#112- How to Stop the Burnout Train in Midlife with Dr. Leigha Saunders, ND

If you’ve been around for a while, you’ll recognize today’s guest and know you’re in for a real treat. Sleep expert Dr. Leigha Saunders ND is back to help us make the connection between sleep and burnout-a very common experience in midlife.

As we dive into the challenges of parenting, caregiving, and the never-ending cycle of stress and sleep struggles, we'll help you spot the early signs of burnout—because knowing is half the battle to keeping it at bay.

Dr. Leigha will help us recognize the signs of over-functioning and when we’re confusing our worth with our productivity. We discuss why preventing burnout starts with practicing the art of saying no and allowing our personal values to drive our decision-making! I invite you to intentionally avoid your to-do list and listen to this episode instead!

To learn more about Dr. Leigha Saunders and her work, check out her website at ​​www.leighasaundersnd.com and follow her on IG @drleighasaundersnd.

Links Mentioned: 

#22: Why Sleep is So Elusive
#62  How to 'Do Less" & 'Be More'
#71: Sleep Solutions in Midlife

Get on the waitlist for September's Beyond The Scale Un-Dieting & Intuitive Eating Group
Program: https://www.menopausenutritionist.ca/undietyourlife

Looking for more about midlife, menopause nutrition, and intuitive eating? Click here to grab one of my free resources and learn what I've got "on the menu" including my 1:1 and group programs. https://www.menopausenutritionist.ca/links

Transcript

Jenn Salib Huber: 0:00

Hi and welcome to the Midlife Feast, the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, dr Jenn Salib-Huber. I'm an intuitive eating dietitian and naturopathic doctor and I help women manage menopause without dieting and food rules. Come to my table, listen and learn from me trusted guest experts in women's health and interviews with women just like you. Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife. And if you're looking for more information about menopause, nutrition and intuitive eating, check out the Midlife Feast Community, my monthly membership that combines my no-nonsense approach that you all love to nutrition with community, so that you can learn from me and others who can relate to the cheers and challenges of midlife. Hi everyone, welcome to this week's episode of the Midlife Feast.

Jenn Salib Huber: 0:53

Before I introduce or I should say, reintroduce my guest, dr Leah Saunders, who many of you will probably recognize, she's been on the podcast twice talking about sleep. She has been a guest expert in the Midlife Feast community a couple of times talking about hormones and sleep and all things midlife and menopause, but this discussion is a little different. So if you were thinking, oh, this is just another sleep talk, believe me when I say that sleep is the least of the things that we talked about, because we had a really, I think, important discussion about burnout, and we've talked about burnout on this podcast before, but this time we're talking about it in the context of over-functioning. We're talking about what you can do to maybe prevent it or how you can put a plan in place so that you don't get to the edges of burnout. And I think it's really important because, as you know, most of the time when we're talking about burnout, we have this idea in our mind of it's when people just collapse, it's when you get to the point of I can't do anything else anymore, so I'm just burnt out. But it's so much more than that, and I think it's a conversation that we need to have a lot more of, and I'm glad that Leah and I started this one. So have a listen and check the show notes, because Leah has shared some resources with us, and let's stop this burnout train.

Jenn Salib Huber: 2:21

Hi, dr Leah, welcome back for the third time. Thanks so much for having me, jen. So we've talked about sleep in detail before. You've also been a guest in the Midlife Feast community, which has been amazing, and I'm excited to dive into today's topic, which is a slight kind of offshoot of just sleep, but it's the connection between sleep and burnout and, you know, as much as we can, relating it to midlife, because that's the stage that most of my audience is in. It's funny because we know that not getting enough sleep, you know, doesn't help us cope, doesn't help us deal with the things that we need to deal with, help us deal with the things that we need to deal with. And we also know that stress and the demands of life can affect our sleep. So it's kind of a chicken and an egg situation for so many people, because I hear it all the time I know I need to get more sleep, but I have so much to do, and vice versa. So it's not just me that's noticing that. Right, it is a two-way street.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 3:24

It's such a two-way street, such a bi-directional relationship, absolutely.

