Stop Thinking Start Doing

Interview with Nick - The Power of Rest

February 23, 2023 Alicia Papa, Erin Brewer, & Mary Bowlby Season 2 Episode 10
Stop Thinking Start Doing
Interview with Nick - The Power of Rest
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we are joined in conversation by Nick McGlinchey, sharing about the Power of Rest. Nick is a Doctor of Pharmacy from the University of New England who offers us a scientific lens of rest and sleep, based on personal and professional experience. We journey through big life transformations and the essential role that adequate, restorative rest plays. Packed with practical actions to improve your own sleep hygiene, this episode is not to be missed!

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STSD - Power of Rest Interview

Erin: On today's episode, we have a very special guest joining us to continue our conversation on the Power of Rest. So joining us today is Nick, who is a doctor of pharmacy, which is different than pharmacology we just learned today, which is so fascinating. And not only is he brilliant and amazing and so kindhearted, but he's also my cousin, which just makes him even more just special and beautiful, and he is one of my favorite people in the entire world.

Erin: And as Alicia says, what do you say?

Alicia: one of the, or top five, one of the top five smartest people I know is very

Erin: you go. Very, you're

Alicia: hold a conversation with like anybody about anything, anytime, anywhere, and you're just so kindhearted. So I'm so excited.

Nick: thanks guys.

Alicia: Yeah,

Nick: every morning like this. This is great. Fantastic.

Alicia: to Stop Thinking, start doing. There's a community for that

Erin: Oh, wait. You're in it.

Nick: I am in it. Yeah, that was

Alicia: you are. Yeah. So I'm just so grateful because if anybody listened to the first episode of The Power of Rest, Nick changed my like sleep experience in October. We went to Maine and like I said, Nick is a very knowledgeable person and he has life experience too. And he just shared with us like his experience with his trouble with sleep and how he worked on that.

Alicia: And you know, I shared with him that I had been dealing with insomnia and was taking different supplements and we just went into this like whole, I learned so much and I'm still like applying. He told me then. So I'm really grateful for this episode and when we said the power of rest, I was like, please can we talk to Nick Because one, everybody needs to hear what he has to say, and two, I wanna know more

Alicia: So thank you for being here.

Erin: that.

Nick: having me. Happy to be here,

Erin: So I think that it's fitting that we're talking about the power of rest as I am emerging from a restful cave of the past 24, 36 hours of recovering from whatever cold nonsense is,

Nick: Oh, no.

Erin: processing through, my body. So yeah, it was, it was interesting to like not beat myself up for laying in bed and binging Netflix yesterday when I have so much other things awaiting me.

Erin: And the beauty of that is that they are still, all those things still await me and more so I couldn't do it without, without the rest. Would he watch anything good?

Mary: Hmm.

Erin: oh yeah. Well, the second season of Ginny in Georgia, which took you on a whole emotional rollercoaster that.

Alicia: she experienced it in 24 hours.

Erin: Yeah, I just, it was 10 episodes of, of

Alicia: Mm-hmm.

Erin: emotional turmoil, so I don't know if that was very restful, but I, I

Mary: Physical rest but not emotional rest.

Erin: yeah. Lots of emotions, lots of tears, lots of laughing. Lots of lots of greatness.

Erin: Yeah. So resting,

Alicia: Yeah.

Nick: you feeling better?

Erin: improved is what I just keep,

Nick: I'll take an improved.

Alicia: Yeah.

Erin: leaning out is, is an improved. So I'd really like to come back to kind of recapping that conversation that Alicia, Nick had you know, again about the difference or the importance of sleep hygiene. And we already know that there's such a big difference between sleep and rest.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And so I think that this conversation is gonna be, More like sciencey and I'm so here for

Alicia: Yeah, I was gonna say, Nick, could you tell, could you tell the people the story that you told us about, like where you were when you were struggling with sleep, like the capacity that everything that you were holding at that time.

Nick: Yeah, absolutely. Start off by saying, as you know, I'm a pharmacist, not a sleep expert. Never done any clinical research on it, but we touch upon it in school, and it's something that I get asked about a lot just in my job or by Alicia.

Erin: in your worldly experiences,

Nick: sleep is one of those interesting things where like everybody needs it and most people don't really know why.

Nick: It's kinda like food tastes good, you want to eat right, you enjoy eating. A lot of people nowadays, especially like in America, on average, we've lost an hour of sleep over the past. Like, I think it's like 15, 20 years or something. It, it was,

Mary: That is terrible.

Nick: and like we're eating, you enjoy it, you love the activity, sleep.

Nick: We almost wear it like as a badge of honor that I can get by on six hours of sleep. And if you look at the research and the studies, like you can't across the board, nobody ever can, or at least not for a long term. It's important to your entire body, your mental, your physical, everything about you.

Nick: And those bleed over to like your social interactions as well. So my first real. Attempt to learn about sleep and understand what it really was. I was in grad school or undergrad is when it started. And I went from high school. I decided I wanted to be a pharmacist and I was good at school cuz I worked really hard at it.

Nick: I have a few older brothers. One of 'em is naturally a lot more intelligent. Maybe should have applied himself a little bit more. But I was always the person trying to catch up to them, right. And it took a lot more effort. So I go into college knowing it's gonna be tough and being like, I have a good work ethic.

Nick: I think I'll be fine as long as I just like stay the course and put my nose down and grind through it. And what I found

Erin: Oh, that grind.

Nick: yeah, , yeah, the grind. What I found was that's not enough because like at a certain point, your effort level, is like a resource. And when you run out of the resource, like whether it means you can only put in so much effort over a 24 hour span or a 16 hour span, if you get eight hours of sleep a night or less sleep, more work which is

Erin: more energy.

Nick: And that's what I was running into. I was I had a pretty crazy undergrad. I did an accelerated program, which means that instead of four years undergrad, I just did two years. Which is important because that means I'm doing up to 20, 22 credits a semester of like hard sciences to get all my rec requirements for grad school done.

Nick: On top of this, I was going to

Erin: Yeah. Like I didn't see you, you didn't exist for like a few years

Nick: I absolutely did not exist outside my little bubble. This is the only world that exists.

Erin: You were like, I gotta study. I'm like, yeah, okay. But like, so I'm in college too, like whatever. I was like, oh, I did not understand

Nick: It's, I mean, there's a lot of, like, college is gonna be tough for anybody depending on what you, what you're at. Some just courses require different types of behavior. And so I just kind of had to adjust over to the type of behavior I had to follow for, to be successful through undergrad, the accelerated program.

Nick: So like I was doing a lot of hard sciences, like we didn't have any, I'll call 'em fluff courses. I dunno if that's a PC way to say it or not, but it's kinda like you need to take a few extra credits so you kind of take whatever you think that you're already good at, something easy. That way you can kind of shun to your time more over to the harder classes where most of your time is really gonna be needed.

Nick: And that's gonna be like your, your math, like your calculus or your physics or something like that. Depending on who you are. And I didn't get any of the fluff classes. I just. Had straight hard sciences all the way through for like 20, 22 credits. And on top of that, I was going to the gym because I did track in high school and I knew that I have to make sure that my physical wellbeing is taken care of too, because I knew it was gonna be a marathon from an educational standpoint.

