A Baby Born To Restore Hope | Katy Morgan | Ruth

Have you lost hope? Have you resigned yourself to an UNhappy ending? There's a shift we see in this story of Ruth—and our own—when a baby is born to "outsiders." 

Join me for the second part of a conversation with Katy Morgan from the Good Book Company on the Live Like It's True Podcast.

Guest: Katy Morgan

Get your Free Resource: Pray the Promises

Recommended Resources: 

• Check out Shannon's Amazon Storefront HERE which features Katy's book, The Outsider. 

Katy Morgan

Katy Morgan is the award-winning author of Songs of a Warrior and a Senior Editor at The Good Book Company. She likes climbing hills and exploring new places—both in books and in real life! Before Katy joined TGBC, she used to work in a school, and now she teaches the Bible every week to children at her church. She also reads ancient Greek and has a master’s degree in Classics from Cambridge University.

--

Live Like It's True is part of the Round the Table network: Where Truth and Life Meet. Serving the church through honest storytelling and biblical reflection. 

--

Learn more at ShannonPopkin.com.

Transcript

Shannon Popkin (00:00.046)
Well, we've got Katie Morgan back for part two of a conversation about the outsider, Ruth, a retelling, which is a fictional chapter book that she's written for middle school kids. It was a great conversation. First time, I don't think you'll want to miss that. Katie is the writer of exciting novel style Bible retellings. She's from Great Britain, which means I adore her accent. She is an editor at The Good Book Company.

And we recorded this episode while she was here visiting from the UK and we were at a conference. So if you hear a little background noise, if things sound a little different than they usually do, that's why. But in our first episode, we were just talking about Boaz. And here's what we had concluded about the character of Boaz in the story of Ruth. He feels earlier in the story like he's quite an extravagant giver. And even here, like just after this passage, he

he kind of gives her like an enormous amount of grain to just take home. And I feel like sometimes people who are very generous like that, they're quite impulsive, you know, and they're quite, it's like, it's a wonderful trait, but it sometimes goes with, you know, the reason they're like that is because they, actually they're maybe a little bit changeable or, Sure, there's an emotional response. Whereas with Boaz, it's, mean, maybe he is impulsive. Maybe, you know.

But he follows through on that. He's a steady giver. Yeah, steady, measured, wise, considerate, kind. All of these beautiful characteristics and storytellers contrast characters. We've just been told the story in a particular way. And so we see this contrast. And these are probably, I don't know how old Boaz is, but he and Naomi are probably more similar in age. so Ruth is the...

the younger. so we have this contrast between Naomi who is rash and And she's super emotional. She makes these big dramatic speeches. She talks and so bitterly, call me Mara. Yeah. so I think there's this contrast and we're meant to see that. And yet, like, look at his beautiful response we talked earlier about. This is a story, like in all of the Bible, we see the Lord.

Shannon Popkin (02:27.734)
And sometimes we do rash things. Sometimes we're so emotional and we make mistakes and we do things like we're doubting God and we rush in and we like, I'm just thinking of the controlling woman thing. I I said things I regret, I get all emotional, I get mad about things and I'm trying, I try to do this and make things, you know, turn out and the Lord is just this steady.

measured, wise, kind, generous God, and he responds not in like, what are you doing? You know, he can cope with it. He can cope with it when we make a And he doesn't scold, you know, like I could imagine if you're just reading the story and you don't know what happens next. I love to read the Bible that way. Like what would you suppose would happen next? I think I might expect him to, you know, first of all, his feet are cold. She's uncovered his feet.

I don't know the whole cultural thing of that, he wakes up, sees this woman and I can say, get away from me, what are you doing? Get out of here. You freak Shoo shoo, go home, get away. Especially in the middle of the night, you're asleep, drunk probably, and maybe not completely drunk, but he's in a deep sleep.

So we're getting the raw version of Boaz. It's true. This is the 2 AM Boaz. Me at 2 AM. I always tease my husband. He's so mean. In the middle of the night, I'll say, honey, there's a sound in the night. He'll be like, I just have to go to sleep, Shannon. He's not.

or in daytime he's much more kind and considerate and compassionate but... It's your unpolished self. It's your unpolished self. It's so true. Yeah, think that's true. And it's often your worst self, it? You know, like you... Whether it's an anxiety thing or a grumpy thing or whatever it is. That 2am, 3am version of yourself is often not very pretty. Yes, but Boaz is like... There's chivalry here. You know, he's noble. He's honorable. And I love that his...

