Freedom Demands Courage: A Broker’s Path To Real Autonomy

Waiting on one case to land shouldn’t decide your future. Craig sits down with returning guest Leigh Rowland to unpack how a broker can build real stability by diversifying income, owning more of the funnel, and joining a community that actually mirrors the self-employed reality. From launching Fear Financial—a network run by self-employed founders—to opening a plain-speaking estate agency, Leigh walks through the decisions, systems, and setbacks that turned fear into freedom.

We dig into the messy middle of going self-employed: the cash-flow lag, the pressure at months three to six, and the temptation of “quick fixes” that cost more than they promise. Leigh shares a pivotal moment when one delayed protection case nearly ended his run, and why patience, pipeline, and protection depth are the antidote to panic. We also explore why many brokers feel boxed in under corporate-style networks, and how a values-led alternative with clear communication and zero vanity targets can change the game.

You’ll hear how simplicity and honesty win local markets, why equity release belongs in your diversification plan, and how complementary teams—spanning social, operations, and compliance—create compounding momentum. Most importantly, we highlight a practical pathway for new and transitioning advisors: mentoring, community support, and steady, foundation-first growth instead of empty slogans and moving goalposts.

If you’re a mortgage broker craving autonomy, community, and a smarter way to grow—without selling your soul—this is your map. Subscribe, share with a broker who needs a lift, and leave a review with the one income stream you’ll add this quarter. Ready to run your own race?

I help employed mortgage brokers go self-employed with clarity, confidence and one-to-one mentoring. Find out how Pathways or Coaching works at craigskelton.co.uk

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Catch-Up

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi, and welcome to this week's The Mortgage Broker broadcast. My guest this week is Lee Rowland. And Lee's back on the podcast. He's been on the podcast quite a few times. First guest appearance was in August 2021, so four and a half years ago. And then most recently in January 2025. So he's been on the podcast a few times. And I also wanted to get Lee back on just to update in terms of where he's at, what he's been doing, what he's up to, talk about as well the stage and so they're set up and diverse, find his income in a little bit as well, because obviously that follows on nicely from what I've been talking about recently. And yeah, and just have a quick chat about um the network he's set up. Um we both have set up together uh with regards to appointed representatives and the reason behind that. And uh yeah, and just good to have a uh a chat and a catch-up. So let's just get Lee onto the podcast. So welcome back onto the podcast, Lee. How are you? Very well, thanks, Craig. Keeping well, how are you keeping in? Yeah, very good, thank you. Very good, thank you, and appreciate you taking time out of your uh multi-business lifestyle uh to uh come back on the podcast because you are. I think this is I think you it's fair to say you are the guest appearance winner so far on this podcast. You have got the most chokes up on the choke board in terms of guest appearances on the mortgage broker broadcast. So, well, congratulations, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

Oh, thank you very much. It's always great. It is great to come on. I w I have been on a few times overnight, because I think you even let me you trusted me to do a couple of series as well, which was the mortgage bullet and also habits, uh the habit series as well. I don't know if you remember quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did we did the habits series January 24. That was yeah, January 2024. So two years over two years ago, we did the habit uh mini series. So so yeah, you have. The first the first one was in August 2021, which is obviously four and a half years ago, five years this year, when you were sort of in your garden. I'm sure you were in your garden on the first one. I'm sure you were in your garden or something trying to get phone signal in terms of recording the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

So if you remember the dog was barking, the dog was barking from next door, and I it was just it was actually all right, but yeah, I was out in the garden, didn't have any signal before you say anything. Yes, I was in Wales, but and the signal was rubbish, but we haven't got signal now.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, because it there's a guy outside peddling his bike, like on the chat. Lee, for those that haven't listened to the upteen episodes of the mortgage broker broadcast, you want to just get a brief introduction of um who you are? Obviously, you've already said you're in South Wales, so that's uh that's one thing already.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah, I'll try and be as brief as possible because uh it'd be quite boring otherwise. I think if you just take it from 2018, uh qualified to be a mortgage broker, worked uh uh in a directly authorised company, uh, then I moved into a company which was under a network, and then I moved to be coached by yourself and uh my brand my way, which was coached by yourself, but overall there was a network on top of that. Then I had a limited company, Mortges Made Easy, which was there, and then through discussions with yourself, I always fancied going directly authorized, and um with your guidance and partnership work, which we might come on to later, I suppose. Uh we I suppose then worked that we're gonna have a company called Fear Financial, uh where I was the sh I was the main shareholder, you were the other you were the main shareholder, but I was the director. Is that correct? Is that a is that yes, yes, yeah. Set us that a bit a bit, and then we named Fear, I think, back in April 2023.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, 20, yeah, well, yeah, wow, it was a few years ago. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, and I think then we finally were directly authorized in December 2024.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Yes, yeah, that's it, yeah, true. Yes. It's been a bit of a long process then.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

No, it wasn't, it's because we were so good at naming the company, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yeah, yeah.

