MTM - Exposing the Injustice of Same Sex Marriage

A baby asks for “mama,” and two adults laugh back, “There is no mama.” That short viral moment is heartbreaking on the surface, but we think it also reveals something deeper about the way modern culture talks about same-sex marriage, commercial surrogacy, and what counts as a family.

I’m joined by my daughter Hannah as we slow down and look past the news cycle. We start with why the video felt so evil to so many people, not only because it provokes a child to tears, but because it treats a child’s mother as optional. From there we revisit a question some people warned about years ago after Obergefell: what about the children? We talk plainly about how no “private” adult choice stays private once a child is involved, and why children’s rights must come before adult agendas.

We also bring in the child development and sociology side. We outline what social scientists commonly acknowledge about socioemotional health: biology matters, gender differences matter, and parental loss is harmful whether it comes through divorce, abandonment, death, adoption, IVF, or third party reproduction. We challenge the slogan “love is enough,” discuss why some studies are methodologically weak, and point listeners to research associated with Paul Sullins and Mark Regnerus. Finally, we share testimony from adult children and stories drawn from Katie Faust’s Them Before Us, where “father mother hunger” shows up again and again.

If you care about faith, family, and the real-world impact of marriage and reproductive technology on kids, listen through to the end, then subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

Transcript

Welcome And Why We Wait

SPEAKER_02 0:04

More than medicine, where Jesus is more than enough for the illness that culture is hosted by authoring physician Dr. Robert Jackson and his wife Carlotta and Daughter Annabella. So listen up because the doctor is Annie.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Welcome to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Jackson, bringing to you biblical insights and stories from the country doctor's rusty dusty scrapbook. I am privileged today to have my lovely daughter, Miss Hannah, in the studio with me today. Miss Hannah, welcome.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

Dad, it's always a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Well, I think it's more my pleasure than yours. All right, so tell me, what is the issue for today?

SPEAKER_03 0:51

So probably pretty much everybody that listens to this podcast is seen a snippet about this story. And it happened a couple of weeks ago. And in our social media culture, uh the 24-7 news, things just happen and then they're passed in a blast. And we move on to the next sensational thing. But if you follow dad's podcast more than medicine, and if you follow my my podcast when I was doing it, I'm on a hiatus right now. Um we tend to respond to things a little bit later because we want to be reflective and we want to think about some things. That's right. And so this story was from a couple of weeks ago, and it's uh there is no mama. And if you recognize that phrase, uh many of you will probably recognize that phrase, but if you don't, there was a viral video that went around a couple weeks ago, and it exposed the injustice that is at the heart of same-sex marriage and commercial surrogacy. And it's a man bouncing a baby on his lap and he asks, Who do you want, dad, dad, or pop? And the baby answered, mama, to which both the man

The Viral “There Is No Mama”

SPEAKER_03 2:05

and his unseen partner, who's, I assume, behind the camera, they laughed at the baby and they said, There is no mama. And then they continued to badger the baby until that baby began to cry. And of course, the most obvious thing that just has all of us recoiling in that video is that they are relentlessly teasing and provoking this baby, literally provoking this baby to wrath, which the scriptures tell fathers not to do. And that causes everybody watching it to recoil. But the other uh deeper evil that's happening here is not that the men were were mean or just mean, it's in fact that they were, you know, being mean was only the insult that was added to the injury of forcing their uh fake marriage arrangement on a baby and then calling it a family. And that's the deeper evil that's happening here. Um, and we all instinctively know it. Now, not everybody wants to put their finger on it, and a lot of people just want to say, oh, it's wrong, whether you're a man or a woman or a mom or a dad to make fun of and tease and provoke a baby like this. Um, but we all re recognize that that deeper evil is happening there, and that is why that teasing is just so disgusting, and why so many of us just were it's bad, but that just makes it evil. And it really is. It is not an exaggeration.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

It provoked an indignation in literally m multitudes of people when they saw that video, because you see, these two men were exchanging the truth of God for a lie.

SPEAKER_03 3:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

That's Romans chapter one. And and they were trying to make all of us accept their fake relationship as if it was acceptable, and it's not. And as that little baby grows older, they're gonna try to force upon that little baby their fake relationship as if it's acceptable when it's not.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

And see, this was the thing that so many years ago when Oberfeld was passed, there was a very small minority who poked their heads up and you know, they took the hits, God bless them, for saying, wait a minute, you know, everybody wants to just say we don't care what you do in your bedroom. And and then same-sex marriage doesn't matter because it's just you in your bedroom. And there were people even then who said, wait a minute, what about the children?

