The Art of Online Business

Tarzan Kay’s Shockingly Simple List-Building Strategy (And Why Meta Ads Made It Work)

• Kwadwo [QUĀY.jo] Sampany-Kessie

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Tarzan is a copywriter and newsletter creator known for her story-driven emails and consent-based approach to selling. She spent years dismantling a seven-figure “girlboss” business to build something more sustainable that puts people and great writing first.

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Tarzan and I talk about a list-building strategy that breaks a lot of the usual rules and why Meta ads are what make it work. 

We also talk about using ads as a way to grow without being glued to social media, how that choice supports long-term consistency, and why building an email list this way attracts better-fit subscribers from the start.



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Kwadwo [QUĀY.jo] Sampany-Kessie’s Links:




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SPEAKER_00:

Welcome back to another episode of the Art of Online Business Podcast. And this is one of those that you've requested where I feature another online business owner who is running ads to their business so that you can learn tips and tricks from their experience. What's gone well, what could have gone better, what their funnel looks like. You can see Tarzan over there. Tarzan Kay, good to see you again, Tarzan. True story, we met up in Maine earlier this year, 2025, like in the summer. And Tarzan, you taught me and many other online business owners how to do a song circle. I just remember it as like a campfire sing-along. That was fun.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, uh, the many faces of Tarzan. You'll just that was just one. So you'll meet another today.

SPEAKER_00:

We will definitely see another today. Let me let me read your intro so that the listener can get to know you a bit. First of all, I encountered you way back in 2019. And in your bio, you talk about dismantling your seven-figure business. And I think the first time I encountered you was when before you decided to dismantle the seven-figure business. Either way, Tarzan, girl boss in recovery. Tarzan Kay is the writer of emails, but better, a much-loved newsletter full of addictive stories and occasionally embarrassing tell-alls from the front lines of online business. Her programs teach business owners how to write highly readable, story-driven emails and use consent-based strategies to grow and sell with email. She spent years quietly dismantling her seven-figure, excuse me, grow boss empire and building a more inclusive online business that prioritizes people and great writing over profits. You live up there in Ontario, Canada, which is super far away from where I live. Down here in Mexico, I guess two countries, one country away, but it seems like it's just as cold up there right now as I feel down here. I have on my hoodie and you have on your multicolored scarf and sweat.

SPEAKER_02:

Stop it. It's way colder here. I'm getting ready to go skiing, okay?

SPEAKER_00:

I am well, I mean, do you like skiing? I shouldn't say I'm sorry. I just like warm weather.

SPEAKER_02:

I am learning to ski, and I mean, I'm Canadian, so the seasons are a huge part of who I am. Like one time I spent a I did a gap year in Australia, and I was like, oh wow, I didn't realize until I was in a place that doesn't have the same seasons how much how important they are. So I'm in this weird, like we're recording on December 8th. We're in this like liminal solstice space where everything's like getting slower and darker and colder, and my prescription is skiing. So don't feel bad for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Don't feel bad for you. I will not then. It is getting colder here, though, where I'm at in Mexico. And I don't know if I told you the last time we met, but I don't live on the beach. I'm at like 6,000 feet, roughly 3,000 meters at 2,800 meters elevation. And it's getting colder now.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, I believe you. Okay, fair, fair.

SPEAKER_00:

So starting off with your ads, and then later on, because you are good at all things written, and by the way, I wish I could write better, and I cannot wait to hear about the email sequence that you have hooked up to your ads.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh my god, it's so good. Everybody needs to get it.

SPEAKER_00:

