was really the only international, apart from Bermuda, international trip that I can really remember as a as a child growing up. There weren't there weren't a lot of other trips to Europe or Asia, certainly not. Uh I had the you know the ability, obviously, as I grew grew up to travel more. Um, but we didn't travel as a family. I mean, apart from his frequent trips to Washington, they had their annual director's trip, which would go to someplace in the world, which was usually a you know, with a bunch bunch of uh senior editors and important people in the business community and and board members. So that was an annual trip. He used to go to the Ayata Conference, and I remember actually going with him on one of those trips, probably 1948 or 49, when it was in Paris. But other than that, they didn't travel an awful lot. In the later years, they they had their annual trip out to Seattle and on up to Alaska with with Bill Allen. And Bill Allen put together a whole group of great friends and they'd go salmon fishing. And I think that's where the that famous phrase, you you build it, I'll buy it, I'll build, I'll I'll buy it if you build it with Bill Allen. Uh I think that's where that that phrase came from, that exchange came from, because they were would uh have a wonderful time fishing together.

SPEAKER_12 27:38

Fascinating. So your father, Juan Terry Tripp, the founder of Pan Am, longtime chairman CEO, is legendary in corporate history. Tell us a little bit about the man, the father that you knew.

SPEAKER_18 27:51

He was probably a different father than people knew him as a you know chief executive colleague in the office, uh, in some respects. He had, but in other respects, he had the same the same attributes. He was terribly stubborn. He uh it was he it was his way, and he was very firm about wanting to do things his way, but never raised his voice. Uh, it would be more sort of he had a wonderful expression about saying, Don't you see? And he'd say, Don't you see to you just were blue at listening to it, but it was don't you see? And you finally do see, and you come around to his point of view. But growing up with him, uh, yeah, he he was a very private man. They didn't go out at all, really. I mean, every every night for dinner, and my my my siblings were older than I, so they went away to school and college, and you know, for at least four years, I had the I had the unique pleasure and privilege of being sort of growing up with just my my mother and father and having dinner every every night with them. So it was a family, a family event. Uh dad would get home usually late, late in the evening, uh, 7:30, 8 o'clock. Um, it'd always sit down in his favorite chair next to the fire, and he'd always have a in the old days, uh, usually it was usually a scotch, and my mother would have her uh bourbon. Uh later days it became vodka. But he'd sit there and he'd uh he'd read the paper or read a few things or chat chat with my mother about what was going on, and I'd I'd come down to the living room from doing my homework and he'd ask me about the day, and it was just a normal family conversation. And then we'd go in and have really what was certainly in today's terms of quite a formal dinner. And we would sit down, they had a couple that would live with them, and the woman was the uh the cook, the husband uh served, uh was a waiter served, and also drove dad. They would uh they would serve dinner um and it was nicely set, but in a somewhat formal atmosphere. One of the things I do remember so growing up often was when they wanted something, they wanted to, my parents wanted to discuss something that they didn't want me to know about. It could have been business, it could have been anything, but they'd they'd start to talk French. So my mother actually spoke quite good French, but dad's French was was uh probably my level, which was not very strong. But they would they would they would still chat back and forth in French, trying to communicate about something or other, and I had no idea what it was. And eventually I'd start, I had a little French, and I'd guess, but I just I don't think I ever was close. Well, what one of the things that sort of comes through to me in retrospects was I had no idea at the time that he was as important and had done as much as he had. I mean, I was you know, I was a young boy growing up, and you know, Pan Am was Pan Am, and it was as far as I could tell, it had always been there. And even as I got older, it was sort of it was it was I just accepted it, and I accepted him. And you know, he had had Lindbergh come and spend the weekend with us, and Lindbergh was a really decent guy, just and as approachable as you anybody you could want. So, you know, having having Lindbergh or Hallaby or any any of the sort of famous people at their time come and and spend the weekend with us, it was just it was just normal. There wasn't anything unique about dad. It was he was just a father uh who was clearly very successful.

SPEAKER_12 31:24

Tell us about your mom.

SPEAKER_18 31:26

My mom was an absolute saint. She was a very forceful, very bright person. She used him and used to say that she used to call herself the rugged mom. But she um she she grew up uh with a very successful father who was a partner, JP Morgan, and um affluent, great house in the country. And she'd lived all over the place. She grew up, I guess she was born in Chicago and lived in St. Louis, and then mostly Long Island, Staten Island and Long Island. But her she was very, very close to her father. And a lot of the values that she held were certainly values that came from her father. Obviously, he died, he died when she was 20 years old, 21 years old. He was barely 50, I think. But she was she was very young and had had barely had just met dad. And I think he had had the opportunity to meet Mr. Statinius, but she was much closer to her father than I than she was her mother. Her mother was a very forceful woman, very uh sort of caught up with the social life and being the wife of a partner of Morgan and used to traveling a lot and used to traveling in style. She she didn't, she wasn't, she was definitely not close to her mother and uh losing her father early on. Uh, I mean, even in in her latter years, she used to talk about her father and still sort of think about him. And so that he was had a great influence on her. Uh, but she was a very um probably had the most influence on all of us, the children, all of us uh growing up, uh, because she was, you know, at the constant presence. She didn't believe in having a whole lot of babysitters and help around. She wanted to look after us uh herself to the extent she could. And often, you know, when when uh they would go away and I was left at home, uh I was uh I was shipped off to a cousin's house rather than having a a babysitter or somebody come in and look after me. So it was my my mother's influence on all of us were was profound, and her influence on dad was profound. He was very much a uh uh she was she was very much a a guiding star in terms of keeping him focused on what was important, you know, the mundane things of helping him with remember names. He was useless, absolutely hopeless in remembering people's names. And she had a very good good memory for names and would be at his elbow um introducing herself and therefore saying the people they were meeting their name. So nice to meet you, so and so. So dad, when he had the need, then would repeat back the name.

