008: New Year Special - The Mother Wound with Eva Serra

I am so grateful to have been able to sit down with Eva Serra in this special Mother-Daughter episode. Together we dove deep into the personal and collective wounding that many of us hold around our biological and archetypal mothers. What do you keep and what do you reject from what was given to you? How do you forge your own path when it appears that one has been set out for you?  We discuss the lifelong work of making peace with our internal and external mother,  and break down ways of relating as mothers and as children so that neither one has to be right or wrong. I hope you enjoy this very insightful and potent episode as much as I did!

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Transcript

Elisabeth  0:04  
Welcome to the authentic feminine ecstasy podcast, a place where we explore our innate intimate freedom. And this episode is very special to me, as I'm going to be interviewing my daughter, Eva, who's been here with us on this winter solstice. And who best to talk about issues of individuation love freedom that we all struggle with, especially when we unite with our families. And we see the struggle that that can bring us. So I like to welcome Eva who is currently lives in London, and has a private practice as a therapist. And she's currently doing a master on child adolescent psychotherapy. So welcome ever to this podcast. And my first question to you is, what makes you feel closest to your feminine wisdom?

Eva  1:16  
Hello, thank you for inviting me. And introducing me. What a question. So I personally feel that right now, at this point in my life, what makes me closest to my innate feminine wisdom was actually the internal marriage of the masculine and feminine within myself. So that's how I kind of have found it right now. And from that marriage, marriage than the inner masculine can really hold and support, the creativity, the chaos, the wisdom, the intuition, the wildness, and he can contain it for her, so to speak. That's where I'm at right now. And that's been huge, because before, I didn't realise that was the case. So actually, yeah, it's the marriage that in a marriage, that's happened within my being at the moment.

Elisabeth  2:22  
Wow, that's powerful response. As I feel that we are walking all of us together towards this question of external relationships that seems to be so fragile, and quickly fall apart and possibility of coming to another step of intimacy within ourselves. And you're talking about in a marriage, that's fascinating, and I would love to interview you another time on that topic. But this time, we're going to be focusing on the mother archetype and mothering and the different needs of Mother Child and perceptions that we have, and take them beyond, one is right, and the other one is wrong. And just as you know, I grew up in an environment in which my mother was very spiritual. And I can see a lot of the gifts I received from that. And the wealth, it brought me to have a confidence in meeting the unknown, the bigger picture. And at the same time, there was a whole trait, of behaviours, and ways of being for example, her relationship with her emotions are difficulty to listen to other than exasperated me. And as a child, I suffered that. And even though I've done years of therapy, I have this tendency within me. And so I want to, as a mother, I want to ask you here, how did you favour with all of that? What's your experience? What do you keep and what do you reject from what was given to you?

Eva  4:09  
Yeah, I mean, I think as you grew up, as everyone grows up, and as I grew up, in, in more of an alternative village and had an alternative school, and I was kind of surrounded by children, similarly, who wanted to reject all of that, to be honest, so I guess it's only when you leave or when you really sever or separate that you can find who you truly are. I think the rebellion or the letting go is a vital step. That's why in many cultures, we have initiations to, to kind of put the, the adolescent outside, fight the lion or whatever. To then find themselves and they they returned as a changed being. So I guess, growing up with it, yeah, I was I was very anti it all. And that I was also a very open, loving, sweet child. So it was a bit confusing. So on one hand, I could see that my parents were open and loving, and had a lot of wisdom of the hand. I found it overwhelming and Yeah, could be compared to being raised in a religious family almost, you know, there was there was a, there was a way of being and you need to find your own way through it. So then you can spend many years doing the opposite, you know, you can do spend many years running away from that soul or that. Yeah, I didn't even buy eco friendly washing powder for many years, just just to be as far away as possible. And I was with someone who was Muslim. And for 10 years, so I, yeah, went as far away as possible. And then I guess as soon as you realise that you're far, far enough away, then you can revisit and come home and visit mom, the inner mother. Because also the difference between your internal mother that you've integrated in the actual mother, so the mother that I believe that I, that I saw, and the mother that who was there, and it's a different thing. So I had to kind of deal with the one I integrated to then be able to meet you.