SPEAKER_00 4:47

What about the children?

SPEAKER_03 4:48

What's going to happen when this you know it doesn't just affect the bedroom? And it's just silliness for us to say, because we all know sin has a ripple effect. All of our, and not just sin, all of our actions have a ripple effect, whether they're good or they're bad, affect everyone around us. And to try to pretend that whatever you're doing in the bedroom, whatever actions that you're taking in life are not going to positively or negatively influence the children in your life is is just a straight up lie. And it's just people sticking their head in the sands, and then here we are, not you know, not too much down the road of Oberfeld having been passed, and here we have this evil happening and it going viral, and those fathers not even thinking,

The Hidden Injustice Behind The Joke

SPEAKER_03 5:40

they're not fathers, those men not thinking twice about posting it on the internet.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

That's exactly right. So that's right.

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Are you do you want me to get to I I have a I have a question for you. All right, so what do social scientists say that children seek for uh with when they're looking for healthy socioemotional health, or that the children need for socioem emotional health?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Let me let me tell you, the social scientists agree, and and this applies to all children, okay, not not just to children of gay and lesbian parents. This applies to to children of of a man and a woman, or parents that have been divorced, uh, children that are or the the children of say surrogates or children that have been adopted. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what their situation is. Number one is biology matters. Biological parents are statistically the safest, the most invested, and the most permanent people in a child's life. And in contrast, non-biologically related caregivers tend to be more dangerous and transitory, and they invest less time and resources in the children. The second thing is that gender matters. Men and women bring complementary benefits to child rearing. When one gender is missing, particularly the male, predictable patterns of early sexual behavior among girls and criminal behavior among boys typically arise. And then parental loss is harmful. The psychological community widely acknowledges that children suffer trauma and negative fallout from the loss of one or both parents in cases of divorce, abandonment, death, or third party reproduction. So that's what the social scientists say about children and their needs.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

So I thought, though, that love was enough. Isn't that the mantra, you know, love is enough. And it doesn't matter who that's what you hear all of the time. That data flies in the face of that mantra that they try to, you know, really just beat into your brain and shove down your throat that love is enough. There's

What About The Children After Obergefell

SPEAKER_03 8:25

no difference between kids who are raised in the house of gay parents and kids who are raised in the home of straight parents, uh, where there's with a mom and dad.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

So And so look, they'll tell you that studies show that children with same-sex parents do better in school.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

So what about those studies?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Well, first of all, I'm gonna say liar, liar, pants on fire. Okay? Because and and here's why. Because these studies that they quote have all almost entirely been done with poor methodology. And their uh their what's the word I'm looking for? Objective has been political ideology rather than good methodology. And so what they've been trying to do is foist upon the public a political agenda rather than pursuing good solid scientific methodology.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

That should not surprise us at all.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

No, it doesn't surprise us at all. Let me begin with this. The good data illuminates the many ways kids struggle with divorce and remarriage of the parents. When the new spouse is someone of the opposite sex, the kids still struggle. You know, kids are the broken pieces. And when they're in a broken marriage, and then there's a divorce and remarriage, those kids struggle. Why would we not think that children who end up with two parents of the same sex, you would you think they're not gonna struggle? That's foolishness. Kids orphaned or abandoned and subsequently adopted by opposite sex parents tend to suffer lasting effects of losing when you got kids orphaned or abandoned and subsequently adopted by opposite sex parents, they tend to suffer lasting effects of

What Social Science Says Kids Need

SPEAKER_00 10:35

losing their parents. That's also a fact. And then kids born courtesy of a sperm or egg donation and raised by opposite sex parents, they face the hardship of what's called genealogical bewilderment. That's another fact. Statistically, all kids in the above demographics face diminished outcomes despite benefiting from complementary relationships of a mom and a dad. So got so let's think about this. Children raised in same-sex headed homes all share the same origin stories as the kids above. They're a product of a divorce, they're adopted, or they were don't or conceived. Yet somehow we're expected to believe that the feelings of loss, abandonment, and identity struggles of kids in the aforementioned demographic suddenly vanish. When the kids are raised by a same sex couple, give me a break. Despite the fact these kids have the added disadvantage of missing the gender specific benefits of a male and female parent. This detached from reality conclusion is obviously motivated by something other than than dispassionate data. So I I just think it's foolishness to think that you can have same-sex parents in the midst of divorce, remarriage, or death of one of the spouses and and not have all of these emotional problems.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Because as you're saying, uh a same-sex uh parents, and I'm gonna put air quotes around that, are often the result of some sort, or almost all every time the result of some sort of trauma. There had to have been a man and a woman that created that child, and one of them them is now not in the picture. And it doesn't matter if it's surrogacy, if it's adoption, if it's loss, uh any of those things, divorce, any of that causes trauma for a child because one of their parents is no longer there. And so to now act like, you know, just because they have two parents, because as you said, even if a child loses a parent and their mother remarries, there's still damage and trauma that's been done. So whether she marries a man or a woman, and we try to pretend that we all know that if she was to remarry a man, oh, we recognize that there's trauma, but suddenly if she remarries a woman, there's no trauma. It's all it's all fine.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