SPEAKER_12 34:13

That's brilliant. So let's talk about your uncle, your mother's brother, 48th United States Secretary of State and the first United States Ambassador to the United Nations.

SPEAKER_18 34:24

He was um, yeah, I never I I knew Uncle Ed. I met him uh, but he he died when he was 48 years old. So I was, I guess I was eight years old. He spent one of the after he'd uh stepped down after the you know United Nations conference all he and he was beginning to get sick. He he had a very weak heart, eventually died of a heart attack. But he uh he spent uh time at our house in Greenwich and rented a member of a great super yacht on out of Sag Harbor on Long Island. And I remember visiting him with him, and he he had he was a very personable, kind guy. I mean, I don't I don't remember conversations with him, I just remember his gentleness, and maybe that was a function of his his health at the time. But he was uh he was he was clearly a super individual and extra extremely well respected. And the relationship between Ed Statinius and my mother was uh was very, very close. Of all the children, he was the second youngest, and my mother was the youngest. So obviously they they grew up being close as children and remained close all through their lives.

SPEAKER_12 35:33

Let's get back to the love story of your parents. I recently watched Across the Pacific on PBS. It's also available on iTunes to purchase. What a great documentary, three-part documentary. And what really struck me through the whole viewing it is this great love story between your parents.

SPEAKER_18 35:52

It was, you know, that the story is told in Across the Pacific was the the early days. And it was sort of a fascinating, it was a side of dad I never saw before, where he was sort of definitely trying courting somebody showing extreme emotion and and writing in language his letters were very emotional, is very they were real love letters. But he was uh he was struggling when they first met. He was just uh in in the process of leaving colonial air transport and forming Pan American Airways or Aviation Corporation of America, and then merging it with Pan Am. And that whole process involved extensive negotiations with the the two other airlines and his shareholders, and and uh, and of course the post office and the control of the of air route, the mail route to Cuba was you know, that was that was the bacon that made it all work, and the influence that people had. So it was a struggle, it was a difficult time for dad to try to get this airline launched, the financing in place. It was a time in you know, 1920s, late 20s, when uh this was really just you know a year after Lindbergh had had flown the Atlantic. So you can things were the future of aviation at that point was really a very uncertain. It was a young man's game. My grandfather was was failing and died. My grandmother uh was really unsure about this man, Juan Treppi. Seemed very personable, he seemed attractive, uh, clearly a bright, bright young man with a good education, lots of appropriate friends uh who came from the appropriate background, as she would have put it. But uh she was really unsure about whether he was suitable given his this crazy idea about aviation. So she uh she sent my mother away to to France and Europe um to try to forget about him. I guess that's what you did did with uh you know children that you wanted to break up a relationship that wasn't wasn't appropriate or wasn't what you wanted. And the relationship was sound. It was going, it wasn't going anywhere. And uh the the letters between the two of them, these love letters, I mean, they rarely were love letters. They they'd go on for dad would go on for two pages about business issues and the struggles and the problems, and then close saying, you know, how much he missed her and that he was struggling and he couldn't go on without seeing her and wasn't sure the whole effort was worth it. And she would write back and saying, you know, telling him to to to stick with it, that she had confidence in him, she was sure it was going to work, and don't don't think about quitting. So she was there, you know, supporting him. He was so dogged in his determination to make it happen, which was his character. He just was dogged in in terms of trying to make it make it work, bring the people to the table and and make them you know commit commit to the future. But her relationship and her support during all this period was was so symptomatic of the so such a reflection of her relationship with him uh all through their life.

SPEAKER_12 39:13

What did you learn that surprised you in looking at these letters and during the production of this documentary?

