How to Live
A podcast that explores ways to live a good life - thrive at work and in life, connect with a deeper purpose, strengthen relationships, and fulfil potential. Creator and Host Sharad Lal is an entrepreneur, keynote speaker and coach who works with leading organisations like Google, Unilever, J&J, P&G; having supported over 20,000 people in discovering their potential and purpose.
How to Live
#096 Networking that actually feels good with Ryan Lim
Be interested, not interesting.
𝐈𝐧 𝐧𝐞𝐭𝐰𝐨𝐫𝐤𝐢𝐧𝐠, 𝐛𝐞𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐬 𝐞𝐱𝐡𝐚𝐮𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠. 𝐁𝐞𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐢𝐧𝐭𝐞𝐫𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐞𝐝 𝐢𝐬 𝐜𝐨𝐧𝐧𝐞𝐜𝐭𝐢𝐧𝐠.
Most high performers approach networking like a performance.
Say something clever. Be impressive. Stand out.
But being interesting takes energy. It puts pressure on you.
And it often keeps things at the surface.
There's a better way: Be interested instead.
Ask thoughtful questions. Listen deeply.
Let others do what they love most - talk about themselves.
It's lighter. It's more human.
And it builds real trust. The kind that leads to long-term relationships, not short-term transactions.
🎙️ This shift from performing to connecting is exactly what Ryan Lim, and I dive into in the latest How to Live episode. Ryan's the bestselling author of The Business of Networking, No 1 on Strait Times, and he shares why introverts often make the best networkers, and why curiosity is your greatest tool.
Buy Ryan's Book here - https://singapore.kinokuniya.com/bw/9789819423323
Get the first chapter free - https://bit.ly/BizNetworkChp1
Shownotes
https://howtolive.life/episode/096-networking-that-actually-feels-good-with-ryan-lim
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Sharad Lal: Hi, everyone. Welcome to "How to Live," a podcast that explores ways to live a good life. I'm your host, Sharad Lal. This is episode . How do you build a powerful network? Not by collecting business cards, but by forming genuine relationships. In this episode, I speak with Ryan Lim, bestselling author of The Business of Networking, which has topped the charts in The Straits Times. Ryan is the founding partner of QED, a leading corporate think tank that convenes Asia's top C-suite leaders and board directors. Ryan busts myths about networking, shares how introverts can thrive in this space, and explains why relationships, not transactions, are the real currency. Thank you again for supporting the "How to Live" podcast. We are ranked in the top 3% of all podcasts globally with listeners in 140 countries. Thank you. Now here's the conversation with Ryan Lim. Hi, Ryan. Good morning.
Ryan Lim: Hey, good morning.
Sharad Lal: Welcome to the "How to Live" podcast.It's so good to have you here in the studio.
Ryan Lim: Thanks for having me.
Sharad Lal: So, Ryan, you wrote this book, The Business of Networking – wonderful book. What made you write this book?
Ryan Lim: Oh, you make it sound like there's, like, the moon and stars are all aligned and I know what to do. I was having a nice luncheon with my board advisor and this topic suddenly came up. She mentioned that, "No, Ryan, could you perhaps tell people the method to this madness that you have made successful?" And then I was a bit puzzled. I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Well, you've built up a fantastic network of C-suites and board directors, and these are not easy people to bring together, let alone manage them to come as a community. How did you do it? Could you put it into a, well, as we've all Singaporeans, right?We like to talk about frameworks or a method to this madness."And I said, "Okay, let me have a stab at it."So, throughout the years, what I did was that I started to capture all my notes – my successes, my failures, what I liked about it, what I disliked about it, what was repeatable, so that if anybody else picks it up and maybe put it into action for their own personal benefit or for the benefit of others.So that's how it came about.Then when we were writing this, we were saying that, "What style do we want to write?" I have a very short attention span, so I wrote it like a Korean drama rather than a textbook manual, and no secrets here.I enjoy Korean drama, the way they hook you in and then keep you on to watch the next episode.I wanted that, that is as good as I would like to read it.Enjoy like a Korean drama or a Chinese drama these days, and enjoy it the way it should be with the ability to bring across very deep messages and core lessons in an enjoyable format. So it was written in that style with that intent in mind.