Elisabeth  6:50  
Wow, that's, that's impressive for you to talk about this, because the question of the internalised mother, and the one that is outside you is two different characters. And we confuse that. And sometimes we need to bash unfortunately, the external mother, to actually realise that what you're fighting is your own internalised mother, which is your experience of being raised by her. And to have that understanding and that separation, that's already huge. And I mean, as you know, my work is partly dedicated to this basic relating in in women. And it begins with the mother and to be able to make peace with the outer mother is key for our continued developing our feminine wisdom. So I would like to know more specific, although you're giving us the idea that you had to reject in order to return. How did you forge your own path to something that you already felt that was you would align with that was already set for you? How did you create your own individual path within it?

Eva  8:13  
Well, I think you just said a really, really interesting thing, then use it said many interesting things actually, there now I feel that there's many different roads, we go down. So first, I want to just respond quickly to what you just said about the internal and external mother, which is a really, really useful thing to actually share. I think in this podcast is the idea of, as an infant, we do obviously internalise the mother that we're seeing, but it is also initially from because we are one completely so you're in, you're not separate from the mother at all. And so we have to integrate part that is bad. Otherwise, we are bad. So she has to be bad. Because we can't possibly, yeah, it's it's, it's necessary. And if she is really bad, if we do have a mother that's really, really bad, then we can't possibly say that she is all bad. So even the to the badness has to be divided into Okay, and not too bad and really, really bad. So yeah, cuz it's like, it's like annihilation. If we don't have a mother, you know, we need them. We need her mother. So just that to that point, that's really beautiful. How you said it? Yeah, the internal and external getting to that point. And I think that I don't think I'm at that point. I think there is still more to go. I don't think I'm quite there.

Elisabeth  9:45  
Can I ask you Sorry, what, what would it be mean being there? What is the point or do you feel you're not?

Eva  9:51  
I think it would be there would be for example, I'm gonna go back to your other question in a moment. Sorry about the wait... So going back to an example of the mother and being able to fully be able to be with your mother without completely getting lost or identified with their internal mother that you've internalised, I think, would probably be a full lifetime's worth of work to be honest. Because how can you possibly separate yourself from something that was you one point, you know? So I think being more there would be allowing myself to be me and not being scared of disappearing. Disappearing, when being with my mother, with with yourself. So, for example, when we're meditating outside, and you said, oh, let's do the heart meditation, I didn't want to, because I didn't want to lose myself, in you. I'd rather not do that and meditate on my own, but still doing it with you, I still need that separateness. And if you have a, and it's hard to really admit that it's fully you, who is experiencing that, because it's easier to be like, Oh, no, you're engolfing, or you're too much, or you're too big, because actually, no one is too big or too small. It's just a perception of yourself, isn't it feeling smaller or larger or whatever?

Elisabeth  11:33  
Wow, I mean, there is so much in this. 

Eva  11:36  
I know.

Elisabeth  11:36  
And I feel that I would love to do another podcast on on some of the themes that are coming. Because I feel right now in this times this healing with our Earth mother, and it's essential. So and key to that is healing with our biological mother. So that we can also return to Gaia, you know, the concept of Gaia of embracing the, the big world, the mother of us all. And and also when you said I'm not quite there yet, it made me realise that my relationship with my mother, which in the question I wanted to say, I felt I had it under control, after years of therapy, and all my deep journey I've done and she is a spiritual woman. And only recently in the last few years, I began to have tremendous irritation with her. And so much reaction, being with her and not being able to listen to what you had to say I felt oppressed, I felt repressed, I felt everything that was negative inside me. So of course, we don't want to be with people that bring out the worst in us. But it was my mother, and she still is. And so you what you just answered right now it was it's really helpful. Because yeah, it's taken me a lifetime, and I had different stops along the way. And when I thought I got there, because I feel very bonded with the archetypal mother. And I think how can I have issues with my biological mother all because she's like these, everybody has issues with her. I'm not the only one, you know, blame, blame, blame. But actually, it's about what you just said, it's about me not loving or embracing that, which is me, that is inside her. And I see it in me. And as you know, recently, I've just something's happened and event has happened in my life. That's helped me to separate that more. 