SPEAKER_18 39:20

Looking at the letters, I was I was amazed at the emotion that dad exhibited because I never saw it in in later life. And when it was, he was, you know, I I came along, as I said, late late in in he was 41 years old. So a lot of the the love and tenderness and as exhibited as you would expect in a younger couple was um, you know, they'd matured at that point and were much more uh worldly. And but I reading the letters, uh I see this so whole different side of him, which was just really emotional and really uh uh sensitive, which I didn't really see in him um uh as a as an older man, but it was clearly there. I mean, he he was very sensitive about people, so I maybe showed up there. Reading those letters and and and uh seeing it's expressed in the way it was produced in the on the across the Pacific, it was it showed a side of dad that was much more sensitive than the than the man that I remembered uh later in life. Uh and I say that it he expressed it in his letters. He would not have expressed quite the same way in later life the same tenderness, I don't think. But he still had the same care for people and for friends that came through in those letters, as I mean, is the one one the letters were love letters, but they showed they they showed a certain human element that he had all through his life, really when thinking about you know people like Harold Gray and John Leslie and John Gates and Bixby and people who were really so important to the founding of Pan Am and the growth of Pan Am. And they were they were real friends. And he would have done anything for them. And it's that kind of emotion that maybe comes through in the love letters in a in a uh different way because they were love letters, not letters to uh speaking about friends, but there was a tenderness that was there that I saw in later years, but um never saw in this in the same manner that the letters were expressed.

SPEAKER_12 41:47

Let's talk a little bit about you and your siblings. So you have this very successful father that is head of this very famous global company. Were you or any of your siblings wanting to get in the aviation business?

SPEAKER_18 42:02

Both my brother and I were in it. Curiously, we both started out. He started out from after graduated from Harvard Business School. He went, he he immediately went to work in the development end of Intercontinental Hotels and spent two years in Sydney developing the Sydney Intercontinental, which was a I think a wonderful experience for him. Um and curiously, I ended up in a sense following his his his track. I did I didn't sort of anticipate at the time. I also went to Harvard Business School, but I uh had anticipated going to into a career in banking. Uh, and my roommate uh in college uh was killed in Vietnam, and I felt very uh suddenly really very uh strong feeling, and I got that that strong feeling, frankly, came from from dad uh about doing my part, his view of the Tripp family and and what what he needed to do, what his ancestors did in terms of of participating, doing their service for the United States. He was a naval aviator, you know, he had an ancestor, uh won the Navy Cross and Star for Battle of uh Tripoli. Uh actually there are a bunch of of ships named after John Tripp. Lieutenant John Tripp was very important in terms of what he gave to his country and what he therefore, the values that he represented that dad always felt were important, both in terms of uh military service, which he he did. The fact that I didn't have military service and had gone through business school, I went to Yale, I went to Oxford, and then I went to Harvard, and my roommate then was killed in Vietnam. And I felt this huge need, obligation to go and serve my country as well and do something. But I was newly married, six months married, and uh I made a sort of a snap decision. I'm going to give up my uh opportunity that I had the offer I had to go into banking. And uh I must have talked to dad about it because I ended up having a conversation with Jerry O'Donnell, who was vice president of Pan Am for the Pacific Asia Division. He put me in as the first military traffic manager uh for Pan Am in Saigon. That was my military experience. And as I said, I went there largely because my my roommate, a close friend, had been killed uh in Vietnam. And and uh I felt I needed to do my part. My brother uh Charlie, we were talking about you know careers and how you got into Pan Am. He uh he started in Intercontinental, did quite well. He became the chief financial officer, and then there was an opportunity for him to move over into Pan Am into a Treasury function. And uh he moved there, I think, thinking he could make a difference. Could uh he he he, like all of us, had great affection for the company. Uh, but it was absolutely the wrong thing for him to have done. And uh I sometimes say it was the wrong thing for me to have done, but I don't think so. I'm very pleased with sort of the way my career ended up. But for Charlie, it was uh he rose up in Pan Am to vice president of finance uh and then planning, but it was at a time when Pan Am was beginning to to uh to struggle and he had other opportunities that he probably would have been much more successful and much more happy about it had he uh had he taken them.

SPEAKER_12 45:36

Was there at any time any grooming from board members on potentially having a trip be a successor to your father?

SPEAKER_18 45:47

No, there was never. When I was uh other other than the one year I spent with Pan Am and Saigon, uh the rest of my career was with uh Intercontinental, and and of course, Intercontinental was sold. Actually, after it was sold, my my career you know blossomed. So I I was uh at that point, I obviously any any issues of nepotism were gone. I didn't I don't think there was never never any suggestion, any, any thought that uh a trip would succeed. It was it was not a family company. I mean, it was dad may have been the founder, but he was it was not it was not the Ford Motor Company.

SPEAKER_12 46:27

Let's go back to your time in Vietnam. We had Captain Dave Bridges on the program, and he mentioned that he was waiting to take off in a 707, and there was a whole bunch of tracers in the air that him and his co-pilot could see. And once he got clearance from the tower, everything stopped and he was able to take off without incident. Can you share some stories that you experienced while you were in Vietnam?