Launching Fear Financial

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Named the company in 10 seconds, and then we had to put some plans in place, obviously. And we wanted to do it properly, if you remember, we didn't want to rush it. Um, and we were sort of learning as we were going as well, which is quite interesting. But the um the anyway, the directly authorised company is called Fear Financial, been trading since like December 2024, and um, yeah, so that's the mortgage side of things. Um, also opened uh what estate agency with my business partner Michael Osborne, April 2025, called Property Hotspot Sales. Wow, that's coming for a year then.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Wow, that's coming up for a year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Um might touch on that later. That's been a hell of a learning experience, that one. And then I'm still coaching the football team, still set on the board of the charity. Um, yeah, so keep and still got a beautiful wife and beautiful children, so I've been keeping myself busy.

Building An Estate Agency From Scratch

SPEAKER_00 5:08

To be fair, it's um, yeah, you've got plenty uh going on, which we'll get into. I think like I think they say it's good to get into the conversations and talk about what we'll talk about fair financial, um, we'll talk about because I think it just flows nicely from the conversations I've been having and discussions and the podcasts as well about diversifying income as a mortgage broker and sort of not just looking at with I touched on it last week again in terms of a change in mindset and way of thinking. But if you look at all the podcasts so far this year, it's all about sort of diversifying, thinking different. If you are just a a PT mortgage broker, you will struggle long term in terms of the way things are sort of going. So, um, so yeah, I think let's let's are you okay? Let's get into the estate agency. Is that all right?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Because I think that's sort of good timing in terms of the yeah, whatever whatever you I'm as you know, I'm open, but I'll I'll talk about absolutely anything you want me to. What what the estate agency good good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

No, I think that I thanks for trusting me with the uh the no agenda and sort of getting straight into that. So uh I think as I say to diverse in terms of I think just to set the scene a little bit, a lot of um brokers will get into the world of mortgage brokers self-employed, whether they're working for a firm or running their own business, coming from that corporate estate agency background, which tends to be quite I followed that path. I know you didn't, but like my I followed the path of estate agency into then self-employed. A lot of brokers will follow that route. And so it's quite brave to think, you know what, I'm gonna be I've got this limited company, I've got a network, I've got this business, different businesses going on. But one of the things, and so one of the things that brokers talk about is trying to get into estate agents, targeting local estate agents, lead generation, thing like that. But do you know what? And you've sort of gone, do you know what? No, I'll just I'll just set the whole thing up and do that anyway. So what was it? So how was that? You said I said with your business partner Mike, Mike Osborne, who like how did this all sort of come about with the estate agency?

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Um, well, exactly. I would I never really wanted to work with an estate agency because I just thought it was too much, they were too much of a pain in the ass. Um I'd start her in a bit because I thought it would be a good one. Say how it is. I just couldn't be part, I just couldn't be asked for it or you know, qualifying things and they're not coming through and they're presserizing you. But then when I said that um Morg is made easy before fear was born, I did have um a local estate agency who and she was very good, but it just didn't in the long run, it just didn't work out for one reason or another. I think it was mostly around communication, to be honest with you, Craig. And so that relationship just ended, no drama, you know, it was just ended, one of those just fizzled out. And Mike and I we share at like a building, and he's got a property development business and a lettance agency, and I had the mortgage business, and we just sat outside one day outside the property hotspot, and we knew it was going to be like an all-encompassing uh building for property, you know, for anything you want to do with property. Hopefully, people who think property think hotspot. That was the actual thing about it.

unknown 8:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Yeah, well, that was the whole thing. So locally, people might think property, think property, think hotspot. Do you know what I mean? And then contact one of the team or myself or whatever. That was the thinking behind the name. Okay. It's quite generic as well, so it could be sort of put out to other areas as well if you had like a property hotspot Cardiff, for example, um, in the future. But anyway, that's a different story. So uh yeah, just we I had loads of inquiries, people wanted to know how much they could borrow and where the houses were, and they were tech they were sort of sending me properties back and forth anyway. And um, then people saying, 'I'm gonna sell my house,' and in the Mike and I just said, Well, we just well do this ourselves. Just well do it ourselves. Um, I talked to you about um you you advised me, you said, mate, it's a great idea. And so then we well, you did.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

I do, I do remember that. Yeah, you can't you're trying to blame me now, aren't you? To sort of say, well, no, no, no, not at all.

