Behind the scenes - Mark Hartnett-Morgan - Co-Founder of ATHX Games

This week, John and Adam sit down with Mark, founder of ATHX Games.

Mark shares his journey from running an event for a supplement company to the spark that inspired NFG, and how that eventually evolved into ATHX. We dig into what it means to build a brand in the hybrid fitness space, how ATHX differentiates from the competition, and the challenge of staying credible for podium athletes while remaining genuinely accessible for first-timers.

We talk about the recent Miami event, where athletes from CrossFit and Hyrox backgrounds competed head to head, and Mark's vision for ATHX as a proving ground where different training methodologies can stack up against each other. He breaks down the strategic thinking behind scaling from a handful of European events to eleven-plus in a single year, the operational model making that possible, and what a move into the US market might look like.

The conversation also covers ATHX's four-year global partnership with Adidas — how supportive they've been, their intent behind the deal, and their growing involvement in fitness competitions and fitness racing. We explore the expanding affiliate model and how ATHX supports its gym network, plus the Uptivo partnership and the AI-driven data insights competitors can take away from every event to feed directly into their training.

A brilliant conversation packed with insight into what it really takes to build and scale a global fitness event from the ground up.

Compete in an ATHX event: https://athxgames.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello everyone, welcome back to the Europe Is Coming podcast. And today we have another behind the scenes episode. And this week we are joined by Mark from Athex. Hi Mark, how are you? I'm very good, thank you. How are you guys? Very well, thank you. And I'm joined as ever by John. How are you, John? What's been going on? Good.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Um, you know, the sun has come to Majorca, which is nice. So uh sort of feeling that spring vibe.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Yeah, we've actually got a bit in the UK, believe it or not, as well, which has been quite nice. So I'm taking that very much as a positive for the week. So if you're not aware and haven't come across Mark before, Mark uh was one of the co-founders of AFEX, and uh we thought it'd be great to bring Mark on and talk about competitions. Mark for context, every week myself and John seems up talking about various comps and new comps in the in the fitness and functional fitness space. And we have lots of questions, so we we're really excited to get you on and basically ask you all of those questions as a spokesperson for competitions everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Cool, yeah. I mean, more than happy to talk through AffX and any any other competitions that that you want. Yeah, it's uh it's a pleasure to be on, guys. So yeah, looking forward to the chat.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Amazing. Can we start by just understanding a little bit of the origin story of Affects? Like everyone's got a really interesting origin story that's spoken to so far, and I'm sure there's a there's a really cool one behind AffX.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Yeah, so we've we've actually been myself, uh Ollie, and our and our fellow co-founder Simon, we've actually been running fitness events now for for eight years. Since 2023, that has been under the guise of AFEX, but before that, we actually started a business called National Fitness Games, uh, which was shortened to NFG. And where where that came about was basically I saw saw an opportunity to to create a fitness competition that that wasn't basically CrossFit, because at the time back in what 2018, 2017, all of the all of the fitness competitions were were CrossFit competitions. And whilst I, you know, I'm a member of a CrossFit box, I respect CrossFit immensely as a as a form of training and as a community. It if you don't go to a CrossFit gym, it's very, very hard to enter a CrossFit competition because certain movements just aren't practiced in in everyday gyms. You we all know what movements they are. So saw an opportunity to create something that was that that felt felt like a CrossFit competition, was structured like a CrossFit competition, but actually just didn't have any of those skill movements. So that's where NFG was born. Simon, my fellow co-founder,'s got a huge amount, you know, 30 plus years experience in the event industry. So he came on board as like the uh the events guy, and Ollie Marchon, who you guys know came on board as the programmer, and him and his team programmed those events, and and we did that for about five years, you know, enjoyed putting on the events. Like I said, they were very much run-like CrossFit events, full-day events, you'd do a workout, you'd wait an hour and a half, two hours, you'd do another workout, that type of vibe, and was going really well. Was we were enjoying it, there were challenges, as you know. Like every time you do an event like that, you're changing the workouts, you're changing the equipment, you're in different venues. A lot of the time you're in outdoor venues, and it was it was it was fun but challenging. And then high rocks came out, and we're again like fans. I think people expect me to want to hate high rocks, but I don't at all. I think it's a it's a great competition, and and I'm actually very grateful and thankful for what they've done in this space. But they showed me and they showed Ollie that actually there are there are different ways to run a fitness competition, and and so what we then decided to do was to reformat our our comp essentially, and NFG, in doing that, NFG was don't like to say killed off, but NFG was uh kind of put to aside and we created affect. And what we did with AffX is we took what we liked about Hyrocks and the things we liked, but we also took you know learned from things or or saw the opportunity in what they weren't doing to to to create affects, and that was back in 2023, and and here we are now.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