I bet it's good, and I want to learn more about it. Sure. First, let's start off with something that caught my attention from when I was reading about you know what you filled out for this episode, which was that you do ads straight to your email list, no freebie. Yeah, that is crazy. I've never I've not often seen that.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, there is like a whole movement of people doing this. I definitely didn't invent it. I tried, I thought it would be a really cool idea, and I tried it like three, four years ago, and it didn't work at all. I think I'm not sure if we we probably didn't try very hard. We just like tried out a new ad and got one lead for$30, and we were like, this is scary. Turn this off. So I'm not sure. We probably could have made it work back then. However, now it's very common for people in the newsletter business that are specifically growing their newsletters. And I've been using this strategy for more than two years straight to my email list. And there's lots of reasons for that. The main one being like, I want people to join my email list to get the emails. Like, I don't want them to come in for some like freebie that they're gonna interact with for five seconds. I want to say, like, here's the value of the emails that I'm sending. Like, do you want to get the emails? Because I'm trying to build a newsletter, not give away PDFs. So, and because the newsletter is like so driven by writing, it just feels like the right strategy for us. And it's yeah, it's been working really well. We started with an ads manager who we had like paid to hire the ads for us to run the ads. Her name is Laura Eastburn. And then, and she's been great. We go back to her periodically when I'm like, ah, my ads are out of control. Like, I don't know what to do. So she ran my ads for years. And then when, gosh, I don't know how much of the story to tell you. Maybe we'll get to it, maybe we won't. However, at a certain point, I was like, okay, my ads budget is like usually it's about a thousand dollars a month. I'm gonna say I've been spending one to two thousand dollars a month for the entire 10 years that I have been in business. So I have put hundreds of thousands into ads. I know that I can turn those subscribers into customers. I also started to feel like, okay, I for many years I've been paying someone$2,000 per month to spend$1,000 on ads. So yeah, it doesn't really, it doesn't quite compute. And I thought, okay, like what if could I like, could I divert some of that money to my ad spend and run them myself? And it did. So because I had someone, I had Lara doing an incredible job. Like she built out, she had this ad strategy that was working. She, for one thing, she like really specializes in what she calls non-transactional. And by that she means like no freebie. You're just joining the email list. So I hired someone who was like really familiar with that. And she had this cool strategy that was working at the time. This was like about two years ago. And she had this ad that was like a square graphic, but it looked like a nine grid. And every grid had like something interesting and a little picture of me written on it. So she had this ad strategy, she built it all out for us, and then I took over. And it worked. It was for a while. I was like, well, this is awesome. Like, I all I do is, and maybe we'll get deeper into this, but like I I really had no experience with ads, and the ads manager, as everybody who's ever logged in knows, is like so freaking overwhelming. But I was able to like decide, okay, here are the metrics I'm gonna track and develop a little system for myself, which is like so freaking basic. But this is what I did. I would log in every Friday and I would track how many leads came in, what did it cost, how many people visited my landing page, what is my landing page conversion. And at the end of the month, I would also add up how many sales came in specifically through people from Facebook ads. So I just was doing that for like about six months and it was like pretty much working. My ad cost was like slowly creeping up, and I didn't really know what to do. But I was I was like, wow, this is amazing. I'm like sort of managing this myself. Every so often I might like add a new graphic or something, but very minimal because I I I just like as soon as I log in, I want to get the F out of there like as soon as possible. Um so then, oh Quayjo, we could go so many places with this interview. But then after like about six, eight months of that, I got hacked. My Facebook account got hacked. And it took me three months to it took about a month to get access to my personal profile back. And then another two months of me trying to regain control of my ads account before I finally was like, I surrender, I'm starting over with a new ads account. So, you know, I've taken training in Facebook ads. I always come back to a combination of hiring someone to do it for me and then me like maintaining watching the numbers, keeping an eye on it until it's like not workable anymore. And I have to like bring someone in to fix it.

SPEAKER_00:

I get it. Like, well, I do do one-on-one coaching for ads, and frequently that's what I hear is the hardest. Like, we can get a course, we can get the ad set up, or we can even hire an ads manager and have somebody start us off, but then interpreting the signs to keep the ship running smoothly and on a course, like that's that's difficult. You you just listening to you, I have a myriad of questions that I'm furiously typing down into our notes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, well, I'll let you direct based on what was most salient.

SPEAKER_00:

The thing that I loved was that you thoroughly track your leads, and I was shocked that you're running ads straight to the tripwire or straight to the newsletter, but then what you said made a ton of sense. You are in the business of growing your newsletter, and you don't want people to come to you for a freebie. You want people to come to you for the newsletter, and so why not run ads straight to that? So, my question was how much is a lead worth to you that comes from ads? Do you got no like ballpark figure?

SPEAKER_02:

It's like so hard to know. We've run those numbers, like we've paid people to like come in and figure out like what every lead is worth, and it's like never I I've never I'm gonna just say honestly, I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is that I so this is what I track. I log in and I say, I see how many leads is Facebook reporting that came in, and I just put that in the spreadsheet. Then I log into kit and say, How many leads do I actually see in kit that came from Facebook? And then, as I've said, landing page and da da da da. And then at the end of the month, I go to Sam Cart and I pull the data of everyone that purchased all time purchases. Like I you would not believe how imperfect my system is. Uh, it's more for like my personal, it's like my data is it's strong enough that I can feel confident like putting money into Facebook ads, but it's not strong enough that I could like plow money into it because I'm like, look, this happens and this happens and this happens. So I log into Sam Cart and I'll see like, okay, well, I spent$1,000 and there's like$1,200 worth of purchases from people who came from Facebook ads. But you know, we had someone run the numbers years ago and they estimated that our lifetime value of each customer of each subscriber was like$200 or something, but it fluctuates wildly based on like what are we selling? And I am like, I change the things that I sell like all the time. I have some core things that I go back to, but I'm always following like what the market wants, what's per what's like exciting to me, the way I think people need to learn. So like that means my pricing changes, the structure of my offers changes. Like I understand, I've been doing this for 10 years. I understand how much simpler it is when you have like, you know, one product and you're doing things that are like repeatable. Also, it's just not my style though.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, you know what? In situations like yours, sometimes it just makes better sense to stick to the basics, like inside of kit, formerly known as convert kit, your meta ads leads are are tagged as meta ads leads, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. So then as long as you're running ads, like maybe it makes sense just to do it by every three months or every six months, and it's like total ad spend, and then look at all the sales and filter that by what the people that bought, you know, anything since it's always changing, came from meta ads leads, and then quickly do the math, you know, divide that revenue by the number of leads and stick a number to it. And as long as they're worth more than your cost per lead, I mean, game on. That is quite intriguing that you've grown your business off of running ads for so many years.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Well, let me just talk to that for one second. I am so resistant to being on social media, especially right now. I just someone asked me the other day, he said, Oh, like, could we connect on LinkedIn? And I said to him, I'm not on social media for reasons of my personal happiness. So I do have accounts, obviously, you need them to run ads. But and there there have been times in my business where I paid someone to like I, you know, I had support someone doing social media for me, but I just like I I really feel like it has a huge tax on my mental health. And so the way for me to be on social media and not be on social media is by running ads. So I have always run ads. It's how I have a list of 10,000 engaged subscribers. I don't have a podcast, my social media following is minimal. I'm not even there. There's so many things that other people do that I don't do, and they're like, Tarzan, how did you do it? Well, how I do it is Facebook ads.