Jenn Salib Huber: 3:29

All right, so what? Well, let's just define, like, what is burnout Cause it's a word that gets thrown out around a lot, but what? What actually is burnout?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 3:38

Yeah, great question. And this will catch a lot of people, I think, by surprise at time, because we think of burnout as like just feeling really tired and you're kind of done and you need a weekend to recover and be like okay, that was a tough week, I really had to grind through it. I'm feeling a bit burnt out, all will be good next week I'll get back on track. But really in and of itself, when we look at somebody who is in a clinical stage of burnout and it's also important to note and preface like there's no test, there's no diagnostic tests that we can objectively administer, and and look at and say to someone's like yes, you are in burnout. It's more of a clinical picture in terms of really feeling fatigued and exhausted. So you're just like really dragging and feeling like you have to push yourself and for a lot of my patients and I'll share my own experience with burnout like this can feel like waking up in the morning, regardless of how well you slept or not, and just feeling like this, like sense of dread, and there's often a lot of emotions that come through and I was chatting with someone yesterday who was saying like I just couldn't get myself out of bed yesterday and I just woke up and wanted to cry. So those emotions in relation to that physical exhaustion, energy depletion, is often the first thing that people might notice or attribute is like, ooh, something's wrong.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 4:58

And then we'll see that there's this like increased distance or feeling of accomplishment or appreciation. We start to become like resentful or have this almost altered perception of how well we might be performing with our work in particular and when we use work. If we can apply that to so many different areas, yes, it might be a professional job, but it might also mean the work that you do as a parent be a professional job, but it might also mean the work that you do as a parent. It might be the work that you do as a child for your aging parents and caregiver burnout is a very real thing. So we can apply that to more than one aspect.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 5:35

And with that it's like you're feeling tired. You're feeling this like increased negativity and kind of like resentment or cynicism towards the work that you're doing. And then you start to really question if you're making a difference. And that is is where it's like really wears down on your spirit and your soul, cause you're like I'm working so hard, I'm doing all the things, you know, you're depleting yourself in the process and you feel like you're spinning your wheels and like you're not getting ahead and the work that you are doing is not making a difference, which then leads into the fatigue and the mental load and the overwhelm and, of course, the appreciation and how that shows up in your emotions.

Jenn Salib Huber: 6:20

Um, and mental, mental health and it's it's it's subtle, like I've been. I haven't been I don't think I've been in full burnout, but I definitely have had a few periods in my life where the people around me were like, hey, we need to talk because you're not yourself, you're not coping with things the way that you have before. We can see that you're feeling stressed and anxious and, as a type a over-performing, overachieving person, my first reaction was what are you talking about? You're crazy, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine and I'm like waking up at three in the morning and thinking about all the things and like you were just saying, like, spinning my wheels, um, feeling like I'm never getting anything done in there, it really just felt like quicksand that I was trying not to fall into, like I was trying to walk on water. But it really took other people and thankfully I have lots of people who know me and love me who were like, hey, wait a minute, we got to talk.

Jenn Salib Huber: 7:26

Um, and it was interesting because the time that's most recent that I remember was actually in late perimenopause, which you know in hindsight was late perimenopause. It was in the middle of our international move and like the six months leading up to the move and the few months after, like it honestly felt like I was going to crack open. And it wasn't just stress, it really was burnout from having running a business for so long. And then the move and everything you know. And it wasn't, it wasn't subtle, and yet it was like in hindsight I can really clearly see it. But in the moment I think it's really challenging for us to separate out societal patriarchal expectations of what women's work is from clinical conditions of anxiety and stress and perimenopause. And when it all comes crashing together, it's a hot mess. Right together it's a hot mess right, absolutely.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 8:24