And just touching on NFG quick before we move fully into ethics, what were the big kind of learning experiences that you took from that comp? Because I imagine you had some some big kind of things that running a comp for the first time that you that you had kind of faced.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Well, when I um where the idea for NFG actually came about was I I used to work for for a protein company doing their sports marketing and their ambassador deals, and they asked me to launch um they asked me to come up with an event or a a PR event essentially that would help them launch a new protein product. And what I did, I cat I I got 20 of the PTs they work with in London, got them all to meet in a gym in London, the foundry in Vauxhall, if anyone knows it, a great gym. And I said, right, all of you bring three mates, and essentially we ran a mini fitness competition, which was them doing workouts against each other.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I was actually at that comp or one of them. Were you really? Yeah, yeah. I went with um David Burtwistle and his brother and stuff. Yeah, we did one of them, I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Oh wow, so that that is where without that we wouldn't be sat here today because I I did that event with the idea that this would just, you know, this was to launch a protein product. Within about 10 minutes, I kind of knew what my next stage in my career was going to be because the energy in that room and the the competitiveness was just was unreal. And I thought, right, actually, there's something in this. And and before then, I didn't know a huge amount about fitness competitions. And so the big thing I learned from NFG is the power of the power of competition, both from a community perspective, but also as an individual, having something on the horizon where you know that in six weeks, in eight weeks, you're going to go and do a competition in front of hundreds, if not thousands, of people, it really focuses the mind and it focuses you on your training and on your on your nutrition. So I think like like like any sport, right? I feel like having that moment can just really help people and fitness consumers with their with their overall fitness journey. So that was the the big learn I had. I think from a from an operational perspective, the big learn was that you know I don't ever want to do outdoor events ever again, even though I did one in my on Miami Beach a couple of weeks ago. But the you know, the the variables involved in running events outside, particularly fitness events, for me are just too too risky. And I think it it creates a lot of stress. And I think actually having a model like we do now and like high rocks do, where it is a lot of consistency, just makes life and and operational life in the events world a lot, lot a lot easier.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

Uh actually because we're just jumping in on that topic, obviously Wadapalooza over the over the years has had so many troubles with the outdoors, not just Wadapalooza, I'm highlighting that because of Miami, you know, the games has changed events multiple times, and and I kind of completely agree because it it just ends up changing the test of the fitness that you're trying to do. But to have a bit of understanding, is it just like a cost thing? So for like Miami Beach, having you guys put that tent, so at least you guys had a tent rather than just running around. Is it just a cost aspect of having to cover the venue?

SPEAKER_00 7:38

Yeah, I think like Miami Beach, right? You get the advantages of doing the event on the beach is you you're in this amazing location and you've got this, you know, the backdrop of South Beach is unreal. So the sexiness of doing an event on there is is is great and it's something we wanted to do, but we didn't once consider doing that without a roof. Like I I wouldn't be able to sleep for the two weeks beforehand, and I think leaving it up to the up to the gods is just too much of a risk. I I at the same time I understand why would a Palooza do it because there is a huge cost involved in it, and I think in a way, CrossFit, you know, an element of CrossFit is you know, the the unknown and you know being able to overcome obstacles and variables and stuff like that. I think as a CrossFit competition, you people you can probably get away with it a little bit more. I think what we're trying to do and what HyROCs are doing, where you have a functional fitness competition that means someone can do it in Miami and be compared to someone who's doing it in London, you just can't have that variable. You need consistent conditions, you need consistent judging, you need consistent equipment, and getting that outside, I think, is is yeah, nigh on impossible.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

You mentioned the consistency there, and that's something that kind of CrossFit has been challenged on, perhaps, is a polite way of saying it over the years by some of the the commenters in the space. What was the decision-making process to make ATX a kind of a known quantity and a repeatable quantity? How does it get back to that?

SPEAKER_00 9:14

Yeah, I think that was one of the learns we took from HyROX, right? I I I love the idea with with HyROX that you know what you're training for, and particularly as you know, more on the newbie side or the people that aren't experienced in fitness competitions, knowing that they're gonna have to, you know, run 8k and do these eight movements in between, I think just reduce takes away a barrier to entry. So we like that aspect of hierarchy. So we wanted to do something similar, but this is where we're similar but different, right? So with Affects, we're consistent, we have the same workouts, but we only have that for a calendar year because we're also big believers in you want to make sure that we're not uh we don't get any affects fatigue. You know, people don't get four years in and we're asking them to do the same workout, and you know, we want to vary it. And I'm also a big believer, and so is Ollie, that fitness trends change, movements will change, equipment will change, all that kind of everything will everything changes in the industry. So if you know, if if this amazing, I don't know, if concept two bring out an amazing bit of equipment in three years' time, we want the ability to be able to add that into our competition. And that's really important to us. So yeah, consistency for years that people know what they're training for, but keep it interesting by changing it every January.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

I think that's I mean, you can obviously see with when people talk about the fitness. Adam and I do a lot on the on the podcast, but you've got these Athens does feel like it's pitched itself right in right in the middle, you know. And and I think also a sweet spot. I think the the idea is good in the sense, you know, HyRox is this this 90-minute event, CrossFit events end up being, as you say, three, four days. You then also have this element where it's uh you know it's known and knowable for a year, but then actually you have the option to change. So it's like it does feel you can kind of see the merging of the two worlds coming together in this ethics. And I know from what you've mentioned, I presume that has been the idea all along.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah, completely. And and we believe we felt that that was the opportunity that was, I don't think left on the table because they're obviously smashing it, and they're you know, what they're doing is phenomenal, but we felt that was that was the opportunity to go after for us. It's like you know, um, we want to be an all-round test of fitness. I I the thing I love about CrossFit is it is an all-round test, you know. You can't to do well in CrossFit competitions, you can't really have a weakness. Uh, and as great as HyRox is, it's a it's predominantly in an endurance test. It has a big, big endurance bias in terms of the skill set. And we wanted to have to be an all-round test of fitness, hence the three workouts: strength, endurance, and MECCon. We wanted to test those test people on those three workouts when they weren't under fatigue. So, you know, you do the strength workout when you're fresh, you've you've warmed up for half an hour exclusively in a warm-up zone. You come into that strength test very fresh, ready to lift. You then have 10 minutes to change your shoes so you don't have to run in your lifters or run in your drop sets. You can get on your your Addy Zeros, you can do your endurance test, you then have 30 minutes to recover before you do a METCON test. So each of the workouts, you're going in in the best place to perform. So it's not it's not pure endurance. So we love the all-round test, we love that CrossFit do an all-round test, but but where we do like we don't have the skill movements, like anyone, no matter what gym you're in, um, you can you will see these movements in all gyms, whether it's uh you know a leisure center gym, a gym chain, or a CrossFit box. And I think that's where we're good. It's like our workouts are in no way boring for CrossFitters. CrossFitters love our workouts, but they don't exclude people that don't do CrossFit. So I hope, and it by design that we've got that sweet spot, like you say.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