Elisabeth  13:40  
And the other day, I just like to share this because it was so rich, you brought us to my mother, and you request it to her and to me to sit in a circle and meditate together. And the experience you had. Can I share this? The experience you had you felt this triangle that was bouncing in your solar plexus between the three of us which was white. And you said that was because you feel my mother and me carry more power, more fire in the centre. And I experienced a black triangle between the three of us, which is this difficulty of in the generation of my mother line of really being soft in the heart. And so that was that was a massive step. And as you said, how rare it is than a grandmother, the mother and a daughter three generations sitting together in silence for a good length of time. 

Eva  14:44  
And just for the listeners, just to confirm that it was still everyone having a very different experience in that triangle and there was still all the mother grandmother daughter dynamics at play. Even even in that beautiful moment, and that's really important to remember that it doesn't have to all be shiny, I guess, isn't it? 

Elisabeth  15:07  
Yes, yes, yes. So that was really useful. Actually, I feel like you're, you're considering all the experience you have on this field. You just brought me a gift right now and understanding my lifelong path with my mother. And feeling like I've got it, and then I feel I lost it again, etc. So going back to my other question, which is, how did you forge this path? For yourself, you know, how did you find your way back home? After rejecting?

Eva  15:47  
I think forging my own path was having to go as far away as possible. And even if it was returning to the therapy world, it was quite in a conventional way of working for the NHS, and tried to slot into kind of more academic work. And then I realised how much I didn't fit. Epically didn't fit. And still don't fit, and I'm having to my last year of my master's, should have been for years. And I'm almost thinking do I continue, even though it's one year left. Because I now feel that what I had to offer, what I have to offer is different, and it doesn't fit in that kind of realm, in the academic realm, and I've kind of returned, but I think it's vital to have that understanding of research of the backstory before you just you can't just merge with mother or whoever your culture and, and continue because that's just being naive in the journey, isn't it, you do need to go away to explore, to find out, and then to come back home. So how I forged it was by just chucking it all away, and then refinding it. 

Eva  17:16  
And it sadness there, actually, because it was I think it was only like, last year, I went to Steiner School, which is full of Creative Arts kind of school. And I work with children. And I realised that all the toys I had were plastic. And I thought, Gosh, why would I do that? When I know that I have a resource I just decided not to use and just turn off. I went to the garden, I took all the pine cones, bits and bobs for the for the sand tray. So yeah, I think that is that is the answer you're looking for. Is there more question around that?

Elisabeth  17:58  
Well, yes, it's this concept about the rejection and what we reject and what we embrace. And the ways we do that. And sometimes it can be very destructive ways, as you said, when you said as far away as possible, and how many mothers we feel like we've nurtured cared for this child. And then we find somebody that totally rejects us. That's devastating. For a mother, that's been the good enough mother, yeah? And to for that is vital. So if you love this child, you can't expect them to love you back. In the same way that you love them. It's impossible, you planted something in them, and that will grow and they may share it with others. But it's not a tit for tat kind of situation. So this rejection in the perception of the mother is the freedom of the child and finding that path. So for mothers to understand that rather than going into their inherited wound, which is "I'm not loved. I've given all this love, after all I've done for this child." You know, so many mothers don't say it but feel it. "I've given everything and she is or he is dot dot dot," you hear among women? Yeah. And it's like, No, my child is doing what he she needs to do. And even if it seems extreme, and to trust that what you've planted, will be fallen, fallen in fertile soil, and he would have its own unique expression. And this is what I'm hearing from you in the sand trays. You know, it's like you're bringing your own gift and I'm sure in the schools that you're working they think Wow. Why buy plastic toys, you know, you bring a revolutionary concept just in the tray. Maybe, you know.

