What does it mean to leave and cleave in today's world? What happens when we don't?
Whether you're about to be married, you've been married for years, or you have adult children who have said, "I do," God's command to leave and cleave is meant to help the marriages you care about thrive.
My guests, Bruce and Sue Osterink have mentored nearly one hundred couples, and offer timeless wisdom for the beautiful (yet sometimes painfully challenging) process of two becoming one in marriage—which can't happen without first leaving the family you came from.
Guests: Bruce and Sue Osterink
Bible Passage: Genesis 2:25
Get your Freebie: The Live Like It's True Workbook
Mentioned Resources:
Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith
{buy now}
Comparison Girl for Teens
{buy now}
Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.
Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith.
Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.
What does it mean to leave and cleave in today's world? What happens when we don't?
Whether you're about to be married, you've been married for years, or you have adult children who have said, "I do," God's command to leave and cleave is meant to help the marriages you care about thrive.
My guests, Bruce and Sue Osterink have mentored nearly one hundred couples, and offer timeless wisdom for the beautiful (yet sometimes painfully challenging) process of two becoming one in marriage—which can't happen without first leaving the family you came from.
Guests: Bruce and Sue Osterink
Bible Passage: Genesis 2:25
Get your Freebie: The Live Like It's True Workbook
Mentioned Resources:
Shaped by God's Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith
{buy now}
Comparison Girl for Teens
{buy now}
Get our free "Pray God's Promises" prayer guide.
Go to Shannonpopkin.com/PROMISES/ for more information on my neww Bible study, Shaped by God’s Promises: Lessons from Sarah on Fear and Faith.
Visit ResoundMedia.cc for the Live Leadership Podcast, along with other Gospel centered resources.
Well, welcome back to another episode of Live. Like It's True, i have two friends with me here today, bruce and Sue Osterink. Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having us.
Bruce Osterink:Good to be with you.
Shannon Popkin:Thank you. We have been friends for a while now. We met through an organization called Generous Giving. You were our mentors or facilitators. Ken and I were at a retreat and then we just became friends And I'm sitting at your kitchen table right now. You've had me here a bunch of different times and so appreciate you. I thought it might be interesting for our guests or our listeners to hear, bruce, you used to be a commercial general contractor. Yes, Yes. And you were in. Both was the golf.
Bruce Osterink:Was also involved in both the health and fitness industry and the golf business too.
Shannon Popkin:Okay, wonderful, and you've been retired for.
Bruce Osterink:Almost 30 years.
Shannon Popkin:Wow, which is an unusual part of your story.
Bruce Osterink:Yes, That's another whole story.
Shannon Popkin:yes, That's another yes, But the part I love about you, Bruce, is God told you just to be available to people and you have ever since. Amazing story And, Sue, you used to own what was it? Six?
Sue Osterink:Six clothing stores in two states Wow.
Shannon Popkin:That is amazing. I didn't realize it was six. Yeah, papagalos.
Bruce Osterink:Yes, yes, i remember shopping there.
Shannon Popkin:Yes, so, and you all do premarital mentoring. Is that right? That's correct. And how many couples do you think you've mentored?
Bruce Osterink:We've been doing that for 22 years. I don't know that we've ever counted the couples, but I have to believe it's close to 100. Yeah, pushing, 100. Wow.
Shannon Popkin:That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. I think we can all learn from you, and your experiences just as you've worked through the unique circumstances that people are coming from their backgrounds.
Shannon Popkin:So we have just finished up season four of Live, like It's True, and I thought we were done. And then we were having dinner with you all Ken and I were having dinner with you all And this idea of leaving and cleaving came up And you were sharing how important this is to the conversations of marriage. So in season four we went through Genesis one through three, just paragraph by paragraph, looking at the creation story, our origin story. And you know, in the world today, as we drift from God's original design, it's so important that we go back and understand this first story And it's told as a story, which I think is so interesting, and part of that story involves the first marriage, adam and Eve. So after that series we went, we looked at some hot topic things. In fact, i was at a conference last week and met some women I had never met and they were pulling up my podcast I had shared about And one of them was scrolling through like wow.
Bruce Osterink:Shannon.
Shannon Popkin:And I said no, no, no, i do not love talking about controversial things, but we're talking about Genesis, So we have to talk about these things right, and I think that this topic is one. As we were having dinner that day, i realized we really did not talk about leaving and cleaving, and it's really key. I think it's too big of a thing for us to miss. I don't know that. We'll get back to Genesis soon, so we've got to talk about it now. So what we're going to do is look at Genesis two I'm sure some of our listeners need a refresh And then we're going to really lean in on this idea of one flesh and leaving and cleaving. So, sue, would you mind reading those verses for us?
