Building the LinkedIn of the Creator Economy with Brian Freeman from Creatorland

The Business of Creators is a podcast for content creators and everyone interested in the creator economy. On this show Ian Shepherd speaks with the pioneers shaping the industry and digs deeper to get the scoop on new ways to create, distribute and monetize content.

Ian is co-founder of Electrify Video Partners,  a company investing $m in established creators to accelerate their growth. Check out electrify.video.

In the latest episode Ian speaks with Brian Freeman, the founder of Creatorland. Brian is building the LinkedIn for content creators and he explains: 

• The core mission and vision of the platform and how it differs from traditional platforms like LinkedIn
• How creators are already using Creatorland to grow their business including some early success stories and 
• How he’s building partnerships to help brands reach out to creators

Please go check it out and subscribe to the show for more interviews from industry leaders shaping the Creator Economy. 

Transcript

Brian Freeman  0:00  
The largest first party database of creators, their analytics, interests past work and data associated with this space.

Ian Shepherd  0:07  
Welcome to the business of creators, the leading podcast for anyone that wants to know more about the Creator economy. Now in today's episode, I speak with Brian Freeman from creator land. Brian is building the LinkedIn for content creators, and he explains the core mission and vision of the platform and how it differs from traditional platforms like LinkedIn, how creators are already using creator land to grow their businesses, including some early success stories, and how he's building partnerships to help brands reach out to creators. You're in for a real treat with this episode. Before we get into the show. I want to tell you about electrify video partners, a business I co founded that invest millions of dollars into YouTube channels such as Veritasium. If you want a business partner to grow your YouTube channel, or you're wondering how much your channel could be worth, check us out at electrify dot video and get in contact, right? Let's get on with the show. So today on the podcast. I'm joined by Brian Freeman from creator land. Welcome to the podcast.

Brian Freeman  1:04  
Thank you. Stoked to be here.

Ian Shepherd  1:05  
Great. So for everybody listening, can you explain exactly what is creator land?

Brian Freeman  1:10  
We talk about it in a couple different ways, whether it's the land of opportunity, but I think the easiest way to think about it is like LinkedIn, 2.0 for the Creator economy. So we are, first and foremost, a professional network. So in some ways, you can think about us like a town hall, like, Where does everybody in the space go to build long term relationships with each other? Show off their professional showcase. We provide an enterprise level analytics dashboard for people who want to sync their social accounts and make that more discoverable, and a central trusted inbox, so a place where when you're getting a message, you can believe it's coming from somebody who might have an opportunity for you, or could be another awesome creator that you might want to collab with or or just get to know better. So we're really trying to fill a gap in a world where 99% of content creators don't use LinkedIn, and so they don't necessarily have this fluid environment to build great, long term relationships and scale up their careers. Wow,

Ian Shepherd  2:06  
that's fascinating. And so can you explain to everybody how it's sort of different from a traditional social network like LinkedIn? So