Strategy: Simplicity And Trust

SPEAKER_02 9:13

Um and so and so then Mike, thankfully, Mike um Mike looked into the systems and uh uh the the CRM, how we how would how the actu it would actually work, and his wife is within that sector as well, Charlene, and she's fantastic. Um I I've got quite a good um local network, if you like, um on social media, which has sort of served me well, you know, with regards to business, let's just call it overall business. People have been very kind to me, you know, shared my stuff, liked my stuff, and recommended me. And then we've also got Jordan, who people might know because I've tagged him in everything, and and Luke as well, who does the social media side of things and modern media marketing. And as a team, we just came together and just worked out a strategy of how we're gonna do it. And um, the strategy really was that larger corporate estate agents who are gonna watch this and they're not gonna like me very much, seem to have a sort of one size I say fits all or fits no one, I don't know, where they just keep with a certain jargon, certain certain way of working. And I think that especially in South Wales, people just had enough, just had enough of the complete, like not not not lies, I wouldn't say lies, just like fabrication or um just just not telling the not not being real with people, not speaking the language. It's a bit like when it comes to mortgages when I was sort of involved in mm, it was not about jargon, it was just about simplifying things for the general public, and so we wanted to be sort of um real people selling real houses to real people, um without any tricks, without any um messing about, it is what it is, type of um attitude, and because maybe because of our location, people appreciate it rather than sort of a different approach. And there are some amazing, I'm not saying it's just us, there's some amazing agents, estate agents locally who do exactly the same. There were some amazing ones, and that that's the truth. Uh, but that was our sort of strategy was right. Well, if everyone, if the majority of people are not treating people like greatly, um the massive people, because we had some horror stories, that's what really got me passionate about it. Like I I won't go into it, but there were a few stories of vulnerable people who were left high and dry, really. And you know me, Craig, I can't handle at all. I can't handle vulnerable people being stressed out, even alone anything else. And so um we thought we'd just go in and simplify it, tell people the truth, and sell some houses. And uh that was how it that's that's that's how it went. And so I sort of do the social media side of things, the content, Luke makes all the good stuff happen, and then between us as a team, we're doing the viewings, valuations, or whatever. Yeah, we got three, we got three more going on this week now. It's not massive numbers, but it's a bit like um everything that you do really, if it can grow uh naturally, I suppose, without it being forced, then you sort of grow at the same speed that the business is growing, and um gives you gives you some good stability. And I mean I'm learning, I'll tell you what, I I learned that I learned a few things this week which uh which I'll take with me forward now because um it's a little bit different to the more regulated world of mortgages, let's say.

The Reality Of Going Self-Employed

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I think that's like that's there's two messages that I'm getting from that, which clearly is quite of how you are as a human being and part of your values and things like that, which is simplifying things in terms of the way that it doesn't need to be overcomplicated, and that's probably we'll talk about mortgage meetings, we'll talk about fear and everything else a lot along with that. But I think, like I say, it is it is simplifying that from that point of view, and then the other part of it is that spotting the opportunity, so just going with it rather than think you if you would have said eight years ago, if I if you were on this podcast in August 2021, we'll go we'll go sooner than that. So we'll say August 21, because that was the first time you were on this podcast. If I'd have said to you rightly, you're gonna be on the podcast in four and a half years' time, you're gonna have mortgage made easy, is where it's is is absolutely flame. You've got a mortgage network with a bunch of representatives, you've got a Lettings Agency, you've got an estate agency, and you've got a high street brand on the main high street in the place where you live, which is the one-stop shop, which is the property hotspot where people go to when they think about everything to do with buying, selling home and moving. I'm sure you wouldn't have thought, yeah, that was part unless it was part of the plan or not part of the plan. I'm gonna say it's not part of the plan, I think, from how you've fallen into these things.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

No, but you've got to take uh you've got to take opportunities way up the risk and go to get involved with it, haven't you? Really? Um we're not uh I Craig, I I don't I can't let you just leave it there because we're you know we got a long, long way to go yet with all of these things. You know, we got a long way to go. But all you like I said earlier, we can do is start it off, grow it naturally, and fingers crossed, if you look at the long term, which I think you're you mentioned about brokers earlier, didn't you, just doing PTs and stuff like that.

unknown 14:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

If you look at the long term in the bigger picture, um you I I've always believed in sort of multiple income streams anyway, because if that one income stream gets cut off, then you or even just reduces, then you you you've got problems, haven't you? So it's attractive to me. I like new chat. I like you know me, I like a challenge as well. Um wondered if I could do it with the estate agency. And at the moment I'd probably say I'm just about winning on points.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Just depending on what day you ask. What depends on what day it is, is that how you feel how you feel?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Yeah, it's just um it's just so sort of um fast changing and past fast pace, but with you've got very like some things just happen with you've gone no control over um and that's that. That's just the way it is, and you've just got to start to accept that, which is tricky when you haven't been used to it. But yeah, just learning process.

unknown 15:25

Yeah.

Mindset, Comparisons, And Resilience

SPEAKER_00 15:25

I think that's it, like you say, if you it's just learning to as I'm you know that I'm a fan believer in just focusing on what you can control and and worrying about that and not worrying too much about the other noise, shall we say, that goes on. Obviously, you can try and influence things, but within certain things that you can influence, but ultimately, I just think about it, just screams the whole thing of being brave, which is what we have all like everybody who goes self-employed, everybody who steps out of the comfort zone, everybody that sort of does something that actually scares them, makes them nervous, worries them, and all the rest of it, and all the emotions that come with that, is just about being brave. And I think that's a that's the thing with it, is just it's one of those where you looking back, like you say, you've been honest and sort of say you're not the end product in any way, shape, or form. You know you've got and that's the beauty of our industry. That's the industry as yet. Like we will never, I talk about people that come into the industry, come from other industries, and they struggle because they sort of that well with in my but within six months. I want to know everything about being a mortgage broker inside, and that that's because that's the world they'd come to because they've been selling this or doing that. This never it's a a product, like I know mortgages is a product, but there's so many sort of different ratios within the mortgage world that which which you can't control, and you you will you continuously learning. So that's where people come into broken and think, I want to learn everything, I want to know everything, I want to be confident, I want to know my job inside our bags front by within six months, and then they leave the industry because they've not been able to achieve that. It's just you've got to embed like we're we all learn every single day. Like we like even like like even now, we we will learn something new today about what we do, and and that's what's that's the beauty of this industry.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