I was gonna ask a bit more about that, like the the tension between sort of accessible and credible. So, like, you know, obviously having your everyday athlete wanting to shop, but also being able to test those on the top higher end of the of the fitness spectrum. Like, how do you make sure that you can attract the right people?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

I think that's where Oli Olli comes into his own and his his experience is great because Olli is whilst I'm not saying he's a he's an elite athlete compared to some of the guys and girls that you you guys deal with and interact with, he's still a very, very good athlete. But he owns a gym chain, you know, he has I think it's now five March on gyms, and the predominant, you know, predominantly the people that train in those gyms are everyday people. They're certainly not Ollies, they're they're more me's than Ollie's, and he so we devise the workout, and Ollie is devising them based on a challenge, something that he knows will be challenging for him, but that also will be challenging for for his gym members, and then we test them thoroughly, like that is really important. So we t and we test them at all levels. So I think for you know, we have people like Chandler, you know, testing certain stuff on workouts, and then we have people who have never I in these workouts for 20 for this year, two of my friends who have never been into a gym. Well, certainly never been into a gym for a very long time. I got them to test them as well. Um, so we're doing it on on both scales, and and and so far I think we've we've nailed it, and yeah, I'm confident that we still will moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Very cool. You mentioned uh Charlotte Smith there, and I've seen he's been been at the march on gyms and training and stuff. It's the hope that you'll you'll attract more athletes from high rock space and and cross it space to kind of come jump into AFEX and and get that other people from this high hybrid fitness space kind of involved.

SPEAKER_00 15:14

Yeah, definitely. I think that was the the the coolest thing, or not the coolest, one of the cool things about the Miami event was actually seeing Elite 15 HyRox athletes going against some of the best CrossFit athletes in the world. So we had Colonel we had Camilla Massa from the HyRox world, we had Daniel Brandon, Nick Matthew, and others from the CrossFit world, and it was just seeing like high rocks versus CrossFit type. I want to bring more athletes in. We had Erin Murray, who's a strong woman, strong woman competitor, doing the event in Miami as well. I think there's an opportunity to get people outside of the traditional fitness landscape competing, so MMA athletes, rugby league people, you know, athletes in the UK, NFL athletes in America. I would love to see how they stack up against the CrossFitters and the Hyrux people because I just think it's really interesting. And I think, but then it doesn't so yes, we want to attract elite athletes. We've got plans to to to launch an elite elite category division very, very soon, but also we don't want to forget about you know the the 98% of our our competitors, everyday people that aren't trying to get onto the onto the podium. They're there to try and improve themselves, to test themselves and to challenge themselves. And I never want to kind of get away from that. Um it's really important for me that AFEX is a is a competition for all, and and I love nothing more than seeing the Metcom workout, and you know, you have a Metcom workout, you have one pair finishing in nine minutes and another pair in the lane next to them, you know, pushing it right to the to the time cap of 25 minutes. But the best thing about it is everyone cheers each other on and supports each other, and and that's what we have to maintain for sure.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

I just wanted to follow up on the the goals of ethics, because obviously I think CrossFit has struggled with this sometimes of you know, you've got the elite, the sport of fitness, all these things, but then you also have this huge community element, and there was a long time where the CrossFit media was a bit divided. Like, how do they showcase both sides of that? And I also think because that's what's interesting to hear the goals of what you're trying to achieve with the event.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

Yeah, well, we the the the main goal is to like say to offer offer um offer people a a moment, right? A goal, a thing in the future that is going to help inspire them and motivate them on their fitness journey. That is our main goal, and and giving them a really cool, a really unique and a really immersive experience at the end of that. That that is the goal and will always remain the goal. That doesn't mean we can't attract elite athletes. We want to do that, but we just don't want to do that at the sacrifice of of delivering a really cool event for our community. I'm a big believer that we can do both. I think that you know our our world finals will have an elite heat, but that elite heat will be amongst our community heat. It won't be on a standalone day, it won't be in a standalone arena, it will be part of what we're doing with everyone else because, yes, whilst they are athletes on a different level, it doesn't mean that they're necessarily more important or less important than the core community. So that's what we're trying to do. And and the overall goal, overall ambition is we want to take AFEX, you know, truly global. This year we're gonna deliver 20 events across UK, Europe, and America. In 2027, that's gonna be 40 plus events, and I think by 2028 we'll be over 50 in every kind of major continent and fitness community across the globe is the vision.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