SPEAKER_00:

Right? Right. Yeah. It sounds it sounds like you're similar to some of my clients, where I'm like, okay, how do I have your business? You're not super active on social media. Like, I have this one client and she runs bi-week, like every other week, webinars. And her niche, if I told you, you'd be like, Are you kidding me? She doesn't regularly post on social media, hardly ever posts on Instagram, and makes a lot of money just from this repeated webinar that we run ads to every other week. And I'm just I look at her numbers because I can see her numbers.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm just like, wow, what does her am I are we allowed to know her niche?

SPEAKER_00:

Are we allowed to know her niche? Travel blogging, a niche that should be posting on Instagram a lot.

SPEAKER_02:

Travel blogging. Wow, what does she sell?

SPEAKER_00:

She sells a offer that teaches travel bloggers how to monetize their blog. Cool. She is also a travel blogger, with so it's not just like she makes money from teaching travel bloggers how to make money, it's like she kills it with her own travel blog and she's actively traveling, but then she also teaches other bloggers, travel bloggers, how to go through the steps to get enough traffic to get monetized too, and she's quite good at teaching them too.

SPEAKER_02:

And yeah, but she doesn't post much on Instagram. That's awesome. Yeah, it's great for her. She's winning.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, she is she is winning, she is winning, and it's pretty cool. So, can we just talk about what you said about being off of social media and how it's beneficial for your mental health? It's fresh on my mind because just this weekend, my wife and I were talking with my daughter because several, I think it was like it's been an ongoing theme, but she's nine, and in my mind, and I'm probably just out of touch, but I'm like, how does a nine-year-old deal with this? But she was crying and crying, and it was because eventually, once we, you know, got her to calm down, and this was like an hours-long process, it's because one of her friends said that her thighs were fat, and I'm like, My nine-year-old, are you kidding me? And they were like her and her two or three friends were in a car going somewhere together, and one of them one of them made this comment, and it was like six months later, and then it's coming out now. Fast forward to this weekend, and we were talking about social media and starting to explain to our daughter that, like, like, number one, this comparison game sucks, and we can never win anyway. Like, we'll always just think that everyone else is better than us because psychological reasons explain to the nine-year-old level. But then, number two, it just seems like social media is out to ruin young women and older women. And it's I'm like trying to explain to her like, you can't even trust like these pictures that you're seeing. Like, it's like one picture from 40 pictures that were deleted, and who knows what sort of software is being used, you know, to like modify this picture and even videos. And so we were having this talk, and then you said the same thing. So, how better is your life?

SPEAKER_02:

Because yeah, okay. Well, I mean, diet culture and fat phobia are just one great reason to not be on social. And that's like, I guess how we prep our children for it is a is a I'm not qualified to speak on that, but what I do say specifically about my children is you know, so my children are seven and ten, like it's only a matter of time before my soon-to-be 11-year-old is gonna ask for like a phone and social media accounts. And I really want to set an example for my children about phone usage. So, just one thing that I do is when my children address me, I always put my phone down. I don't talk to my children with my phone in my hand. And I've told them that that is how we do things and even ask for their support in that. I'll like never forget this video of Simon Sinek on it's a YouTube video that you can look it up. And he's, I don't even know what he's talking about, but he's he's addressing the guy who's interviewing him. He's talking away and he's holding his phone in his hand. It's like, let me just hold my phone in my hand. So he's like, well, he's talking away and then he puts his phone down and then he continues talking. And there's just a shift that is so powerful. And I realize, like, wow, I am doing that with my children. Like they can see me divided between this thing and this thing. So, you know, there's many things I do around the house. Like, we the children know that like that there's a charging station where we put our phones and devices when they're not in use. Like, yeah, I'm really careful about that because I don't see like since I started a business and all which was 10 years ago, and all of my news feeds became other businesses marketing to each other. I just like I'm not actually getting the social benefit, like it's no longer a place where I get updates about my friends and family. And I I just noticed myself like, how do I feel when I'm on this tool? And how I feel is I want to like be even more committed to that being 100% optional. I know that if if that is required in order for me to. Have this business, I need to think about a different business.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow, that's powerful because that's it's your business, it's your main source of income. Wow. Okay. Okay. Hey, we'll get right back to the episode in a moment. I really wanted you to hear about the following where other than hopping on your email newsletter that is linked up below, would you like people to get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Well, I would like you to get in touch via my newsletter, charzank.com slash newsletter. My social profiles, as I've said, are placeholders. So if you DM me, I'll get it like six months from now. But you can talk to me by hitting reply on any newsletter. I manage the replies along with a team member, but it's likely it's often me that you'll get. So that's the best place to come talk to me. I do speaking occasionally. So I do travel and speak, and I'm really excited about the Girl Boss Apology Tour. It's gonna be awesome. It's happening in April, this last two weeks of April. So yeah, look out for that. It's gonna be, I'm gonna bring in like, it's actually not just for girl bosses. There'll be some bros in the tour as well. But yeah, that's what I really want people to keep their eye out for. We're gonna have like conversations about the weird, wild world of internet marketing, the things you're uncomfortable with. And I'm tapping my Rolodex of very successful people to come in and talk about what their experiences have been, what they would never do again, and how like we can do better in general. And the apology tour, I guess I just want to say is like a lot of people need a lot of forgiveness for themselves, for the business that they thought that they would have, the courses they bought that they never opened, you know, the relationships that got like messed up because they made some weird pitch that like turned someone off. Like we all need to give ourselves a lot of forgiveness so we can move on in our businesses. And that's part of what the tour is about.