Shannon Popkin (04:30.734)
his very first word, well, he says, who are you? But then he says, the Lord bless you. know, like he, I don't know. I don't know. I just think how many of us wake up with the Lord's name on our lips like that. The Lord bless you. that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. And the, the idea of a kinsman redeemer, let's just mention that. So kin is family. Redeemer is like,

buying something back that has been lost. So what is this role and how does that play out in the scriptures? Yeah, so it's talked about in Leviticus 25 and it's basically this role of someone who kind of guards the integrity of the family in a way. you would, if I get poor and I end up having to sell myself into slavery to pay my debts.

then my kinsman redeemer is going to come along and buy me back. Or if I have to sell my land, again, he will come along and kind of redeem that land. He'll buy it back. And so I think there was this really strong, like you were saying earlier, there was this really strong idea of the land is really important. The people are really important. The land and the generations, that's really these promises of God that we talked about, they're tied to both of those. Yes.

And I think you, I read something once which really stuck in my mind, which said that talking about being in the land in the Old Testament is a little bit like talking about being in Christ in the New Testament. Like your whole identity as God's child rests on you being part of this family line existing in this land. Yeah, yeah, it's so true. Like when Abram and Sarai, didn't, it's not as though it was conditional that in order to receive these promises, they had to

leave everything and go to this land. It's that God made the promises, but the promises were going to be fulfilled in the land. And so there was no way to stay back and receive the promises. so faith was going into this, not knowing where they were going and going there to receive the promises, to receive the generations, to receive the land. And I love that though, that idea. How did you say that again? Like being in the land was like being in Christ. Yeah. And so this Kinsman Redeemer, his role is to

Shannon Popkin (06:57.01)
is to guard the integrity of that. So he's like some sort of male relative, like your closest male relative is kind of responsible for these things. And then here it seems like it's getting mixed up with another law in Deuteronomy, I think it's Deuteronomy 25, which talks about the lever at marriage, which at that point doesn't seem to be connected with the idea of kinsman-redeemer, but it's kind of connected here of...

if you are married and the man dies, then his brother would marry the widow. Again, to protect her, to look after her, but also to keep her in the family. And then if she has a child, like her first child, the new husband kind of counts as the son of the first husband. Like think of the branches of the family tree. So this is fruit for that Exactly. So that the family line continues is that same idea of

this kind of inheritance in the land with the family from starting from Abraham is kind of how that that's kind of how they make sense of who they are in relation to God and relation to each other. Yeah, you know, we just have to realize we see each other. We see ourselves so much more individualistically in our culture. They did not. They'd started like I've heard that in the Middle East when someone asks, like even I think your ID, it starts with your family name and then you're like it starts. It's you think first.

When you introduce yourself there, you don't start with, I'm Shannon, here's what I do. You start with that. I'm from this family and this is what my family does. It's like, that's just the way that you identify yourself. And so to be redeemed by a kinsman redeemer is to, for everything to be put back right. Everything that has been lost, everything that has all of the sorrows, all of the missteps, you know, it's all being put back right. And that, mean,

I just think of the girls reading your book, Katie, and the boys. Like, what a compelling, beautiful image that an outsider who has no hope and has someone who's not very wise looking out for her, you know, you know, these girls that are in your youth group, might not have believing families. They might have done things that are rash and unwise and yet, look, she's got someone looking out for her. Isn't that so? I feel like that's what every young girl wants.

Shannon Popkin (09:20.294)
Don't you? just want for someone. It's like that's our dreams of marriage and family. It's like we want to be protected. We want someone watching out for us, looking, caring for us. mean, yes, there's the romantic love, but there's more than that. And what are you thinking as you write this book? What are you trying to capture for the sake of these girls for their hearts? Yeah. I mean, I think it's, it's about Jesus really, isn't it? You know, I mean, yes, like we, we all want.

materially or kind of socially, want those protections and those that belonging. And I think that's really that's how God designed us. But also, think, you know, I just think Boaz and this whole whole story just points to points to the Lord Jesus in who is our redeemer. Right. And who and it's almost like this story gives us a language to understand Jesus better. It does.