It is, it is, and I think boys I've got I was on another podcast about a week two weeks ago, and we just talk about business in general, right? And I just said exactly what you said, doesn't matter what industry it is or sector, if you go self-employed, you've got your own limited company, right? And you put yourself out there, that's that's that it's a in you've got so much respect for people who do it, just to take that step to do it, because you've got to put yourself out there, and you've sort of got to be on social media taking it as well, really. If you're gonna promote yourself, you've got to take it. And so it's really brave. And then and then you like you're saying, I love it. I I pinched it the other day, didn't I? I told you uh you've got to run your own race, haven't you? Don't don't don't look over your shoulder at other people, don't don't worry about what other people are doing, just take it at right. Oh, you go run your own race at your own pace.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Well, you just cut is that red on your wall at the side of you, like you know. Oh I can't believe I just crap it on that. But yeah, there you go. Right, let's stop laughing. I've been calling on this podcast, so I have that.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

But and you're right, you know, you you can't you can't know everything. Um, you've just got to make educated decisions on what you do know. And I think I think what what we might discuss later is we've sort of identified that there needs to be or if we can provide some form of pathway for brokers, then that might be something that we might be able to help with. It's rather than us um talking about sort of people who might come in and leave after six months if that is the case, because they don't uh have the they don't think they they they don't think they've mastered it, so to speak. I'll go back to the to the pathway in a minute, but I think some of it is fuelled by oh if you're not earning 100 grand a year or 150 grand a year, and you know, people have only been in the industry six months and they haven't even you know how this is literally impossible unless somebody uh hands you a load of protection, which well, let's be fair, it is not gonna happen, is it? So it's really advan It's really hard, and I don't like that type of pressure. Um, but if we me and you and fear and some of the guys within fear, we've got sort we have had talks, haven't we, about making a pathway forward visors to make a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

And that's something we didn't mention my past past, but I worked with um young people for 20 years, developing young people, and so I I I appreciate the fact that people need ongoing support in a way which is relevant to the place in the journey. There you go.

Creating A Supportive Broker Pathway

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's a good point. That's a good thing to their place in the journey. Because I think it's difficult. Like if you're somebody you talking about the things there that you're talking about, so you and you love putting all these sort of different scenarios into the mix. You you're now self-employed, so you've got nobody managing you telling you what to do, where you're going. You've got no sort of bench, like you've been being told like this is your target, this is expectations, this is what you need to be doing. By when, these are hours of work, all these different things put in there, you've got nothing like when you've got self-employed, truly self-employed, and I'm not talking about there is that that fine balance between self-employed with targets, expectations and KPIs, and then truly self-employed. Yeah. That is the difficulty with it. And if you've got no, so if you've got you've come from that different world, you've now got that freedom, you've been brave, you've now got that freedom. It's easy to look at the comparisons because actually that's what we naturally we want to feel as though we're we're human beings, we've got that natural instinct to feel part of that that fear of missing out, whatever you're not probably not a great example, but do you know what I mean? You've got that fear of community and things like that. And that's what sort of people like can forget that or not be prepared for that when they go self-employed, thinking, actually, I've got nobody to tell me what to do, where to be, by what time, what the expectations are, where does what does this look like? And that, and then when they've got they haven't got that, and then they've got nobody to turn to to try and give them that the exactly. That is the you're absolutely right, I mate. That is the problem where they've got nobody to turn to and sort of say, Am I doing all right? Am I where I should be? What do you think? And it and it's those kind of giving that reassurance that they aren't because you will go through that six months in, it happens generally, it depends on who you are, but generally three months, six months in is that key point really. Where you start to question, have I done the right thing? Is this what I should be doing? Should I go back to what I've been doing before? Am I earning enough? Pressure from relationships and partners and I've been it myself. And then I can see you're smiling. And like you said, we've we've all been in that situation where it's sort of what do you mean you're not in anymore this month? Like what and and so you get questioned externally, you're questioning yourself internally without any without anywhere to to sort of get support and help. It's then okay, well, uh, I just this is not for me then now. Like I'll just go back to what I knew before.