SPEAKER_00:

Very cool. So I need to put that link in the show notes also.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not available yet. So yeah, no, we'll be we'll be yeah, we will be registering in March. So it's a ways out, but it's such it is like if anybody, I mean, you've got listeners who've done a summit, it's like a huge amount of work. So my plate is already full getting ready for this thing that's happening in April.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'll say that again. Very cool. And obviously, if the listener you want to know more about that, you're gonna have to go get on the newsletter, tarzank.com forward slash newsletter. All right, now back to the episode.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean, I'm also a believer that there are so many ways of doing business. Like, you know, all around me, everybody's sort of trying to replicate one business model, which is like I run ads and then occasionally I run a live webinar and like I sell an eight-week course, and then like I have a membership that comes after that. Like everybody's kind of trying to build the same thing in the same way. And it's partly because we keep taking these classes of like, now I'm gonna learn how to start a membership. Now I'm gonna like take this other class to like learn this other business model, whatever. Like, we love, especially when you're starting out, this makes absolute absolute sense. Like, you want things to be like simple and like just give me the step by step. Like, I just want my business to be like a Lego set. And for some people, the Lego set like really works, but just you also need to remember like you could build like a thousand million different things with the same pieces of Lego. So I'm not saying like, oh, if I can't do social media, like forget it. Well, what am I willing to do? Like, I am I'm willing to speak. Like I know that I am like a really powerful speaker and can really make an impact on people when I show up in person and go to events. Like, I like speaking on podcasts. I'm doing this here. This has like been really very it's like slow list growth from speaking on other people's podcasts, but it's very effective, you know. So it's not so much like I'm throwing my business in the garbage if I have to be on social media. It's like, no, I need to find another doorway. And there are so many doors to go through, so many things to explore.

SPEAKER_00:

No, that that makes a lot of sense. For me, I've realized through the conversation after the one that happened with my daughter, like I realized, oh, I fall into the trap of comparing myself to all the folks that I see in my feed, because like you shared, my feed also over the years is it's just other online businesses, you know. And I remember also I was looking in the I guess directory of one of the masterminds that I'm in. And after being at an in-person retreat recently in November, and then looking at that directory, and then just with the conversation that happened this past weekend about social media, I was confessing to my wife that like, why do I feel like everyone around me has like way better like business than I do? And it was like a negative like spiral of thought process, and then I realized, well, hold on a second, like all the people that I'm looking at on social media are posting sometimes real life, but it's the it's the best of the best of the curated of the curated of their experience, and then also we're part of folks who have all of their income from an online business, and the circles that you run, I'm also guessing, are the same, where it's like these are the most successful of the most successful business owners, right? And so then I just had to give myself a pep talk and realize that sometimes we can get stuck in comparing ourselves to the top 0.05%. And of course, statistically, there's going to be a big old gap between, you know, where you're at and where someone there is, because that's how it is.