Sharad Lal: I love that, Ryan. You said, "Hmm, I don't want to put them as frameworks. Let me use the essence of the knowledge there and make it into Korean drama-style stories." So they're engaging.
Ryan Lim: When it's relatable, it becomes more memorable. When it becomes more memorable, people put that easily into action or easier, not easily, right? Easier into action as well. Otherwise, it's a great idea and that's it. It dies there. Right?
Sharad Lal: Absolutely. That's the power of storytelling, so thank you for doing that. Ryan, I know you were a closet introvert, or you still maybe a closet.
Ryan Lim: I still am. Still, you're still a closet introvert.
Sharad Lal: And you've created a networking company and written a book on networking.So you're a master networker despite being a closet introvert. How did that happen?
Ryan Lim: I need to explain myself. What is a closet introvert? I am quite comfortable with people around me on a normal day basis, even for work or in any other professional context, no problem. But what I mean by a closet introvert means that I tend to like to be alone without talking to anyone or seeing anyone to recharge. So if you ask yourself, "How do you recharge after a long, hard day?" Some people like to meet up and have drinks with friends. I'm on the complete opposite end of the spectrum. I cannot talk to anyone. That's how I recharge my energy because it helps me process my day, be comfortable, be myself for a while without having to be in touch with anything else. So let me realign myself. Okay. And then come back out again. It takes time and effort to actually connect with people at a deeper level. As a result, it does sap a lot of your energy, time, brain juice, all one, to be able to be really connected to that individual or that person. And as a result, requires you to recharge at the end of the day. And that's why I would describe myself as a closet introvert. Now, that also means that I have a slightly different perspective when it comes to building and what I want out of this whole networking as an activity, for example. So I am able to understand it at a much deeper level rather than at a superficial level. And that helps me build and design that kind of community as well as the network of friends, colleagues, and people that I like to be around with. That forms up what we do at QED.
Sharad Lal: Absolutely. As you were talking, it just struck me, this closet introvert nature of yours has actually led to this unique style of networking that you have. Which is more sustainable, which is deep. And we are going to come to those principles. But one of the things that this does, this approach to networking, it busts a lot of myths. A lot of us have this misconception that networking should be X, Y, Z. Right? But according to your approach, maybe some of those things are not absolutely right. So if you can talk a little bit about some myths and misconceptions about networking.
Ryan Lim: The important one that I start off with is actually it is a quality game rather than a quantity game. I started off thinking that, "Well, let's meet up with as many people as possible." I would call it the shotgun approach. You shoot it and then it pellets everywhere hoping they hit something, something hit something, right? And hopefully that thing that you hit is valuable to you now, but that's not always so. You'll find that if you actually get to know someone, you realize whether this person that you have connected with needs your help, whether you can help them, and that's a very good start to the relationship. A network is not about transactions, it's about relations. You need to build a deeper understanding of the person that you're talking to, rather than just, "Hi, what's your name?" And that's it. Now, given the fact that most first interactions, you don't have a lot of time, but you should give enough airtime to the person that you're meeting to understand and know what the person is interested in or perhaps what this person comes from or where is the back, what's the background and what bugs this person? Why is the person standing in front of you right now? So with all this in place, then you are seeding the opportunity as the foundation for you to actually get to know that person a lot better as you move ahead. So that's one of those perception myths that we realize that bugs a lot of people. Now, if you understand that, that's a very good starting point. The other one is to take networking as an opportunity to meet people. Right? Like Sharad, I've, I've, I've met you, right? Interesting people as a potential opener, as an introduction to people that are interesting who are not within your current circle. To potentially become good friends or great friends, lifelong friends. Don't take it as "net-work." And if you treat it like work, you are not there to make friends. Right? The reality is that if you're just one contact, go Google. You get tons of contacts, but you want to make a relationship. You want to start a relationship, explore potential opportunities for relationship, then you don't treat it like work. You treat it like an opportunity to meet great friends. Who knows, right? This could be a lot more. Then it is not so draining, like you are treating it with work. And because you don't treat it like work, you enjoy them like friends. And when you enjoy them like friends, you realize that the things that you do, the things that you are looking for, the approach is completely different. And that's why we find that a lot of people suffer from thinking that, "Why am I not getting the results?" But it's because you're treating it as work. But if you are treating it like, "I'm looking for friends," my goodness, I mean, we are friends, right? We go for beers, we chit-chat. We don't always talk about, "No, just transactional stuff." "No, do you have a work opportunity?" We talk about everything. But we know each other. So when the time permits or the opportunity permits, that's where that magic happens of what we call the value of networking comes in. But you need to actually already establish that relationship before that even happens. So these are the two major ones: you need to treat quality before quantity. You need to then worry about the fact that you're not there to network, but you need to build a network of friends. Now, if you get that right, you are on the right track and on the right starting point.