Why A Self-Employed-Run Network Matters

SPEAKER_02 22:38

But I I got I got to a place where it was really hard, and I was I know the client now, and I I know the client. I was waiting on a Royal London protection to come in, otherwise I was done. I was done, right? And I was it was it was like balanced on this. Uh and um got delayed a little bit because of a health concern or something, and then literally it was I remember I was thinking, oh shit, like I don't know what I'm gonna do here. And it dropped in on the Friday, and this must have been the Wednesday, and I worried about it for weeks, and that was that Royal London protection. Thank goodness for um Phil from Royal London, the BDM at the time, because he was amazing, and um dropped in, and then luckily then a few other things dropped in, and then it I was through that bit, but I've had those feelings, I was nearly there, you know. And that was about that was purely financial. I wasn't beaten up by the processes or nothing, and so it is hard, even finally, you know. You mentioned financially that is tough, especially if you haven't planned for the what's it like what would you call it, Craig? You're probably better than me, like a vacuum. No, it's not a vacuum, is it? What would it be when there's a space in time where you don't earn any money but you work in? It would be so what would it be called a lag? A lag, for example.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Yeah, yeah, lag's good, yeah. Lag is a good, yeah. So uh that's bridging that gap and big it bridging that lag. So yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Yeah, and I think that that's something you've got to be prepared for. So people need support through it, especially at that time when they might be just about, oh, I've had enough, or not even now, you know, they need they need support all the way through it anyway. Like I was I was lucky I met you and I did because um I needed more, I need support, but at a different time then, Susan Craigs. I was okay by then. I needed support for business development. Um, and that's how we got where we are now. Like, so there's support all the way through, and then it's just about mentoring, then once mentoring and coaching, once people are at the place where I suppose appoint your representatives, if if that was the case.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Did you feel like you thought we're taking yourself back and appreciating being totally honest with what um because we've got no idea where this conversation was good was going to be. No, I haven't got a clue what I'm happy to go down it. I'm happy to go down it. And I but I just think it's relevant in terms of did you at that point when you're sort of like questioning and concerned and worried, do you then start to look at social media and think and kind of like look at do you take like did you get distracted with noise of what other people say they were doing, and that made you question yourself even more, or was it just a case of I know I'm the right human being, I know I'm the right person, I know I've got my right values, and just getting on with it?

SPEAKER_02 25:21

No, it's hard. I didn't I I uh I'm not gonna sit here and say that I didn't look for quick wins, but I never went through it, as in like paying for something, not leads, paying I won't go into it because it's it'll be obvious what I'm talking about, but I'm not saying I even click through a few pages to research into why other people are doing better than I was at that time.

unknown 25:44

Okay.

Foundations, Community, And Sustainable Growth

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Right? Okay, so you're sort of it's sort of you're sort of you're sort of not desperate, or desperate-ish, because you you you've you've got your mind goes a little bit crazy when you're stressed out, so you're trying to work out the solution. But then I suppose um, yeah, I did question it, but then there's there's something inside you with your values and the you the you your honesty and what and your in the way that you uh sort of think if you and you can uh think that positively and you get and you get educated a little bit more, then you you're glad you didn't click that final button to go on to that, whatever it might be. And then if you trust yourself uh and you back yourself, I can't say in every situation, because I don't know every situation, but I I would suggest that if you trust yourself, back yourself, educate yourself, support yourself with the right people, you'll get there without without selling your soul, for example.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Yeah, which is true, like like I said, without that's a good point in terms of um Oh thanks for sharing that Lee. I think that's the the thing is with it, is that is that transition from self-employed mindset. So going from the employed world that we've all been in, because we tend to very, very few of us will sort of leave education and then go straight in into self-employed. Very, very few people will do that is more of the route of going employed. So that transition of and those habits, which we've we've talked about before, the habits of being employed, told what to do, where to be, by what time, what hours you're working, what shift you're putting in, all those kind of things. And then at the end of the month, a figure which you know is going to get paid into your bank account, and then you can live again for the next few weeks until that sort of drains away and you paid your mortgage and everything else. The self-employed mindset, which doesn't help initially until you build a pipeline, until you you've generated enough. And we won't talk about pipeline and the importance of pipeline today, but it's that transition period of employed to self-employed, and how to deal with that, which is um and you're dealing with all these other things as well. That's just then thrown into the mix of being that transition from self-employed to employed, which employed people will never understand. Until it's not one of those where you can, here's a book about being self-employed. This is a book on the or listen to these podcasts about being until you are actually self-employed yourself, you've got no guaranteed income coming in. You've got to look at, and you've got all these sort of thoughts, concerns, worries, freedom, bravery, all these different emotions that are sort of going on in your head, but you know at the end of the month your mortgage needs paying or your rent needs pay in. Until you've been in that situation, you cannot know how that feels.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

My only saving grace, I was 40 odd. I was 40 odd by the time I went completely self-employed. So I had a bit a few more life skills under the belt than maybe somebody who's 20-ish, 25. So um that's but I think that's the only thing I had going for was my age.

Diversifying Into Equity Release

SPEAKER_00 29:04

I just thought I was I just thinking then I think I was 45. Well, yeah, it just it just seemed like I was 45. I was 45.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

I don't you'd either have ignorance is bliss if you were just younger and just earning money and it was coming in and you didn't, or you if you dad if you're sort of mid-20s and you were a bit more self-aware, you would you need some guidance on it all, not just the financial stuff, the whole package of being a broker, uh, because it's complicated. You're all of a sudden you're um you're in charge of everything, aren't you? And the end bit, which is the money coming in. It's a big old, big old package to take on.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

It is, it is worth it though.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

It's worth it because you're here's another one for you in charge of your own destiny, aren't you? That's yours as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 29:43