Nick: And I was never gonna make it if I didn't take care of my body. So I'd go to classes, I'd wake up like six 30, go to breakfast, I'd go to my 8:00 AM class, and I had classes straight through the day. I'd start or I'd get outta class, I think, I don't know, like 5 30, 6 30, something like that. Eat dinner, hang out with friends for like maybe a half an hour, maybe an hour if I wanted less sleep.

Nick: And then I'd go to the gym and I'd typically end up going to the gym sometime around like nine 30 or 10:00 PM at night. I'd be there for a couple of hours. I'd go back and get all my

Erin: of hours.

Nick: I'd go back, get all my homework done. I tried to get some homework done in little pieces throughout the day between classes.

Nick: If I had five, 10 minutes, it's kind of hard to find. But by the time I got my homework done, it was usually, I don't know, like anywhere from like midnight on a good night to like 2, 2 30 in the morning.

Mary: Jesus.

Nick: And then Monday to Friday, like, you have classes. So you wake up at six 30 if you want to get up, shower, get ready, go to breakfast before class or 8:00 AM class before you go to organic chemistry or something.

Nick: And like that, that was my life. Like that's where I existed. That was my purpose while I was there. And I, I had to make sure that I got through so early on, I, I've realized,

Erin: we cut from the same cloth? I, so I, I've always been, been in all wonder in like wonderment watching your, like adaptability. Like that's what's coming up for me. When you're sharing about how you're like, you know, this is a marathon, I have to. Really changed my, like what's the behavior that's gonna help me to be the best, the most successful, like you have such, like the mindset, but not only the mindset, but but the, again, the adaptability, the, the actionable

Mary: the practical application.

Erin: Yeah. And, and it, it like that most people strive for. And I feel like that this is just like the fact that you had that going into college at, you know, 17, 18, 19, and then did that through like 18, 19, 20, like, and like continue.

Nick: it, it was more like, I appreciate that and I love the, they use the, like, the sense of adaptability cuz I, that's gonna help and be recurring theme throughout. this topic. So I love that you brought it up. Going into college, like I just knew it was expensive because I couldn't go. I had to go to a university cuz they no other place offered pharmacy.

Nick: Where in Maine where I was from. And so they're typically a lot more expensive on average. And I knew it was gonna be a lot of money, a lot of loans taken out. I didn't know what that meant, but I knew that I could not fail. This is my one shot. We had to take out federal loans. Like this is it. If I wanted to pay 'em off, I had to get through.

Nick: And it was all about surviving the way. So early on in my undergrad, you very quickly realized with a schedule like that, this is not sustainable. Which is a scary, scary feeling when you are two months in. Or only one month in, and your body's like on the verge of shutting down because you're just pushing it to the absolute limit and then beyond.

Nick: Which is great in small bursts to stretch yourself and with your capabilities, but not for a long-term thing.

Alicia: Mm-hmm.

Nick: It's just not healthy. And so at the time I started to figure out like who was doing well, what were the habits that they were doing, how do I adapt? How do I do this? And I didn't, didn't know at the time, but I started to learn about good sleep hygiene.

Nick: I didn't know what was called that. I didn't know. It was a whole topic that you can Google, you can look into. And it's once, we'll go through it later and once you hear some of the stuff, you're like, oh, obviously this is what my parents told me to do. But there's very real reasons behind a lot of them.

Nick: So

Erin: And I feel like that's such a big missing piece about, you know, like doing things just because, right? Like because we're told to, and actually understanding

Nick: without the

Erin: practical why and how and all of those things behind it. And I feel like that's what we've had to kind of learn on our own as we've gotten older.

Alicia: Yeah. That like positive or negative consequence, like of, of the action.

Nick: Side thought process. Imagine how many years of your life you would've saved if, I don't know. Like, I love my parents. They're great parents. I got really lucky. I wish they explained the why more, especially with stuff like sleeping.

Mary: the context.

Nick: took, yeah. Context is everything. How many years do you think you would've saved throughout your life on different topics if they just had the energy to give you a little bit more context?

Nick: Well, that's all side thing, but

Mary: Yeah, that's real. See, my brain's going in a really interesting place because I'm super stubborn. So I'm like, my parents probably could have given me all the context in the world and I still would've needed to do it by myself to be like, yeah, they were, they were correct with this. Or like, Hmm, this didn't work for me.

Mary: But yeah, but even regardless, context is always, I think, helpful. I think there isn't really a time where it's not so,

Nick: Absolutely. I mean, it's usually like an energy question. Does the person explaining it have the energy to do it thoroughly? And is the person listening have the energy to receive the information?

Erin: Yeah. I mean that's like, Ooh. Receiving too, Jesus. I know. Well, I was thinking about how you said earlier about the, the resources, you know, and about how energy, you know, we talk all the time about how

Mary: is a resource.

Erin: is a resource and so to understand how that comes and goes and like, like you can't really look at time as a resource.

Erin: Cuz time is just a construct. But like your energy is your

Nick: about to blow your

Erin: either have it or you don't. Ugh, I can't wait. All right. We're on pins and needle.

Nick: Okay, so going back to the story I started to look at what other people were doing to get through what was successful because you can always tell like, who are the kids thriving and who are the kids looking for opportunities and answers, right? Like so I started to notice, oh, these are things they did do, they didn't do.

Nick: And it kind of gave me a good starting point and I was able to luckily a lot of them were my friends, and so we hung out a lot anyways, and it's, you're always influenced by the people who are around you. So I got really lucky that I had some good friends, some high quality people to be around me, which is really nice.

Nick: And That's just who you are. You magnetize the people who lift you up and who empower, who are empowered themselves, and then that's what you pick up from them. And that's just, that's one of your superpowers, sir

Alicia: Yeah, but you too.

Nick: you. Absolutely,

Alicia: So the both of you

Nick: feels,

Mary: So what was that? I can't believe

Erin: Here's up. Thanks. Same cloth. All right. All right.

Nick: So I, I started like adjusting little things in my schedule and I noticed that some things worked some things didn't. I felt more energetic throughout the day. . One of the biggest things I found would help me was I had to change my sleep behavior like. , and I'm talking right now directly around when I go to lay down and go to bed.

Nick: I had to change my mindset. I had to change how I viewed the whole thing. I had to change my whole system around it and kind of rewire my brain to accept that you have maybe two hours, maybe four hours if you're lucky of sleep. This is the only time you have to do it. You need to sleep right now or you won't get it until the following day.

Nick: And you'll have to pull all that tired, like kinda like baggage with you throughout the day. And you have to complete the day with weight, like weights weighing you down. And so I found out that as soon as I was able to re rewire my brain and be like, this is sleep time, I was able to lay in bed and like that, just fall asleep.

Nick: And then I'd set an alarm on my phone. So like I'd wake up when I needed to, I'd get up and go, I'd come back if I had 10 minutes in between classes, I'd power nap. Do something you have to get your sleep in. And that was the biggest key that I found that let me endure that kind of grueling schedule for so long.

Nick: And it's something I always been able to take care carry through with me through grad school and through my work life now, because as everybody knows, like college and the real world are very different, they require very different things. I personally feel. undergrad and grad school is a lot harder than the real world in terms of like effort level, but the real world just like throws random stuff your way and you either have the skills or you don't.

Nick: But the important thing is you need the energy to get the skills or to complete whatever the tasks are or the things in front of you. You do that by getting sleep. When I was in high school, I was able to get away with getting a few hours of sleep. I, I'm a, I'm a gamer and so like, I've always been a night owl, and so like I'd stay up high school, I'd work hard, but like, how hard do you really have to work?