Sue Osterink:We're reading in the ESV translation Okay, and it's Genesis two, 20 through 25. The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man And while he slept, took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. Then the man said this at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Shannon Popkin:Thank you. So I think it's so interesting to see the context of the story comes right after God told Adam to name all of the animals You know. so he's given him this assignment and the assignment had an end goal. The goal was that Adam would see there was not a helper fit for him, and then God's going to make this helper fit for him. And this was the very first marriage. So this idea, though, of one flesh we didn't really talk much about this- in our.
Shannon Popkin:Genesis series. What does this mean? Like what does it mean to be one flesh? Can we start with that maybe?
Bruce Osterink:I think it's an all encompassing statement And clearly it represents the physical piece of marriage, the sexual piece of marriage one flesh. But it's so much more than that. It's becoming one in all areas of your marriage in the economic area, in the environmental area, in riding the mountain tops and the valleys together. So it's an all encompassing thing And our perspective on it is that's the goal of marriage. The goal of marriage is to become one flesh.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, and you can just see how many marriages don't live in that oneness. So the text says at the beginning of verse 24,. it says therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. So what is this one flesh? Why would it prompt, for this reason, instruction to leave and cleave? What is it about one fleshness that has to do with leaving and cleaving?
Bruce Osterink:If you look at that verse, that's really God's design for marriage is encapsulated in that verse and there's really four pieces to it. The first is therefore, and you think, well, what does that have to do with marriage? Well, therefore, refers to what happened just previous to that. So we have to look at the verse ahead of it to see that what happened before that was God created Eve and he brought Eve to Adam as a gift. And what did Adam do? He received Eve as a gift from God, not knowing anything about her. So that's where marriage starts.
Bruce Osterink:That's where God's design for marriage starts is to receive your spouse as a gift from God, and then from there it's a progressive thing. So I have to receive. If I don't receive, i can't take the next step. So once I receive, then the next step is I have to leave. Once I leave, then I can cleave. But if I don't leave, i can't cleave. Ok, so there's a progression here. There's a progression, so there's an order to what it is, and so once I cleave, then I can begin the lifelong journey of becoming one. So this is how God designed marriage, and the final piece is this whole idea of becoming one, and we look at that, as that's the goal of marriage Two people who have been to God has now put together, and he's told them what he's joined together. He doesn't want ever separated. And now you're on the journey for the rest of your life to become one, and that journey will draw you closer to God and closer to each other.
Shannon Popkin:I just want to look at that verse again now in light of what you've just said. So therefore, since God created this woman and gave her to Adam, therefore, a man, Adam, shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife and they shall become one flesh. So it's like the leaving comes first and then hold fast to his wife. It's the cleaving, And then in progression.
Bruce Osterink:I think I've got it, that's amazing Good.
Shannon Popkin:I think we've solved all of my marriage problems.
Shannon Popkin:You know I remember a time when Ken and I we had just been married. We got married in June. This was Labor Day, so September. We lived in Wisconsin. We had come to visit my parents in Michigan and we were just sitting around the dinner table and my mom said well, you know, ken's birthday is next month, so why don't you all come back, you know, and we'll celebrate. And great sounded good to me.
Shannon Popkin:Next thing we knew Ken was not there and I looked out and he's sitting on the curb by the mailbox And this. We didn't do that And so I went out and I'm like what are you doing? Like I'm like this is not normal, what are you doing? He was mad And I was trying to understand and he said, shannon, I don't want to come back here for my birthday next month. And I was like you don't, why would you not want to come back here? Why would you not want to celebrate And be with your mother, exactly, and be with my parents? It made no sense to me. So this was just a foreign concept for me heading into marriage. I hadn't thought much about it. And do you experience that? that a lot of couples do.
Bruce Osterink:Yeah, we think it's a huge issue, particularly in our culture today, and the thing that's important to understand is that you can't become one entirely if you don't leave, because the lack of leaving will get in the middle of your oneness, which is what you just described in the story you told is your lack of leaving got between you and Ken, and so it was. you were not one in that situation as a result of not leaving.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, yeah, i bet I could go back and trace a lot of the issues in our early marriage, which you know there were a lot. We think it's actually a miracle that we are still married. But, yeah, probably had a lot to do with me just not having that correct mind frame And I don't think it would have taken a lot of effort but it would have taken a new way of thinking about it.