SPEAKER_02:

And yeah, I mean, I was fortunate, like in my first year in business, in my first couple of years, I worked for several like very well-known girl bosses who, you know, I was working intimately with them in their businesses, and I could see them. Like, I had this one client, she was a business coach, and she would make all these videos about like this freedom lifestyle and like how, you know, all the gifts of like all the peace and the time and the dah-da-da. And she was working like a maniac at all times. Like, she would be up in the middle of the night, like posting things or like sending me emails or whatever. And I it took me years before like it was a couple years of like, okay, so this is like something's not adding up here. And then, you know, I had another client who like claimed that she didn't work Fridays and she was on a four-day work week, and like, but then I would always hear from her on Friday, and so I got to see firsthand that they were making stuff up, that they were idealizing what their businesses were versus like the reality of it. And you know, to this day, like I run a mastermind, it's called power, it's my favorite thing that I do. And I notice, like, even with us, it's often coming up like, why is this like so hard? It feels like it's really hard. Like, shouldn't it be easier? And I have to remind myself and the whole group, like, no, no, no, like you're comparing yourself to like this fantasy that doesn't actually exist. So let's just come back to like the evidence that we have in front of us today, which is that we all have challenges, we're all like working our tushes off, we're all like failing at stuff and learning through failure. And it just isn't what you know, what you see, like you're comparing yourself to something that isn't real.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Here's to not comparing ourselves to this reality that actually doesn't exist for other people's businesses and learning just to focus on what works best in our own business and do more of what gives us the lifestyle we want in our own businesses.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Right? Exactly. Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

So your ads and your funnel. Great. Before we talk about the email sequence that follows up your ads, I do want to because I'm not sure if I said the first time, your funnel is newsletter opt-in. On the thank you page is a tripwire. That's a limited time offer for your copywriter program. Can you tell me about what that program is quickly and what price your limited time offer is, and conversion rates if you know those or if they're like immediately available. I know you know them, but I don't want you to have to dig.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'd rather not dig. This funnel has several problems with it. So my conversion rates won't be that impressive, and I can tell you exactly what's wrong with it. So this is actually what it goes like. So you opt into my email list, and then you see a tripwire for a$7 audio series. It's a really great product. It's an audio series about sort of like everything you hate about internet marketing explained. And it talks about persuasion, like things like scarcity, urgency, reciprocity, social proof, all of those, these sort of like tried and true effective business strategies and why they feel weird and how to like do it differently. So that's an audio series. It costs seven dollars. And then if you buy that, then you go to you get an offer for my copywriting program, which is about it's like pitched as green flags in copywriting. Like, here's it starts with all the red flags, that's a tripwire. Here's the green flags, like here's how to write copy that works. It's a$500 course. The limited time offer is$300. Here's where the problem is. Most people drop off before they get to, like, most people will not buy the tripwire. So then they actually, and you need to buy the tripwire to activate the the limited time offer for the course. So, and there's several other ways of like activating it in the promo sequence or in the delivery sequence of the opt-in. So that's just we we've got like a real bottleneck that has to be fixed before the funnel can be profitable. And right now it's like, you know, enough. It's like just casually, okay. Let's say we spend$2,000 a month on ads and we get like low-end 750 subscribers. We might make like two sales, and then we'll make our some of our ad spend back. We're not making all of our ad spend back.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey, but I want to pause really quick and just say, dear listener, it's normal, quite normal across all the clients that I have to pay for leads, first of all. Making all the ad spin back on a tripwire in full transparency is very rare. Normally, what I see is like 30 to 40 percent of ad spend can be made back if you have a tripwire in place. And that's like a very good, very well aligned tripwire offer on that thank you page of a free thing that has an order bump plus like an aligned upsell. So I just want to say that for you, Lys.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, yeah. We yeah, in the past, when we had something that worked, we had a$17 tripwire with an order bump and a one-time offer. And that funnel broke even. So I do like I know what it takes to break even on these funnels, but however, I am all about long-term relationship building. And so I, yeah, like there's many ways I reduce. So the, you know, the the one, the tripwire, it's not, it should be priced higher. I don't think$7 was the right price. But anyway, that it cuts down on our ad spend. We also have a pop-up. So we have a like a what's called a co-registration platform. Ours goes through Spark Loop. So it's like you join my email list, and then a window pops up and says, Would you like to join these other email lists? And there are like four or five options. And if people join those and confirm, then I get like between four and seven dollars per subscriber. So that through that, I might get like 15% of my ad spend back. So, you know, I'm like, I'm looking at ways to reduce my ad spend, but I like I've been doing this for 10 years. I know from experience, most evergreen funnels are not profitable. So, just for any of your listeners that don't know that, most evergreen funnels are not profitable. And they are considered profitable if they break even or make some money. I think it's like so important for people to know because a profitable evergreen funnel is kind of like the holy grail of internet marketing. And, you know, those in order to make that funnel work, you need many elements of persuasion. And what you're essentially choosing, what you what you're essentially doing with those type of funnels is bypassing people's ability to think critically and pushing them into making like a$2,000 spend without really having that much time to think about it. And you do that through things like like for a for a webinar funnel to work, like it has to have a webinar only bonus, a fast action bonus, a mid-cart bonus, a closing bonus. Like you need all of that for it to convert. And that's just like really intense. I just like that's why internet marketing has such a bad reputation. So for me, I'm like, I don't, you know, I know that, for example, my funnel would be more profitable if the tripwire just led straight to like an order bump with my course that's like reduced to 150. And I was just talking with a business coach the other day, and he was like, Yeah, why don't you add that? And I was like, Oh yeah, dot, like, of course, that's a great idea. And then I got off the phone and I was like, but that's just like not what I'm about. I'm just not about that. So and it doesn't mean like it it can't be done, but it's not for me.