Nick: You know what I mean? You show up and you do the task and you do all right. Might not get a's, you might have to put in some more effort, but like you can complete the task. You'll complete high school. College is very different. And so I had to go from. when I would sleep late at night in high school, I'd have the TV on, I'd have sound, I always have the sci-fi channel on, and it was some kinda like background noise, and that's what I grew up and became accustomed to, and that's the habit that I pulled through me to college.

Nick: The problem was in college you have roommates, so I'm in a position where I'm getting, I have a crazy schedule, and I won't say like a picky roommate, but like, they wanted the room to be silent. Overall, they're, they're a good roommate, but like one of the things that they needed was, they needed a, like a silent room stuff, and I'm used to falling asleep with sound on, so,

Erin: Oh yeah, I'm say going and like living at college or just even, not even at college, but just the experience of having roommates and talking about like, right, doing things that we've always done or that you're accustomed to growing up, and ways that either you're taught or just kind of fall into creating your own behaviors and habits and then having to share that with somebody else and notice that your normal ist, everyone's normal, and that's just a whole nother

Alicia: Yeah, you've realized what your unhealthy has been your whole life, and yeah. I'm just thinking of moving in with somebody in a relationship and it's like, oh,

Erin: that, and any time that you're living with, with somebody that, especially that you didn't, you know, share a household growing up with like it is a whole new experience.

Nick: Absolutely. And like, just the behavior, the small change of having some kind of static white, noisy sound or some TV program playing or something to not having any sound at all in the room specifically was weird. And it, it took me a while to get used to it, but one of the hardest things about it was because our room was silent.

Nick: We're at college. The hallways are never silent. I don't care what time of night it is, there's people walking, there's always drunk people, belligerent people. They're just like trying to be quiet, but they're just loud. And then I'm just sitting there in bed thinking I need to be quiet for my roommate, which I think was a, a nice thing to do cuz they wanted be quiet.

Nick: And then in the hallway people are just going bananas, right? And so I had this thing where like my entire pattern was changing. My room environment I'm sleeping in has changed. It's gone to quiet from static white noise and then outside all I hear is banging, whatever voices. Some loud, some not as loud, but like basically then my brain starts picking up on the conversations out in the hallway, which is keeping me awake.

Nick: And suddenly I found with my schedule that I'm awake most of the time I should be asleep. And so, I knew that with all my challenges in my past, like whether it was like, like I ran track and stuff I did okay in school, in high school leading up to it. Like I knew every time I came across something I just kind of threw all my willpower at it until I figured it out and then I could figure out a better system, optimize it, move on to the next thing.

Nick: So I decided that's my only strategy and so I'm gonna go with it. And what I found was you can will yourself to do anything including kind of rewire your brain and tell yourself as you're like walking through the dorm halls in this story, like getting to bed. I have four hours. This is the only sleep I'm expected to get.

Nick: I need to be rested. I have to find a way that when I lay down, my brain knows and understands and agrees it's time to go to bed

Erin: Ooh agrees.

Nick: Yeah. And so like, how can

Erin: there's a difference between knowing,

Mary: And agreeing.

Erin: knowing, and doing.

Nick: So it's like we're all like, like I'm one person. You're one person. Right. But as I'm sure you could agree, like your brain doesn't always have the same agenda that you have, which is a weird concept, but like the subconscious is pretty, pretty strong.

Nick: And I was just able, cuz throughout the days I just kept telling myself, okay, tonight when I go to bed, and this is like, I tell myself like 30 times a day throughout my classes periodically to create this situation where I'm hearing this information and telling myself this information so much that it becomes almost like a self-affirmation to my brain to be like, okay, you lay in bed now you're matching the sang with the behavior.

Nick: And you're able to kinda like willpower yourself to be like, I'm in bed at this time, I'm going into bed. That was huge for me, Nick, because that was one of the things that I took away from our conversation in. When we were in the cabin was those affirmations. And I, and I now do them with like other affirmations. Like, I will move my body today because I care about my body. And then when I go to like go for a walk, I'm like, oh, I already told myself I'm doing this today.

Alicia: Like this is just what I do. And I repeat those affirmations, like it is safe for me to go to bed. It is like I am ready to go to bed. I sleep when I desire to sleep. So like all of those have been really like helpful and especially like if I wake up in the middle of the night, like I go back to saying those things to myself again.

Alicia: And I love that that has now been, you know, programming that I'm now doing for myself to help. So that was huge. So thank you for.

Nick: Yeah, I, I'm glad it helped. It's one of those strange things where like, I feel that there's a misunderstanding about affirmations a lot. And I don't wanna get in, whether it's a gender thing or anything like that, but I know being male I understand more from my background and like how my peers view things like that.

Nick: And typically they don't have as much of an understanding of it. But I think across the board it kind of gets lost in translation a lot cuz it's like you just say something and it becomes true and it's like, okay, it sounds kind of fluffy, right? Like it sounds amazing. Sure, I want a million dollars.

Nick: Is it true? No, but it's more about that pattern you're creating something in your brain. You're rewiring your brain. So that way whether it's

Erin: the rewiring

Nick: Exactly, yeah. So if, whether it's like, I'm successful, I'm beautiful, I'm whatever you want to be, you keep saying it and then your brain starts to believe it over time.

Nick: It's like in school when you learn, you get told the same thing. That's how you know the information. Like if somebody shotguns how to do algebra on your face for the first time, you're not gonna remember it. How do you remember it? You go back, they tell you again. They tell you again. You internalize it.

Mary: Scientifically, that's creating the neuro neural pathways in your brain to understand, and you're reusing those pathways over and over and over again until becomes your lived in reality.

Nick: Right. And so it's, and it's, once you explain it that way, it's like, okay, I get it now. And that's what affirmations are. So why can't we borrow that kind of structure and behavior to work on ourselves in other ways for it to influence our behavior for the betterment of our emotional mental and physical life?

Erin: not Nick? Why not?

Nick: And so

Erin: Let's do it.

Nick: it turns out you, it turns out you can, yeah.

Mary: just, if you like, led a random like course once a week on Zoom, which you've only used two times. I would go to everyone, no matter what you were talking about, you could be like, today we're gonna talk about like the color of the wall behind me. And I'd be like, yes, Nick, tell me more.

Mary: You know, like you could like literally anything. Like I just feel

Nick: don't know if I

Mary: my Enneagram five is like I'm learning so much. This is amazing.

Alicia: It is amazing.

Nick: it. It's just pulling like all these random things that you hear throughout your life and and being like, does this apply to this topic? Can I make it apply? Is it good? Is it not? Does it pass a litmus test? If not, toss it or come back to it later. But just like, what can you use to get you out of whatever struggle you're in right now?

Nick: So my struggle was I was having trouble sleeping. And usually when you are like desperate or in a hard spot, you find motivation a little bit easier because it's like your body like kicks in and your brain kicks in, your survival kicks in. And people in survival situations tend to be a lot more creative, which is

Erin: I was just seeing something that was. The worst, like if the situation is, is has like worse things, then you're more like, you can actually take action in it. if it's like passable, you're like, eh, like, you know, maybe it's like a, a, a job that you're like, I mean, like, it's not the worst. So like, I guess I'll just put up with it.

Erin: But if it is like the worst, then, you know, to take action and to actually make.