Shannon Popkin:Because we didn't even live close to my parents, so, but it was just a mind frame, it was thinking differently about. This is new. You know, i have to leave before I can leave. I love that. So is this instruction, though is it for both husbands and wives, because Genesis 2.24 only instructs the husband. It says a man shall leave his father and mother. So what about women?
Sue Osterink:Oh we, that was confusing to us too, And so we actually went to our pastor and his wife And what it is? it was cultural at that time that the woman would leave and go live near or with the husband's parents. But he was instructed to leave them, both financially, emotionally, even though they lived in close proximity. But she left, So she didn't have to be told to leave. That was understood.
Sue Osterink:And of course then she didn't have a cell phone or a computer to keep in touch or to call mom when they had problems, or to call mom every day just to see what's going on in the family. So she didn't have a problem leaving. Well, she didn't need that instruction.
Shannon Popkin:No, because it was just going to naturally happen. It was going to naturally happen, Yeah.
Sue Osterink:And over time, our culture has changed And therefore this has become a problem.
Bruce Osterink:Okay, so the leaving needs to happen on both sides. Okay, because we don't do that.
Shannon Popkin:I didn't move in with my husband's parents. I'm sure you didn't either.
Shannon Popkin:At least in our American culture. Now there are some other cultures now that that would be far more acceptable. Well, or natural. When I was in the Middle East, what I learned is they just build on another layer of the house. You know, when one of the sons get married, they just build on and they leave all of the houses unfinished, because you get tax breaks If you're in construction. So they just leave the top unfinished and then they just keep adding, you know, every few years. But I'll bet in that culture they really have to work even harder at leaving and leaving. The husband does, But both the husband and the wife are to some extent leaving And I think it may be a little more equal or balanced in our culture, right.
Bruce Osterink:Yeah, it needs to happen on both sides in order for you to again. The purpose of leaving is so you can become one. So if either one of you don't leave, you're going to struggle becoming one.
Shannon Popkin:Right. So what does it look like in today's world to leave and cleave Like? what does it mean? Can you give, like, any examples, or maybe even some examples of what it looks like to not leave and cleave? Yeah, good question.
Bruce Osterink:Well, you know, there's two sides to the, to the leaving piece, the command. Let's make clear, god, these are not suggestions from God, these are commands that husband is to leave And so implied in that is that mom and dad have to release. So there's, although not explicitly said, implied in the fact that he's commanding the children to leave is the understanding that mom and dad will release them and let them leave. And I think in today's culture we have problems on both sides of that equation. We have kids who kind of like hanging around mom and dad because all the benefits that come from it the free vacations, the cottage, the, you name it And so they they kind of like hanging around.
Bruce Osterink:And you have mom and dad who like it as well And they don't really want to let their kids go. They want to still have an influence on them, they want to keep everybody close to the nest, and so we just see it as a real cultural issue today that we're not creating this separation which creates this new family unit that God's designed and marriage, and that has to be a separate family unit. It's still connected. We haven't stopped seeing mom and dad, we haven't lost the relationship, we haven't stopped honoring them Okay, but our goal is no longer to please mom and dad like it was when we were kids.
Shannon Popkin:There's something that's changed?
Sue Osterink:Yes, I don't think parents want to see their children suffer and they want them to have everything they've always had. So we robbed from them the joy of building your own life together, building saving up to buy the house. You get the house before you're married.
Bruce Osterink:Mom.
Sue Osterink:And dad want to help, okay, so that all looks great, but you've robbed them of that joy of working together as a team, husband and wife. And then there's the division between two families, too, right, and so that gets hard. Yeah. So the culture, and too, i think, the economic situation in our culture, has made it more difficult for kids to be on their own. Like health insurance Yeah, they're on their parents' cell phone bill. You're connected, at least until you're 26. Yeah, And so there's no breaking free.
Shannon Popkin:I've heard you several times now refer to economics you know money? Yes, And do you have a sense that there's almost like I'm buying these ties, i'm spending on you so that I have these expectations?
Bruce Osterink:I don't know that that's necessarily true, but one of the phrases that we use is money has strings, it just does. You can try and deny it, but the reality is it does. Sometimes they're intentional, but sometimes they're totally unintentional. Sure, mom and dad are simply doing it because they want to help their kids out, but do the kids feel an obligation? and in return that that comes with the fact that mom and dad are doing something. So it's like mom and dad just took them on a vacation. And now mom and dad say we want you to come over for dinner Sunday after church, and they're saying well, i guess we better go. They just took us on a vacation. So mom and dad didn't take them on vacation for them to feel a sense of obligation, but it's just kind of a natural feeling.
