For the Love of Judaism
Rabbi Michael Pont, Senior Rabbi at Marlboro Jewish Center, shares his message of love, inspiration and Torah.
For the Love of Judaism
Sci-fi and Judaism
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This week Rabbi Pont is joined by Rabbis Lindsey Healey-Pollack and Andrew Pepperstone, hosts of the podcast Sacred Realms. Sacred Realms discusses the intersection between Judaism and a wide range of sci-fi and fantasy books, movies, and television shows. Each episode, Rabbi Lindsey and Rabbi Andrew discuss what they have been watching or reading recently, do a deep dive into a main topic, bring out from "the Geniza," something from the not-that-distant past, and more.
Whether Sci-Fi is your thing or not, you are sure to enjoy this conversation about the many overlaps between a popular genre and Judaism.
Shalom, I am Rabbi Michael Pont, and this is for the love of Judaism, and I am so excited today because today uh we have two rabbis, Rabbi Lindsay Healy Pollack and Rabbi Andrew Pepperstone. They are the co-hosts of the podcast called Sacred Realms. They discuss the intersection between Judaism and a wide range of sci-fi and fantasy books, movies, and television shows. So, Lindsay and Andrew, it is great to have you on. How are you both today?
SPEAKER_00Doing really well. Thanks for having us here.
SPEAKER_01I'm good. Just uh, you know, winding down the week and getting ready for Shabbat in the weekend, but happy to make time.
SPEAKER_02Amain. Sounds good. Now, before we get into talking about, you know, Judaism and sci-fi and fantasy, let's just tell us about yourselves. Like, you know, Lindsay, maybe you can start. Tell us about your journey to the rabbinate, your background, anything you want to share.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So um in Andrew and my first episode, we go a bit into more detail about this. Um, my background is a little bit um unusual or less common for a rabbi. Um, I was actually not raised Jewish. I converted to Judaism in my early 20s. And I part of what drew me so deeply was just how much more there always is to learn. And that that passion and desire to keep learning more first m motivated me in my my learning and ultimately led to my decision to be become Jewish, become a member of Jewish people. But I still had that desire to continue learning more and exploring and want to be able to bring the beauty and the depth and just the openness to questions and exploration that I find in Judaism and help make that accessible to other people. So that ultimately um led me to enter the rabinet.
SPEAKER_02Uh that that's wonderful. That sounds great. Lindsay, where are you from originally? Where'd you grow up?
SPEAKER_00Um, I grew up primarily in the Houston area, Houston, Texas.
SPEAKER_02Okay. All right. Well, and now I know you're in Inglewood, New Jersey. So, you know, go Texas. Glad you're here in the Garden State.
SPEAKER_01Thanks. Sure. Uh Andrew, how about you? Uh, I grew up in a home that was predominantly secular, but belonged to reformed congregations. Always enjoyed the learning, um, as Lindsay did, especially Hebrew. And around Bar Mitzvah age, when we were living in Los Angeles, got involved in the Bureau of Jewish Education's like classes and retreats, and came home after a couple of years from one retreat and announced I was going to become a rabbi. And I think it was because of the community that I finally saw on a large scale of peers who were, you know, sharing meals together, learning together, singing, praying together, dancing together. That was, I'd never seen that before at that scale. And then kind of forgot about it for a few years. I'm a junior living in Israel uh as a on the one-year program at Hebrew University. I kind of do a deep dive in all the Jewish denominations, kind of come back um part of the conservative movement. And then before I apply to even one grad school program, I just toss all of the applications in the trash and apply to the U Change ATS for a biblical school. So I think it was really about wanting to build communities, was really what drove me the most.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, sounds good. Um, and where did where did you grow up? Like, where are you from?
SPEAKER_01Um I have roots in the Midwest, and I grew up in Los Angeles. Oh, right. Okay. Got it. Got it.
SPEAKER_02Okay. All right. Um, now, Andrew and Lindsay, how did the two of you discover each other and you that you both have this passion for you know sci-fi and fantasy? Like, you know, tell us about the origins of the podcast. How did you how'd you meet each other?