I would totally agree with that, all of that and say in hindsight as well, looking back through even as I shared on the podcast before and many times, my initial sleep struggle, now that I've experienced and really feel like I'm coming out of another episode of burnout, I'm like, was that first one like an F, like an um, an iteration, let's call it? Or maybe, like you know, you're just like in it a little bit, but you are still at a place where you have enough coping skills, mechanisms, supports, resiliency that, even with a younger, at younger age, right, like your body is able to respond to stress differently when you are younger, compared to as we get older and as our hormones change and as our stress load increases. And so I 100% agree with looking back and being like I didn't think that at the time, but now, retrospectively, it's quite possible. I didn't think that at the time, but now, retrospectively, it's quite possible and it has all. It also took someone else to me more recently to say like I think you're in burnout. I was a therapist and I was like, okay, oh, like it was a total blind spot. And we do that because we just find ourselves in survival mode, right, we are like doing the best that we can.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 9:47

We are absolutely most likely operating in perhaps like old conditioning or conditioning that comes from like younger experiences or younger parts of ourselves, where we just focus on what has to get done to prove ourselves, to get to the next thing, to accomplish the next thing, to make it happen, and that at times is like very necessary.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 10:08

We have to engage those mechanisms to get forward or meet a deadline or, you know, meet the obligations and responsibilities that we have in our life that are very real, but when that continues to happen on an ongoing basis and if you've been, like you said, lying awake at 3am with all the thoughts in your head or like feeling like the only time you get a break from those thoughts and that rumination is when you are asleep and when all you know how to do or think about is work again using that term more broadly in relation to it Like if it's all consuming, I think those are some really important pieces for people to consider and, with curiosity and kindness and self-compassion, to say like, oh, you know what this is like hitting me in a different place, and I remember hearing the definition.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 10:58

And I remember hearing the definition, the three criteria of burnout before and um, I was like oh, again, it's like me. I didn't, I didn't even know, I didn't even like realize like I was, those things were starting to creep in, and so it often does take that external perspective, so this is resonating with you. Then you can bring it inward and say like, oh, might I be feeling these things and how might like, how might these things be impacting me, and and how I'm feeling and how I'm managing and, of course, how I'm sleeping yeah.

Jenn Salib Huber: 11:30

so what is the connection with sleep? So, because a lot of people will say, oh, when I was in burnout I just slept all the time. I know that when I was creeping into burnout I slept less because I had a harder time falling asleep, staying asleep, which was probably kind of mixed in with perimenopause, but what's the relationship with it? And does not getting enough increase, like the risk that we're going to? Does it affect our coping?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 11:59

not getting enough increase, like the risk that we're going to. Does it affect our coping? Yeah, for sure. So if we think about how sleep impacts our nervous system as a whole like when we get great, consolidated sleep that is not interrupted, nice and deep, it's restorative our nervous system is going to be able to regulate more effectively and efficiently, so we'll wake up with lower baseline levels of cortisol. We'll be able to regulate more effectively and efficiently. So we'll wake up with lower baseline levels of cortisol.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 12:21

We'll be able to initiate a normal stress response throughout the day and that will show up as you being able to respond to stress instead of being like reactive or jumpy or anxious, and then, through our sleep, that typically will allow us to then, even later that day or night, fall asleep easily and stay asleep and wake up feeling rested. And so if we are, it's almost chicken and the egg, like you said, like go, go, go, really pushing ourselves in the day. If that's the thing that happens first and there's no space for us to decompress our thoughts, feelings and emotions, if we are always in the going and the doing and skipping meals and not balancing our blood sugar, if we lack the time for movement and if we're in the throes of a hormone change as well, like PMS or perimenopause menopause, then all of those things are going to impact our ability to get good sleep and then create this vicious cycle, because if our sleep is shortened so if it's less than seven hours on average, if it's broken and not consolidated, if you're not getting adequate deep sleep, then you're going to wake up in the morning and have a higher baseline level of cortisol. So now you're like buzzing as you go through the day and smaller stressors are going to seem bigger to you. So your perceived strength, sense of stress, is going to be magnified and amplified and that has such a as I think most people can appreciate the great impact on their sleep and not the way that we want.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 13:48