Bruce Osterink:And so when the money tie isn't cut, there are just strings and you never quite know how they're going to play out. But they're not going to play out in a way that creates wonders And they're supposed to be changed. At that point in life And I mean that's what this verse is saying You're leaving the family of origin that you spent all these years with, and now you're getting married and you're creating a new family, and that family needs to exist on its own. It's still connected to the old family, but it needs to be its own family.
Shannon Popkin:So tell us, though, how can we be honoring and yet still leave and leave, because that's where I think some of us feel that tension of like I want to honor my parents and they're asking for this. I love what you said, like it is a responsibility both for the parents to allow them to leave or even encourage them to leave. I'm getting to the age where I could have adult children getting married, and I'm taking notes on how do I encourage this leaving, but I still want to be honored, right? I don't want them to just forget who I am.
Bruce Osterink:And leaving doesn't negate God's command to honor your mother and father. They are compatible, they're not exclusive. And we think it starts before you get married is to have an honest conversation with your parents about the fact that your relationship is going to be changing And it's going to be different than it's been, and God is commanding us to leave you, and we're going to be obedient to God's command. We don't know all of what that's going to look like, but we all have to anticipate that there is going to be change in our relationships. You know the young woman who always goes to her dad for advice. No longer she goes to her husband for advice.
Shannon Popkin:Guilty as charged, bruce. Yeah, what did you?
Sue Osterink:say there, i think you misspoke, but you said go to her father for advice.
Bruce Osterink:Yes, Yeah. And now she's going to go to her husband And that may hurt dad's feelings. But is that dishonoring to her dad? No, it's not dishonoring. He may feel like it is, but if he looks at scripture, she's doing exactly what God commands her to do.
Sue Osterink:Or even for the dad to say what does your husband think? before I tell you anything, maybe you should put him on the phone. Would be a way for dad to help her break that. It's okay if they both go to him.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah.
Sue Osterink:It's okay if she does and then relays the message, her husband will feel disrespected. Yeah.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, early in marriage, i mean, my husband was not a Mr Fix It, not by a long shot. One time he cut off a door because we got new carpeting and he cut off the wrong end And then he glued it back together. He glued it back together and didn't tell me. And so I'm walking down the hallway and you can see this thin line of daylight coming through the door. I'm like what in the world? So I didn't really trust Ken And my dad is very good around fixing things handy. And so that was my natural defense, like maybe we should call my dad. I don't want to know what you think, i want to know what my dad thinks.
Shannon Popkin:And that did create a lot of tension. Now we joke about it now, but in the moment it was hard for Ken. He did not want me to be calling my dad, he wanted me to trust him. He wanted to be the husband to me that God was calling him to be. But that wasn't me wanting For me. That wasn't about honoring my dad or dishonoring my dad, it was just. It was just the context that I was used to.
Bruce Osterink:That's the way you don't always live.
Shannon Popkin:I had always gone to my dad And I love that. You know that was a very sweet relationship throughout my whole young adult life. But do you think, like early on in marriage, it's kind of important to set precedent like yes?
Bruce Osterink:that's why we encourage couples to talk to their parents even before they're married. What we say is don't wait for the issue to come up. You can have a conversation about leaving in a neutral environment. That's a much healthier conversation than the conversation about where you're going to spend the first Christmas And that looks like-.
Sue Osterink:Thanksgiving day.
Bruce Osterink:you don't talk about Christmas And so the sooner you put it into practice, the better. Okay, the part of what we say is when you walk back down the aisle you are now one And the message you need to send to your friends, to your parents, to your family is we are now one and you're not going to separate us. We are going to be together. Okay, and this is part of it is the idea that we are leaving mom and dad and mom and dad are going to allow us to leave right from the get go. The longer we think, the longer it goes on, the more difficult it becomes.
Shannon Popkin:Okay, i like that phrase you just used, though We're not going to allow you to separate us. Give me some practical ways of how you cannot allow others to separate. I'm thinking like even just not having conversations separate making decisions.
Sue Osterink:That's huge. Not sharing for girls, especially to share anything they don't particularly like about their new husband or their husband to share any marital problems with, even friends only certain friends that you agreed upon, but never with your parents.