Nick: Absolutely. I think nowadays too, like with that line of thought, we know what we can endure and we know what we can take, like we can take little hits all the time, but if you have something really pressing, like survival, like it, it triggers that part of your brain. You're like, I don't know if I'll survive this.

Nick: Suddenly your brain's like, all right, we're getting out of it. And then, then that's what I felt. I knew that I couldn't keep taking those hits long term in college, and so I had to find a solution. Thankfully I did. And I borrowed some mechanisms of like the affirmations and things like that, that to help get through.

Nick: And I also learned I can then do that for other parts of my h my life or other behaviors that like, Hey, I do this thing. it's not really what I want to do, or like maybe I could be better at it. So can I use ideas like that to help curve that behavior and make it more where I want it to be or where I I would like to be?

Alicia: And I think that

Nick: and it works

Alicia: power of mindset, like, and so many people like just think mindset is like, oh, I'm a

Mary: Is a fluffy

Alicia: a negative person. And it's like, no, your mindset, like your mindset controls everything because if you have a limited lacking, Mindset. You don't understand the capabilities of what's possible for yourself because you keep yourself stuck in your, your habits stuck habitually where you're

Nick: Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And it, it's, it's tough cuz like Aaron just mentioned, toxic positivity. I don't know if I've heard that term before, but I love it. Because I think it labels it really, really right . And so like, it's more than just, and I guess I'm thinking about it like it's more than just the idea of like, I'm gonna get a good night's sleep tonight,

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Nick: end of store.

Nick: You say it once, maybe twice throughout the day, like things that you want to happen, take work. It's just how it

Erin: And then when they don't, you're like, when it doesn't work out, you're like, and you didn't get a good night's sleep. You're like, ah, this is shit. Like, it

Nick: It didn't work. Oh my God.

Mary: Yeah.

Nick: But it really takes will willpower. I think at the end, end of the day, no matter what your strategy is, you have to have the mental fortitude to get through it. And I think that's one of the missing pieces that might be room for improvement for a lot of people, including myself.

Nick: Like I wish I had unlimited willpower. I definitely do not. So it's another resource that you kind of have to allocate and use where it's most pressing or for whatever solution that you need the most at the time.

Erin: Yeah. It helps you to really like prioritize.

Nick: Yeah, absolutely. So that's, I, I kept doing that. I kept telling myself this is the time I have to go to bed. This is the time I have to go to bed. And I noticed it took a little bit, like, I'm not gonna lie, it, it took like a, a week or two or something of constantly doing it, but I never gave up doing it.

Nick: And then when you finally lay in bed, your body knows, cuz it's had a hard day, right? You've been to the gym, you've been to classes, you're mentally, physically exhausted. And now it doesn't focus on the hallway noises, it doesn't focus on the silence immediately around me with people having fun on the outside.

Erin: Mm oof.

Nick: let's go to bed, let's get ready for tomorrow, let's get refreshed. If you're gonna make it through this, you have to be able to do this. And it just worked and I'm very thankful for it cuz I don't know if I could have got through without it. And it took a couple of weeks, but then I started to notice my energy levels.

Nick: improving. My focus was improving. I was less anxious overall. Cuz like deprivation of sleep leads to a lot of medical issues or at least

Erin: was gonna say, yeah, like can we, can we go into like the nervous system, you know, like I feel like that's what Sleep and Rest really lean into is supporting that natural system that like we have and we don't always treat it with the loving kindness that, that we can. So yeah. I would love to, to dive further

Mary: have a question. That I think connects to that. If it's okay to ask you, Nick. So like a brief personal anecdote, when I went to graduate school, I started in a part-time grad program that was gonna take three years. And after the first year, I was like not doing this for three years. So I accelerated to finish within the next year.

Mary: So I was taking more than a full-time load of graduate courses while also doing a full-time

Nick: Look at your go. That's awesome.

Mary: Well, we'll, we'll get there while also doing a full-time internship while also working a full-time job that by the time that I hit the end of that I was like, It took me, I think a year for my body to physically recover, like I was a year into working in the field that I had entered.

Mary: And I'm curious what that ex, like if you felt a similar experience. Because I did not have the discipline for sleep hygiene in that way. My discipline was instead of to make every single Lego piece of my life connect, so I am showing up at my job, showing up at my internship, meaningfully going to class, and also like doing as well as I can and want to in class while also like being a semi-active participant in my friendships and relationships.

Mary: It was like during my waking hours I was like, okay, from this time to this time, you're doing this, this, this, this, this, this, this. So then I think I was just exhausted. So every night I like crashed and did it again,

Nick: Yeah.

Mary: and so I didn't have that discipline of like, Restful sleep. I think something that I was really hearing from you in your like journey and experience was that the rest, that the sleep that you were getting also was restful because it was so intentional.

Mary: Whereas mine was just like, my battery was at like negative 800 and it was like, must recharge and I recharged to 10 to go back to negative 800 the next day. So it was an intentional rest and it took me a year to get back to that place where I was like, wow, like you can slow down. And I think my, my nervous system took a huge hit.

Mary: So I'm curious what that experience, like if you had a similar experience or if you noticed that shift for you when you transitioned out of graduate school into your working job application and life. I mean, I know we talked about how life applies in that way and then how that tied into your nervous system.

Mary: I'm very curious if you don't mind talking about that.

Nick: yeah, absolutely. Extremely draining. Like I'm not surprised at all that you were just, your body in was just devastated. Like you have a certain amount of, and once

Mary: Excellent description.

Nick: I'm not I'm not a physician, right? And so I'm gonna use some terms loosely, so don't hold 'em to face value on this section.

Nick: Cuz it's not my expertise. But like, the way that I think about it conceptually is that we have a lot of resources in our body. Like once again, I'm a video game player. I play like age of empires and things like this where like you build civilizations, but you need wood, you need food, you need gold, stone, whatever.

Nick: You have these resources that you need to make stuff happen. When you have a lot of resources, you're doing really well when you're constantly straight out all the time or stressing your body and not able to get sleep. Not rest, but sleep to re get these resources back and recover some of them you deplete yourself.

Nick: And when you start running on empty, basically your body's gonna have to pull energy from somewhere, and it starts to be from other parts of your body. Whether it starts breaking down muscle or things like that, it's gonna get the energy to do the task, but it's now at a different cost. You go to like a, like a farmer's market or something, and you bring some money.

Nick: Everybody has this common currency. That's the common resource. You buy so much stuff, you run outta money, but you still need things. So what do you do? You start to barter, you start to trade other things that you might need to get the other things you need right now versus later. And so like there's a cost to that and a long-term cost to it, and a short-term cost to it.

Nick: And so once you've deplete your resources, I'm not surprised at all that you just, you said it took like a year before you felt like, okay. , I've got my resources back. I'm not surprised at all and I definitely identify it cuz that was still happening to me. Like getting the sleep and figuring that out and rewiring my brain for it wasn't like, okay, now everything's fine, the world is fine, nothing's on fire.

Nick: Cuz you still have the anxiety and stress of just the daily grind for it. But it did make it more manageable and I was able to get a steady income of those resources every night. It wasn't much, but it was enough to get through. So I definitely identify with it. You created that sustainability in the marathon, knowing that it was, you know, kind of that,

Mary: Hmm.

Erin: a little bit of that depletion in the moment, but like doing what you could to know that on the other side of this, this wasn't something that you were gonna have to put yourself through again.

Nick: right. It's, and.

