77. Turning 70: Sian Lockwood on Ageing, Purpose and OOPS

On the day before my 70th birthday (how did that happen?!), I wanted to mark the occasion by talking to someone who is making us all think differently about ageing.

My guest is Sian Lockwood - co-founder of WIGO (When I Get Old) and writer of the brilliant OOPS blog: Outspoken Older People Subverting.

We talk about what it really feels like to get older - from feeling 35 in your head (most of the time!) to navigating the realities of changing energy, friendships, family life and purpose.

There’s honesty, humour, a bit of ranting about ageism … and a strong sense that life is still very much for living.

A warm, wise and gently subversive conversation about growing older - and making it count.

🍋💡🍋 Lemon Lightbulbs from this episode 

💡 You don’t stop needing purpose just because you get older.

💡 Ageing isn’t one thing — some days you’re 35, some days you’re 120.

💡 Being older can make you invisible — unless you choose not to be.

💡 Purpose doesn’t retire when you do.

💡 Don’t waste a minute of the time that’s left.

💡 Slowing down can help you notice more, not less.

💡 It’s not about pretending to be young — it’s about living fully as you are.

💡 Older people still want to contribute, not just be cared for.

💡 Sometimes the best thing for your wellbeing is to get up and do something for someone else.

LINKS

OOPS blog - Outspoken Older People Subverting

WIGO - When I Get Old campaign

Brian Dolan - End PJ paralysis

Episode 64. Dorothy Hall - age discrimination in the NHS

Episode 67. VE Day Special - Dulcie Matthews and Dorothy Hall - Hope, Resilience, and the Spirit of Coventry

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Transcript

Gill Phillips  0:00  

Gill. My name is Gill Phillips, and I'm the creator of whose shoes, a popular approach to coproduction. I was named as an HSJ100 wild card, and want to help give a voice to others talking about their experiences and ideas. I love chatting with people from all sorts of different perspectives, walking in their shoes. If you are interested in the future of health care, and like to hear what other people think, or perhaps even contribute at some point, wild card who shoes is for you. So hello and welcome to another episode of wild card who shoes. And on the day I publish this episode, it will be the day before my 70th birthday, I wondered how to mark this momentous event on the podcast, and I thought, Who better to speak to than Sian Lockwood, who has recently started her oops blog, which I absolutely love, outspoken older people, subverting I want to be one of those. Perhaps I already am. I don't know that wasn't meant to be the script. I think you are. Sian is also co founder of WIGO. When I get old, you may remember the episode I recorded with her entertaining friend and partner in crime on this topic, Angela Catley. Sian is 71 and here I am on the cusp of 70. Another decade quickly passed. So what does it feel like to be in your 70s? I feel like a bit of a fraud, as I won't be 70 until tomorrow, but I'm going to ask Joan, and we'll see where the conversation leads, and

Sian Lockwood  1:58  

what a question that is. So

Gill Phillips  2:04  

we can have fun on this one, Sian,

Sian Lockwood  2:07  

it's it's uncharted territory, that's what it is. So I think part of the reason I started the blog was to chart for myself the many unexpected and sometimes wonderful things that come with just being a bit older. But it is Uncharted, and it's so varied. There are days when I feel 35 actually, I feel 35 of my head the whole time, and then I look at myself in the mirror and realize I'm not. But there are days when physically, I feel about 120 and other days when I'm, you know, 70 and other days when I feel a lot better. So it's quite variable I'm finding and what is really interesting is the the way other people see you. So I've got a lot of people, including my husband, actually now start to talk about old age. You know that I'm right. I'm old, they're old. We've all got things wrong with us. You end up having dinner party conversations which are entirely about ill health with people of about the same age, which I'm resisting.

Gill Phillips  3:19  

Yeah, it's very easy, isn't it? Get drawn into that,

Sian Lockwood  3:23  

and my children see me as somebody to protect now, do they? Yeah, and that's wonderful. I mean, it's lovely that they love us and they want to make sure we're okay, but they're worried you can see it, and you cause you become invisible to a lot of people. So I was on a train yesterday coming back from Leeds, which and full of students, and it was fascinating that that people just looks straight through you. And I think that's that's something about how old age can be seen in this country, I don't know if is that coherent, Gill?