Shannon Popkin:Okay.
Sue Osterink:So so I would say to my husband do you mind if I share openly with this particular friend, correct, but not with mom and dad, because then they will hold on to it even though you. You'll move on. Okay, mom and dad are there.
Shannon Popkin:There's wisdom there. There's so much wisdom there.
Sue Osterink:And I think too, a lot of young women are used to calling mom every day, especially if they're in college. Mom wants to know how they're doing, where they are. I mean, we're living in a dangerous world and so, but after they're married, to switch over that emotional connection to the husband and not to the mom can be very difficult.
Shannon Popkin:Well, and we're also living in a digital world where moms are used to being able to open their phones and see exactly where their daughter is and call her and have access to her completely 24 seven, and maybe that needs to change. It needs to stop.
Sue Osterink:Okay, yeah.
Bruce Osterink:We and again, this is this, this fine line is still honoring mom Sure And, you know, allowing her to be a part of your life without the emotional attachment that you've had in the past, because the emotional attachment has to shift to your husband, yeah, and another thing is that that needs to happen is mom calls and says, hey, would you and your husband, like, come for dinner Sunday night? you say, oh, that sounds great, let me check with my husband. And then your husband says you know, that really doesn't sound good to me. And now you call mom back and say it doesn't work and mom blames your husband, sure.
Shannon Popkin:So what's a better, what's a better way, Bruce?
Bruce Osterink:You start by saying well, let let us check our schedule and we'll talk about it and I'll get back to you. So if, if, you enthusiastically respond yes, you've put yourself in a position of throwing your husband on under the bus.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, yep Or vice versa. Right, and I mean back to the financial piece. I'm just thinking when we were first I mean even we'd been married, i don't know five or six years and we moved to Grand Rapids and I guess maybe seven or eight years at that point.
Shannon Popkin:And my parents and our extended family would go out for dinner you know regularly And I remember accepting those invitations and then turning to Ken and say, oh, we're going to dinner with them And he was like I can't afford this, like this is not in the budget. And you know, now, looking back, i so appreciate that I had a husband who was watching out for us financially, like we lived very frugally in those years so that we could like have more freedom in these years, and I am experiencing that now. It did not feel like freedom in those years.
Shannon Popkin:And it was a huge point of tension. but I can just see so much the value of what. if I had said I'm going to check with Ken, not accepting the invitation and not expressing like that sounds wonderful, that's a respectful And that's where I say that there's a difference between honoring and pleasing.
Bruce Osterink:When you respond enthusiastically, you're just trying to please mom.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah.
Bruce Osterink:I mean, that's really where it's coming from, yeah, and in the process, you're probably going to disrespect your husband. It comes back to part of becoming one is you make decisions together. You do not make decisions unilaterally, whether that's a huge financial decision or whether it's a decision about going someplace for dinner. You make those decisions as a team. That's great And that's what one this looks like.
Shannon Popkin:That's really good.
Bruce Osterink:Really good.
Sue Osterink:I think the other thing we tell young couples they don't owe an explanation to their parents. If they don't want to go to dinner, it's okay. They don't have to say we can't go because we have something else on our calendar. Then mom and dad are going to say, well, how about this night? So the best thing to say is it doesn't work for us. And then they say, well, what about another night? Well, it doesn't work for us. Mom or dad Continue to repeat that statement And that way you have self-respect and it gets you kind of off the hook.
Shannon Popkin:Sure That's so hard. I mean, I can just feel the tension of saying that the first time. But again, if you've had these conversations previous to the marriage, that's going to be expected. You know we do feel that burden of I'm to give an explanation if I can't come Right, We don't have to do that, not necessarily.
Sue Osterink:I think. sometimes people just need permission to say that. That's okay to say that.
Shannon Popkin:So if you're listening right now. You have permission to say that doesn't work for me And you're not being dishonoring, you're not Being simple. I think we carry false guilt in these situations. So how does this look, though, over different life stages? We've talked a little bit about early marriage. What about when children come along or further on, and The principle remains the same.
Bruce Osterink:Okay, the situations will change And so the principle will be applied differently, but the principle of leaving doesn't change. It'll change when you have children. that will bring up a whole new set of situations, a whole new decisions to be made, but the principle of leaving and the principle of oneness still remain.
Shannon Popkin:So what about a couple that hasn't put this in place early on And then it's getting progressively more difficult? Like, let's say, you know early on you went on vacation with your parents, but now you've got three kids and you'd actually like to do your own plans for vacation. Any advice for that? Great question.