It's really cool about the community aspects, and it's something that John and I talk about a lot when we kind of get on and do our weekly recaps to talk about kind of the community element and how we feel like we're maybe missing that in a bit of a crop cross it space over the last few years compared to you see high rocks and everyone kind of coming together. And I it's interesting that you talked about the international kind of scaling aspect because it feels like it's growing really quickly. Like, correct me if I'm wrong, but you went from like two events to then something like seven events or something in having international events, like it feels like it's growing really quickly. Like, what has been the motivation behind that, or has it just been the demand? You're like, we need to put this up in in more places.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, I I think there's there's the the demand, yeah, definitely. I mean, we get emails on a weekly basis from all over the world in the countries we're not in asking us to bring AFEX out there. That doesn't obviously mean you can always do it and you can move as fast as as as you'd like to, or they'd like to like you to, but it shows that the demand is out there. Look, if you for me to to make a you know, we're talking about in in next year having each AFEX event will be between like 3,000 and 5,000 competitors. I'm a huge believer in you should be able to, we should be able to, with the product we have and the event that we put on, we should be able to attract that number of competitors in every every major city, pretty much in the world. So if this event can work in London and it can work in Miami and it can work in Glasgow and Berlin and Houston, then there's no reason why it doesn't work in every other major European city, every other major American city into other continents. So that that's that's why we're we're doing it. There's also an element of, and this might sound alien to some people, and I completely get it, but in some respects, the more events you put on, like the easier it can be in a way, because you kind of go from one venue, you pack up your trucks, we move to the next venue, we unload the trucks, and then we go again and we get and a bit like the circus effect is is what you're doing. And and sometimes actually, when you have three months between events or two months between events, is a bit harder because you have to go back to a central storage and unload and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think the main driver's demand, and we believe the opportunity is is there. I think Adidas have been an amazing partner for us, and I think yeah, working together, that they're very ambitious for us to take this this global because they're their teams, their Adidas teams across the globe are crying out for it. So that's also a driving factor. But yeah, just very ambitious team we've got.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

It's almost like you're teeing these questions up for us, Mark. I was gonna ask about the partnership that was recently announced. I'd leave. And it's you also mentioned kind of at the Miami event how you had CrossFitters going against Hyruxes. And there's a bit of a a charge to see who is the best. I feel like Adidas are also fueling that with recent content and some of their events where they've had in Germany where they've had both stars across CrossFit and Hyrox going and competing against one another. And it was also interesting just a comment from me on you were talking about like bringing MMA and rugby players. I feel like there's almost a thing happening in hybrid fitness a bit like it did with MMA at the early days where it was like finding out who had the best martial arts style in MMA. And you know obviously jujitsu did did great things but kind of feels like the same could happen in kind of hybrid fitness. And yeah, I I kind of thought I'd comment on that just before kind of open the floor around the Adidas partnership and what that's bringing.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah definitely you might you might be too young Adam but and you John actually I'm not sure but there used to be a program Superstars in the UK and that was the whole idea was right different athletes from different sports competing against each other in sports that neither of them did. And it's kind of that's something that I always have always thought about and I and I think particularly how we test stuff like there is no reason why a rower for example couldn't do really really well against crossfitter in in a number of our competitions like the Metcom one they might need to practice a bit but but strength and endurance certainly and and other others other sports for sure. So I think there's a really interesting angle and it's something that we want to explore and you know to do it for sure. From the from the Adidas side of things yeah I mean they've they've been amazing to us like I said they've they backed us and and I know we announced a global deal with them recently but they backed us from day one. So even before we'd done an Apex event we had a partnership in place with Adidas and that was the UK team so that was back in 2023 and it went to a global deal last year. So we went to a global deal last year after two years of being a UK deal and they're just an amazing partner to work with and I think what really excites me about Adidas is the commitment they're making to this this the training space overall I don't know if you guys have noticed it but I'm seeing more and more people wearing the three stripes in gyms at events and it's because Adidas are taking that the area seriously they're not seeing training as oh people are training in a gym to be better at football or to be better at rugby. They're seeing training as its own discipline and its own sport and I think that's how you how you succeed right their product is is has improved massively over the last few years from the shoes to everything. And I think so having a you know and at our events then they they're not just about labeling the event they show up they do activations they they you know they really really get involved in Paris we're we're creating the Apex Adidas hybrid hotel with them. So we're taking over a hotel and we're turning it into like a a functional fitness hybrid hotel for the weekend for for guests to have you know like massage and protein smoothies and nutrition talks and all you know shakeout runs and all this kind of stuff from there. And it just shows their commitment to not only AffEx but to the the space in general which I think is great.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

One of the one of the conversations we've had with you know and one behind the scenes and two on the podcast as well is with the event organizers. And that is just how expensive events can be and then we saw this through the CrossFit space and the history where events would pop up and then you know they wouldn't last very long because it's so expensive to uh to run and there's not necessarily the return. And with ethics I mean obviously being able to do 50 events at some point it has to be like financially viable and that model.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