Gill Phillips  4:02  

Yeah, it is. Why do you think that is? I mean, you're on a train. Why do you feel invisible?

Sian Lockwood  4:11  

Um, I, I don't know. Actually, I think it's because when I was younger, I was used to making eye contact a lot with people. Yeah, I'm a chatty sort of a person, and I like chatting to people on trains, and so I'm used to starting the chat with, uh, with eye contact and the smile and all that. And for the students, bless them, just their eyes skated over me, right? And I really noticed that yesterday. And I mean, you know, everybody's in their own world. They are interested in the people they're interested in, which is people their own age. But I do think there's something about people's anxiety about old age, which makes it hard for them to to see. Be an older person,

Gill Phillips  5:03  

yeah, I think that's true, yeah. And I think when you're young, I mean, I can remember some outrageous things. I remember when I was 16 and my brother had a 19 year old girlfriend, and I thought that was pretty old. I know, I know. And I think remembering things like that, yeah. And do you know what old really is? What is? It's 10 years older than

Sian Lockwood  5:24  

you are now. No, I know older now for me, actually older now for me, is 15 years on. So I think 85 is, you know, I'm expecting to crumble a bit when I'm 85 right?

Gill Phillips  5:37  

15? Yeah, but it's

Sian Lockwood  5:38  

also, it's also you do start to see the end, don't you, and and I think that's one of the other interesting for me. One of the interesting things about being older is recognizing I'm not going to live forever, and that there is an end that is approaching, and that's quite that can be really good, because it focuses your mind and it makes you get on with things and and do the things you want to do while you while you're still able to do them. Yeah? But it's just an odd time to be in, because when you're young, the world stretches ahead of you, doesn't it? It's it goes on forever, yeah? And, and then that just and for me, Gill, like you're not retired, and I am. But for me, retirement brought that horizon closer, right? Because while I was working, I was too busy to think really about age or anything apart from the job, yeah, but once I retired, that there was nothing between me and and the kind of the final end which isn't gloomy, I'm not being morbid, it's just reality. And it made me determined that I wasn't going to waste a minute of the of the time that's left to me, however long that is, yeah, so we've done, you know, a lot of people do a lot of traveling when they retire. Don't know, we've done some traveling and gone to some places. But it's also wanting to, I don't know, love the people you love, and give time to your friends and and it's also that's where we go. Came from, because I thought there is an important campaign with WIGO, and nobody else is going to do it, so Angela and I will do it. But that came from a sort of recognition of time short. So you need to use it.

Gill Phillips  7:41  

Yeah, and it's such an important campaign, isn't it? So when I get old is actually relevant to all of us, some a bit sooner than others, but yeah, you know, when you're young, like you say you don't, don't think about it. And just coming back to what you were saying just then, I think the other one, I mean, you were talking about when you retire, and as you say, I haven't got there yet. I'm still pretty busy with whose shoes and all the stuff I do in the podcast, as well as life. I think the other big one is when your parents die. And I was very lucky in that my parents both died old. But when that happens, I've heard it described as kind of like a roof over your head has gone. And I think you become that oldest generation, which is quite a responsibility, I think, within your your family,

Sian Lockwood   8:33  

and you're right. I mean, my mum died six years ago now, and she was 92 so she lived to a good age. She lived with us for quite a lot of it over her last year, right? And she she was living with dementia, so it was hard for her to live by herself anymore, yeah. And her dying was incredibly difficult. And it was partly that it was just thinking, oh, right, okay, so I'm the old one now, and the children saw it a bit like that, that, yes, their grandma had been the older person, and now suddenly I was, and I'm fairly sure they started to get protective at about that point, not because

Gill Phillips  9:21  

I needed it, yeah. I mean, everybody bumps up a generation, don't they?

Sian Lockwood  9:25  

It does, yeah. So for

Gill Phillips  9:27  

them as well, they haven't got those two levels above them. They've only got their parents, yeah.

Sian Lockwood  9:33  

And looking after mum was a huge privilege, actually. And we were very lucky, because she kind of descended into a puddle of love, really, and she she didn't really know me, she didn't know anybody by the end, but she did know she loved us. That was wonderful, yeah. So it was a real privilege, but it was, it was all so sad that that her last year was like that.