Bruce Osterink:You know, at some point you have to swallow hard and say we're going to address this.
Bruce Osterink:And it's again the same thing. If you're recognizing that you, if you've been married 10 years and you're recognizing you really never left, don't wait for the question about the vacation to come up, because that's the worst time to talk about it, because it gets emotionally connected to this trip that mom and dad were planning on you going on. So I think that if you recognize you've been in marriage for a while and you really haven't left, sit down with mom and dad and have the conversation that you should have had 10 years ago.
Shannon Popkin:Do you suggest that you talk about what the Bible says in that conversation?
Bruce Osterink:Absolutely.
Shannon Popkin:I mean the reason you.
Sue Osterink:It's about if they're believers.
Bruce Osterink:The reason you're doing this is because God commanded you to, and what He said to you in His design of marriage is if you don't do it, you can't become the one that I want you to become, and the beauty of God's design of marriage is becoming one. If we can't do that, you know that's the reason we leave Right.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, i'm just concerned that that might sound condescending from you know we're talking generations right And so for a child to teach the parent. This is what the Bible teaches, especially believing parents. Do you have any advice?
Bruce Osterink:I don't know that. You have to teach your parents as much as just simply saying we are being obedient. Okay, this is what God tells us to do, and we want to be obedient to what He tells us to do.
Sue Osterink:Okay, another thought that we had used to Bruce's parents would plan a big vacation, like for their anniversary, and we would be told the dates and expected to be there And we'd often go. I don't really want to go to Finland in July, right.
Bruce Osterink:I'm in.
Sue Osterink:Michigan. I want warm weather, but we would go because it was expected. These expectations are put on us and we go with kind of a bad attitude, which we think back now. we were being very selfish in a way, because they were wanting to bless us, but it really wasn't a blessing. Could they have done it differently? Could they have sat down with us and said we'd like to do a trip? Do you guys have any ideas, instead of them planning it and then telling us what we're going to do? Right, so I think there's a way. a parent, if they want to do this, to ask their adult children.
Shannon Popkin:Yes.
Sue Osterink:This is what you want to do. And then they have the opportunity to say not this year we want to take just our family and let mom and dad say great. I think there's two sides to it. There's those expectations. We've always spent the fourth as you lie together, so this year they're going with the other parents and so mom and dad get hurt. It's just if in the beginning you could talk about what are the expectations, which ones can we live with and which ones can't? we Sure?
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, and I mean, the thing about families is they're always dynamic, they're never static. We always are shifting to a new right And we have to have this flexibility. I interviewed a woman for it when I wrote control girl and she shared that every holiday season they would get an agenda from I think it was her mother-in-law, i can't remember exactly, but they would get an agenda And that was they had to be here at this time and there and it was all planned exactly for like 10 days And it was exhausting because they had little ones and they didn't really want to be going. It wasn't really an option. So I think those of us you know, with our adult children, we have to be considerate and recognize like, because we want our kids to have great marriages right.
Shannon Popkin:We really want that. I mean, when a marriage fails, we're the ones who bear the burden of that, when our kids are suffering, and so we want to help them have healthy marriages, and God's design is the best way to accomplish that It's a beautiful design, yeah. I think as parents.
Sue Osterink:We're going to get hurt. Okay, expected. They cannot meet all of your needs and expectations and we need to have a life beyond our kids. Yeah, they become our idols. Sometimes They do. Let's go. And that's hard on the child.
Shannon Popkin:It is. I think I've heard Tim Keller say no child can handle the pressure of being your God. Right, they're just, they're no matter the age of the child, and really our confidence and our security and our joy needs to be rooted in God And then we have that freedom. I know that's easier said than done.
Sue Osterink:It is, but it's. yeah. as a parent, i know we get hurt, but yet we've hurt and you forgive And as a family you try to adjust and forgive each other and still love, but let them live their lives.
Shannon Popkin:Yep, exactly, well, okay, so we've talked a little bit about this, but the problems that it causes in marriage when we don't leave and cleave.
Bruce Osterink:Well, the basic problem is it's hard to become one Okay, and you know it can play out in so many ways, but it's kind of like if it goes on and on, it can easily build up a wall between husband and wife.
Sue Osterink:Resentment, yeah, a lot of resentment.
Bruce Osterink:And if it goes on too long, sometimes it takes radical action to change it, and you don't want to let it get to that point.