SPEAKER_01I went to the rabbinical assembly in St. Louis. Was it last year?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was last fall.
SPEAKER_01And and I went with a goal of finding people to do this with. And I was there were a few people who were interested. And Lindsay was the one who actually had the wherewithal and determination to actually meet and you know get it going. The other two are not part of it, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_02All right, we won't even talk about them.
SPEAKER_01No. Well, maybe they'll be guests one day.
SPEAKER_00That's interesting. I didn't realize that you had this specific goal going in. Um, because the way that I I kind of remember this conversation starting was one of the excursions that were planned at this at the Rabbinical Assembly convention, um, was to go to the Anheuser-Busch brewery. Um, and I don't know if you remember this, Andrew.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, I remember the brewery.
SPEAKER_00Okay, well, okay, so it was it was on the way back from the brewery after everyone has had the samples. On the way to the brewery, you know, people were having conversations. It was nice and everything. On the way back, you know, everyone was a little bit more animated. And I remember being in a conversation with Andrew and a couple of other people were talking about, right, all of our different pop cultural interests. And maybe Andrew, you already had this idea in your mind, and um, it sort of kind of continued from there. Um, but we we did have another conversation with a couple of other people that were potentially interested um in doing something with with interesting conversations that we were having together as rabbis, um and and putting together um kind of an ongoing project around that. So can rabbinical assembly convention, um all kinds of things can can come about from that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. There, and there could be, you know, if you both ever want to get some corporate sponsorship, I'm seeing Anheuser Busch or InBev or whatever they're called now, you know, bring it on.
SPEAKER_01Interesting.
SPEAKER_02Interesting. All right, we'll just leave it at that. Um, now I I also am a huge fan of sci-fi and fantasy. So I was really excited to discover Sacred Realms. Let me ask you both, who are some of your favorite authors of the genre and why? What about do you have favorite films? Tell us a little bit about your passion for sci-fi and fantasy.
SPEAKER_01I'll go first. My favorite author is Terry Pratchett, and I discovered him in college through a friend, and he is clever and insightful and witty, and he can poke fun at people without being cruel. And he has in many of his novels this disc word this disc world, which is the the planet that is a huge disc on the back of four elephants on the back of a huge turtle, and it's a highly magical world, and he has all of his stories take many take place in this planet. Um, he has other amazing books as well. Um, Nation, the Bromiliad trilogy. He wrote Good Omens with Neil Gaiman, which just has season two on Amazon Prime, and he wrote The Long Earth with Steven Baxter. Um, but I grew up in a very movie household. Um, Star Wars was my first religion. Um, I watched Tron over a hundred times, um, which has very religious themes. Star Trek to a lesser extent, and you know, pretty much whatever I could get my hands on in the 80s. Um, lately it's been whatever is on the various streaming services. Um, and there's a lot, there's a lot going on. But I would say Star Wars is really like the foundation for me of all sci-fi and fantasy um engagement. Yeah. First religion for sure. Got it, got it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, so as I was trying to think through who were my favorites, it was really hard to choose and also it brings up questions that I think Andrew, you and I uh uh often engage with around genres and what the boundaries are of what what counts as sci-fi fantasy. Um, but some of my favorite authors, I I really love Neil Gaiman, and I um also particularly love graphic novels, comics. So I Sandman is one of my favorites. Um, and I I love a lot. I haven't read all of his books, but I also really enjoy the work that he writes or is produced for children and young adults. Um, Philip Pullman, his dark materials, that series um was very influential for me. It's really fascinating to me because Philip Pullman is known as being an atheist, but I actually have found that his characterization of um and understanding of religion and exploration