The Chinese Automotive, Software-defined Vehicle Market

We’re once again diving into the world of software-defined vehicles (SDVs). In this episode we are joined by Florian Rohde, Managing Partner of iProcess, LLC. From founding Tesla’s system validation team to building an integration and validation team at NIO, he’s pretty much seen it all when it comes to SDVs. Florian joins ETAS’s Siamak Moshiri in a targeted discussion about the Chinese auto market, specifically SDVs. 

Siamak has Florian share insights on consumer influence and demand for SDVs in China compared to Europe and the U.S., China’s trajectory in developing the SDV, as well as how the Chinese auto market approaches vehicle architecture, operations and process. It’s a quick discussion that is bursting with interesting information.

To learn more about Florian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/florian-rohde-iprocess/ 

Thanks for listening!

• Email us at: contact.us@etas.com
• Learn more about ETAS on our website 
• Follow us on LinkedIn: @ETAS

Transcript

00:00:02 Voiceover

Welcome to the Empowering Tomorrow's Automotive Software Podcast, brought to you by ETAS, a single source of cutting-edge software and hardware solutions that make automotive embedded systems safe, smart, secure, and sustainable.

00:00:15 Voiceover

Each episode, we'll be joined by ETAS and industry experts to discuss how electrification, automation, and connectivity are impacting the automotive industry.

00:00:25 Voiceover

Now, sit back and enjoy the discussion.

00:00:31 Siamak Moshiri

Hey folks, my name is Siamak Moshiri.

00:00:35 Siamak Moshiri

I'm at ETAS Sales and Business Development, and welcome to another episode of ETAS Podcast.

00:00:40 Siamak Moshiri

I've got a really great guest with me today, Florian Rohde.

00:00:44 Siamak Moshiri

Florian is someone who I respected for quite a while, and he's someone who not only has been around the block for quite some time in the automotive industry,

00:00:55 Siamak Moshiri

but has helped actually build a few of those blocks along the way.

00:01:01 Siamak Moshiri

So he's been in the automotive industry for almost 20 years.

00:01:04 Siamak Moshiri

He started at Continental for about eight years and then joined Tesla in 2012.

00:01:11 Siamak Moshiri

And he was responsible for software integration and validation of the whole software level platform and hardware-in-the-loop testing.

00:01:21 Siamak Moshiri

During his tenure and six years at Tesla, he's been one of the key enablers of software development and basically enablers of the software-defined vehicle release capabilities and software development.

00:01:34 Siamak Moshiri

Then he took his experiences to NIO, where he was involved and he was one of the key enablers of software integration in the ADAS and infotainment systems.

00:01:46 Siamak Moshiri

Florian then joined the consulting world,

00:01:48 Siamak Moshiri

at iProcess Consulting, where he advises and consults clients and customers on software-defined vehicle technologies, enablers, platforms, processes, and architectures.

00:02:01 Siamak Moshiri

So Florian, welcome to this talk.

00:02:04 Florian Rohde

Thank you for having me.

00:02:05 Florian Rohde

Hi, good morning.

00:02:08 Siamak Moshiri

I understand you've been in China recently.

00:02:11 Siamak Moshiri

You posted a few LinkedIn posts from your visit.

00:02:15 Siamak Moshiri

To be honest, for quite some time, I was wanting to speak to someone who is not only expert and understands a software-defined vehicle, but has on-the-ground experiences from the automotive vehicle, automotive China, automotive world scene, basically.

00:02:31 Siamak Moshiri

And I understand this is your second visit, is that right?

00:02:35 Florian Rohde

Yeah, I've been in Shanghai about seven, eight years ago as a member of NIO, where I was

00:02:41 Florian Rohde

strictly focused on my role at NIO, and I was at the headquarters over there.

00:02:45 Florian Rohde

Actually, I had a chance to meet the CEO, William Li, in a one-to-one meeting over there as well.

00:02:50 Florian Rohde

And now was my second trip, but it is, I mean, seven years in China is like decades apart, right?

00:02:59 Florian Rohde

So there's a lot of things different.

00:03:02 Florian Rohde

So yeah, it was very interesting, the observations.

00:03:06 Florian Rohde

And I'm talking mainly about really my observations in the streets and talking to people, obviously not talking about details, what companies are doing internally, but it's mostly like, what impressions do you get when you walk on the streets in China?

00:03:21 Florian Rohde

It's very interesting.

00:03:23 Siamak Moshiri

Exactly.