Sharad Lal: So well put, Ryan. And I am guilty, like many others who go into networking in terms of quantity. "Let me get as many cards as possible." And as you were speaking, it struck me that that has two issues. One is it is not effective, second is not even fun. Whereas the other approach that you talked about where you're getting to know someone and you're not thinking about it as work, that is fun. You enjoy networking, you enjoy the process versus it being a hassle, and the results are better. Oh, yes.
Ryan Lim: It's enjoyable. It's not a chore. So that is the effectiveness that you will get to see. But you must also understand that the perspective of time. Now, if it's transaction, it's immediate, right? Just a couple seconds, couple days, you get something going. But when you're dealing with friendships, you're talking about years, decades in the making. So if you look at the horizon, suddenly your perspective of what networking should be or can be suddenly changes. It's not a one-off. If it's a transaction, if you're done, that's it. But with friends, even when there is nothing to be gained, you do help each other. So that's where the value of true networking is. If you have more friends, like I say, if you don't want to have an enemy or you want to destroy an enemy, make a friend. That's the way to do it.
Sharad Lal: Yeah. Oh, such good advice. That brings us to this core idea, and maybe I can just state it, you may have already said it, where it's relationships versus transactions. And as we try to break down this relationships element, a few things that I heard was listening well, so being curious about the person, asking questions, listening well. What are other ways in which it can be a little more relationship-oriented when you meet a new person versus transaction?
Ryan Lim: The way I've described it in the book is relations, not transactions. Mm-hmm. I, I, I've made that statement multiple times because you need to look at it as an opportunity to start a relationship with someone. So your question was, "How do we make it easier?" Because you, you notice that there's nothing natural when it comes to networking. There's a lot of effort required, sometimes preparation, sometimes learning how to shut up. Yes, I know that happens too. Learning how to be interested rather than interesting. Hmm. Now, if you are interested, that means you keep thinking about, "What should I be saying that resonates with you? What should I be saying that makes you interested and happy about me and thinks well of me?" But if you notice that the most interesting topic often is about asking the other party, "What's interesting about you?" "Tell us. I'm interested in you. You are an interesting person. I want to find out more about you." And then you realize that, hey, it's not so draining anymore. You don't have to do all the talking, and the person is enjoying themselves because they're talking about the most interesting topic ever: themselves. Right? Now, the value out of this is that you first, number one, you get to listen, you keep quiet. But of course, don't just become like a block of wood. You need to be what we call proactive listening, right? You need to understand that person. Be interested in that person as well. What is the person talking about? What's the person's motivation? What's this person's plans are, for example, dreams, fears, perspectives? All these takes effort too, by the way. Even though you're quiet, it does take effort too. Right? And it makes it more sustainable in terms of a conversation. It's a lot easier as well as to continue a conversation as well. Right? And I think one of the most magical words in any conversation that I would always advise anyone is, "Tell me more." Hmm. Just three words: "Tell me more." And it is one of those fantastic sustainers of conversation. And it is it gives you a treasure trove of information and also details about the person yet you are trying to understand. So that makes a lot easier for anyone dealing with a conversation for a person for the first time. You don't have to worry about, "Do we play golf together, right? Or do we game together?" No, you don't have to worry about that. You are there to listen. And that makes it a lot easier, right? So you don't have to fuss around what, how much extra preparation that you have. But of course, you don't just want it to be that person talking. You should also be able to prepare a little bit to talk about yourself too. Then it is a conversation. Think of it like a table tennis game. It goes back and forth a little bit, otherwise you get served and that's it. There's always one nil. You don't want that happening. It goes back and forth.