of religious themes has always been really influential for me and kind of how I perceive and think about God and spirituality. Um, Margaret Atwood, who is best known for The Handmaid's Tale, but she actually has a trilogy called the Matt Adam Trilogy that's she calls speculative fiction, but is really very much in the in the science fiction realm, um talks about kind of a near future um climate catastrophe, runaway, kind of corporate dominance of much of society and genetic engineering and kind of how all of that goes awry. Um Orson Scott Card was always very um influential on me. I know, you know, people have take issue with some of his viewpoints, but um the Enders Game series was was also very influential for me. Of course, also love George R. Martin, even if he's never gonna finish his book series. And some of my favorite films also grew up watching Star Wars and all the Disney animated movies. Andrew and I talk about this um some in our podcast as well. Uh a couple of my other favorite movies are Pan's Labyrinth, which is was directed by Guillermo Del Toro. It's one of my absolute favorite movies. And then in the more sci-fi realm, Gattaca is one of my favorites. Um, and uh Terminator 2 was always a big, a big favorite in in my household.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was second my love my love of Orson Scott Card. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Card is also for me very influential author. We disagree on so many things, but we agree he's an amazing author.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Uh, since you brought up Orson Scott Card, um, I'm also a big fan. And yes, his his views are, you know, I don't agree with, but yes, his writing is is fabulous. Um, not the Ender series, I mean, everything in there, you know, Speaker for the Dead, which Lindsay, I know you talked about in the first episode of the podcast, which was just a fantastic book. Um, so interesting for us as rabbis to think about how we memorialize people, but the whole storyline there was really fascinating. Um, and you know, I'm sure that both of you know this, but Orson Scott Card um also writes biblical fiction. Um, he's written, he wrote Stone Tables, which is about Moses. He wrote a whole series on each of the matriarchs. Um and I personally was very honored. I'm just gonna give myself a little shout out, uh, because I lived for five years in Greensboro, North Carolina, which is where Orson Scott Card lives. This was, I was there from '99 to 2004. And that's when he was writing his series about the matriarchs. Um, and the book, his book on Rebecca was about to come out. So the Greensboro News and Record, the local paper, sent me a copy of his book and they asked me if I would write a review for the paper. So I did, and I compared it to Midrash because he was really like helping to fill in the gaps and sort of putting his own spin, but staying loyal to the basic narrative. And I was look, I was young, and I was hoping maybe I would get to have a sit-down with him. He's a total recluse, so he doesn't really do that. But I did hear from his staff that they said, and they quoted him, they said, Yeah, he really gets it. So that was a really proud moment in my life, sort of a little separated, a couple degrees separated from Orson Scott Card.
SPEAKER_01Um, I think about Stone Tables on a weekly basis. It is an amazing book. Yes, it is. It is my favorite take on why Moses stutters, yes, which is that he's co-switching between Hebrew and Egyptian. And um, I do a lot of bibliodrama in the sanctuary on Shabbat mornings, and I wanted to do a bibliodrama about Jacob and Aesov. And I actually, based on the book Rebecca, I made uh a Bekorah, I made a trunk of old scrolls um as like a focal point, um, put on the on the table. Um, and that was the thing we were debating about the value of in the room. So oh wait, I think yeah, he's yeah, that's a great trilogy too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've read some of his work on the matriarchs, but haven't read Stone Tables, so I should check that out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, put just put it on your list, Lindsay. That's that makes sense. Um, okay, so you started this podcast, Sacred Realms, um, not too long ago. I've listened to uh a number of the episodes. I think they're wonderful. I enjoy listening to the two of you converse and debate about uh issues of sci-fi and Judaism. Um, just quickly, give us a kind of a thumbnail sketch. What are the episodes like? What should we expect when we tune in to an episode?