Eva  19:54  
That's a really good point what you just said about the planting seed in fact soil and sometimes you plant a seed and it's not in fertile soil in there, there's such a grief and a letting go for a mother when they planted something and it's not come to fruition as well because actually the souls journey is unique and potentially that child will not show anything of what you've planted or, in fact, just because of the personality difference or whatever, they they might not even be still in contact because of a very superficial thing. Like, I don't want to hang up my parents because we don't get on or we don't you know, and, and you the parent might have been there very very much for their child. 

Eva  20:40  
So yeah, it's really really hard for mothers and feshie especially because I do infant observation and observe mothers giving everything can it does seem exhausting. And really, honestly, I think our biology makes her baby to the reality is quite horrific. I mean, it's probably beautiful, it aspects of it too. There's aspects that are beautiful but at the same time, you know, it's your whole life is removed from you. So you have to just be at home your partner's often working, you're alone with this child, or two children. You're literally everything for them from you know, you have to feed them every time they want food, anything is wrong, they're crying at the head can't even be solid for for ages. So you have to you know, continue to propping up this little being and they're pooing and you've got to love their poo, you've got a lot you've got to have enough self love to be able to give all this love imagine if you haven't been loved and then you've got this tiny being needing everything from you. And this is how child abuse happens. You know, it's just I can't I can't I can't be there. This is a demon I'm looking at this is this is hell I'm looking at this as a this is not a child and lots of babies die because you know, it's too much. That's taking different turn, but just yeah, it's a really really difficult job and at least be a doctor be a lawyer give me grandchildren you know at least do something for me after everything I've done for you. That's why many cultures it is like that they are just kind of money in the bank children's get five or six one or two die, you know, and the rest at least they your pension. And then now we don't have that less and less. We don't have them as a pension. Then what are they for at least to give you love that can be at least like a dog? Yeah, so I get I get it. And I do feel sorry for you sometimes. Because it looks like you're not getting grandchildren. Yeah, I do. I do. They are there is an amazing thing about children. I love working with them. But then giving them back is that is the wonderful bit, you know, at the end.

Elisabeth  23:08  
iWell, I think you're bringing now very revolutionary concept which is revealing the other side of mothering because we are trained to believe there's no matter the love, like the mother's love and mother's loved it and is the last thing for a woman is to be a mother. This is all been kind of drummed into us, you know, like, even through Christianity, and the abortion is bad and all of that. And I know as a mother that is lived in communities, which are a little bit more honest. And in my work with women, that every mother and that might seem really shocking here has seeded resentment and anger and profound pain about what's happened to her and her life. Because she was as free as she was. And then she met someone, she had a sexual experience. And lo and behold, her life is upside down, not just for a few months, but for years. And then it's just different stages, you know, you're talking about the head, but then it goes into different and it doesn't end. And you can say well it ends when the child is 20 No, it doesn't. It never ever ends. You never stop being a parent, even if you disconnect from your children because you will live with your guilt and with your sorrow inside and there will always be inside you. And scientifically has been proven that when the baby is born, some of the cells of the baby and the genetic of the baby is implanted in mother's brain. So when the child is in pain, the mother feels that pain and that's forever long. And I have experienced that we can be in denial of that. So I just want to say that what in essence, what you're bringing here, it's the downside of the romantic side presented of motherhood is the fulfilment of a woman. And we all know, we don't talk about it. It's like childbirth, we forget about it. And, you know, I know childbirth, feel free from fear can be a wonderful experience. But for most of us, it was the most oh my god, tearing experience, physical pain of our lives. And, and that's another obviously conversation and podcast, which I love to have with women who are dedicated to birth and pain, free birth, and all of the new insights that are coming as to why we birth with so much pain. 