SPEAKER_00:

Hey again, Quajo here. And right quick before we get back to Tarzan's episode, if you are running Facebook and Instagram ads right now and you want me to do an audit of your ads and give you very clearly the next three things that you should do in order to increase ad performance, I have that link to a 48-hour ads audit in the description below. It's straightforward, you pay for the audit, and then you get my eyes, a guy who looks at Facebook and Instagram ads for course creators all the time. My eyes will be on your ads to give you the top one, two, three things, three things that you can do to improve your ad performance. All right, now back to the episode. I love how you articulated that as a copywriter, that the the the crux of an evergreen funnel is to did you say override people's ability to think, bypass people's ability to think critically and push them into a$2,000 offer. And yet, and yet for folks that do do that, like I do believe that selling is serving, and you know, yes, I agree that helps people regularly, you know, and affects real transformation in their lives, then it is your duty to sell more people because somebody going through your offer, their life is actually changing for the better, no matter how you serve them. And then, two, if you don't want to do that, which is what I'm hearing from you, then be genuine and authentic to yourself and have your business be profitable with a longer funnel that builds relationship. And that's completely okay too, as long as your business is profitable, because if we're not profitable, then we can't serve the people with the gifts and passions, you know, that we've been blessed with, and then nobody wins.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I agree. And like I do have like peers that have those types of funnels that have all of those elements of persuasion, and I don't think they're like evil villains. I'm like, hey, you it's working for you in your business. Like, I'm not out here being like the arbiter of what's ethical and what's not ethical. I just know for my like I'm building the again, like I've got all the same pieces of Lego that everyone else has, and I'm building the business that feels good to me, like based on what my subscribers are telling me, what I see is working in my own courses, like the feedback that people get, like just so many years of people saying, like, I don't want to market like that, that I'm like, okay, fair. I'm not gonna like give you a sermon on why you have the wrong mindset. Like, let's actually work with it. Like, this feels weird. Like, well, what could you do that's different? Like for me, one of the main things I do that's different is like I don't I don't run ads to freebies. Like, I'm building my email list. So you're going straight to my email list. Like, there's elements of persuasion that I just don't use because I want people to purchase my products and join my email list like in full, like with their full capacity to make decisions. Those people make much better customers, they're thoughtful email subscribers. Like anybody who uses persuasion who sells courses on the internet, including me, will say, like, it's really hard to get people to show up for stuff. It's never been harder in my 10 years of doing business to get people to show up even for stuff that they paid for. And like, the more you're like pushing people to make a snap decision about something that they don't really need, the lower your like completion rate is gonna be. So you again, like I'm just like observing what I see and adapting my business in a way that I can feel good about because I need to feel good about my business in order to show up for it. Like if I'm doing some weird shit that I don't feel good about, I just like I feel like frozen. I can't do anything. So that's why, you know, when people say marketing makes them feel weird, I'm like, okay, like let's talk about, let's talk about why and let's like find a way that you can feel good about.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. I like this. We're gonna do some rapid fire questions.

SPEAKER_02:

Bring it on.

SPEAKER_00:

Before we do that, can you share with the listener about your I mean we'll we'll link it up in the description below, but can you share about your newsletter? I'm reading on your website right now. Every week I email you a beautiful, hilarious, painfully true story about, and then it says business life, but the word business has a strike through. Explain more about that.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Well, I think you know, our business like my business is a huge part of it's like my child. It's like so my life is so intimately connected to what I'm doing in my business. You just really like it's you can't separate the two. So that's But like my stories about business are my stories about life. Like, even, you know, as we were recording this interview, like my son came in. He's like, maybe I'll tell the story in an email. Earlier in this interview, he was, I was like answering a question and he was like throwing up, I can hear him, poor child, throwing up his toast in the living room down the hall. Like they're both happening at once. And the people who I work with are really trying to build like a lifestyle business. You know, they're I they're attracted to the fact that they could have, you know, that their their life and their business could actually be more integrated. So that's why I just feel like stories about business are stories about life, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. I identify a story about business is stories about life.

SPEAKER_02:

They're also so much more interesting. Like nobody wants to hear me talk about like my funnel and like they sign up for that because they do want to hear the strategy, but actually they stay for the stories, and I use those stories to like it's like sneaking the medicine in with the cheese.

SPEAKER_00:

I like it. I mean, because I sit here in my office and my kid's bedroom is just right there, yeah, you know, 10 feet down the hallway, and it's a blessing to work at home, but then it's also not like I go to the office and am my work self at the office and then decompress and change into my dad self when I get home. It's like my kids see how I am at quote unquote work the moment they get home from school and on summer breaks, you know. And so I'm always, and I'm sure like the listener right now and your email subscribers can relate to it, but we're always balancing if we work from home how we are at business and how to convey our business or communicate about our business to our kids. And you know, the balancing act of I'm here talking to individuals on Zoom, and my child is interested. I kind of secretly do want them to grow up and have their own business thing, but yet I also don't want to sidetrack the sales call that I'm having. But yet they're so do I let them come in? It's it's it's all it's all intertwined, you know? Um quite messy. So listener, go and read, especially because it's good reading, but Tarzan's email list, it's in the description below, and then rapid fire before you share what's really on your heart about your email sequence that follows up that delivers to people who get on your email list from ads, and then anything you want to share with the listener that is thinking about tweaking their email sequence that supports their lead magnet. But rapid fire, what kind of visuals do you currently run to your ads? Are they graphics? Are they reels, videos, a mix? What's going on there? And what's been working?