Brian Freeman  2:14  
we break this down. I mean, LinkedIn has done some pretty cool stuff, like, let's let's not take away from linkedins, not that you are 900 million users and awesome trajectory and billions of dollars in value, not to mention the value they create, you know, I also want to say, like, personally, I benefited massively from LinkedIn, you know, built a decent following there. You know, when I got to LA I grew up in San Diego. I didn't come from a super connected family and tech and everything. I grew up building computers and built my own first website at 11, and like, I love that, you know, I love that world, but I didn't have access to it. So, you know, I didn't get going in my career as an entrepreneur in tech till later on. And when I did move to LA we went through a program called Tech Stars, and I really leaned into the networking at that point, primarily through LinkedIn. And so we had Google Sheets of all the mentors for the program, which are these, like amazing people from all around the world that are leaning in to help these entrepreneurs going through the program. And I hired a virtual assistant to connect with every single one of them on LinkedIn. There are hundreds of them. I didn't have time, but went crazy. My co founders and I traded contacts, and we all blast each other's networks and and then from there, it became the place that I did business development celebrate the successes of the company. You know, if I met somebody on a phone call, boom, there's a LinkedIn request, you know. So I was always like a hyper networker using a product like that. And so we think about, how does creator land compare? We do can want you to be able to connect with people of similar interests, past and future collaborators. So we have a great tool for connecting your Gmail context and helping you identify those people who might have just hit you over email for something. And maybe it wasn't a fitter maybe never even saw it, but dang, it'd be great to be on their radar for the next time they have something to hire you for a showcase of a creative portfolio versus kind of a conversion of a LinkedIn has done a decent job of this, but it's like a paper resume in a very shareable network format. We think about it through more of a creative lens, so more of like a creative case studies, highlights of special moments that are linked to social So, and that could be a blog post, or that YouTube video that went more viral than the others, or one of those branded collabs that you just absolutely love. You feel like you killed it on and you'd like to be hired for more pieces of work like that. One of the things we found is just most of the history of hired content creator work lives on drives or in Google Sheets or in PDFs somewhere, or in a case study for an agency to a client, and it doesn't, it doesn't live in a discoverable place, and so you don't have a real great chance to show off all of that work. Work, or just be organically found. When someone's looking through the histories of, you know, what's possible out there, and how, you know, what are beauty creators doing right now, or what are anime creators doing right now on YouTube? And like, what's working, you know, we want to build a central place for that. So that's how we think about the portfolio. We've also looked through it, like, how can it be a little cooler? You know, LinkedIn has been around a while. It's a 2003 design in a lot of ways, and not again, to take away from it, but we want to look at this through a little bit more of a modern lens. And then the last thing is, our goal here, like LinkedIn has done for the knowledge world, is be the largest first party database of creators, their analytics interests past work and data associated with this space, which we think can build a really, a much more exciting world to participate in, because your career pathway could be just a little bit shorter by having access to a tool like this. Got it. I love it.

Ian Shepherd  5:55  
I mean, as someone who's worked with creators for more than 10 years now, I can see a real need to standardize their resumes, as you say, and whether it's brand partnerships or kind of how their contents evolved, there's real value in that. What inspired you to set up creator land.

Brian Freeman  6:11  
So I think that I can kind of tell a little bit about my story. But, you know, I think first and foremost, I wanted to like, like Ian from LinkedIn, once the, you know, Eureka moment kind of came together, we wanted to be able to offer that type of opportunity to others. And that that's really where it comes from, is, is making the space more accessible for everybody. But how we got here was so actually fell into the Creator economy accidentally. Back in 2015 I had co founded a dating app, which was a female focused dating app, the first of its kind. There really weren't those before, before this business is called wildfire, and we started doing college rollouts because we heard that that was a good thing to do, and an emergent behavior that we saw from San Diego the young women in sororities at San Diego State was in order to win a contest, who could get the most people signed up on the app, they posted on Instagram. And so we did a bunch of college rollouts after that. Each one of them focused on how many Instagram posts can we get? And this is 2013 and 2014 so Instagram, back then, was your friends, meme accounts and celebs. You know, there wasn't this like and bachelor people. So it wasn't this, like, middle category of micro influencers and all of that. You know, it just wasn't that. So this was, like, pretty novel. Whoa, what's she posted? Oh, I'll check it out. That's cool. So unfortunately, bumble came out at the end of 2014 and the dating business. I didn't know this at the time. I know it now, the dating business is like starting a casino in Vegas in the 60s, but you're not part of the mob. You're going to get whacked. It's just a matter of time. This is a very special world that knows what they're doing and everybody else doesn't. And you need these special things. You need to know how it works, or else you're just going to you're just not going to be able to succeed. And that was true for us. So once we couldn't raise another round, it was clear that Bumble was going to become this breakout, awesome success, great founder, great brand. There they were women, we were dudes, so there's like, a big leg up, and just being more so closely associated with the customer, for sure, I you know, it was either kind of shut the company down completely, or look for an opportunity to pivot into something and so as an experiment, you know, I thought, well, you know, we got these young women to post for us, maybe they'll post for somebody else. And, you know, frankly, I was missing rent. It was tough times. And so desperation comes great ideas sometimes. And so we started running some experiments, and turned out that that was a thing. And so we ended up building that business, scaling it to a half million creators. That's what I went through TechStars for, really getting to understand the space for 1000s of brands. And it was a really great learning experience. And it taught me a few things about what works in this space and where it becomes very hard to scale a company to on this, you know, service side, it's very challenging. You know, if you want to manage payment, that's very challenging, like so, so really getting to see how we could build a really cool product, where we got to see the past work with the people who were working with the company. And we ended up 300,000 creators ended up going through various campaigns over the years, and we had all that work in our pocket. And so we could match these people with campaigns effectively, because we knew what people for, what verticals did, well, what engagement was like they were connecting their social accounts so we could quickly search through these great Admin Tools, the perfect fit from a maybe it's qualitative around their personal interests that they gave us through a survey, or maybe it's performance driven of the type of work that they had done for a previous client. And, you know, the end of the day, I started thinking like, God, why is this something that only we should have access? To, you know, what if this was much easier for them to display and then go find other deals, maybe they don't need to be middlemen like us, like at the rate that there are. And so that was a big part of the inspiration for thinking about the professional network that we're building now, and what it's going to take to give people something special that they can show off and have it be easy to do and lead to outcomes that we don't have to direct personally by going and selling the brand and getting that money and then distributing it out and being this middle man,

