More Than Medicine
More Than Medicine
Ending Abortion: A Biblical Vision for Unity-An Interview with Dr. Matt Clark
Dr. Matt Clark, Executive Director of Personhood South Carolina, brings clarity, conviction, and a path forward for the pro-life movement in this compelling conversation about ending abortion in America.
What makes this discussion unique is Clark's unflinching honesty about the current state of pro-life efforts. "The pro-life world is fractured," he explains, before laying out a biblical vision for victory built on eternal principles rather than political expediency. As both a practicing physician and pastor, Clark brings a dual perspective that grounds his advocacy in both scientific reality and spiritual conviction.
At the heart of his message is a crucial distinction often overlooked in pro-life circles: the need to be both "100% pro-life" and "100% pro-dignity." This means not only protecting every child from conception without exception but also preserving their dignity through equal legal protection under law. Clark tackles the divisive arguments between incremental and abolitionist approaches with thoughtful biblical wisdom, offering a third way that could unify disparate pro-life groups.
The conversation doesn't shy away from uncomfortable truths. Clark addresses head-on why South Carolina's legislature remains "paralyzed" despite having a GOP supermajority and the legal authority to end abortion post-Dobbs. He also lovingly but firmly challenges specific pro-life organizations he believes have adopted problematic positions, demonstrating how to disagree with grace while maintaining clarity on principles.
Perhaps most powerful is Clark's call for a Christ-like approach to advocacy, modeled after William Wilberforce, whose eloquence and character won over even his fiercest opponents. "We need to be like Jesus, full of grace and truth," Clark urges, admitting his own past failures in this area.
Whether you're a seasoned pro-life advocate seeking fresh perspective or someone wanting to understand this complex issue more deeply, this conversation offers valuable insights that transcend typical political talking points and get to the heart of what's at stake: the lives and dignity of our most vulnerable neighbors.
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Welcome to More Than Medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the ills that plague our culture and our country. Hosted by author and physician, dr Robert Jackson, and his wife Carlotta and daughter Hannah Miller. So listen up, because the doctor is in.
Dr. Jackson:Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctors' rusty, dusty scrapbook. Well, today I'm delighted to have online Matt Clark. Dr Matt Clark, a very good friend of mine from down in the North Augusta area. Dr Clark, welcome to More Than Medicine.
Speaker 1:Thank you, robert, it's great to be with you again.
Dr. Jackson:Well, the topic for today is a pro-life topic, and first thing I want you to do is tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and about the organization that you represent.
Speaker 1:Robert, I'm the Executive Director of Personhood South Carolina. We've been seeking to end abortion in South Carolina for over a decade now. I'm a medical doctor, I'm an allergist, I'm board certified in pediatrics and in allergy and I'm also recently growing in functional medicine learning. But the big story here is the focus for your listeners on ending abortion. And I'm also a pastor and so, as a Christian, I want to love my neighbors as myself, and that's really that simple scripture is what got me moving to try to love my neighbors in the womb as myself.
Dr. Jackson:Amen, brother, I hear that. I hear that Now there have been some very interesting developments in the pro-life arena in the last month or so, some in South Carolina and some on the federal level. How about bring my listeners up to date on what's happened in South Carolina and on the federal level?
Speaker 1:Yeah, good news is that when McMaster signed that executive order that excluded abortion providers from getting Medicaid money back in July of 18, he did a good thing and the Supreme Court recently upheld that, and so now other states are starting to do the same thing Arkansas, missouri, texas and others. So that's really good that states now have the authority to exclude abortion providers from Medicaid participation. That's big news.
Dr. Jackson:For the first time in a long time, South Carolina is in the lead in something very, very good.
Speaker 1:I agree, governor McMaster does deserve commendation for that.
Dr. Jackson:And then what happened on the federal level?
Speaker 1:that's a little bit disheartening, yeah the Big, beautiful Bill is a lot less beautiful. It was supposed to be 10 years for federal Medicaid defunding for Planned Parenthood, but it's only one year. So we're very disappointed by that. It's only one year. So we're very disappointed by that and, you know, disappointed in general with President Trump's weak position on the pro-life question.
Dr. Jackson:Yeah, because that will now have to be addressed annually in the budget, right?
Speaker 1:Correct.
Dr. Jackson:Yeah. So that battle has to be fought every year. We can never let our guard down. We can never let our representatives and senators off the hook. We constantly have to be badgering them to stand up for life, and you know this was an opportunity for them to defund Planned Parenthood from federal money for 10 years. But no, they let Planned Parenthood off the hook and only defunded them for one year, which was a terrible disappointment.