And so in terms of like, whether you're sleeping a lot or finding it difficult to sleep, I would probably say there's so many more things we would have to dive into, because when we look at something like clinical depression, which is again a clinical diagnosis, there's perhaps a little bit like easier, more standardized ways to make assessments, for that often what happens in depression with sleep is there's an increased sleep drive, there's an increased sleepiness, there's an increased desire to sleep. There's an increased amount of sleep that people will be getting compared to something like anxiety or, um, stress. Really, whether or not you meet the clinical diagnostics for anxiety, there tends to be a decreased ability or a negative impact on sleep. So we'll see that people with anxiety will tend to have lower levels of total sleep time and more fragmented sleep and things like that.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 14:41

So really, it's going to depend where you're at.

Jenn Salib Huber: 14:45

I mean, like you're going to have people who have all three and then you're going to have, you know, people who have any combination. So let's talk a little bit about burnout prevention, because I know, for me that was kind of like top of like. The first time I think I was like hinging on burnout. I couldn't do anything about it, cause it was just related to having like three very young children, um, including a set of twins, and it was just life that was burning me out, right, and there was. I couldn't do anything about that.

Jenn Salib Huber: 15:13

But what I really took away from the last time was okay, I need to put steps in place that this doesn't happen again. And so it's really when I started shifting my self-care to be my top priority. So you know, I describe it as like putting my oxygen mask on first. There's some like non-negotiables now in my self-care that you know. I know that I need to do so. When it comes to prevention, are there things that we can do when it's not externally caused or kind of. You know, you don't have a major external contributor, or even, I guess, if you do, like what are some of the things that?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 15:48

we can do. Yeah, I would really think about this as like, even if you have that external contributor and we can't shift it that much right, like, say, you have an aging parent who you're caring for and that's a role that you have to be in right now, or if work is stressful and there's not much of an opportunity to switch that around, those kinds of things you can appreciate. So there's almost like a how do we recover from burnout if the burnout has happened and that stressor is resolved, as well? As how do we support ourselves in continuing if we find ourselves at teetering or in the midst of burnout and needing to rebuild ourselves back up? And the first thing is really working with our beliefs and our mindset, like you said, and creating awareness around where, where did, where did all of the action lead to, right To get us to where we are, and what were the beliefs driving that action? And so this can be so fascinating to me, because it's on such like a deep level for so many people that we don't even realize that we value productivity so highly. It becomes toxic and then we, like, push ourselves to do more and be more and produce more, because when we were younger we were like appreciated or acknowledged or awarded for, you know, getting the good grades or being the quiet well, like performed girl in school, and then we carry all of those things through to then try to get attention and awards and appreciation from other people, but we end up over-functioning.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 17:26

And I see this so often in the women that I work with and we talk about it in terms of they're like I'm just doing it all or I've been taking care of everyone and everything else for the past five, 10, 15 years. And they find themselves in this, in this dynamic, in personal and professional roles, where they take on more because they find it maybe difficult to ask for help or receive help, because they saw in growing up it's like a strong woman doesn't need a man. Or just like go through and right and or like prove yourself to like you. Life is hard, work is hard, prove yourself Like you're a girl, you can do anything. But then we've internalized that message as we can do anything, so we have to do everything. And so then we start like doing more and more and more.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 18:15

And if our partner at work or at home does something, they don't do it to the degree that we like, and so then we criticize them and then they stop trying because they're like, well, if I do it, you don't even like I don't do it right. And then you're like, I'll do it anyways. And so then, like there's just this whole vicious cycle in which then you do it all because it's you think it's easier or it's faster. You don't trust anybody else to do it in the same way, and we just want to control the outcomes of a certain task or responsibility, and we just struggle to release the reins because we want to be the ones in control. And so I think that piece is like when you can again bring like curiosity and self-compassion to that and be like, ooh, I have been like white, knuckling it over here, trying to control it and do it all. So it's, you know, quote, unquote, perfect.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 19:09