Ian Shepherd  10:31  
that's a great story. I always love to hear how founders find their way into the Creator economy, and that's really fascinating that so let's talk about the platform. Then how do, how does a creator sign up to it?

Brian Freeman  10:44  
So we are in a private beta right now. I'll be going and, like fully, kind of launching the platform early next year where anybody can join. So right now, it's invite only. So if you do join, and you come through an invite, or you get off the wait list, then you are presented with a profile where you can fill out some key things from the about section and your title to cat, like, what type of creator Are you? What type of content do you make or are interested in, and what type of collabs Are you interested in? And then from there, we have two additional kind of main, maybe three main product area, surface areas in the app, so your portfolio, which is a place for you to kind of start building that past work library, so that people who are finding you on here or connecting with you can see some of the things that you've done in the past. And then we have analytics. So something that is present in the Creator economy right now, and this has been true for as long as I've been here, is that analytics, enterprise level analytics, so all the stuff that you can get from the APIs at the social platforms are guarded and behind pay walls. So as a creator, yeah, you can look at your own Instagram stats. But I would be curious, how many creators have ever seen the stats of another creator, yeah, so companies like yours that have a variety of creators and a professional team that can analyze their content and go, Well, you know, like, we're like, we love what you're doing. There was a great personality here, but your retention, your fall off rate, is 60% after five minutes for the content you make. Here's three new hook ideas. Let's talk about, you know, the mid re engagement hook. Let's talk about the format of this video, and that's an educational experience between a very educated team and a creator who has never seen that another creator just like them is able to achieve twice the watch rate, twice the ad revenue, just by making small tweaks. When we are you know, our YouTube Analytics dashboard allows you to show what the retention is on your top 10 videos. And if I'm, let's say an anime creator who's stuck at 20% retention, and I can go look at another one that's at 80 now I can watch one to one. What are they doing? How is that different than what I'm doing? And so like just creator to creator, that's, to me, a big empowerment. And the get access to information like that is typically a 30 to $50,000 license with a major CRM product, and it's something way beyond most influencers and beyond scope of what they would need. And so we're kind of turning the industry inside out in that way with the analytics tool. And on the flip side, whether we like it or not, for the most part, analytics are part of the purchasing decision at the brand level most of the time, so it's just the package in which they come into it. Sometimes it's about personality, but a lot of the times, if it's not UGC, it's about reach, and it's built into that performance budget, or it's built into what the brand is, how many eyeballs they're trying to impact on a quarterly basis. This is extra true for the larger companies. And so if you if a brand is not paying for a tool that allows them to look for people with certain characteristics, then it's left up to luck referral, or just how much work a team member is willing to do and looking at YouTube organically and playing around and trying to find somebody who might match their needs. So this is one of the big benefits, is by making this a freemium solution for people, we think we can increase the amount of deals people get, because more brands now can access that type of enterprise level data without having to come out of pocket massively for it. And then the third area, which, you know, is my favorite, because it's the networking part. Is, is your connections? You know, who are you connected to? And that leads to an inbox product, which you can do one on one or group messaging, share files, Shared Links. And we're finding people love that too, because actually seeing that people respond to DMS on creator land at four times the rate that they respond to email, even though they get alerted about the message via email. You know, it's like, I don't know. I think it's partially because they believe, because they start to understand what the platform is that, hey, this might be something interesting to pay attention to. And the rest of the stuff that comes through an email and bio, it can be pretty noisy. Yeah.