It's not that it's only about Jesus. It's about God, it's about God's kindness, it's about lots of things. It's about Ruth and Boaz too. about Ruth and Boaz, it's about Naomi, it's about so many things. But Jesus is our Redeemer and with Him we are safe. Yes, we are. Someone was saying to me the other day, singleness doesn't make sense unless you have Jesus. Maybe you'd argue with that. But I think there's truth in that, in that when you're

You have Jesus, he gives you that belonging, that safety that you need. And I'm really struck by how actually at the end of the story, Obed, who's the child that Ruth and Boaz has, he's described as a redeemer for Naomi.

And it's, talks about, yeah. And it's, it's, and it even says Naomi has a son or a son has been born to Naomi. And you're like, what? I don't, I understand. But I realized it's the same. It's the same phrasing as in Isaiah nine, where it says unto us, a child is born. So it's this plural. And it's the same in Luke. Is it Luke two with the shepherds where the angels say, a child has been born for you. And so like even apart from the, the romantic.

Shannon Popkin (11:31.226)
side of things and the marriage side of things. There's this child who was born into the world for the express purpose of being our Redeemer, keeping us safe, putting things back to how they were or how they should be, bringing us into an eternal home. so, like you're saying, when you make those rash decisions or you carry this weight of shame or guilt, which so many...

people of any age, I guess particularly young people I think do. think you can have this almost like disproportionate heaviness to something that you've done. There's nothing that can't be repaired and that won't be repaired in the new creation. That's beautiful. And I think this story is just such a wonderful picture of things coming full circle for all of the characters and for Naomi herself, who has had this crazy roller coaster.

life. And I think I can imagine she would have been feeling like, you know, she's kind of cut out of the family in a way. You she's lost her husband, she's lost her sons. She doesn't have a that close protective family unit kind of thing. Yeah, she gets welcomed into. welcomed into. This is for her as much as it's for It is. And I guess that's what so in verse 10 when he says, Boaz says this kindness is greater than that which you showed before. He's previously talked about

Ruth's kindness to Naomi, her loyalty to her. She's stuck with Naomi instead of going after, actually instead of going after marriage. Even though that makes no sense for Ruth, she's got this kindness, the same as Boaz's kindness and this generosity and this loyalty. And actually going after Boaz, although yes, it's crazy in some ways, it also makes sense because he's related to Naomi and so...

by marrying Boaz, Naomi kind of gets brought in as well in a way that maybe she wouldn't if she had married some other person. so, you know, Naomi's looking at the ruins of her life and she's thinking, I made so many wrong turns. I messed up so many times. And yet at the end, you know, and I've lost so much as well. And at the end, she has this child in her arms and she's home. Right. She's home. She's inside.

Shannon Popkin (13:52.658)
You know, again, I think culturally we don't get how significant it is for her to hold this baby and that this child is for her. Like it's, it's like everything has been redeemed. All the lost and the brokenness. And that, think that's so true that in Jesus, that is true for us as well. You know, it's like, our hope, these promises given to Abram and Sarai and then extending to the Israelites, they're all pointing to Jesus. All of it is pointing to Jesus. And we look back on the cross. And so,

in the same way that they were in God's people, we're in God's people. And we have this future hope of everything being put back right, everything being redeemed, all of the missteps, all of the losses, you know, everything in heaven one day when Christ makes all things new. And so as Naomi's holding this baby, it's like this child is for her. We can think of Jesus in that manger saying this child is for us. He redeems everything back.