Gill Phillips  10:00  

Yeah, yeah. So both of my in laws had dementia, and we had a lot to do with looking after them, and they had a completely different experience of it, one from the other, thankfully, not at the same time as each other, but, you know, a very, very different experience. So these things are so individual, aren't they?

Sian Lockwood  10:19  

They are, they are. And I think my experience with mum partly informed Wigo, because I was so furious at how other people treated her, about the services that were not there for her, about all the promises that were made, you know, you we were looking for, when she was living at home, we were looking for, you know, a care agency. She funded her own care, and they make all sorts of promises that they don't deliver. So it's going to be consistent care, you know, match with one or two people. And actually it was 12 people a week, and it wasn't safe. So it's just partly why she came to live with us, because I could, I could just be there and make sure she was, she was both happy and safe. And it was interesting that when she came to us, she the house wasn't suitable, really, but she came and her place was in the center of the kitchen. That's where she had her chair that was she was comfortable in, and the sort of life revolved around her. And she helped where she could. She held my daughter's baby first after the baby was born, and, oh, wow. And her job was holding the baby for quite a long time after that, and she really wanted to feel valuable, and actually, within a household, she was but she wasn't seen like that anywhere else, so she went to a day service. I'm going to rant if you're not careful. Gill, but she went to a day service, toddler, you know, they did crafting activities and Easter bonnets and Christmas hats. And she went to it, bless her, because she knew I was still working, so I needed to know she was okay. So she did go to it, yeah, but it was, it was demeaning, I think, for her, looking back, yeah. And the hospital, talk about it in the oops blog. The hospital, when she broke her leg, there were two nurses outside her door saying, well, we don't need to worry about physio with her, because she is 92 so getting her back on her feet isn't that important.

Gill Phillips  12:48  

And, my goodness, that's outrageous, yeah.

Sian Lockwood  12:51  

And what they got was a very angry daughter, and she got the physio she needed, and she was back walking again. But it was, it was Yeah, and there was so little out there that was appropriate,

Gill Phillips  13:04  

and I can see why you'd be so angry having spent your life really with, you know, as I understand it, Shared Lives and Community Catalyst, deliberately helping people have better lives, and, you know, better quality of life. So it's hard when it's

Sian Lockwood    13:21  

your own mum. It is hard when it's your own Munt. But I hadn't known, I hadn't properly known in my heart how bad it was until because most of my working life was, you know, enabling people to have choice of really good local things that would help them live really great lives, mostly, though, with a focus on working age adults. And it was only when I retired, when I had the experience with Munt, and when I started to talk to older friends as well that I realized the kind of ageism that lies in well, in the whole of public discourse about older people as there's a thread of ageism that runs through that. There's ageism that is in commissioning. You know, it's cheaper, so somebody with an equivalent level of need, who is a working age adult, will get more money allocated to them if they are publicly funded, than an older person with that level of need. So people with cognitive impairment, for example, so you've got, you've got that, you've got the way providers, even the, you know, the most glitzy of the providers. And we've got some pretty glitzy providers in Harrogate create a sort of hotel atmosphere. But there's no expectation that older people have anything to give, have any purpose, are loving human beings who want to carry on doing the things they enjoy doing. There's none of that. It does make us mad

Gill Phillips  14:57  

and contributing, you know, volunteering and helping. With younger family members and all the things that older people, yeah, very commonly do. It needs to be valued, and it's interesting as well that a condition like dementia typically doesn't qualify for continuous healthcare funding. It doesn't

Sian Lockwood  15:18  

it's seen as a social it's not seen as a long term health problem, which is weird, isn't it?

Gill Phillips  15:25  

Yeah, my mother in law actually got continuous health care funding two weeks before she died, which wasn't really all that helpful. And the battle to get it while she was in hospitals takes you away from the time you actually want to spend with the person it's it's a process set up to make you fail. Yes, whereas, you know, if you've got cancer or something like that, it's much more easy to get it when you when you've got severe needs,

Sian Lockwood  15:55  

yes, yes, it is. It is interesting, isn't it? And I think the the other thing my whole working life has been focused on communities and what people and communities can do for each other. And how do you help that more of that happen, which is what's

Gill Phillips  16:12  

brought us together, isn't it?