Ian Shepherd  14:58  
I mean, I. And manage the inboxes for a number of creators through our business, and I know that it's very, very noisy and but it's fascinating that insight there as well you made about creators. They know their own data very well, but they don't necessarily know how their data compares. And I've spoken to hundreds of creators over the last couple of years, and I really see that that they do often know their own data intimately well, but they wouldn't actually know what a good AVD looks like in their category of their genre. So I can see, yeah, there's real value to be exchanged there in the tool. So and are you able to say how many creators are on the platform at

Brian Freeman  15:34  
the moment? So we have, we did build a wait list up that we kind of started doing at the the end of last year, and so we started to pull people from that wait list to join the private beta, and then you can get into the beta now through an invite from someone who's on there. So and we're seeing the usage of that beta explode. I mean, the last week, we had 27,000 invites go out from the users on the platform to non users. So the beta has about 6000 people in it right now. The total registrants on the platform are in the 10s of 1000s, and we're bringing people off the wait list as quickly as we can, just kind of trying to build and scale and not give people too bad of an experience. So yeah, but we see it growing really, really quickly. I mean, it's about 200 to 300%

Ian Shepherd  16:20  
they're amazing. And is there a particular type of creator or genre that's more suited to this, or do you feel like it? It serves every creator, irrespective of the platform and the type of content they create.

Brian Freeman  16:33  
I think our dream long term is be able to serve every type of creator, whatever platform, whatever type of content they create, even if you're a tattoo artist that gets most of your business through referrals or Instagram followership, or a UGC creator who is big on YouTube, and you know, most of your business is creating custom role for brands, you know, whatever that is. Right now we see that this is working very well for creators who make UGC or sponsored posts, or, you know, Tiktok shop partnerships, or where, where the content is, you know, a core part of the value proposition, in addition to their personality and their unique take on things. And that's partially because that is the primary way that money flows in the Creator economy. Right now the there's some report that came out this year on Out of the many billions of dollars that changed hands, 85% of this economy's brand deals. So and most of that is sponsored type work, and that could even be I mean, we have somebody right now building an E team, E Sports team using prayer land, so reaching out and finding these gaming creators on YouTube that might identify with this platform and the esports team that they're building and the games that they are focused on building tournaments for. So even that use case works well. But anyway, long story short, content creators as kind of a wide net tend to be having the most short term success on the platform. But that being said, we've got actors and authors and writers and, you know, in addition to the streamers and YouTubers and and Tiktok creators or people who are building their own brands through these channels, whether it's personal or, like, you know, a product that they've launched, so it's, you know, it's a wide there's a wide range of personalities on there

Ian Shepherd  18:15  
that's very cool. And I know it's early days, but you're able to share any success stories of creators that have had real amazing moments through the platform.

Brian Freeman  18:26  
So, yeah, yeah, there's this guy is he goes by chess and he's on LinkedIn. He's doing great on LinkedIn. This guy did like 400 pieces of UGC in 2022 which is like a psychotic about of UGC. But we met a couple months back, and he was an early user of the platform, you know, waitlist got off and, like, invested, built a portfolio up, and then we have these people coming in who are using career land for hiring and connecting with a lot of creators and but he ended up connecting with this guy who he needed UGC. So he found chez and then hired Chaz in house as, like a consultant slash almost full time team member, to then go find other creators on creator land who would do UGC. And, you know, I guess now they're spending a decent amount of money together. So, like, that's kind of a cool story, because it was a person who was primarily content driven and is now in more of a permanent and repeatable role, you know, kind of teaching others how the things that he used to do all the time. So I love that one that's

Ian Shepherd  19:35  
very cool, very cool. And I've heard that you're doing partnerships now to help brands reach out to create is,