SPEAKER_18 46:56

We went to, I went to Vietnam first in in uh July, I guess, 1967, right after I'd graduated from business school. Um, I'd been married the year before, and I basically went over to sort of see see what it was all about, where I was going to live, um, whether indeed it was gonna be appropriate to bring my young bride with me. I went over, you know, got briefings along the way, spent time in San Francisco and Hawaii, and then ended up in in Saigon. And I was working there for a guy named Hal Williams, who was the DTSM and Saigon in July, August of 1967 was a you know, there was a war going on, but in Saigon, you thought the war was someplace else. You were conscious of obviously a lot of troop movements and trucks and traffic and the military. Uh, and the airport was a you know, it was a major airport, but it wasn't it wasn't a battleground. The air, the, the, the hospital, you'd see the coffins there, and um you're aware of the war around you, but I can remember staying in the majestic hotel and having drinks. And this was actually after my wife joined me uh in in August or September. Uh, and we we were living in the majestic hotel for a month until we moved into our little little cottage. And uh we'd sit on the roof and we'd watch these this bombing. Uh, they were using World War II planes because they were slow and they could they could come in and just drop drop flares and then bombs on Viet Cong positions. But you could you could literally sit there, drink your gin and tonic, and watch all this war going on across the Mekon River. And it was surreal. But all that changed after Tet offensive. Saigon was, you know, it hadn't been overrun the way it would eventually be overrun, but there were Viet Cong uh cells all over the city, and we were under martial law. The the uh you know the curve curfew at at eight o'clock at night. I was issued a 45, which I kept loaded next to our bed. So it life got very sensitive after that. And uh Bobby, my wife, was was at that point pregnant, so I thought, you know, clearly this is this is not the same life that I brought her over. I think she she's got to get home, uh, at least get home in time to have the child. And so I the tell you the story about going to the airport to send her out. Uh, we missed the convoy, and you used to have to take a convoy to go to the airport. We missed the convoy, and uh I took her, just drove her right right through anyway out to the airport. I got got to the airport and found out that I'd driven right through a firefight. No idea, never saw it, never heard it, but apparently there was a firefight going on near me or around me, around us on a way out. But when we got to the airport, the firefight was, you know, it was not just on the route going out, it was at the airport. And uh we had there were two Pan Am cargo planes, one of which Bobby was going out on, uh sitting on the runway, but everybody was in the bunker uh and the airport was closed down. And you know, before going into the bunker, you could see these old uh the these aircraft, American aircraft at the end of the runway bomb bombing whatever position it was where the uh the mortar rounds or whatever was being lobbed into the airport were coming from. Uh, and that went on for you know probably 25, 30 minutes, and they finally gave us the all clear. And Bobby went out in her big pregnant belly and and got into the got into the plane, was loaded into the cargo, cargo position there behind the cockpit, and uh off she off she went. Uh, and I I think that that plane may have taken some fire on the way out, but I know there I know there were other instances where Pan Am planes and at least one maybe that I was on took took fire, but uh you'd you'd come in very if you're landing at Townsend that you'd come in very steep, very, very high, just come straight down in and uh very fast. It was it was kind of a hairy approach, but people were you know nervous enough about you know being shot, some some some kind of a missile going off. And I don't I don't not sure the ri the risk was all that that great, but um we all took it pretty seriously.

SPEAKER_12 51:28

It's interesting. As far as I know, no one has ever written about this.

SPEAKER_18 51:32

Um, I don't think it ever occurred to anybody. I was I wouldn't have I wouldn't have sought publicity. Um dad was you know, he was it was it was that while I was in Vietnam, actually I remember getting this uh coded cable, and uh it came into me. I you know wasn't sure what it what it was, and uh went to our code book and deciphered it and said, you know, Ed, I'm uh this is just to let you know and don't say anything until you hear it officially, but I'm I'm stepping down as as chairman uh tomorrow morning. And that was the you know first I heard heard that dad was stepping down. But I I know my parents, I don't think were were nervous at all about our being being there. Bobby's parents were were petrified because then what they were reading in the New York Times every day about particularly after after the Tet Offensive about life in Saigon and life in Vietnam and the and and the risks, uh um, they thought we were constantly in the we were in the middle of a war zone. Well, it it was a bit of a war zone, but it wasn't it what we never we never felt any sense of danger. And uh in terms of publicity, I don't think it just it never occurred to anybody that you know why mention I'm here.

SPEAKER_12 52:57

Did your dad send you any other messages while you were there? Was that a a common regular thing?

SPEAKER_18 53:02

No, that was the only one I ever received.

SPEAKER_12 53:06

We're gonna take a quick break with a Panam commercial from 1966.

SPEAKER_09 53:17

When business takes you to New York, take your wife along. Pang Lam flies to New York three times a day from London. Call a Pang Lam travel agent or Pang Lam, the world's most experienced airline.

SPEAKER_12 53:39

Welcome back to our interview with Ed Tripp, marking the sad 30th anniversary of Pan American World Airways shutting down. Let's talk about December 4th, 1991. We are marking a milestone this year, 30 years ago, the company, the pride and joy of your family, the pride and joy of many employees around the world. It still captivates the public's attention and interest and imagination shut down and ceased operations. Walk us through how difficult that was for you and what you did.