Sian Lockwood  :14  

Yes, it is. And the organizations that were really great for mum. Were not services. Yes, I can believe that. So they were a local church where she was able to she was given upset, given jobs to do. That sounds patronizing. It wasn't like that. So there was, they used to do a lunch, and mum was the greeter of new people, because she had a lovely smile and she was kind, so she felt great there, because she had a purpose. And it's simple little things like that, isn't it, that are the difference

Gill Phillips  16:53  

same purpose is everything,

Sian Lockwood  16:54  

isn't it? It is, it is,

Gill Phillips  16:57  

yeah, and that doesn't change just because you happen to be older?

Sian Lockwood  17:01  

No, no. One of the challenges of retirement is creating your own purpose. I think so.

Gill Phillips  17:10  

How do you find purpose? Shaan, you know, I think again, when we get to our age, you start to think in terms of legacy, whatever that means to different people, whether that's for yourself or for your family or for your work. What do you think about any of that?

Sian Lockwood  17:28  

Well, when I retired, the day the day I retired, I thought this is going to be terribly difficult, because I, you know, I created community catalysts, and I loved it and nurtured it and fought for it and all that, and then so walking away from that, I thought was going to be dreadful. And it wasn't really because it was the right time for me to go. It was better that somebody with new energy came and led it, yeah, but it did leave me with with a kind of gap around purposefulness. And I think, I think I'd made a lot of mistakes in the six months after I retired in that I took on all sorts of, you know, trying to fill the gap and carry on being right what I saw as a valuable person. So I joined boards that I didn't, I mean, I'm not a board person. Gill, I hate boards. So I joined boards.

Gill Phillips  18:23  

Yeah, I hate boards.

Sian Lockwood  18:25  

I took on responsibility just to create purpose, really, yeah, and then I managed to realize I was being stupid, and sort of shed all that, and then started again, really, after six months. So, I mean, purpose is partly about relationship, isn't it? So I'm part of the childcare for my grandsons, and that gives me a great sense of purpose. I live with my daughter, son in law and grandsons, and I keep the house going while they work. And that's also purposeful. I've got animals. I've always found delight. I'm not sure its purpose, but it's certainly delight in animals. And I've slowed down a bit, and actually that's been quite good for me, because I've noticed the things I didn't used to notice, because I'm not moving at lightning speed like you will do.

Gill Phillips  19:19  

Gill Well, I do and I don't. I think I notice things. I think I'm not working as hard as I used to. I still really, really enjoy it. It's quite intense. But that doesn't mean that I'm working anything like all the time. So I've got children and grandchildren and look after my grandson, whose preschool in in particular, and it just brings joy. And I think you know to go at the speed of children, and like you say, notice things. I mean, we we've just been for a beautiful walk. And then the bluebells, at the moment, are just stunning. And we saw them last week, and they weren't in the sun. And then we went. Back at the weekend, and the sun was out, so they were that bit better again. Now I'd like to think that I've always noticed things like that. I think for me, taking photos, I take a lot of photos, and sometimes that could be instead of noticing things, but I think for me, it makes me notice things because I'm down, I'm looking closely, and I'm finding the best angle and so on, which I really, really enjoy. So I think it's about having things that fulfill you as a person as well as, you know, whatever outside roles you've got, and perhaps experiencing things a bit more intensely. I think

Sian Lockwood  20:33  

that may be what I mean by slowing down in the I mean, you're right. I mean, we live in the country. I've always loved living in the country and seeing the seasons change and all that. But I have time. I've I allow myself time now to really focus in on, on the bluebells. We have beautiful bluebells too, on the kind of, yeah, the changes every I walk the dogs every day, and that's great, because it allows me to really see the changes from one day to the other in the countryside around me. So that's nice. And volunteering. I volunteer a lot, and and then as we go, so, lots of purpose, just kind of multi multifaceted these days, and friendships are the other thing I've really tried to focus in on as well, because I was, I'm not a very regular friend always. So, you know, it'll go six months and I'll think, Oh, I haven't seen whereas now I think we're all making more effort to see each other and enjoy each other.