And actually that's not working for me, because I'm burning out and I can't do it all. I can't overextend myself anymore because I have nothing left for me, I have nothing left for my partner, nothing left for my kids, and it doesn't allow you, when you over-function, to actually be in your zone of genius and be doing the thing that you want to be doing to your highest capability and level, and so I can think of one patient in particular. We're having this conversation and talking about her over functioning and this like masculine feminine dynamic, and she was like we were exploring how she could alter this in her relationship with her husband and kids, and her husband wanted to help her husband's like. I'm absolutely. What can I do to support you? I want to help you feel good and have like for us to have more balance together and for us to feel happier, more connected as a family, and so the solutions are so often there in front of us.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 20:07

We tend to sometimes be again blinded to them or a bit resistant to them, and so that piece of looking at your beliefs, being willing to unpack the conditioning which is the work that I love doing with women and understanding why our actions have, why we are in that action pattern, and then we can say, okay, is that actually working for us?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 20:34

And if it is no longer working for you and no longer serving for you, we get to create a new pattern and a new belief of I'm so much more valuable than my level of productivity.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 20:44

It doesn't mean you have to quit your job, but it means you don't have to like say yes to everything. Or, as another patient was like, oh yeah, when I'm not on call, I tell the people who are on call, oh, if you need anything, just like, give me a call. And what ends up happening? They give her a call or they send her a message. Whereas if we and what we worked on was like okay, if you take a step back and just say you're on call tonight, great, I'm unavailable, do you have all the resources you need? And then that allows that person who's on call as an example to step up to their fullest capability and perform, and it also allows her to disengage and recover so that when she comes back to work she can give to her fullest capability and performance level. And so if we aren't aware of those beliefs first, and if we aren't clear on where we might need to put in some boundaries, we're always going to be overextending ourselves and over-functioning.

Jenn Salib Huber: 21:45

Yeah, the over-functioning really, I know will resonate because it's it's something that I'm hearing a lot and I can relate to it too. Just the like I can do it best, I can do it easiest. It will help others if I do it, cause I can do it fast, whatever it is. And then, yeah, you just end up taking on everything. And we haven't even really talked about the mental load of you know especially, you know, women in relationships of being the person who does the organizing, the planning, the thinking, the you know, all of that stuff. So, I mean, there is a lot, but learning to drop some balls is hard, like it is hard when you have a pattern of over-functioning that goes back decades and of being the person that people expect to over-function and someone's just like, oh yeah, just let the balls that bounce drop. It is hard.

Jenn Salib Huber: 22:41

One of the things that I had to start doing was asking myself what will happen if I say no, or what will happen if I don't do this? That was my reality check. To be like, oh, no one's going to die, okay, we're good, I can say no. Or what will happen if I don't do this? That was my reality check. To be like, oh, no, one's going to die, okay, we're good I can say no to this, because I really needed that reality check Cause I was just such a like, yeah, I'm going to do it. Of course I'll do it, because that's all I knew.

Jenn Salib Huber: 23:03

So how can? What advice do you have to somebody who is an over-functioning person in however they show up in the world is also in burnout, on the verge of burnout, and it's really struggling with saying no. Because saying no, I feel like, is like step number one, because you have to take things off your plate. You can't just keep piling on. You can't learn to deal with more stress, like that's often what I see is people like, oh, I'm having such a hard time, I need, I need help dealing with stress, but they're just looking to be able to deal with more. They're not actually like seeing that they need to take away.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 23:37

Yeah, absolutely. And you can ask yourself I think this is a really important checkpoint is does this have to be done, period? Like you said, what will happen if I don't do this? Does this have to be done by me? And does this have to be done by me? And does this have to be done by me right now? So those three questions are so powerful, so I'll repeat them does this have to get done, period? Because we can create so many stories around like what has to happen? Does this have to be done by me and does this have to be done by me right now? And that is a really powerful way to filter through what you are going to say yes or no to.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 24:18