00:03:23 Siamak Moshiri

So that was actually my first question between your first visit and second visit, quite given this speed of change, not only in China, but also everywhere else regarding the self-defined vehicle.

00:03:33 Siamak Moshiri

What is

00:03:34 Siamak Moshiri

What did you see?

00:03:35 Siamak Moshiri

What was your observation between these two visits?

00:03:38 Florian Rohde

Yeah, so basically when you walk through the streets, there's no old cars.

00:03:42 Florian Rohde

I mean, I understand that there's also different reasons for that, but they are renewing their whole public fleet a lot.

00:03:49 Florian Rohde

So you see a lot of brand new vehicles, but you also see a lot of different brands.

00:03:56 Florian Rohde

This is one thing very fascinating to me.

00:03:59 Florian Rohde

There were so many different car makers out there.

00:04:02 Florian Rohde

And I asked my Chinese colleagues, it's like, do you know how many car makers are there right now in China?

00:04:07 Florian Rohde

And everybody's like, no, I don't know, 100, 50, I don't know.

00:04:11 Florian Rohde

It's a lot of them.

00:04:12 Florian Rohde

And it feels like they're growing more.

00:04:15 Florian Rohde

It feels a little bit, I mean, I wasn't here at that time, but in 1920s in America, you know, when you talk to the guys over at the Ford Museum, they tell you those stories.

00:04:23 Florian Rohde

There was also 80 or 100 different car brands in America back in the day.

00:04:28 Florian Rohde

And they started to, they joined forces, they got bought out, some of them, didn't make it, and so on.

00:04:36 Florian Rohde

And I have the feeling this is a very similar situation what we see over there in China.

00:04:39 Florian Rohde

It's just a lot of car companies popping out.

00:04:43 Florian Rohde

The thing is, their cars, they

00:04:47 Florian Rohde

look really good and they feel really quality wise also really good.

00:04:51 Florian Rohde

So it's a little different than what we've seen in the past in other parts of the world where the car markets are coming up and local brands are emerging, but you have the luxurious import brands from the Western markets.

00:05:06 Florian Rohde

That doesn't feel like that over there.

00:05:07 Siamak Moshiri

Yeah, obviously this is interesting because that takes me to the next question.

00:05:12 Siamak Moshiri

I always remember the quote I heard, I think it was in a survey or something that

00:05:16 Siamak Moshiri

In 2024, there was a survey done in Europe and I think in Germany, asked the German consumers, what is the probability or what is the likelihood that your second car be a Chinese vehicle, given that now China is present in European market?

00:05:33 Siamak Moshiri

And 53%, if I'm not mistaken, 53%, 54% of the respondents

00:05:38 Siamak Moshiri

respondents say, yes, Chinese vehicle could be our next vehicle.

00:05:42 Siamak Moshiri

So from that perspective, what do you think in terms of brand, if you can remember what brands of vehicles of China in terms of quality?

00:05:52 Siamak Moshiri

could be competitive in non-Chinese markets.

00:05:56 Florian Rohde

So first, talking about the people's opinion about that, right?

00:06:01 Florian Rohde

We've seen that before, but it took much longer.

00:06:03 Florian Rohde

You've seen that in Germany, for example.

00:06:05 Florian Rohde

So I grew up in Germany, and it was Skoda back in the day, which also was from a rather cheap vehicle to something that was a good decision to buy.

00:06:12 Florian Rohde

And that's literally what people said.

00:06:14 Florian Rohde

When your neighbor bought a Skoda, it's like, oh yeah, that's a good car, good investment.

00:06:18 Florian Rohde

I mean, it's not a fancy car, but it's a good investment.

00:06:21 Florian Rohde

We've seen the same thing now coming with Chinese vehicles as well, but in a much shorter time frame.

00:06:27 Florian Rohde

So the Skoda example was probably like 20, 30 years, and then a massive support of Volkswagen.

00:06:32 Florian Rohde

And I know a few people over in Europe who drive Chinese cars, and they're very, very happy with that, mostly about the cost for what they get, right?

00:06:42 Florian Rohde

So they buy a car for a reasonable price, and they get a car that does the job well.

00:06:47 Florian Rohde

And that's, I think, one of the biggest

00:06:50 Florian Rohde

topics about those vehicles coming over into Europe is you get a product that does the job well, but it is actually much more reasonable in price.

00:06:59 Florian Rohde

Regarding the brands, so I personally found Zeekr as a very interesting brand, but as I said, there's a lot of brands out there.