Gill Phillips  21:41  

Well, friendships take nurturing, don't they. I think that's something you learn over the years. I mean, just looking back at I think who you end up staying in contact with, somebody has had to have made some effort, really. You know, however good friends you are, it's easy to let good friendships slip away. I mean, something I'm looking forward to, and it's interesting in terms of actually turning 70. I mean, my birthday is in May, and I still think a bit in terms of school years, so I'm still in touch with several of my school friends, and I think it's probably helping me psychologically that I'm not the first so, yeah, three of my friends have already so you were a young I was young within my year group, but I'm going to make the effort to meet up with those London based friends who I'm still in touch with. There's there's one friend, Theresa, who I see regularly anyway, but there are others that I haven't seen for years, and I think for us to get together as a sort of special get together for our turning 70 year, I think it, for me, it's about perhaps making some opportunities and putting a bit of effort into something that otherwise the time just kind of slips by and it's all a bit the same.

Sian Lockwood  22:55  

And I think when you when you're working Muntz race ride, don't they? And you suddenly think, Oh, I have not, yeah, they do. So yes, we've, we've ended up with some. I don't think I've got any old school friends, but my husband does. I've got friends from uni and then friends, different friends at different points along my sort of working life and and from parents, as well as the parents of children who are friends with my children and that, yeah, that's good. The other thing, of course, that happens is more funerals don't mean to be morbid again. Gill, I think it's just the way life's been over the last few I'm thinking that I've lost two really good friends over the last two years who who died.

Gill Phillips  23:47  

Oh, sorry, it's hard, isn't it?

Sian Lockwood  23:49  

I know, and yeah,

Gill Phillips  23:51  

and that's an interesting one in itself, in that my grandma, who I absolutely adored, died when she was 104 and we've got a very small family, and there was hardly anybody at her funeral. Whereas, if she died when she was 7080, even 90, the church would have been packed, because she was a very community based, popular person, and she just outlived everybody. Outlived everybody. I mean, even like the children of some of her friends, you know, dying at quite a reasonable old age. You know? Yeah, it's a mixed blessing, this living forever.

Sian Lockwood  24:27  

I think, I think it is. I mean, my my father in law, I mean, he was 99 and a half. He was, in fact, he was a month off his 100th birthday when he died, and he hated his last years, because every single friend he'd outlived, yeah, it's hard. And he had his family still, and he also, he'd chosen to live in a a village community, a kind of older person's village community. And so that was happening again. So he was making friends. With people when they moved in and then they died before him. And so I think it was loss after loss after loss as he went into his last years.

Gill Phillips  25:10  

Yeah, I saw, do you know Brian Dolan at all?

Sian Lockwood  25:15  

No, tell me,

Gill Phillips  25:18  

Professor Brian Dolan, he does a wonderful campaign about encouraging people to stay active as they get older. He's one of these people that I know quite well and have never actually met in person as we get through our kind of social media lives. And Brian posted a birthday card he got, I think it was last week, and it was better worded than this, but it was one less thing to worry about. You know, at least you don't have to worry about dying young now, which absolutely cracked me up. So I think we all need that card. It's, yeah, there's always a silver lining.

Sian Lockwood  25:58  

Sean, there is, there is. And I do think being aware of aging and of of mortality is actually does bring intensity to life.

Gill Phillips  26:14  

Yes, you know, you do

Sian Lockwood  26:16  

appreciate every minute in a way that I didn't when I was in my 20s, yeah, where I was often wishing life away. I'm not wishing life away now.

Gill Phillips  26:26  

So, yeah, you never wish life away, apart from, like, dental appointments and things like that. I think it's very limited the number of times that you want to wish your life away when you get get a bit older. Yeah. Have you got any tips? I mean, I've got one or two favorite things, so I love kitchen dancing, and I love exercise snacking. Oh, great. And exercise snacking is little bits of exercise that you can do, like while the kettle's boiling, or just while it would have pups, otherwise be dead time. So up there, they're among my tips.