Sharad Lal: I love that. I love that. And I'm, again, processing as you're speaking. That framing of being interested versus being interesting, I think is huge. The last point that you brought up was interesting because sometimes I like to ask a lot of questions where I get curious and I want to know about a person, and then I realize I'm not giving anything about myself, which is like, you talk about one zero. How do you do that? Like maybe a person's really happy talking about themselves, but then. Do you now say, "Okay, I have done the same thing?" Like, I, I find that weird when I'm in that situation.
Ryan Lim: Okay. So some people tend to start talking about themselves and there is no end to this. I, I know, I know everyone loves to talk about themselves, right? But if you find that there is no opportunity, you could perhaps just say, "Oh, could I share a little bit about myself?" It is a question rather than a statement. It's "Oh yeah, sure." And then you, you find it's a lot easier to be able to share a little bit and then turn the spotlight back on the other party. Then that becomes a much, like you say, becomes more like a table tennis match.
Sharad Lal: Yeah. One of the other core ideas, which I found completely mind-opening that you'd shared is, "Network with people who want the best for you." Now, often when we think of networking, we are saying, "Alright, who can give me business? Who, who's an important person?" But you're saying the core principle that's sustainable that you've seen work is network with people who want the best for you. If you can talk about that.
Ryan Lim: Allow me to maybe add an additional perspective to this as well. It's not just to network with people who want the best for you. You should network with as many people as possible because there is no reasonable way to be able to tell at the first meeting that this person is good for you or what's the best for you. You should network with as many people as you can possibly can and still abide by those earlier general principles that I spoke about where you try to talk about relations rather than transactions. Now, at the initial get-go, you may not have the opportunity to realize whether this person wants the best for you, right? Most people will want to position themselves as, "I am the best friend of yours," or, "I'm the best contact you've ever met in this entire networking." So that's quite natural. But as time progresses and you interact with that individual, you start to get a sense of whether this person actually wants the best for you. So there are some telltale signs. I'm going to use my mother as a reference point, okay? My mother doesn't tell me all the stuff that I want to hear. In fact, very often she wants the best for me by telling me stuff that I don't want to hear. But I know deep down in my heart that it is really good for me. Now, whether or not I want to adopt it, that's another conversation. And by the way, no offense, my mom is fantastic. Lovely. So use the opportunity and the interactions that you have with the acquaintances that you've met through these networking opportunities to figure out whether the person, number one, respects you. Number two, it has a high level of integrity. Now, what I mean by that: respects you as an individual and your time. It works both ways, regardless of how important that person is, right? There's a bit of courtesy, but a respect for each other's time and the different starting points that we have. We are not all the same, right? You know, some people are rich, some people are not. Some people are hardworking. Well, some people prefer a more stoic lifestyle. Very different. But there must be respect that, well, we are different, but we are not better than each other. Hmm. That, that's one key thing. You can sense after a couple of iterations. The other one tends to be the folks that have a high level of integrity. Integrity means that the word is as good as an ironclad contract. Hmm. So if I'm going to say that I'm going to do it, you know, for a fact, with a very definite amount of certainty, high degree of certainty that it will be done. Now, of course, then you might mention, "Hey, Ryan, there might be times where that person can't deliver." So true, but a high integrity person would have told you that, "Hey, I can't do this. I can't meet the, the, the commitment I've made earlier. Let me make good of it." So this person is consistent, be it online, on-site, in almost all interactions. And there might be times where the person fumbles a little bit, but if you look at it generally consistent, right? Then you realize that, "Ah, this person's word can be trusted and becomes a trusted person." Now, if this trusted person tells you something that you don't want to hear or makes you cringe, for example, then you realize that this person may actually want the best for you, and it's for you to discover too. But I think those are very good starting points for you where there is mutual respect and high levels of integrity. These are good people that you can start exploring whether, well, is it an even longer-term fit? That's my advice for you.