SPEAKER_01So the current format, um, and it's evolved a little bit, um, is based on a podcast called uh So Very Wrong About Games. It's a board game podcast I listen to. Um it's sort of loosely based on some of their structure. So we begin with, you know, the introduction, um, the question of the month, which we realize was called the question of the week erroneously for several months. And the question is usually based on something tied to the theme of that month's episode. And then we talk about uh what we've been watching and reading lately. And we've added a couple of times like a news segment, which we have only done twice, once before and once in the current episode, you know, Jewish sci-fi fantasy news, of which there is not that much, but they just cast the first Jewish actor to play Superman in an upcoming film, and that is a very Jewishly rooted and coded Jewish character in many ways. And also we we're talking about the recent uh hu-ha about Bradley Cooper playing Leonard Bernstein with a prosthetic nose, yes, um, which may or may not be a big deal based on who you read, as just you know, an issue of note about the portrayal of Jews and you know media in general. Um, then we get to the main topic. We've been centering it around a theme that emerges from a recent holiday. So for Tubishvat, where we began, we did trees. For Purim, Lindsay had the idea of doing empires, and we kind of weave back and forth between the sci-fi material, the biblical and rabbinic material, our thoughts and riffs off of those things. And it can get pretty far afield, which is great. Um, and then we end with something, you know, from the Geniza, something old and dusty that we should, you know, bring out, dust off, give some love to, either something that's been on our minds or that's related to the theme that just you know isn't on people's current, you know, playlists or whatnot. Um, and that's that's our bit in our basic format up to up so far.
SPEAKER_02That's great. Um, so let me ask you both this question. You know, we rabbis, we like to remind people that Jewish tradition offers guidance for our lives today and that it's not it's not obsolete. We describe the Torah as Mayim Chaim, flowing waters. You know, if it's not speaking to us now in our current time, then almost what's the point? So that's something that I think is important to us as Jewish leaders. Uh I recently listened to your episode five, during which you explore the limits of technology and artificial intelligence or AI. Andrew, you shared a rabbinic debate from the late 19th century about machine-made matza. Tell us about that and how it relates to the 21st century debate about AI.
SPEAKER_01So there was an article I came across in Tablet Magazine, and I could not find it today. Um, and this, the author of the article, made the connection and referenced some sources where the idea of a machine that would make matzah was causing a lot of hand-wringing in the 1860s and 1890s in Europe and in the US. And I I came across a number of those sources compiled together on Safaria. So people had done a lot of the connective work as well. Um, and it's a good analogy. You know, the big question is like, where is the line between what machines can do and what humans must never let them do? And it's a moving target. You know, is it allowed or appropriate to have a machine do what had been done by hand for centuries, namely make matzah? Or in the case of AI, you know, write a script or produce art? Um, will the results be good? Will they be comparable to human work? Will it be better than? You know, will the matzah be kosher for Passover or not? Will people lose their jobs with this new technology? You know, people bake matza um to make money, especially for Passover in some communities, and they rely on the income for their livelihood. Will this put them out of work? You know, what would be lost if we delegated the baking of matzo to a machine? The commandment is to eat matzah, but in the Torah's narrative, we also make the matzah both before we leave and on the run from Egypt. Um, is not the physical making of the matzah part of the experience of being Jewish? Um, as it which it was before they were machine-made matzas. Even though not everybody did it, it was a skilled labor that certain people did. Not everybody did it at home, but in some places they actually did. Um with AI, it's a lot of the same questions. Will it produce what will it produce? Will people lose jobs? Um, what do we lose of our humanity if we let AI do the creative things the humans have done? Um, will we have given over to an automaton something that makes us human or enhances our humanity? So those are some of the interesting points of connection that I think apply to any technology. Um, some of the rabbis initially who hadn't even seen the machine, they're very concerned. It'll be hot, it'll make the flour ferment faster, they'll be impossible to clean, it will never work. And some are worried about the employment issue, people will be out of jobs. And then some people say, well, you know, we actually have very few people who actually can make matza anymore, and they're just overloaded. We can't keep up with the demand. We actually might need a machine. And then someone in someone actually buys one in the month before Passover and they do test runs. They go, Yeah, it's fine. Like, it's okay. You know, it's very easy to clean, they produce kosher matzah. It's, you know, those fears will not be, you know, realized. But it does delegate to a machine what people had done. And, you know, what are the things in Judaism that we will never let machines do? Will we ever have automated ritual slaughter? Will we have automated scribes? But these are like the questions that come up in both with AI and Maza baking machines. So I'm grateful for the connection that somebody pointed out.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I'm also grateful for the connection because, you know, it we struggle with these kinds of questions, you know, like artificial intelligence and machines and, you know, how much should machines do for us. But I loved that you brought that issue from the article that you read in Tablet Magazine, uh, because it shows that, you know what, the issue has come up before in a different context, but it's like you said, it's a lot of the same concerns. And it just gives us a nice, um, a fascinating analogy that can really help us today when we're thinking about uh technology in general.