Dr. Jackson:All right, well, let's leave that, and here's the main thing I wanted to talk to you about today. I saw a video of you making a presentation at the Capitol building down in Columbia, the state Capitol Building, and it was a fascinating presentation and there was a handful of folks present. There were a few legislators present and I just was enthralled with the presentation that you made and I just wanted you to share that with my listening audience. I applaud you for your presentation. I thought it was very insightful, and so I'm just going to sit back and listen politely, and I really want you to share your heart and share with my listeners the presentation that you made there in Columbia, in the Capitol Building, rotunda. So, Dr Clark, wax eloquent. Share your heart, be a blessing to my listeners.
Speaker 1:Robert, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to speak with your listeners, and you know wherever they might be right now, whether they're driving in their car or doing the dishes or sitting around the fireplace in their sitting room with their family. I really hope that your listeners will be moved by the reality. We talk so much about abortion and it's easy to forget what's going on, and the pro-life effort is so terribly disjointed and divided right now, and so I believe that what I have to say here is really important. In the years that I've been observing what's going on in the pro-life effort in South Carolina, I believe there's some basic truth here that could bring us together and cause us to be a united force in our state. So, first of all, we have to remember what abortion is. We have to get this before our minds and not let it loose. It's an evil deed of darkness that we must expose. I think of William Wilberforce, that original abolitionist. You know. He looked into the belly of that slave ship and it changed his life, robert. He could not get over it, and we need to have that same experience.
Speaker 1:What is abortion? It is legalized murder of our neighbors inside the womb, where a criminal knowingly plans and murders an innocent, defenseless child. This is what abortion is and we have to keep this before our eyes. And we have to remember that Satan loves death and hates God. Satan is the most bloodthirsty God-hater, the father of lies, and he will work to distract us and attack us. He'll say things like oh, it's just a fetus, it's just a blob of cells, or bring up all sorts of political questions to distract us from the reality. But we need to remember that this murdered child, every murdered child, is made by God in his image and is precious to our God, with intrinsic value that's been divinely bestowed, and estimates are even up to 10,000 some estimates we don't really know of South Carolina. Babies are murdered in the womb every year, crushed, dismembered or suctioned to death in the clinic or poisoned to death at home by their mothers. And then not only are their lives not protected, but their dignity is degraded significantly Because what happens? Their bodies are thrown in the trash or flushed down the toilet. This is what's happening in our state.
Speaker 1:I don't like to say these things, robert, but we need to have this before our eyes and we need to remember we're going to face resistance, because those who hate God, love death. You know, robert, you and me, and I'm sure probably most of your listeners, have been delivered from Satan's grasp. We trust in Christ, we follow him, but we all know those who are still in the devil's grasp, and these folks are deceived. They'll lie, they'll distract, they'll attack, and we just have to remember that if we were not in Christ, we, like them, would also love death. So we have to be kind, we have to stay focused and remember that we fight against legalized murder of innocent children. I hope that your listeners who are hearing this right now are feelingly alive. That's how Wilberforce described it. Feelingly alive, that's how Wilberforce described it. I hope that we're feelingly alive to the suffering and the degradation of these little babies, our neighbors in the womb, and that perhaps, through listening to this, some of your listeners will be moved in ways they've not before. I'm talking to you right now about this, robert, because we're fractured. The pro-life world is fractured, and I want to proclaim a biblical vision for victory that's built on eternal, unshakable principles, not upon shifting poles or whims of fickle mankind, not upon the opinions of confused presidents and not upon corrupted national platforms.
Speaker 1:Robert, our legislature is paralyzed right now. They're doing nothing. We've got a GOP supermajority. We've got recent South Carolina election results. We've got dobs Our elected officials can't hide behind federal tyranny as an excuse any longer. And we've got the South Carolina GOP platform, which is still solidly pro-life and pro-dignity and I'm going to open up what pro-dignity means. Our platform says we believe that all human life has intrinsic worth and support vigorous legal protection at all stages of life.
Speaker 1:Robert, I hope that your listeners understand that the heartbeat law is not enough. Babies that do not have a heartbeat. They are not protected. And think about this In the current law, an abortionist the one who's doing this legalized murder. If they break the law, what is their punishment? If they break the heartbeat law, their punishment is comparable to that received by a burglar or a thief or an animal abuser, and the mother gets total immunity, no matter what. It's like she just took out the trash.
Speaker 1:And why is our legislature paralyzed? I believe that it's because they're treating this like a political issue instead of a moral issue. Wilberforce says. Wilberforce is a great quote. I love this quote.
Speaker 1:Politics is not my principle and I'm not ashamed to say it. There's a principle above everything that is political. And when I reflect on the command which says thou shalt do no murder, believing the authority to be from God. How can I dare to set up any reasonings of my own against it? But we can't just point the finger at our legislators, robert. The church shares the blame because we do not have a common biblical vision for victory. So we're demoralized and fragmented and the pulpits are to blame and the pews are to blame. We need to go to God's word and hear his voice and we're divided. We need biblical mission, method and manner. We're divided on all three right now in our state.