00:07:08 Florian Rohde

I could not, I can't tell you, I don't speak Chinese, so I can't originally read how the brand is called, right?

00:07:14 Florian Rohde

And

00:07:14 Florian Rohde

I asked and they told me, okay, this isn't this brand, but we haven't seen them yet.

00:07:20 Florian Rohde

So there's a lot that we haven't really experienced or seen over there.

00:07:25 Florian Rohde

So in summary, all of these vehicles look very modern and very competitive.

00:07:34 Florian Rohde

And that's not only

00:07:36 Florian Rohde

the quick glance over, also from the look and feel, from the touch quality.

00:07:41 Florian Rohde

So they caught up a lot in that.

00:07:43 Florian Rohde

Going back to the earlier examples, when first Japanese cars came over in the 80s and Korean cars in the 2000s, they always entered through a low price point, but also with a rather low expectation on build quality and stuff like that.

00:07:59 Florian Rohde

is not the case over there.

00:08:00 Florian Rohde

So those vehicles, they don't look cheap and they don't feel cheap.

00:08:03 Florian Rohde

And

00:08:04 Florian Rohde

I don't know the actual price tag over there, but obviously compared with an imported vehicle from Germany, it's a much more attractive.

00:08:12 Florian Rohde

Interesting fact is when you walk through the streets, you see all those local or like Chinese-built cars, and you see a few import cars, for example, from Germany.

00:08:23 Florian Rohde

They look outdated.

00:08:25 Florian Rohde

So it's a completely different perception suddenly.

00:08:28 Florian Rohde

So the imported high-priced cars look outdated while the locally built reasonably priced cars actually look more modern.

00:08:37 Florian Rohde

That's just from the outside and like when you look in interior and this kind of things, and we haven't even started talking about the SDV features and the user experience, right?

00:08:49 Florian Rohde

It feels like that the imported cars over there, they are like for transportation.

00:08:54 Florian Rohde

not for user experience.

00:08:56 Siamak Moshiri

Right.

00:08:57 Siamak Moshiri

Yeah, and I think the quality, in terms of quality, the first 10, 15, 20 years that the European and American car manufacturers were quite active in China market, that helped elevate the quality of Chinese vehicles.

00:09:11 Siamak Moshiri

So these features that I see in this German car, I want to have also in Chinese.

00:09:15 Siamak Moshiri

mimicked or kind of rivaled those features in their vehicles.

00:09:20 Siamak Moshiri

Now, my next question is, when we talk about the SDVs, basically SDV is something has to come from the consumer experience, right?

00:09:27 Siamak Moshiri

So if the consumer experience does not demand a SDV experience, you know, there's no points for, because there's a lot of cost into implementing an SDV for manufacturers.

00:09:40 Siamak Moshiri

How do you think Chinese consumers

00:09:43 Siamak Moshiri

We see a lot of hype around, okay, Chinese consumers love different features in their infotainment systems, or they like the experience when they see in the car, they need to have this and that features, whereas those features are not really probably so well defined by other consumers in the non-China market.

00:10:02 Siamak Moshiri

How much do you think this whole evolution, fast evolution of the China SEV architectures influenced by consumers, really?

00:10:13 Florian Rohde

I think this is a very important and great point.

00:10:16 Florian Rohde

It was starting to be more visible for me when I was working over there 2 weeks before I was in Germany, so...

00:10:24 Florian Rohde

I had a very direct comparison, right?

00:10:26 Florian Rohde

The consumers, the Chinese consumers are very like techy and they want the newest gadgets and they are very natural in doing that.

00:10:36 Florian Rohde

So when you see how they're acting with those technologies, you see it's much more common to them and they're used to this and they want to pull in the new options or the new features.

00:10:48 Florian Rohde

When you look, and this is not only Europe, I see the same thing here in the US.

00:10:52 Florian Rohde

Customers are much more conservative in what they are asking for.

00:10:55 Florian Rohde

And in the last few weeks after I've seen those different markets and I see my local market all the time, I started to realize that the progress in the area of SDV is also, let's say,

00:11:08 Florian Rohde

positively influenced in China by the Chinese customer and is actually held back a little bit in the US and in Europe.

00:11:17 Florian Rohde

the most hyped new feature in the American car market was actually a split truck pickup truck lift gate that was featured in a Super Bowl commercial.