SPEAKER_02:

So we just threw all of our ads in the garbage and started over. So we used, but we were running graphics with a picture of me and like very minimal but very strong copy on the graphic. So it says, we're not human, we're not leads, we're humans. I don't think it says much more than that. And then it says like subscribe. It kind of looks like a button on the graphic. So we've done that and we've done videos, and those did great. Like, to be fair to those ads, you know, I was getting leads for like three dollars for like at least six, eight months. So the new thing, for one thing, I use new photos, and they're just they're everyday like photos from life. They're not like professional photography photos, and they have a similar amount, like a small amount of copy on them. And then we're also testing two ads that have that are just like plain text on a plain background. We've never done that before. And the ads, oh, they're the copy's kind of cute. Like, actually, if you will just hang on a second, I might even be able to pull it up. Okay, so I'm running a text ad that says if you want to redefine girl bossy as leading with trust instead of tactics, subscribe to Tarzan's newsletter. It's free. But there's other ones that say like the best online business gossip rag in town. And I'm like, I've got a few different angles. So we'll see what Facebook tells us is the winner that people are most interested in. I'm leading up to a summit, an online summit in the spring. It's called the Girl Boss Apology Tour. So I'm using the word girl boss a lot more, knowing that I mean, my marketing is always like I've always had like not a very good gender balance on my email list. And I just really want to talk about the girl boss industry. So I'm starting to use a little bit more of that language so that I can bring people in that are like want to be part of that conversation. And currently have no videos, nothing else. Like the only real big change we did with this new set of ads is we we like changed the size to four by five. Okay, but there's no videos currently.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha. Four by five. It's cool.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, I'm in the Facebook ads library, just like go check me out.

SPEAKER_00:

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, we I made like maybe 10 new ads to test, but I currently, okay. I mean, back to my hybrid management strategy. I currently just paid someone, she's been awesome, to actually do a like a total overhaul. She's setting them all up fresh, and she will get a reset. She'll get my ad spend back down to like, I mean, this is a tough time of year, but typically she can get it down to like$2 a lead, and then I take over until it doesn't work anymore, and then I hire Laura to fix it.

SPEAKER_00:

Makes sense. So you actually have this cool hybrid model where you manage your own ads, but you pay an expert when you need just some help, basically. They kind of rejuvenate everything and get you back on track, and then you'll kind of keep managing your ads until you feel like they're off track again.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

If you feel like they're ever off track.

SPEAKER_02:

No, they I mean, this is just how ads work, they're gonna go off track for sure.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, I'm happy that you shared that because there are so many different ways to run ads for a business, you know, like hire out for an ads manager, DIY or hybrid. And two, I just feel like with other podcasts, either we get the example of the business that spends twenty thousand dollars a month on ads. And when it's launch time, they could spend even fifty thousand dollars a month on ads, and we don't have an example of let's just say a regularly successful, a normally successful business that maybe spends two thousand, three thousand dollars a month on ads, and maybe they still manage it themselves, you know. So I appreciate you sharing this.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, totally. I mean, I I have definitely tried to go full DIY and I just don't have it in me. And I've taken courses, like I took Terra Zerker's successful ads club, and that was really great because it came with one-on-one. So I like for six months would sit down once a month with someone to like, you know, take me on a like tour of the ads manager, and I could ask questions about it. And I do think like for most people, and this is true of anything that you outsource, like you need to have a basic understanding of it because not every ads manager will will like sit down and explain it to you and say, like, okay, well, your landing page conversion rate is low, or you know, they they might not come back to you and be like, hey, look, you used to be at 65%, now you're at 35. Like, what happened? Can you optimize this page? So, like, that's one thing that I'm proud of myself for is like just pushing past the discomfort of logging into like logging into the ads manager. I need like three different devices and four passwords, and I have to check my email three times. But just like looking, you know, setting up the ads manager with a view that I like and like, okay, here's my click-through rate, like here's my, you know, just reviewing those numbers and understanding what they mean. Yeah, like essential for anyone who's spending any money on Facebook ads.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. I definitely agree. So, since you are a master of email and all things written when it comes to online business, like what is the part of your follow-up sequence that you're most proud of? And we'll finish the episode there.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, okay. Well, when I look at all the things that I did this year in my business, the email, like the onboarding, the welcome emails are by far the best thing that I wrote all year. It's like the task landed in my plate in a moment of inspiration. And it just like, you know, we all as creative people, sometimes you get like, you get one of my clients described it as like, you're in a car, you're in fifth gear, and you're like cruising down the road with the wind in your hair, and you're just like, Yeah, got it. Like, that's what it felt like to write that sequence. And it gets like one of my main metrics for knowing like, is this working? Is are people replying? I don't even track the number of people that are replying, but if nobody's replying to my welcome sequence, I have a problem. And those early replies, like those, like that's critical for deliverability. As soon as someone replies to your email and then you reply back, like you now have premium inbox placement. So that's one thing the sequence is doing really well. Like it's very entertaining, which is also like, you know, that's part of the onboarding. It's not just telling people, like, here's what my newsletter is gonna be and why you're gonna like it and you should stay. It's like I'm showing them. They're gonna be entertained, they're gonna hear things they've never heard before. They're gonna be like, oh my God, did she really say that? Like I'm showing them with a really great sequence. And the the timing of the sequence, I think, is interesting. And this is something that's changed. As inboxes become busier, the newsletter tools have never been cheaper and they've never been better. So that does mean inboxes are a little more crowded. So just to note the delivery sequence like you get one email immediately, you get another email like about four hours later, and you get another email like eight hours later. So you're getting three emails in 24 hours in one day.