Sian Lockwood  27:01  

Well, I have, well, gardening is my big keeping fit thing, right? Yeah, which I still do with pain these days, but I still do it. And I, because I've got time now, I grow things. So we'd grow a lot of vegetables and fruit. So that's that's probably for me, that's my healthiest activity. And bread making and

Gill Phillips  27:28  

gardening is very good for you, isn't it very good? It is very good for you, because you're moving all your muscles

Sian Lockwood  27:34  

naturally, it is, and you're having to kneel down and stand up, and that is painful, but necessary.

Gill Phillips  27:42  

I've got to put my runner beans in yet.

Sian Lockwood  27:45  

Yeah, and the other, my other tip is kneading, so I make bread. And I've just taken that making pasta with my grandsons, and it's such a good physical thing to do. So you know, if you're if you're tense or anxious, kneading bread, kneading dough is a really great thing to do, and of course, you get nice, nice food at the end of it. So that's

Gill Phillips  28:11  

a good one. They're

Sian Lockwood  28:13  

a bit mundane those tips, aren't they?

Gill Phillips  28:16  

I don't think they are. I don't think they are. I think these days, some quite fancy names can be given to things like mindfulness and the kind of everything becomes a thing, whereas what you've just described, you know, kneading dough with your grandson and the therapeutic effect of that and anything like that, really, that just takes, takes your attention, but without, you know, being overwhelming or difficult or complicated, or, you know, any of those things. I think there were a lot of things to learn from, say, our grandparents and how they had to deal with some obviously incredible stresses, you know, through the war and so on. And I don't know, I mean, I sort of look back at some of those kind of calm activities that I did with my grandma, like counting buttons and threading buttons and things like that that have stuck with me. You know, it's not anything to shout about, but it was just something meaningful to do while we were chatting. Or, you know, sorting, sorting the buttons. I absolutely love playing with their buttons when I was little. And I try with my grandchildren, you know, some of these more old fashioned things, and if you can get them in the right mood, the children, they love it, too. They do just doing simple things.

Sian Lockwood  29:38  

The boys love cooking. 

Gill Phillips  29:41  

Yeah, my grandchildren love cooking,

Sian Lockwood  29:42  

yeah, yeah. So we, we do a lot of cooking together, and that's great for them. Great for me. We have some really nice chats, because they're relaxed and doing something, and I'm doing something and just easier. To talk then. So that's nice.

Gill Phillips  30:03  

You just sort of around each other, aren't you, rather than Yeah, so it's really nice.

Sian Lockwood  30:09  

The only other thing I was going to say was that I'm part of the reason I retired. When I retired is that I've got a health thing, and there are days when I feel terrible. And what is so good for me is having to get up. So I do some early morning volunteering. I cook breakfast for people once a week, and that has been so good for me. So I'll wake up feeling absolutely dreadful, crawl into my car, get to where I'm cooking my breakfast. By the end of it, I feel fantastic.

Gill Phillips  30:46  

That's amazing. That's amazing.

Sian Lockwood  30:48  

Yeah, it's something about, I don't know, not thinking about how you're feeling. Maybe that's another tip to try and try not to, yeah, focus on the bits that are going wrong.

Gill Phillips  31:03  

That sounds like a really good tip in that. I suppose all of it, you know, you get expressions like pushing through, don't you? But that's, that's what you're doing at that moment. Because you know that if you can do that, it will have a good outcome for you, rather than a negative outcome. Whereas sometimes you can push through with something that you know you're going to be absolutely knackered, and then that's when you learn to slow down a bit more, I think, because it's just not, not very wise,

Sian Lockwood  31:33  

I think, yes, it's getting that balance. Yeah, yeah. So more tips from you. Gill, I need more tips from you. Well, I