And is that something that you've managed to achieve already with the events or is it more of a long term goal that you have yeah so you're you're completely right it's not you know putting on events is very expensive moving equipment around across Europe is very expensive. What we've we've invested a lot of money into this business to get us to a point now where yeah it's it's a it's a more than you know more than a sustainable business. You know we're putting on events where we're we're selling out we're going to two day events we're looking at increasing lanes because the demand is there. So you know it is a it's definitely a bums on seats as we say like model like you need the people there to to make the events viable but we've got it to a point where we are getting the people there. I think that what's also very important is we don't want AFEX just to be seen as an event. We definitely want it to be seen as a brand and as a community so there are ways in which you know our revenue just doesn't come from you know event ticket sales and you know there's there's loads of other ways of of making the business work right so you know merchandise we've got an affiliate program which launched in September and you know we're over 200 affiliates already and growing very very fast. And the great thing about that affiliate model is the gyms it works for the gyms financially as much as it does for us. So it's a win-win model which is going really well so yeah in in answer to your question yes it's it's a challenging thing putting on events but I think the way we're doing it and the investment we've done so far has got us to a point where we're in a good position.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

Because that's one thing I was going to ask like high rocks have obviously I think they've just like superseded CrossFit in terms of number of affiliates and you just went over 15,000 globally which is pretty huge when you consider that it's not their primary revenue source as well it's like support. But what does because with these fitness events I think they obviously see you know they saw it with CrossFit they see it with HIROX but what what does Athics offer an affiliate in that in that model?

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah so we're so with with our affiliate model I mean there's various things we offer I think the the the main thing we give people the opportunity to to make their monthly their monthly subscription that they pay to us back through running of in-house competitions kickbacks we give them on on their members entering our events and stuff like that. We also give them access we've built like a a buyers portal so the idea is our our our aim our vision is by the end of 2028 to have over 4000 affiliates so the buying power of having 4000 gyms together when you're buying equipment or buying insurance or buying all those different things so we're creating this buyers club which we believe will add a huge amount of value we also educate their coaches and their gym managers on uh really this is the thing where I think we're slightly different to what other people do is that we're not our focus isn't solely on making or getting coaches to make their members or their clients better at affects we want them to teach the fundamentals of strength and conditioning because essentially we believe one of the byproducts of being you know getting your client better at strength and conditioning is they will become better at affects but it's only one thing essentially we're trying to make them better athletes for for life and and it just means they get better at yeah they'll get better results on the competition floor. Whereas I think some other affiliate programs it's it becomes all about the time all about right how can you in the higher ops model right how can you do these eight movements better how can you run faster and actually that's not something we necessarily believe in to that level so educate the coaches like I said give their gyms the ability to to earn the money back through through driving their members to compete and giving them kitbacks on that and giving them the opportunity to to to make savings across their business as part of the buyers club are the of the main things just quickly going back to we talked about expansion and going to other countries just looking at the US as a specific market it feels like the US is in an interesting spot from a fitness perspective because CrossFit we've seen live events don't really get people going spectating all that much now and there's more and more events coming out that we already talked about like Xenon for instance recently announced and I think their first event is in America.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

So it feels like America's like this big nut to crack but actually at the moment maybe isn't as active as perhaps Europe or other markets.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

What what's your view on the the states specifically I think I think our product is is perfect for the American market. Like you guys said I feel like we fill that we fill that void of or that gap that exists between CrossFit and HIROX. I think the CrossFit events in America are doing really well and sorry the HIROX events in America are doing really well and selling really well and are filling up and I feel like we can offer something and deliver something for for that community that looks similar feels similar delivered to a very high standard but there is that different fitness test and as you know as you guys will know like in America there is a the level of athlete as a as a standard as an average is probably slightly greater than Europe I would say and I think that so I believe really strongly that that the that our product will will go down really well with the American market as it did you know with that first Miami event we kind of we launched that event four weeks out from actually the event day and we sold out we sold a day out which being completely honest with you I wasn't expecting because of how close we were to the event so that that kind of gave us some confidence but at the same time we're not taking it for granted we need to go out there we're building a team in America that is going to be a team you know exclusive for the American market and AFEX team that their job is to make sure that all the fitness communities know about AFEX know what it is and know what know what the workouts are and I think if we do that hard work we're convinced that the events will sell so we're actually looking at it and thinking next year we'll be somewhere between 10 and 16 events in America in 2027. Wow that's super exciting yeah because like I said I think that if if the event works in LA works in San Diego there is no reason why it doesn't work in New York in Boston in in Houston in Miami etc etc it's just but at the same time I'm not we're not going out there thinking that oh it's just going to happen you know you have to do the do the do the groundwork do the hard work to to to let people know but once people know about it we believe it it will attract them and then it's about delivering really high level experiences and events for them.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

And from a spectator point of view because that seems to be the like next wave right we're getting the people through the door to kind of have an experience but the next wave feels like it's like how do we actually get people to come and watch this stuff then no longer is it just a participation thing it's also becoming it's sport on its own right and a spectator thing and there's online streaming have you kind of thought about how you build like an audience for this just outside of like the athletes participating yeah so the the plan for our first hopefully our first online stream will be at our finals this year which will be at the end of November in Lisbon.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