Eva  25:49  
Actually, just because I'm the baby, I feel like I should bring the babies perspective too quickly. Just very quickly, that in all, that experience of the mother's head, the resentment in the heart was always there, and the pain of the birth and that the Pleasure, pleasure birth, and the relaxed birth is all about the birth and the mother and actually, the infant is breastfeeding. And, and drinking in the milk of that resentment, and the compensation of that resentment, or compensation to for that resentment, and, and the child is then in the birth canal. You know, while they say Groff says as neither, obviously, when you when you have anxiety, and you're pregnant, it can feel for the infant like it's being poisoned, because the chemicals that are going on in the body getting fed into the infant. And then when you're born, it's how it's like the most being worked birth into separation into into a world where the mother is scared, is terrified or having a pleasurable experience even is still that all about their experience. So you are completely having to gel and mould and social being you have to match belong to survive. It's very became outgoing. No, I don't want to have a close friend of experiences that have been really traumatic for me, or this is, you know, out of oceanic oneness, no thanks. It's just, the mother protect now joins me they wouldn't be that love that bond, that initial thing. So immediately, this other being is having to completely bond with, with its mother, and then is the process of individuating, but with the fear of losing your mother. Because you don't know if she'll, if you're not the same as her if you'll lose her love, you know, so it's terrifying. But they have to individuate otherwise there won't be an individual being and live a life of suffering. 

Elisabeth  27:58  
And I was just thinking before we did this podcast, because sometimes I've been I was aware that we were going to put this time aside, to have this conversation, that all these people that you see in the cities are living in the streets to do and I witnessed the other day and and all these people who live lives, which are on the edge of self destruction. And what comes to me is the lack of mother, that's that's there inside them. And what's happened to the mother of us all, so are we talking about, you've been sharing experiences that the good enough mothering, but you briefly talked about, you know, the child having to the sort of really inadequate Mother, how do we survive that and then we are compelled to alive of self destruction because without the mother, we are in a state of fear, hopelessness, anxiety and around. So it's, it's a big, it's a big conversation we're having here and it takes me back to my first podcast on the earth, which is patriarchy and the distitution of the mother.

Eva  29:18  
I was actually thinking it takes me back to all your work in relation to how can a mother possibly be good enough when when, you know, they have never experienced it and they're not in a society? Well, female or feminine is very different femininity and, you know, feminine essence than men as well. This women can only give birth so I'm trying to be careful here. How I speak and say this, but a lot of women hold a lot of feminine. So the feminine energy is so not included into it in how we study. And that's why I'm not fitting into my masters. Because I don't study, I don't write in the way that they want me to. So there's kind of specific way of being women don't fit into it. If they hold a lot of feminine anyway, so then they have to be more masculine. And then they have to give birth because they have a womb, and they have a child. And and of course, they're not going to be good enough. Of course, they're not going to pass on this grounded rooted mother because the mother has been completely erased and abused. So that that's all your work, isn't it?

Elisabeth  30:35  
Yeah, yeah.

Eva  30:37  
It's impossible, almost.

Elisabeth  30:39  
Yeah, I mean, one thing just to say, in that effect, the domino effect of the disempowerment of the feminine that disclaiming the power of the wisdom of the feminine and as a whole, and we're talking about the mother archetype, but let's not forget that within the mother archetype, that is, the warrior, the lover, and the shaman is not just one. And because we have fragmented as women, you can see in your friends and community at large, you have women that they are the mother, and those women that with the breast and the baskets, and they're always feeding everyone, and you have the women which they don't want to be mothers, and they're all it's hard in the fight, and we fragment and then you have the lovers, which is the sort of women that are always into seduction, or we have those women which are more shamana that deal with the air and they are always transending and up there and wanting to do card readings or whatever. And, and it's like we in that is all the mother, you see, the mother is all the mother that can you know, a mother connected is not just feeding her child, if somebody comes that doesn't have the right vibration and wants to touch her child, she just puts a boundary, there would be no sexual abuse. Let's face it. If a mother had worrier, that would be because the mother will be right there and is one of the gifts of Mother is the protector is the warrior about a woman without fire cant protect and put boundaries. She's afraid. 