Sharad Lal: I love that: integrity and mutual respect. And like you said, once the integrity is established, you know that even if they're saying things that you do not like, there's a truth to it. Yes. They're not trying to manipulate you and there's a truth to it, right?
Ryan Lim: You may not agree all the time. But the fact that you have to take them seriously, now, these are good people to keep in your network. Fantastic. Both in terms of internal networking as well as external networking. Now, when it comes to internal networking, I'm talking about people who are professionals who are working on their careers. You need to have internal sponsors. These people are your advocates who would sponsor your career path, who thinks well of you, and you need to be quite strategic about that. Which means they need to think and understand the lay of the land. Who are those people that can help you? And most of the time you realize that you need to invest in those relationships even before you need them. By the time you need them, it's too late. You need to invest way early, right? So it is just like farming. You need to sow very early because if when you're hungry and you start to sow, you'll be dead by then, right? Starved to death. With the external side, it's the same thing. But that one has a different objective rather than your personal career. It could be external opportunities for business, for your business, or for your company. So you need to invest ahead and sometimes there's no harm in paying it forward first. Hmm. Right? And, and sometimes I believe that by paying it forward, back to the original question that you have, whether or not it gives you an idea whether this person wants the best for you, if you pay forward, most good people would tend to reciprocate. Hmm. Right? In some form or other, you can feel it. You will know it along the way, but there are others out there. No, not hiding it here. There are takers, not givers. They're like what we call the black hole. Avoid those guys. You just give and it just disappears in there. Oh, they don't, no, they don't just give, they suck in more as well.
Sharad Lal: Yeah, that's such an interesting perspective. Maybe dig a little bit about both internal and external people to be strategic to identify them and one of the really good tools you mentioned was paying it forward and seeing how they react. How else do you know who could be strategic to you and where to invest in?
Ryan Lim: The internal lay of the land is something that you need to be very sensitive about and be aware of. Most of the time you need to understand who calls the shots. Yeah, right? If you're in an SME, most likely the boss. Yeah, right? Or the owner. In, if you are in the large corporate or a public service sector where organization is very large. It may not be the person always with the title, surprisingly, right? You, you realize this very quickly: who are the ones that everyone listens to in the room? But don't mistake it for what we call the hippo, the highest income person's opinion, right? HIPPO. You need to understand who's the one that calls the shot that promotes the teams and can make things move that could potentially be your ally in an organization that you belong to. It's easier to navigate because you are in it day in, day out, or at least five days a week at least, right? With that, you are able to map out who are the movers and shakers, who are the sponsors, who are the ones who can actually get you to the next level as well. It could be your immediate supervisor. It could be someone else who doesn't have the title, but has the ears of everyone. Map that out. You need to spend time and energy to map that out. Now with the external sponsors and supporters, now that's a lot harder. That one requires you to be more attuned to not only just within your industry, but also adjacent industries as well. So that means you should spend time going out. Rather than just, "If I do my work, they will recognize me." No, that doesn't happen. Nowhere in the world does that ever happen. Everyone is now attention deficit, who will have time to go and figure out who's the one that's done the work? Yeah, done the work, right? So don't let the work speak for itself. Rather, you need to sometimes amplify your work and then let people discover it by submitting what you've done. So that might be the best way for the external parties to also see, you know, what's your track record like, are you worth your time and effort as well?
Sharad Lal: That's such a key topic on amplifying your work. And of course, you can get it wrong sometimes, but just chest thumping all over the place, humble brags. But there could also be like, like an interesting way of doing it. What have you learned as a good way to amplify your work? A good way to humble brag, a good way to chest thump?
Ryan Lim: Okay. I, I've got two, two points to raise here. Okay. For humble bragging, I'd rather you brag rather than humble brag. Ah, so don't hide behind. So I, I, I'm going to brag that I've, I, I've recently achieved The Straits Times bestseller list for my book, Business of Networking.
Sharad Lal: Congratulations, Ryan.