I cleared, I cleared some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

It has got it has it has gone in. I'm joking. Well, I think, but like you say, you've got it's that trade-off, innit? You've got the trade-off of the freedom, like every when I talk to brokers and when they go like helping them going self-employed as as we have done, as I have done, it's that trade-off of yes, it's amazing. The freedom, flexibility, in charge of your own destiny, running your own race, all these kind of things are amazing. You literally, they are the best thing that you can do with your life. Like for me, like it's easy to look back and go, and I'm probably listening to the thing that's easy for you to say, Craig, because you've gone self-employed and you are in charge of your own destiny, all those things now, and you've not got necessarily the fear too much of not having an income and things like that. It's it's it's a steady enough income that you you know how to put you work out how to put that in place that generates income for you while you're able to do what you're wanting to do. So that's all sort of well and good, but it's just it's that trade-off of, but you've got the trade-off of being employed. Like you've got the trade that the employed trade-off is you could be, whatever your notice period is, you could be unemployed in that period of time. That's reality, that is the harsh reality of that's not being in charge of your own destiny, because this I've talked about it a long time ago. The security of I want I don't want to go self-employed because I want the security of being employed. Bullshit. That literally, you that's the reality of that is you have no security apart from your notice period. That because if they want to get rid of you, if your employer doesn't want you anymore, they can pay you off, give you a month's notice, a week's notice, a day's notice, whatever that is, and then you're on on the you're then looking for work. So there's no security with employed.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

No, I've had I've had chats with quite a few mortgage brokers who maybe want to come under FIA Financial or previously under mortgages made easy, who were employed through the bigger sort of companies nationally, and uh yeah, they do have the fee, they have the they they're afraid that if they you know they they got they give them like titles as well. Um yeah, you get yeah, titles.

Complementary Skills And Right Fit

SPEAKER_00 32:02

You can pay your mortgage with a title, you can play your mortgage with a title, you know that you know you bought. Yeah, if you're struggling to pay your mortgage, now West will accept a certificate on that you've been given with a fancy dan title on. Yeah, there you go. That's a fancy dan title.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Yeah, so uh but you know, with with this now with um fear financial, at least we're sort of in charge of our own destiny, you know, me and you aren't we in regards to the network. So it's you know, we we can now um sort of act how we want to act as a as as a network as we want a network to act, because we had a conversation the other day. I don't know if I can say that word actually. I I think we just don't want to no, I won't say that. We just want to model the network and we would want to be treated, yeah? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly that is exactly and so uh you might want to elaborate, you could probably uh articulate it better than me about we do want to be, and it's not easy, it's like a community, yeah. Which the communities support each other, but it's based on the values of everybody. Would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah, I think that yeah, it's very fair to say. I think it got it goes back to what we've just been talking about there, that what is with regards to fair financial, it's a network. Like we are in charge, like we are doing this. Um we've got appointed representatives and we are growing organically in terms of the number of appointed representatives because, like I say, it's like-minded individuals, but I think and it is getting that community, it's getting all those sort of things together. However, I think with anything, like even if I go back to the estate agency world that I was in before, I learnt a lot from large corporates of not of how not to do things. So, how large corporates perform and what they do is not for everybody. They are that is for some people. I understand and I get it.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Yeah, I get that as well. I do actually get out as well. It is for some people in it. That's it.

Personal, One-To-One Support Philosophy

SPEAKER_00 34:11

You know, and that's and that's exactly that's the thing. That is fine. But what the the difference is is like with with regards to what we've created with the network, is that we're treating people how we expect to be treated ourselves. But the main thing is wrapped around all this, Lee, is that we are both self-employed. So if you look at any network, networks have employees, they have business development people selling the dream, selling the role, selling being an AR, and like and putting pressure on to join the them as an AR. But they're employees, they have a different. I think my I understand this totally now because I've been so lucky to work with amazing people when I've gone self-employed, who I still work with few employed people, but mainly people are self-employed. The network is run with a self-employed, by self-employed people with a self-employed mindset. Whereas most networks are run by employees. Well, they they are they're they're employees in terms of you've got layers and layers of employees, you've got layers and layers of KPIs, you've got layers and layers of egos, you've got layers and layers of sort of goals and aspirations, and again, I'll mention the word egos, yeah. Again, like I mentioned it twice in that in the space of a few seconds. Because that's what you have.

SPEAKER_02 35:35

I was gonna pick up on it the other day. Sorry to interrupt you, but we were in a we were in a meeting, me, you and somebody else the other day, and um the the person said, So what's your sort of what's your I don't think it was a five-year plan, growth plan or something? And we both know we want to grow, but I said to her, Well, it's not an ego thing with us. We we're not looking across the road and seeing how many other people we don't, you know, it's just it's it was it was literally just came out of my mouth as something which I said automatically, it was nothing out of the process. It was like, well, it's not an ego thing, it it's as many hours as want to come with us, and we can provide a good environment for them to to grow in. And you would see she was like, What what's it going on? Yeah, they normally she'd have a 35 ARs by you know 2027, blah blah blah. And it was just to me, it seemed natural to say, Well, it's there's no egos with us, it it it it is gonna grow organically and it's support the growth. If everyone is happy, then surely, like I said, a bit with the state agency, if it'll it'll grow well, won't it?