SPEAKER_18 54:28

Let me first sort of talk about the 30th anniversary of that. And it's uh and then I can come back, sort of talk about where I was at the at the time I was in London. But um the 30th anniversary is it's it's somewhat bittersweet. It's still it's still hard for me to accept that Pan Am is gone. I mean, there's just so many great memories of the of the airline and our time with it or with Intercontinental or related to it. Uh I saw I was just going through some files the other day, and I know why I happened to see this 1987 timetable. Um, but it was, you know, in front on the front of the timetable it said celebrating 60 years, taking off for 60 more. Yeah, that was, you know, even 87 was was a tough, tough period, but there was still a feeling at the time that 60 more years, it wasn't going away. It shouldn't have gone away. And that's really where I I get the uh yeah, in my my sort of thinking back about Pan Am thing, it just shouldn't have happened. Uh and why did it happen? It just it's it still boggles my mind that Pan Am was allowed to go under. I mean, they even sort of pin the blame on sort of in internally they were huge mistakes, but the external factors were were uh were hard to imagine, though, that they would set the set the groundwork, the external forces. Uh I mean coming out of the war years, the relationship with with Roosevelt uh was so strong, but he was gone. And I think the relationship with Harry Truman was was not good. I sort of think of what happened to to uh to Pan Am in terms of it had been such an important part of the war effort. It was it was just a it was a global airline that had such importance and had done so much for the for the American effort during the war. And its treatment was sort of the way Churchill's was. You know, it was Churchill was suddenly out, and it was a whole new regime. And that really was what was happening in the United States. There was a new regime coming in with new values, new objectives, and uh a much more stronger domestic power base that were supportive of deregulation and uh and supportive of the of the national airlines, the all the local carriers, whether Delta or or Braniff or Northwest or American TWA, all these all these airlines had they had their national US constituencies, their lobbying force behind them. And uh Pan Am didn't have anything. Pan Am was without a country in a sense. And after the war, you know, during the war years, the country was so united behind what Pan Am was doing that it could have done anything. But after that, you know, the CAB became very anti-Pan Am Congress and its domestic efforts to grow the the other airlines, its competition. It just Pan Am was lost, was was was forgotten. It had no, it had had very few people in Washington who would be uh there its spokesperson. So, and of course, the you know the other external factor that was crippling was the recession and in 1970 to 72. And that came on top of this of bringing on the 747, which gave the airline this this huge excess capacity now, growth and ability to serve markets that it had never thought about serving before in lower fares, but it couldn't get the lower fares because of the IATA restrictions. And to some extent, it was blocked by domestic partners as well. And then, of course, the fuel price. Fuel cost doubled it in that recession period. And if you're feeding a 747 uh at twice the cost of fuel, um it was a recipe for a disaster. So all those external factors were there, but they all all should have been overcome. You know, more support from Washington. The internal factors that you know led to the demise were you know, were you can't defend them. They were, you know, the his dad's uh chosen instrument uh objectives. While you know they may have made sense at it at some point during the the war years, and while he thought they were achievable, nobody was sensitive enough to really recognize that politically that was a non-starter after the war. But the chosen instrument image was crippling to the company going in the late 40s and early 50s. And that image of being the chosen instrument, image of its arrogance was uh was one of the things which really uh was crippling to its you know public posturing. The 747 obviously was was a magnificent airplane, and Pan Am's role in ordering that aircraft and seeing it through is is one of the great testaments of what Pan Am should be applauded for, but but it's its timing was could not have been worse. And and it came on because you know Pan Am bought the first 25 and with it a bunch of engines that were problematic. Um and then they, you know, Aliby and Gray, I guess, together were uh were exercised the option for eight more, which was absolute lunacy in hindsight. And I don't know why why in at that point they seemed to think the reit of the recession was going to be earlier and let's let's be aggressive, but uh that that that decision had to be, you know, if not the worst decision, it was one of one of the worst decisions. The sale of the Pacific, um, it was a disaster. And you look at this new 1987 timetable that I that I was referring to before, the 87 timetable showed you know this root structure, which was really unbalanced in terms of a whole domestic system of feeders, feeders to parts of Latin America, but not South America, feeders into Europe, a lot of service into Europe, but it looks like they served virtually every city in the United States. It was not competitive with the domestic trunk carriers that they were they were competing against. That image of the airline in 1987, uh, after the national merger, which was another disaster, that was probably the you know the the final one that really, from in terms of management decisions, was one of the most crippling. Um and of course Lockabee sealed it all. Uh and uh but the fact that Lockabee happened, you know, that just it goes to show what Pan Ann's position was still at that late date. Um it was still the icon of American aviation that it would be the the target of a uh of a terrorist bomb. The 30th anniversary comes and goes, and um I can't look at it without thinking that the uh the airline still should be here. And I I just it's still inconceivably why it isn't here. It collapsed, it closed up under George Bush 41's watch. And uh he was uh he was my father's godson. His his father, Press Bush, Senator Bush, was one of his closest friends, and President Bush 41 was uh was a close friend as well. And yeah, I think he tried he tried all he could, but at that that late stage, I guess it was just it was a non-starter to think about how it could be saved.