Mary: the marathon ended, so thus your training for it could adjust.

Erin: Ooh.

Nick: Exactly. And it's one of those things like, and I still tell myself this when I'm in a hard situation nowadays and it's, it's not for forever. It's just for now, just thinking that or saying it out loud in a tough spot for me helps a lot cuz it reminds myself like, this is really hard now. But it, I'm working towards the goal to make this not the forever, the important thing is like, don't lie to yourself, like have a plan, but know that if there's a, a bridge of time that you have to gap to get to that plan till when it's better.

Nick: You can, for me, like that phrase helps me get through it. Cuz mentally it justifies the current actions which is like a different topic and you gotta be careful

Erin: could be, again, the, the actions of the bartering and the,

Mary: Yeah.

Erin: the whatnot to, to try to maintain or survive to get to that. Mm.

Nick: Yeah, absolutely. It's just all these little mental tricks to help you get through tough times. And I still use it today, like at my job I was promoted up to the pharmacist in charge, which was nice, but the last one was gone for like a month and a half or something before they officially ended up leaving.

Nick: And then we had a director who was let go very suddenly. And so we had a new director and I had just gotten my new position and we had just gotten, I'll say two and a half new pharmacist that now I'm in charge of training. I'm in charge of doing all this stuff, the director's coming in, and I have to help them with their responsibilities while they get up to speed.

Nick: And I'm getting pulled in all of these directions. And I think I was pulling like 120 hour. Pay cycles for a couple of months. And I knew that when I got those people up and trained and in the position, if I did a good job, my time wouldn't on those topics wouldn't have to be used as much. And if it was turning like one person, I think it would've been manageable.

Nick: But like we had two brand new pharmacists and then somebody who had been there for a little bit of time but didn't know kind of the higher level type stuff. Or needed a little bit more coaching on, Hey, how do I do this in this situation? What do I do? And we had a few new technicians as well.

Nick: Which we have a great supervising tech, so they did most of the work and I just kind of like did minor course corrections, so n less effort. But I had this time period where I was just doing crazy hours and it was absolutely draining, but I knew it's not for forever. It's just for right now. And then when I got home, get a good night's sleep or ready yourself for battle.

Nick: Get in there, get it done. And now we're at a point where they're pretty self-sufficient. The whole place is running a lot better. It was just, I'll call it a short two months, a short burst of a lot of energy upfront. But I was able to get through and by just saying it's not for, it's just for right now.

Nick: And also making sure that when I was at my. I could get those resources back by sleeping. It really helped a lot. So that's just a very recent example of how those things kind of play together. We have, so you guys wanted to talk a little bit more the sciencey side of, of sleep? Sleep def deprivation and stuff?

Nick: I can go into it to a certain level because of my expertise. It only goes so far. I did some prep cuz I figured you guys were gonna ask about it. But once again, my understanding is only to a certain point. So just started off with that. So like, as you guys know, there's a few different stages of sleep, right?

Nick: Like you have, you're awake, you have light rest. You go into REM and then you go into deep sleep are typically the four stages. Light rest is like you lay down for a nap, hasn't really gone anywhere yet. It's like 15, maybe 15 minutes in. And then you fall into REM sleep, which is rapid eye movement sleep, which is when you look over at somebody, your partner who, whoever in their eyes, eyelids are just like closed, but their eyes going crazy.

Nick: And that's like the beginning, that's like stage three and it's beginning of like the rest, full sleep. And then it transitions into deep sleep, which is where they think that most of your resources start coming back. That's where your body starts really regenerating. Like that's seems to be for all knowledge right now that like that's your regenerative spot, but it takes a couple of hours typically to get there.

Nick: So you gotta be, be able to stay asleep long enough and comfortably enough to be able to reach it. Some people sleep and they don't get it. most people do, but if you stay asleep for a few hours, you usually end up in it. But it's important to kind of stack the deck to be able to get to that point so you get that regenerative time span to get your resources

Erin: we stack the deck, Nick?

Nick: So I'm glad you asked.

Erin: Yay.

Nick: different ways we'll go into stacking the deck and then we'll go into some of the the negative side effects of like not much sleep if you guys want. So there there's simple things to, that you can do to stack the deck we've already talked about. The big one is just if you can change your mindset, you can change your behavior, and if you can change your behavior, you can change your outcome.

Nick: If you change your outcome, you can change your life, right? So like changing the mindset. I'm in bed, I'm here to sleep. That's it. And I know it's so prevalent now. You guys have heard that same thing, reworded in just the world. You probably have heard it like your bed is for two things, sleep and sex, that's it.

Nick: Stay off your phones. Don't do anything overly activating. Just do that. The explanation behind it we kind of talked about is cuz it's important that your brain knows that if you're laying in bed, you have two behaviors. If you're not doing one of them, you should be doing the other one or you should be out of bed and that's it.

Nick: So that's like the explanation that

Erin: So like leaning into like the, the, having that as like the, the physical environment and like that's the boundary of that physical environment of you saying like,

Nick: Exactly.

Erin: it's the bed. That's what you do. If you're doing something else, go somewhere else.

Nick: exactly. And that, and that kind of moves into so that's like what common culture. , right. But we've already talked about the reasons behind why it's important as far as like changing your mindset to change your life. Right? The next thing is you can stack the deck by like taking a hot shower bath.

Nick: So it seems to be like, I don't know about you, but my friends are like 50 50, whether they shower at night or in the morning. I'm a morning shower person cuz I look greasy, gross. I don't feel like I'm ready for the day unless I get ready in the morning. But I

Erin: but then ending the day with that warm hot water hug in the bath or the shower, ugh.

Nick: I gotta say, I, I wish, and this is something I can work on, I guess with my mindset, cuz if I

Erin: I'm so.

Nick: a hot shower, hot bath at the end of the night, it actually helps promote better, deeper sleep with the reasoning being that your body naturally over time has evolved to, if you're going from a warmer status, like you're moving around and your muscles generate heat, when you move to a cooler status, like you're laying down, not moving, you're getting ready to go to bed and fall asleep, your brain, it's like a signal to them.

Nick: Like, Hey, this box is checked, right? Like this is step one of going to sleep. My body temperature is cooling down a little bit. So if you go from a hot shower, hot bath, anytime you get out you're, wherever you live is probably not as hot as the water you're using. So your core temperature and body temp is gonna drop a little bit naturally and it's gonna trigger one of those signals in your brain.

Nick: Hey, it might be time to sleep soon. Like, I've

Erin: why, like the opposite effect of like in the morning start with a cold shower that way, like your body's cold and then you're actively warming up and that's starting your day.

Nick: That makes a lot of sense. I've never tried it cuz I can't stand cold showers. I'll do it if I have to, but that would make sense. That'd be a fun thing to test. Or maybe not

Erin: it's interesting.

Alicia: say fun. I don't know about

Nick: that's a good point. I've never thought about that. That's a really good point.

Erin: It's a fun experiment. Let's try it.

Alicia: yes.

Nick: Ugh,

Mary: we go.

Nick: ice baths going from cold to hott and back to cold and hot.

Nick: Like have a lot of regenerative properties and like your muscles and

Mary: they

Nick: and they promote healing. So it might be something.

Erin: Mm.

Nick: But, so that's another thing you can do to stack the deck is if you're a nighttime shower person or a bath person, perfect. You're halfway there, you're already doing something.