00:11:25 Florian Rohde

So while the consumers in China, they want to have like full graphical integration of traffic lights, vehicle to infrastructure interfaces, and they have live updates and stuff like this.

00:11:36 Florian Rohde

The American customer wants to have a new lift gate on his pickup truck.

00:11:40 Florian Rohde

So at that, the industry is actually, force is maybe the wrong word, but very motivated in China also to raise the speed and to produce those new features and approaches.

00:11:54 Florian Rohde

So it's actually interesting what we see is there's a lot of finger pointing within the automotive industry to the OEMs and to the tier ones and they have to get faster and they have to build more SDV and they have to all this.

00:12:05 Florian Rohde

But the consumer actually is not urgently.

00:12:07 Florian Rohde

So it makes it a little bit the question is like, who wants it or needs it?

00:12:14 Florian Rohde

What we see over in China is like it goes hand in hand, right?

00:12:18 Florian Rohde

The industry is producing new features and integrations really fast, and the consumers are pulling them in and they're actually using them, so it actually creates a business case.

00:12:27 Siamak Moshiri

I think it's basically this is the right...

00:12:31 Siamak Moshiri

how do I say, trajectory to be in where the consumers and producers or manufacturers working hand in hand.

00:12:38 Siamak Moshiri

It's like a push-pull situation where you exactly described that if this push-pull is not really in harmony, then we feel, okay, then we're going to have a hard time monetization and all those subscription models that people are struggling with these days in terms of business model.

00:12:57 Siamak Moshiri

That's great.

00:12:57 Siamak Moshiri

So what do you think then China would be in two, three, four years, or maybe by the end of this decade in terms of their trajectory of the software-defined vehicle since given their fast developments and advancements in the last five years?

00:13:12 Florian Rohde

Yeah, a couple of thoughts there.

00:13:13 Florian Rohde

So first of all, I get a lot into this discussion that Chinese cars in Europe or no Chinese cars to the US and stuff like this.

00:13:24 Florian Rohde

China has a huge economy and has a large country that just starts to discover cars for transportation purposes.

00:13:33 Florian Rohde

They are very busy to serve their own needs.

00:13:36 Florian Rohde

Of course, they like to export and to grow, but it's very obvious when you walk over the industry, it's just like there's a lot of automotive industries booming within the country.

00:13:46 Florian Rohde

So that's one observation.

00:13:47 Florian Rohde

Then the next observation is the Takt time of building new product.

00:13:52 Florian Rohde

is significantly reduced compared to what we know from traditional car making.

00:13:57 Florian Rohde

Originally, you had seven to eight years for a new model going to market.

00:14:01 Florian Rohde

This was shrunk down to two to four years already.

00:14:05 Florian Rohde

This time around, they tell me the goal is 14 months to bring a new car to market.

00:14:10 Florian Rohde

14 months.

00:14:11 Florian Rohde

That's slightly over a year.

00:14:14 Florian Rohde

When I was working at NIO, William actually put out the goal, one new car per year.

00:14:19 Florian Rohde

It's 1 new model, right?

00:14:22 Florian Rohde

The way they are doing that, and that's not a secret, every car manufacturer is focusing on this approach for the last 20 years, is platform approach, right?

00:14:31 Florian Rohde

So you run a platform approach, and then you create new models based on your platform.

00:14:36 Florian Rohde

What's new here is the software platform.

00:14:39 Florian Rohde

So when a traditional car maker is talking about a platform and so on, yes, it's a vehicle and you make a station wagon, you make it a convertible, whatever, and you build on that platform, or you make, you know,

00:14:52 Florian Rohde

a different brand of your company is building their own vehicle with a different label and brand on it, but it is the same platform.

00:14:59 Florian Rohde

From software point of view, you have one company platform and you can actually mechanically design vehicles, electrically design their components, and then you go to the company software platform and you pull down the software that is already there.

00:15:16 Florian Rohde

And you, of course, this is simplified, but then you have integration work to be done.

00:15:21 Florian Rohde

and you don't start over from scratch every time.

00:15:23 Florian Rohde

And that's the only way you can reach 14 hours.

00:15:26 Florian Rohde

Sorry, 14 hours is maybe soon, but 14 months for new vehicles to market?

00:15:32 Siamak Moshiri

And that's basically a great segue to the next one that I know that you have a passion and I've seen you spoke in different events.

00:15:42 Siamak Moshiri

about not only the architecture itself, because the architecture itself is engineering, right?

00:15:47 Siamak Moshiri

So engineering of the software, hardware, software decoupling, but also there's more to it.