Shannon Popkin:Do you think this could actually even threaten a marriage? Oh, absolutely, oh, it has.
Bruce Osterink:We've had a young couple that came to us whose marriage was in serious trouble because they had never left their parents, or one side of the marriage had never left their parents, and it was just They were obeying their parents. Always trying to please and obey their parents And it was driving a huge wedge in their marriage.
Shannon Popkin:Okay, and so what did they have to do to correct that? Did the marriage survive?
Bruce Osterink:The marriage has survived and it's doing very well, but they had to take some pretty radical action to break that bond that had never been broken when they got married. Because what we like to think is, if it's close to normal, you can make little tweaks and get it back to normal. When it gets way out of whack, you almost have to go all the way over the other way in order then to bring it back to normal.
Bruce Osterink:Okay, so you're saying a lot of whack would be like you're very tied to your family, Never left mom and dad are controlling your life and your marriage And you want everything, my mom and dad want you to do And you don't just tweak that a little bit by saying, oh we'll change that a little bit. We recommended to them and we give them a lot of credit.
Sue Osterink:They did it.
Bruce Osterink:They went all the way to the other side and they cut off all contact with mom and dad.
Shannon Popkin:Really hard thing to do, all contact.
Bruce Osterink:No seeing them. No seeing the grandkids. All contact. But they had to do that in order to get back to a healthy spot. Okay, and they did. And they are back in a healthy spot. The relationships with mom and dad are healing. Their marriage is healing, but it can get to that point where it can be the cause of divorce.
Sue Osterink:And they did bring in professional counseling. Okay, sure As a family, yeah, and probably helped with other children as well. And they weren't the only ones where they had to really cut off contact. We've had a couple of couples like that. For how long? Two or three months, okay, yeah.
Bruce Osterink:Okay, a lot depends on how the parents respond.
Sue Osterink:Okay.
Bruce Osterink:Yeah, okay, and if they're willing to go to counseling and help and understand and make this relationship healthy, it doesn't have to be so long. But if they're just saying, no, we want it the way it was And we're going to continue to push for that, it could be a lot longer. Sure.
Shannon Popkin:So sometimes it takes something drastic to get reset Right. Yeah, great way to put it, yeah.
Bruce Osterink:Yeah, and that's why we think it's so important to start right from the beginning.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, because nobody wants to go through that, you don't?
Bruce Osterink:want to get to that point, because that is hard, hard work Yeah.
Sue Osterink:And we don't want to get on the child. Because they're so used to pleasing mom and dad, they live in this fear all the time. I think that's the thing we see too. Is there's a fear involved of displeasing? Yeah, because the response they get when they displace mom and dad is not good. So as parents, we need to be careful.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, yeah, this conversation is for both sides. Yes, it's for our children and parents And everyone in between. It's just so difficult. So how can we, if we have adult children who are walking towards marriage, how can we help our adult children then to leave?
Bruce Osterink:Well, i think it's the whole idea to release them, and that's more than just a verbal release. It involves your emotions and a lot of psychological releases that you really can't just say, well, you go, because the tendency will be to release and then take them back. Yeah. And so to really, in your own mind, convince yourself and believe that this is what's best for them and this is what's best for us, that we do release them, we allow them to live their own life, we don't interfere as much as we want to call our daughter every day, we don't do it And to just break some of those patterns that have developed over the years And they're natural patterns.
Bruce Osterink:They're the natural patterns that develop between parent and child, and so it's gonna be easy to just naturally continue those patterns, and so it really involves a conscious decision to change behavior.
Shannon Popkin:Like. Christmas might look different this year, vacation might look different, maybe whatever every Sunday in our area.
Bruce Osterink:We live in a Dutch community.
Shannon Popkin:And this isn't the habit of my family, but a lot of families gather on Sunday, extended family, and that's kind of expected.
Bruce Osterink:And I think the other thing is let go of your expectations. If you carry your expectations into their marriage, you're not going to help their marriage. And, like you said earlier, shan, we all want our kids to have a good marriage And I mean we've had times where we've had to say what's most important is that our son or daughter and their husband do well together. If we have to suffer because of that, we suffer Because it's more important that they have a healthy marriage and that we have our expectations met.
Shannon Popkin:I think people don't recognize the collateral damage. Oh, I don't think so either. And it feels like I'm just making plans for Christmas. But it could really get its fingers into a marriage. I'm just realizing this is bigger than. I thought Living like it's true is living like God designed marriage. God is the one who brought Eve to Adam and said because of this, you know amen.