Nick: It's kind of like clueing your brain into

Erin: there.

Nick: your brain is a checklist of like, if all of these boxes are checked is time for sleep. And that's like one of 'em. So I think of it kind of in a funny way that like your brain is like catching on to something slowly. Like you take a hut, shower or bath for night, you, and you go lay into bed and your brain's like, okay, we're doing this thing now.

Nick: You've also trained your brain to be like, if I'm in bed, it's for two things and then your brain. Okay, hold on. Maybe there's a trend starting, and then you can get like behavioral stuff. Like every time before I go to bed, I brush my teeth. So I go on, I do the same routine every night. And if you can get a routine on lockdown, it then triggers your brain to know, I know what happens next.

Nick: And so you start following through these patterns and your brain's like, wait, hold on, we we're doing this thing now. Wait, hold on, we're doing this now. I think I've seen this before. Wait, we're doing this third thing now. We're definitely going to sleep. Like I, I've got it. I've cracked the code, we're doing it.

Nick: And so you're

Erin: feels like you're working with your subconscious rather than working against it. Cuz when you work against it, that's when you get like the, the feelings of like anxiousness and, and all those other things. Cuz it's like I, this is unknown. Like what am I supposed to do?

Nick: It's almost like a kid in the, like your brain's, like a kid in the car driving to Disney World, who's been, they've been there like once before. So they start to, as you get

Erin: up those signs.

Nick: picking up the signs. They're like, wait a minute. Wait, is it, wait. Sleep time, let's go to bed. Like your brain's like catching on one step at a time as you give it little clues and breadcrumbs.

Nick: I don't know if it works like that. That's how my brain thinks of it, cuz that's how I enjoy to think of it.

Mary: Wow.

Erin: Hey, the breadcrumbs.

Alicia: Yeah.

Mary: it, and it all makes sense. You know, like there's no part, like I, this is, this relates I think, to the context thing that we were saying earlier on in our conversation, right? Was like the context that you provided there is so beautiful and it all makes sense. So naturally I'm like, yes, I wanna do these pieces of this that maybe I'm not yet doing, or that I look at a different way.

Mary: And I just think that context is so helpful for our generation who, who wants that and craves that and maybe didn't get as much of that when they were growing up. That this is a great place to, to start in developing that purposeful, restful sleep cycle with as much of that as we can truly control as human being.

Nick: Absolutely. And a as like we work through this list, you'll notice that like everybody does at least some of these, but you can stack the deck by doing more of them. So like one of the things that they say to you too is have you ever had the ch the time, like you go to bed, you're like, okay, it's bedtime.

Nick: You go to bed, you're in bed awake, and you just can't fall asleep.

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Nick: But do you know what you're supposed to do

Erin: frequently Get

Mary: you're supposed to leave your bed. You're supposed to

Nick: Exactly. Yeah. You're supposed to get up and do nons sleeping activities until you feel tired, then go back to bed.

Mary: Feels so counterintuitive.

Nick: It does because you, it's just reinforcing your brain thinking. That is for two things. I'm not doing either of them. I'm getting out of bed and it's tough because it's like, well then I'm just up all night.

Nick: It's like, well, don't go play video games. Don't go on your phone. Go

Erin: Hmm. Don't do like those stimulating

Nick: Yeah, exactly. Do something kind of low key. Don't watch something go grab a book. Maybe do a little bit of reading. Don't do it on something you're super interested in. Cuz then if you're, it's gonna activate your brain.

Nick: Right. But like, just do more relaxing activities and then when you fall back or when you feel sleepy, go to bed to go to sleep. And that's something else. I think a lot of people, especially nowadays with like TikTok and things, and I am, I've done this a lot where like you're in bed, you're just scrolling.

Nick: Right. It's a problem because not only does a screen activate like your eyes be and brain to be more. , but also now you're just constantly feeding bits of information that's interesting. And if it's not interesting, you just swipe the screen. Oh, look, something interesting. You're doing something that your brain loves to do and craves to do instead of going to sleep.

Nick: So your brain's gonna want to do that more instead of go to sleep. It's just more interesting.

Mary: Mm.

Nick: all right, let's see. Another big one is, and every, I think most people know this one, I don't know how well it's practiced, is like caffeine, right? Like if you, if the goal is to kind of calm your body down and go to bed, don't drink coffee anytime.

Nick: Near bedtime. It's supposed to be like four hours, four to six hours before bed. They say don't do it. I know people who can't have caffeine caffeine past noon because they say then they can't sleep. Maybe they're more sensitive. Maybe overall they drink less caffeine, so it lasts longer. Not sure, but everybody kind of has a sweet spot and learning to kind of respect your body and follow it and listen to your body is really the key to that one.

Nick: But that one kind of, I think everybody knows. Just maybe a little bit more following of the process. Same thing with

Erin: thinking about it and just start doing it. Mm-hmm.

Nick: Yeah, exactly. Like, oh yeah, it'd be great if I stop. I should really stop drinking coffee at 8:00 PM at night if I, no, I have to be into bed at 10 30. And then nine o'clock is still drinking coffee.

Nick: It just happens. Alcohol's another one and kind of in the same vein, but I don't know if people know why. alcohol at bed is a bad thing to do for sleep cuz like, alcohol's a depressant, right? So it slows your body down and it typically, if people have too much of it, it'll put you to sleep. It's not restful sleep, which is one of the many problems with it.

Nick: Another problem is like, although it can help put you to sleep, like if they have like a nightcap or something, they're like, oh, I can't fall asleep without a shot of whiskey, or whatever their poison happens to be, it might help them get to sleep. But the way that alcohol works in your body, it actually makes it far more easy to wake up in the middle of the night or wake up because you never, it prevents you from hitting those deeper levels and deeper stages that we talked about.

Nick: So you're far less likely to get that deep regenerative sleep. And you might not even hit REM sleep, depending on so cutting out. From like four to six hours, the same as caffeine before sleeping. It's gonna help a lot. Caffeine's intuitive, why you wanna cut it out. Alcohol, I feel like is less intuitive.

Nick: And so that's kind of the explanation of the understanding of it, of why it's a bad idea. Yeah. So

Mary: In

Erin: we should actually be educated on these things.

Mary: Yeah, socially. That's so interesting too, right? Because there's this like social dynamic that it's only right to engage in potentially drinking any sort of alcohol, I feel like in these like evening hours. But if you're in thinking of the

Erin: five o'clock

Mary: in the evening, right? Like you're going to bed at some point, so then how does that, I think socially has really helped to not get that information out there and not make that. Knowledgeable knowledge, accessible and also practiced because socially it's like, well, no, like it's, the sun has set go wild. Right? That's like what society's telling us. So that's really

Nick: Suns out, funds out.

Mary: yeah.

Nick: And a lot of people too, like coming from the medical world work like 12 hour shifts, they'll do like three or four of 'em a week. So if you're doing that, depending on when are you going, like you're not getting out till later. So you're only free time closely bumps up on those days to when you need to go to sleep. So a lot of people want to exercise their freedom and especially if they had a tough day, one of the ways. I've found people like to rebel almost and feel like they're free is to go and have a beer after work, do this, do whatever, and be like, oh, it's a tough day. Gonna have a shower, beer, or whatever it is.