For us, I love that you brought up the Christmas story, like unto you a child is born, unto you collectively. Unto I think, yeah, and I think this, for me, was like this story makes sense of that story in a way that I hadn't seen before. I love that. That like, know, unto you a child is born, yeah, sure. You you kind of think, okay, yeah, like it's nice that the shepherds are having this message, whatever. But when you realize this kind of cultural thing of.

of what it means for a child to be born for somebody. That isn't just a throwaway line. That exists as a category. There's fruit on that brittle branch of the family tree. Yeah. And so that must have resonated so much.

in those times in a way that maybe it doesn't for us. don't understand. So you're right. Yeah, there's these parallels. I love that you've brought this all out. So Katie, like all of these things are so compelling and so beautiful that you've brought out. Help us bring it home. How do we live like all of these things are true? Like how would you encapsulate that? I mean, I don't know if you can encapsulate it in one sentence. I think this story makes me brave, braver. How so?

Shannon Popkin (16:07.448)
I think because when you have that deep sense of safety in the Lord, he is Boaz in this situation. He is always the person that you can run to, even when you've been a complete fool. And actually, even when... I love that Ruth...

Like I was saying, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't follow the conventional path. goes, know, Naomi says to her at the beginning of the story, you should go back, you should go back and start again. You should not come It makes no sense for you to come with It's very unconventional. It's very unconventional. And I think sometimes we, you know, there's a real safety and convention, isn't there? Following the rules, you know, doing what people, what everyone else does. Christianity is very upstream. Yeah. It's very unconventional. Yeah. Yeah.

We live in a world that is set up with a whole different set of rules and... Exactly, exactly. I think, and you know, and even looking at this story and you think, what must Ruth have been thinking as she goes to this threshing floor and lies down, you know, is she on board with Naomi's intentions? Does she not know what Naomi's intentions are? Maybe those aren't Naomi's intentions, we don't know. What does she think is gonna happen?

And I feel like we have so many times in our lives when we're like, I just don't know. I don't know what to do. I don't know what's wise. You know, I feel like I'm going to make a bad decision here and we can be paralyzed by that. Or we kind of take refuge in, well, this is what's normal. And so I'll just do that. But I think when you see how Boaz responds and when you know how Jesus responds to us, can be courageous.

And in that courageous, I don't think it's centered on what we do and how us, it's like, I can be courageous because I know there's someone looking out for me. Right? Yes. Yeah. That we're safe, you know, and that God is kind. And I once, read something somewhere about decision making said, make every decision on your knees because you are going to make bad decisions sometimes. Sometimes you're to make good decisions. And I feel like sometimes we can

Shannon Popkin (18:27.318)
we can make decisions by like, we like, say, Lord, please make me wise. Please give me wisdom. And then we think really, really hard about what the decision should be. And then we make the decision. And like, that's like, there's nothing wrong with that. That's great. But sometimes you, even if you've asked the Lord for wisdom, you don't know what to do. And sometimes you just have to go for something. But we can do that on our knees saying, Lord, save me. Save me from my own foolishness. You know, make the best thing happen. Make what you want happen.

Because we have the savior who we can just trust 100 % to the hilt. I'm thinking of like dating apps, you know? Like I have a lot of young adults in my life and like dating apps and trying to decide is it wise, is it not wise? Or like, is it, you know, should I do this person? Right. Should I on another date? I? Yeah. All of those things. And like trying to be wise. Of course you want to be wise. Even if you're not, you're safe under the.

Yes, exactly. Even if you're not, you're safe. And of course we want to grow in wisdom and we want to, you know, we want to learn. want to be, uh, we want to be faithful. But we, yeah, yeah. Like we were saying, the Lord can cope with us making the can cope with it. And I think the opposite of courage, being courageous is having this anxiety and holding back and just being frozen, paralyzed in our fear. And so like,

That's not what God wants for us. He wants us to be courageous and to trust him to step out and just walk in faith. You know, I mean, that's that is Ruth. Every step of the way here, she's left everything behind, you know, her everything that she knows. She's gone. She's an outsider. She goes like Naomi tells her to this threshing full. She's she's yeah, she's been very courageous. But the ultimate savior in this story is God and his providence or his people welcoming her in. Yes.

Yes. Well, okay. Last question. We've gone a little long here. Listeners, thank you for sticking with us, but it's such a rich conversation. It's Is there a way that you've lived like the story's true? Ooh, good question. Well, I hope so. Yeah, I think, I guess it's just, it's trying to make those decisions wisely. know, I think the convention thing is one.