Ryan Lim: That, that was a good plug-in there. Alright, so I, I'm not going to even hide it. I'm, I'm just bragging here. Right. I think that if you have genuinely good friends in your network that you've built up who wants the best for you, you've got an achievement that you are very happy about, share it. But don't forget that you are bragging. If you are aware of that, that sort of tones you down. You are letting people know what you're good at. But then for the rest of the time, please don't, you can't continuously brag your way all the way through. Now, in terms of doing it right, and I think the best way to always talk about it is to get others to talk about you rather than you talking about yourself. I, I find it a bit odd these days. There seems to be a trend going on and, and I think right now there's a bit of LinkedIn influencer bashing going on in the market that there is the own self-quote on self. Have you seen those? No, I haven't done it unfortunately. Wait, wait. They put a post and they quote themselves. I've not seen a Warren Buffett or any real thought leaders putting up thoughts that, "Boy, office." "Yeah, yeah, yeah." "I said it, therefore, now for." Right. Go. So those are a bit on the complete extreme, and that's an opinion I have. Like, "Oh my goodness, why are you quoting yourself?" The best and most effective way, and I think that has credibility, is to let others have the opportunity to brag about you. But you need to be very focused in what you're truly good at and not be shy about that. Two, I think the Asian context tends to be a bit more shy. There's this forced humility there. You say, "Oh, my work will speak for itself," kind of thing. So I think we are way past that. We need to let people know what we are good at and what is the major problem that we solve. Very often we talk about how great we are. "I won this award, I won that award." But what was that key problem that you solved? Talk about the problem statement, right, that you solved. And why is it that you are good at that, and why do you think that it works? And how many people you saved, helped, you know, because of what you've seen. The awards doesn't say anything as other, after the fact. But if you say that, "I've got a solution to this problem," my goodness, it is a nice way to brag about how great you are and to talk and share with the world what you're truly good at and how you can help others. Now that one, that kind of bragging I can take. Yeah.
Sharad Lal: So that's a useful thing because there's a problem out there that people are thinking about. You've found a way to make that a little better and you're putting it out there, right?
Ryan Lim: Like your, let's say, for example, I say that your podcast is awesome to listen to, right? That's, this is fantastic, but you help a lot of professional managers, executives out there solve a great problem that they are always stuck with, but may not have enough sounding boards to understand. And you bring all these great speakers, thought leaders into the room to actually help them dissect and deep dive in those problems to solve their problems. And that's your expertise. I, I, that's no bragging, but it's fantastic work that you're doing here.
Sharad Lal: Thank you very much, Ryan, for the problem. Thank you. How do you get other people to talk about you?
Ryan Lim: You need to have people know you and like you. Well, well, there, there are a lot of people who may know you, but if they don't like you, they'll never talk about you. But if they know you, they like you, and they trust you, the chances of them talking about it is fantastic. But you need to also, don't forget, ask. Very often we think, yes, you have to ask. That's a good, correct point. Ask them, "If you like what I do," you don't force-feed them like, "You gotta do it." Arm them with what you've got, right? I say, "Hey, if you like my work, it will mean the world to me. Could you kindly share or tell others about it?" And let them be. I know right now with the online world today, we track every day. It's not always possible. So because you've still got word of mouth in person, right? You can't track that. And that's the kind of skills that you need to develop as networking too. Sometimes you need to ask, but before you ask, give before you ask, right? So there is this particular sort of concept that I've shared in the book that talks about the value exchange. And the value exchange is not one for one. Three to one. Yeah, you give first. That's priority one. Second, you give more, but don't forget to ask. So we have the "give three, take one" kind of a concept. Give three times, then ask once. Then that's what we call the balancing act. So you must understand that it is not one to one when it comes to value exchange for networking.
Sharad Lal: Such a powerful point. So many beautiful insights in there. And I also love this thing of asking because quite often we might give, we might do something good, but we feel bad about asking. So either we don't ask at all, or we do it like you said, the other way, we ask and track and who's done it and not done it, and have a whole activity system and remove the humanness of just asking. So if we have that in between, just do things well, maybe twoX, threeX, and then ask and nudge. That could be a good approach.