Brian Freeman  19:42  
yeah, I mean, I think if you stop any influencer marketer and say, Hey, is your job easy to find creators, they'll go, No, it's a nightmare. So it truly is, because you kind of got two choices. Your first choice is to pay through the 10. Teeth for a very expensive CRM dashboard that you know that's choice one. Okay, well, what about what if you're not a big brand or you don't have a ton of budget, and typically you want to have 10x the budget for a $50,000 license. That's not most people. So what's the other choice? The other choice is going through social media all day trying to network your way or break through the noise on email, which is very ineffective, and just grinding, and it's like non stop scroll, and that's pain, that's That's extreme pain. So our goal is to build the network and give as many people as opportunities as we can. And so what we're doing right now is offering for free, a way for anyone who's trying to hire content creators to partner with us and let us do that, you know, set up the outreach so that you can get whatever it is you're trying to hire for in front of the right creators, but with as little effort as possible. So right now, people are loving that, saying it's saving them 30 to 40 hours a week, and it's leading to creators getting more opportunities, and a lot of creators joining the platform. So that's that partnership has, or that new program has gone really, really well. We started doing that in August. So you know, any of your listeners would like to partner up with us on that? We'd love that anyway, we even start experimenting with talent managers and creators to help them, you know, flip that script and reach out to brands and say, hey, here I am. Check out my profile like, you know, I'm available. Check me out. And that, you know, one thing we know about Biz Dev is like the early bird gets the worm, or whatever. You know, if you're the one who's top of mind, that could lead to financial outcomes, yeah, that makes

Ian Shepherd  21:38  
absolute sense. And I'm sure a lot of the focus at the moment is on building the user base. But have you got additional functionality that you're also thinking about for further down the line that you can share with us?

Brian Freeman  21:50  
Yeah, So phase one, which we're kind of coming to the end of, at the end of October, we've got something really exciting and a refresh of the platform that we're rolling out after hundreds of user interviews. So really excited about that. That kind of concludes phase one, which is, let's get the baseline out here. Let's make a great profile, great great portfolio product, you know, a great inbox product and a networking tool. Phase two is starting to add in the some enhancements to some of those core solutions, but also social products. And one thing you'll find when you come into query land today is it's like, well, where's my feed, you know, like, Where's all my you know, where's all the activity and stuff. And that's on purpose, you know, we really wanted to make sure that we got the thing that had to be gotten Right, right? And didn't just try and make a new social network, because there's plenty of those, and nothing that people want to babysit, especially someone who is a full time social media content creator. So we are. We've got a product called groups that I'll share more about later, but imagine kind of the best parts of a Facebook group curated around topics of interest, potentially brand specific, and certainly private and public versions of those. And we see that's something that we've seen happening a lot in third in other places, you know, WhatsApp channels, very private and curated telegram communities, and then I think most content creators are aware of these, like hyper chaotic, massive Facebook groups that are like going behind a paywall in a lot of situations now, where it's mostly Follow, follow back chain. So you know, like, that's not what we want, but we do want to give people a place to communicate, discover and learn. And then early next year, we'll be looking at a social feed that's similar to something like a LinkedIn, but through the filter of what's happening in this space. So special moments around Hey, somebody just hit a new benchmark on views, or someone just posted an awesome new collab that matches your interest. Check them out. Maybe you guys should connect with things that we can we can shortcut some of these opportunities for networking and signal and learning through the activity within the rest of the system and the platform. So we're really excited about those things. So phase two is social. A lot of people come in and go, Okay, you know, but where's the like social piece? We like, we know, we know we're working on it, but we want to do it right? Sounds

Ian Shepherd  24:15  
great. Yeah. No, I love it. And the journey as a founder can often be really inspiring. Have you got any sort of lessons that you've learned in building something for the Creator economy?

Brian Freeman  24:28  
Well, whether it's creator economy or something else, you need to listen to your customers. So creator land started as a collab marketplace for creators, so as creators hiring each other to do shout outs, and, you know, collab and like, doing that kind of stuff. And so we ran that. That was the original idea. Fact, it had a web three component and and so my CTO and I ran a low code, what we call a low code test. So we tied an air table to, like a. Pretty limited. Google fire store data was a type of database that hosted by Google and, like, a very lightweight front end environment, which is basically what you see on the internet. And gave people a way to kind of come in and then look at this air table, which was a list of everybody else who was on there. And then they could, like, reach out to them. And then they were like, well, you know, I can't, I don't know if I want to collab with this person, because I don't really know anything about them or what they're interested in. It's just their content and, like, that's kind of a thing that's kind of like their work product. It's not really about who they are personally. So I don't really even know if this is a relationship I want to invest in, much less get on a freaking zoom for so they're like, Okay, we'll build out more of a profile, and then the more and then the more and more and more we dug into that, the more interviews we had. That's kind of a big part of how we emerged into, oh my god, we need a professional social network because, like, so the world be very different. I think the headwinds would be, would be pretty heavy if we had just gone down the pathway of the original idea. It's you kind of have to, as a founder of a software product, especially a consumer one, but BDB as well, you build the best possible product when you listen to your customers and you validate every assumption that you have. I mean, we're pretty insane with data. I mean, our you have this product called mix panel that is tracks everything that everybody does, you know, like, in an anonymized way, but like, we can see every single pattern of behavior, and that's how we make product decisions, that and user interviews. And I've, you know, I think, I can't say how many founders I talked to who are hyper convicted about a single concept. And the thing is, like, that's how it starts, you know, like, that's how you get excited. That's how you get the energy to, like, make the leap or work all night is around these feelings of Eureka. But I have yet to see a company even once that's made it past seed, seed stage financing that is the same thing as the as the original founding teams. Idea. It's just, it just never works out that way. Yeah,