00:15:52 Siamak Moshiri

There's always organization part, there's always process part and the business side of it.

00:15:58 Siamak Moshiri

And I know that you have spoke about this all the time.

00:16:02 Siamak Moshiri

So do you think that China is doing this, is orchestrating this whole architecture, business process, architecture and organization in a more fluent and more, do you think they got the hang of it compared to maybe the companies that we deal with here?

00:16:18 Siamak Moshiri

Or what's your take on that?

00:16:21 Florian Rohde

Yes, those are three different topics.

00:16:23 Florian Rohde

Let me address one after the other because it's not one answer for all.

00:16:27 Florian Rohde

So from architecture point of view, I was very impressed.

00:16:29 Florian Rohde

And I cannot, unfortunately for NDA reasons, I can't go into detail.

00:16:32 Florian Rohde

But I was very impressed.

00:16:33 Florian Rohde

I was demonstrated some past, present, and future architecture ideas.

00:16:38 Florian Rohde

And it is pretty much aligned with what I would propose to OEMs as well.

00:16:44 Florian Rohde

So from architecture point of view, I think they have a good hang on it.

00:16:48 Florian Rohde

The good thing for them is they don't have much legacy, right?

00:16:50 Florian Rohde

So the first generation of cars, they were just purely integrating third-party components.

00:16:55 Florian Rohde

Now they are starting to build their own architectures in collaboration.

00:16:59 Florian Rohde

This is just also how the Chinese culture is.

00:17:02 Florian Rohde

collaborate by design with your suppliers and so on.

00:17:08 Florian Rohde

But from architecture point of view, they're going definitely into the direction of what's what we call high compute power systems, so HPC units in the car and so on, central architecture.

00:17:18 Florian Rohde

Right now it's domain architecture.

00:17:20 Florian Rohde

Without going into more details, they got a checkbox on that.

00:17:24 Florian Rohde

The next was organization-wise.

00:17:26 Florian Rohde

So organization-wise, and this is what I'm talking with them a lot, they have a challenge.

00:17:30 Florian Rohde

They are really good in

00:17:32 Florian Rohde

in creating those new features and so on.

00:17:36 Florian Rohde

But the efficiency, that's what we're working on, right?

00:17:38 Florian Rohde

So they have a lot of engineers, a lot of labor going into those features, and they address those quick pace with a big human resource pool.

00:17:50 Florian Rohde

And even over in China, labor is getting slightly more expensive over time, so that's what we're discussing, right?

00:17:57 Florian Rohde

So how can we actually be more efficient?

00:17:59 Florian Rohde

For example, use

00:18:01 Florian Rohde

leaner structures in organizations, for example, use more automation, for example, use closed-loop learning from our fleet, and so on and so on and so on.

00:18:10 Florian Rohde

Very interesting topics.

00:18:11 Florian Rohde

At that point, they actually learned from us.

00:18:15 Florian Rohde

Something Chinese are traditionally anchored in with their approach and culture is that processes have to be followed and the processes have to be designed upfront.

00:18:27 Florian Rohde

Similar to what we see also with European and US OEMs, and they're struggling because change is happening so fast and the process actually breaks or slows down the change.

00:18:40 Florian Rohde

And that's something we are openly discussing with them.

00:18:42 Florian Rohde

You have to start a more agile process.

00:18:47 Florian Rohde

So not agile, the framework, but your process itself has to be more agile.

00:18:53 Florian Rohde

So as an example, I mean, as you mentioned at the beginning, I was at Tesla for six years and the first question I get from OEMs is like, hey, can you just tell us the exact process of Tesla software?

00:19:04 Florian Rohde

And I said, well, I can't tell you the process of the last week I was there, but the next week it was different, right?

00:19:10 Florian Rohde

So there is a process.

00:19:12 Florian Rohde

And I think it is very important when you have large engineering organizations.

00:19:16 Florian Rohde

Of course, it is important that you have a process.

00:19:18 Florian Rohde

But the most important thing is to have a dynamic process that

00:19:22 Florian Rohde

continuously improves.

00:19:24 Florian Rohde

If you run into a stopgap with your current process, or you have to do something only to satisfy the process, but it doesn't make the product any better, then you should actually open up that process and say, okay, we have to improve and we have to change that.

00:19:39 Florian Rohde

This is where the OEMs and suppliers in China just get into the groove, right?