Eva  32:06  
I'm worried here to blame mother more, or actually in that sentence. 

Elisabeth  32:11  
Oh okay

Eva  32:12  
Yeah, so just just to be careful, because actually, there is lots of other contradicting energies, and you could go to school and be abused. And you can go, 

Elisabeth  32:22  
Yeah, yes, of course. 

Eva  32:24  
I think I think it's more than if women had warrior. I think it's the whole society was different.

Elisabeth  32:29  
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm just saying that within ourselves, we don't have those four faces..

Eva  32:34  
Yeah that's important. 

Elisabeth  32:35  
Within our faith within ourselves we;re fragmented and according to our inheritance, we have, you can save your friends, which which one is more, but which is like you're talking about the inner marriage. So I go back to the beginning, you're talking about uniting things within yourself. And that's how you find your wisdom. So I know that we're talking about the effects and the impact of the mothering. And I'm rooting it to the lack of Mother archetype in the psyche. So that mother can only be the good enough mother but can't anchor us because she's not individuated herself. So she carries this contamination that we all experience in Christmas when we meet our family especially. Or any other time of the year. But that's a time that we spend a lot of time together, you know, family relatives. So what I'm saying is that this, this contamination is what was impacting us in this natural process of the child finding its own path, and its freedom within a love container. And just saying that, that mother woman that I'm talking about would be the union a woman. And I'm not going to be talking about men now because that would be also the same thing. But that's we're focusing on the on the mother womb bearer. Its mother archetype is a woman that holds mother lover warrior shaman means that she can be lovely, tender, nourishing, visionary, intuitive, and can place her boundaries and be sensual. That to find all of that within ourselves is something that is a path for each one to discover. And yes, I am passionate about that.

Eva  34:23  
And that's why there is ts struggle when mother gets pregnant, because then suddenly she has to let go of those different archetypes and elements herself that can be very upsetting. 

Elisabeth  34:45  
Eva, I feel like this is my last question for you today and definitely I would like to receive more of you or wisdom. But practically speaking and considering your training, what would be your advice that you would give to mothers given all we've said to mothers today?

Eva  35:14  
Well to mothers today, I think my main thing that I do give is, there's two things. So one thing is I'm laughing because I can see him other in my head who I said this to. One thing is, boundaries contain a safe container and boundaries. And the second thing is about not trying to be too good to not being not trying to to good enough mother is a very dangerous thing. It doesn't allow the child to grow their sense of self. 

Eva  35:46  
And which means in practical terms, like saying, Oh, I got it wrong. Oh, mommy's really got it wrong. Like, she didn't get the right cereal. That's really well, that's maybe more boundaries, actually. Because they should just eat the cereal, if it's healthy. Yeah, so I mean, something about like, Mommy got it really wrong. Like, I know, when you're playing with your child, and you got a little car in your hand and, and the child's like, Oh, Mommy, look, it's going up, up, up. And you're like, oh, like a plane? And the child goes, no, not like a plane, like a bird. And then you go, Oh, hey, like a bird that actually remotely going with the flow of the child. So like, is that go all that's a slimy slug on your hand? You say something like, oh, how does that slug feel on your hand. So really allowing the sense of self of the child to develop? Because their opinion, their belief system, their viewpoint? And another one, that's number three. So the second one about I'm trying to give you an example for the idea of I think your mom, you can maybe help me with an example of the two good mother? Yes. How would you say I got it wrong? And what kind of example would you give?

Elisabeth  37:08  
Well what I was thinking about the all too good mother is the anxious mother that wants to be all things at all times for her child. So her child is hungry, right? And the child is beginning to show signs of that. And she's already preheated pre everything stops everything and she's having a conversation. She's got to go somewhere and her life stop standstill, because her babies is gone. And he just makes the slight first sound, or the that so the mother is ahead of the needs of the child. Of course, the child needs to have their needs met. But all too good mother. It's engulfing. Like for example, in in natural births, the baby's born and you let the baby crawl to the breast. You don't drag the baby to the breast. 