SPEAKER_12 1:02:49

But you did spring into action after the company ceased operations, correct?

SPEAKER_18 1:02:56

Yeah, the company when the company closed um Yeah, I at that point was was working in a in a project in Bermuda, which was pretty all-consuming for me at the time. And a group of Pan Am executives uh came to me and said, We've got to we've got to do something to salvage the uh the memorabilia and archives of the company. And we need to, we need to, there wasn't old, there wasn't a Pan Am Foundation that that uh had existed uh prior to Dad's uh demise, and that that had folded. So we needed, we knew, realized we needed to create a new vehicle to acquire the archives, raise, raise money, and uh, and go after them. And uh, you know, we had a we had a a fairly short fuse in terms of the time, but but um enough that we could do what we could had to do. So we formed, you know, the the group involved were Jerry O'Donnell, montgomery, Norm Blake, George Doubleday, Kathleen Clare, of course, was was extremely active. Paul Reutsch was was became extremely active in the effort. But we um we we all joined together and uh and Stan Gewurz was very active at that point too, and formed the corporate. Actually, we took over a an existing foundation that had been set up by a group of Pan Am pilots in in Florida, uh, which they I think had originally had had a hope that they were gonna find an old seaplane and find it on the bottom of the ocean and rebuild it. And that was the purpose of the foundation, but they were happy to that effort was not going anywhere, and they were happy just to turn that turn that foundation over to us, and we renamed it the Pan Am Historical Foundation. But our efforts at from the outset were uh find out what was going on and and uh the Pan Am you know group that they were steering the the uh the bankruptcy were very helpful to us and guiding us along the way. But there was a lot of interest in the Pan Am memorabilia and archives, and that clearly the bankruptcy court was was not going to give us a you know an inside deal. And it became clear after we researched it that we were this was going to be a an effort beyond our financial capability on our own, and we needed partners. And we found early on that the University of Miami Richter Library was one of the one of the groups that were most interested in in the uh the the archive collection. And of course, we didn't if we had no interest in no capability in managing the archives once we if were able to acquaint them so we we needed a partner so we we joint ventured with the University of Miami Richter Library and and History Miami to acquire the archives and we probably put up the lion's shear and um the university put up a significant amount and uh we were successful and suddenly found ourselves looking at several hundred file boxes of Pan Am memorabilia archives in a New Jersey warehouse and what do we do with it now and that was a whole nother saga we we suddenly found ourselves having having won the won the uh the auction been successful in the bankruptcy proceedings and uh had in our hand uh these archives which were all sit sitting in a warehouse in New Jersey several warehouses actually uh but there were hundreds of file boxes and we didn't know what was in them Paul Reutsch and Kathleen Clare together uh organized these teams of of Pan Am people who would go out there and take a bus out every once a week and uh we'd have sandwiches and coffee and we would organize the the file boxes so that each one was opened and each one was cataloged and uh we knew what was in it and then we'd start to go through it and uh only the only the most important stuff was salvaged and there were you know hundreds of you know ticket files and lot of a lot of marketing materials which really didn't have a a long-term future but uh in among all these papers they would suddenly find a a Lindberg letter or a letter about some accident in the you know in the in the Pacific in 1938 um or 40 or something about music or something they were they these gems would show up uh and when they whenever we found a gem uh we'd have almost a celebration and but everybody would clap and hoot and hurrah and but it was a it was a wonderful effort that went on for months until we were able to reduce the uh the hundreds of file boxes down to about 40 40 or 50 which we then sent on down to the University of Miami and it is now the uh foundation of the it's the core of the their their Pan Am library history of what what is gives a a very complete corporate review corporate history of um how the airline was operated from its beginning to uh to the end it's quite it's it's an a amazingly uh complete archive of of a corporation history you mentioned Kathleen Clare a couple times can you uh share with our listeners who she was Kathleen Clare was was dad's assistant i mean she she was called a secretary she was definitely his his assistant and she joined joined him in I think about 1938 uh she used to tell a story about uh she had a friend in Pan Am personnel who called her up and said I need I need I need to get people in here to be interviewed for this job in the boss's office and uh you don't have to take the job but come over and at least be be interviewed because I need to show that I'm I'm I'm making progress. So she came over and and uh she had this short interview with dad and uh went on for short it went on for an hour or so which was long for a for a meeting with Juan trip and at the end of it he said well you know when can you when can you start? And she said why what do you mean when can I start? I've got a job I can't start I can't start I have to give notice and I'm not sure what the job is and he said well you're gonna be my assistant he um she said well I let me think about it and he said well don't think too long but when can you start? Well I could give notice well can you start next week well she said well maybe I could come in next week and at least uh meet some people he said well come in next next Tuesday and uh I'll show you your desk and it was not quite that in those words but that was the gist of it and uh she's came back and she said she went on for the next 40 50 years whatever it was with with 40 years with dad and they were the best years of her life. She she was an absolutely magnificent person. She had this incredible loyalty to to him and in terms of her confidence she had a she had a photographic mind that could remember everything and uh so obviously for him it was it was an amazing resource um and for us with the foundation she was an amazing resource because anything we had a question we were trying to you know we made had a couple of false starts trying to create a documentary film and um we'd meet with producers and we'd we'd have questions would come up and Kathleen would always have the answer. So but she was uh she was an extraordinary person she lived till she was a hundred years old and she was as sharp almost at the end as she was uh 60 years earlier fascinating so what is it about Pan Am that still captures uh the public's attention after all these years I think Pan Am was uh it it was the first airline that really saw the future in in international aviation saw the future of aviation and did something about it they just they were so committed early on uh to to developing navigation developing aircraft that could cross the oceans i mean one of one of dad's I mean I remember him talking about this but one one of his sort of fundamental theses about aviation and commercial aviation was you need to keep pushing the envelope to have the have find air airplanes that could fly farther carry bigger payloads um and go faster and uh Pan Am's record over the years it's its history over the years of you know from the from the earliest flying boats to the to the 747 it was a succession of amazing aircraft that were introduced and each one of those aircraft were a you know a testament to their its time in in the aviation history the old the older ones uh you know were uh in a in an age when aviation was uh yeah an adventure it was a it was a trap traveling whether you were traveling in economy or traveling first class uh you dressed up you put on a coat and tie and travel was was was fun and today it's very different it was very different than the travel we know today when it's really just a commodity of trying to get into a plane and get get taken someplace there's no joy in it but the old the old pan uh which it is remembered for with its its uh uh wonderful aircraft and wonderful service and the experience of flying uh in in the 40s and the 50s and the 60s and even 70s um were was really uh at a period when aviation was growing so fast and changing and that's what why pan is remembered they they went through all these different ages of brought so much to to the industry i think that's why that's why it has a legacy what message do you have for young people because right now if you are younger than the age of 30 you would never have had an opportunity to fly on Pan Am.