SPEAKER_01So I'll tie it to a sci-fi book. Uh, the author of The Martian, whose name eludes me, he wrote a book called Seven Eaves. Andy Ware. Andy Ware's net book after the Martian was called Seven Eaves. It is in three parts, and I will not spoil anything. But at one point in the distant future, humanity is living on basically on a huge ring constructed around the earth. Um, and they're using what they call Amistic principles to evaluate technology. You know, basically, based on the Amish, you know, they had a they had a very, very robust technological evaluation. How will this technology impact society, people's connections to each other, them individually? And they were overtly and deliberately, as like humanity in general was evaluating technology. And you know what? We don't need smartphones anymore. We're gonna make them dumb again. And they got rid of smartphones because they were not helping, they were only hurting. So, you know, that's an interesting sci-fi uh, you know, hueing to like what could actually happen in the future. But, you know, drawing from Amish culture, put into sci-fi setting the same kind of evaluative process. So I thought it's an interesting place where it kind of comes up as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, taking kind of a step backward, if you will, um, because it was impacting like quality of life. All right, Andrew. So you're the one, you were like kind of this was your brainchild. You went to the rabbinical assembly convention and you wanted to find a partner um to, you know, to dish about sci-fi and fantasy. Um you wanna just elaborate, tell us a little more about your thoughts. About the connections between Judaism and sci fi?
SPEAKER_01So for me, the series, all the serious science fiction, all the serious fantasy literature and you know, films, you know, books, TV shows, they're all grappling with the same big questions that religions in particular grapple with, and Judaism in particular. Religion in general and Judaism in particular grapple with, you know, where do we come from? Where are we going? And what do we do with the time that we have? You know, what does the ideal society look like? What is the nature of evil and how do we respond to it? Um, or you know, what are different ways of thinking about spirituality or humanity and how those two things relate? And we're all dealing with the same big questions. Um, and so for a lot of people, religion has been a big turnoff. It's either seen as too judgmental or too rigid, too this, too that. And I thought, well, since Star Wars was like, was my first religion in many ways, um, it had a very clear theology and a very clear, you know, master narrative that, you know, helped you think about good and evil, what's my role in all this? Um, you know, so it's so why not use sci-fi and fantasy as an entry point for people who are who love those things, but who were curious about religion and perhaps Judaism in particular, to see that Judaism also takes these same questions seriously, and to see that the the two you know fields intersect and um maybe they'll find you know their way into Jewish life through those in ways that might even be surprising. So that was sort of my way to kind of create an entry point.
SPEAKER_02That's terrific. Uh Lindsay, I wanted to ask you um in that episode five when we were talking about, when you were talking about um machines and their role in our lives, you raised the importance of intention, or in Hebrew cavana, as a factor to consider when thinking about machines, AI, and Jewish values. Can you just elaborate on that? Because it was really a fascinating um discussion in that in your episode.