00:19:44 Florian Rohde

So it's

00:19:46 Florian Rohde

Also a mindset thing, while, when you look here in Silicon Valley, for example, there's a lot of engineers like, okay, I want to improve everything.

00:19:53 Florian Rohde

I want to improve the product, the process, I want to improve the organization and so on, and I'll do it right now.

00:19:58 Florian Rohde

And then the company says, okay, cool, do it.

00:20:01 Florian Rohde

Well, in the Chinese company, traditionally, this is not how they work, right?

00:20:05 Florian Rohde

So this is, it's just coming up that the engineers are actually rethinking some of their processes and so on.

00:20:10 Florian Rohde

But it was interesting, I overheard, and overheard is tricky because I don't speak Chinese, but there was like an AI-based translating tool that translated my voice into Chinese.

00:20:21 Florian Rohde

And it worked, sometimes it worked backward as well.

00:20:24 Florian Rohde

And I overheard a couple of engineers saying like, after I presented my continuous delivery as the framework and so on, they said, this is what we want to do and this is what we are aware that we have to do that.

00:20:38 Florian Rohde

Now we just have to live it and have to adjust our company processes and so on.

00:20:43 Florian Rohde

So it's not a big secret to them how to do the whole SDV thing, but they also have to adjust a little bit.

00:20:50 Florian Rohde

They come from a different direction, right?

00:20:52 Florian Rohde

So they come from, you know, 10, 20 years of legacy and really into IoT world and in production of a lot of things.

00:21:03 Florian Rohde

So they can build a lot of things with the same quality really, really fast, right?

00:21:08 Florian Rohde

So they have to learn a couple of different things than, for example, a European or an American OEM.

00:21:14 Siamak Moshiri

Yeah, I think just when you were talking, it just jumped in my mind that like into 70s or 80s when Toyota Production System, TPS was or lean production or just in time was very good concepts and new concepts and very creative concepts in automotive industry where a lot of OEMs learned from

00:21:38 Siamak Moshiri

maybe Japanese, but actually I heard also that just in time or TPS was not originated in Japan.

00:21:44 Siamak Moshiri

Japan implemented them in a very good way.

00:21:47 Siamak Moshiri

So I think 60s.

00:21:49 Siamak Moshiri

a few universities in the US actually invented those concepts, and then they were more implemented in Japan.

00:21:54 Siamak Moshiri

But then anyways, Toyota promoted them and used them as a very way of reducing costs and basically improving efficiency.

00:22:03 Siamak Moshiri

We are right now on the cusp of another development in the automotive industry where agile systems and software factory and everything is coming to the market.

00:22:11 Siamak Moshiri

But I wish we had a little bit more open market as we used to have in 70s and 80s with the whole world that the automotive companies could

00:22:19 Siamak Moshiri

work together much more collaboratively.

00:22:21 Siamak Moshiri

Yesterday actually was the opening of the Shanghai Auto Show.

00:22:24 Siamak Moshiri

I'm not sure if you follow that or not.

00:22:26 Siamak Moshiri

So I think we'll hear more and more from the yet latest recent developments from that event soon after the show is underway.

00:22:36 Siamak Moshiri

And we'll see that basically how I heard like 80 OEMs actually are participating and 140, 150 new vehicle platforms are being showcased.

00:22:45 Siamak Moshiri

So that's amazing.

00:22:47 Siamak Moshiri

I think 80% of them are EVs, if I'm not mistaken from the news I heard.

00:22:51 Florian Rohde

Especially when you compare to the CES here in Las Vegas this year, where there was basically no Western OEMs, only Chinese OEMs, and the Chinese OEMs showcased cars for their market over here.

00:23:05 Florian Rohde

So that brings us a little bit back to the original discussions, like the market and the demand in the market as well, right?

00:23:11 Florian Rohde

So you can almost say it's like, okay, if the market doesn't

00:23:15 Florian Rohde

ask for all this progress and this futuristic improvements, they're kind of like at fault as well, so that our industry is stagnating with.

00:23:26 Siamak Moshiri

Well, Florian, that's been great.

00:23:28 Siamak Moshiri

It's been a great conversation.

00:23:29 Siamak Moshiri

I enjoyed it a lot.

00:23:30 Siamak Moshiri

Thank you for letting me picking your brain on some of these topics, and I hope that we can have another conversation soon.

00:23:37 Siamak Moshiri

Thank you for everyone for tuning in and listening, and we will come back to you soon for another topic.

00:23:43 Siamak Moshiri

Thanks.

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