That's crazy talk.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

It is crazy talk, and it's it's uh very hypocritical, and we're just talking out of two sides of her mouth there.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

So I think does that cover uh all of the legit studies that you kind of know? All right, so you got more for us.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

Yeah, I got there's two men that people need to know about. One is a guy named Paul Sullens, S-U-L-L-I-N-S, and and he's done some pretty long big studies that are legit. Okay, and then there's a gu another guy named Regneris, who also has done some fairly

Why “Love Is Enough” Fails

SPEAKER_00 14:05

large studies that people need to know about. But I'm just gonna give you the upshot of the of the studies. Um in Sullens' study, he found that children who um were in same-sex households where both parents were of the same sex, um, in terms of depression as an adolescent, well, let me say this, depression as an adult, once they grew up out of that kind of a household, they were fifty-one percent more likely to have depression compared to children raised in a opposite sex uh household, with their d rate of depression was about nineteen percent. Uh their tendency to have suicide as an adolescent, 43% in the same-sex household compared to 13% in a opposite sex household. Feelings of being distant from their parents as an adolescent, 91% compared to 35% in opposite sex household. And I mean, it it just for example, obesity as an adult, seventy-one percent for the same-sex adults, um, thirty-seven percent for those who were in a opposite sex family, and so they're just all kind of warning signs that the same-sex households created issues for the adolescents and for them when they grew up to be adults. Um moving on.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Um it was were did you want to share data from the other one or just that one? Because I don't want to rush you.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

No, there's a there's a guy named uh Regneros, let me see if I can find his while you're looking that up.

SPEAKER_03 16:05

I'll tell folks if you have not read the book Them Before Us by Katie Faust, and that's Katie K-A-T-Y F A-U-S-T, you need to, because this book is it it's been published for a few years now. I happen to see it and read it pretty quick after it came out, and it has it really helped me formulate a biblical ethic on this topic and on the topic of surrogacy, IVF, adoption, abortion, and just children's rights. And that's kind of the subtitle of her book is um children's it is about children's rights, and I highly recommend that you get this book. Uh, it will teach you something. It will teach you something in in these categories. It's very informational. So it did you find the other one you want to give? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

There was another study called the New Family Structure Study by Regneris, and uh what he did was he asked randomly selected adult children with who had gay or lesbian parents, and he asked them about their upbringing. And when they were able to speak for themselves as adults, he said of twenty-five out of forty outcomes, you know, forty different questions that were evaluated uh the statistically significant differences between children from intact biological families and those of mothers in lesbian relationships in many areas that were unambiguously suboptimal, such as receiving welfare, need for therapy, unfaithfulness in marriage, sexually transmitted infections, sexually sexual victimization, educational attainment, safety of the family of origin, depression, attachments, dependencies, marijuana use, frequency of smoking, and criminal behavior. On all of those uh questions, eleven out of forty outcomes, there were statistically significant differences between children from intact biological families and those who reported having a a father and a gay relationship in areas such as thoughts of suicide, sexually transmitted

The Studies Critics Cannot Ignore

SPEAKER_00 18:35

information, uh infection, being forced to have sex against their will, safety of the family of origin, depression, relationship qualities, frequency of smoking, and criminal behavior. So uh you know, all of those things were statistically significant. And the children who were in uh well from a family with uh uh gay parents did poorly, very poorly on these relationships. And when he published that story, that this study, it was like a mic drop among the sociology community because it proved liar, liar, pants on fire, for all those previous sociology studies and showed that they were really just agenda driven.