Nick: Like they'll do that. But if they work longer days and then they have to be up soon and the days, the longer they are, the more taxing and more resources they deplete, the more important that they need to hit that deep sleep. But if they have to go to bed in four hours and they get home from when they get home and they're drinking beer, drinking alcohol, it's really gonna compromise their body's ability to get that deep regenerative sleep and it's gonna make their future days even tougher.

Nick: Cuz they're doing the same thing with less resources. And over time it's slowly gonna dwindle down the resources to the point where mayor was talking about where. You need like a year to recover. Cuz once they're so low or depleted, it does take a long time to build those resource banks back up.

Nick: So I think

Erin: Yeah. It's modifying that behavior.

Nick: absolutely. And so I think it's a really smart point that you had brought up about like socially, it's almost like I don't think that they're trying not to give the info out, but it kind of feels like it cuz like a lot of social cues really reinforce that kind of behavior, but that behavior is causing this other problem as well.

Nick: And it's happened through all generations. I think millennials are more likely to do something like that. It's just something that they're, they're known for, for whatever reason. But it really does

Erin: I've seen, I've, I feel like my circle has like people I follow on Instagram and and beyond and whatnot. I've seen kind of like a stepping back and stepping away from that and like a, a chosen whether it's like fully, you know, like a chosen, like fully sober life or just like being intentional with their drinking and whatnot, rather than how it's been portrayed as, right.

Erin: Like again, ugh, I've had a bad day. Let me get a drink cuz that's gonna make it feel better. Like, I feel like that's what was. Like, I feel like we started out in that way because that's what was shown to us and modeled to us as that's how you cope, that's how you deal with, with tough times. Or having like, you know, whether it be rough emotions or, or just happenings.

Erin: And then being able to recognize like, okay, well that actually isn't helpful and I don't actually like how this makes me feel because personally, like I typically feel worse drinking alcohol like in the moment, let alone the aftermath. You know? So, and like that can even just be down to one beer. And, and so just having that self-awareness to, to be able to make that, make that shift, I think is, is something that I'm seeing growing

Alicia: I think that's self-awareness, right? That's self, that's self-awareness growing. Like I am able to say like, when I do this, it doesn't make me feel great. Therefore, in the future I'm going to choose to not. Yeah. So it's just that like conscious choice of whether, one, are you aware that you're doing it?

Alicia: How does it make you feel? And then two, like if it's not great, can you consciously choose d?

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's definitely interesting being linked to, you know, like younger people and thinking about how, like, I've seen this happen and, you know, like young teens say all the time of like, oh, I can't wait till so I can just, you know, drink cuz I've just had such a bad day and I just wish that I could just have a drink to, to wrap up my day.

Erin: And I'm like, why, why is that what you think is, is gonna be helpful and restorative and restful and helpful?

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Erin: And, and so I think that that. I like to think that that's part of that, that shift of, all right, well, let's change what we're modeling as soci as a society, and it has to start individually. It has to start with that, again, that self-awareness, as Alicia said,

Nick: Absolutely. And it goes back to the whole like wearing badges of honor, like strange badges of honor. So like we had talked about how on average it's the amount of sleep per night that people are getting in the US has been cut back an hour, which is bad cuz you're expected to get, most people need seven to eight hours, somewhere in there.

Nick: Where eight seems to be the more commonly cited number. But now we're back to six, six and a half, maybe seven on average. So we've cut out a really crucial, crucial amount of time during that. Deep sleep where you get the resources back. And for some reason, societally we wear it like a badge of honor.

Nick: Like, oh man, I'm getting by on six hours of sleep or four hours of sleep. And like, I used to do this in college and I used to think like, I can sleep when I die. Like I can do this. Like, and I'm like, because I remember my classmates, man, wow, you only got like two hours of sleep and you just crushed that exam.

Nick: I'm like, yeah, I did. Like, you know what I mean? It makes me feel good. You're like, I'm awesome. But it's the exact opposite of what your body really needs to stay performing at a decent level, let alone like a high level or even Yeah. And I'm thinking about like how you did that for, you know, for, for a couple of years. Right. But like, what about the people who do this for their entire lifetime? And we wonder why, you know, there's so many health ailments and, and you know, people aren't able to live their lives fully because of this inability to access rest and regenerative sleep.

Erin: You know, I think about, I think about Karen falling asleep at the desk every day, every night, you know, cuz she's working for, for forever. Like, I just, I don't, I'm like, she's different. Like, how do, how can

Alicia: Well, and it's it, you say this, right? And it's like what Nick was saying about like when you barter, like right, if you have these resources and now you're bartering for things that you need later on, and that like you do that long term, like how that manifests as disease and sickness and illness in your body because you've depleted from those areas and we're not accessing the stor, like the restorative sleep to rebuild.

Mary: yeah,

Erin: Ooh, restorative. Restorative has rest in it. Hmm.

Mary: I even think about that with the bartering, the resources, like using myself as that example. I remember during that wild time of my life where I was doing all of those things, I also ended up like training for a 10 miler in the city that I was living in and a 10 mile run. And I didn't, I wasn't dedicated to the training.

Mary: I would like run every now and then, but I didn't build up the consistency. And I remember a friend saying like, you look like that you have been like training, right? Like, you look like you're ready for this. And I was like, no. In my mind I thought, no. My body right now is being powered solely by stress and anxiety.

Mary: So I'm using these stores of truly what I felt like on my body, like weight and muscle to power me through everything else. So maybe on the outside it looks like that I'm like ready to perform, but internally I was. I was wrecked and it took like, it was that next year, like that's a true, lived in, I, I vividly remember this conversation with my friend, like where I was, what was happening when I had that recollection of like, oh no, like this isn't, you're not as well as you hope to be because you've been utilizing these, like your resources are so depleted and like you need time to slowly build them back.

Nick: Absolut. and then like going back to the social pressures, like with your friends being like, oh, you look ready, you look like you can do this. You can do, it's like positively positive reinforcement for like a bad behavior. And then because like they can't, they can't feel how you feel inside. All they can do is look on the outside and make your best judgment call or what they think the evidence is leading to, oh, she looks ready, she looks great.

Nick: But inside you're like, I would die if I did this. Like there's no way. It's the same way

Mary: was like, races, we're gonna see what happens. Like

Nick: but yet you have all these social pre positive pressures, like not purposely doing it, but like just reinforcing behaviors like that.

Alicia: Yeah. Well I think that for me, that goes back to like why never compli, like saying something about somebody's body, right? Like I remember when I was the smallest in my body and people would be like, oh my God, you look great. And I'm like, I am severely depressed and haven't like been able to eat food. So like you complimenting me and saying like, this is the best I've ever looked is really shitty because this is the worst I've ever been in my mental health.

Alicia: Like ever.

Nick: And it's tough cuz like they don't know, they, they don't feel what you're feeling. So they're trying to, they think they're doing something nice, right? They're like, oh, I'm gonna give a compliment. And kind of just like another wound that you're, you're gonna have to deal with, right?

Mary: Yeah.

Nick: I like that you bring up food cuz that's actually a big way that you can stack the deck too, is that your body needs to replenish these resources.

Nick: You do it in a little bit in rem in deep sleep, but you need the basic building blocks to be able to do that. So you need to eat right, have a good diet try to eat healthier. Like I'm not, I don't eat the healthiest, right? Like we all kind of do whatever. But I try to geared more towards eating healthier stuff.

Nick: And I've noticed that when I do, I definitely reflect in my energy levels and my mood. I feel less.

Erin: Mm-hmm.