Closing Thoughts And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Well, it's gonna grow on it will grow on solid foundations, and there is no like you say, you're absolutely right. Like we and we see it, like I've seen it firsthand. We've both seen it because we've referred to it where you sort of say, Oh, we've now got we've got 30 ARs and we've got this, and like we're and you sort of thinking, great, good, good for like good for you. Like, if that's on solid foundations with the right community, helping and supporting the right individuals, then absolutely. I know that's not the case, but we we won't talk about that. That that's not the case because of the interactions I've had, but it's about providing the right platform for the right individuals in that safe space, as safe as it can be, with the right help and support, with the right community, with other like-minded individuals. So you've got other ARs on there, as we we have appointed representatives in our network that have gone through situations that people will go through, or people are going through right now about what deciding what they want to do and which network to join, and things like that. There is no hidden agenda with those, there's no bullshit, there's no second guessing, there's no sort of we just provide it's quite simple that and it goes back to what you said very early on. It's about simplicity and it's about we don't need to overcomplicate that the world is complicated enough, the world of mortgage broken is complicated enough. The last thing you need from your platform, your network, or wherever you ply your trade, the last thing you need is for that to be you're looking over your shoulder on that, thinking, what does my network think of me? Am I doing enough for the network? Like, that's not like no, that's not that's not how this is about you. This is your you're the appointed representative. You should have like-minded foundations that you're building your business on if you can have like-minded foundations. But you get my point, it is just about sort of the it is about the the platform that we've created to have that for the right individuals. There's no goals with it, there's no egos with it, there's no aspirations, it's a natural. If we stay as we are, then happy day. We've created a great platform for some amazing people that enjoy doing what they're doing. Well, great. That's that's that's that is that's good. If there's more people join us, then great, that is good as well. But it's sort of it is about growing organically, but on the solid foundations that we've uh we've both built, and we will continue to to build with like so we'll we took you hearing it briefly there about the academy and things like that, which we'd we're starting to put in place, and we'll probably get in, we'll have another podcast on that. We're getting really into how the academy works and stuff like that. But that's bringing about from somebody who's non-industry, which which I've done time and time before, and been getting through to become appointed representatives. We've got a model on that, we know how that works, we build those with that those on solid foundations, and uh again, it's just building the platform for the for the right people.

SPEAKER_02 39:51

So it's exciting, isn't it? We're we we're learning we once again we're learning every day, aren't we? Me and you like I think we we we speak more now than we ever have, right? Do we?

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yes, we which we do, yeah. But we have to, but that's the thing we have to because we're creating that solid foundation, like the the foundations are based on what we're doing for the and we've got a lot of trust from our appointed representatives that they know that we're putting the foundate, we've got the foundations there for them to build their business.

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Yeah, plus we're you know, we are trying to add things onto the offer as well, aren't we? Like you mentioned, the the the account the fear academy, which is in the process of being developed, and different products, for example, like the equity release with we're we're we're looking at right now, and there's a few other things that we could um which we are gonna develop, which will make it a better platform, if you like, all round for brokers. Um I can't go, I don't want to go into anything else, but I thought we were going to slow down a bit this year, mate, but we we seem to we seem to have gone faster, if anything. It's been um it's been an interesting first quarter, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_00 40:58

It it has, but I I think it's like I say I won't sort of say it's not, yeah, it's certainly not about slowing down, but I think it's about going back to those the foundations of having that they say whether equity release, specialist lending, all these other things that maybe sort of we've got to look at where we certainly equity release is high on the gender, and that's sort of where where we're at because again, diversifying income, the equity release space will be I predict it will be huge in the in the short, more medium to long term. So we need to have that as part of the the platform. So again, but I think that I think the thing is it just goes back to that sort of you spotting the opportunities, you be doing the estate agency, you doing the the all these things where neither of us, I'm sure I certainly didn't. I went self-employed nine years ago now. I when I said that, I didn't think, oh, we're gonna have this, we'll have a network, we'll have I got my ideas and thoughts, but ultimately, if you just had my 10-year plan back then, and we are where we're at, and like literally with you're in the last year, Craig, of your 10-year plan, being a co-founder on a network and working with appointed representatives and supporting like-minded people to build their businesses was not high on my agenda right then. It was literally provide food, provide shelter, provide do you know what I mean? That was that was that was the thing with it. However, because we have been through that, because we have been self, we are self-employed, and because we've been through that process, we can help and support the right individuals more because yeah, we have I'm not gonna say trodden that path. Do you know what I mean? It's not that's not the right way. Because you know what I mean, it's like we we've gone through those those those feelings, we've been through those feelings, the highs and lows.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

That's better, the feelings thing, yeah. That's that's more like getting it. We can we know what they're feeling, we can appreciate what they're feeling that different. Definitely. And the good thing is, like you want about the 10-year thing, and like we were lucky that well, I was lucky, or one of us was, or we both were, that we sort of you you and this will come back to joining maybe fear as an advisor. Um, is that you find people who fit your puzzle a little bit, so you complement their skills. Um, like Mike and I. Mike is completely different to me with the state agency, but my skills complement his, and Jordan's who were me, his skills always complemented mine. And I know that you've got a lot of experience compared to me in finance, Craig, but I think some somewhere that we we do help each other and work together well as a team. And I think when people maybe watch this, they might think, oh well, you know, those two guys there and the for your academy or for your uh network, that feels like a bit of a jigsaw that would help me get the way I want to go. And it's it's the same at every stage, isn't it? You just need something to complement you, something to fit in properly. And I've I've been what I was trying to get at was I was trying to say that I've been lucky with the relationships that I've made in the last sort of six years since coming into this sector, which have enabled me to sort of uh develop myself and and the different businesses, really, you know. And I think that'd be important if I was watching this thinking of these okay will this help me as a as a broker, and then just seeing if uh if it would and if it feels right as well, that's another thing. If it feels right, and the only reason you know I don't know is if you you tr if you sort of chat to people or get reviews off people or call link like message m myself or you for a chat. Um but I'd like to say that the stuff we say on here and the way we talk to each other, our little interactions are exactly how they'll find us in real life anyway, you know. So yeah, um I might talk a bit faster in real life actually if I get excited about something to start to leak over it.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