SPEAKER_12 1:14:27

What message do you have for younger people on why Pan Am history is important?

SPEAKER_18 1:14:35

The history is important because it's it's an example over a fairly long period of time of a company that grew and changed the world I mean it's its whole mission was social it was wanted to bring the the world closer together um and it used a technology which in its infancy was really uh very crude and over time that that industry evolved into something pretty sophisticated. It was important because Pan Am was a uh particularly if you're an American Pan Am was an icon of America at its greatest period uh and it was an example of industry engineering growth power at a time when when United States was becoming a world power had become a world power and Pan Am was the leader in extending that image it was such a forceful company in terms of its position in the marketplace internationally and that's why it's unique today. I mean there's you know you can look at look at some of the technology companies and yes they have they have made the same type of impression on the world market that Pan Am made in the 40s 50s and 60s 70s their imprint has been relatively short in terms of the timeline.

SPEAKER_12 1:16:13

Pan Am's just kept going one new generation of aircraft after another one new generation of technology you know think of think of the first time jets were introduced into into commercial aviation it was it was monumental what the change was so today we have the Pan Am Museum the Pan Am Historical Foundation uh History Miami Richter Library there are collections at Duke University and countless others our sister museum in Ireland the Foynes Flying Boat Museum and on and on there are countless books about your father countless books about Pan Am the employees the former employees of of Pan Am are extremely loyal and extremely tight with each other their bond will never be broken.