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't that too much?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I mean, if people are unsubscribing, if it's not working, then yes, it's too much. But if they're good emails, like I don't, I'm not gonna keep up that pace. And it's clear in the emails. Like, I'll say that. This is, you know, it's a once-a-week newsletter. These are the consent-based strategies I use. But no, I don't think it's too much. And in fact, one email, like I, you know, it's not enough. Like, it's fine when you're setting things up. Like, okay, I'm getting started with my newsletter, with my email marketing. I just like need a deliver email. That's your setup stage. But actually, to like really earn your place in someone's inbox, like for sure, two or three emails within 24 hours.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm asking that in a tongue-in-cheek way because I fully plan on taking this little section and sending it to my ads coaching clients who, when I ask them about their email funnel, and they're like, Oh, yeah, well, I just send an email every four days. And I'm like, that's not enough. And they're like, but I feel like it's too much, and if I'm I'm being you know too annoying showing up in their inbox, I'm like, you have to. This is that proof. I'm gonna skip it to them because yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, that is partly why. So I have many consent-based strategies that I use for my newsletter, um, that I use for my entire business. But you know, number one is the way that people join my email list. And, you know, there's like there the this is like it's the law. Like GDPR regulations say you can't email anyone in the UK unless you have explicit consent to join the email list. It's very likely that North America will catch up. So, but the it, but for a lot of people, they're like, oh, it's complicated to like sell the free, get the freebie and then also get consent for the email list so they don't do it. But the thing I always remind people is like, it's for you as much as it is for them. So that in those moments where you're like, no, I don't know, like, should I send another email? Like, like, well, they they actually opted in for this email to hear from you and to hear about your offers. And these, like when you build in more consent, I find like it does really soften that voice that's like saying, You're too much, like, stop emailing so often.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, yeah. And it just helps to have a long-term view on selling your stuff, serving people, and profitability in general. Like, while having these strategies in the beginning might increase your lead cost some, as long as the business is healthy and converting leads into clients or customers further on down the funnel. And that may not be like the immediate thing or two that is sold in the email funnel, like it could be later on when you're launching somewhat regularly, or you're just having a myriad of offers that you're coming up with according to what like you understand the market needs. But as long as they're the business is healthy, then it's profitable later on. And you know, a dollar additional lead cost in the beginning doesn't break the business. And in fact, it lets the people let's call them quality email subscribers, but just people who actually really, really want to hear from you, they'll still get on the email list. And those are the ones we want to serve anyway, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, there we go. Tarzan, thank you for keeping in touch with me all these years, and thank you for sharing a very candid look into your ads and how your ads journey, your meta ads journey has been so far on this episode with me and the listeners.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks, Quaijo. I really I guess the last thing I'll say is like it's a very confusing world, internet marketing. And a lot of people wonder like, is this real or is this like all made up? And I'm just like, I act joined a cult. Oops. I, you know, I have like a great business. Like I could not be more grateful. You know, I work like 30 hours a week, I have a generous salary. I have a list with a list that by industry standards is quite small with my 10,000 subscribers. I have a small team, like I I get so much meaning out of my work. It's really hard. It's way harder than when I started in 2016. It's really hard, but it's so fucking worth it. I love this business. It's given back far more than it's taken. And yeah, even as it gets, it's you know, it's it's hard. And I still will encourage people because I really believe it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00:

I think things that are hard are worth doing if those things line up with our passion. And how cool of an opportunity. I mean, what you just said still sounds like the dream to me. 30 hours a week. Okay, I'm not communic, I'm not communic commuting, commuting 30 minutes, you know, to a office. I'm at home, you know. I can be present, more present for like family, like and it's lined up with your passion. Of course it's hard. We're super privileged to be doing what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, we are. We are. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So, dear listener, it's been another episode until the next time that you hear from me or see me. Take care, be blessed, and I'll see you in the next one. Bye.

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Kwadwo Sampany-Kessie

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