But that but but the thing is like they said there's no you are who you are, you are who you are. It doesn't matter whether you're talking on this podcast, another podcast, talking to a client, putting the house on the market, talking to about mortgages or protection or whatever and whatever it is, it is Lee Rowland. I mean, like there's no sort of like the because and I think Well, you're Craig Skelton as well, aren't you? You know, you're the same, you exactly, you know, exactly. Yeah, and that and there is no and there's no because life is complicated, running a business is complicated, being self-employed is complicated, being a mortgage broker is complicated, dealing with lenders, underwriters, protection, all these things are complicated. So the whole point of what we do and why we did this is because there is no it is very much a one-to-one network, it's very much around the help and support of what the individual needs. It's not like one shoe fits all kind of thing, it's very personal to what that individual needs. And that's like the academy when we when we do roll that out. That explains a lot of that in terms of the jigsaw, bits of the jigsaw, where and that pulls it all together. I think that the thing with it is Lee that it's around the community of mortgage brokers. We're all going through the same thing, we're all going through the same challenges and the same frustrations with lenders, with clients, with all these things. It's then giving that platform and that foundation to think, you know what, nobody's gonna that new ego is not gonna come into that employee, employer tomorrow. Because networks are employers, that's what they are. That's that they have employees, so they're employers. Nobody's gonna come into that. And I've seen it firsthand with my business with networks, is that some new ego comes in, and all of a sudden the whole playing field's changed, and I've not got the freedom. The whole point of being brave is to get freedom. The whole point of being brave is facing that fear. It that is facing that fear. It's that's the whole point of that. So if you've still got that being tugged behind thinking actually, my networks worked woke up today and said, right, if you're not gonna do, if you're not doing 60 grand or 100 grand, we're gonna charge you more, which is happening, well, that's how does that's that's not right for you as an individual, because again, it's like the ones who fits all corporate with mentality, which is what we're trying to we're all trying to avoid. So yeah, yeah. Well exactly we are me.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Honestly, I can't believe we've gone through a lot of stuff, haven't we? We're just chatting away. He'd forgot I was even on the podcast, to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

That's good. That is good, like to be fair. But I think that the thing is like I think just it we've got a good account of who you are as a human being and what you're about and your values and stuff like that. We have from past podcasts. We have and I really do appreciate you trusting me to you taking the time out of your busy mental life to sort of for chat to me for the last 40, 50, 50 minutes uh now without any agenda. But I think that's important with the podcast is that we like you sort of said what we're going to talk about. We'll just chat, we'll talk, we'll we'll talk about it. But I think it's sort of relevant, it's not about products, it's not about this, it's not about the other, in terms of the it's about being a mortgage broker, facing the being brave, facing the fears, hence why fear financial came about, facing the fear, and just having that freedom to to do that. And I think that's sort of a great way to end the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

Yeah, I mean, thank you so much for having me on, mate. I know uh we speak every day, but I I love that I've always loved the podcast, and uh I really appreciate you having me on. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

No, thank, and thank you, mate. I was saying genuinely mean that in terms of I know you're busy, I know you've got sort of taken out of your time of your hectic lifestyle. I appreciate that and just trusting me with no agenda. But uh been great to have you back on. And uh I say, it was January 2025, you were last on, so uh 13, 14 months later, you're back on. But it's been great to catch up with you and thanks very much, mate. And I will uh no doubt speak to you soon.

SPEAKER_02 49:18

Yeah, speak to you soon. Cheers, mate.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

Thanks for that, Lee. Thanks for agreeing to come back on the podcast. Thanks for being a great guest, trusting me with no agenda, and really good to have a catch-up and about what you've been up to with the last 12 months since you were last on the podcast and what's going on looking for the next 12 months as well, really. So uh yeah, thanks for a great guest as always, and uh I love having a chat with Lee. If you've got any thoughts, comments about the podcast, please leave uh in whichever platform you listen to or uh watch the podcast as always. And if you are thinking about becoming a self-employed mortgage broker, then I've dropped in a little bit before about the non-Cast2 AR Academy that we're now launching as part of Fear Financial. So if you've that's something you've got your C map, don't know where to go, what to do, how to do it, then just drop me a message. We can have a quick informal chat and let's just see whether we are a fit for you in terms of what your goals and aspirations are, and we can talk through the program and how that works over the the sort of three, six, twelve month programme that we have from a non cast appointed representative. So, yeah, just drop my message on that. Thanks for listening. Please subscribe as always, and please don't forget as Leah Lee returned in the podcast, don't forget to run your own race.