Eva  38:00  
To their will, yeah.

Elisabeth  38:00  
Ueah, their will for the survival, their will for their choice, their will for everything. And I myself, I know that closely to the bone, because I felt I was my experience of mothering was my one more of abandoning mother, and if anything, and I've noticed Well, in my work with other women, we tend to be abandoning, and golfing or we switch between the two. And I've been more of an engulfing mother, especially with my firstborn, that any need he had, I had to run and be there. 

Eva  38:32  
And then the sense of self they need to develop in a more harsh way. And that's why they disappear or go further away. Because they need to separate more to kind of cut the umbilical thing to remove themselves from the kind of suffocation.

Elisabeth  38:45  
Yes, yeah, so the advice that you're giving them is not to be the old to good mother.

Eva  38:51  
So there's boundaries and listening to their needs. So with their perception of their experience, and also, a specific thing is saying, Oh, I got it wrong. So admitting fault. Admitting that you're not the perfect oracle that actually it's okay to get it wrong, because they learn to integrate that in themselves, okay. It's okay for me to get it wrong. It's okay for me to mess up or as long as I own it.

Elisabeth  39:21  
So, in this in these comments you've made, you're really bringing through the idea or the perspective of authenticity from the mother, and from the beginning, giving them their individuation so that the child will have to work less hard at claiming their freedom. So, I would like to you to talk to us a little bit about what would be your advice to daughters and sons to have this loving relationship that they longed to have with their externalmother, and so that that inner relationship with a internalised mother can be on their side. So what would you say that these children can do to facilitate that, that that meeting?

Eva  40:15  
Yeah, I think and this is why I think child therapy can be useful. Because if you're little, and you go home and you start acting, maybe is it because you've internalised the therapist as another adult within yourself. And you start acting in that way back at home, it can inspire the parents to change if they're open, and if they're ready. And if you work with a parent as well, if they're open, if they're ready. But if you are an adult, which probably are listening to this, like, I'd say, 16 Plus, even, or, yeah, and nowadays, and you, 16 Just feels quite young, but I think maybe probably 16 plus. And you want to have better relationship with your mom. Wow, you're very mature. One, and that in itself is incredible. It depends what way it's coming from, if it's coming from a need, because you don't feel like you're enough. And you always feel not that you're not good enough, and actually, you just need her approval, then I would probably recommend going to therapy and killing her in therapy, letting go of her not not, you know, to sort of totally be free and see all the aspects of yourself in relation to her. And if you want it to prove to her that you are right and she was wrong. Again, therapy to find the the maybe the small positive that there might be in her or the things of her that you see in yourself to accept the parts of her in you, that may be rejected to them deeper self love in that. And if she's really open to relate with you, then it's about just taking full responsibility for your experience and your emotions when you do enter dialogue with her, I'd imagine. Yeah, I'm in my mind, I'm thinking of more destructive relationships, I think.

Elisabeth  42:18  
Just as you said that, because that was my experience of you. And these days, and every moment that there's been what we found that there was some conditioning of, you know, inherited conditioning of the distorted mothering child dynamic that arose, the way we listen to each other, our own unique experience, what he brought was something bigger than the sum of its parts of the you and I a wisdom for each one of us that made us grow, rather than solving the conflict. That wasn't the point. The point is the wealth that we both got separately and we work with both said, Wow, what an insight. And that was because of the way which each one of us did not blame and was willing to listen to the experience of the other because we're coming from opposite ends. And so with that, I feel I like to bring our meeting an our inquiry into this ocean like subject. And I like to really from the bottom of my heart, because it's the first time that we do something like this, I express my gratitude and I had the privilege to just scratch the surface of the wisdom that I know is there. And I feel like a grateful I feel touched. And I feel loved in your becoming the woman that you are. And so with a lot of joy, I thank you for this experience.

Eva  44:00  
Thank you very much for inviting me here today. And thank you very much for being such a wonderful mum. These last few days I really needed it. So thank you and feeding me so well. Thank you.