Ian Shepherd  27:00  
no. I mean, I have first hand experience of that, and that air table sounds like a great example of an MVP. And just pivoting as you've learned more and listened to the customers and the clients, I

Brian Freeman  27:11  
was just gonna say We even brought back the Creator catalog, like we brought it back. We were like, well, you know, we can't get the we could spend a ton of time trying to build those filters into search, but we got other stuff we're gonna do. Let's put it in a Google sheet and then so now we've got everybody on the beta. Ian, want a Google Sheet, and they love it. They can browse. They can check it, look. Is it as good as it could be? No. But, like, we brought it back and, like, now it's doing the thing that we wanted the other one to do. Anyway. Sorry, that was just a fun one.

Ian Shepherd  27:37  
I know I love it. I love it. Brian, it's been really great to have you on the show before we wrap up. Do you have any predictions for 2024, in the Creator economy?

Brian Freeman  27:48  
Yeah. I mean, there's affiliate is back, affiliate is back, baby like that. You know, there were four or five years there where you just, if you wanted to do affiliate payouts, you know you're gonna have a really hard time doing, especially if you couldn't prove that people are going to make a ton of money on that because the deal flows were so massive. I mean, the recession, unfortunately, has reduced the amount of deals that are being done. 2024 is going to be a bounce back period. But my recommendation to creators would be, affiliate isn't the dirty word that it used to be. In fact, it aligns incentives. Now. Disclaimer currently does not have any kind of affiliate systems. So this is like self promotional in that way. I think it's, it's, it could be a way to actually making a decent amount of money versus just a single post was kind of a one and done. So I think we've already seen this, that there's a lot of consolidation going on in the space. So, you know, I've talked to a number of companies who are, they're raising money, they're finding partners who want to help invest in senior operators, who really understand the space, have the relationships and can roll up some of these companies that have, are still service organizations, or fail to scale, but could be really meaningful in a bigger organization. So we're definitely going to see continuous consolidation and and that third thing I would say is that you were going to keep seeing the creators building their own new financial streams of revenue, whether that's brands that they're launching or partnerships with with other companies that maybe that's affiliate or elsewhere, but I think we're going to see less confusion around how to get going with something besides core content creation, as companies like electrify offer great educational resources, good partnerships, and the number of people in the Space who know how to go beyond the post and beyond the ad revenue from YouTube start to spread out and share that knowledge. I think it's things are gonna get really interesting,

Ian Shepherd  29:50  
cool, some wise words there, and I'm sure that many of the creators listening are hoping that it's gonna bounce back in 2024 but if not, they should be focusing on affiliate deal. Right

Brian Freeman  30:01  
affiliate deals or just getting creative. You know that you've got an audience now. Audience wants stuff. What do they want? What can you sell them?

Ian Shepherd  30:08  
I love it cool. Well, thank you so much, Brian for joining us. For anyone listening, how should they get in contact with you? So

Brian Freeman  30:14  
join the wait list on careerland.com and, you know, shoot me a note. Brian@careerland.com We'll help you. We'll get you on the system. Cool. Well, thank

Ian Shepherd  30:25  
you so much for joining us. It's been fascinating to learn about it, and I'm looking forward to seeing the platform

Brian Freeman  30:30  
grow Awesome. Thanks. Ian, great to be here.

Ian Shepherd  30:34  
So that was the latest episode in a business of Creators Podcast. We've got some amazing guests coming up, so please hit subscribe to join the conversation, and don't hesitate to send me a DM on Twitter or LinkedIn with your feedback about the show. Ian.