Bruce Osterink:Here's what you do Here's what you do.
Shannon Popkin:You leave, you leave And you set priority on this new family. It's really a matter of priorities.
Bruce Osterink:Yes, Yes, it is. It's God saying now that you're married, you're going to become one And that's your priority. It's not pleasing mom and dad, it's becoming one. That's your priority. And again, it doesn't mean you don't honor mom and dad, it's your priority is to create your own family.
Sue Osterink:One thing Bruce did, too, that I respected him for. He told our kids if we all go out to eat, don't expect me to pay every time.
Shannon Popkin:OK, they know.
Sue Osterink:And I think that gives them they can grow up. Otherwise they always feel like kids.
Shannon Popkin:The kid in the backseat? Yes, always the kid.
Sue Osterink:I really love when we go out And especially our sons will say we're buying tonight, ok, and I think that makes them feel more like a man.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah.
Sue Osterink:And yeah, I think a lot of times that expectation mom and dad are in the room, They're going to take care of everything And that doesn't need to be.
Shannon Popkin:Clear communication, though, about this. I like that, Just setting expectations, Because we all have those questions As we're going, walking into the restaurant are we paying? Are they you know? It really is. We're all thinking it. Why can't we talk about it Right?
Bruce Osterink:This is uncomfortable And we try to avoid uncomfortable conversations And it just goes back to the need to have this conversation with your parents right from the get go. It's not an easy conversation to have We're not suggesting it is But it's an important conversation to have. It's a necessary conversation to have.
Shannon Popkin:And it really frees you to invest in your marriage and your children, like that's. the goal is that you would have that freedom, not just to be free of your parents, right That's not the goal. The goal is that you're free to invest somewhere else.
Bruce Osterink:That's your priority And to create the family that God wants you to have.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, i read a book When to Walk Away by Gary Thomas And he talked about how really dysfunctional families like those very, very difficult situations. He talked about how, like, are you going to take? you know, you really only have, i think he said, maybe 10 or 15 years where your kids actually remember holidays, it's fun, and they're still at home and they're not getting married themselves, but you really you don't have that many. Are you going to take those and pour them out into a bottomless pit of a dysfunctional family? And he kind of gave permission, like no, you don't really have to do that. You know your family is your priority And if every Christmas your kid is going to remember everything blowing up like that's not really the best use of your time and your holidays.
Shannon Popkin:That was a novel thought for me. I just if we come from a unhealthy background or dysfunctional background, it's probably even more important that we think carefully about the priorities.
Bruce Osterink:But it's even important. If you come from a healthy family, you're right, because oftentimes healthy families are very close, so it's hard for mom and dad to let go of the closeness of their family And recognizing now there's another family involved and then there's going to be children, so it can be a big issue in a healthy family as well.
Shannon Popkin:Yeah, it sure can. All right, anything else you'd add, you wise marriage mentors, you know.
Sue Osterink:I think another thing we see is parents buying more toys to attract their children. It's almost like the parent that has the most toys gets the most, yeah, and we see that a lot And sometimes I'm confused with that, like, oh, should we have more toys? But I don't want my kids coming because I have the toys Right. I want them to come because they care and want to be with me, they want a relationship, right. So that gets confusing, i think in our culture, and some parents can do it and some can't, so that's hard We see that as a problem.
Shannon Popkin:You come from two sets of parents.
Sue Osterink:Right.
Shannon Popkin:And you can set up a competition, and, especially if you're trying to please them both, you need to have freedom from both.
Sue Osterink:Yeah, and sensitivity to the spouse's family that doesn't, or to that spouse of your child to Yeah.
Shannon Popkin:And so I think that's one way with you saying we're not always going to pay Maybe you could always pay, but you're not going to always pay It's a way to release And release. That's really good. This has been really helpful And I hope that our listeners, they're all going to want to meet you And set up their own little marriage mentoring session.
Bruce Osterink:Thanks for being willing to talk about this subject.
Sue Osterink:It's a hard subject.
Bruce Osterink:We just have experienced oneness in our marriage, and we know the beauty of oneness, and so anytime we see things that get in the way of a couple becoming one, we want to talk about them, and so thanks for being willing to add this topic to your podcast.
Shannon Popkin:We're just grateful for you stewarding the influence God has given you and living a faithful life of living out God's principles in your own marriage. Just thank you for being you and for sharing with all of us.
Bruce Osterink:Thank you, thank you.