So we we want to stream that event for sure and I think that will hopefully there'll be some interest in in in watching it it's quite a watchable format if you like because it's easy to follow the athletes are very you know they're in a zone for each workout and it's only it's a two and a half hour experience for the athlete but you're watching essentially a 20 minute strength workout a 22 minute endurance workout and then a 20 to 25 minute MECOM workout. So it's very you can be very focused it's not something you you know hard to follow or a long duration of watching so we think that will work well in terms of driving spectators to the event at the moment you know majority if not all the people that come and watch are people that are there to watch family or friends and that's something that I want to change. So we're working with Adidas on actually what can we offer at the event that is going to drive spectators to come come to it even if they don't know someone that's competing. So we're looking at you know can we run workshops at the event? Can we run activations that can be really exciting? Can we do things that like could we run an Adidas run club or even a 5k from the event that would actually drive a different audience but a like minded audience to the event and then they'll then experience it and see what it's about. And that doesn't just have to be with Adidas with some of our other partners you know we've just signed a deal with two pood and we're looking at can we do lifting workshops at the event with even talking to other event organizers running events for example or or even you could see an angle where we a CrossFit event we could run a there could be a CrossFit event happening in a venue at the same time as an AFX there's there's loads of things we're exploring but that that's a big focus for me and the team is that we we we we make it a really cool spectator experience as well as an athlete experience. And I was going to ask does that then influence kind of where you choose to put an Apex event is there a particular at the moment like venue type or venue style you're like that's where an affect needs to be or is it at the moment kind of a bit more broader than that so we like um I'd say you know probably 90% of our our events are in exhibition halls and it it's it just works right because you've got an empty box essentially you know we're we're we're taking our our arena and we're building it in the same type of space every single time similar flooring similar lighting similar everything so you could once you're in there you could really be anywhere from an operational perspective but we also love the idea of having a few unique venues every year Miami Beach being one of them right it's the the conditions were very similar because of the roof but the backdrop was unbelievable I love the idea the the venue we're looking at for New York is isn't your traditional expo hall is something that's a little bit different and quite cool.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

There's other venues we looked at as well so but yeah 90% well 90 to 95% will always be that expo hall but with a couple of special ones each year hopefully I wanted to just jump into something that I've been thinking about a lot and I think right now in terms of fitness competitions it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say there's probably thousands like I think here in Mallorca in like the last three years or I mean I think there's like eight or nine separate things from like a strong race to you know all these different the different gym chains are doing some their own hybrid fitness and so everyone's you know high rocks has definitely just exploded that world of possibilities but one in particular came out recently that I think was more at least more hyped up by the the CrossFit world which was Xenom and I'd love to sort of get your your thoughts on that especially from how they've approached it because being two days ten workouts high price points and I'd I'd really be interested to get your perspective on you know if you think it's been a good or a a bad idea.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

I yeah I don't know if it's for me to say it's a good or bad idea. It was interesting. I think when I first heard about it I thought it was going to be something different to what it actually ended up being and and essentially I feel like they created a a a very elite or high level CrossFit event. And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that in any way you know but but that's the route they've gone down because you know we've all seen the workouts right so the the movements within the workouts aimed at high level CrossFit athletes and the fact that it's two days and the price point means that they're the people you're going to attract and again that that's not necessarily a bad thing that's that's the space they've chosen to play in uh and good luck to them. I think the more the more high quality fitness events that can be in this space the better whether that is a cross set specific event or more of a you know endurance test or more of a hybrid or something in the middle it it for me the bet the better quality events and the better experiences we can all put on then I think we can all benefit and the industry as a whole will will just grow stronger.

SPEAKER_02 38:54

Because you guys have obviously done a lot of market research to know where to go how to price things do you think it's possible to get 2000 people paying that amount of money per event uh proof will be in the pudding won't it I'm I'm yeah I'm I'm not sure to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