One of the other most powerful reference points I've learned through my own exploration and personal development and coaching is a reference to boundaries, and the reference was to say when you are inclined to do something and you're not sure, like you know, you have that feeling inside and you're like do I say yes to this? Do I say no? I kind of want to say no, but I'll feel bad, or I feel like I have to do this. The filter to apply is if you say yes or if you go ahead with doing the thing. Is it because you are feeling so full with love and energy and capacity that you're like, yes, I want to give this thing to this person or engage in this action or work because it's like an extension of me and I'm doing it out of love for this person or my work?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 25:12

Or are you trying to do something out of getting love from a person or relationship or work, like dynamic? And when I heard that my psyche I was like okay, I hear you and it's so true, though it's like are you doing it because it's actually aligned for you and you're so excited and you're like, yes, this is this feels right. Or are you like, ooh, if I do this and I'm going to get you know the love, attention, appreciation, maintain the connection, I'm not going to upset them, I'm not going to inconvenience them, and that those are the eggshells that we're always walking on. And if we are always walking on them, that's when we at some point will then teeter into full burnout if we're not careful.

Jenn Salib Huber: 26:03

Yeah, oh my gosh. So, like that just had like a whole bunch of things just went off in my head as we were talking about that, because one of the gifts of midlife and I've said this before is that your ability to do the things that you don't want to do just goes. And this is where I think there's a lot of resistance and inner conflict between I've always wanted to be this over-functioning person that everyone can rely on and do things, but now I don't want to, and that everyone can rely on and do things, but now I don't want to, and I'm feeling burnt out and I want to change, but don't know how. So, like that question of like am I doing this for me or am I doing this for someone else's approval? I think is a fantastic, fantastic tool to be able to just kind of say, okay, it is time to let that shit go.

Jenn Salib Huber: 26:52

Now is the time? Well, at any time really. But because the conversations I have generally are happening after 40 for most people, it's often this like I just don't want to do it anymore. What's wrong with me? There's nothing wrong with you.

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 27:04

Yeah, I think it's a beautiful unveiling that happens of like such a decreased level of tolerance for what no longer serves you and really having an opportunity to step into and move closer to your truest, most authentic self, and that, to me, is so exciting.

Jenn Salib Huber: 27:24

It is. It is, oh my gosh. This has been an amazing conversation. For anybody who kind of wants to build on the sleep stuff, we have two episodes that we're going to put in the show notes, but if people want to learn more about how to work with you and what they can learn from you, what's the best place for them to learn about that?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 27:44

Yeah, Well, I'm very active on Instagram so we can connect there. I'm sure you'll link me up. It's easy to find me and we can link there. I'm sure you'll link me up.

Jenn Salib Huber: 27:58

It's easy to find me and we can link my website in which you can move through a quick discovery session video and, if you feel so, called to apply to work together. Amazing, um. Thank you so much for your time and if you're up to answering it for the third time, what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife? Third time, what do you think is the missing ingredient in midlife?

Dr. Leigha Saunders: 28:16

I forgot that question and I didn't warn you. I know the missing ingredient. What I hear so many women say and in the in the line of recovering from and really working to move beyond burnout, I would say is full permission to experience joy and pleasure in ways that light you up, that fill your heart and let your soul up. And what I see so often in the women who I work with also, who are mostly in midlife, and they come in so exhausted and burnt out and depleted from taking care of everyone else and they're not even sure what brings them joy or what's fun for them, and I always just extend them a massive permission slip to say it's okay to find the thing, play with the thing, figure out what you love, what brings you joy, what gets you excited, so that you can reclaim that part of you and so that you can live the second half of your life in that joyous, expansive, really excited state as you're letting go of what no longer serves you and really moving to include what. What does so.

Jenn Salib Huber: 29:34

I love it. I love it. Thank you once again so much for spending this time with us and have a great day. Thanks, jen. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the midlife feast for more non-diet, health, hormone and general midlife support. Click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me. And if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, please consider leaving a review or subscribing, because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife.