More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
MTM - Interview with Dr. Matt Clark - Review of Pro-Life Bills Pending in the South Carolina Legislature
Join us as we navigate the complex terrain of pro-life legislation in South Carolina, with Dr. Matt Clark, an allergist and Pastor committed to the Pro-life movement. We dissect four pivotal bills, including the Human Life Protection Act and the Unborn Child Protection Act, with a spotlight on the comprehensive yet divisive Prenatal Equal Protection Act. Together, we confront the thorny issue of criminalizing women who seek abortions, drawing thought-provoking parallels to historical legal cases of child murder outside the womb. Our discussion unravels the ethical intricacies and legislative challenges these bills present, inviting you to consider the broader implications on society.
In our pursuit of life and justice, we delve into the advocacy behind the Prenatal Equal Protection Act, designed to eradicate abortion in South Carolina while aligning with biblical and constitutional tenets. Personal stories from abortion clinics are shared, underscoring the use of abortion as a form of birth control and the belief that criminalizing those involved, especially doctors, could deter these practices. We compare the Unborn Child Protection Act’s potential criminal penalties with the Human Life Protection Act’s unconditional immunity for women, arguing for holding women accountable as moral agents. As we conclude, we extend an invitation to engage with Jackson Family Ministry through our book, speaking engagements, and online channels. Join us as we champion the cause of life and justice.
https://www.jacksonfamilyministry.com
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty, dusty scrapbook. Well, I'm privileged to have online with me today Dr Matt Clark, a good friend of mine. He's an allergist from down in North Augusta, is that correct, matt?
Dr. Matt Clark:That's right.
Dr. Robert Jackson:All right, well, tell my listeners a little bit about yourself, so they'll know who they're talking to.
Dr. Matt Clark:Today, Well, first of all, it's good to be with you again, robert. I'm really thankful for what you're doing in our state and, yeah, I live down here with my wife and my children and work as an allergist and stay busy as a pastor and, of course, you know, stay busy in the effort to end abortion in South Carolina. So a lot of things going on, a lot of good things to talk about right now.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Well, you're involved with Personhood South Carolina for how many years now?
Dr. Matt Clark:Well, I think it's been 10 years now, Robert. It's a long slog. It is you and I have been working on this for quite some time. It's a long slog.
Dr. Robert Jackson:It is you and I have been working on this for quite some time. Well, and I appreciate all your efforts, and that's why I called you today to be on our program, because there are multiple pieces of pro-life legislation that are being promoted in the South Carolina legislature and there's a little bit of confusion because they're all a little bit different. And you sent out an email recently that was very informative and I said, man, as soon as I saw that, I said this is helpful and I want to invite you on my program to help my listeners understand the difference between the four pieces of pro-life legislation that are being promoted in the South Carolina legislature at this time, and so, if you will, I want you to walk us through the four different bills, tell us what they are If you can remember who promotes each one, let us know that and then tell us the main differences between these bills.
Dr. Matt Clark:Sure glad to do that. So the four comparators of course we've got the current heartbeat law and the article we put out is comparing the three main pieces of legislation that are being considered. The Human Life Protection Act, introduced by Representative John McCravey, is in the House Judiciary Committee and just recently was assigned to a subcommittee. And the Unborn Child Protection Act, introduced in the Senate by Richard Cash, is currently in the Medical Affairs Committee and has not received a subcommittee. And then there's the Prenatal Equal Protection Act, introduced in the House by Rob Harris, which has not been assigned to a subcommittee yet.
Dr. Matt Clark:In terms of comparing these three bills, when we look at them, to us it's obvious that the Prenatal Equal Protection Act is the superior bill. And when we look at scriptures and we look at the Constitution, look at the GOP platform in South Carolina, it's very clear that the Prenatal Equal Protection Act is the superior bill. But it really does face extreme resistance from the GOP establishment right now because of this decades of confused guidance from South Carolina Citizens for Life, backed by National Right to Life. Moving on to the Unborn Child Protection Act, this bill is a good bill. It's actually a very good bill and would provide the best progress of the two incremental bills.
Dr. Matt Clark:The Prenatal Equal Protection Act would end abortion. It would eliminate abortion in South Carolina and do so with equal protection and just laws. The Unborn Child Protection Act would be the best progress this year, but it also faces very strong resistance from the GOP establishment for the same reasons, because of confused guidance from National Right to Life and South Carolina Citizens for Life, and that all boils down to their statement, to where they have said that. They said this was May 12, 2022, citizens for Life passed on the National Right to Life statement and in that statement, they said these words we state unequivocally that any measure seeking to criminalize or punish women is not pro-life and we stand firmly opposed to such efforts is not pro-life and we stand firmly opposed to such efforts. Now, this unbiblical and unconstitutional guidance is a major impediment to actually ending abortion, and so part of what we're doing with Personhood South Carolina is we want to educate the citizens of our state to understand this significant error. Rob, what was that woman's name who murdered her two children?
Dr. Robert Jackson:Susan Smith, we remember that. You know that was 30 years ago. But Susan Smith drove her automobile or let it roll into Huey D Long, I think is what it was Huey Long Lake down in Cherokee County and drowned her two sons while they were strapped in their car seats. She ended up receiving life with possibility of parole in prison for murdering her two sons and she was not treated as a victim. She was treated as a murderer, which is entirely appropriate.
Dr. Matt Clark:Yes, yes, we have legalized murder of babies inside the womb in our state, and what National Right to Life and Citizens for Life here in South Carolina need to answer is they need to explain to us why, if a baby, boy or girl, in South Carolina is murdered inside the womb and their mother participates in that, why is that mother only a victim if the child inside the womb is murdered, whereas outside the womb she's now a moral agent who's held responsible for her actions? They need to explain that to the public, and that's what we want to do as part of our educational campaign is to ask them to explain themselves. Yes, exactly. Now, moving on to the next bill, the Human Life Protection Act, let me go back.
Dr. Matt Clark:The Unborn Child Protection Act does provide for criminal penalties, the potential for criminal penalties for the pregnant woman if she is shown to be involved, participating in the act of killing her child. It does offer conditional immunity, and so does the Equal Protection Act. So a pregnant woman who participates in killing her child, if she offers testimony, it looks like she could gain immunity. Now with the Human Life Protection Act, it is more compromised, far more compromised, but it would be better progress than what we have now. We can't stay with the heartbeat bill. It's just not good enough, and our legislators appear to think it is good enough, yeah well, it still allows for how many abortions per year in South Carolina.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Since human life protection I mean the heartbeat bill was passed, I mean there's still thousands of medical abortions and surgical abortions occurring in South Carolina every year.
Dr. Matt Clark:Yeah, our innocent neighbors inside the womb are still being legally murdered in our state. And I saw Representative McCravey he put out some numbers the other day 10 babies per day, yeah, and so that's a terrible thing.
Dr. Robert Jackson:And if there were 10 babies a day dying from any other cause in this state, that could be preventable. Our medical establishment and legal establishment would be up in arms, doing whatever they could to prevent the death of those 10 babies a day in South Carolina. But here is something that's entirely preventable and people are ignoring it. They lay their head on the bed and on a pillow every night and go to sleep without any concern whatsoever about this entirely preventable death of unborn citizens in our state. That goes on day after day after day.
Dr. Matt Clark:It's true. It's true. And you know the interesting thing that I can't figure out? When you look at the Human Life Protection Act, it would advance protection back to conception, which would be a big step forward in the progress towards eliminating abortion in our state. But it offers total maternal immunity. So it just specifically states that the pregnant woman can never be prosecuted, can never be brought to justice, whether it's criminal or civil. And yet here's the confusing thing it's facing strong resistance. The House leadership has not moved it. The Senate leadership's not doing anything to move it. And help me understand that. Because isn't it true that when Dobbs came out, didn't South Carolina have a special session to address this and to move the Human Life Protection Act forward, and wasn't Citizens for Life there testifying and calling for the passage of this law? And now they're just quiet, they're not saying anything. That's right. They're not even supporting this law. Can you explain that to me? I don't get that.
Dr. Robert Jackson:I don't understand it either. It's baffling, totally baffling to me.
Dr. Matt Clark:Well, again, I appreciate what National Right to Life and Citizens for Life, the good things that these good people have accomplished but this step that they've taken here is actually. I mean, they're the ones that are actually not pro-life, they're the ones who are standing against life with this position that they have.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Yeah, you're right. You're right. You know I was speaking in a church seven or eight years ago and I just made you know. I was speaking in a church seven or eight years ago and I just made you know on a pro-life presentation and I made an offhand comment that I didn't think we would ever completely eliminate abortion in South Carolina, or really any state, unless we criminalized the providers of abortion. I'm talking about the medical doctors. Well, a lawyer came up to me at the end of the service and he said, doctor, you cannot do that. And I was a little surprised and I said no, why not? He says under the Constitution, if you do not criminalize women who are accessories to abortion, as well as the physicians, it will not stand up to constitutional muster. And he said that was exactly the problem with the initial law in Texas that eventually led to Roe v Wade. Their law did not equally challenge the medical providers and the mothers who were accessories to abortion.
Dr. Robert Jackson:And a little light went off in my brain. I said you know, you're right about that. I didn't even think about it. Well, all of that was just rolling over and over in my mind for a number of years. And then these gentlemen who created the Equal Protection Act legislation. They actually put into legislation and their rationale for promoting that legislation. They put it all into clear language and as soon as they did I realized I said, hey, they put it all into clear language. And as soon as they did I realized I said, hey, these guys are way ahead of me. They have actually created the legislation and the rationale and put it on paper and pen to paper and written down exactly what I've been thinking for several years now and I was grateful to them and I immediately jumped on their bandwagon, dr Clark, because I realized that they had created the exact piece of legislation that we need to eliminate abortion in South Carolina and really other states as well.
Dr. Matt Clark:South Carolina and really other states as well. I agree, and you know Personhood. South Carolina endorses this bill that Rob Harris put forward the Prenatal Equal Protection Act. We hope that every biblically-minded and constitutionally-informed citizen in South Carolina will understand that this is the ultimate goal of the effort to end abortion now in South Carolina, and our first call is support this bill, Get this bill moving, Contact your legislators and contact the Judiciary Committee and let them know that. Why aren't they moving this bill? It absolutely provides everything that the GOP platform calls for. It is constitutionally sound and it is really, when you look at scriptures, it's the biblical requirement that we're given.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Exactly right. Talked to an employee of the abortion clinic in Greenville some years ago and she was telling me that there are multiple employees of a men's club I won't name it over in Greenville that come to the abortion clinic there in Greenville, the Grove Road Clinic, and they show up about every second or third month pregnant and they use the abortion clinic there as their birth control. And she says it sickens us, those of us who work at the abortion clinic she said it sickens us that they show up so frequently pregnant and they're using the abortion clinic as their birth control location not device but location and she says it just hurts our hearts that they show up and she says we have clients that have had more than seven abortions that work at that place.
Dr. Robert Jackson:And I'm like, oh, you've got to be kidding me. She said, oh no, oh no, I'm just telling you the truth.
Dr. Matt Clark:Well, there's a helpful website called Not a Victim, and I myself have stood outside of abortion mills and kindly pleaded with these women as they're walking in and said man, please don't kill your child. You're already a mother. You can't change that. God's given you this baby. You can care for this baby. We'll help you care for your child. And many times they'll look right at me and they'll say yeah, I know it's a child, I know I'm killing another human being and there's nothing you can do about it.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Oh yeah.
Dr. Matt Clark:So, Robert, I've heard that with my own ears, and so you know, not only do I know from Scripture, but I know from experience that these women who do these things, they're not all victims.
Dr. Robert Jackson:They know full well.
Dr. Matt Clark:And you know the thing is, women will be provided due process. So if they were coerced, if they were pressured and they didn't want to be there, you know they'll be able to defend themselves in a court of law. Yeah, and they didn't want to be there, they'll be able to defend themselves in a court of law and they'll be able to likely get immunity if they cooperate with the investigation. So women in our state will be treated fairly according to the law, just like anyone charged with a crime.
Dr. Robert Jackson:But I'll tell you this my conviction is that if only one doctor was criminalized and penalized financially or put in prison, it would shut every abortion clinic in South Carolina. Don't you think?
Dr. Matt Clark:It really would, I mean. That's why we have to make sure that there's application of the law to every person who's party to the crime.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Yeah, exactly right, I agree. I think it would be a strong deterrent to providing abortion services in South Carolina. If you criminalize the act and you know one mom was fined and one doctor was fined or put in prison, look, it would close the doors of every abortion clinic in South Carolina, or really merely the threat.
Dr. Robert Jackson:South Carolina, or really merely the threat, merely the threat. I talked to a crisis pregnancy center worker recently and she said that their doors were opening and closing because a lot of women thought now that they cannot get an abortion because of the heartbeat bill, which is not entirely true, but because of the heartbeat bill, more women are going to the CPCs because they think they cannot get an abortion.
Dr. Matt Clark:Well you know Well and it's another point there how laws that we pass are educational. They instruct.
Dr. Robert Jackson:They are.
Dr. Matt Clark:They instruct the people in our state. You know I want to go back to another disappointing clarification and emphasis the Unborn Child Protection Act. The reason it's superior to the Human Life Protection Act is because it does provide for the potential for criminal penalties for all parties to the crime. That's right. The difference, though, with the Equal Protection Act is the Unborn Child Protection Act writes out the sanctions and does it distinct and separate and different from the sanctions that are listed in Title 16, which is essentially the violent crime code in our state, and so the Prenatal Equal Protection Act just refers the crime to Title 16. That's why it's called equal protection, because it treats the act as a crime in the same fashion that any other similar type crime would be treated according to our current code.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Right right.
Dr. Matt Clark:But the reason again the Unborn Child Protection Act is superior to the Human Life Protection Act? Because the Human Life Protection Act provides blanket, unconditional immunity for a woman involved in the crime. Treating her as if she's really it's dehumanizing. Treating her as if she's not a moral agent as if she's nothing but a victim in every case.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Yeah, and that's not true. We know that's not true.
Dr. Matt Clark:It's not true.
Dr. Robert Jackson:No, it's not All right. Well, we're up against the clock. Is there any concluding remarks that you would like to make?
Dr. Matt Clark:Well, we just appreciate those who agree with us. We really want to educate the state of South Carolina and really stir up this conversation. Robert, I didn't tell you we've been granted a $25,000 matching donation. So anyone who wants to help us promote this message in our state regarding equal protection and helping people think through the biblical and constitutional foundations of what it means to be 100% pro-life, we would love to have that financial assistance and really spread this message across the state. So if folks want to donate this matching donation, that would really help us.
Dr. Robert Jackson:How do they get in touch with your organization and how would they make a contribution?
Dr. Matt Clark:Yeah, the best way is to go to our Personhood South Carolina Facebook page or our website to make a donation.
Dr. Robert Jackson:All right, so they would look up what's the website.
Dr. Matt Clark:I don't have it immediately handy with me right here, Robert, but if they type in personhoodsouthcarolina they'll get to it. I think it's personhoodsc. It is.
Dr. Robert Jackson:I'm looking at it right here, you're looking at it.
Dr. Matt Clark:Sorry about that.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Personhoodssc.
Dr. Matt Clark:That's right. Personhoodsc and if they want a tax-deductible donation to personhoodsc, it's not tax-deductible. But if they want a tax-deductible donation, which is where this matching grant is going, this matching donation is to our tax-deductible wing and that's the South Carolina Personhood Foundation.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Okay.
Dr. Matt Clark:South Carolina Personhood Foundation Got you got you Good.
Dr. Robert Jackson:Carolina Personhood Foundation Gotcha Gotcha Good, good, good, All right.
Dr. Matt Clark:And I'll say this. But most importantly, Robert, is to pray, to cry out to God, because no amount of money can change the human heart.
Dr. Robert Jackson:That's right. You're exactly right, and we value prayer. We value folks joining us financially and Dr Clark financially and Dr Clark, I appreciate you guys. You know I appreciate pro-life warriors that have been in the trenches for lots of years and not given up and I appreciate you being there all through these long years. All right now, matt, are there any action items that my listeners need to do in order to promote any particular piece of legislation?
Dr. Matt Clark:Yes, robert, the main thing right now is for folks to contact the key committee chairman. So in the House, judiciary, that's Representative Weston Newton who unfortunately has been particularly onerous and unwilling to move the legislation. Now he did give Human Life Protection Act a hearing. We're thankful for that, but it required some pressure on him to do that. But he hasn't done anything with the Prenatal Equal Protection Act. So folks need to contact him, contact his office and politely insist on a hearing on a subcommittee for the Prenatal Equal Protection Act. And they can thank him also for giving a subcommittee to the Human Life Protection Act and they can thank him also for giving a subcommittee to the Human Life Protection Act.
Dr. Matt Clark:Now in the Senate they need to reach out to the chairman there of the Medical Affairs Committee. That's Senator Danny Verdon, and he's traditionally been a really reliable friend of personhood of the pro-life movement. So we expect if folks reach out to Senator Verdon and say, hey, get the Unborn Child Protection Act moving, that we'll probably see him granted a subcommittee. But they're sitting on it this year. They've got. For whatever reason. They're requiring us to contact them before they get moving this year.
Dr. Robert Jackson:All right, we'll get our folks moving on that. All of you all heard those recommendations and you need to call Danny Verdon about the say that the unborn yeah, in the Senate it's the Unborn Child Protection Act. Okay, unborn Child Protection Act and in the House it's Weston Newton about the Equal Protection Act.
Dr. Matt Clark:That's correct.
Dr. Robert Jackson:All right, got it All right. You're listening to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr Robert Jackson. We'll be back next week and until then may the Lord bless you real good.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry, Dr Jackson's book, or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or their webpage at jacksonfamilyministry. com. This podcast is produced by Bob Slone Audio Production at bobslone. com.