Speaker 1:Robert, the scriptures would teach us that we need to protect life and preserve the dignity of every child. This is our mission Protect the life and preserve the dignity of every child. Of course we're 100% pro-life Protect each and every child, every single baby, boy and girl, from conception and without exception. So legalized murder would be prohibited, no matter what the situation is. It's never okay to murder an innocent child. But, robert, being 100% pro-life is not enough and that may sound odd to some of your listeners, but it's true. We have to also be 100% pro-dignity and preserve the dignity of each and every child. Now I'm talking about a child that is slain in the womb. We have to provide equal legal protection for every single baby, so that all parties to the crime face legal consequences just as if they had performed the crime against a person outside the womb.
Speaker 1:The 14th Amendment says no state shall deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law. So this is each precious little one made in God's image. Think about it, robert. Animals and plants have life, right, they're alive also. But we, image bearers of God, are completely unique. Our life and our dignity is set apart because we're made to enjoy God, to love God and to love one another. Nothing else in creation is like us. So the dignity, the humanity of a murdered child must be preserved. Equal legal protection is required to preserve this dignity. Murder is a crime against an image bearer, not against a piece of property or an animal or a tree, and the South Carolina GOP platform agrees with this, robert. It says we believe the 14th Amendment's protection applies to unborn children. Unborn children should be classified as legal persons, not as legal property.
Speaker 1:Now, robert, this needs to be said. South Carolina Citizens for Life is just dead wrong on this question and they vehemently disagree with equal legal protection. They say that the mother is always, always a victim, no matter what, and we just disagree with them. We're so thankful for the good things they've done through the years, but, in love and in respect towards them as our brothers and sisters in Christ, we plead with them to reconsider and we'd love to have an opportunity to talk about this, have a public conversation about this. So we need to be both pro-life and pro-dignity, because partial justice is not true justice and remember, true justice is equal legal protection for every baby, beginning at conception, without exception.
Speaker 1:Robert, there's not just a problem with mission, but there's also a problem with method. What is a biblical method? We are to seek mission accomplishment every single year. That means we're going to have a bill that would accomplish the mission put forward every single year. But it's okay for us to receive providentially supplied gradual gains if we don't get total victory. Now, robert, it's critical. Your listeners understand this is not the same as the endless defeatist incrementalism that we've been exposed to for decades, where they never put an abolition bill forward. They just want to regulate and regulate forever, which is especially unacceptable now under Dobbs. But also, robert, this is not the rejection of all bills containing any unjust language. There's a movement in our state right now, pushed by Equal Protection, south Carolina, and they claim that it's always wrong to accept a bill that contains any unjust language. And they have some biblical foundation for this.
Speaker 1:Isaiah 10.1 says woe to those who decree unrighteous decrees. Now we agree that we must call our legislators to establish true justice now. We tell them woe to you who decree unrighteous decrees. We warn them about not putting into law unrighteous decrees and we want them to seek abolition every year. But if necessary, robert, it's okay to accept providentially delivered gains, because Proverbs 24, 11 says rescue those who are being taken away to death. We rescue those we can.
Speaker 1:If total victory is thwarted and again, this is not the same thing as making unjust decrees. This is erasing and replacing prior unjust language. It's erasing prior unjust decrees. So this is thwarting some of the evil. That's been done before. But we can't just do this immediately, at the beginning of the effort, robert, I'm sure you've seen this they all stand up on day one and say we have to add the exceptions because we can't win without them. No, we admit defeat of total victory only after a full effort, going all the way through the process itself, and then when we see we can't reach our goal.
Speaker 1:If the language that's, there will be an advancement With grief, we can accept, but we have to protest. We have to protest it and we have to promise that we're going to come back in the future and fight for the best language and we'll be grateful for our gains that we've made, but we'll also express grief for the babies left behind. And again, this is not the same thing as the endless defeatist incrementalism. It's not retreatist, it's not cowardly compromise. This is biblical wisdom and I think that our movement would be so much more together if Equal Protection South Carolina could see this and embrace this and get this out to their followers as well. I mean, I love those guys. I've prayed with them, I've talked with them, I know them. You know Personhood South Carolina. Our board went to their banquet. We love what they're doing, but we think they're wrong when it comes to this issue of method and so, similarly to what I said about Citizens for Life in love and respect and Christ towards my brothers and sisters at Equal Protection South Carolina, we ask them to stop and reconsider. I think our movement would be so much more powerful and so much more unified if we could see that happen.