SPEAKER_03 19:23

They put their fingers on the scale uh for those.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Exactly right, exactly right. Uh so go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Well, uh the I I I think one of my last questions, what do adult kids say? Because you just brought that up in in that talk in in those studies. Yep. What do adult kids say who were raised by gay or lesbian parents? And because you know, when they're kids, most of them are all brainwashed into you know being told this is just fine and love is enough, and you know, and they don't know any better because they're kids. But then once they become adults and they're able to kind of look back um and then think a little more critically, what what and and now that we've had Oberfell for a while, we have had an explosion of same-sex marriages, couples raising children, um, and what are these adults now saying who were raised in those homes?

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Well, this is one of the benefits of Katie Faust's book, because in every chapter where she talks about either same-sex marriage or transgender or surrogacy or all the various things that um she discusses in the book Them Before Us, she she ends her chapters with quotes from children raised in all these various relationships. And so in this particular chapter about same-sex parents, she has children who talk about their father-mother hunger. And so she she starts with quoting um uh a male acquaintance of hers who lives next door to a four-year-old boy with two moms. And the male friend of hers said that that whenever he hosts the little boy's family for play dates with his kids, that this little boy who has two moms is quick to climb onto his lap and calls him Daddy. Then he goes on to talk about Gabe, who coaches his daughter's fourth grade softball team, and he has shared stories of father hungry Mandy. This team member has two moms, and she can't get enough rough housing with Gabe like she sees him do with his own daughter. Gabe recalls one awkward softball practice during which Mandy shouted across the field to one of her moms, saying, Hey mom, can you marry Gabe so he can be my daddy? How embarrassing was that? And then one of the school nurses that the author knew shared the story of a little boy adopted by two dads, whose life has by all accounts stabilized since he joined their family. Still, this little boy finds any excuse to come to the nurse's office for a hug and call her mommy in whispered tones. No one has told these kids they should want a mother and a father. These longings arise in them organically, because wanting a mom and a dad is integral to the human experience. One of the contributors to Katie Faust's book was a woman named Um Samantha Weesing. And she spent the first eight years of her life in the care of her father and his male partner.

Adult Children Describe Father Mother Hunger

SPEAKER_00 23:05

She remembers the devastation she experienced when she realized mothers existed and how desperately she craved one, and this is her testimony. My formative years were almost entirely devoid of women. I didn't even know that there was such a thing as a mother until I watched the movie The Land Before Time at school. My five year old brain could not understand why I didn't have the mom that I suddenly desperately wanted. I felt the loss. I felt the hole. As I grew I tried to fill that hole with aunts, my dad's lesbian friends and teachers. I remember asking my first grade teacher if I could call her mom. I asked that question of any woman who showed me any amount of love and affection. It was instinctive. I craved a mother's love even though I was well loved by my two gay dads. And you see, that instinctive craving for a mom or a dad is in every child.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

And as she said, she had by all accounts a stable home environment. It didn't seem there was no abuse going on, they they doesn't sound like they were on welfare, you know, none of those things. It's just that God has put into every child a biological desire for mother and father, and not just anybody. And you know, an adoption is a beautiful thing and all that it can be very beautiful, but it's still there is something about having your biological parents, and that's why we all understand that it's so devastating for a child to lose a biological parent. And even when a stepparent is able to help fill that void, it's never perfect, and there's always loss and grief. Um, and it's just that that book is so powerful and eye-opening with all of the testimonies that it gives and it provides. Um, and it just shows love is not enough.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Love is not enough. It's not the Bible says that God created them, male and female. Male and female, he created them. Children need a mom and a dad. And we as adults are responsible to sometimes die to ourselves in order to provide what is best for our children. And there's so many adults out there who are only thinking about their own needs, their own desires, their own agenda. When they are adopting children or pursuing surrogacy or in vitro fertilization, they're only thinking about themselves. And I hate to say it that way, but it is the truth. And God did not intend many of the social uh

Biblical Takeaways And Closing Links

SPEAKER_00 26:20

arrangements that adults are pursuing in our culture. And we'll talk about more about some of these other arrangements in another podcast. But for now, uh I share the anger that so many felt when they saw these two dads bouncing a little baby on their knee and saying to him, to the little baby, there is no mama. And that's a fake, farcical relationship. And these men are exchanging the truth of God for a lie. You're listening to More Than Medicine. I'm your host, Dr. Robert Jackson. My guest today is my lovely daughter, Miss Hannah. I'll be back again next week. Until then, may the Lord bless you real good.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Thank you for listening to this edition of More Than Medicine. For more information about the Jackson Family Ministry or to schedule a speaking engagement, go to their Facebook page, Instagram, or webpage at Jackson Family Ministry dot com.