I don't know if I'm it it will all depend on what I think the demand can be there if if if the experience matches the price point right if people feel like they're getting value for money particularly in America I think they they can sell out those events in America I think in you know I've I've run a few CrossFit events in the UK under the strength in depth banner and I think it'll be more challenging in in the UK if if they come to the UK but again I might I might be wrong it's not not necessarily an area we play in as much anymore or that's not our format so it's not something we've necessarily considered maybe as much yeah but I think they could I think they could but you they have to deliver for that money you have to deliver something really really special so hopefully they will and and with your guys' event because obviously the format's fixed now you kind of have some variance as you said in terms of programming the workout is there anything that you'd have changed based on your your experience or with all the other events that you see popping up now do you go oh that was actually a good idea or yeah I think if I could have um so we brought out the the the run loop so people we actually get people running the first time we did that was last year in 2025 I had the time again I'd have had that from the start because I think that was game changing I think the difference between running an actual loop at or on a track versus running on a running machine it was I think it was game changing and I think people enjoy that it as as a as someone who does obviously does affect events it's much more enjoyable running round the the 250 meter track than it is running on a curved treadmill so I think I would have I would have done that we take learnings from other events all the time and it's like and whether it's a big event like Hyrux or it's the CrossFit games or it's a a local gym comp I think you can always I think it's very dangerous to think that you've nailed it and you've you're you're perfect so I think we take learnings all the time one thing we're we're really keen to do and and we're working on at the moment is like the make it easier for spectators to follow what's going on make it easier for athletes to see how they're doing versus the person in the the lane you know for four along and I think that's really important. I think also like the feedback we give people and give athletes is is really really important. So I'm not sure if you guys are aware but we we have like a AFEX fit score system which essentially so as well when you compete as well as seeing where you came in the leaderboard in your category you also get essentially like a top trumps card where you get a rating out of a hundred for the the different lifts you did for running for rowing and for the MECCon workout. And I think that is something that is we probably we need to talk about more because I think it's really most people they do an athletics they get to the end of it and they know what area they know how to come back and do the event better next time but this car just gives them that proof and it's like so then you go into the gym like for me personally not that I'm any kind of superstar athlete but I know where I my athletic score gets let down is my running. So I'm motivated to do more running and to you know to even though it's not something I massively enjoy I'm motivated to do it because the numbers and the data that I get and the feedback that I get shows me how I can improve as an athlete at my level so I think that's something that we we need to and and we'll be talking about more.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Yeah I think it's super cool and I'm glad you brought that up you're teeing up my next question again Mark is your uptivo partnership which I saw which is like AI coaching and wearable integration believe me correct me if I'm wrong. So yeah how do you see technology kind of and the future of kind of fitness interweaving because I feel like they are you've seen whoops valuation recently I feel like AI and tech now are here to stay in fitness and they're going to be a massive part of it.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Definitely and I think as an as an event organizer you've got that side of it right where you can we want we you know the partnership with uptivo will be around take giving that feedback to a whole nother level so not only are we telling people you know what they lifted and what what what that equates to as a score out of a hundred and and how their running was you know but also then looking at that heart rate monitor data and combining the two things and then giving them not only like feedback on their performance but then the tools of how to get better. So really exciting the great thing about T ro it doesn't matter whether you're wearing you know it's an Apple Watch it's a My Zone device whatever it is it works with everything. So that was what we really loved about that and the and the AI tech is is great. So it's exciting where that partnership Can go, but also from an event organizer, like AI could be game-changing when it comes to judging, right? Personally, I don't think it's quite there at the moment. I'm I'm gonna be delighted when someone proves me wrong and can show that it is. And I know there's a couple of events that are using kind of AI for judging, but it for me, judging standards have it has to be like really, really I have to be sure that it's gonna work to do it, but I think we all get to that point. So having the ability, you know, to have a clean floor where there are no judges in strength and it's being done, the judging is being done by AI, and the same in Metcon, I mean, that that will be game changing. I don't reckon we're that far away from it. Do you know it? Do you think that's kind of close on the horizon? Yeah, I mean, I've heard of I've heard of gyms in in the US, you may where the that all the coaching is being done by AI and cameras and stuff like that. I've had people present to me like the ability for for AI to judge like squat depth and to judge burpees, and I know there's you know there's an event in London that does it, but the feedback I get and from my own eyes, like I I'm not I'm not sure it's close enough to 100% to to use it at the moment. It makes their life easier because they don't need to recruit judges, look after judges, fund judges, so it makes their life easier uh and the event probably more profitable. But for me, if if it's not spot on, the experience isn't going to be good enough for the competitor. So, but I I yeah, I can't see that we're gonna be that far away at all.

SPEAKER_01 45:38

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

And for those who listening who maybe aren't familiar with Uptivo, could you just kind of tell us a little bit more about the platform and then how how it really integrates with AFEX and and yeah, so they yeah, so they uh they have this, it's just a unique thing where, like I said, they have the they'll take your the data, your heart, your the heart rate monitor data, your performance metrics, they combine it with with all the data that we give them in terms of what people lifted, how fast people ran, how fast people rode, and their Metcon time. And it combines and it gives you like a really nice report on your your overall performance in the athletics arena. And then if you want to, it will then turn that into a training plan that will be personal to you that will allow you to improve on like develop the your areas of strength, but improve on your areas of weakness. So it's really cool, and it's all done, you know, obviously via via AI. I don't, you know, that doesn't mean that everyone has to use that. You can also take the information and the report we give you and take it back to your coach, take it back to your gym manager, who can then program something for you themselves. So I think it just gives people different options, and depending on where you're training and the environment you're training in, I think it just it's nice to have those two options.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah, very cool. And I know we're kind of getting close to time, but could you give us a bit of a view of where you, I mean, we've talked about the growth for AFEX and some of that stuff. What's the future vision without obviously being too big a question? But what's the future vision for AFEX? Where do you see us going? And maybe also a little bit on the fitness industry, because I feel like things have changed and grown really quickly in the last few years, and CrossFit being this established player to being disrupted quite quite quite largely. Where do you think that we're gonna go?

SPEAKER_00 47:22

Yeah, I think I think the overall kind of future of fitness competitions, I think, is is really healthy. I think as as we you know, the world is changing, right? And like people are using AI more, people are working from home more, and and all those things, I think actually will drive people to to want and desire like real life experiences and real life interactions with people, other people. And I think so the the events industry as a total and including the fitness events with that, I think I think the future looks bright because people are gonna crave those things more. Uh, so I think that's exciting. Um, in terms of ethics, what what what we want to do, we want to we want to continue to to grow and grow rapidly. Like I said, we're looking at 40 plus events next year, which will be double what we're gonna deliver this year. I think moving on into 2028, it will be 55 plus. For me, where if there's a high rocks event that takes place in a city, then there's no reason why an ATEX event can't work there as well. And even in in cities that high ROCs don't go to, if there's a fitness community that exists and there's a training culture, then ethics can work. So I think you know, resource, time, manpower is going to be really the only limiting factor that can allow us to get close, you know, to 100 events in a year, which I think would be really achievable. I my team might not agree with this, but I can't wait for the day when we're doing two events on the same same day in different parts of the world. I'm so excited about the the content opportunity around that, the social media opportunity. I just love it. They get annoyed with me at the moment when we do back-to-back events, like we've got Milan and Paris, but I think same-day events would be will be so cool. So um, yeah, and then like like I said, it's I think we want we want to grow grow athletics at both ends of the scale. So, yes, we would love to have more elite athletes taking part across multiple sports, not only CrossFit athletes, high rocks athletes, but other sports, like I said, but also at the other end as well. It's really important for me that anyone that's going to a gym two, three times a week, you know, feels that they could come and do an ethics, and we we support them and and give them the tools that they need to feel comfortable to come and do an ethics. Our eldest competitor so far has been 78. Our youngest has been 16, and there's everything in between. And ability-wise, like I said, the the two guys that tested that work, the workouts for me this year ended up doing the event in London, having never been to a gym before. Another of my friends never went, 45-year-old guy, never been to the gym before, signed up to do an Apex, and is now going to the gym four or five times a week and eating overnight oats in the morning. It's been life-changing for him, and I think we can we can do that for more people. And I genuinely believe that. That's not that's not a throwaway line. I think the evidence is there that we can we can yeah, change the lives of people that end whilst also attracting more elite athletes at the top end.