Speaker 1:Finally, robert, we need to have a biblical manner. We need to be like Jesus. Brother, I was so guilty of this when I got into this, that cage stage, just being really ungracious towards people. We need to be like Jesus, full of grace and truth, just like our Lord, unifying even if we're still in disagreement, like equal protection and citizens for life and personhood and anybody else. If we want to end abortion, we should be able to work together even in the midst of our disagreement. We need to be gracious and humble servants, but we also need to be courageous warriors and we need to be like Jesus, full of grace and truth, learning how to lay aside, taking things personally, never being belligerent or rude and not caring at all about who gets the credit, just wanting the name of the Lord Jesus to be glorified, that he would increase and we would decrease. And you know, in our warmth and our Christ-likeness, robert, that we could be like Wilberforce, who would warm the hearts even of his opponents. You know, even his political opponents applauded the day of political victory.
Speaker 1:I love this quote from one of his constituents who wrote this letter to him.
Speaker 1:His constituent said I never saw you but once, but that day you won my heart and every honest heart in the country, in the county.
Speaker 1:I never felt the power of eloquence until that day. The contrast of your address and the mellow tone of your voice with the bellowing, screaming attempts at speaking and some others, was most wonderful. You breathed energy and vigor into the desponding souls of the timid and sent us home with joy and delight. That's who we need to be, robert, in this fight is individuals that are even our greatest foes in the battle would find their hearts warmed around us. So, robert, abortion is legalized murder we have to remember this, and our legislature is paralyzed is legalized murder we have to remember this and our legislature is paralyzed. But we share the blame and we just need to repent of our sins and cry out to God for his mercy and press on in unity together. And I am so hopeful that this message can get out and we can see our state united behind a biblical vision for victory and we can really see our legislators get on board and that God would just move Robert and that we'd see major activity and victory.
Dr. Jackson:Oh man, oh man, I hear you, my brother, and I'm in full agreement with everything that you've said. My heart is stirred and I can promise you that I've been praying and will be praying, and I can promise you that I've been praying and will be praying. In fact, brother Matt and I pray on Thursdays early in the morning about this whole matter together, and have been praying together for several years now.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Dr. Jackson:And it's a delight, it's a delight to pray with you, it's a delight to put my heart together with you about this whole issue and I want you to know I really appreciate your fervor and your passion about this and your insight. I appreciate the message that you've just shared with us. I want you to know I'm going to encourage my listeners to download this message and I'm going to ask you to take it and pass it around. Share it with your friends, with your pastors, with your pro-life friends and constituents, because I think this message really needs to get out there. There are a lot of folks that need to hear this, to ponder it deeply, and there's a lot of folks out there that really need to take action.
Dr. Jackson:I've said it many times that our legislators don't see the light until they feel the heat. I've said it many times that our legislators don't see the light until they feel the heat. And it's up to you and me to educate them, to light a fire under them but, more importantly, to pray for them. It's only the Spirit of God who can change the heart of our legislators so that they have the same passion that you and I have about this issue. And I'm telling you.
Dr. Jackson:When our legislators have a broken and contrite spirit about the murder of unborn citizens, you and I won't have to call them on the phone or write them a letter.
Dr. Jackson:They will charge the Hill and they will pass the legislation that makes abortion illegal in our state. You won't have to prod them or push them. They will be the ones who make things happen to preserve and protect the life of our unborn brothers and sisters in the womb. It'll be the Spirit of God who lights a fire in their heart, but until then, it's our responsibility to educate them and to pray for them. Until then, you and I must repent, we must ask the Spirit of God to light a fire in our own hearts and we must learn to work together, all of us as brothers and sisters in Christ. I believe that we all have a sincere desire to bring an end to abortion in South Carolina, to make it past history in our state. But we have to learn to work together, we have to learn to pray together, and I believe that that day is going to come soon in South Carolina. Dr Matt Clark, I want you to know I appreciate you and I appreciate you coming on to More Than Medicine and sharing your insights.
Speaker 1:It's a great joy to be with you again, Robert.
Dr. Jackson:Thank you for your time. You're listening to More Than Medicine. My guest today is Dr Matt Clark, my good friend, my good pro-life friend, allergist and physician down in North Augusta, South Carolina. Dr Clark, I hope you'll come and be with me again sometime.
Speaker 1:Me too, Robert. I look forward to it.
Dr. Jackson:All right, thank you, sir. This is More Than Medicine. I'm your host, dr Robert Jackson, till next week. May the Lord bless you real good.
Dr. Matt Clark:Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, instagram or webpage at jacksonfamilyministrycom. Also, don't forget to check out Dr Jackson's books that are available on Amazon. The Family Doctor Speaks the Truth About Life in his first book. And the Family Doctor Speaks the Truth About Life in his first book. And the Family Doctor Speaks the Truth About Seed Planting. Equipping Believers for Evangelism is his second.