SPEAKER_00Yes, of course. Um, so as we were talking about AI and technology in general and trying to think about what are what are the ways in which the things that human beings do, um whether in a Jewish context or otherwise, are how what is it that that human beings add to an activity that perhaps AI or other technology does not? And the Jewish concept that came to mind immediately was kabana, this idea of intention. Um people who might be listening might have have come across or heard this term before, and we often talk about it in the context of prayer, of having intention awareness around what we're doing in the in prayer. But it also is a concept that we talk about with respect to a lot of different mitzvot, a lot of um observances in in Jewish life. And we include brachot, blessings, before performing a lot of mitzvot as a way of sort of channeling our intention, right? Indicating like I'm actually doing this for the purpose of fulfilling this mitzvah. Um, and that's something that at least at this point, AI or other tech doesn't do, right? We might be able to program a machine to make matza or machines or various other kinds of technology do things on our behalf. But up until this point, um, Judaism has been pretty insistent on the idea that there are certain things, particularly ritual objects or mitzvot rituals that we perform, need to be done by human beings with ideally with some kind of awareness of what it is that you're doing and why. And one of the things that we talked about in the episode was so frutes, the the writing of um Taurus scrolls and other sacred writing, mezuzot, tfilin. Um all of those are things that not only have to be done with very particular, they have to be written on cloth, on parchment, with particular kind of ink used in in a particular kind of way by a scribe who's trained to do it. And there needs to be this kind of intention and awareness around what you're doing. Um, an example that always comes to mind for me around this is t seat, the making of t seat. You can't, not only do you have to have intention around tying the tzit seat themselves if you're putting these fringes on a tallit or a tallit katan that you're going to wear, even the fibers themselves or the threads that you're going to use actually need to be made with for the purpose of the mitzvah tzitsi. So how that works out today um in the production of a lot of these things, right? We have to kind of figure that out. Even if we do use technology to assist in some of in the production of some of these things, the the role of having a human being, a Jewish person, in the case of many of these kinds of ritual materials or production, that we need to have some kind of presence and awareness that we're bringing to this activity. Um otherwise it kind of doesn't make the cut. Um it might be a nice cracker that you eat, it might be some fringes that you know have on your on your garment, but there does seem to be this additional element, which is the intention and awareness of what it's for and why we're doing it that seems to be really, really important. And this is a little bit different from the the question around Kavana specifically, but that we we go into is uh this idea around, you know, what does it do for us experientially to be able to, you know, be engaged in this hands-on way with our Jewish practices? And that this idea of Kavana, um, at least while we may be separated from certain activities that maybe our ancestors did, more commonly like baking matzah, um, the necessity of human involvement seems to be a really important factor um in both the creation of ritual items and also just this idea of connecting with Jewishly and performing mitzvot. Um, I don't, it doesn't seem to me that it would be the same. Let's say if you um have a smart home that's able to turn on the lights for you before Shabbat, um, that's different than me taking the time to light candles and say the blessing to welcome in Shabbat on Friday evening. Right. Um the end result may be similar. We have light in the home, but um my connection with it is enhanced by my participation in this kind of active way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. And so fascinating, like to think about like with the Torah scroll, it would be so much easier to just, you know, let Microsoft take over and just we could produce as many Taurus as we want, um, or just put it on a jumbotron. I mean, don't bother with the scroll at all. It would be so much easier. But then you we would be totally disconnected from the concept of a so fair a scribe, like, you know, taking care to do everything with love and attention, kavanah, as we said in Hebrew, and to do it with accuracy and it connects us, it roots us in our in our past and our tradition. Um, you know, that connection would be severed. Um, if if we didn't, it would be weakened, not completely lost, but it would be weakened. And yes, uh Lindsay, it's such a great point that in order for us to live authentic Jewish lives, um, at least with certain activities, we need to be engaged. Um, we can't just, you know, farm it out uh to a third party or something. So why don't I just do this? Um, Andrew or Lindsay, do you have any final comments um before we before we wrap this up? Up to you. You don't have to, but just putting it out there.
SPEAKER_00I would love to add some comments. I don't know how much the background noise is is going on. Um but right back to a little bit of of what Andrew, you were talking about with why Judaism and sci-fi fantasy seem to why that was an interesting topic for you and for us. Um I think it you know it goes in multiple directions too, right? Maybe the sci-fi and fantasy is an entry point for people who are familiar with these kind of forms of storytelling that um have really, I would say, exploded in the number number of new TV series and movies that are coming out that are have become very mainstream. But I I think all of it really is is rooted in trying to explore um the big questions that that concern us as human beings. And um I think that I've always found there's quite a bit of crossover in sci-fi and fantasy genres with questions about religion and spirituality. And I just find this intro the conversation between the two of them to be so interesting and and enriching. Um, as I had mentioned before, some of the the books and movies that that I engaged with as a younger person um continued to shape my understanding of spirituality, of God, of, of reality. Um, and I I just love bringing these things in conversation with each other and also to to bring the the Jewish context of Torah in our traditions and say, oh, actually, um we have very similar ideas that have been explored and discussed in in our tradition.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, agreed. Well, um go ahead, Andrew.