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Uh, maybe had a simpler question. What does ethics stand for?

SPEAKER_00 50:40

I did a bit of research, but I didn't get the to you know what this is this is something we definitely need to tell the story better. So so ethics is so the ATH in athex means athlete, and the X is basically meaning you. So for the for your time in the in the AFX experience, you are the athlete. And no matter what level you're at, uh no matter what category you're doing, we want you to feel like you're treated like an athlete. So when you're in the warm-up zone, you have a dedicated warm-up space. We're showing you, you know, helping you in terms of how you warm up. Obviously, when you're in the refuel zone, again, you're getting products that elite athletes get that you feel like you're being treated special. In the recovery zone, there's hyperized products available. When you finish the experience, there's massage, there's chill areas. So it's the idea is for that two and a half hours, you feel like you are an athlete and you feel like an athlete. So hence the X representing you.

SPEAKER_01 51:41

Awesome. I had one more question just around media because we've mentioned it a few times, and you've mentioned kind of telling stories. Do you have any like views on media? Because again, myself and John have talked about on the on our podcast episodes about the media and the role with it within CrossFit, and then when it went away, just again, we kind of really noticed the impact of that on CrossFit athletes now. You look at some of the top athletes of this generation versus 10 years ago, their followings on social media, it seems to be very contrast. So, do you have like a view of how media is going to contribute to AFEX or its role within ATEX?

SPEAKER_00 52:16

Yeah, it was interesting. You said earlier, you guys said earlier around CrossFit events in the US not attracting the spectators that they used to. And I think the main reason behind that is that the the personalities haven't been nurtured as much as they were. And I think the big thing around around that is because of the the the lack of media or not the level of media that there was. You know, I used to before I even went to a CrossFit box, I used to love watching the CrossFit Games documentary, and it just seems that that just isn't at the level as it was previously. And I think those personalities do exist within the sport, but they're just not being shown to the level they were. Media is something that we we we want to invest in and we're continually investing in. Um, you know, the content that we put out on our social channels is great, as this year, particularly has taken a big jump, but there's loads more we want to do. And again, I feel like it's it's about telling the stories not just of the elite athletes, that is a really important part of it, but also telling the stories of the of the everyday athletes. I think both is really important. It's something that as we grow, we will continue to invest in for sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

Very cool. Well, we are almost at time now. John, do you have anything else that you want to ask Mark before we uh wrap this up?

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Not ask, but I I think you know, just a shout out to you guys. Like we've discussed this and in behind the scenes conversations. We think it's a great concept. Like it's uh I think it really hits uh you know, we look at it as like a Venn diagram, and you've kind of managed to fit in well. It's an experience that people can go to. It has the more complex movements, but not too complex. So, you know, I think well done to you and the team for you know creating something that's uh that looks very cool.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Appreciate it. No, from from you guys, that means a lot. Obviously, you're very well, very respected people within the in the space. So that means a lot. And if you guys want to come and uh partner up and do one of the upcoming events, just we uh is that uh is that partnership with you, Mark?

SPEAKER_02 54:15

We get to you you do the strength and I'll do the running.

SPEAKER_00 54:19

Well, I'm doing honestly, John. I'm doing every my my thing this year is I'm doing every every single AffX event I'm doing. So and in every one I'm competing with a different person. So if you want to jump in with me for one of the events, you're more than welcome.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Okay, nice. That that sounds fun.

SPEAKER_00 54:35

Cool, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 54:37

Very cool. Well, on that note, I think we should wrap it up. And I'll uh I'll I'll definitely bring it up every episode from now on. Check on whether that's uh that's actually happened or not. So uh the listeners can uh can expect to get an update on that very soon. Well, Mark, thanks so much. I echo what John said, it's really cool. It's cool to see people doing different stuff in the space, and I'm really excited to see the growth of AFX over the next year and beyond. Thank you, appreciate your support. Thank you very much. You're very welcome. Well, team, thank you very much for tuning in. And if you want to jump into an AFEX, if that has wet your whistle, then I'll put the link in the description for for the competition page. Sign up. There's there's some really cool events by the looks of it all over the world now. So um, so yeah, if that's really got you uh in the mood for some comp competition, and also hopefully we'll have a time from John and the pairs that we can then you can then compete against. But thank you very much for listening, everyone. Thank you very much to Mark for his time and John as always for for the conversation, and we will catch you on the next episode.