Ryan Lim: I can also add a little bit about asking. Yes. So I think that's where, there's a challenge as to how people ask, right? Yeah. We find that we ask questions which are not specific, but generic, and that's the problem. So imagine, right? If you were to ask someone for a job opportunity or other opportunities out there and you kept it too generic. So if you think that there is a job out there, please let me know. That's so generic. What kind of a job? You know, what do you want? Do you want to be a scientist or a prompt engineer or AI engineer? What exactly do you want to be? It's too generic and the ask, it's very difficult because the amount of effort that the person that you asked needs to do in order to help you is a lot, and you've set up barriers for entries and a lot of speed bumps for yourself when it comes to asking. One of the advice that I can give all the listeners out there and anybody else here is that be as specific as you can be. So, for example, "I know that you are from company X, Y, Z, and they are looking for a prompt engineer and I'm quite good at it, and I think I might be a great candidate for you. Could you connect me with that person in that hiring manager of that department?" It's very specific, not like, "There is, is there a job?" Right? And it makes it a lot easier for that person to ask on your behalf. That makes it way more effective. Do the homework, make it as simple as easy as possible when it comes to the ask. Then you'll find that more people willing to help.
Sharad Lal: I love that. There's a similar principle in sales exactly that way: "Make it easier for someone to buy from you." Yes. And this is, "Make it easier for the person to help you and do the work." Like you said, "Do the work. Just make it easy for them." Ryan, you've shown us networking in a very different light, and there may be many people out there who are the old school networkers, multiple cards, multiple transactions. And if they, many of them would have loved what you said and they want to make a shift, what's a good way for them to get started, including me? I'm also one of those we talked about. I'm also looking at making a shift. What's a good way to get started?
Ryan Lim: I guess it's the perspective because the foundations that you have to understanding what networking truly is, will set the direction for you. So that's where you build on. On the other key concepts that we spoke about earlier, if you build on the wrong foundations, it will be wobbly. It can still stand, but it can also crumble. At the same time, you need firmer foundations and to understand what the true value and what networking truly is: it is relations before transactions. If you understand that, then that is a very strong and firm foundation that you can build upon. And when you build upon that, you, you find that that small minor change in interaction would really pay out as time goes by. So whatever time you think you got left in your career, and I think that we are all living longer, so we have much longer careers these days beyond just your professional career. Start changing right now, what your perspective and what you intend to get out of networking. There's a lot of value there. So I've, as I've mentioned earlier, that when it comes to networking, it's one of the most unnatural things ever. You've got to be intentional. You've got to be proactive. You've got to actually spend time, energy, follow-ups, get in touch with people. There's nothing natural about that. Natural is to sit down there and do nothing. By doing all these things, you actually set yourself up. When opportunity knocks, it's not that when you do this, you will have something happen immediately. You are doing it so that when opportunities, which you don't control, happens to you, you are ready. You've got very strong foundations already with that slight change in perspective, and then layer all the other lessons that you have from what you've seen, what you've experienced, or maybe perhaps if you can pick up some insights from my book, Business of Networking, even better still, that's where you actually build upon it and then become truly effective and enjoy their journey along the way. I've, I'm still enjoying myself, by the way.
Sharad Lal: We've come back to the fundamental, that building that foundation of relationship before transaction. And letting everything emerge from there. Yes. Thank you for sharing this wonderful message, Ryan. We will leave a link to your book on in the show notes. And Ryan also speaks in organizations and gives keynote notes. So in a lot of companies, you notice somebody just sent for networking and has to network. If that's your company, you can always look out for Ryan, bring him in, he can do a keynote and help everyone in the company network better. Anything else you'd like to say to the audience, Ryan?
Ryan Lim: Oh. Enjoy the journey. It is a journey, not a destination. So enjoy networking. Hope that you meet a very, very, very good number of true friends who want the best for you. And of course, please support the retail bookstores. Pick up a copy at Kinokuniya if you can.
Sharad Lal: Kinokuniya is the place to pick up a book. Let's keep it going. Thank you very much, Ryan, for your time. I wish you all the best in this wonderful message that you're spreading to the world.
Ryan Lim: Thank you so much.