SPEAKER_01Oh, like in particular, the Mandalorian season three, which was its most Jewish season thus far. Um, I mean, John Frevreau is Jewish and definitely brought a lot of his Jewish background into it. And you, you know, you've got a guy with a head covering looking for a kosher mikvah for the first part of the season. Like that, it was like, yeah, that feels kind of Jewish. And then you've got, you know, people living in exile with their homeworld being decimated. I'm like, yeah, that feels also pretty uh resonant. And there was one episode in particular called The Spies. And everyone thought initially that it was gonna be about the traitor in the midst. You know, who's gonna betray Mandalorian and book book? Who's gonna who's gonna betray Bo Katan and the Mandalorian? Who's gonna betray them? And then nobody betrayed them. There was no betrayal. Everyone's like, why do they call this episode the spies? And then Jewish people were like, oh, it's because of the story of the scouts in the book of Numbers. There were 12 Mandalorians who go to scout out their home world. Like, oh, it just people didn't understand, you know, the spy story from Book of Numbers. Um, so it was like, you know, Jews kind of brought to that, I'd understand, like, oh, that's why it's going on um this way. And you know, a very Jewish season in general. There's one moment where, you know, Bo Katan, who was like the head of Mandalorian's daughter, like she remembers like immersing in the living waters and the minds of Mandalore, and she describes it kind of like how a jaded rabbi's kid would describe their Barabat mitzvah. They go, yeah, and did the thing, got the presents. It was very nice. Like it was, it felt very familiar. Uh yeah. So that was yeah, just you know, right? Judaism brought a lot to expound upon what's going on in that season, and and in many other things as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Mandalorian is a great series. Um, there's uh we could go on for hours, um, but let's, you know what, let's stop there. Leave us, leave us and our listeners hopefully, you know, wanting more. Rabbi Andrew Pepperstone, Rabbi Lindsay Healy Pollock. Thank you so much for being on the program today. Great conversation about Judaism and sci-fi. I hope that we can reconnect the future. Um, but thanks so much for this episode today. I really appreciate it. It was great. Thanks for having us. Well, again, that was Rabbi Andrew Pepperstone and Rabbi Lindsay Healy Pollock, the co-hosts of the podcast Sacred Realms. Works of sci-fi and fantasy often address issues of spirituality. And to me, that makes perfect sense given that these books and films and shows uh explore notions that test human rationality. Take the scene in the original Star Wars film from 1977, in which Luke Skywalker is trying to use the force in his lightsaber training. And solo played masterfully by Harrison Ford doesn't believe in the force. He calls it hokey religion. When Luke presses solo on this, he replies, kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe that there's one all-powerful force that controls everything. There's no mystical energy that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense. Obi-Wan Kenobi, the Jedi who is training Luke, puts a helmet on his pupil so that he cannot see. Luke at first protests, yet he has some success on relying on instinct, which solo dismisses as luck. Now, George Lucas, who created Star Wars, said the following: I put the force into the movies in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people. More a belief in God than a belief in any particular religious system. It seems to me that in this one scene, the characters spell out the challenge of faith in a power that is unseen. And to me, that's very much like God. This scene appears in Star Wars, perhaps the most iconic sci-fi film ever. Well, that wraps up this episode. Uh, everyone, thank you so much for listening. Whether or not you're a fan of sci-fi and fantasy, I hope you enjoyed the conversation about the nexus between that genre, those genres, and Judaism. Everybody have a great day and peace out.