SPEAKER_18 1:17:11

How does all of this make you feel the legacy of your dad looking back yes the company is no longer around but the impact the company has had on thousands and thousands of people around the world it's an amazing story and and to see the the history of Pan Am remembered in in all these institutions that that are committed to to its memory it's fantastic for me to see that this dream this dream that he had dad had um has has not been forgotten. I mean it's it's bittersweet because it's not here anymore and it should be here. I look at at uh prime TV and I see the Pan Am series there still being shown and and uh it's great to see that the you know this the pictures of the Pan Am aircraft the the rural port all those things but Pan Am is remembered and uh it's going to be a challenge to keep it going because uh it's its memory today is preserved by those who were so involved with it in the in its last years or you know the last 20 years of its life or last 40 years whatever um they are they all remember it and they all remember it once they're gone uh it's hard to know other than the memory will exist in in institutions like the Richter Library like San Francisco like the Museum Foundation at the Cradle of Aviation Foines I mean all the all these these are one wonderful institutions which will preserve it but it's hard it gets harder um as the generation passes that we're the last of the Pan Ammers and it's a real challenge after after we're all gone how do how do we keep this legacy going? Because it's it's a legacy that will endure on its own because it's such a phenomenal story. But its legs are are weakened without the the members of the community that were made Pan Am at the end. Anything else you'd like to add to this interview and one thing I probably should talk a bit about Pan Am was so much of Dad's life but it was by no means his whole life. He you know particularly in the latter years as he began to shed some of the management responsibilities onto others. He took on other roles in business um and education he was a very active on the Yale Corporation the latter part of his whole life and um Yale meant a great deal to him he was one of the more active members on the Chrysler Corporation board there's actually a wonderful story about how he how he ends up getting on the Chrysler board. In the 30s of course they had their offices in the Chryster building I think on the about the 45th floor and Chrysler had its own headquarters in the building and he he was out at lunch one day and walks into the elevator and Walter Chrysler walks in right after him and he's got something under his under his coat that he's covering up dad says said said to Walter Chryst what's that under your under your coat there and he said well you know come on come on up to my floor and get off and I'll show it to you and uh he he goes gets off of the Chryster floor and and uh Walter Chrysler opens up takes the coat off this package and shows him the the the next year must have been a sort of a 1939 or 38 new Chrysler car that's about to come out um or it's at least in the design stage and he dad takes a look at him he said well you know I bet you my hat um that that'll go faster backwards than it will forward and Walter Chrysler looked at him askew and said what what are you what are you talking about? He said I just let me let's let's take it and put it in in a in a wind tunnel and and test it but I bet you my hat that or your hat that it'll go faster backwards than it will forward and uh they did that and indeed it went faster backward than it did forward because it was a shape of the car was the opposite of a wing and uh they uh over time I guess changed that but uh out of that meeting uh dad was asked to come on the Chrysler Corporation board uh and in later years much later years in the in the 50s uh Chrysler went through a terrible period several periods which were difficult but this was one of their first and and uh he ended up spending the better part of a six months or a year reorganizing Chrysler and at the end of it he was asked actually asked to whether he would take the position as as CEO of Chrysler and uh and leave Pan An and of course he declined and that was one of the Chrysler Chrysler was important to him the MetLife board was important to him and uh the business council the business council was probably gave him more entree into Washington than any other activity that he could have had and but he took took his responsibilities on the business council with other chief executives um very seriously and they were advisors to presidents and some presidents took their counsel and paid attention others didn't pay as much but uh those were those were all activities and then of course he got in later years he got involved in a project in Bermuda and and and then the one in in the Bahamas which uh neither neither one turned out to be terribly successful or quite unsuccessful. How involved was he uh during the 1970s when Pan Am was struggling with he was involved when Hallaby was taking over and Gray was giving up his position and gray gray of course was uh was quite sick at that point with cancer he became very involved with the group who were were unhappy with the direction hallaby was going hallaby was really an interesting guy he was yeah he was unf he was a very capable guy a very smart guy but the wrong guy at the wrong time in a robust economy with a growth that clearly they thought they were gonna have when they ordered the 747 hallaby would have been a a very a very good chief executive in my judgment he was personable bright articulate um and had really some very good good qualities but he's he uh he was not a good person to run a company that needed to be contracted needed to squeeze down needed to needed to adjust um for the for the future so in any case dad was dad was was very involved in in uh at that point leading up to to halliby's being removed and and bill sewell coming in after bill sewell had he was really not uh not active at all i mean he he'd pay attention he was interested like to know what was going on he was certainly briefed but he he was not at all influential did he ever express any anger or disappointment in some of the decisions that were made by not sure he was there for any of the the really bad decisions the the national one I don't think he really I think he understood it and probably uh appreciated it but he didn't I never heard him express an anything negative about that I think he was not I think he'd gone by the time he died by the time the Pacific was sold and clearly the sale of the Pan Am building and Intercontinental and all of the other major assets the company was he was he was long gone at that point.

SPEAKER_12 1:25:12

How would you like your parents to be remembered?

SPEAKER_18 1:25:16

Oh I think they're I think they're remembered well the way they have have been recorded.

SPEAKER_12 1:25:22

They are uh dad dad is the visionary my mother is the you know strong uh silent not so silent at times partner well sir it's been a pleasure interviewing you and an honor I want to thank you for your time we definitely appreciate it at the Pan Am Museum we we wish you all the the best well thank you I have enjoyed participating in this recording it's uh it's always fun to talk about Pan Am and and uh I wish you and the museum well in in these uh podcasts thank you so much Pan Am was a pioneer in air travel and still stands as one of the most iconic and innovative airlines in aviation history that legacy lives on at the Pan Am Museum in Garden City New York where you can explore the rich history of the aircrafts and individuals at the heart of the company known as the world's most experienced airline for more information about the Pan Am Museum check out our website at www.thepan Ammuseum dot org you can also find us on Facebook Twitter and Instagram as was once a tagline in one of our commercials we would greatly appreciate your support to help the Pan Am Museum continue making the going great you can also support the museum by shopping on our online store for all things Pan Am accessories apparel jewelry books models and posters we want to hear from you if you have a question for us or want to share your story our email address is podcast at the Pan Ammuseum dot org. And with that we're going to close out this episode with a flight announcement from Captain Mark Pyle followed by the Pan Am theme You Can't Beat the Experience that was played on all wide body aircraft during boarding and deplaning throughout the 1980s up until closing in 1991. As flight crews once said to passengers departing for their destinations around the world thank you for flying Pan Amor ladies and gentlemen this is the captain speaking one two three