Gill Phillips  31:42  

was going to say with with my work, I know, so I've had three experiences of breast cancer, so that's been my kind of thing to live with and to get through. And I'm going to definitely get more hoovered these days than I ever used to. And it can be from something really, really positive. So running a workshop, or, I think I put a lot of myself out there, and I used to be able to do it very easily and do back to back stuff, and I can't now. So I suppose a tip from me would be and, you know, it's quite ironic the words coming out of my mouth, but pace yourself and, you know, plan things ahead so that you're actually going to enjoy all of them and give yourself space around things which I have got better at. And I'm quite lucky that I can pretty much control my work and the amount of work to a large extent, but then you still get inevitably, crazy periods, and I think I've told you, I've just started writing a book. I think that might be a turning 70 thing, yeah. And I found myself, it's something I've always wanted to do, but when I started actually doing it, and like, really making some progress, I've always been, like a late hour person, and I found myself doing it, you know, you're not interrupted. It's midnight, it's one o'clock, it's two o'clock, it's possibly even three o'clock. And I, I used to be able to do that. That's how I worked. I mean, when I was a student, that's, that's how I did my best stuff, you know. And I pay for it now, big time. So it's sort of learning that, I suppose, the balance between the fact that perhaps you're, you know, highly creative at that time, and really get a result from it. Is it worth it, in terms of, you know, if you then pay for it for the next couple of days, it's not, but I do find that difficult. So it's not really a tip. It's like, what not to do?

Sian Lockwood  33:43  

Well, maybe you just have to trade after you Yeah,

Gill Phillips  33:49  

yes, you do, yeah. But I think it's, you know, it's just being realistic, I guess it is, and accepting that things do slow down a bit.

Sian Lockwood  33:58  

I get quite cross, you know the anti ageism campaigns that portray older people bungee jumping, and, you know the kind of big adventure, right images? And I think the challenge, okay, is that your body does get, you know, gets things wrong with it and and if you don't learn what you've just talked about, which is that trading, if you think that at 85 you ought to be able to bungee jump and fly gliders and on whatever, but actually, physically, you're you're struggling with, whatever you're struggling with. It's not a it's not a helpful anti ageism message, to pretend you're still young,

Gill Phillips  34:51  

is it? I agree? I agree? Yeah, yeah. And you don't need to pretend you're still young, no. And I think the risk of. Injury to me is, is, you know, I'm actually quite cautious, because you realize how serious an injury can be when you're older and you don't really want them, so don't do things that are likely to put you in harm's way. Really, I think, although I did go paragliding a few years ago.

Sian Lockwood  35:21  

That's different, if you want to do it.

Gill Phillips  35:24  

And that felt very, very safe because I went with George. He was absolutely dishy, and we jumped off the top of the mountain in Queens town. And I felt incredibly safe because this guy knew what he was doing, and he was switching his camera this way and that way. And he was saying, Oh, you seem relaxed, Gill. And I was because it was fun, but it was a very measured risk, because I didn't actually feel that that was that was risky. I mean, obviously it could be catastrophic, but it's unlikely with someone who does that all the time. And whereas I don't think I'd skydive, no, and my husband's a sort of mountain goat over rocks, and I'm just so, so timid. So I think we've all got our different challenges and levels of you know, what you feel competent or safe with?

Sian Lockwood  36:15  

Really? Yeah, yes, we do.

Gill Phillips  36:19  

Okay, well, this podcast. Thank you so much, Sean for talking to me, and I, I think it really builds on the episodes, obviously, that I've already recorded with with Angela Catley, which is still a very popular episode, and talking about WIGO -when I get old - and her obviously different thoughts on that and complimentary thoughts on that, and also, particularly the episodes I've recorded with my friend Dorothy Hall, yes, and then subsequently with Dorothy and her older friend Dorsey, specifically about aging and being in your 80s. So my podcast, as you probably get gathered, jumps around between all sorts of different topics. But I just think talking to interesting people like yourself, you know, with things to say about interesting topics, people are interested. So what final messages do you think we should leave? Sian, any lemon light bulb moments for people to

Sian Lockwood  37:16  

think about? I don't, I'm not great on light bulb moment. I think my my message to myself is absolutely stuffing the life that that these left to me with as many wonderful experiences I can in a measured way, and taking hand to the fact that I get tired. So it's something about not it's it's trading off the whole time, I think, for me, and that's fine, and I've had to lend Steve up, and that's what you've been talking about. Yeah, I don't know if it's a great final message. No, I

Gill Phillips  37:54  

think it is. I think it is. And I think when I become a 70 tomorrow, that's what I'll be listening to,

Sian Lockwood  38:01  

excellent and happy birthday.

Gill Phillips  38:04  

Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you for joining me on the podcast, Sian, and good luck with everything you're doing.

Sian Lockwood  38:11  

Thank you. It's been a pleasure Gill.

Gill Phillips  38:15  

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