Nick: And I think like not only is that just like knowing that, like I know I'm eating healthy, so I feel better, but also I think a lot of it is, and the data backs us up where you're getting more of those building blocks to really replenish more resources over those nights during deep sleep than you would've before.

Nick: Like if you eat McDonald's versus if you eat like a healthy salad or something like that. Or like a whole grain bowl or like a quinoa salad. Like which do you think is probably healthier and you're, your body's gonna be able utilize energy better with probably not the first one. And it's just cuz you're giving the right types of nutrients to your body.

Nick: And we do that

Erin: I feel like there's such a strong link that's coming out between gut health and, and like, and health. Well, yeah, like gut health, like the link between the gut health and the mental health or like the, the brain power and you know, all of those, all of the things that, that come from that, because that's, Where your brain's getting those resources is from your gut.

Erin: So what are you putting into it?

Nick: Exactly. You are what you eat, right? Yes.

Erin: Again, but like more sayings that, that have just become so cliche that they get said and overused, but without the context,

Mary: yeah, you're not thinking about it.

Erin: without that extra, you know, 60 seconds of energy to explain and that extra 60 seconds of energy to receive

Mary: And maybe the, and maybe the people in our lives never had that extra 60 seconds of energy because they weren't getting that restful sleep because of all of these other factors in their life. And now we're healing all of that through this

Erin: Ugh. The power of rest,

Alicia: Yeah. And I think this is, I think this is so

Erin: is like a masterclass.

Mary: This is a masterclass. Maybe that's what it is. Nick,

Alicia: oh my gosh. You have

Mary: I'm pushing this onto you cuz I'm like, I need more

Erin: I know, I know. I'm like, we're our, our time is up and I'm like, I still have so many questions. I wanna get into so much more.

Mary: I know.

Alicia: Well, I think so. We can move into like our, wrapping this up. So I just wanna acknowledge like I love how the. Set. Like our first conversation was the power of rest and how we talked about like rest is not sleep. Like you have so many different ways to be able to rest and slow down and pause in your day-to-day.

Alicia: And then I love that this interview really highlighted sleep and the power that comes from like the, the healing that can come from actually changing your sleep habits and how these two things

Erin: hygiene

Alicia: yeah. How they really come together, how having that passive and active rest during the day and this intentional

Mary: each other. Right. When you're able to give yourself passive and active rest, I think you're then able to prepare for a night of sleep. And when you're able to get a night of sleep, you're then more likely to give off that passive and active rest during the day. It's that. It's the circle of

Nick: Absolutely.

Alicia: Yeah.

Mary: of

Alicia: So our last thing that we usually ask our, our guest is like, if there, if there was somebody saying like, okay, I wanna improve this, what would be like the next step? Like what would be their first step in, in wanting to make a difference?

Nick: Gotcha. I I have one request before I answer that, I just want to go over in one or two sentences, kind of the negative side effects of like not getting sleep. And I, I won't go into them much, but I'll just cite the topics

Mary: I'm also feeling Nick, that like you're gonna come back on

Erin: Yeah. Oh yeah. We gotta, we gotta talk about supplements. We gotta talk, we gotta talk about a

Mary: Yes. Yes.

Nick: So if your body doesn't get enough sleep, you get really, really stressed. Stress affects your health in a lot of ways. Namely, cardiovascularly, your body's gonna be disaster, can lead to stroke, heart attack, things like that. It can lead to things like anxiety and stress and anxiety further help or make it harder to fall asleep.

Nick: And it's kinda like a vicious cycle. It can lead to depression if it's over long term and it can lead to like a lower libido, like a lower sex drive as well. And if you look at what are society's common problems, now that we know that we're getting an hour less of sleep, depression, anxiety, stress, cardiovascular issues it causes issues with your body that may lead or increases rate of or chance of having Diabetes has all these long lasting problems and they're all linked back to not getting enough restful sleep.

Nick: So really, really important topic. Next step and first step is if you haven't already, you need to rewire your brain. Tell yourselves through the self affirmation things that we kind of talked about, like tonight when I go to bed, I'm going to bed at this time, I'm gonna be asleep for these amount of hours roughly.

Nick: And tell yourself that throughout the day when you're in bed, lights off in bed. Don't pick up your phone, don't do anything. Tell yourself, we'll say 20, 25 times throughout your workday. Go to bed at this time. Go to bed at this time. Do it for a few days. See if it works. But usually it's gonna take a couple of weeks and just rewire your brain and allow yourself to have the chance to succeed with getting deeper sleep.

Nick: So,

Alicia: Give yourself the chance to succeed. Wow, Nick,

Erin: damn Nick.

Alicia: I'm sure everybody now agrees at the end of this episode. Alicia was right. Nick is one of the

Erin: most intelligent people,

Alicia: Yes. Yes. You're welcome.

Erin: I appreciate you being

Nick: disagree, but I appreciate it.

Alicia: No, no.

Erin: I feel like I am so blessed to, to have you in my life and the, the authentic level of conversations that you and I have had. You know, I feel like that that is such a strength that you and I have practiced, that I've been able to just effortlessly roll that into how, you know, we function, how Mary Alicia and I function within our friendships, let alone in our business.

Erin: So like, it is just so, like powerful and affirming to have you here and to have these conversations. And I definitely agree that we're gonna continue to have these, these conversations and, and to grow because it is just, if you're not having conversations like this, like you're really missing out

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Erin: of, of just being, you know, as, as reflective and honest and upfront as as possible.

Erin: And that's just so powerful.

Nick: Conversation is conversations and ideas change and run the world. And so I like, and I feel so happy that I'm able to have people like you in my life where I can have these good conversations and go over these topics to help better the world and better ourselves. So I really appreciate you guys having me on.

Nick: Yeah.

Erin: Thanks Nick. Oh

Mary: Oh my God.

Erin: All right.

Alicia: Yes,

Erin: We're gonna give

Alicia: we all cry because of Nick being the nicest person.

Erin: He

Mary: Top five, smartest person. Top five, nicest person. Just the list is unending. Renaissance, sn,

Alicia: Yes. That's it. That's true. So thank you so much Nick. You have provided us and our audience with so much a wealth of knowledge, like

Nick: it was helpful.

Mary: because I will actively take

Alicia: see you next month. Nick.

Mary: Yeah.

Nick: And you'll find out just how little

Mary: you doing tomorrow? I have more questions. Hey Nick, I got a question.

Alicia: Oh my gosh.

Mary: just want your perspective.

Erin: Sounds like we should continue this in our start doing with us community.

Alicia: Yeah. And

Mary: does. I say yes.

Alicia: yeah. So if you want to join our start Doing with us Community, this is the perfect time. You can join for the first month for free and get cheered on and supported by us on a weekly basis.

Erin: education. Get some uplifting and empowerment, because that is what

Mary: beautiful knowledge

Alicia: Yes. It's

Erin: Oh boy.

Mary: game changing.

Erin: All right, Nick. So we're gonna count down and then we sign off by saying, okay. We love you. Bye. And you're gonna join us in

Alicia: us,

Nick: Okay.

Alicia: you can.

Erin: Yeah. No, I'm telling him that he's doing that

Nick: Am I doing the

Erin: He's used to

Nick: it

Alicia: No. Well,

Erin: We all do it together, right?

Erin: We're gonna count down. We're gonna go 3, 2, 1.

Alicia: Okay. We

Mary: we love you. Bye.