Shannon Popkin (20:53.718)
that I've thought about a lot. So I'm single, not married, no children. My sister's not Christian. She's like, why don't you just, you you just need to buy a house, you need to find a husband, and just settle down. Like, that's what you should do. That's how life works. You know, and sometimes I kind of struggle with that, and I think, well, maybe that is what I should do. know, wouldn't that be nice? Wouldn't that be nice?

And we wouldn't criticize you for it. And like that would be a totally completely legitimate thing for me to pursue. But this story reminds me that there's it's okay if those things don't happen. And it's okay if like, you know, I think as a single person, you can feel like there's no roadmap. You know, like everybody else has this path that they're following through their life. And you as a single person, like what do do? You you don't have this pattern for life that other people are following. But that's fine.

I guess what we see in this story is that Ruth and Boaz both have this faith in the Lord and this kindness, both of them. I don't think either of them really are making plans in this story. Naomi is, but I don't think either of them She's scheming, but... Yeah, they're just trusting.

And they're just thinking, how can I be generous here? How can I be faithful here? mean, it's not as though they're passively staying in bed until noon. You know, they're out working, they're their lives, but they're just taking one step after another, trusting that God will provide, that He will lead, that He will direct. Yes. Yeah. And so I think I just really love the story as, I love that it's a story where they do get the conventional happy ever after story, but also that they get that by this

by this route of unconventional practice. Yeah, exactly. by not by pursuing that actually in some ways, but by, by, by trusting the Lord and seeking him. That's so good. And so I, yeah, I think this, I actually think weirdly, this is a great story of people who don't have children and don't have a

Shannon Popkin (23:03.192)
a family, you know, married. agree. I agree. Even though you'd think, but it ends with her getting married and having a child. Like, surely that's really discouraging for those people. I just think there's so much beauty for people who are maybe on a less conventional path. Well, and I think, you know, I'm thinking of your readers. They're not married. They're young girls. Exactly. You know? Yeah. And they're looking forward to their lives and they're thinking, what am I going to do? What path am I going to follow? Right.

This is why role models are so important because so much of the time, you can only really see what you can see. You can only copy what you see people doing. That's why people so often follow the professions of their parents, right? Because they see that. And I think this story enables girls and boys to see maybe another way of doing things. What are you dreaming of? What are you hoping for?

I think of young girls, are you picturing your wedding and how everything should play out or are you picturing this adventurous life of God leading you and you don't know what the next page will hold but you know that you have someone who's writing the story and he's written you in and then it's going to be, it's allowing you to be a courageous participant in a story where you're not the center. It's about something bigger than you, more fulfilling than what you could come up with on your own.

I think that's a very compelling, very compelling idea for girls and for all of us. all of us, yeah. And I think also just that thing of being, you know, of belonging. You know, she's an outsider. She has no right to belong. And I think girls, young people so often feel that, you know, they're thrown into a new situation all the time. You know, they've moved schools or they move to, either they go to college or whatever it is.

I think when you're young, you can very easily feel like you don't belong. But here we see, you know, there's nothing that can stop you from belonging to Christ. There's absolutely nothing that can stop you from belonging to Him. And I think that just gives you like a bedrock for your life that is second to none. Yeah. I interviewed another girl named Gabby who is 27 at the time and going through cancer treatments and dreams of having a family and hasn't found anyone that she's

Shannon Popkin (25:24.66)
interested in marrying yet and is on medication for the next 10 years that will make her sterile. And so she sees her opportunities closing, right? And yet she was telling me about these verses that she read, written in Isaiah, I think Isaiah 56 written to the eunuchs and where God is saying, I have a family for you. And in me there, you'll have more children than, you know,

fruitful woman and just sit at my table and there will be fellowship and belonging in this family, in this place and it's all, know, everything is already redeemed and just how much that meant to her, know, those verses meant to her and it's true, it's true for all of us. And so thank you so much for sharing your life and sharing this book, sharing this beautiful story with me today. And so I want to encourage everyone to get the book.

for themselves, the young woman in their life, the girl. So tell us the title and where they can find it. Yes, it's called The Outsider. You can find it on Amazon, on the Good Book Company website, anywhere else where you're going to buy a great Christian book. We love The Good Book Company. Thank you so much, Katie, for all that you